Are We a Cult

[ulyankee]

Hey all... I found this on the Forerunner's discussion forum (http://forerunner.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?p=343&sid=2d01c86ccab3fc2668f014bb06 7e3343) this morning. It's a discussion over whether former MCM/MSI/EN members critical of the movement(s) constitute a "cult."

Interestingly, the old CAN (Cult Awareness Network) came up in the discussion. CAN, and its forerunner, the Citizen's Freedom Foundation, was pretty vocal about MCM back in the day and CFF at one point distributed a letter of warning out to university administrators about MCM - that was in 1982. Scientology sued CAN out of existence in the 1990s - they now own the CAN name. In a strange twist of events, the old CAN files are now in UC Santa Barbara's archives as part of its American Religions Collection.

Anyway, this is pretty interesting. Are we a "cult?" I have to say that stating that former members of a controversial group are themselves a "cult" is new to me.

BTW, this is the text of the letter CFF (later CAN) distributed to universities in August, 1982:

We in Citizens Freedom Foundation (CFF) have learned that Maranatha Ministries of Gainesville, Florida is in the process of establishing a group on your campus. This group uses mind control techniques to recruit and hold members, as described in Chapter 22 of Dr. Robert Jay Lifton’s book, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism. Dr. Lifton is a Professor of Psychiatry at Yale University and is an expert on brainwashing and mind control. These are the same techniques that the Moonies, Hare Krishnas and other "religious cults" use. Enclosed are some documented cases of problems that students and parents have had with Maranatha Ministries. Also included is a "Statement of Covenant of the Maranatha Christian Church" that the members are asked to sign after they have been in the group for some time. This commitment indicates the degree of control the group exercises over its members.

Our purpose in writing to you is to warn you of the trouble that is coming to your campus. If you wish to obtain additional information about this group or other cults contact your local CFF group or the national office of CFF at P.O. Box 86, Hannacroix, NY 52087. It should be pointed out that Citizens Freedom Foundation is a national network of affiliates composed of volunteers whose function it is to educate the general public, media, government, clergy and mental health professionals of the dangers of destructive cults. It also provides support to families of members and to former members of destructive cults.

When this group applies for recognition on your campus they will state that a number of well known people endorse their activities. We suggest that you check with these people to see if they truly endorse them.

[lablady2]

Ulyankee: Nah, I'm not in a cult.

First of all, nobody has been very successful at telling me what to do and how to do it since 1982. Just ask my husband.

I'm not sending any money to a central authority or meeting any group of people at an arranged time. Just ask Factnet; I'm not sending them a dime either. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

Being in a cult requires energy. I've raised 3 kids and have 5 grandkids. I'm too tired to cook supper, so forget about me trying to whip up a group of senior citizens into some kind of militant fury.

[john_r_jones]

I'd use that on my strawberries...
I hear it's great fertilizer. Ul I've lost yer E-mail can I get you to ping (Johnrjo@bellsouth.net) me?
John

[annelewis]

From the Forerunner Message Board:
<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

There's a community on-line of individuals who's culture has an over-arching characteristic. This over-arching characteristic is that they have all been under the ministry of Maranatha Campus Ministries or under of the leaders of that now-defunct ministry. They all are negative about their experiences then and now. They all refuse to contact and request reconciliation with any of the leaders of this now-defunct ministry. (Emphasis added) They are a culture that is opposed to Every Nation churches since that is where many of the former Maranatha leaders and members find themselves.

They are the Every Nation Counter-Cult or "CONTRA EN" cult. What is their deal?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I've registered to respond to this over there but since I have to wait until my account is activated to do so, I will respond here, as well.

That's a pretty broad brush with which to paint us. I don't think you will find that all of us are negative. In fact a variety of posters have repeatedly mentioned the things for which they are grateful and how, having made peace with their past, realize that they gained understandings and insights that they would not have otherwise gained.

As far as contacting leaders, I believe the Biblical instruction is that if someone has something against you, you do the contacting. In other words it's the offender and not the offended that bears the responsibility for reconciliation.

To date, the only pastors I have been contacted by are Eric and Ronda Holmberg. I do not bear any ill will against the other pastors or leaders and should they wish to contact me my email address is Oaheblog@aol.com. How can I deny anyone grace and forgiveness when it has so liberally been granted to me?

I have made a public apology and repentance on this board and invited anyone I offended to contact me. That offer still stands and I promise not to rationalize or excuse. I was wrong and I admit it.

I also have contacted friends from that time. I have unfinished business in this area, though, in that there is a couple whom I greatly offended. I tried writing a letter to them about twelve years ago but it was returned. I have since Googled them and have a pretty good idea of where they are living. I haven't quite worked up the courage to write them again but now see that I should. So I will.

[matt_hatter]

"They all are negative about their experiences then and now"

Anne, broad brush indeed. Obviously, the poster has not done enough reading to find the freedom, love, laughter, and friendship that many of us have. I have said time and again that my MCM experience cannot be erased any more than my Little League experience. OF COURSE it was negative! Am I living in that negativity? Hell no! I have taken those sour lemons and made a cool glass of southern style lemonade!!! Thanks for your comments Anne!

One more editorial comment. Factnet is not a Christian Fellowship Chat Room. Although some of that happens, it is a message board for cult survivors. This includes a diversity of people, all of whom are welcome. We have differing opinions, I am cool with that. This was one of the problems of MCM, THIS WAS NOT TOLERATED! How completely insecure!

It is not my intention to be a "witness" to any poster or lurker, and couldn't give a rat's rump what some other message board tags me with!!

"All" are negative? Read a little deeper...

Mad Hatter

(Message edited by matt hatter on August 17, 2006)

[lablady2]

Anne, that was beautifully written.

As for myself, I contacted someone in Gainesville shortly after leaving MCM in 1982 to tell them the truth of my experience and to give them an opportunity to react or repent. If I recall correctly, I was informed by my contact during a call the next day that I was "wrong." It has been 23 years and at no time has anyone reached out in either a call or a letter to express any concern for my family or remorse for their actions. The only conclusion can be that the leadership of MCM didn't care then and doesn't care now.

I've since reached out to others in MCM leadership in a positive and friendly way. I feel absolutely no ill will toward any pastor I've personally had (Bob and Diana Nolte, Kenny and Kathy Vickers, and Mark and Denise Dillon). In fact, I feel a deep and abiding affection for all of them. They each brought some special things to my life that have led me to where I am today, and I am a happy, positive person today.

However, I do hold Bob and Rose Weiner, along with a few others, responsible for some of the more deliberate and hurtful things that happened to numerous people during MCM. Their ministry, their responsibility. Stuff rolls downhill. They need to repent and attempt to make restoration in the lives of those they have wounded, as much for themselves as for those they have hurt. While I may hate some of the things they have done, I don't hate Bob or Rose. I learned many years ago that being bitter or angry is a waste of time.

It has been my experience that every former pastor I have encountered on this board has sincerely expressed deep regret and sorrow for any hurts they may have caused during their years of leadership in MCM. To me, this speaks volumes about their character. Bob and Rose could do the same, and the fact that they don't speaks volumes about their character as well.

[freedom43]

Anne -- I agree that your post was beautifully written and shows a walk of integrity.

This whole thing reminds me of that Randy Travis song "Is it Still Over?

Is it still over?
Are we still through?
Since my phone still ain't ringing
I assume it still ain't you.

Fifteen years later, and my phone still ain't ringing. But, I don't think I care at this point.

In thinking about this though, Anne is correct, that the Bible seems to put the onus on them. If your brother has something against you, leave your offering at the altar and make amends....

But, in many cases, it seems that they do not still think we are their "brothers." After all, wasn't something always "wrong" with almost everyone who left -- people were labeled in all kinds of ways.

Besides, how can they apologize for EVERTHING? An entire system of abuse that controls and uses people. Wouldn't that mean that they actually had to recognize that they did/are doing something wrong? Somehow I don't think they will do that.

[freedom43]

Maybe I do still care. I am just trying to imagine how I would feel if my phone did ring and someone actually acknowledged that they might have not handled things right -- and that perhaps there should be some financial accountability and it was okay to question it and that perhaps folks were taken advantage of by them....etc. I think it would go a very long way in healing some of the old wounds. Wounds that I don't think I even realized are still there.

Um....nah-- ain't gonna happen.

[ageeh]

I do believe there is a level of cultism among factnet members who oppose MCM/EN as I mentioned in my post on Hater...

All cults begin with a good intention to correct a particular situation r to expose injustice of some realm or kingdom. And in my following of the posts on EN/MCM, I came to a conclusion that a large number of factnet members are deeply rooted into their negative eperiences of the EN/MCM and do not open a way forward or discuss serious matters that will help them with their current situations. Have heard of the struggle heroes like Mugabe, Mandela,etc they once had a common enemy 'the coloniser &amp; oppressor' but after liberation they realise how different they actually are to each other. That happens in churches, politics, families etc. All levels of human interaction are characterised by common ground 'the enemy' than their differences 'the real picture of freedom'.

This is evident thru post on homosexuality and dealing with sin in a christian family or church.

Philip heard on the news about the abortion matter in constitutional court, I'm very proud of you broer!!

[miltietoast]

freedom don't hold your breath, asking for forgiveness is a sign of weakness to them. Until their pride and arrogance are broken it is as you say ain't goin to happen

[john_r_jones]

That's why we have magic decoder rings, wear tight clothes and fight crime!

To infinity and beyond!
Johnny Quest

P.S. The purported cultishness of our crowd's demeanor brings to mind the likes of groaning at a game of "Twister" in a nursing home.

(Message edited by john r. jones on August 17, 2006)

[speakword2004]

The Forerunner champions a website named in honor of a campus newspaper of a disbanded ministry that Jay joined when everyone else was leaving. Maranatha was disbanded by the elders of MCM as a failed ministry which 17 years later Jay still champions. I understand that some good things may have been written for it.
Factnet's EN section has many more entries regarding Maranatha.It now provides publicity and links to Jay's site:
Jay please take the time to meet with people here personally as I have done.. I am available for a Skype chat ... to meet people here. Perhaps dialog would be a good start. I saw in another section that you asked people to contribute on your site: Factnet is fine for all kinds of dialog.

1. PhilipRosenthal was persecuted for raising moral issues and shown the door
2. Ulyankee's husband was called in when she questioned the integrity of the ministry and they tried to divide her husband from her

3. Ginger who has relationshps with leaders in US and Philipines has stood up and reported abuses to the church leaders-she has been used and abused, but much of her testimony has woken people up
4. Coppertree: He/she was a prophetic person accepted by leadership who was blackballed for a corrective word to his/ her local church
5. Tikie: A MCM Pastor whose testiony speaks for itself

These and others are heroes of the Faith. Each one of these people have shown love and concern for their fellow man in Godly ways. They are members of good churches and good people.
How many have stumbled and not got up?
Good Christians like John Jones and MattHatter reach out here to encourage and speak life to the bruised and broken. Both these men are churchmen of good standing.

[speakword2004]

Ageeh, Jesus hung with criminals at his side. He entered the houses of tax collecters, put his hand to lepers and rescued the prostitute. I would rather hang with this ragtag rabble than a bunch of deceivers. The level of activism and prophetic ministry of people on this board is not limited to this board. As someone who has taken the time to meet you and others here are you saying my call here is not off God? Am I cultic because I don't saint myself inside a church on Sunday? What level of deception am I in?

[lablady2]

'game of twister in a nursing home.." I am rofl. AND I like the mental image.

Yes, John, we are getting to the age when our cult status might be established by the fact that we all use the same brand of arthritis medication.

[speakword2004]

People like John and Tik were winning people to Jesus while some of us were still in nappies. Matt, Milt and others included and still are.Some of us need to get off our high horses and not bite into the poisonous apple that everyone who has some criticism of EN or MCM is embittered. And for those who may be let's help them find healing through fellowship and the Word of God.

[wisedove]

amen.

[speakword2004]

Many of us are involved in activism not detailed here. There is even activism in the fun threads started by John and other ragamuffins here who choose to show that there is life and laughter besides the enslavement of religion that MCM dictated. If we are going to stone the 1 queer and bonfire the 1 trans-sexual here I will not allow that. Neither am I keen for walking into a hospital- finding a heart surgery patient about to go under the knife -and lecturing them about over-indulging and unhealthy lifestyle choices. There is a time and place for that, but lets show some kindness just as much as we bash with the manual.
I have met some of the most generous and Jesus-like Christians here. I now count Philip, Ulyankee, Matt, Ginger and Old Jones and others here as my brothers and sisters in Christ and above that: my friends.

[john_r_jones]

Thanks Speak!
John

[ageeh]

Speakword; I'm not suggesting U r in a cult, I only give an analysis of what may be occuring to some members on this discussion board.

I'm sure you cannot outrightly make a sweeping statement of unticultism for everyone on this board. I for one as you may remember I do don't fellowship in a church building/denomination or congregation. I pray, fellowship with children of God elsewhere but in denominations.

Again sorry if I sound like an EN/MCM antispyware. I have very open views and are very careful to just agree to to a common cause of afflictions, because I know that when we are liberated from slavery land we begin to ask 'it was better back there than here, here we have no water nor food' remember the Israelites walking out of Egypt?

SpeakW, can U think of a time or life after the repentance of EN/MCM leadership? where will a discussion group such as us be? Will we go back to EN or will we bless them in their repentance or will we be waiting for the wounded to console cauz they won't be there anymore. Outside EN/MCM faults or abuses who are we on this board?

Sorry again if I sound reactionary, I love you all.

[matt_hatter]

Thank you speak. friends indeed!

