Was Jim Laffoonbs net prophecy to His People actually from God

[philiprosenthal]

Was Jim Laffoon's net prophecy to His People actually from God?

While MorningStar was still courting His People, Jim Laffoon came and gave a prophecy about a Net at the Cape Town church. He repeated it at the Jo-burg church. Essentially the theme is for the need for loyalty to Paul Daniel and not to say anything bad about the leaders, because that might fray relationships. The reason was that there was a great enormous harvest of dragging a net across whole continents ahead if we were just all loyal to Paul Daniel. Needless to say, Paul Daniel liked this prophecy. He had it printed in the church magazine and it was turned into a play which was acted out on stage by the drama group. The tape was repeated at various services. Most leaders also liked the prophecy, because it made it sound like His People was really the most important ministry around.

At the time, I was saying the opposite. I was saying that His People was backsliding, that it was losing the strength to challenge sin. Needless to say, I was unpopular and I lost some friends. As I saw more and more signs of compromise I became increasingly vocal in calling the church to repent. But the theme tune at the time was pride - driven in part by Jim Laffoon's Net prophecy.

The prophecy also I think played a major role in His People's courtship with MorningStar and the ultimate decision to join.

http://www.speedyshare.com/616711922.html

Download and it at the link above.

Jim makes it sound as if he is predicting His People's expansion into 'the hard places', but actually, at the time the prophecy was given - His Peoples period of expansion was peaking. After that we went into decline.

Now my question is 'Is Jim Laffoon going to apologise for his misleading prophecy?'

[philiprosenthal]

JER 23:16 This is what the LORD Almighty says:
"Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes.They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD. JER 23:17 They keep saying to those who despise me, `The LORD says: You will have peace.' And to all who follow the stubbornness of their hearts they say, `No harm will come to you.' JER 23:18 But which of them has stood in the council of the LORD to see or to hear his word? Who has listened and heard his word?"

Interestingly, Paul Daniel and various other leaders also called me a prophet, although I did not go about saying that about myself. Nevertheless, he did not like what I was saying: That His People needed to repent of making peace with the devil or face God's judgment.

That is still what I am saying.

[miltietoast]

Now my question is 'Is Jim Laffoon going to apologise for his misleading prophecy?'
No,at best God changed His mind. What a fickle God we serve

[john_r_jones]

Jim Lafoon is a prophet for hire just like others are apostles for hire or other ministry positions, such as teachers. Their ministry appeals to the flesh, it speaks of power and enormity nothing Jesus ever did. There is no regard for the people they affect either way, the ministry they perform is ingratiating and self serving. It uses the babes in Christ as fodder for their own aims and goals, they feed on the sheep I think that's called a carnivore ie. wolf.
John

[cupatea]

Jer 14:13,14
13 Then I said: "Ah, Lord GOD, behold, the prophets say to them, `You shall not see the sword, nor shall you have famine, but I will give you assured peace in this place.'" 14 And the LORD said to me: "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name; I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds.

[dust]

Phlilp,
I've heard the net sermon. I think this went worldwide.

You have commented about a prophet's position to be one of truth. I keep getting this vision of Jim Lafoon losing his protection from God for removing that girdle.

His prayer requests (that were emailed out) were very heavy and too often revolved around his personal health. I have compassion, and yet I would be disturbed thinking, "Jim, you are weighing yourself down under the heavy yoke of protecting this ministry."

I am feeling the need to WARN Jim Lafoon that he must return to His First LOVE, he must become broken in this love, and that if he doesn't embrace this brokeneness at the feet of God, he will shut out the voice of God. That is not a silence easily endured.

[philiprosenthal]

Dust

When did you hear the net sermon? The linked article is not just a sermon. It makes it sound like a fresh word from God specifically for His People and those following Paul Daniel - not for anyone else. How do we explain this? Or is it just a nice prophecy good to repeat because it gets you invited back. Were you made to understand it was a special word from God for your church? Is it just accidental that God happened to give the same word to two different churches through the same 'prophet'?

* If anyone has time to transcribe the attached files and post the text on this thread, that would be much appreciated.

[robert_unknown]

i will have to go to the cellar tonight and dig the thing up again. i hate to do it, but i´ll do it anyhow, m8...

[robert_unknown]

jim Laffon said, in the beginning of his sermon about the vision he had, that an Angel came to him THIS morning and gave him THIS particular word for HisPeople! I hope i dont confuse it with another word, but if my memory is wright, it was together with the Net-Vision!

[philiprosenthal]

robert - you don't need to go look for the prophecy - here it is for download:

http://www.speedyshare.com/616711922.html

[robert_unknown]

thx. good work, phil http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Interestingly he says, that this word was SPECIFIC for HisPeople! And i do remember refering to an angelic visitation that brought the word to him.

Isn´t it a shame that he preached the same message to other churches, like Dust ist saying? where was this dust?

Isn´t it sad that Luther Mancao and Rice Brooks did exactly the oposite of Laffoon was prophecying? they destroyed the net of love, which was already spun in the HP church. They destroyed many year-old relationships in this churches.

Everyone can draw his own conclusions about this:

- Prophet of the movement preaching "specific" "word of God" to different churches.
- Leaders of EN working against this word
- Prophecy NOT fullfilling itself

Now, what the heck is wrong here?

If EN wouldn´t emphasis so much on this kind of prophesies then everything would be allright. But in the beginning and during the merging process ofn HP/MSI, Laffon was everywhere prophesiing over everything and everyone.

so i encourage every reader to draw their own conclusions!

[philiprosenthal]

Robert. The problem that is wrong here I think is that we have:
* A phoney false prophecy. Laffoon just made up a prophecy which he knew Paul Daniel and the congregation would like, but had no relationship with what God was saying to the church at the time. A true prophecy would have been about the need for repentance to ward off judgement. The whole thing was and is junk.
* Also, some phoney false leaders playing games.

[philiprosenthal]

Robert.

* Jim Laffoon gave a pastor I know who was thinking about leaving a 'prophecy' about why he needed to stay 'rooted where he was planted' in EveryNation in order to bear fruit. So the pastor stayed on a few years very frustrated, until eventually he left. He is very happy having left.

* You said yourself on the 'Sean Morris' thread that Laffoon gave a prophecy about you being an apostle.

It sounds to me as if Laffoon's prophecies just dance to the tune of whatever he thinks the ministry will like and appreciate.

MIC 3:11 Her leaders judge for a bribe, her priests teach for a price, and her prophets tell fortunes for money. Yet they lean upon the LORD and say, "Is not the LORD among us? No disaster will come upon us."


Do 'nice prophecies' help fund his big coastal house, five star hotel bills and first class flights?

Does anyone have any personally verifiable record of a prophecy by Laffoon which was accurate and which he didn't have some special inside information or whatever?

[robert_unknown]

phil, i didn´t defend Laffoon. ;)
There is nothing to defend. He gives wrong "prophesies", that bind people to the EN ministry. thats all it is.

Everyone may judgte if this is from God.

[philiprosenthal]

I've done an Optical Character Recognition scan on the 'prophecy', from 'On Solid Rock', His People Magazine, March 1998.

JIM LAFFOON's WORDS FOLLOW:

"On my first night in South Africa, I was praying in my hotel room and the Lord gave me a prophetic word in the form of a vision for His People Ministries. I saw before me the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Africa. The wind was blowing over it and there were white caps on it. All of a sudden, much to my amazement, I saw something beginning to emerge out of the ocean. At first, I could only see huge ropes and the next thing I knew, I saw a gigantic net. It wasn't an ordinary sinking net though: it was so massive in its diameter that it would have taken a whole fleet of fishing boats to pull it. As it came up, I said to myself, "the net is so massive that it could be pulled over a whole continent". Then the Lord spoke to me and said: "It is His People Ministries. I'm pulling them through the ocean of humanity. I'm pulling them over continents."

