The father that still is maligning his son When will he reconcile [Archive]

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-25-2004, 11:34 PM

Well folks. This is exactly what the feeding frenzied elders at GGWO really want to hear...the so-called dissidents at each other's throats in a simple disagreement.

A few thoughts on those who are defending Paul:

I like Paul. I believe him to be an extremely dysfunctional human being, a totally messed up son, a man with a good heart buried under layers of corruption observed and participated in. He does not now belong in a pulpit, in my ever so humble opinion. He is dysfunctional spiritually as well as emotionally and is in need of some serious therapy. Anyone who has lived the life he has lived in that church and that family does not walk away unscathed. I have said this repeatedly...nothing new here. I stick to this position.

"brokenness, repentance - hope for the future after much healing takes place. God is very much present." This, Doris, I believe may very well be the truth. But at this point it is not enough to qualify him to be stable enough within himself to be leading others. I know he is a pastor, has been called to be one and will be an effective one once he clears out all those filthied rooms that exist within him. It would exist in anyone who has been in his position as Carl's son for all these years.

As for those who defend him: I wish you could hear yourselves. It is so strange to hear you say these things to Dave and it makes me sad as well as creeped out.

You sound every bit the same as the GGers who defend Carl to this day. I don't need to be IN Baltimore to understand this dynamic...I lived it for far to long to not recognize it when it is present.

I am not saying not to retain your opinion of Paul, I am saying your voracious attack on Dave for his judgement of the situation is far too close to the defense of Carl we all have heard over the years.

Jeannie, Doris and Maria. I say this with a spirit of grace and humility...you three are newly out of the cult. Many of us know the feeling, know how it hurts, now how deep the indoctrination is and how it can flare up out of nowhere.

Paul is not without his problems and his culpability. Objectivity is necessary at this crucial point. I will tell you...I have NOT EVER spoken to any of the elders and I have done so purposly. So please do not accuse me of being "duped, used or naive". I tend to agree with Dave that Paul is not an innocent any more than Marr is. They were all involved on some level in this mess.

Chruch split? Of course there is a church split. Perhaps that is not ALL that is going on here, but as long aws Paul insists upon having his own congregation and that the congregation leaves daddy's church for the son's...sorry, Paul is encouraging a split either purposly or inadvertantly. This is only ONE piece of a huge frighteningly twisted church that needs to be destroyed because it is rapidly destroying the congregations. Both churches, daddy and sons need to stop, close, end.

Carl will NEVER STOP his destructive misuse of God and men. And as long as Paul plays the same game he is culpable for the discord that is happening. Paul needs to stop...walk away...get out of Maryland and get professional counseling, a new religious education and never be under the influence of ANY of his family (Steve and Daddy) or GGWO again for any reason.

I say this because my father is every bit as toxic as Paul's father is. To totally heal from the excess of toxic effects, I had to walk away. My father will NEVER CHANGE, I had to. Same for Paul. I have not spoken to or been in the presence of my earthly father for years...it had to be, although it wasn't what I wanted.

Now before you DARE say to me what you have had the nerve to say to Dave, think a minute. Dave is a pastor of a fine healthy church and sees this situation though a different lens than you do. He sees differently than I do. This is healthy...remember?

Be prepared to admit that your lenses are not as clear as they might be. You must, and I mean MUST realize this about yourselves as newly removed from the cult. You are newly removed from Carl, but still "with" Paul. This may make your lens even cloudier. Be quiet for a moment, let the anger dissapate...it is an old line this fierce loyalty thing.

I am not saying not to love Paul. I love Paul, but I see the needs that he has not addressed, and will never address if he has the loyal following like his daddy has.

I think Dave is owed an apology, even if you disagree with him. I too am not convinced of his total position on this matter, but he has worked tirelessly to do what he believed God had for him to do. He did this out of love...for you, for me, for all those people at GGWO.

I do not see that saying Paul is partly to blame and has a similar spirit that his father has is in any way "hating" Paul.

I do not hate Paul, but I am not blindly loyal to him either. I would say exactly to him face to face what I have written right here, and you know I would.

Please. Attempt to add and increased measure of objectivity to this equasion? Just because we disagree about Paul, there is no reason to snarl and be angry with Dave.

We must be better than the elders if we ever hope to help this so-called church. We can, we must and here's a really good place to start...and the timing? It is Christmas Day, ladies and gentlemen. Let us endeavor to be men and women of peace with each other even as we disagree? It is the least we can do on the day we celebrate the long ago arrival of the Prince of Peace to this planet.

jeannie (jeannie)

12-26-2004, 12:11 AM

Roberta,

I do not consider my strong disagreement with Dave to be an attack on him.

I do not post on FACTNet because I feel the need to defend Paul. I do feel the need to defend the truth, especially over the past year and half. Dave has been talking to Michael Marr quite frequently since the declaration two weeks ago. He has now posted word for word the lie being repeated by the elders, it is major damage control and it is not the truth.

I am done discussing this. Dave has been informed wrongly. I have said over and over again that I believe Dave's efforts are sincere and godly but he is being duped by men that are very good in the art of lying. It was obvious two weeks ago the elders have no intention of really coming clean. They will lie, twist and destroy anyone to keep their positions. They are deceived and operate from another kingdom. Anyone who puts Christ first is forced out. Ask the many many pastors and staff members who now attend other churches. This has nothing to do with Paul. It is Carl and the elders that have made it about him.