Ageeh please listen to our friend. We are not against you. Some of us have just been on this 3rd Rock from the Sun longer than you. It does matter...time...it adds so much! I used to become impatient with Krems and the like, but I now realize it is the natural progression of aging.

The 20's are a time of black and white...and as you age, life will become grayer...and frustrating, but all of a sudden, it won't be that way, life will rule in full blown technicolor! Black, white, gray, and color, He is there with us all the way!

[ageeh]

Matthater, hahhh!!! Hahh!!!

In 20's one does what? r u suggesting I am 20_something? well I am born-again I will tell U the truth, I am 26 hahh! Hahh!

Well giys bye I am very young to engage issues hear, bye, bye, bye hope to meet you guys in heaven or on earth during rapture.

God dearly hide you under his shadow where the devil himself can't reach. Blessed r those who trust in God and not in men who will die and have their brains que into the cimetery.

Love U guys really, I am only Kingdom minded drunk with the spirit, crazy like those apostle in pentecost who looked crazy/drunk.

cheers. I rest my case

[miltietoast]

what the cast was that? I saw something in spandex flash by and it was not me in my three three

[speakword2004]

Well I just got my first personal prophetic word from God in 2 years. Will no share for now. Ageeh my posts were not aimed only at you. You are my bro' still and an encouragement to me that I was not HP's only maverick!

[speakword2004]

Ageeh is another hero of the faith as like me he smelled a dead rat un the same building and we only got to know each other because of Factnet.

[matt_hatter]

Ageeh, not suggesting that you go anywhere. Just adding a little perspective to what happens as we age. We have folks of all ages in here...but I have noticed one thing: Young and old, we do like to learn new things and listen to various opinions, you may get snapped at, but it is all good.

[speakword2004]

Milt, I have kept the white speedo, but exchanged the ribbons for a red woolcap/beanie ala Jacques Cousteau/ Bill Murrey.
Goodnight Johnboy.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Ageeh: I am only Kingdom minded drunk with the spirit, crazy like those apostle in pentecost who looked crazy/drunk.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Wow. Yah know, the apostles got called drunk by other people, they didn't themselves claim to be drunk. Please walk; don't drive.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[formermaranathapastor]

I hold nothing against anyone, and count my experience pastoring for MCM to have both positive and negative experiences. But while I hold nothing against the former leaders, I consider them outside the realm of truth as I know it, and would not enter into fellowship with them, unless they approached me. I totally agree with Anne Lewis, except I consider all of the leaders in MCM/MSI/EN to be very dangerous manipulators and control freaks. They are leading their flocks astray with a dangerous and false "literal-text" gospel of works.
If Bob Weiner and Joe Smith and Bob Nolte and PB and RB and NP and RR were so humble and Godly, they would have been on FactNet apologizing years ago, instead of sending Bob's lap-dog Jay Rogers to stir us up and try to make us feel guilty and try to further manipulate us.

"It's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business".
Michael Corleone in GodFather 1.

[formermaranathapastor]

Oh and Ageeh-

I have attended several gay churches, and in them I have found an incredible spirit of humility and love for God for accepting them as they are.

God's love is wider and deeper than our own, and sometimes we get confused. It is just better not to judge, it saves much confusion.

[freedom43]

why don't we deal with this sin issue once and for all and just have a stoning. Ageeh can cast the first stone.

[sameo]

Freedom:"why don't we deal with this sin issue once and for all and just have a stoning. Ageeh can cast the first stone."

Ah, man, that is brilliant, freedom! good word! I agree! thank you-

Do you mean cast as in throw or s*** the first stone? either way....still right on!!!

[miltietoast]

yeah, I think I'm a lesbian trapped in a male body.Yall pray for me cause I still got the cravin

[john_r_jones]

I think a more appropriate question would be, "Are we a quilt?"-Yes.

John

[miltietoast]

former maranatha said --I have attended several gay churches, and in them I have found an incredible spirit of humility and love for God for accepting them as they are.
milty--I have attended several adultrous churches and have found an incredible spirit of humility and love for God for accepting them as they are. Especially when I see the discarded wives babysitting their ex husbands younger wives children.A touching sight

[upcase20]

AnneLewis: I sure would like to hear Eric Holmbergs opinion. He was one of the leaders of that DC church before he went to Florida. He taught that 6 hour Covenant Members Course at C Street. You had to take it before you joined the church. You HAVE GREAT CHARACTER Anne. I heard that Eric had left Maranatha/EN. Are you listening Eric ? Feel free to jump in here anytime. If you could teach that Covenant Members Course I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for you to voice an opinion on this board and offer an apology for the tactics that I saw you use.

[robert_unknown]

""They all are negative about their experiences then and now" "

LOL - if the experiences would not have been negative, we woiuld not be negative about them.
Or shall we engage in doublethink... again?

I dont know, but if a girl gets abused, I mean, isnt it NORMAL that she is NEGATIVE abuut it?

[40days40years]

At Jays forum I cannot post bad stuff unless I have 2 witnesses and I have confronted the abuser first? Confront the Lords annointed mummy? that is pretty scary. New rules here, the abusers must bring 20 witnesses testifying they are innocent. We are doing pharisee profiling here now, something along the lines of it waddles and quacks and floats and eats slime = duck or dirty duck.

[freedom43]

40days40years: At Jays forum I cannot post bad stuff unless I have 2 witnesses and I have confronted the abuser first?

Me: How do they define: "confront the abuser." I am still digging through my old files to see if I saved a copy of the letter I wrote the pastor before leaving Maranatha. It confronted him about financial and other dealings in the church and asked for an accounting. I got a lame reply and never went back. If I had the letter and two other people to confirm what happened, could I post then, I wonder?

[john_r_jones]

Well Jay I guess if ya can't beat 'em-scorn 'em.

I sense a new thread comming...ah yes it's, it's...Hubris!

John

[mcmstaff78]

ageeh: I do believe there is a level of cultism among factnet members who oppose MCM/EN as I mentioned in my post on Hater...

Me: This is one of the more ludicrous things I read from supporters of MCM/MSI/EN and other authoritarian groups. However, it is typical of spiritual abusers to try to turn the accusations on their head and make the victim feel like the victimizer. Take one little aspect of something, apply it in the most general way and then say "see, it's really *you* that has the problem."

There is simply *no way* that FACTNet folks, especially those here, can be a "cult". There is no leadership, there is no organization. It is simply a FORUM for virtual discussion. It would be like saying a bunch of folks meeting at the coffee shop to share their experiences regarding an abusive pastor is a "cult". This is simply another variation of the "rebellion of Korah" theme. Anyone who attempts this simply demonstrates they are a manipulator and a spiritual abuser. Ignore them.

[jesusisawesome]

Ulyankee, thanks for sharing. I find this very humorous, considering the smorgasbord of varying opinions that are voiced here. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[flo1151]

Ageeh,
I love you brother but I think you are full of S##t.

[lablady2]

I would like to announce my candidacy for President of the MCM/EN Former Members/Factnet Cult.

Oh, wait...we can't vote. That would be democratic.

I would like to announce that I am now officially the president of the MCM/EN Former Members/Factnet Cult.

The first order of business is to reinstate the home cooking of meals for fellow members. Please put down the date, time and entree you're cooking (I'm not fond of fish) on the sign up sheet that is being circulated via e-mail. Please include your address so I can show up.

Should you decide to challenge my authority, champ, not only will you be throughly hootahed, you will receive one French Taunting.

[wisedove]

78: it is typical of spiritual abusers to try to turn the accusations on their head and make the victim feel like the victimizer.

Interesting that you bring this up here. I will add that this is typical of ANY type of abuser...they are guilty of the very thing they are trying to put on someone else. I deal with this type of thing on a regular basis.

Passive aggressive personalities are like this. I shared with you part of my experiences on another thread, 78. This better explains things here. Any kind of abuser loves to turn the tables and try to play the victim. The quiet, sly passive aggressive type does this all the time. They provoke someone to anger, quietly sit back and watch the other fly off at the handle, and they look sweet and innocent through it all, thus playing "victim" and making the victim feel like the victimizer.

Sorry, off on another tangent. Just sharing some of what I have been allowed to walk through, not only in EN, but in my personal life as well.
Dove

[robert_unknown]

" How do they define: "confront the abuser." "

My abuser apologized. After willingly abusing me. And then he went on, abusing others. So what the heck shall I do now? Just shut up, and watch him abusing others? No way, Sir.

[robert_unknown]

"I would like to announce my candidacy for President of the MCM/EN Former Members/Factnet Cult.

Oh, wait...we can't vote. That would be democratic.

I would like to announce that I am now officially the president of the MCM/EN Former Members/Factnet Cult. "

-------

You are the apostle here...

No, wait... You are a girl? The you are the prophetes...

Who volenteers for the Apostle? I can confirm it, that You are the apostle, and that the Lord is doing great things through you... lets call this wonderfull thing today the "miracle of the Net" ;)

all the others, just SHUT UP, and thithe... my acount number is as follows!



http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[40days40years]

ageeh who is the leader of this anti MCM/MSI/EN cult you talk about?

You said: I came to a conclusion that a large number of factnet members are deeply rooted into their negative experiences of the EN/MCM --- Uh hum I will have to give that a big NO DUH award. So who is the leader of this thing?, the hot tempered Bill Mack, Ginger, Ulyankee or 84 and his gang of cronies? bwahaaahaahhahaha! I hope I am at least a captain in this thing. Being a member of a cult terrified me in the 80's. 40/40 anti cult semi captain leader, yeah that sounds cool, kids in EN bible study saying he is a bad man watch out. Yeah that is so super cool. Ageeh wash our socks just like JIA use to do, PuLEASE!!

[matt_hatter]

You guys are cracking me up. I was going to announce my candidancy for court jester, but Robert and LL are leading in the polls. I do think flo ought to be Sec. of State, with his smooth diplomatic language.

Miltie, Dilly and Sameo, Czars of the Anti- Prohibition Alcohol Board.

J2, Tarzan, Matt Drudge, Czars for the Arts and Media Spin Dept. (Tarzan can be your Boy Friday)
"Oh Tar-Tar, get me some jungle juice..."

AHHHH-AHAHAH---AHAHAHA!!!

Still trying to figure out 'Guns bad, Nazis bad'...J2, were the movies you rented a box set? I think I'll look on Amazon...that would be a cool anniversary present for Allie Sept 2. (28 years!) Got married on labor day weekend, and I have made her work everyday since then. She has long ago quit laughing at this joke....no sense of humor.

BTW, we had been married 3 weeks when we started attending the MCM outreach at Auburn. Within a few weeks, we had a son, Tikie is his name.
Matt

[flo1151]

matt,
I'm thinking secretary of offence.
flo

[wisedove]

robert-
i think that was one of the 1st times I saw your funnier side...forgive me if I missed this somewhere else on the board! I can't keep up!

Matt and Flo, more smiles this morning!Thanks.

[matt_hatter]

I like it--very offensive---but you haven't been around Miltie on Fridays before his Sat. night bath. Oh he already has a job. Gotta get back to my book, trying to catch ageeh, you know, 26 yrs and thousands of books....here I go, Batman Vs. Two Face. Harvey Dent or Rice Brooks?

[mdillon]

mattie-Batman Vs. Two Face. Harvey Dent or Rice Brooks?

i'm thinking its probably Rod Parsely, but its so hard to tell. Easy now, that's not cultish ill-will, i'm just saying.

lablady-I feel absolutely no ill will toward any pastor I've personally had (Bob and Diana Nolte, Kenny and Kathy Vickers, and Mark and Denise Dillon). In fact, I feel a deep and abiding affection for all of them

that He would extend His grace to me through you after all these years has led me into fresh acres of His wonderful love and mercy. See I have to be nice to you because with that laser wit, you would scortch me with matching BobJoe tatoos on either shoulder.

its mutual, lab

dillyduck

[flo1151]

matt
I defer to miltie. What was I thinking? A man has got to know his limitations. Maybe Sec. of interior. I don't like being outside without A/C. O i will evern take the left toe on the left foot job.

flo

[lablady2]

thanks, md.

I would not trade my time or lessons from MCM. Almost 25 years post-MCM, those experiences are just woven into the fabric of my being. God did so many things in my life in Boulder...just not the things MCM intended. God is so funny sometimes.

[mdillon]

okay, flo, you just ruined it for all of us, now they're CONVINCED that we're a cult since you mentioned "foot job". geesh.

Ok, everybody, ready?

"Evern"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

dillyeaux

[robert_unknown]

look guys.
if you make me to the apoistle (yep - the apoIstle!) of our cult, ähem, church! i dont promise that i will be nice. no - i will kick your azzes big time, that you feel remindet at MCM (home) imediately.

but at least i will tell you the TRUTH.

if you tithe it will NOT go into missions, but into my account big times.

if you buy a venue, i will sell it, and keep the money.

if you try to critisize me, i will call the mob to give you some.

the older lads, can cut my lawn and clean my anointed car. hey - my car is BIG TIME anointed, and by cleaning it, you do yourself good!

the girls may care for my kids. dont mess with them or i cast izebel out of you.

if you are loyal you can even raise up in the hierarchy and become deacons. this means you clean my toilet, the floor and eventually cook my food.

well, guys - you like that?

i beg i am gonna lika that!

"Blessed the man (and woman) that serveth ME!"
So dont be egoistic and selfcentered. come on, and serve ME!


http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

(Message edited by robert_unknown on August 19, 2006)

[matt_hatter]

HOLY REVELATIONS BATMAN!!