As I looked, the net was being pulled up out over the ocean. On the other end of the rope I saw Pastor Paul Daniel as the leader, pulling on the net. I also saw other faces alongside him who had their hands on the net. I watched the net come up onto the shore of Africa. I was struck by the fact that there were no fish and asked: "Lord, why are You pulling the net up at this time, yet there are no fish in the net? If You are pulling the net up and there are no fish, it is not about harvest, but about something else." The next thing I knew, the net was pulled ashore and strung out on posts to dry. It was so immense, it could have surrounded Cape Town. As I walked along the net, the Spirit of God said to me: "In this hour, I am pulling the net of His People up out of the water, not for harvest, but to prepare this ministry and to prepare these people for the greatest harvest they would ever know. In this hour, in this ministry and in the churches, cells groups and campuses, I am walking through the relationships of this ministry. I am walking through the lives of this ministry and I am searching very carefully in every knot, in the fibre of every life and every family because I want to touch them in this hour, in such a way that when I cast them back into the sea in even a more powerful way, the net will not break when I pull them back in."

[philiprosenthal]

THE GREAT HARVEST

In Luke 5, we read about Jesus asking Simon Peter if He could board his boat, and later if Peter would take his boat into the deep water and cast out his nets for the catch. Peter's reply was that, although they had been fishing all night long in the lake and had caught nothing, they would do as Jesus said. They went to a place where there had been no harvest, cast out their nets, and there was an incredible harvest. I want to say to you, by the Spirit of God, that when the Lord finds people who will allow Him to board the boat of their lives, to become the Lord of their lives, and if they would submit to Him and go into the harvest even if it seems impossible, even if it seems to be an area where everyone else has given up, they will never lack a harvest. So we find, that in obedience to the Lord they cast out their nets and had an incredible harvest, but it brought a problem. The problem was two-fold. Firstly, the strain of harvest was so great that their net could not contain it and began to tear. Secondly, their boat was swamped and begun to sink.

Let me comment first on the net tearing. In the Kingdom of God, a net signifies one of two things. It could be the organisation of a ministry. We know that if there is an incredible harvest, and the organisation of that ministry is not right, it will tear under the strain. But as I waited on the Lord, the Lord said: "It is not the organisation of the ministry that I am looking at, it is the organism beneath that ministry. It is the lives, the relationships, the men and women who make up this ministry. Many of them have no concept of how I want to use them. By My mercy I'm coming to examine individual lives and relationships, so that they will not break under the strain of harvest." Jesus was saying to His disciples that if they followed Him they would bring in a greater harvest than they could ever imagine, but their lives and relation
ships were not ready for it. They had the greatest mandate and the greatest leader in history, as well as the anointing and power, but their lives and relationships were not ready. It took Jesus three and a half years, as well as His death and resurrection, to bring them into the full reality of where they needed to be for this harvest.

EXAMININ6 THE FIBRES
The fibre and the knots that tie this huge net together signify the relationships - be it your marriage, friendship, cell group, church or business relationships. As I was examining this net, I was amazed to see there were no huge rents in the net but as the Lord took me closer I began to see what you would not normally see with the naked eye: little frayed places, a few broken hairs and fibres here and there. You might ask: "What does it matter in such a big net if I have a small fray in my life?" I want to tell you, by the Spirit of God, every break in a net starts with a small frayed piece. No fray is insignificant.

[philiprosenthal]

There are two thing that can break the fibre of the net. Firstly, a spiritual problem and secondly, a sin problem. Lack of spiritual strength will affect you under the strain of harvest. It is pride that fools you into thinking that you're stronger than you are. Many of you think, "I'm in this great church; I'm under great teaching", and you fool yourself into thinking that you're stronger than you are. You should not judge your strength by how you feel on Sunday, but rather judge your strength by what you do when you are not at
church. When that great net came up out of the water, I saw many waving their hands, they were so excited to be a part of this ministry, and that's good. They were rejoicing, but almost lost sight of the fact that God was inspecting them individually. In this hour, I feel the Spirit of God coming to the fibre of this net and saying. "How strong are
you really? Do not mislead yourself into thinking that just because you hear good teachings every Sunday, you are walking in them, that just because you experience the reality of My presence, that you are close to Me. If you don't watch and if you don't pray, you'll break under the strain."

Sin is the other problem that causes the net to break. You might say that you will not betray the Lord or the ministry. Judas didn't start out wanting to betray Christ. He started out borrowing from the treasury. No one just falls into sin - there are little breakdowns along the way. God, by His mercy, speaks to us about the little things, and if we don't take the little things seriously, they will grow into big things. There do not have to be big things to deal with if we kill them the moment they arise. I see Jesus walking along the rope, saying, "I want to touch the frays because I want to use your life in a greater way than you've ever known and I want to use your family - not just in the short term, but in the long term."

HOW DO YOU T11 THI KNOT
I saw the Holy Spirit closely examining the knots of your relationships: the marriages, your friendships, your staff relationships. When ministries are torn, they are usually torn at the relational knots. I felt the Spirit of God saying to me: "In this hour, I'm examining the vital relationships of this church, and I am asking how you have tied the knots. If you are not relating in a biblical way, when the strain comes, and growth comes, and the enemy begins to whisper about your friend or your pastor, you'll respond wrongly, and tearing will take place."

You need to ask yourself if you have tied the knot in the sight and covenant of God and if you did it as something permanent so that when pressure comes to pull us apart, in reality, it will pull us together. God calls us to tie the relational knots of the spiritual family in our ministries, churches and families. From the very beginning, God chose to build through the family and if He can find a man and a woman who will stay together and raise their kids or their disciples His way, He can change all of human history.

[philiprosenthal]

Speaking of the Church in Ephesians 2, the Bible says that 'we have been joined together as a building' and in Ephesians 4:16 that 'we have been joined together as the body.' That means that you don't just join a church or a spiritual family, but that God, by His Spirit, joins you to a church. When He has joined you to something, you don't just walk away when you are offended or when you don't understand something. You may ask, "How do I know that the Lord has joined me to this spiritual family? I thought I just wandered in here, and if my pastor really offends me, I go on vacation until I recover." Well, if you were saved through this church, you're joined. If you're not born into this church through salvation, God adds you in one of two ways. Firstly, if you came here and felt the cloud of God's presence and were touched on the inside like never before, the reason for that special touch was to join you to these people in such a way that when the cloud stops (and it does when you get to the promised land) you'll follow the people that God has joined you to. Secondly, if you were between a rock and a hard place and had no hope, and all of a sudden a man of God hit the ocean with a stick and it parted -that has a way of joining you to him. Tragically, in our era of disposable relationships, the depth of people's relationship is dependent upon the depth of the crisis they are currently facing.

In summary, I believe that God is not examining the organisation of His People Ministries, but that He is examining the organism - that's you. In a large ministry, it is easy to feel insignificant -just like one little thread in the net. The strength of the ministry is the strength of its members. The strength of the net is dependent upon the slightest fibre. The greatest future in this ministry's history is coming, a greater harvest than you've ever known, but all the organisation in the world, all the great preaching in the world, will not bring in this catch. You are the net. God uses Pastor Paul and the other senior pastors of this international ministry to cast you out and many of you are going to be cast out into other places in the coming year.

[philiprosenthal]

I feel the Spirit of the Lord saying, "I want to do something in the net of His People Ministries, that they can have a great harvest, without a torn net, torn relationships and lots of casualties. And today, allow Me to pull you out of this great mass of people, where it is so easy to hide behind the feeling of insignificance. I'm looking at the fibre of your life. How is the strength of your spirit? Are there little frays of sin that are already the beginnings of a breakdown? Will you let the Lord touch them - the relationships that are tied with slip knots, in your marriage, in this church, with these people? I'm walking through the net, checking your fibres, tightening the knots, preparing you for the greatest harvest you have ever known."

GOING TO THE HARD PLACES

There is a calling on His People Ministries to go into areas of the world where there has been no harvest for centuries. Pastor Paul, the Spirit of the Lord would say unto thee, "My son, in this hour I am calling you and this ministry, even to areas of the world where many have said 'we have worked all night and caught nothing'; 'we have worked year after year after year and there has been no harvest', and as long as you allow Me aboard to lead this ministry, I will open up the hardest areas of the world to you. For I will burn like a flame in Germany. I will burn like a flame in Austria. I will burn like a flame in nations where I was once known. And I would say unto thee, My son, have I not given you a mandate to go to the hard places? Have I not given you a mandate to go to the fished over places? Have I not given you a mandate to go where others have given up. I am going to use this ministry to go to historic Christian nations, where there has been no harvest for years, and reopen the harvest for My Name's sake" says the Lord.

