New church

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I don't live in the Baltimore area, but I think this is a good idea; even if gathering together is not done in the formal church sense. A number of us in the Lenox/Lee area gather at times, and we don't just talk about Greater Grace. In fact, we usually don't even mention it. But we pray together and discuss the Word and various aspects of our walk in the Spirit.

It does continue to amaze me, however, that people can go from one place of abuse to another; and some of us carry the abuse in us and perpetrate it on others. But you know that from what you read here. 'Love one another. As I have loved you.' And how did He and does He love us? Think about it and proceed accordingly.

This isn't directed at anyone particular. We all need some refining of our focus in Him.

[lee (lee)]

I find that when I am with friends from TBS, we can really experience 'church'. I enjoy the common bond. I don't always have that in the church we attend now. Now its more about how can we get as many people as possible to church, into a small group,contributing money, time and energy. Once in a while I can make a connection with another, and no its not about spiritual abuse! It's always about God! Sometimes our pastor speaks a message that isn't a 'how to' message but something that is timely and scriptural....wow, I really like that alot. When I spend alot of time in prayer and scripture, I know I've been fellowshipping in good places. It produces fruit......even my time in factnet has produced fruit.....yes good fruit. It challenges me and encourages and heals me.
I know God asked me to make time for factnet. He asked me to put it into my life. Its not an addiction. Sometimes, he asks us to do things that on the surface don't fall into the category of a 'ministry' as we know it.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Hodeuon, you identify some of the issues very well. Your points are valid and worth consideration. I believe it would take a very unique, insightful, specially-skilled person to lead the congregation.

First, IMHO, some kind of assembly of those exiting is necessary, if for no other reason than to provide a face-to-face support network. It would provide familiarity and a sense of belonging. It would maintain past relationships and promote cohesiveness. It would provide a forum in which to address some common challenges and to share information.

While I do not disagree with your thoughts, a few questons come to mind regarding the formation of an offspring church. They are:

Would there be a risk of replicating (unintentionally) a flawed system without first being exposed to healthy practices?

Does exposure to other churches familiarise people with different concepts, making it easier to accept or incorporate new ideas?

Does attending a church where one is homogenised into the congregation decrease stress by providing some anonymity?

Does attending a church where the majority of congregants are not from GG more strongly promote identification with the global church?

Quite a bit of food for thought. Perhaps the first step could be to assemble the group.

(Message edited by Anon Brief on November 16, 2004)

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

houd. It might work. I believe that social clubs are valuable in that people with like interests can connect around that interest. With my next statement I could pull down all kinds of negative reactions from this board, but please realize that I'm not trying to convince anyone...just stating my personal belief...I view churchs as Christian social clubs. That isn't a bad thing so please, please don't think that's what I'm saying...I'm NOT trying to minimize their importance to anyone...just giving you my current paradigm. I like what Doris said about her new experience -- no pressure, no "missed you at prayer meeting" -- just glad to see you whenever you are there. Churches are designed more for people who are already believers. That's not a bad thing...but that is why I liken them to social clubs. In that light what Houd. suggested might work.

File under "for what it's worth."

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Lee,
Glad to see you are doing so well. It reminded me of a quote from someone:

"the church is what is left when the building burns down and the pastor leaves town"

It's not a building it's a people. It's also not an organization but an organism.

Prayer and staying in the Word are two of the best things anyone can do.

M or Michael

[lee (lee)]

Michael....so nice to hear from you again. For anyone not knowing who this is, he has been a friend that helped us in the beginning. He kept us on track and always reminded us of the love of God, the comfort of his word and he spoke words of encouragement to us.
We've been joined by many others, as you can see!
Blessings to you!
lee

[minutus (minutus)]

This is an interesting idea. While we are all pretty much aware of the bad things from GGWO, what are the good things that we would want to see continued in a new church?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Accountability/pluerality of elders

Inclusivity vs elitism (meaning the teaching of the elitist position of the Christian over the unsaved be eliminated so that more would wish to seek Christ and be included)

No concentration of effort to increase numbers

Quiet/humble service to the community (thrift shop, soup kitchens, care for the homeless volunteerism in hospitals, nursing homes, veteran's homes etc...without an agenda to witness and increase numbers...I mean true service)

An equal and balanced emphasis upon a silent witness for Christ rather than only and always the confrontational salvation blitz

ALL children's activities headed by and lead by women only...to reduce the opportunities for sexual abuse.