Robert (Bob) Unknown (Weiner)

I KNEW THERE WAS A MOLE IN HERE!!!

Again, altogether: HAHAHAHAHAHA
Priceless, Robert.

[wisedove]

Robert seems to have found his niche!

[robert_unknown]

I confess! i got named after the holy, unique and ANOINTED Weiner...! you got me, matt!

[robert_unknown]

"Robert seems to have found his niche!"

does this mean i can count on you, dove? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
great! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

[wisedove]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gifTHIS MEETING WILL COME TO ORDER....THE HONORABLE DOVE IS PRESIDING...

(GAVEL BEATING DOWN ON THE DESK..)

will the prosecutors bring their first witness?

witness1: judge, may I be excused? I want to stay out of this one!

judge: no! you MUST testify...(prosecutor) Is it TRUE that Robert (bob) Unknown (weiner) has used His superior authority against you by taking advantage of your vulnerability, your youth, your stamina, and IS he GUILTY of the counts against Him of:
spiritual abuse
misuse of funds
failure to report financial records
failure to keep an accurate account
lording it over the flock
witness1: yes, all of the above....

to be continued.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Matt:J2, Tarzan, Matt Drudge, Czars for the Arts and Media Spin Dept. (Tarzan can be your Boy Friday)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Huzzah! Under my new reign of terror everyone must watch Chris[t] Kattan movies and like them!

Drudge advises that The Notebook is voluntary-mandatory watching and Lucy Liu will now be considered the sexiest of the new Charlie's Angels.

In the spirit of grace, Tarzan wants to make it clear that it is perfectly allowable and absolutely not immoral for a member of this cult to gaze at photographs of bodybuilders.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Matt: Still trying to figure out 'Guns bad, Nazis bad'...J2, were the movies you rented a box set?<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I thought I told you elsewhere on this board that I'm pretty certain the "Guns Bad, Nazi's bad" movie was Tarzan Triumphs (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036414/).

Yes, the movies I rented were a boxed set which you can find here on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001NBLYA/sr=1-2/qid=1156008528/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-5708322-4228668?ie=UTF8&amp;s=dvd). They feature the first six Tarzan movies--all of the ones that were made by MGM.

[wisedove]

here, here, the (dis) honorable judge Dove conitnuing...

Robert Unknown, you are herby sentenced to 5 years of community service. You are to go to your congregation's homes, sweep their floors, cook their meals, wash their cars and dogs, walk their dogs, scrub THEIR toilets, all in the name of ministry.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

[robert_unknown]

"Robert Unknown, you are herby sentenced to 5 years of community service. "

LOOOL...
but after all the years of abuse i have suffered, after all the thousands of bucks that have been frauded out of me i am free to sit and command!

yeah... i looooove to command. its good for my ego. i am a looser in civil live, so i rather be a captain in Gods Green Berrrrrrrretts...

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
---Hi All catching up - So.....if many of us were given the left foot of fellowship from this group...( this would include the left toe along.)


Then we should have, as like in England ( the Order of the Garter)<font size="+1">
We could have <font color="ff0000"> The Order of the Left Toe and Foot !!

</font> perhaps Speakword, would agree to do his famous dance, with speedo, cap and cat!</font>}

(Message edited by coppertree on August 19, 2006)

[matt_hatter]

I love it--always something new---The Factnet badge as our crest to the Order of the Left Toe and Foot! Long Live King Unknown! Huzzah indeed!

And yes j2, you did tell me that about Tarzan Triumphs, but you must remember (something I cannot do) that was a few days ago. Allie has been feeding me off of lead plates for years for some reason.

[mcmstaff78]

Man, this is *no* way to run a cult. You guys need to come to *ORDER*. I mean it. Right now, or else, or else, or else...I'm gonna hold my breath until I pass out. Of course, you won't know it cause I won't be able to keep typing, but you're all really starting to show you're not taking this thing seriously enough and so, yep, I'm gonna do it, I'm holding my breath, and you better shape up becazxccjl;kvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Matt Great Idea-<font size="+1">


The Badge !!!

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif




Men can wear it also, as men in 17 cent. wore it as a garter if desired. Check Louis 14 th. at the Louvre. This could be a manly thing as En has it's ring ceremonial meetings; we could have badges, worn in various places ! Or we could keep them secret, so we would know each other in public. </font>}

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Coppertree: Men can wear it also, as men in 17 cent. wore it as a garter if desired. Check Louis 14 th. at the Louvre. This could be a manly thing<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Tarzan approves.

[robert_unknown]

i feeeeeeel, i feeeeeeeeeeel...
you guys dont have the right attitude to this serious matter. i mean. we are the chosen generation. on the cutting edge. you guys think its funy to make jikes of this, dont you? dont you tthhhhhink, you grieve my spirit?
dove - come over. my girl is crying, and i have no time to comfort her. i need to find new ways to scam... sorry, i mean, to SAVE the world.

what would you guys be without my anointing?

ever thought about this?

matt, you may kiss my car with holy kiss, or hugh it with a side hugh!

GUYS - i am darn frustrated tonight! the guys frauded me of so much money, its incredible. and they still keep kicking my azz.

[dust]

Okay, I went to Jay's website. Very funny. Here are the rules BEFORE you can post:
1. Treat other forum members with respect (Mat. 7:12).

2. Do not post accusations toward churches or elders of churches that cannot be corroborated by the testimony of two or more witnesses (1 Tim. 15:9)

3. Do not post accusations toward individuals before using the method of direct confrontation commanded by scripture (Mat. 18:15).

4. Post on this topic only to the CONTRA EN thread. Do not cross post to other forums and threads.

5. I will need to clear all new users due to problems with spammers. This usually takes me a few days.

I look forward to a lively dialogue and debate concerning EN and the CONTRA EN group.
Regarding #1, shouldn't be hard. You won't let anyone that challenges you onto your sight.
Regarding #2, That's pretty much covered.
Regarding #3. I was told in EN, I was NOT ALLOWED to use Matthew 18 (that it didn't apply to leaders).
Regarding #4 Can't cross post to other forums and threads? What does this mean. In other words, anyone that's posted on factnet is OUT. Does he now exclude himself too?
Regarding #5 He will personally clear all users. Of course, he will.

This is the funniest thing I've seen so far. I am amazed at his ambition to be so involved in something he's not involved in!

[j2theperson]

***I look forward to a lively dialogue and debate concerning EN and the CONTRA EN group.***

In a somewhat amusing and possibly even ironic twist, no one (at least as of this day and this hour) posted in that discussion thread after he slapped up his rules.

His whole discussion board appears to be rather sad and empty--little activity and little lurking, a ghost town of a message board.

[matt_hatter]

***I look forward to a lively dialogue and debate

1 Uhh...how's the weather over there in EN land?

2 Great! Fantastic, how about with you Ex'rs?

1 All gloomy and negative, tornados and blizzards. Nothing good.

2 Come on XChamp! Shape up or ship out!

Now that's some lively debate....Matt

[lablady2]

Wow, the need to control everything and everybody must be exhausting for these guys. The need to control is fear-based - I wonder what the heck it is that scares these people so much.

Do I really want to know?

[robert_unknown]

wow - are we the "Contras" now?
is this a compliment or another attempt to discredit us? heck - i dont care what these guys think. I know what i went through, and what I am still walking through.

Funny thing is, that the "rules" 1-5 arent valid for the "leaders" - or shall i say the "fuhrers"?

----
so i will try to set up the rules for the "fuhrers" now! or call it "beeing a fuehrer for dummies" (hope you know this books in the US):

1. Treat other forum members with disrespect (Mat. 7:12). treat them like they dont know what they say, have to less insight, are too less spiritual, have the spirit of rebellion, are not mature enough.

2. feel free to post accusations toward churchemembers or elders of churches, however it suits you. call other churches "religous". Dont care for 1 Tim. 15:9, as YOU are THE leader!

3. Do not post accusations toward individuals before using the method of direct confrontation commanded by scripture (Mat. 18:15). Confront them only together with one or two other leaders, to intimitade them. Dont listen to whatever argument they may have. Call them all sort of things (Izebel, Korah, rebellious, demonic...) - demonice
them

what the heck does THIS mean?

4. Post on this topic only to the CONTRA EN thread. Do not cross post to other forums and threads.

5. I will need to clear all new users due to problems with spammers. This usually takes me a few days.
---

why does earnie clean out all the "new members"? is he afraid of beeing confronted with arguments that dont suit him?

I mean thats like in communist party meetings! clean out the "unliked guys" who are not on party line, to avoid critical questions!


in fact they dont want a discussion! they want a Pro-EN and contra-CONTRAS pseudo-topic...

wow - now THATS what i call a mature way of dealing with questions!

great job, guys, champs! proofs just one more time that our concerns are for good reason!

and it makes it hard for people with some brain left inside of them to believe that MCM/MSI/EN is NOT a cult!

[robert_unknown]

attention! this guid is ONLY for leaders.
You as stupid sheep just SHUT UP and obey!

[40days40years]

dust about crossposting, it usually means posting a response to more than one group or forum at a time.

I believe that you may have just crossposted by posting verbatim Jays rules over here, copper or j2 would know for sure I bet. Your not even a member of his forum and your already breaking Jays rules I am afraid.

[robert_unknown]

R: "Nasso - I think we have lost controlle and should consider the question if we are a cult?"

N: "Nah, Rice... You are always too concerned. we encourage people to think inte... ahh tependently, we enourage them to serve the Lord by serving us, and to tithe to us, so they get blessed a-b-u-n-d-a-n-t-l-y! We show them how to live a blessed live. We teach them how to use the force for speaking their dreams into existence - how can we be a cult?"

R: "but all this critical voices"

N: "Nah. You get soft on your old days, champ. You know. Thats the reason we have introduced discipleship. It might be cultic, but how the heck, should we controle all this crazy people. I mean even i got disciplined by my principle. EVEN I! Dont you think they deserve it well also?"

R: "You really think so? I mean if they get frustrated they might stop tithing and do work for us!"

N: "Work? What work? what is "work"? I mean they volunteer to do it. its fun for them. and they get our anointing! Look at Tony... Tony took good care of my girls, and he loved it... THATS not work!"

R "you are right champ, sorry for beeing so tupid and think about this stupid sheep! come on, dont waist any precious time... lets go play some golf now... CFC pays for it...
"
N "no way, mate, champ, i got some new mickey ears, and i have invited the guys from Europe over to Disney world!"

R "really?"

N "no, dunno! was a joke! of course they pay for themselves... Had not enough bucks for them... needed to by a new "Cedes" for my wife. That costs..."

R "Yeah... Thats real suffering, mate. I know..."

N "well - i am glad the Lord provides for us..."

R "me too."

N "see you then..:"

R "yeah... and may the force be with you!"


-----

DISCLAIMER:
of course this scene is only fictive. And it has nothing to do woth real people, real live, and real happenings. And the names are no real names. All similarities to real people are only pure chance, and not out of any intention!

(Message edited by robert_unknown on August 19, 2006)

[wiseasaserpentgentleasadove]

this is a test of the emergency broadcast system...this is ONLY a TEST....
BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEp

(Message edited by wiseasaserpentgentleasadove on August 19, 2006)

[dust]

Well, let me break a few more rules..

Jay's rules in a nutshell:

"Don't argue with us if you can't agree with us?" I say, HUH?

Now that would be great for Jay's pre-doctorate friend that was going to "study" us. My degrees tell me this is Not Valid and Reliable scientific data. Maybe she can work for CNN.

Dove was telling me yesterday how her ex church was trying to create "UNITY" by having everyone do the exact same everything study, like when they did 40 days of the Purpose Driven Life. And, they CLAIMED they were not into UNIFORMITY, just UNITY. Again, I say, HUH?

You know leaders could get away with this junk, when the sheep were starving and/or illiterate. Six or Seven of us watchtowers must be posing a tremendous threat to get our own thread somewhere else.

Jay, You'll have to dump something into the food supply to get any real followers and liven up the ghost town. (J2 ROFL)

But, really It's too late. We've already contaminated the UNIVERSE with the TRUTH about Jesus Christ and the REAL CHURCH!

[robert_unknown]

" Six or Seven of us watchtowers must be posing a tremendous threat to get our own thread somewhere else. "!

its the same thing like with companies that work unethicaly. They spend billions into advertising and into image! remember nike? then, when people start to raise the unethical things and start to dig up the booh-booh, they get VERY concerned!

I recomend everyone to read the "Blackbook of Companies" or to visit websites of "Clean Clothes"...

There are so many similarities!

[robert_unknown]

" But, really It's too late. We've already contaminated the UNIVERSE with the TRUTH about Jesus Christ and the REAL CHURCH!"

we are the "Rebellion" against the "Imperials"...

[ulyankee]

robert, you forgot S:

S: The people on ground level must be equipped and empowered to make the detailed "means" decisions [translation: work toward our goals, but make them think they thought of it themselves] based on the "ends" that come from higher levels of leadership. When this happens, everyone is happy.

DISCLAIMER: even though that's an exact quote, the translation is mine. Of course, who am I? A former cult member who is in a cult because I used to be in a church but became convinced it was a cult, rebelled against authority thinking I was just running away for dear life, and now I'm in an ex-cult cult, even though I am "a converted Christian who ascribes to the four ecumenical creeds of the church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian, and Chalcedonian) the inerrant inspiration of scripture, and a church member in good standing" and as a result, "any testimony concerning what is and what is not a cult or a false religion can be taken seriously."http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

[ulyankee]

Hey Dove, can you shorten your beeeep? It's making the page load funny. Coppertree will say something for sure but I wanted to say it first, hehehehe.