[robert_unknown]

interestingly to see, after this years, that it was EN who broke our relationships. it was EN (and HP) who didnt deal properly with sin. we have less churches in Europe than before. There is no fire burning in Austria and Germany. There is no HIS PEOPLE existing anylonger.

so my questions:
Q1: is God confused? Does he bring a prophesy about HisPeople knowing that His People will not exist anylonger after some years?

Q2: is God confused about Paul Daniel? Did he not know about him and his sin?

Q3: What benefit did HP get out of joining MSI/EN? why are the churches nowadays, smaller, weaker, less?

[philiprosenthal]

Robert. God is not confused. My view is that this prophecy was just made up by Jim Laffoon. It is not from God. It is the same as the period of pre-exile Israel, where people's minds were blinded and falsely comforted by false prophecies - to discourage them from repenting.

LA 2:14 The visions of your prophets were false and worthless; they did not expose your sin to ward off your captivity. The oracles they gave you were false and misleading.

His People and EveryNation need to repent of sin. This type of prophecy is just like jolly music to keep up a party atmosphere and keep the crowd in a good mood. It is just enterainment to keep up the hype of the crowd. It completely ignores the context of sinful backsliding which demands repentance to avert God's judgement.

I believe in the reality of prophecy. I have seen real prophecy come true many times. But this is not real prophecy. It is just hype. Jim Laffoon must be held accountable for it. Someone must ask him to explain himself or apologise for getting it wrong.

I think he is just deluding people and giving false credibility to the EveryNation American apostolic board and His People elite - who really need to repent and turn back to God.

[ulyankee]

Philip R.: * If anyone has time to transcribe the attached files and post the text on this thread, that would be much appreciated.

ulyankee: I'll try to make the time, if not this week then next week when my calendar frees up. I'd like to compare it to similar "prophecies" about the net b/c like Dust, I've heard JL talk on the net multiple times, and it was also presented as a reason my former church was going to embark on a certain church growth initiative in 2004 (that was second hand through pastors though - didn't hear JL speak on it that time).

I have another version on tape from one of the National School of the Prophets meetings. Similar to the Leah/Laban story (where God supposedly uses divine deception to get people to do His will, including getting them "drunk in the spirit" to join with leaders they normally wouldn't when "sober"), I think metaphors like this may be presented in different ways to different audiences... different perspectives on the same overarching agenda. I'd be interested if others know of even earlier versions than the HP one. The NSOP version was in 2000.

[philiprosenthal]

It is not necessary to transcribe it. it is up on the net above already. Please read it.

[ulyankee]

oops, my bad. Sorry.

[forword]

Yes, this is very similar to a message JL gave at Bethel in Nashville about how Bethel was building a net for Nashville. If memory serves it was given some months before 9/11 because afterwards, they said the message was in preparation to catch all the people coming to church post 9/11.

[robert_unknown]

... and did "all the people" come to BetheL? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[reflect]

WOW! I personally know Jim Lafoon, Rice Brooks,and all of the other one's associated with Every nation, and I have very high respect for all of them. Jim Lafoon prophesied upon my wife and I, and it has come to pass. Also, Rice Brooks changed my life to the better. Everytime that I want to give up, I think about that apostolic anointing that I was around. I feel like this is just an attack upon every nation. If every nation is not of God, then it will not succeed, but if it is of God, it will continue to stand. It's still standing. I pray for Rice Brooks, Jim Lafoon, and every nation, and I pray that it will continue on even with the opposition and accusation they have to face every day. I feel like there is a Tobiah and Sanballat spirit, just like when Nehemiah was building the walls. I see some Tobiah's and Sanballat's on this posting. Here is a word the Lord gave me concerning attacks on the 5 fold ministry. I find no fault in these men.

. Today, I felt like God gave me a prophetic insight on how the apostolic and prophetic move is coming under attack. I starting thinking back to Nehemiah, when Sanballat, Tobiah, the Arabs, the Ammonites and the men of Ashdod heard about the repairs of the wall of Jerusalem, they were very angry. I believe that the repairs of the wall is symbolic to the apostolic and prophetic voice of God's prophets and apostles speaking to the body of Christ to build the walls of our gifts and callings, with a guard on our heart and mind as we build. There is a Tobiah spirit today that is similar to when Nehemiah was building the walls of the temple. As the prophetic and apostolic anointing is setting things in order today, they are coming with full force, because the enemy does not want the body of Christ to be powerful as the church. I feel like the Lord says that part of our building is our praise and worship to him. We need to do the work of God with a spirit of building, and hold a weapon as well with the other. The Tobiah spirit hates our true praise and worship to the Lord of Lords. One part of our weapontry is Knowing the tactics of the enemy. As our devotion is consistent with the Holy Spirit, we will be very alert on the tactics of the enemy. The Tobiah’s today are saying, “What are they building?” If even a fox climbed up on it, he would break down their wall of stones! Nehemiah 4:3 The stones of the body of Christ will be brought back to life by the words of the apostles and prophets. Nehemiah 4:2 Can they bring the stones back to life from those heaps of rubble burned as they are. The stones may be burned stones, but stones of restoration power, and they will never be broken down. For the Lord is our wall of fire around us. Acts 5:39 says that if it is from God, which it is, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God. For the Lord says build! Worship! Praise! And build the walls of your calling and gifts as the body of Christ. Shake off the Tobiah spirit.

[wildwood_]

Hi Reflect! I haven't posted in quite some time but having just finished reading Josephus' account of the the destruction of Jersusalem where not one stone was left standing upon another.....but it was the High Priests and religious leaders who brought down this judgement upon themselves....for starving the sheep under their care and profaning the Temple of the Lord God Almighty by converting it into a money making investment (for some). Those prophets you menioned...repreatedly warned, begged. amd pleaded with these "men" to return to a pure religion of true worship to God...before the wrath of His Judgement would fall... Sadly, those brilliant well intentioned but possibly blinded by their own annointing oil folks...just couldn't seem to go back to simply: LOVING THE LORD GOD WITH ALL THEIR HEART AND SOUL and THEIR NEIGHBOR (the poorest sickest among them) as themselves...... WE ARE THE STONES. WE ARE THE TEMPLE of the Living Savior....He dwells in Our Hearts and as Christ once said....He does not fight against Himself. If we all one by one take a moment to remember who we each are in JESUS......well....The Lord's Church is TRIUMPHANT (as always). He's the Head.... Bless you for your concerns. Tobiah's probably working on a heavenly project with my Mom and Dad....not to worry....those "spirits" just don't trouble Christians who are STANDING for Jesus....in the Gap...for their Brothers and Sisters..... We're alert and We KNOW OUR GOD REIGNS. My most fervent prayer is that Jim Lafoon and Rice Brooks serve the same LORD!!! Because Jesus does Love them so very very much....

nite....and perhaps this computer will not be "killed" for allowing me to post...LOL

[ginger1]

Reflect , I was a blind carnal charismatic christian before like you. Until the Lord woke me up and start showing me scriptures. If you read 1corinthian, Paul address the issue of the Corinthian church of full of anointing. Paul mentioned that the Corinthian church has "ALL GIFT" of the Holy Spirit. To us in this day that means full of anointing. BUT Paul rebuked the Corinthian church of LACK OF CHARACTER. So these people anointing is USELESS if it lacks character.

I can even show you in scriptures about these people is not really anointed nor are they apostles. But at this point, I am looking at the general picture of the American churches. God has brought judgement to the american churches. Not just EN but overall. The year 2007 is pretty brutal . God is shaking His churches. It does not matter to Him if the person is anointed or not. People like Joyce Meyer, Eddie Long, Creflo Dollar, those are far more anointed people than EN leaders. God does not care, Anointing will not Protect them from His judgement. Character will.

His Judgement is far from over. I just recently heard the news that Oral Robert son just recently step down for the misuse of funds. That was good news for me, that means He (God) is not done shaking His church.

