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sam_i_am (sam_i_am)
12-28-2004, 05:27 AM
PEOPLE & LIFESTYLE: Church Statesman Proposes 'Ethical Accountability'

A respected church statesman has issued a proposal to confront the growing crisis in ministerial ethics. Noting that credibility cannot exist without accountability, Jack Hayford has proposed the formation of an International Council for Ethical Accountability (ICEA).
"Favoritism, greed, shoddy morals and shady ethics have found a comfortable home in the church," the founding pastor of Church on the Way in Van Nuys, Calif., and chancellor of The King's College and Seminary wrote in the November/December issue of "Ministries Today" (MT) magazine, out now.

"The world may justify its own moral and ethical relativism in certain arenas of life, but it has every right to hold the church's feet to the fire concerning its belief that morals and ethics have absolutes to which the church must answer. In short, the world is saying, 'Practice what you preach.'"

Hayford noted that there has been "no standard policy guiding the body of Christ as it deals with its mavericks - the small but growing number of leaders who make their own rules and flaunt the ethical demands" of a disciple.

"I recognize that, by the very fact of my proposal, I become vulnerable to charges of Phariseeism," Hayford wrote. "But my history is generally known for an absence of moral posturing, and a track record of seeking to serve fallen leaders in ways of grace and discipline in hopes of recovering their marriages and/or ministries."

Most of the leaders interviewed by MT agreed with Hayford's proposal, saying it takes courage since such a stand is likely to arouse fierce opposition. Additionally, most said that Hayford should lead the organization.

"Knowing there's a group that can blow the whistle can keep you honest," said Mike Bickle, founder of the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, Mo. "The vast numbers who are trying to hide something will protest against a group like this because it signs a death sentence for their deception."

The man whose highly-publicized fall from grace served as a harbinger of today's ethical quagmire supports the ICEA concept. But after finding little grace when the Praise The Lord network collapsed, Jim Bakker wonders whether an accountability council would use love and humility to restore fallen leaders.

"I believe the only answer in an organization of this type is not more law," said Bakker, who recently returned to television in Branson, Mo.

If the church isn't careful, Bakker warned it will lapse back into judgment and condemnation. "I pleaded with those who came to me from the church world not to go to the courts or the press," he said. "What we need in the body of Christ is elders like the Scriptures talk about - like a 'supreme court' of the kingdom of God."

C. Peter Wagner, leader of the International Coalition of Apostles (ICA), echoed Bakker's sentiments.

"I have some concerns about the structure that Jack Hayford suggests, but I have no questions that we must deal with the issues," he explained. After reading Hayford's proposal, Wagner decided to hold a panel discussion about "practicing what you preach" at ICA's annual meeting this month.


from: http://www.tvbn.com/index.html?http://www.tvbn.com/Charisma/CharismaNewsUpdate20031202.html

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
12-28-2004, 05:49 AM
What is your take on an ICEA concept? As a pastor trained by and connected to GGWO, I would be intrerested to hear what you personally think.

terra_cognita (terra_cognita)
12-28-2004, 12:42 PM
Maria T, your response stifles communication with Bruce. He presents an interesting concept of accountability with churches and you respond with rudeness. I think letting him respond to RJ's question would have eliminated much of what you said to him.
I haven't agreed with Bruce on many things but I have never found him to "beat the hell out of people" here on Factnet. I haven't found him "overbearing or hostile".
When I read comments, I look to see if I need to be corrected in my thinking. If I don't need correction, I then allow it to sharpen my framework of thinking and how I express myself. I find this posting interesting and wonder if he will share it with the elders.

boss_martian (boss_martian)
12-28-2004, 01:21 PM
I think Bakker's quote says a lot: "I pleaded with those who came to me from the church world not to go to the courts or the press."

Now why would Jim say that? After all, here was a truly Godly man, beloved by tens of thousands. Why, he was so blessed, he could afford an air conditioned dog house so his poor dogs wouldn't have to suffer in the heat. PUH-LEASE!!