[wisedove]

Is that better, Ulyankee??? I did what you asked just in case you were being serious..hehehe

[flo1151]

we are the borg and you will be assimilated.
resistance is futile.

[wisedove]

WHEW! You said a mouthfull! I was getting a little confused with whether I am an ex-cult, turned cult cult or whatever...Yikes!!!

Dust, found notes on the unity/uniformity thing...

Definition: uniformity-everything or everybody is the same. same texture, size, color, and design.

unity-differently gifted people working together in harmony for the common good.

Notes: our FLESH desires uniformity. The ENEMY despises unity.

Are we following Christ or are we asking Him to FOLLOW US where WE want to go?

God places us in the body as HE sees need.
(mini sermon for the day....)http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

[j2theperson]

Yeah, it looks great Dove. It makes the page much easier to read. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[40days40years]

good one ulyankee.

robert the Imperials are or were a Christian pop group of middle aged guys that were very popular in the 80's I always liked them.

As far as EN they call themselves Kings Kids so calling themselves Imperials makes sense.

dust and dove their word for unity really means submission. Tricky fellows, took me 20 years to figure that out.

[wisedove]

j2, thanks! It wasn't loading funny to me, so I wasn't sure if Ul was joking by trying to put a little authoritarian spirit in here (heheheheh) or what! I just bought a 19 inch flat panel widescreen monitor, so perhaps thats why it didn't load funny to me...Thanks!

[dust]

Ul, thanks for taking us for a drive over to Jay's thread. I like to visit ghost towns.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

Just don't let Bill drive. Who knows WHERE we could end up. Some secret society connecting Cain to the NOLR.
(okay I'm kidding, Bill's my friend).

On second thought, Bill could probably make some kind of case.

[dust]

I don't understand the loading/unloading computer problem thing. I never have them. I'm using a MAC. Talk about cults, we mac people are only 3% of the population and we are a cult, for sure. Once you go mac, you never go back. We've "converted all our neighbors and close friends." It's a cult.

[flo1151]

just viewed Jays pitiful site. Was reminded of the old Peggy Lee song "Is that all there is".

flo

[ulyankee]

no, I wasn't joking, wasn't trying to spread any authoritarian spiritual DNA or do a hootah session by proxy on you, it does look better, thanks!! It's no biggie for me but anyone using a dial up connection or a smaller monitor might have issues.

I used to have a Mac, but then I married someone who wasn't part of the Mac cult, so I gave my old Mac to my brother. He was still using it several years (and several PCs!) later. Though I did extend the useable life of my hubby's Dell for several years by putting an aftermarket replacement processor in it. It ended up being the death of that computer though, b/c my stepdaugther downloaded a video with an embedded virus, and when she ran the video it executed the file, overclocked the already overclocked motherboard and literally fried the system. That kind of thing just doesn't happen to Macs of any age.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Ulyankee: my stepdaugther downloaded a video with an embedded virus, and when she ran the video it executed the file, overclocked the already overclocked motherboard and literally fried the system. That kind of thing just doesn't happen to Macs of any age.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

That's only because Macs are so unpopular no one bothers to make viruses for them. If Macs sold better you can bet computer jerks the world over would be making viruses for them.

[dust]

UL,
If you ever are ready to go mac again, let me know. I have connections. See, I'm already trying to convert my fact net friends.
We seriously have NO computer problems. NO VIRUSES! At the clinic I'm working at, I'm on a PC, and I can't believe what I have to go through to do simple tasks. It's archaic. I'm am SO cult-vulnerable.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[sameo]

Wow! I've been missing all the fun! YOU guys are ALL hilarious--had me in stitches...especially you, Ageeh!LOL

Thanks for the laughter!

Also, hope ya'll don't take the bait...when someone is being called out ever notice how they throw it back on YOU! Absurdity to call US a cult....but see, this is in order to TRY and take the attention off the REAL cult! ah-HAH! I'm edgee-kated....evern tho' I qwit college to follow BobW....yeh-I'm on to your wiles...yesssiree-BOB!!!! OH, man, that was a good'un!
(git it..)

[dust]

I'm cracking up about the Peggy Lee song. The chorus goes like this:

Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is


Welcome to the party Sameo!

[40days40years]

When you think about it we are like anti virus software with firewall and utilities built in designed to keep EN DNA in check. Repair and defrag and reconfig brains that have been damaged.

Come to think of it if I was Rice or Phil I would never even utter the word factnet. I mean what are you gonna say?, our main nemesis out there is taking dominion and posts about us on the largest anti-cult board out there? Solution, hmmmm let me think. Eureka we will call them a cult.

Yeah we have problems but what about your life?, why don't you take care of that first before dealing with the things you brought up. Would'nt that be funny if that was in an EN training manual under the title what to say when objections are raised. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[wisedove]

Hey, Ul-glad I obeyed and was able to edit it before my 30 min. deadline!! Thanks!

I am taking a break (where's MDILLON when I need him?) from trying to put a STUPID oak file cabinet together ALONE; it has pre-drilled holes and is on some camlock system. HUBBY IS OUT BUILDING A DEER STAND, CAN'T COUNT ON HIM ANY TIME SOON...SO, HERE'S THE DEAL. One of the holes is too large for the DUMB camlock screw to tighten all the way, which will make the final product unstable (wobbly leg) Do I go bring the entire thing back now? Or call the company Monday and ask for a replacement part? (I'm pretty impatient, especially now that my house is upside down with JUNK everywhere that I was going to put in this new cabinet.. It was the last STUPID one at the store...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif

[lablady2]

Wise: go drag the husband off the deerstand. You are doing him a favor.

They are dangerous. Each fall during hunting season I had 3-4 patients on the med-surg floor who fell out of deerstands. It could be really painful if a splintered tree sat right below. I used to think I could imagine the laughter of deer as I changed a wound dressing. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

[sameo]

Thanks Dust, girl! ;-)

Dovey-bummer about your cabinet...sorry i can't help!

[wisedove]

ohhh, this is definitely a test...why do I take on crazy projects like this? What the heck am i tying to prove???

I am gonna march back in there and finish this thing...then the store can have it back if it's not sturdy...I'm determined...adios, amigos..

[40days40years]

lablady were those guys that fell out of deerstands usually drunk when the accident happened? Lets say their sitting up there for hours and there are no deer like usual, what else are they going to do?

[lablady2]

Nope, most of them just fell asleep. At least, that was their story.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Dove- Have you tried duck tape. I saw that on Red Green show, lolol. Sorry don't know about fine cabinets .Thank you for not elongating here; lots of people don't have large formats. People lurk here, so any way from their homes on public computers. They would thank you, if they could.}

[mdillon]

hey dovey, sorry i'm late, i'm still in the shop hacking away. wish I could help you with your <strike>piece of crap</strike> cabinet. i'm afraid deer stands are made better than you're store bought. furniture like this keeps me in business. need a custom fit?http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif miltie's has secret RR compartment- it's huge. only holds one file, but hey, priorities you know.

[mdillon]

hey dovey, sorry i'm late, i'm still in the shop hacking away. wish I could help you with your <strike>piece of crap</strike> cabinet. i'm afraid deer stands are made better than you're store bought. furniture like this keeps me in business. need a custom fit?http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif miltie's has secret RR compartment- it's huge. only holds one file, but hey, priorities you know.

[mdillon]

hey dove, seriously, take a wooden match and break off the end in the oversize hole. the screw should bite into the broken match (might need a couple) and for pete's sake, don't light the match.

p.s. these double dippers are for you

dillyeaux

[wisedove]

yeah, too little, too late, dillyeaux!

I DID IT! I could have just bought one of those metal cabinets already put together, but I wanted it to look like a piece of furniture, so, I got my hubby's permission (he's the bread-winner) to upgrade my file cabinet, and MAN, WAS THAT A PAIN IN THE HINEY!

I need more than one file capability, thanks!

I must say that I AM pretty impressed with the final product. Also, I only bit my children's heads of once, and only kicked the dog across the room once. (jest keeeeeding!!)

Thanks, any-who dilly!

I have NO patience for woodworking. My hands hurt. My back hurts, and it was only 1 dumb 1-drawer oak file cabinet with a top shelf. Glad it's over, and it actually is o.k.

wise-thenotsogoodatcarpentry-dove

[wisedove]

Man, that is a good tip! I'm not takin it apart now!!! Thanks, will keep that in mind for all of my (not so near) future projects.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

btw, how did you cross those words out? Ya'll are getting to smart for me!

[mdillon]

hey dove, seriously, take a wooden match and break off the end in the oversize hole. the screw should bite into the broken match (might need a couple) and for pete's sake, don't light the match.

p.s. these double dippers are for you

dillyeaux

[wisedove]

how did my posts squeeze in between your double dippers? hehe
Thanks!

[wisedove]

now that i have my nice (hopefully) file cabinet together, before hubby gets home from building (custom, btw-dillyeaux!) the deer stand, I need to get to cleaning and organizing..Bye, all, for now.

[mdillon]

dove, when the cabinet falls apart in a few months (hootah- neg. confession) have hubby holla for more upgrade. working on a deer stand design that doubles as outdoor kitchen.

dillyeaux

[mdillon]

dove, when the cabinet falls apart in a few months (hootah- neg. confession) have hubby holla for more upgrade. working on a deer stand design that doubles as outdoor kitchen.

dillyeaux

[wisedove]

oohh, I'm sure he'd looovvee that one! He's makin it big enough for him (and he THINKS) my son! And lawn chairs. Have you ever heard such a thing?! Yeah, he wants to get a deer. What he REALLY wants it a place to get away and NAP!!! LL, he shouldn't fall out if he has a lawn chair up there. His fault if he does.

[lablady2]

I predict that the chair will only add to the injuries, i.e., leg twisted in aluminum frame yielding a broken tibia. You don't want a man with a broken tibia sitting in a chair for three months. Trust me on this. Burn the deer stand.

[matt_hatter]

I spend so much time sleeping in deer stands I have probably missed tons of trophy bucks. No worries lablady, I am strapped in and I moved to little houses on stilts last deer season. Close the door, prop an unloaded gun up against the wall, and usually lean the chair back against another wall and go to sleep. Worse thing that can happen to me is to run out of foot warmers.

I know, you are saying, why not just stay in bed. I would miss the killer armadillos.

Matt

[mdillon]

hey lab, my deer stand/outdoor kitchen comes with a supply of safety harnesses. perfect for hauling up <strike>cases of rolling rock</strike> supplies.

doublefreakingdippindillyeaux

[lablady2]

matt: your story reminded me of a comedian I once heard.

He was a duck hunter. He said he would get up at 4 a.m., stand in cold water up to his thighs on a freezing morning and think to himself, "at least she's not here."

(Message edited by lablady2 on August 19, 2006)

[mdillon]

hey lab, my deer stand/outdoor kitchen comes with a supply of safety harnesses. perfect for hauling up <strike>cases of rolling rock</strike> supplies.

doublefreakingdippindillyeaux

[lablady2]

I suppose it's hard to duck hunt with a rolling rock in your hand.

[mdillon]

who said anything about hunting? isn't that dangerous?

dillyeaux

[lablady2]

Yeah, that's kinda what I figured. Come to think of it, I never had a hunter as a patient who had accidentally shot himself or been shot by someone else a la Cheney.

Nope...they all just feel asleep (after finishing a case of rolling rock) and fell face first, foot first, a** first into whatever. Took everything I had as a medical professional not to snicker.

[mdillon]

who said anything about hunting? isn't that dangerous?

dillyeaux

[matt_hatter]

"at least she's not here."

She..them...him...her...it...they...everybody...no body.
That is why I go. Passed on so many deer, couldn't begin to count em. Just me and the Lord.

[ulyankee]

Hey, sorry to change the topic from deer stands back to the original topic. I'm so boring I know.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

A few years ago, the Cult Awareness Network (CAN) was sued by a well-known cult and was forced to disband. [. . .]

From a Christian point of view, the problem with CAN is that they used mind control and brainwashing to convince people in evangelical and fundamentalist churches that they had been "brainwashed" by a cult. In fact, CAN itself was a dangerous cult that participated in kidnapping and mind control. The civil courts put a legal end to their activity.

But there are other such groups that operate today.

from the Forerunner forum, emphases mine (http://forerunner.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?p=343&amp;sid=2d01c86ccab3fc2668f014bb06 7e3343)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Like... FACTNet?

Scientology is the group which sued CAN out of existence, and then turned its focus to FACTNet back in the mid-90s.

FACTNet's version (http://www.factnet.org/Scientology/raid.html)
CNet's version, as posted on Rick Ross's site (http://www.rickross.com/reference/scientology/Scien116.html)

Soo... is JR supporting Scientology's tactics here? And are MCM and EN among the "evangelical" churches that members are being convinced are really cults?

BTW, my hubby flies aircraft - much further drop than from a deer stand, hehe. I have some good Mrs. Fix It stories b/c he was off flying somewhere. The best one probably involves how I single handedly stemmed the Great Washing Machine Flood of Spring 2006 without getting electrocuted. He did come home in time to help clean up after the flood though. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[matt_hatter]

"I look forward to a lively dialogue and debate concerning EN and the CONTRA EN group."

Uly, I noticed that this was posted 2/4/06. There were no posts after that point...am I reading this correctly? If so, I have had my morning "merry heart" experience. If not, I will observe something on the way to Sunday School that will make me smile. Thank you professor. We love you!
Matt

[mdillon]

thanks Mrs.Fix It for pulling this out of a nose dive- hubby would be proud.

after reading those posts, are they really trying to say that we are EN in bizarro world?

dillyeaux

[ulyankee]

or, is EN like... Bizarro Scientology?

and does that make one of you "old timers" Bizarro Superman then?