His judgement will definitely carry on for 2008. EN shakedown is not over yet. Steve Murrell will be next.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> Hi and Welcome Reflect,

I was like you once, also. I made what I thought were good defenses for this group. It was not until I was on staff and moving up in leadership did I get to see what was really going on. It was eye opening to say the least. Those details are on these pages.

Stay awhile read some, I hope that you do.}}

[j2theperson]

Wildwood! You're here and posting. I can't believe it!

You should call me sometime because we haven't talked in quite a while. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[robert_unknown]

If every nation is not of God, then it will not succeed, but if it is of God, it will continue to stand.

dear reflect, thank you for your thoughts and postings, and welcome here at this place.

your argument is in my opinion not a good one, because all the cults of the earth and all the false religions and their roots exist already as long as the truth.
if something breaks or does not break does not necessarily mean its right or wrong.

the bible is the standart for us Christians to follow, and i can tell you, i was a pastor in EN for several years, and many things that i have seen do not fit together with the book of books.

Jim Laffoons prophecies are fake. He used them at several places and he said "this is the Word of God for this place".

Look: HisPeople does not exist anylonger. NOTHING of his prophecies came to pass.

There is everything said!

Peace!

[robert_unknown]

Today, I felt like God gave me a prophetic insight on how the apostolic and prophetic move is coming under attack.

the so called "apostolic and prophetic" movement is not of God, its the invention of people like PeterWagner, who took the ideas of several misguided movements and preachers like the "New Order of the Latter Rain" movement or Branham, etcetc...
the roots and teachings of this movement can be tracked back to the 17.th century and to the teachings of a false prophetesse called "Jane Lead".
Some of the ideas are nearly word by word out of here teachings. make a research on the internet about her, and you will see.

EVERYTHING under the sun will be attacked from people who think differently. thats the cause of every idea and philosophy and it is not a proof if its from God or if its not from God.

Jim Laffon is a false prophet and Rice Brooks is a selve apointed false apostle.

they are misled. and unfortunately they mislead many other people because they have a message that tickles in the ears.

Jesus looks for character and not for a tickling message.

[j2theperson]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

Reflect: If every nation is not of God, then it will not succeed, but if it is of God, it will continue to stand.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>
People make statements like this, and they think it's biblical because somebody in the bible said something similar, but it's simply not true.

The original quote can be found in Acts 5:38-39 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=act%205:38-39&amp;version=49), but it's not necessarily a true statement. It comes from the advice Gamaliel gave to the Jewish religious leaders who were trying to figure out how to deal with the early christians.

It was not necessarily true advice or wise advice or godly advice. It was simply advice given by a non-christian man to other non-christian men.

I really wish people would stop repeating it as if it was advice sanctioned by God, because it isn't.

[matt_hatter]

This is a good point J2. To further prove your point, there are a number of highly successful 'cults' that have been around for 100's of years. Judging by the quote above, they must 'be of God'.

I have heard this used so many times. Success by somebody's yard stick doesn't mean it is of God. Heck, the Mafia is successful.

[jayhernandez]

Not only the Mafia but all the major religions are too.

[xman3]

It's that first barrage of posts that new ones like this inspire that is hard to take. Not many stick around like xman.

When I read reflects post, I immediately thought of the other face of EN that is so appealing and in many cases, helpful to those zealous for the kingdom of God. 40, where are you now, with your skeptisism and all.

I doubt God would send a stranger onto the internet to prophecy to a bunch of factnet skeptics so I take the whole thing with a grain of salt, but I did note the loose parallel to EN. That prophet/apostle stuff aside, there's always that thing lurking in the background that is just skeptical enough or perhaps arrogant enough to almost want my EN brethren to fail as if to be able to say "told you so" would be worth it.

When I reflect on the whole picture, my year long factnet experience included, and I put the whole thing together as best I can, I am still led to do my best to show the same patience with EN that I need God to show with me. Thankfully for me, I believe it hasn't stopped after over 20 years of my stuff.

This ain't the spot to extoll the virtues of any progress they have made, but I will say that reflect does exemplify what many here once thought was the height of Christianity, and though in part it disturbs me because of the unknowingly manipulative use of prophecy etc..., it also sparks a perhaps nostalgic longing for that innocence and trust. It's like a prophetic krems, and I find their loyalty an admirable thing, though now that I'm on the outside, I see it as often misguided.

[robert_unknown]

the "prophecy" from reflect is no preophecy at all. its just a scripture, taken out of context, interpreted through the glasses of the "submission and authority" heresy and thrown against brothers and sisters who have been victioms of abuse.

its a good example how the "apostolic and prophetic" movement operates, be it to "convert" people and churches into their ideas and movement and be it to controle members "to shutup and obey"...

its evil.

i love people, and certainly my former En brothers/ sisters, but i hate this selfapointed "though said the Lord" manipulations...

mate, they dont work here anylonger.

reflect, if you like a serious and honest discussion, please feel welcome. but you have to know that these kind of tricks dont work on the people here anylonger. so please be kind and leave them outside.

but honest and serious discussions are welcome anytime.

[xman3]

Certainly can't argue with any of that. A little blunt for me, but certainly gets the point across.

My commentary is more on the persons loyalty to her leadership and innocence in extolling their virtues, rather than the substance of the post.

Like I said, misguided.

Somewhere along the line, I'd like to have an "innocent' trust with a church family again, but it's little jaded right now.

[john_r_jones]

I can well recall the need to center my life around my calling and ministry involvement instead of being centered on Jesus. Jesus was a means to an end a sort of conduit to my self realization of greatness. As is the case with Him He lets us run with this notion it allows us to do as Peter did, Paul, really anyone who seeks to follow Jesus-we come to our end. I hear the voice of Peter in the voice of reflect rebuking Jesus. I hear that voice because there have been times when I've done the same thing, superimposed my agenda on God's kingdom. I sort of forgot He said, "My Kingdom is not of this world." Satan even tried to sell Jesus a kingdom at bargain basement prices-all of us for a quick fix. I'm sure Peter had "Prophetic" insight when he said, "Lord may it never be!" Jesus however saw beyond a quest for a calling or ministry or baptized human ambition He saw Peter whom He loved too much to allow him to live in this deception. So He allowed Peter to find himself in the courtyard of the temple where the trial was being held. When Peter finished his third and final denial Jesus glanced over at him as Peter fled in horror of what he was capable of.

A far leaner Peter writes in the later part of the New Testament, a Peter less burdened by an obsession with anything. He sees His master, Jesus. Even there Jesus isn't an obsession, or a self remedy for what ails ya, or any such religious stuff; Jesus is at His merest a reality for Peter.

I remember going over those passages about Nehemiah and the restoration of the City walls. I would imagine God restoring my failures with glorious testimonials of His power and might. It wasn't until years later that I came to learn of the context of those days. Israel feared for their very existence, they remembered well the exile in Egypt so they began to codify their experiences into a testament so their God wouldn't be forgotten among the paganism and idolatry so prevalent in Babylon.

Some might say serendipity played a role in their fate as they were allowed to return to the ash-heap of a city and began to sift through the rubble. This was not done by proud warriors but by a few who dared to hope upon hope that something could be made of this mess. They scouted about under cover of night, they built looking out of the corner of their eye, they hoped secretly that they'd pull this off. They did but a terrible toll was taken on their culture. The feasts and celebrations of before were now meager observances because they feared, they feared themselves. So from that time until the time of Jesus they increased the rules, tightened the tolerances and exacted the price for faithfulness from all. Instead of thriving they languished.

Jonesee

[matt_hatter]

I find it interesting that the trend continues to call everything a "spirit", and not only that, but find some obscure Bible character and attach a name to it. This is the reason that I just don't swallow this stuff anymore. Of course, the number one golden oldie of our time was the Jezebel spirit. As Robert said, those tricks just don't work anymore.

Xman, you are correct that first barrage is hard to survive. I think mainly it is due to the fact that an EN believer is in such a bubble and has such difficulty with others not only questioning their 'prophecies' but their whole motive behind it.