No teaching on tithing

More emphasis upon caring for the members not just the unsaved

No pastor worship

No large building programs

Missionaries financially supported by the church

Pastor/servant rather than pastor/teacher

Greater sharing of other "portions" from within the membership

(I can't resist this one...sorry, I am a sports fan) No evening service on Super Bowl Sunday *LOL*

Also...everyone here knows that I am an advocate for women in the pastorate, but short of that (because I realize many here do not agree with that) I would want a church that was open to the gifts of the spiritual woman. I have seen many churches where this is done and there is no conflict between the genders. Women are often elders, leaders, etc. If the "church" is not open to women in positions such as elder...I would want the "church" to at least be open to the greater use of the many gifts spiritual woman can offer...beyond the bake sale, children and song duties.

Lastly, I would advocate the inclusion of Christian counselors(men and women), other than the pastor. Many times if the pastors are the only available source of counsel, it is a temptation for the pastor to misuse that control.

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on November 16, 2004)

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I am no fan of organized religion. Too much room for abuse and too little actual belief put into action.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

While I do believe that the organizational elements of the Church produce and enable much of the bondage and abuse; I still don't wish to cut myself entirely off from those elements. I am concerned for those within as well as those without; and I'm not refering specifically to GGWO, although it fits within what I'm saying.

It's sad that grace can be talked about so much, and yet deep down those who are talking often don't live in it or give it to others. And they will not see it unless it is given to them by the Spirit. Logical explanations are not the answer. So we gotta pray, and love them where they're at. They are the Church, too. 'Seeing' may be a ways down the road.

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Lee,
Thanks. It was a trial for me as well and I grew myself. It was a blessing also to. It just got to a point where the discussions were about people, places, and things I couldn't know. I think it was time for others to take over. It's great to see how people are growing stronger.

Doris,
It's joyful to see people freed. I keep thinking of John saying "I have no greater joy than seeing my children walking in the truth". Not that you are my children but it is a great joy to see how people are doing.

M or Michael

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

I wanted to give my input. Coming from a point that I have experience in a couple of denominations and the pros and cons of each’ forms of government and what works and doesn’t, etc. So I copied a couple of post of suggestions with my comments.

Quote:Prayer: A church founded on prayer.

Quote:The Word: the pure Word preached, no funky doctrines.
Both of the above are paramount for not only church but in our individual lives. Some only read the Bible during the sermon or classes. I firmly believe that you will grow. But also a key to this, seeing everyone coming from abuses and distortions of scripture is a good foundation on interpretation. I know I’ve mentioned it before but for those that haven’t. A book that’s relatively small and easy to read “How To Read The Bible For All It’s Worth”. I think it will give you a good foundation on some of the common problems and issues surrounding interpretation. To quote Hank Hanegraaf “biblical interpretation is an art and a science. It is a science it has rules and an art in that the more you use it the better you get at it”. Of course you need both. Also a warning that scripture even says “do not go beyond what scripture says”. I don’t have it in front of me so that’s my loose quote there. But basically not trying to create something new that scripture really doesn’t say just to try to be someone special with some new teaching.

Quote:Body Life: I never had issues with people in the body, just leadership.
Probably the key to this is keeping from a view that one person is MORE anointed than another. We are all anointed by the Holy Spirit if we are His. Now we all are gifted differently and so exercise those differently. But ontologically (nature) there is neither male nor female,….. The pastor is just as much a member of the body as anyone and subject to the body as everyone is.

Quote:Treating all people with equal love: not investing more in others because they have money or status.
James tackles this one about showing partiality. In fact the Bible as well as James had more to say about the poor. But basically treating everyone fairly.

Quote:Accountability/pluerality of elders
It might be good to examine some of the books that other denominations like Methodist have just to see some of the things in how they deal with such things. Some of the proceedings of the committees shows how accountability is built in. Although Methodist get a little wild on committees. Lol It takes a good balance but ensures that people aren’t doing things outside the knowledge of the whole body.