I say that tongue in cheek b/c I'm almost as "old" as most of you, lol.

[mdillon]

ulyankee please stay on topic.

(see what happens when you hang with the geezers? we have powers)

dillyeaux

[sameo]

A quote of Ron Hubbard..."If you want to make a little money, write a book. If you want to make a lot of money, create a religion."

Hmm...

[ulyankee]

md - you sure do have powers... bizarro powers...!

great quote, sameo.

[matt_hatter]

Sammy, point to ponder, do you think this was in the Weiner's heart? I have always wondered this...was the money thing blatent or in their subconscience? I don't know, honestly. Or was it about the power? Sometimes I think the lure of power is evern stronger than riches. There had to be something nefarious in it all that I just was deceived by. Opinions, anyone?

[flo1151]

matt,
Good question. I don't know the answer. Don't evern know if the Weiners know.

[wisedove]

\quote { That is why I go. Passed on so many deer, couldn't begin to count em. Just me and the Lord.}

I pray that this will be my husband's experience, too, Matt. (And that he will get a deer. Makes feedin him easy.)

I pray that God will meet him up there in that stand as he sits there for hours in a day, and that Jesus will quietly (for He might scare those deer away) fellowship with him there.

thanks for this encouragement, Matt.

[matt_hatter]

"thanks for this encouragement, Matt."

It will happen dovey. I know how a man thinks when he gets alone in the woods. Ask my buddy dilly and others. It is where we meet God. You can't help but think about your Creator.

Got so much venison, can't eat it all. May take my digital camera instead of my rifle this year!

[wisedove]

I can rest about him being out there, then!!

what did i do wrong with my attempt to post a fancy quote? Ulyankee, if you are around, HELP!

[wisedove]

Let me try this again...

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

May take my digital camera instead of my rifle this year!<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Interesting idea! We need the venison, though. feeds him all year. Less trips to the grocery for meat.

[wisedove]

Never mind, ulyankee! I got it!!!

[40days40years]

matt I don't know there were a bunch of differant foundations laid that were even approved by big parts of the charismatic world which is a stamp of approval for Bob to be like he was, when you added it all up that gave Bob carte blanche or however you spell it to be worldly.

You start out with Bob's basic materialistic sales man personality. Add in approved WOF name it and claim it / God wants you to prosper, throw in an emphasis on sacrificial giving (God loves a cheerful giver). Throw in Malachi, not robbing God, tithing, seed faith stuff and your not prospering because your not giving enough and prove God and see if he will not open up the windows of heaven and give you a blessing you can't contain. Then throw in the sheperding stuff so that those under you who are in submission and giving can't blow requests for money off which means your blowing God off. Then throw in guilt, we can't reach lost souls and send people out if you don't give. Maybe throw in a word to "give" after nice music? - With this set up if the WOF stuff does not work you can fall back on the sheperding stuff to twist arms and wallets. Then ofcourse there is no accountability with the sheperding stuff, a child does not hold the parent accountable. Add it all up and wallah.. EN 30 years later.

Maybe if the ministry had come from an evangelical background that emphasized, sinners saved by grace and the blessings of being a modest, humble servant along with the Love of Money is the root of all evil stuff, maybe Bob and the rest would have had a little more moral conflict/conviction that would have restrained them but they use to mock the evangelicals who took that approach. With a heavey drawl they mock and say "I just want to be a poor humble servant, sinner saved by grace Jesus come get me" NOOO your the head not the tale blah, blah, blah

It still would have be an uphill battle with Bobs personality and style but with the sheperding and WOF stuff and our culture in the USA ? Not a chance.

[matt_hatter]

Did we get a lesson on the fancy quote thing? I like it, but as I said yesterday, if it was beyond yesterday, I forgot it.

[matt_hatter]

Hey, closing in on Senior status...could it be tonight? JRJ, ULY, mere putty in my hands now.....LOL

[matt_hatter]

40, I think you nailed it! What a witch's brew! Excellent perspective...and very worthy of your senior member status. Great discussion!

[wildwood_]

Wisedove...No man made building can match the jewel colors of the fall leaves, the majestic arches of the trees, or the sound of a “Living” silence when Jesus walks through His Forest… He was a carpenter and will undoubtedly make sure the stand is level, solid, and only tilts just a little bit when your husband’s drawing down on the deer...just to keep things interesting...You'll still get to feed him! (Anyone here ever listen to Bill Engval’s comic routine on “Taking his wife Deer Hunting?”)

And as to the topic…hmmm….

“Veni, vidi, ego lego, ego duco, Reveni!”
(I came, I saw, I read, I counted, I left.)
Their “Ghost in the Machine” practices selective addition, one person’s posts are exclusively holding on 131…other members posts seem to experience standard addition. Perhaps, this glitch will be corrected soon. I don’t mind a “Ghost” here that loses my posts, or locks me out randomly, but a “Ghost” that selectively forgets basic math skills… that's just too human for my already math-challenged head (I vaguely recall a time I could do my checkbook by hand, without a computer...but it's a distant memory...and arrgghh always a couple of pennies off.)

<font size="+1">Guess I’ll just stay here with my new cult friends.</font>
The pardon of Julius Caesar and Latin scholars everywhere requested for my above butchering of the language...venison anyone???

[flo1151]

40,
Does it make you wonder about the special speakers and guest that we had parading around on stage for years? It was to lend some credibility to the ministry. However if these superstars of christian thought were more men and less butt kissers maybe someone along the way might have said this stuff is off the wall. I also wonder if it is not just the status quo of charismatic churches. I have found it to be the status quo.

Talk amongst yourselves..

flo

[flo1151]

Bob W was like el gwauppo(sp) from the 3 amigos. With all the posterior kissing going on. I know butt kissing to me always smelled like how do you say (butt).

I am currently watching 3 amigos . Brought it to mind.

[40days40years]

Yeah those speakers certainly did lend credibility to MCM I am kind of surprised that EN has nothing like that maybe they don't want the light shined on them? What did the speakers get out of it? the chance to receive applause like they never received it before? or was our MLTS just another stop on the WOF/charismania circuit where they got to be on television and after they were done speaking they could hang out with their friends? Oviously Bob desperatly wanted to be accepted and approved of by main stream charismatics. Copeland, Robertson, Robeson, Oral Robertshttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif and all the lesser lights is pretty impressive. Yeah Flo this is status quo. Of course we were not officially sheperding. Moon also likes to have conferences where you bring in the top dogs from the outside to add credibility. Ofcourse if your going to have a conference might as well try to get the top people to drop by.

[40days40years]

Back to the question: Are we a cult?

We'll if we are I have one thing to say! My cult is better then your cult. Nananaanaanaa!

Just now when I was typing in my username I wrote 40days40cults. No kidding!

[matt_hatter]

flo, funniest part of 3Amigos--ElGuappo's surprise at getting "A SWEATER!!!" for his birthday... a sweater in that god fosaken Mexican desert... too funny.

40 your perspective is just so good. And flo, I have reached the same conclusion. The status quo of the movement...there are so few Jack Hayford's and so many Rod Parsley's. Uneducated hicks who look at education with disdain--because THEY don't need it--they have a pipeline to God. This is what has disturbed me the most.

I am not looking for a great theologian, just a humble man who loves God. My pastor fits that bill first, and his Doctorate of Divinity may be down the list, but I do respect the fact that he has it.

[mdillon]

40-With this set up if the WOF stuff does not work you can fall back on the sheperding stuff to twist arms and wallets.

Bob desperatly wanted to be accepted and approved of by main stream charismatics

HUGE points 40 (am I butt-kissing, flo?) this nails it strongly. Bob had little man's disease and was seeking approval from all over, especially when the GodPolitic demon began to take hold. Special speakers drank the koolaid of thought that convinced them that our <strike>bowel</strike> movement was something "never seen" or a continuation of all revivals past. Hence, I want Power Religions for $5000 Alex. Mattie, it was about the power, the money was there and was a catalyst and a byproduct but we thought "we" were something new that God just thought of. The greed set in early, though, when the ease of money streams snowballed and in the end somebody took the money and ran.

Sameo's powerful quote from Hubbard bears repeating,

..."If you want to make a little money, write a book. If you want to make a lot of money, create a religion."

wow, that shucks it to the cob, power and money,imho, which proves were not a cult

dillyeaux

(Message edited by mdillon on August 20, 2006)

[jesusisawesome]

The people here, a cult? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

Who here has accused me of being a big time Jezzie, masked in sweetness?

Who here has demanded my money and my time?

Who here has threatened me that if I leave, I will never fulfill the will and call of God on my life?

Has anyone here put me through a Kangaroo Court?

Has anyone here tried to keep me from socializing with Christians outside of those posting here?

Those that are now current EN leaders have done all of the above.

In the beginning stages of growth, tares and wheat look the same. As they mature, the wheat bends while the tares stand up straight. What have I found here? Wise men and shepherds, the wheat that has matured and ripened and bows down in humility, not like tares that stand up straight.

Matthew 11:18-19: John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, "He has a devil." The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, "Behold, a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners." But wisdom is justified of her children.

This is sad to say, but I have found more genuine love here from the people posting, in just a few months time, than all of my years added together in this ministry.

[lablady2]

I never attended a staff meeting - a fact for which I am more than a little grateful - and I never had any sort of relationship with Bob and Rose other than to be ignored by them - a fact for which I am more than a little grateful. However, I would like to know if anyone at anytime ever saw in Bob a real love for God and a desire to please Him.

I don't mean a love for the "vision" or "to win souls" but did anyone ever see Bob express any emotion about a personal relationship with God. I never saw this; I saw the vision, the ministry building, the overcoming and taking over the world.

Did anyone ever see Bob humble and broken hearted before God? Once? I would like to believe that it existed at least once upon a time.

[mdillon]

JIA i ditto your feelings about the people who post here. more love here than anywhere I've seen in a lot of years.

lab- every now and then Bob got the "warm fuzzies" when it was obvious that he was wrong about something (sorry, examples escape me) but in my all years I have never been around or evern seen a more driven man.

dillyeaux

[lablady2]

md: kind of sad and pathetic, really. Can't be easy to be a driven person.

[matt_hatter]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

JIA: "As they mature, the wheat bends while the tares stand up straight."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Hot dog! Went back to my factnet lesson plans and found out how to do quotes. JIA, I can now feel good about this terrible posture I have, realizing that it just keeps me closer to the ground, and closer to Him.

[40days40years]

You guys MLTS is like a box of chocalates you never knew what you were going to get. By the mid 80's the main speakers were on some christian network nation wide. This guy at my church told someone to tune in and see his church on tv, the person managed to tune in right when Morris Cerulo was on stage screaming like a maniac, talk about bad timing. LOL this guy was just shaking his head.

I did not make the MLTS when Oral Roberts got very graphic but was that broadcast across the nation? I hope so. Man Bob puts all this work into this thing for a year so he can boost his and MCM's image and then Oral Roberts goes Xrated on him and puts 15 torpedoes into Bobs P.R work, gotta luv it. It's kind of funny when you think about it.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi All- I think from what I saw about Bob, that as things grew ,he then became more driven. But I was not near him that much. I took him to airport earlier, he was even kind to me. I was a new believer then.
As I look in retrospect, with knowing other staff, regional leaders, some national ones. I think that there is a driven part to some people that were not essential driven persons in the natural, so to speak. The manic , driven ones that I knew well were all adult children of alcoholics ( or from families with that dynamic functioning ). I think that the other ones went along with the dynamic. They enabled the leaders, and acquiesced us, the underlings to go along, to keep the party line. The English would call this soldiering on..}

[40days40years]

Mdillon, Bobs success did not seem to carry over into the political realm though. I bet Bob would have loved to be a major player in republican politics. I don't know but I wonder if politicians with real power were afraid of us? We had a generic endorsement from Reagan. I wonder when the zenith of the PR efforts was, mid 80's? MCM would always have it's efforts to promote itself blown out of the water by a negative article on a national scale every 2 years or so it seemed. Maybe that is why EN does not have a major MLTS type of thing? In fact that last meeting they had in Anaheim was surprisingly very sparsely attended if you look at those pictures.

[mdillon]

man, i remember having an out of body (no puns, please) experience when OR went sex teacher. He could have spared himself embarassment years later because i'm sure we could have given him 8 million to just get off stage, then he wouldn't have had to extort all that money with God holding him hostage. 40, it was broadcasted but heavily edited as I recall. I saw it on TV the week after and don't remember seeing the flannel boards.

c-tree thank you for parsing that description, you are right on. Bob was kinder earlier. at my very first staff mtg. i approached Bob during a break (I was practicing CJ) and ever so gingerly corrected him about blowing out a secretary in front of everybody. he was completely approachable and evern apologized in front of all.

but my, how things did change

dillyeaux

[mdillon]

man, i remember having an out of body (no puns, please) experience when OR went sex teacher. He could have spared himself embarassment years later because i'm sure we could have given him 8 million to just get off stage, then he wouldn't have had to extort all that money with God holding him hostage. 40, it was broadcasted but heavily edited as I recall. I saw it on TV the week after and don't remember seeing the flannel boards.

c-tree thank you for parsing that description, you are right on. Bob was kinder earlier. at my very first staff mtg. i approached Bob during a break (I was practicing CJ) and ever so gingerly corrected him about blowing out a secretary in front of everybody. he was completely approachable and evern apologized in front of all.

but my, how things did change

dillyeaux

[mdillon]

man, i remember having an out of body (no puns, please) experience when OR went sex teacher. He could have spared himself embarassment years later because i'm sure we could have given him 8 million to just get off stage, then he wouldn't have had to extort all that money with God holding him hostage. 40, it was broadcasted but heavily edited as I recall. I saw it on TV the week after and don't remember seeing the flannel boards.

c-tree thank you for parsing that description, you are right on. Bob was kinder earlier. at my very first staff mtg. i approached Bob during a break (I was practicing CJ) and ever so gingerly corrected him about blowing out a secretary in front of everybody. he was completely approachable and evern apologized in front of all.

but my, how things did change

dillyeaux

[matt_hatter]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Dilly: when OR went sex teacher.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
Man, way after my time, what the heck did the old dude do??