It surely must get one to thinking that just maybe this stuff is manipulative "jedi mind tricks". Reflect, it is not our intention to pile on. But we have a saying in the deep south: "I call bullsh*t on that." I know by being that blunt, it is a hard thing to think that there are actually people "touching God's anointed." (another Jedi mind trick)

You have to understand: many of us love and revere the Lord. But we don't equate Him with all of this "the Lord is telling me to tell you people" stuff. We see it for what it is: manipulative and dangerous. It is my prayer that you will open your eyes one day and see the same thing.

As Robert said, serious and honest conversation, no problem, we even disagree with one another, which shows a healthy person in my mind. But the Sansabelt Spirit references won't go too far here. I quit wearing them in 1979. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[lablady2]

Reflect said: "If every nation is not of God, then it will not succeed, but if it is of God, it will continue to stand. It's still standing."


Just because something continues doesn't mean that it's of God....just open your eyes, look around the world and give it some thought.

Sad.

[robert_unknown]

this seems to be the only argument that you hear over and over again from EN people: "if it is not from God it will cease to exist,ectetc..."

are the guys in EN so unsecure about their movement? can they not reason about it seriously? is this their only argument?

i mean, if i know what i am doing, and if i know that it is right, than i dont base my security on such a weak argument.

how weak!

[the_west_here_i_come]

Reflect, I think what you need to do is go back and test the spirits because the spirit of God is not inside your ministry. In deed, the spirit of the Anti-christ is there. I can prove it to you as well. For example, EN believes that God is going to give them the nations. I know this because an old leader before I finally left En said God was going to give them the world and then God was going to come back to judge them on how well they managed his planet. Now the problem with that teaching is that the last government based on the Bible teaches is the antichrist government before christ comes back. And then when christ returns he will overthrew and destroy his final foe both the antichrist and eventually death. Now, I want to hear from you reflect how are you going to tell me this is Godly teaching. So En is the antichrist? Indeed the problem with this type of thinking is that its humanistic. EN's vision is based on ungodly principles. Have you ever noticed that? Its based in a respector of persons. They go after the rich and famous. People who thought that their strength came from "flesh" or carnal in the bible are people like Jezebel. Jezebel was the most wickedest person in the Scriptures other than Ahab her husband. INdeed, this demoic spirit of control is there as well. But , how is that biblical when Deuteronomy tells us God is not a respector of people-look he even chastised his own people.
Moreover, please study the nicholaitans-they were a false sect that taught in order to get through to God you have to go through this pecking order b/c the hierarchy is so much closer to God. Your leaders don't even belong to God. Look at the fruit. Million dollar homes, lying, stealing, manipulation of the Word and more importantly a outright direct abuse of the scripture. Look at the issue of "touching God's anointed" an En favorite. To be anointed means to be appointed for a specific task. God initially rejected Saul because of his rebellion thus he lost his anointing or task. Pauls forewarns us that many false prophets will come in the name of christ so they can be manifested. Remember Jesus spoke of the harvest-its at the end where the tares are plucked up. He doesn't destroy them when they are in their beginning stages but he allows for a full maturation of their error until the end. In due season God is oging to pluck EN up if she doesn't repent. Lastly, going back to the nicholaitans, nichol in greek means to conquer and laity means congregation. EN doesn't plant churches but instead conquers them. It's dominionism and its demonic. EN's eyes are focused on creation more than the creator thus it makes them pagans because they worship creation more. Paul said in romans these people have been given over to a reprobate mind and in timothy forewarns us to STAY AWAY from these types of people. Any sorcerer can give you an accurate word but the spirit in which Laffoon operates under is familiar spirits not the Holy spirit. If He was he would not compromise on the Word and be in convenant relationship with the antichrists like brooks and bonaasso. More importantly, the question you should be asking is why Laffoon if he is godly in convenant with a group of people who have indeed chosen death? Moreover, I had a dream about Brooks and his faced turned into a wolf as he walked around. it was indeed a dream to describe your leader whom you profess to be Godly. They are indeed godless.

[ageeh]

<font color="808080"><font face="times new roman,times,roman"><font size="-1">Hi everybody, have u ever considered introspection among urself some of u believe in homosexuality,tithe,sex-b4-marriage and many other things foreign to faith in Christ &amp; His righteousness. but u still find refuge in criticizing EN/HP yet are urselves heading to satan's behaviours/beliefs.

Is it not better to self-service in doctrine and love.It really doesn't benefit to crusade around En/HP fall while forgetting u too need self reflection and edifying each other.

Hola-South African</font></font></font>

(Message edited by Ageeh on December 17, 2007)

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> HI Ageeh,

This is not a church, per sae as you see it. Just individuals posting about what happened to them over time.

So if you have concerns address them to those you feel need your ministry, and pray for them.}

[ageeh]

cop; u can't tell me this is what happened when entertaining heresy and rumours.u r more concerned about dirty linen than healing individuals. If u share stories &amp; heal one another why do you castigate righteousness as in the case of philipR on the matter of homosexuality &amp; abortion ect.

U guys r just bitter hence finding refuge in rumours, bad-speaking other christians. And how come this healing is never realised.There's no change of tone among all of u.

I safely suggest u have turned into being a cult urself.I know u will refute this just like En/Hp would reject ur ascertions that they are a cult.

[ginger1]

Ageeh,

here is the problem with that belief. Let me start this, I am against abortion , I am never for it because it is murder. Second, I am not for homosexuality because it is in the bible but I am against people who are bigots which is a lot worst and a hypocrite.

Second here lies the problem. In america, we vote for politicians where they stand on pro abortion or not. Instead of based on their qualification to lead. What good does it do , if we vote for a congressman or senators when they cannot do anything about changing it. Its the Supreme Court who ruled abortion that is legal. Which these politicians can do nothing about it.

Its the same thing as going to a surgeon, do I care if they are homosexual or not if I want the best care for my children ? what does that got to do with their gender preference ?

Now here is a question for you, If these homosexuals CHOSE AND Decide to be HETEROSEXUAL Will that make them closer to heaven ? Or Closer to be saved or NOT ?

I thought we get saved because of Jesus not because we are heterosexual.

[ginger1]

Here is another problem with EN leaders, practice and teaches, they will always raised the bar of standard of righteous living to be RIGHT BEFORE GOD. Talking about abortions, homosexuality, tithing, reading of the Word 20 minutes a day or praying for an hour a day, more or less. Those sound good and this is what driving this EN church and yet it is very demonic.
Jesus has addressed this very issue with the Pharisees. He call them hypocrites.
Jesus said these Pharasees, pray more than anyone else, tithe more than anyone else , read their bible more than anyone else and yet they are going to hell. BECAUSE THEY BASED THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS and Salvation On these WORKS.

We based our rightousness and salvation on what JESUS has done on the cross. NOT on these works like EN does.

THATs what makes EN a CULT. Thats what makes EN demonic. Thats what makes EN a HYPOCRITICAL MINISTRY. They drive people to do all these False righteousness and yet fail to uphold it themselves . Jesus said on Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

JESUS SAID THERE ARE WEIGHTIER MATTER than doing all these Righteous works. And these things matter more to the Father's heart. It is Justice, Mercy and Faithfulness.

If you have problem people talking and exposing these "dirty linens" then you will have problem with Paul the apostle, because he exposed the dirty linens of Peter and he wrote it for us to read it in Galatians. And not only that , throughout the new testament, Paul have no problems naming names who he has problems with.

Ageeh, I think the main problem is that you may have left EN/HP but EN/HP has never left you.

[ginger1]

Key scriptures

Romans 1: 18
18For (AJ)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (AK)suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

UNRIGHTEOUS MEN SUPPRESS the TRUTH in Righteousness. This is not just talk of Homosexuality or Abortion. This is about people who knew that Stealing is Wrong or doing Unlawful things is Wrong. AND Want people to SUPPRESS the truth. Who does not want to Speak out. This is why Phil Bonasso, Rice Brookes , Steve Murrell and all these EN leaders are not in right standing with God because they knew what they are doing is wrong . And people who speak out are PERSECUTED. Make them feel guilty when they criticized EN/VCF. Make them feel scared or fearful. Don't talk about your experiences of what happened in EN/VCF or whats happening now. They even accused you of gossiper.
So you wont spread "rumors" of what TRULY happened.