This is just another attempt to 1) paint GGWO as a good ministry that has lost its way instead of the personality cult that it is, and 2) enable Carl and GGWO to avoid facing up to the abuses they have committed. The real purpose of this ICEA is to keep all the dirt "in house" since anything negative that gets out to the secular world will tarnish the church's image.

How about the novel idea of minister's conducting themselves in a manner that is above reproach to begin with? If ministers don't conduct themselves in an honorable fashion, they should be subject to the exact same treatment as any other wrongdoer.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)
12-28-2004, 02:12 PM
I'm in favor of the idea of some kind of Christian coucil or even court, made up of individuals from different reputable ministries; limited to one vote from any given ministry. Perhaps Graham's ministry would be better to lead in forming the structure of it. But it would only be as good as the degree to which fallen leaders would take its counsel and/or decisions. If GGWO would actually bind itself to decisions from outside itself, then you would have the beginning of hope for it. But I think that if it was really studied, there'd have to be a lot of outside pastors taking up positions in GG for some time to come. If everyone who is abused would take their marbles and leave, the 'game' would be over. You can't have effective abuse without victims. Maybe all the victims should get together and form a union. I'm not trying to be funny. If you have to leave to do it, then leave. You are not legally bound to stay. And you can have a voice here. There are many in the Baltimore area that have already left. Seek them out. Abusers want you to stand alone. They want you to think that you need them. You don't.

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)
12-28-2004, 02:18 PM
1 Cor. 6:1-8 (ESV)
When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? [2] Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? <font color="ff0000">And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? [3] Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! [4] So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? [5] I say this to your shame. <u>Can it be that there is <font size="+2">no one among you</font> wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers</u></font>, [6] but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? [7] To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? [8] But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers!

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)
12-28-2004, 02:31 PM
Don't you think, Jim, that having a 'grievance' system within the structure of a particular denomination or ministry is more prone to coverups or biased decisions than one made up of people from different denominations or ministries would be? I suppose that you would want to be careful about which organizations were included; but it seems like there could be groupings that could be appropriate for many different kinds of organizations. It seems to me like it would be more plausible even to the world, and perhaps more along the lines of what God has intended.

anon_brief (anon_brief)
12-28-2004, 07:32 PM
Jim, certainly there are those wise enough to settle a dispute between brothers.

Are there any courageous or righteous enough to use their wisdom?

sam_i_am (sam_i_am)
12-31-2004, 06:28 PM
RJ,
I obviously favor this proposal. GGWO leadership knows this because I post it here publicly. I have also recomended Hayford's approach to restoring leadership (premise: It takes TIME....No "instant" restoration.) privately to key pastors.

Benefits I see:
1.) This would assure a system of acountability for the many independent churches, movements, and pastors in the U.S.

2.) It would help expose, correct, reign in abuses, especially by those using the media to decieve and distort.

3.) It would promote unity in the church universal.

4.) It would provide true retoration for many fallen leaders, increasing the health of the church, and assuring that the legalistic judgementalism grotesquely reflected by many Christians, as illustrated in the ungodly way Jim Bakker was treated by other Christians, and here by such as Boss Martian, will be avoided.

Happy New years to all.

dave_drago (dave_drago)
12-31-2004, 08:36 PM
Prayer of St Francis of Assissi

Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace
Where there is hatred let me sow love
Where there is injury, pardon
Where there is doubt, faith
Where there is despair, hope
Where there is darkness, light and where there is sadness, joy.

O Lord, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled but to console
To be understood as to understand
To be loved as to love
For it is in giving that I receive
It is in pardoning that I am pardoned;
And it is in dying that I am born to eternal life. Amen.

Happy New Years to all and God's peace and grace be upon all those who love the LORD Jesus Christ.
Dave

anon_brief (anon_brief)
01-01-2005, 03:08 AM
Peace is not the absence of war; it is a virtue; a state of mind; a disposition for benevolence; confidence; and justice. ~ Spinoza

isabella (isabella)
01-01-2005, 06:00 AM
HAPPY NEW YEAR...OR NOT