[wisedove]

hey, dilly-what happens when you triple post? do I get both extra??!!

Matt and wildwood and JIA, you all are being so inspirational today! Thanks! Matt, glad we both figured out how to do fancy quotes...good job! Love your posture quote above.

I am reading and feeling well fed and full today.

[matt_hatter]

dove, I just got off the phone with Dilly and Miltie. We commented on how our factnet buddies have become more than "factnet buddies". Some will question how a group of people can encourage, exhort, and sometimes reprove one another without laying eyes on them. I can attest that you all have become church for me. Call us a cult, who cares, I am having the summer of my life! Praise Jesus! Closing in on 1000...Matt

[lablady2]

Oral Roberts. Nope. Can't do it. Tempting. Can't. No way.

[40days40years]

I just deleted the watered down version I received I think he got it.

[40days40years]

This stuff is not exactly like the preaching I heard as a kid. The minister might talk about watching birds out the window flying in the air and the glory of Gods creation. No 900? foot tall Jesus telling you to build a hospital or whatever.

[40days40years]

Here is a question that Ulyankee alluded to.
O.K can they call us a cult without calling themselves a cult since the top leaders of EN came from Maranatha ? - I think they better stick to bitter, disgruntled former members/leaders.

Maybe this idea of calling us a cult is just Jays idea?

(Message edited by 40days40years on August 20, 2006)

[mdillon]

lablady-Oral Roberts. Nope. Can't do it. Tempting. Can't. No way.

oh labbbbladyyyyyy, yoohooo, got some nice chocolate for you. c'mon, you know you wanna...

A TRIPLE DIPPLE!!!! SWEET BEJUS!! Sorry, dovey, my first triple is dedicated to my friend, the one and only, "Me Three" J.I.A.

Maybe this idea of calling us a cult is just Jays idea?

You know, 40, I think you're on to something. I mean think about it. Jay comes to the Forerunner post 89- the lights are on, but nobody's home. He comes here and gets thrashed by lablady's catheter and EN won't take him. No love, man

trippindillyeaux

[mdillon]

lablady-Oral Roberts. Nope. Can't do it. Tempting. Can't. No way.

oh labbbbladyyyyyy, yoohooo, got some nice chocolate for you. c'mon, you know you wanna...

A TRIPLE DIPPLE!!!! SWEET BEJUS!! Sorry, dovey, my first triple is dedicated to my friend, the one and only, "Me Three" J.I.A.

Maybe this idea of calling us a cult is just Jays idea?

You know, 40, I think you're on to something. I mean think about it. Jay comes to the Forerunner post 89- the lights are on, but nobody's home. He comes here and gets thrashed by lablady's catheter and EN won't take him. No love, man

trippindillyeaux

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hi Matt-Hatter- About OR, I think that it was 84-85 MLTS in Dallas. It was New Years Eve, Or got into a very detailed dialogue on homosexual men's physical relations. It was correct anatomically. I don't recall the lead in. Mothers began to cover children's ears, teenagers were escorted out by parents, or older sibilings or by friends. If the parents were busy with other children, others helped them out of the meeting. It took a few minutes to take in this event happening before us. What a way to spend New Years !}

[lablady2]

I miss all the fun.

[flo1151]

I was back stage with the music group. Did not hear. Have not heard to this day. I just know Bob was mad as little banty rooster.

[lablady2]

I don't suppose cassette tapes of the teaching were on sale following the meeting?

[mdillon]

no, but the videos went like hotcakes


hey, lab,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

dillyeaux

[lablady2]

I'm too inappropriate for my own good. Hence, my return to nursing. Nurses - the worst. My peeps.

Delete. Delete.

[mdillon]

no, but the videos went like hotcakes


hey, lab,

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

dillyeaux

[lablady2]

Oh, videos! Who knew? Tommy Lee and Pam, Paris and whatever, Oral at MLTS....

[matt_hatter]

Damn. I knew we should have stayed in for a few more years.

[40days40years]

I think the lead in was Oral was mad at gays and their activism at his university? that is what I was told.

mdillon jay is in a little bit of a quandry since EN wants to avoid any referance to Maranatha and Jay's site is chock full of Bob and Rose articles and references to MCM, plus he feels a sense of loyalty to them so I guess life is tough.

New proposition here: Is Phil Bonasso responsible for us being a cult or at least being a strong anti cult group? Bear with me here. Look at the earliest abuse articles on this site it appears 70% of them involve Phil in some way, fuel for the factnet fire so to speak. All the comments about mansions and salaries, mission funds and apostles usually mention Phil B. EN is pretty big but look at all the major posters/troublemakeres that know Phil. Mdillon, 1984 and his EN buster blog, mattie the childhood friend, JIA the hand maiden servant girl who got messed over, then a monster thorn named Ginger who was under Phil and all the other earlier posters. Heck even the grandest prize that went public named Big Tommy was under Phil. Really Phil is kind of responsible for all the fun here. Do we owe Phil a debt of gratitude? Does Steve Murrell? without Phil he would not have all these posts to lead him toward reform. PHIL created half of this place, sure Bill Mack started it but Phil provided most of the content and half the posters here. Thanks Phil, EN thanks you too I am sure.

[40days40years]

For instance it seems that half of 84's motivation to speak out with his friends against EN (I can't speak for them of course) was in response to the stuff they read about Phil when they stumbled into this place. The Lord works in mysterious ways I guess.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[lablady2]

matt: Speaking of the Oral Roberts fiasco, I was digging through my stuff and found an old intinerary from MTLS, circa 1983. I must have been breastfeeding because I don't recall it. I have no idea where you where(?).

8:00 a.m.: Speaker to be announced/Secrets of Success, The Dale Carnegie Institute
9:00 a.m.: The Chippendales
10:00 a.m.: Joe Smith
11:00 a.m.: Anna Nicole Smith

Anyone buy the cassettes?

(Message edited by lablady2 on August 21, 2006)

[jesusisawesome]

MDillon: A TRIPLE DIPPLE!!!! SWEET BEJUS!! Sorry, dovey, my first triple is dedicated to my friend, the one and only, "Me Three" J.I.A.

JIA: Glad I'm not the only one. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[wisedove]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Some will question how a group of people can encourage, exhort, and sometimes reprove one another without laying eyes on them. I can attest that you all have become church for me. <!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

I guess you can call it being connected through Him who is sitting at the right hand of the Father and through the precious Holy Spirit. We don't need to lay eyes on each other to be a blessing and connect. He knew us before we were even formed in our mother's womb, and He knows us here.

btw-did i miss your big 1000th post celebration??!!

[miltietoast]

JIA said--Who here has demanded my money and my time?
I, milty have been asking for money to be sent to my paypal acct for two months. You guys and gals don't know the blessing you are missing

[jesusisawesome]

Matt: JIA, I can now feel good about this terrible posture I have, realizing that it just keeps me closer to the ground, and closer to Him.

JIA: The honesty and humility that I have seen in you and others here is refreshing. All of the former pastors that are posting here have meant the world to me. I know that those who have experienced what I have experienced at the hands of "pastors" know what I am talking about. You all are like a breath of fresh air.

[wisedove]

please help this sleep-deprived brain figure out who the former pastor's are...formermaranathapastor-got that one...fill me in on the others, JIA! Thanks! Can't keep track.

I have not read through EVERY thread here..sorry!And, when I read tik's blog, i am still reading it in sections..so, any clarity will help.

dove

[wisedove]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

I, milty have been asking for money to be sent to my paypal acct for two months. You guys and gals don't know the blessing you are missing<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[lablady2]

I, too, would like to know who the former pastors are (one carton of eggs, coming uphttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif). Joking, of course.

I'm lucky and I know it. My exposure to the internal workings of Weiner, Inc. was limited. There's no doubt in my mind that those in leadership have paid a price for their proximity to the throne.

It's all good.

[miltietoast]

Lab --i went to the chippendales meeting cause I thought it would be cartoons about chipmunks.I decided right there that I would rather be a gluttonous fornicator than a homosexual. A bible teacher asked a class what the difference was between adultry and fornication. No one answered, finally a recently saved student slowly slipped his hand up and said,"Sir before I got saved I tried both and frankly can't tell a whole lot of difference between the two." That's calle dgoing oral .Am I off topic?

[lablady2]

"Am I off topic?"

No, miltie, you're just off!

[philiprosenthal]

I am concerned that some people here are not speaking with the fear of God in mind. We must not make light of things as weighty as adultery, fornication and homosexuality. These are serious sins. No jokes about them please.

No, FactNet is not a cult per se, but those who are deluded to think that it is possible to be a practicing homosexual and a Christian are in a cultish form of Christianity that is as bad or worse than anything being criticised here on FactNet. Those in this category, repent, turn to Jesus Christ, read your Bible and reform your mind or get out of the Christian community. Don't masquerade as if you are a Christian. You are not. You are on your way to hell and need to repent.

I already spoke to someone who was so disgusted on reading someone promoting homosexuality here on FactNet that he decided to stop posting here. Please Freedom43 and Formermaranathapastor - please stop polluting the EveryNation thread of factnet with your homosexual heresy. Your heresy is worse than anything inside EveryNation. If you want to - start another thread in the root of Fact to discuss your heresy. I would argue that this belief of yours is a cultish belief. Any so called 'gay church' is a cult church.

[formermaranathapastor]

philip- I am sorry you feel that way, but the heresy of fundamental literalism is what you are involved in, and this also lies at the foundation of MCM/EN. I am sorry for your deception.

I wish and pray for grace to you today.

[matt_hatter]

This is a mesaage board for cult survivors Phillip. Yes, I have been blessed by my factnet brethren. But it is not a Christian chat room. I for one am not concerned about someone who leaves factnet based on the posting. I would tell them tha we live in a real world, get out of your bubble. Do I agree with everyone in here? NO! But I do support their right, and yours to speak. I have even gotten used to Krems...

The debate can be lively at times, but remember, first and foremost this is just a message board for messy people, who happen to share a common background.

My question for you Phillip...where does this insaitable need to control everything come from??

Matt

[mcmstaff78]

former: philip- I am sorry you feel that way, but the heresy of fundamental literalism is what you are involved in, and this also lies at the foundation of MCM/EN. I am sorry for your deception.

Me: This is a cheap shot and isn't even accurate. The condemnation of homosexual activity, along with all sexual sins, does not stem from "fundamental literalism", but has been part of Church teaching from the very beginning. While modern revisionists like to paint with this broad brush (they're really just engaging in ad homimem argumentation), there is no *historic* support for such sexual immorality in any of Church history.

[robert_unknown]

I agree with Phil, and do think that we should keep our focus more on EN than to discuss homosexuality or other contemporary errors. I agree, that their is room on this forum to discuss it, but in my opinion not in the EN part of the forum.

I was tempted to write this, when the discussion started, but decided to stay away from the discussion.

In my opinion we should use this part of the forum to bring light to the hidden secrets of EN that makes EN dangerous and like we unfortunatly experienced.

[matt_hatter]

Let's get a little personal here Phillip...I guess you could call me an adulterer. The bible says that even if you look on a woman with lust you have committed it. What man who has been married for twenty eight years would boldly stand up and say, "I have never done that!!!" I would call him a damn liar. Now, you Phillip..I know you are not married...and you are a healthy heterosexual, I assume...have YOU ever looked on a woman with lust? Satisfied yourself?? Don't lie, now... Look out brother, HELL is calling!

It is called GRACE friend. We all don't deserve it, we all need it, and HE freely gave it to our wretched sinful existence to glorify Him.

[robert_unknown]

thats not the point matt. i think it should be discussed in a different thread of the factNet forum.

[matt_hatter]

Robert, I refer you to Phillip's bomb throwing 528 post. Please direct your suggestion to him as to what thread this should be on. He seems to be very concerned with the order of things. We are all adults in here, I say none of this for salatious shock value, I just am speaking the honest truth, at least for myself.

Jeez, we have been talking about Oral Roberts, one of the father's of modern pentecostlism, go off on a tanget about homosexual activity. What thread should I post on?

[lablady2]

matt: I'll offer up some titles for an appropriate thread:

"reality bites"
"grace spoken here"
"sinners welcome,self-righteous not so much"

I'd love some more suggestions.

[robert_unknown]

matt
ok. i think i understood something wrong.

[matt_hatter]

"not so much"

Spoken like a true Jewish American Princess.

[matt_hatter]

"not so much"

Spoken like a true Jewish American Princess.

[flo1151]

I am not here to straighten EN out. Or to make them see the light. If someone from EN sees these posting fine. But this I believe is for former members however they may come.

I would say I would appreciate a homosexual person posting here as much as a on fire christian. It is irrelevant.

[lablady2]

matt: It rubs off on ya if you hang out at the seders and onegs long enough. Like the book Shalom Ya'll.

[lablady2]

Philip: To me, you represent the core of everything I rejected when I left MCM.