That is called SUPPRESSING THE TRUTH.

I do applaud for the change in HP. But do not make a blanket statement that EN/VCF is changing. Because they are NOT.

(Message edited by Ginger1 on December 18, 2007)

[robert_unknown]

ageeh,
we aer just a bunch of people who met here on this board and who share their experiences with a cultic group and our concern for the people who are drawn into this over the last years. everyone of us has to stand before God one day for his own life. thats for true.
but this does not mean that we just shut up and have no right to express our concerns. EN is a organisation that is based on unrightessness, abuse and false teachings that support this both.

every person with a sound mind has the right to evaluate was has happened to him or what probably will happen to him when he becomes part of such a group.

well - IN MCM, MSI, EN NO ONE will tell you about the real nature of the group. firstly, because they believe that what they do is right.

so as a christain i have the holy duty to examine the techings and the social behaviour of a group like this, if it harms others.

why?

because i can warn other people so that they will not get harmed.

you sound like a guy who owns a clothes label and gets angry, when people find out that you produce your clothes through childlabour and exploiutation of underpaied and overworked women.

Christians have the RIGHT to judgte what is wrong, and tehy have the DUTY to stand up for rightessness.

and btw: in EN you have found and will find also pro-aborters (just ask Phil about it), homosexuals (i know personally some), people who love sex be-4-marriage (i knew one who was in a worship team), people who smoke cigarettes, have problems with pornogrphy, etcetc...

so what shall i do with your argument about this? nothing at all. sin is not necessarily the problem, because we live in a fallen world, and Jesus Christ delt with sin.
But the real problem is hypocracy (like in EN, when they did not deal properly with tehir abusive and gready leaders) or a system that supports abuse, exploitation and all kinds of unrightessness in the name of God!

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font> HI ageeh,

I did not say any thing in the nature of which you accuse me. That was my point you lumping all who post here.

My posts are not rumour as you say, I was there , or I did that also.

If you think differently then , we will agree to disagree.}

[the_west_here_i_come]

ageeh, I have been reading these posts for a number of years now. Now granted there are times where I pray for those that post on this board. I have even often wondered is the Lord going to be able to help them move on and see that these wicked and perverse leaders that had once abused them will be held accountable. I always try to use wisdom in choosing my battles and I want to state this politely that if you were indeed operating in the spirit of God I think you would recognize the spirit in which why these posters are here. They are here to vent. If you are a woman or man of God and you have the spirit in you as Ezekiel stated, I will put my spirit in them and they will live, you would perceive where many on this board are coming from. Now granted, there is indeed a season and commandment to let go of the past and forgive but healing takes time. As a brother and sister in Christ you should be praying for those that post here not condemning them. God bless and I will pray for you too-

[ageeh]

th west here...I find ur argument reasonable rather than copertree &amp; robertunknown..here is the argument:I was a campus youth chairperson at university for HHP/MSI where I witnessed hipocracy and lies of church leaders, witnessed amputation of young leaders b4 me @ varsity ministry their lives falling away due to prophecies of HP pastors but having had my time wasted and in ur language here 'abused' I moved out, discovered factnet in 2005, confronted church leaders in HP. they explained their story about MSI and maranatha.

I received valuable guides from here and related to guys like ....&amp; PhilipR. But after healing and contributing here I had to move on just like Apstl Paul moved on to teach christian on other matters and moved away from ministering endlesly like some of u here on exposing and rebuking Peter,and other jewish christians who preached 'CIRCUMCISSION'. HIS MINISTRY WAS NOT REDUCED TO CASTIGATING PETER ON CIRCUMCISSION OR
FORCING GENTILES TO DO MOSES' law

Copertee...U ARE NOT DIFFERENT FROM PEOPLE WHO CONTRACT HIV, AND AFTER TESTING HIV+ RESIGN FROM THEIR DUTIES AND CAREERS TO BECOME AIDS ACTIVISTS MAKING NOISE TO EVERYONE AS IF AIDS/HIV WERE JESUS CHRIST'S GOSPEL.

HOPE U FIND BETTER THINGS TO COMMIT URSELVES TO IN JESUS NAME.

ACTUALLY I HAVE A SUGGESTION, FOR TOMORROW PRAY FOR SOUTH AFRICA BECAUSE THE ANC IS NOW LED BY JACOB ZUMA..a man who loves everything.

[robert_unknown]

good sugestion. i have read it in newspaper today, and i will pray http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[40days40years]

ageeh you said: I moved out, discovered factnet in 2005, confronted church leaders in HP. they explained their story about MSI and maranatha.

40: AND ? what is your point and if their answers were satisfactory, does it apply to the USA? Come let us reason together. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

It is almost 2008, why have you not posted more? When Philip R. needed backing, where were you? (even though I thought Philip and his rant on the stay on topic thing became a bit much but never the less he is a Godly man)

Yeah, if you feel the way you do, why monitor this board so closely? You did not wipe the dust off your feet, YOU LURKED and read and read. Is that not hypocritical, just a bit?

Say Hi to Bill B. for me http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif I am being ragged on for not being tough enuf on abortion an homosexuality. JRJ, this guy is insinuating I am a liberal http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif I better toughen up and become more righteozzzzzz.

[ageeh]

I have contributed enough and spoke to SpeakWord &amp; PhilipR onffline.

I didn't say I was satisfied with their explanation.All I'm saying is that I will not REDUCE MY GOD GIVEN PURPOSE TO ANTI-CULT/EN/HP CAMPAIGNS. I have a purpose that I'm pressing forward to, forgeting things behind, and not entangling myself with civilian matter 'circle of rumouring here'.

I fight a kingdom battle as a soldier not attached to civilian issues of 'victim viscous circle'

Ageeh

[ginger1]

I will not REDUCE MY GOD GIVEN PURPOSE TO ANTI-CULT/EN/HP CAMPAIGNS.

The problem I have with EN/VCF is that they put you in a box, they tell you what is your purpose is and condemn you if you don't follow that route. They create their own vision and shove them down your throat. Then they also looked down on other people. Its a religious pride.

See, in the Lord, everybody has their purpose in God. How would you know that their purpose is not to post here and "move on". God may give you a purpose in life to open your eyes and move on but others God gave them a purpose to continue to post and exposed EN/VCF.

I know my purpose, God told me to exposed them, the Lord Spoke to me in numerous dreams and It was prophesied to me and my husband by a travelling prophet almost 20 years ago. And I thought it was over,I want to move on, recently the Lord spoke to me in a few dreams that it is not over yet. There is still something about to happen. And I am going to be involved in it AGAIN.

If God told you to move on, then you move on, you don't tell people to move on. Because you are not God. Let these people hear from God themselves.

The religious mentality in EN/VCF has always been narrow minded, " this is ministry, that is Ministry and that is not a ministry at all" . Looked into your bible, the first spiritual gift the Lord bestowed in the bible is not tongues, healing , nor prophesy. Its craftmanship. Exodus 31:31. So if somebody in the church is good with craftmanship , you would tell them its not a spiritual thing or a spiritual gift simply because of ignorance of God's Word.

So how would you know that God did not call them to move on ? And what these people are doing are not of God ? I strongly believe a lot of people here are doing God's purpose in their own ways. And none of them are perfect the way they post and thats the way how God create them to be.

You need to learn what Grace mean and learn to apply it on other people. Thats what most of us learned when we left EN/VCF. And the Lord move His Ways mysteriously.

As I said, you may have left EN but EN has not left you. The mentality is still the same.

[ageeh]

ginger I realize that the factnet cult has blinded you such that colour green is blue to you.But see everything in the factnet cult eye.

I feel sorry for you that you have reduced urself to such demeaning level just as the bible speak of christians who draw away from the Word and cling to heresy,gossip and FACTNET CULTIC DEBATE THAT GROWS LIKE CANCER.

I am not HP minded, it is this nature that made me resign from it cause the faith I received from the Lord didn't resonate with deceit and mind-control games of Purple books, Covenant membership couses and unstable-confused bible school doctrined devised by individual whose intend is to build their respective Kingdoms in EVERYNATION.