Quote:Inclusivity vs elitism (meaning the teaching of the elitist position of the Christian over the unsaved be eliminated so that more would wish to seek Christ and be included)
I tackled some of that above. But also thinking of something else. The most humbling experience is to think too highly of yourself only to find that God may allow you to fall in sin to show that you are still a sinner. Although a sinner saved by grace, nevertheless still sin. When you humble yourselves and treat the unsaved as examples of how we once lived you have a new respect for them and less likely to exalt yourself.


Quote:No concentration of effort to increase numbers
True. The focus is doing the will of God. It means building relationships, reaching the lost, the poor, the fatherless, the outcast and bringing them into a relationship with Christ. If we’re doing God’s will HE will add to the church. I can have a church full of people doing something but not doing the will of God. I’d rather have a handful of spirit-filled Christians doing God’s will. We tend to try to do like corporations and concentrate on numbers. Be aware what David did when he counted his army.

Quote:Quiet/humble service to the community (thrift shop, soup kitchens, care for the homeless volunteerism in hospitals, nursing homes, veteran's homes etc...without an agenda to witness and increase numbers...I mean true service)

This IS just my input. Be that it may it's just for discussion too.

I'm working on the others as I get time. If people are interested.

M or Michael

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Doris,
It's similar to what I went through when I got saved. I was the first in my family. My wife nearly divorced me over it. She even gave me a mandate to choose her or God. It was a HUGE trial of my faith. I call it the price of truth. Probably closer to the price of faith.

What are you willing to do to know the truth? Sometimes we have to face intense persecution. But standing for the truth is always right, but not always pleasant. It's tough for people to face some realities head on and ask themselves are they willing to face the truth? Mainly because it forces them in many cases to face embarassment, having to admit they were wrong, and then to change.

Oh, btw, my wife was saved after lots of prayer, patience, and leaving it in God's hand. Just recently my son and daughter were saved as well. It makes me wonder what would have happened if my faith would have faltered there.

Keep in prayer and the Word. Our mens group are studying the power of prayer. Satan doesn't want us on our knees. I have a t-shirt "make war on the floor". It has a guy on his knees. Between prayer and the sword of the spirit they are the most powerful weapons ever. Remember, someone prayed for you.

I don't know that I will get to see everyone this side of heaven or not. But I sure do have a lot of hugs available when we all do. I'm looking forward to that.

M or Michael

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Bob,
I can agree with what you're saying on some of those things. Some of them in and of themselves are noble, but it's the motives and putting them into practice that got messed up.

But hopefully people will learn from the mistakes and recognize when things are out of hand. Those were hard lessons but I think the whole body of Christ can benefit from those that learned them very much. Maybe even keep others from falling into the same trap.

M or Michael

[curious (curious)]

Doris you and RJFernalld describe the church of my dreams. I don't mean that in a negative way.
To me it is the only way "church" should be, not what this one has turned into.

To "M" or "Michael" welcome back.

JD

[gostly (gostly)]

Gosh it sounds like a regular zoo at the gorey building.

[i_expose_you (i_expose_you)]

Mr Gorden County executive is a buddy of mine, Hes coming for dinner Saturday.. I thought I better check to make sure that they are zoned for a School.

[gostly (gostly)]

A school, is that what they are calling themseves?

[maria_t (maria_t)]

This past New Year's Day we had an open house at my home. Lots of food and great fellowship in the Spirit. Not meaning to sound hyperspiritual or anything, but the fellowship was absolutely amazing. I have known that this kind of fellowship in the Lord was possible, I believed that it existed, but hardly experienced it while at GGWO. I kept looking and searching for it...long before I had come in the ministry.

Several that post and read here on Factnet also came, what a blessing it was to have such unity and love between us. It was so neat just watching the Lord knit us all closer together. It was great getting to know the Baltimore people posting (and our Deleware friend too).

We're going to do this once a week on Saturday evenings now and share life in the Holy Spirit one with another.

Maria

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Thanks, Doris for that sweet note.

ROTFLMAO about the spiritually constipated raps!! You're so darn funny!!

Yes, there was definately Life in the Spirit there...so refreshing...and having you and Orlando there made it more special considering the drive you made to get to Maryland. It was also neat fellowshipping with Steve & Jeannie...what wisdom they have...such an awesome night to remember.

This saturday there's another one...6:30 p.m.

Maria