Life and people are messy. They screw up. The don't always do what they should when they should. They will do what you want them to do even less often. You can't impose, threaten, or legislate your morality on people. It won't work because people will come to fear you, and what people fear for long enough, they will hate.

If you don't have a deep love for people just as they are, you don't have any business working with them in a ministerial position. Do everyone a favor and take a job as an accountant. There are enough broken people out there already.

[matt_hatter]

Robert, I have admired you very much. Your willingness to get in here when we are speaking with so much slang and American idioms must be difficult at times. I hope I did not come across in a angry manner with you. You are always my dear friend in Christ, brother!

Matt

[miltietoast]

seders and onegs? Is that yiddish for cedar logs ?
Just glad to be here don;t think I have an agenda,althoughsome comments stir me more than others.Do not care(sorry krems) about EN.Maybe i am abusing post.
Jay vs Mattie round 1 of 15
My 2 cents, openly practicing bragadocious gluttons,swindlers fornicators,thieves,adulterers,homosexuals and idolaters are welcome here maybe not in the kingdom of God

[freedom43]

I’m sorry if my “presence” has upset some folks here. I just want you to know that I am not here to promote any agenda and have no real desire to argue repeatedly about homosexuality/sexual orientation issues or even bring it up, necessarily. I wasn’t the first person to raise the issue but feel compelled to “speak up” when I see such narrow interpretations of Scripture that deny Christ to whole segments of our population and deny that many “mainstream” Christian churches are truly Christian because they don’t take the same hard-line anti-gay approach as Maranatha/EN/Morning Star and some others who post here. It reminds me of the elitism, legalism, etc. that we all experienced at their hands.

I gave 12 years of my life to Maranatha and yes, I do think avoiding my orientation may have been what helped drive me into the group to begin with. I had demons cast out of me, and trying to overcome that was a big part of my experience there on a personal level. At one point or another, I was told to wear make up, how to wear my hair, what kind of clothes to wear, who I could/should spend time with, to change my mannerisms, etc. So, in some ways, I do feel it is relevant to the Maranatha experience. As I have stated elsewhere on this board, this issue had nothing to do with my leaving Maranatha, and I never “stumbled in that way” during my time there -- though I did see others who were severely rebuked and “turned over to Satan” in front of the congregation for engaging in homosexual acts.

As you know, while we all pay lip service to “all sin is the same in God’s eyes” and “we’re all sinners saved by grace” and “love the sinner, hate the sin,” conservative Christianity in this nation seems to have a special disdain for homosexuals and saves its harshest rhetoric and expends an astronomical amount of energy and resources against homosexuality. I find that disturbing on many levels and painful. I can’t really judge people for it though. I used to be one of them. Personally, I think our society could be a lot better off if that energy were focused elsewhere. I know there are others who have been posting here much longer than me who have very strong opinions on this issue. Since I began posting about a month ago and “came out” last week, I do think some folks have toned down the rhetoric a bit, for which I’m grateful. My hope is that we can continue to have civil and honest dialogue without sending anyone into apoplexy. I appreciate the honesty and humility I have encountered in many of you, and I welcome your thoughts as to how we can do that.

[robert_unknown]

thanks matt, no problem. i am thankfull, that you guys take me as i am, and for all the encouragement and understanding here at factNet... unfortunatelly all my friends here in Austria have left the country during the last years becaused of jobs or spouses... so you guys sometimes are the only christians i can talk to in a normal an mature matter...

i admit, that sometimes its difficult for me to understand you guys - specially the "funny bunny" thingy threads (dont even understand the titles really)... thats the reason i dont show up there... dont understand ONE word... ;)

[lablady2]

Freedom,

This is just my opinion, but I have said since I left MCM that right-wing fundamentalist extremism (of any religion) is based in fear. Those who practice extremism fear God irrationally and they cloak their fear (hate?) in extreme religious service, attempting to please and appease God. They fear what God may do to them and the planet they live on if they don't threaten and coerce others into living the kind of lives they deem acceptable to God.

How many times have we heard from the mouths of these preachers about the judgment that God is going to bring on this nation because of abortion or homosexuality? It's not the sin or the sinner these people care about (as many of us have experienced first hand), it's the fact that they believe that they, too, will suffer some loss when God pours out his judgment. It is a religion of self preservation, not love.

Fear, hate, and control walk in lockstep together. Only a true experience with grace and love can break that stride.

Just my humble opinion

[lablady2]

robert: don't feel bad. I don't get those titles either (but they do amuse me). I just pretend like I do so people won't think I'm stupid. Like they don't know.

[flo1151]

lab,
I didn't think you were suppose to get it. They don't know what they are talking about. I do understand RR. I am not privy either to some of their coded language. So how does that make you feel you bunch of funny bunnies?http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif

[flo1151]

BTW
Awaiting B sample test to see if we are a cult.

[40days40years]

I don't know lab it seemed like people were afraid to touch that mountain in the old testament and for good reason. Honestly I think the conservative fundamentalists have a point. There is a culture war and liberalism is it's own religion that gets special protection in America, abortion is their holy sacrament and the traditionalists are just suppose to be good boys and smile as the ACLU and others dismantle everything they hold dear in heart and home? The left despises Christianity and the bible make no mistake about that. Guys like Falwell and Robertson are old men now but they have seen what they believe in attacked their whole lives, in the courts, in the media, in the schools, in the popular culture, that is why they decided to fight back, good for them.

[lablady2]

I respect your opinion 40 days and your right to share it.

How do you feel about "spiritual" abortion? Like pastors or other religious people who strive to birth new babies into the kingdom (numbers and tithes) and then systematically destroy them spiritually. I'd like to see the church address that in their leadership before they take on a 15 year old frightened girl. You know, remove the beam......

I am not pro-abortion or pro-homosexuality, by the way. I just think all sins should be weighed as equal. You and I are as guilty as anyone else.

[40days40years]

Well MCM/EN is more extreme in that you can't leave and feel good about it most of the time in fact most just quietly slink away and hope their not walking out on God or cursing themselves. A definition I heard of a cult is that if they don't tell you your walking into a cage when you join and then their going to close the door then its a cult. The question Hassan asked was if you could leave without any repercussions would you choose to be in this place with your own free will? I think what happened to the 15 year old is more akin to spiritual rape. You can belong to a lot of groups you may not agree with but if they don't use control to keep you in then they are not a cult.

I do understand people not liking fundamentalist much of the time, many of them are jerks but when they warn about their rights and religion being attacked I tend to believe them. Since I am a repub I tend to stand up for them if everyone is piling on.

[j2theperson]

I was born and raised in the Christian subculture, and it has brought me an intense ammount of grief and pain. On a purely emotional level, I sometimes think Christians are getting what they deserve from the government and the left wingers of today. If Christians were nicer people maybe (maybe) they wouldn't be so despised.

To sort of echo what LabLady said, I felt very demeaned by the way Christians treated me. The Christian adults in my life poured themselves into their causes, but when they were faced with me--a living, breathing flesh-and-blood human--they had no time and no energy to minister to me. Because of the way they treated me I suspect that their activism efforts were not about God at all. If they had really started Christian schools and campaigned against abortion because they had God's heart, then that same heart would have prompted them to treat me with compassion. But instead, they responded to me in a very selfish and arrogant way; therefore, I think that their Christian activism probably also sprang out of selfishness and arrogance.

I sometimes wonder if it's not a good thing for the church that our culture is becoming more paganised. If nothing else, it might cause people to really think through what Christianity is all about and become Christians because they really believe in Jesus and not just because it's a socially acceptable thing to do and makes them feel vaguely good about themselves.

[40days40years]

I definantly understand that J-2. In fact I like modern movies much more then the sanitized oldies from 60 years a go but people are religous and the culture will have its own religoun whatever that may be. Cultures that are heavily Christian are usually pretty cool places to live, cultures that were Marxist or Islamic today? Not so good. A completely pagan culture like in old Greece had a lot of injustice and exploitation going on with supplying girls for their temples for instance. Is it such a bad thing to have a bunch of party pooper church ladies raising a stink about it and shutting those places down and trying to change the culture or fighting it? That is a strange example but I see why people are concerned about the paganization of the culture and what it can lead to.

[lablady2]

Just to be clear, all I'm saying is that the church leadership cannot ask any more of its congregants than it is willing to do itself. Almost every parent would agree that "do as I say and not as I do" isn't very effective when it comes to raising kids, and it's even less effective when you're dealing with intelligent adults.

You want me to lead a sinless life? Show me how instead of pointing out my shortcomings.

(Message edited by lablady2 on August 21, 2006)

[40days40years]

But you can't live a sinless life lab, usually this is where jrj says your sin is good because it leads you to God and then jbk comes in and says yes you can live a sinless life.

MCM/EN does ask more from its congregants that it is willing to do itself. All humans are hypocrites but EN/MCM leaders at the top tend to be super hypocrites, the creme de la creme or kreme? LOL !

[wisedove]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

thats the reason i dont show up there... dont understand ONE word... ;)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Robert, I beg to differ with you. You were being a "funny bunny" right here on this very thread! That's all there is to it! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

[dust]

Before I say anything you need to know my background. I am a bible believing Christian who holds the bible as the standard.

I buried my two closest relatives of my life in 1992 and 1993, cousin and brother, who were homosexuals and died of AIDS. I was with them until the end and I was their MAJOR support system. I did several eulogies for homosexual men who died of AIDS, as I had many friends and patients die of AIDS, and I’ve been active in raising money for the disease.

When I lost my brother and my cousin, my world seemed to end, and there aren’t words to describe the empty places in my life from their loss. This happened to me as young woman and it changed my life forever, as I have never fully recovered from so much death at once.

I would have given everything I have if my brother had known the Lord at an early age and chosen a life of celibacy before he ran around and contracted AIDS.

He died knowing the Lord, but it was a horrible death. He lost his house, car, career, skin, hair, and finally his life. And I lost my precious brother who I can say so many wonderful things about. But, I will also have to say he lived in sin and it killed him. It killed him NOT JUST PHYSICALLY, but EMOTIONALLY. He didn’t fare well in this lifestyle. It was hard on him because it’s a very hard life. A celibate life loving Jesus Christ has to be a better choice.

A very good friend who was a lesbian helped me a lot when others wouldn’t.

However, having said all that, I must say this. I had a serious, upclose and personal view of the homosexual community. And, there is a LOT of pain; however, I can see why this was not God's design. I saw the suffering INSIDE the community. And, no one can talk about it, because they will be labeled hateful and homophobic. Neither is true in my case.

I am NOT going to judge what someone does. However, if I am asked, I must show to ANYONE whether they are gay or straight what God has said. That's all I can do.

[lablady2]

Dust, I am so sorry for your loss. Thank God your brother and cousin had you to care for them.

[dust]

Dust..Continued...

There has to be room for Christians on this board who are here to be allowed to be a CHRISTIAN. Christians have certain beliefs based on scripture. We don't choose to decide what sin is okay or not okay. The scriptures make that choice for us.

Prior to my salvation, I had committed every sin in the book, BUT, I must credit JESUS with a changed life since. There has been a MAJOR difference in my actions. I couldn't live the my prior life after I got saved, nor would I want to. Am I completely sin free? No, but, I have an awareness of my sins, and I live a repentive lifestyle. I can't, as a Christian who loves Jesus Christ, keep on doing what I did before. I know what a changed life looks like. I can't say, it's okay to live with your boyfriend, God's grace covers it. It's wrong for many reasons. I know.

The older I get, I am more fearful of presuming on God’s good grace. I presumed a LOT when I was younger, and I remember how I mentally rationalized my behavior and I pointed fingers at the Christians calling them judgemental and hateful because they chose to live a standard I didn't want to live by.

I now agonize over my actions and reactions, even writing this. I don’t set out to hurt anyone, but I’m not seeing here a tolerance for the Christian belief system. Homosexuality is a sin in the Christian faith. So is adultery, pornography, pride, gossip, etc. We are not to choose any such things as lifestyles. We are to live by a standard, not one we personally set, but one that God has set for us.

I've wanted to stay out of this, because I knew that if I brought up what the bible said about homosexuality, I might be persecuted and framed as a hateful, judging person. But I am neither, and I have a real heart for homosexuals. And, I can love them, be friends with them, etc. And, I've been in the position many times to ministry to them, and I have no way (according to scriptures) to make it be acceptable in Christianity.

And, you don't know how badly I've wanted to make it be acceptable. And, you don't know how much I've suffered personally because of this.

The issue then is, what do we do with sin? Do we applaud it? Do we refrain from it? What sacrifice do we make for eternal life? Being a Christian for ANY Christian is about making tough choices. I’ve made a few since I’ve been saved.

I’ve been persecuted many times for my beliefs. I lost a very good freelance position for talking about the gospel at a dinner off project hours. Before marriage, I had many male friends, and I gave them up. I knew it wouldn’t be good for my marriage. Tough, but necessary choices. It’s hard to live the Christian life, but I found it much harder to live a life apart from Jesus Christ.

[lablady2]

Dust, I don't think you have to make any apologies for your belief. If that's what you believe, that's what you believe.

This is not a religious board. It's a board about cults. I think there's as muchroom here for a Christian to express what he or she believes as there is for a Jew to express his or her belief.

I don't feel the need to defend or apologize for my beliefs. They are mine and mine alone. If someone thinks I'm wrong, that's fine by me. I alone pay the consequences for my actions; I learned that in MCM.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Dust-Well said ! Thank you.}

[flo1151]

Dust,
The truth stands for itself. With your personal experience it is said with love and concern.

flo

[freedom43]

Dust: I am sorry to hear of the loss of your brother and cousin. I know words are inadequate to understand the pain and suffering he felt and what you and your family have gone through. AIDS is such a devastating disease.