I AM FREE, THE WORD OF GOD SET ME FREE INDEED.JESUS &amp; THE FATHER ABIDE IN ME, THEY REFUSE TO SEE ME TURN INTO internet-FACTNET gossip ministries OF GINGER-Robrt Unknown and 40days.

This is my last post so I don't fall for this civilian entanglement..millions are diying without knowledge of the Gospel...it is a shame to reduce uself to gossip ministries of anti-En/Hp.I'm sure God will ask you what u have with ur time.I pray you don't say "RiceB-PhilB-PaulD hurt me so I took them on factnet".that will be a disappointment.

mary Christmas}

[robert_unknown]

ageeh, you dont seem to understand WHAT a cult is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

the question is, why is this hate inside of you against us people here? what have we done you, that you react so strongly on us?
i have nothing against you, and to be serious, i dont care what you think about me or not.

i was a pastor in HP/EN for several years, and i have suffered much loss and much damage, emotionaly, financially and socialy because of my engagement with this particular group. if it was only for me, i would not do what i do- i was already at the point of letting this thing go. but i realized that people all over the world suffered the same things through this group than i did. also many peoplethat i know very well. and therefore i decided to break the silence!t

I have wittnesed first hand the
-practices of mystical manipulation through the use of false doctrine and sorcery (false propheties given by false prophets)
- abuse and exploitation of members (sometimes with the result of broken marriages, devastated lives, depressions...)
- misuse of finances
- lack of transparency and honesty
- lies
- abuse of authority and trust
- etcetc...

as i said: i do not care what you think about me, or that you hate me and the people here. you can do what you want (but be big enough to grant us also the right to do what we think is the right thing to do).

i can honestly say, that i hold nothing against you.

but as long as EN does not change and as long as EN operates with the same methods, heresies and manipulation as before, i will NOT shut up!

its nothing personal. and i agree with you, perhaps its not the most healthy thing to adress these things over and over again. but - hey - i have already lost everything, there was nothing left anymore... so why not stand up for the sake of truths and rightessness?

there have already been people who where thankfull for the informations that got provided here. it helped them to NOT become part or member of this gropu, and i tell you, they are more happy now, than within this group.

[robert_unknown]

This is my last post so I don't fall for this civilian entanglement..millions are diying without knowledge of the Gospel...it is a shame to reduce uself to gossip ministries of anti-En/Hp.)

thats a VERY good point, and personally i share your concern.

but the problem with forums like this is, taht one sees only ONE facet of another person, and not all. why do you assume, that we dont preach the gospel to others? or try to bring others to Christ?

The most people, that i have met here, do exactly this: they invest their fonances into mission (into REAL mission, not into fake-mission like in EN, where the bucks go into the pockets of the rich), the most people here are engaged into social and christian works, to bring the gospel and the love of Christ to others...

dont assume that this here is all we do.

[ageeh]

sorry Robert 4 my sweeping statements...I love u too hence my attitude here.I have been perplexed by the continuous diging of dirty linen of En pastors etc. The direction of debate here is gossip than scriptural comforting and building while exposing evil of whoever.But not gossip

Also my assumption is safe about devoting time on factnet cult debate.Most of you have network with HP/EN members sharing inside communiques and letters.

[mcmstaff78]

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>quote:</font>

This is my last post...<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>The one thing you can absolutely depend upon when this statement is made is that another post is forthcoming!! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[ginger1]

Ageeh, if you truly want to do God's work. Here is scripture for you, The bible said that Do not be yoke with unbelievers,for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?

so why is HP is still entangled with EN ? What partnership is righteousness AND LAWLESSNESS.

We are not supposed to entangle ourselves with lawlessness. Rice Brookes , Phil Bonasso , Steve Murrell etc. have committed unlawful crimes.

So why is HP entangled with them instead of breaking away from them. Why don't you do God's work and tell that to your HP leaders and will see how far you will go with it. You will find out yourself how SELECTIVE you become in obeying God's scripture.

[ginger1]

Funny thing is, these EN/VCF people would used the same scripture to people who are going out with unbelievers and yet refused to apply this to themselves.

[ageeh]

ginger:..I'm not in HP anymore since 2003.I can't comment thus.

look you too mix with homosexuals here on facnet

[xman3]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

And you say there are no prophets today.(mcm)

[robert_unknown]

thanks ageeh for the clarifying words.

ageeh, i have learned perhaps not much, but at least have i learned to understand that people are differently. some people have it easier to walk on after an emotional and spiritual onslaught, like it has happened to many of us.
you certainly are a person, who has it easier to just go on. and i respect this. a good friend of mine, fully aware of everything that happenes within EN, s still part of EN, because "of the people" (thats his words)- he thinks he can serve the people better that still are in the church this way. i respect this also.

for me, personally, its very difficult to just "go on" and pretend that nothing has happened. i payed a very high price for pastoring a church under HP/EN. i must admit, that i too, was blind and manipulated people with the discipleship and purple book thingy.

perhaps therefore i am engaged here to the extend that i am.

but - as i said, brother, people are just differently. and they also react differently on situations. thats not necessarily bad or evil. its just different.

[matt_hatter]

Agee, you jump to an illogical conclusion. Here's is your thinking:
1. I have moved on.
2. Because I have, the others still posting on factnet haven't.
3. I must therefore go to factnet and tell them of my revelation and reprove them.

In doing this, you have simply found for yourself a new 'cause'. What is a personal revelation for you applies to no one but yourself. You have no idea why people post in here. If you have truly moved on, the best thing would do what you said, make your 'last post', saddle up, and ride into the African sunset.

Oh, and as you are riding? Think about the kinds of folks that Jesus 'mixed' with.

[ginger1]

Ageeh, I have no problem with the Homosexuals. I respect their decisions. I already made my peace with them years ago. What good will it do to lambast them ? Will that further the gospel of Christ ? or will that prevent them from coming to the Kingdom of God ?

Does changing their decision to be heterosexual make them closer to God ? Or get them "more saved" ?
The reason why we are starting to have one new law after another in regards to gays and lesbians is because people are starting to be aware of gay bashing. They are being persecuted for being who they are. And we as christians are reacting only to the results of these laws being created.

The gospel of Christ was supposed to be Good News. Not hate.
The bible said, It is the goodness of God that lead us to repentance.

Its not the preaching of hate or preaching of people going to hell because they are homosexuals or because they are living without the benefit of marriage that make people repent of their sins.

It is His Goodness that make people repent. I got born again because He is good. All of us got born again because He is good.
If somebody preach to me how ugly I am , how bad I am, I will be turned off and will not want to hear it.

I turned my ways because He is good. And thats the real gospel of Christ.

[ginger1]

Now here is a question. Do you hate Homosexuals that much ? are you willing to destroy the Lord's name by preaching hate against homosexuality and let the whole world see that ?
Are you willing to be the stumbling block for the devil himself so these people cannot enter the kingdom of God ?





(Message edited by Ginger1 on December 20, 2007)

[ginger1]

I must therefore go to factnet and tell them of my revelation and reprove them

I like my favorite preacher said about this. Its under the warning signs of a religious spirit.

no. 7 Will believe that they have been appointed to fix everyone else. These persons become the self appointed watchmen, or sheriff , in God's kingdom. They are seldom involved in building but serve only to keep the church in a state of annoyance and agitation , if not causing serious division. -- Overcoming the Religious Spirit by Rick Joyner.

*from me. I am not here to fix EN/VCF. I do not believe that it can be fix. I am here to exposed them of the crimes they committed and continue to commit. The moment they start stealing, they stop being a ministry and being a pastors or ministers.

no. 6 Will keep score on their spiritual life, this includes feeling better about ourselves because we go to more meetings, read our bibles more , do more things for the Lord etc. ( this includes sharing the gospel) . These are all noble endeavors but the true measure of spiritual maturity is getting closer to the Lord.



(Message edited by Ginger1 on December 20, 2007)

[ageeh]

ginger...ur falleness has induced drunkardness in EN bashing.U r guilty of same crimr u r accusing me.Read Romans 1:7-15 u will know my stand. En pastor are not all devil agents but there're so many that are God's children and serve the kingdom of God.Do u think u own God's kingdom that u can be a judge over wherether En pastor are God's children or not.

U r so bitter I don't think u deserve my attention.

[matt_hatter]

The one thing you can absolutely depend upon when this statement is made is that another post is forthcoming!!---78

And you say there are no prophets today.(mcm)--xman

WOW XMAN!!! That MCM78 is a prophet. He better rethink this whole crackamania stuff.

[ageeh]

that's exactly what I meant that u r in a cult, u post stupid jokes making fool of others and more especially when u are urself exposed.yet u think ur exposing En is justified through gossip and stupid comedy u r posting here.

U guys need to move on you have been posting same dirty linen.You play the men instead of the game.It is doctrine or culture in En that abuses people, that's what u should be taking on so that u can help heal those like RobertUnknown, but you are childish and crazy just like Apartheid idiotic Verwoord, Pik Botha etc.

Play the ball and leave the man, more especially leave the stupid &amp; childish people fool-making.

[matt_hatter]

Whatever dude. S African politicians don't interest me. Follow your own advice. Move on. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lame.gif

[xman3]

Thanks for your kind words brother. I'll follow your example. Uh, maybe not.

Personally, I find it humorous that when someone says it's their last post, it just like he said. Look forward to another. Nothing personal ageeh. I'm not trying to make you look like a fool.

It happens all the time here that's all. Sorry though. Probably was in bad taste. That's partly why I don't post too much in EN anymore though as like you, I don't feel called to pursue exposing them or anything, but I ain't telling ginger she's wrong either.

To each his own here at the public forum of factnet. We all have our reasons for being here, including you.

[mcmstaff78]

I always think that people who "bash" others ought to a least have the decency to use proper grammar, spelling and punctuations in their posts! I mean, c'mon!! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

As for "prophets", well, I'll stand back from that one as I don't want to attract anymore lightening bolts than is already my wont.

[40days40years]

ageeh you said: I didn't say I was satisfied with their explanation.

40: what part of their explanation were you not satisfied with and who did you talk to?

Why does making stupid jokes make us a cult here? You do remind me of a poster named Anti-Fascist who also employed a strange use of anti-logic to his arguments at times. I can not completely put my finger on it but both of you remind me of this character (http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fs earch%2Fimages%3Fp%3Dcoco%2Bpuffs%2Bbird%26rs%3D1% 26y%3DSearch%26ei%3DUTF-8%26js%3D1%26ni%3D20%26vf%3D&amp;w=425&amp;h=195&amp;imgurl=jo shuabryant.com%2Fblogfiles%2Fphotos%2Fcocoapuffs.j pg&amp;rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjoshuabryant.com%2Fblogfiles% 2Fphotos%2Fcocoapuffs.jpg&amp;size=39.1kB&amp;name=cocoapu ffs.jpg&amp;p=coco+puffs+bird&amp;type=jpeg&amp;no=6&amp;tt=9&amp;oid= 5a5a498a6d6f3edc&amp;ei=UTF-8).

You should get together with AF over the holiday and share the sugary goodness of going cuckoo for coco puffs.



P.S. - It is hard for Americans in general to show much interest in things like SA politics, perhaps were on a higher spiritual plain? or maybe we just get bored easily. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

[matt_hatter]

It must be a cultural thing 40. I, too, can't follow the logic of his posts, and had a very difficult time with A-F also. Perhaps Speakword can give us some insight. I realize that English may be a second language here for agee, but posting in teenage text-messaging doesn't win me over either.

[ginger1]

I don't follow the logic either. I certainly am not interested with African politics. He is upset with Apartheid , and if I am correct Apartheid means unequal treatment of black and white correct ? Which is Bigotry. And yet he want us to treat the homosexuals same way ? And be a bigot against them.

Kind of hypocritical don't you think ?

[ginger1]

Oh by the way Agee, I do not mind mixing up myself with the Homosexuals , thank you for noticing that. Because Jesus does not mind mixing up Himself with the prostitues( which are people have sex before marriage), the thieves , the tax collectors or you know plain sinners like me and He has a good time about it.

I think I have fallen so low and away from that religious EN spirit , I can just kiss myself LOL !

(Message edited by Ginger1 on December 21, 2007)

[40days40years]

Yeah Hatter I thought it might be a cultural thing also but was leery of being accused of being immersed in a colonial, big brother mindset or some crazy thing like that.

I did think about what ageeh said though. Why not move on? After thinking about it though I think posters here serve a purpose. That purpose is to let common members (who have problems with the ministry) know that they are not alone. It is good to let these people know that their right and that elitism is wrong, catering to the rich and famous and favoring them is wrong, using the ministry as a means of excessive personal gain is wrong.

The congregations are kept in the dark much of the time and this is wrong. Questioning leadership is the same as questioning God much of the time and leadership uses this to their advantage. It is good to let people know that many of these men have been promising changes and reforms for a long time and have failed to deliver. If everybody did what ageeh proposed then many of those struggling with issues might feel alone or like their failing God or something.

Plus we do owe it to the leaders of this thing to tell them that there are problems and they should be fixed and not just brushed under the rug. Were also doing the leaders a favor here too ageeh.

Ginger did make a good point in the past that being nice and humbly going to leadership and talking about problems does not work with this crowd. The obnoxious approach seems to be the only method that has had some limited success here. ageeh says that some of the things said here are rumors and gossip, perhaps that is true but that is the consequence of having an organization that is not transparent and keeps people in the dark.

Ageeh forgets that in the past, people in EN and even leaders out of the loop come to factnet to find out the truth and answers. It may take a while but eventually the true story comes out here. I guess ageeh would prefer that members who want to stay in EN, should be kept in the dark and uninformed in the same way a six year old child is kept in the dark concerning his parents finances. If average members are expected to make a total commitment spiritually and financially and are expected to disclose personal things, then it should also apply to those at the very top. God is no respecter of persons.

<font size="+1">1776!</font>

[matt_hatter]

Good post 40 and Merry Christmas if I don't get to say it in a few days. You too Gingah!!

I think it is difficult for some in other cultures to understand the American spirit. Getting rich 'in the name of God' just does not play well with many of us who work hard, have two incomes, and do what we can to make a life for ourselves. To read how my old friend 'nasso has treated people, living in luxury, and never exceeding a church of around 200 just doesn't sit well with me. I think if Agee were to see how some of these people live, and how little they deserve it, he may change his tune.

Have I moved on? Sure have. But I will continue to speak out, not just on issues relating to EN, but all of these jiveazz preachers who live lifestyles that are not congruent with doing the Lord's work.

[coppertree]

<font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Amen Matt,

I know that it is difficult as with someone like X-Man, who is entwined with being saved by a pastor; this can led to being soulishly tied to someone under the gospel as promoted by this group.

I think that this is why people don't speak out in MCM/MSI/EN. It is the most insidious part of this ministry. It the Lord who draws people to Him through His spirit. MCM put too much confidence in the flesh of man, and 40 is right when he points out that mixing that MCM/MSI/EN 's gospel with extreme shepherding turns out so badlly.

I think that the lavish life style comes out of the entitlement, as they believe in this system that they are on a mission from God, and can't be touched. They lord over the laity, as rulers. So they ask and expect tribune from the laity.}

[lc_20]

Hi. I have been reading along and catching up.

To Ageeh, I would like to say: I hear the anxiety in your posts as you defend EN and make accusation against the posters here. I know that feeling of anxiety that comes from defending a group against issues raised which you know are true. I felt that way for two years before getting out of MSI/EN. I also defended them when I first found this board. But, I knew there was no defense. So, I have hope that God is opening your eyes to the truth. I think you posted that you had talked to EN leaders about Maranatha. I am sure their response was to tell you not to read things like this any more. That is what they told me. They will check on you and if you are still educating yourself on the methods of spiritual abuse, they won't ever trust you or include you in their inner circle with good reason. Their manipulative tricks won't work on you any more. It is a painful process, but I believe you will be set free if not of your own will then by EN simply because you thought to ask questions and educate yourself.