My family lost my oldest brother to an accidental drug overdose three years ago. He had become a Christian and was trying to walk with the Lord but still struggled with addiction. I know my family will never be the same.

[miltietoast]

Dust thank you for being more diplomatic than me. I have always been bull in china shop. lab, sometimes we pay for the consequences of others.Dust probably more aids death related to your cousin and brother. My heterosexual relative died of aids from a blood transfusion and a good friend of mines daughter was killed in a car wreck Sat morning when her drunk cousin drove through a dead end road at 80 miles and hour.The grace of God,which brings salvation to all men has appeared,teaching us that,denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we shoud live soberly,righteously and godly in this present world.tit2-11-12. Man I wish that scripture would vanish.So grace teaches us these things? If we are not being taught these things maybe we have no clue what grace is. Counterfeit grace ?

[freedom43]

Dust: I agree that there is A LOT of pain in the GLBT community (A LOT), and there is certainly an unseemly side. The first time I went into a gay bar, I looked around and thought "Are these scary folks really my people? NO WAY!!!"

Some would say that stigma from society is a major contribting factor to the kind of self hatred that leads to self destruction -- drug abuse, promiscuity etc. -- that you see in the GLBT community. I think it is likely a combination of that and that there are no "family" or taming influences on gay men. Straight men tend to "settle down" once they are married and have children. Marriage and women help tame them, and, of course, a relationship with God tames men (and women). Remove those things from the equation -- and well, you get the picture.

It is sad to me that so many gay people feel so hurt and rejected by society and organized religion that they wouldn't dream of stepping foot in a church -- and as a result might not ever experience the truth of Jesus Christ. On the flip side, I am glad that there are many "Christian churches" out there who do not accept that Christianity excludes gay people and instead, welcomes and accepts them. My partner's mother sings in the choir of such a church. And, I am heartened by testimonies of gay men and lesbians who have been transformed by the love of Christ. I realize that you don't believe that that is possible and that that is not where you and many others who post here are, and I am learning to accept that. I wish you well.

[matt_hatter]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

ROBERT: i admit, that sometimes its difficult for me to understand you guys - specially the "funny bunny" thingy threads (dont even understand the titles really)... thats the reason i dont show up there... dont understand ONE word... ;)<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
I agree with dove, your exchanges on Aug 19 on this thread were some of the funniest stuff I have read in weeks. You get it totally brother. Great wit and charm...Loved it!
Matt

[dust]

Tell me more about those transformations. What I experienced with the freinds and clients I had in the lesbian community was what I call a hybrid Christianity. They acknowledged Jesus, maybe even went to church, but also mixed it up with tarot card reading, astrology, past lives and/or other types of new age theology and occultism. This hybrid belief system was pretty wide spread.

Your experiences may be completely different.

Also, you talk about hurt and rejection. A lot of that happens INSIDE the community, which in the lesbian community is very closed off from society at large.

You say that you realized I don't believe it is possible for gays to be tranformed by the love of Christ. I never said that.

The crux of Christianity is transformation, by love, by the cross. Salvation is free, but it costs everything. It cost ME everything. I had to give up my career, my world view, my friends, almost everything. My world went upside down. But, I went from death to life. That is what Christianity is. I think there is a misunderstanding of getting saved and everything is bliss.

There is sacrifice and we must take caution about what Miltie coined "counterfeit grace." I did that for many years, "I was a good person. I acknowledged Jesus Christ." But, it was cheap counterfeit faith on my part. Maybe because my life so radically changed, I am so passionate about what I know Jesus can do for ANYONE. Yes, I do believe his love transforms. It transformed me. That's all the proof I need. And, I want others to experience what I have experienced in going from death to life.

So I do want to hear about those tranformations.

[nicknak]

Freedom, you are welcome here!! I am so sorry for your loss..I too lost someone very dear to me from AIDS. It is a horrible thing to witness.

I want everyone to feel welcome on FactNet. This should remain an open forum. Sin is sin..no matter the sin. I am so sorry for your MCM days when they tried to change you - your mannerisms, dress etc. I was guilty of doing the same thing - you may have been one of the dear ones that I harmed, I do not know. Please forgive me for anything I may have said or done that caused you pain and humiliation and accept my apology. I look back on those days as I discipled people with horror..I was so ignorant of God's love. I do not want to be guilty of the same thing on this venue.

As I have said so many times, I am chief of sinners. I feel I am coming out of a long dark tunnel into the light. I am still walking through the fog..but their are rays of light shining through. Thank you, Jesus!!

[wisedove]

My short experience with the GRACE of God.

Grace to me, once again, does not mean I am able to continue in sin, but it means I have the overcoming power of it in my life.

Example from today. My husband and I went to bed angry at each other (not a good, Christlike thing for each of us to do.)I felt he made a pretty rude comment about me to his dad on the phone. I let him know that I thought this was rude. Well, we get up, and get going in our morning routine. I'm in the process of writing a book titled "I'm not o.k., You're not o.k. (without Jesus.) And, my husband and I are in the kitchen ignoring each other, going about our morning. I knock over HIS left over drink and it goes all over the entire counter. (I was being impatient b/c I wanted to make my coffee, and he and HIS things were in my way.) spilling the drink was an accident, but only b/c I pushed his things out of my way.

he made another snide comment "you just couldn't wait!" of course, I retaliate with "you just couldn't pick up your dishes from last night." and off he went to work.

Here's where God's grace comes in. God gave me the grace to pick up my phone, (a mere 3 hours later-for SOME reason, we love to wallow in our bitterness just a LITTLE while...) and call my husband to offer to bring him a smoothie at work, and to just tell him I love him. THAT took Grace. When my FLESH wanted to enjoy being angry, and wanting God to just DEAL WITH HIM, it took Grace to make that simple phone call.

Grace-unmerited favor. For me, it is the ABILITY to make it day to day with all of our problems, and truly show the love of CHRIST. It is the ABILITY to humble myself and walk in forgiveness. It is the ABILITY to ask for forgiveness when justifiably, I may have not been in the wrong (at least not originally.) I'm learning that my REACTIONS to other's offenses (even here on the board) is where the rubber meets the road. Staying humble in the face of severe offense (not just petty ones like today) takes GRACE.

[lablady2]

wise: Sounds like my house some mornings.

Grace? Maybe that is grace, and maybe it's just semantics, but for me, restoring my relationship with my husband after an episode like that isn't so much grace as it is a decision of my will. I do it whether or not I feel graceful or have grace but because our relationship is important. For me, it's just the right thing to do.

Maybe this is just the perspective of someone who is probably much OLDER than you. Maybe grace has just turned in to habit (well, not every time).

[wisedove]

hey, ll!
thanks for your thoughts. Oh, for me, when it has been a lifestyle of condemnation and emotional and verbal abuse amongst other things, yes, it takes GRACE for me to walk in love with my husband most of the time.
Sad, but true. But, once again, God is a faithful God, and He is doing a work, and He is faithful to complete it.

It does take much grace for me to walk through areas that have been a constant struggle. And, yes, it IS the right thing to do (restore a relationship with your spouse). But let me tell you, when you have had HELL come against you and your relationship, areas that SEEM to be a NO BRAINER like this morning become mountains...when you struggle against the major attacks of the enemy as we have to break our marriage apart on more than a dozen occasions.

Praise God for all of the people out there who don't need God's grace in these small areas of their lives and their walk! I thank Him that it is sufficient for me in every way!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[miltietoast]

wise my post got erased,probably your post lol
your story is reflected every day grace with little feet. love your honesty
grace =simple but not easy

[wisedove]

thanks, miltie! wrote you on another thread, or maybe it is this one. who knows. I still can't keep up.

made a comment above:I'm in the process of writing a book titled "I'm not o.k., You're not o.k. (without Jesus.) here is what God said to me..."Walk this out. you are writing this book, and you will have to constantly walk this out."

(the walking it out part is that I actually NEED JESUS in the simple area of walking in a forgiving attitude towards whomever..I'm NOT o.k. without Him.) And I'm sure HE will keep reminding me of that.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[lablady2]

wise, I know the walk of abuse and condemnation. You can find part of the story on my blog.

As I said, I think I'm probably older....much older. I hope it gives you hope that as you walk these things out in grace they just become a part of your walk. I think that's what I was really trying to say, but in rereading my post, I didn't exactly come out that way. My apologies if I offended you.

Never post before your second cup of coffee.

[wisedove]

No, you didn't offend me, ll! <blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Never post before your second cup of coffee<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> THAT's where my error has been! Off to STARBUCKS!
THANKS! God Bless you, lablady!
I haven't read all of your blog yet. Can't seem to keep up with all of the different ones. I'm not writing a blog. I'm writing a book! Most of you probably can be, too!

I'll go have my second (1st starbucks cup) but second cup of coffee for the day, and post again later!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

[freedom43]

Dust – yep – I’ve met all kinds in the lesbian community – pagans, wiccans, those into goddess worship, tarot card readers, folks who think they are psychic raki healers and thought they were Shirley MacLaine in a past life. (I kid you not.) I even made the mistake of dating someone who was into reading tarot cards and hearing from ghosts. (Big mistake, dating her!) Craziness. Re: testimony -- I’ll start with mine. After leaving Maranatha, I wasn’t sure what I believed about anything any more. Add to that trying to avoid with my sexual orientation and I was a real mess. I don’t want to get into all the sordid details here, but I did my share of drinking to excess and sleeping around. I was looking for love and self acceptance, but what I really needed was to come back to Christ and know God’s love and acceptance. I met with an Episcopal priest (no, not one of the gay ones) and asked her how she thought we should define sin. She said she thought sin is anything that separates us from God. I had heard that verse a million times in the context of Maranatha. I had always viewed it as the little or big sin in my life (homosexuality or whatever) separating me from God. That day I realized that my own self hatred for being gay was the biggest thing separating me from God. I knew I could no longer live that way.

Since I came to that realization, my life has turned around and come into focus. I walk each day praying for God’s grace and trusting that Jesus’ sacrifice was enough. God’s love and peace have flooded my heart, and I no longer have to try to escape by drinking or pursuing love and acceptance through sex. And, I live my life each day trying to walk in love for God and my neighbor. I consider myself a sinner -- far from perfect and far from a model Christian. But, I no longer see my orientation – or acting on it in my long-term relationship -- as what makes me a sinner or separates me from God. I was literally shocked and humbled (and laughed) recently when a straight Jewish woman I know told me I was the "most Christian person” she knew.

Another life that has been changed is that of my partner. It is her story to tell, but a crisis in her personal life led her to church and prayer and a faith in Christ that has literally changed her and given her hope in life. It was our common values and faith that drew us together. I have learned so much from her about simple, common sense faith in God and would not be in a relationship with her if we did not share those common values.

I know of others who have been changed through faith in Christ and through the combination of that and self acceptance. Also, I’ve read stories of others in books and on the internet. I can try some links – if you are interested, but I am not sure how to post links. I will see if I can figure it out.

[nicknak]

Freedom - thank you for your post!! I am hugging you through the computer lines!!

[wisedove]

PICadilly NOW? as in "u can PICk who gets to go to your house parties? never answered my question from above, dill-pickle. That's o.k., I can settle for doin the cleanin up!

Hi, Sameo-you still crack me up. (That could have been a separate post, in order to increase my membership status, but I see how DILLY-O is doin it! All those double-dippers-he's just tryin to catch up with MATT and JrJ REAL FAST!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

[formermaranathapastor]

Freedom- Thank you so much for your powerful testimony. I wish all people who have sexual or gender issues could see it and realize what the real problem is: How we view ourselves.
May you and your partner be blessed.

[flo1151]

freedom and formermaranthapastor,

I believe everyone has the right to be on this chat line regardless of any sexual preference. I do think that there is a difference in being on this and being in christ's church.

I am speaking as one who does not even attend church but I do believe that a person that continues in sin whether it is sexual impurity of anykind with no desire to change cannot call themselves christian.

I am not saying commiting sin but to think that homosexuality is not sin is not biblical. Can God forgive? Yes. But what is true repentance. You first must believe that something is wrong. But to say that you can be a practicing homosexual and think that God finds it allright is deception.

You can go start your own church outside of christian orthodoxy(which has been done)ie metro church. But to say that the bible says its fine is error. No different than a person continuing to commit adultry and thinking that it is OK. It is not. The church I'm sure has not reached out to the gay and lesbian community as it maybe should. But any church if it is biblically based would have a hard time condoning homosexuality. Homosexuals are some of my favorite people to work for. They are smart, have good taste and are apleasure to be around. I have no problem having gays and lesbians in my house. But don't call yourself a christian. Don't say you are married to your partner as well. The bible is too clear on this issue for you to think any differently.

Former,
I saw on another sight on factnet that you say you are straight. Is that true? If true what is your crusade here.

[40days40years]

Yeah fmp that is kind of confusing. How does the transexual community define straight? Do you use your original gender to define the term "straight" or do you use your new gender to define that term? If you like women now does that make you kind of a lesbian but not really? I figured you brought this out freely in your previous posts and answered Bill's questions so you would not mind.

[mdillon]

hey dovey, what are you doing over here on the cult thread?, you're supposed to be back over there cleaning my house. YES you were there at the party because everybody CRASHED my house. I never asked you to be the ONLY one to clean up, you just drank straight espressos all night and have been cleaning ever since-- see you don't even now where you are, get back over there.

doveysontodoubledippindillyeaux