I will no longer defend this, everyone can believe what they desire to. The truth will be revealed. God is doing the exposing and no damage control will be able to cover up the truth this time. I am secure in His results. He will not be mocked.

dr_r (dr_r)

12-26-2004, 12:41 AM

The very first time I met Paul, years ago, we had a nice casual conversation about many things. We seemed to hit it off right away and what I remember most was his Spirit. He seemed genuinely concerned about people in the congregation. He also seemed to be at odds with a few Doctorinal issues we spoke about in which I questioned his fathers teachings as I had heard them. He seemed to be very uncomfortable, even back then, with what his father had been teching from the pulpit. This was many years ago. Paul and I have had many conversations in the past and I always felt he dissagreed with his father. I also felt that he was very conflicted with how to handle it.

I won't ever say that Paul and I became friends, although he seemed to like me from the start. He is a very private individual and I believe it would be very hard to get really close to him.

That being said, I have spoken to many that have been to the new church and speak of the difference in spirit between there and CHS's church. They say that Paul has begun to grow in his own direction and very definately AWAY from his father.

I just pray that Paul will seek the Lord's will in his life and continue on the road to the truth...God's Truth!

By the way...

Merry Christmas and Blessing to ALL...even CHS...

chris (chris)

12-26-2004, 01:17 AM

Those of us in the Baltimore area have much better insight into the situation here -- first hand. Everyone else is receiving second hand information only. Or you are having conversations with elders and pastors who you do not know well, if at all...you have not watched their lives the way we have. You can be easily deceived and misled by them. Many of you who left a long time ago and are not in the area think that you can see things more clearly. That is not necessarily true. You are far removed from the current situation in years and distance.

Jeannie is very wise and discerning. She also has been far enough removed to see the situation objectively...she is loving but not sentimental...certainly not living in wounds as some have suggested. Everyone would do well to listen carefully to what she has to say. She is much more in touch with what is really going on here than any of you.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-26-2004, 03:53 AM

I still disagree that people who are still close to the situation, that have not been out very long have the corner on objectivity, the "truth" about the situation or is in better touch with the situation than people who are not directly in Baltimore.

Why?

Because what is happening now is not new. This is another rerun...oh the players may be different, the outside may have changed, but the dynamcs of what is happening is so apparent, so close to the plethora of other situations where Carl has caused trouble with his BS it is basically the same.

Sorry, folks, there isn't much difference. You are still new out of the church. I guarantee you, your attitudes will adjust, you will see things you do not see now and from the distance others do. Hey...you wanted the people who have been out for a long time to come back and join. We did...but so many times you don't like that we sometimes disagree with you because we see things differently.

I say again. I like Paul. I have known him and of him for a long time. I wish only the best for him...but I say again, he needs distance. Brokeness is not enough to be a healthy pastor, or a healthy husband for that matter. Of all of us old and new, he needs help. He has seen more than any of us about the corruption and lies and garbage, and has participated in it as Carl's son and a GGWO pastor. His indoctrination never ever stopped and was likely more intimate that it was for us. I want to see him REALLY free, and I do not believe he is ever going to do it as long as this present situation he has put himself in continues.

Chris, you seem to think that you all know more than those of us removed by time and distance? I wish you could see from our perspective. You might understand that this senario is as old as Carl himself. Jeannie is wise, discerning and passionate...so are others. So are we that have been gone a long time, dear. So is Dave Drago. He isn't so foolish as to believe everything he hears. Even from all of you.

I think you might look at this from another point of view, those of you who are so quick to jump on Dave's words and mine. I have been fighting for the same things you are, for the same reasons and have been for far more years than some of you. That doesn't make me special...but it does not make me unaware of what is going on either. There are things I could tell you that you have never even suspected, about things that happened years ago and are happening today.

I do not revel in the fact that I also know what happens and has happened in the so-called "inner circle" like it is a personal coup. I hate knowing the things I know. I don't find this fun, funny, a competition or something to gloat over. I just want people to be free, just like you do.

If you need to think that your inside info makes you more aware of what is happening, I suggest to you that this is a symptom of continuing cutic influence upon your thinking processes. Been there, done that. It is part of the process of detoxification.

I fully intend to continue to say I what I observe, what I think and express how I feel just like you do. You can dismiss it as from someone who doesn't know what is going on as intimately as you do, or not. I still think how you spoke to Dave and how you are now addressing me with this defense mechanism is a bit unkind and dismissive.

This does sound every bit like the people who defended Carl and dismissed my husband and I years ago when we were threatened by the "inner circle" ...how childish that phrase is.

I am dismayed a bit at this attitude here today but I expected it would rear its ugly head eentually. Disagreeing with Dave on his thoughts about what is going on are one thing, but this did sound, from the perspective of "distance and time" just like the attacks that came against all of you when you disagreed with Carl.

Passion is a necessary element in any struggle. One cannot do without it. But, as I learned with Jim on this thread, two opposing strong forces can destroy a cause they both believe in if they do not accept each othewr, respect each other and one not claim superiority over the other.

I am so glad that although Jim and I seldom agree on many doctrinal issues here, I know he cares about me and respects me, as I do him.

"Everyone would do well to listen carefully to what she (Jeannie) has to say. She is much more in touch with what is really going on here than any of you."

Chris, I think this statement that Jeannie or anyone knows more about this than any of us...meaning any of us who are estranged from you in Baltimore by "time and distance" is a polarizing statement...which is not helpful to the cause we are all working toward. Nor is it necessarily true.

To say that Dave is being duped by Marr seems okay for you all to say. For me to say you may not be as objective as you think you are because you are newly removed from the church and still retain a good deal of the indoctrination is anathema...so tell me...what is wrong with this picture? If you can't see it, I may be more right that I even myself imagined.

I wrote this with genuine belief in my words, a spirit of grace toward you all and with a sad heart that you really think these things about those of us who have been fighting for this freedom for more years than some of you have even been in the ministry at all.

Don't you get it? We are all on the same team. Or...we're supposed to be. Please try to stop and look at this from all sides so that the bigger picture emerges? We were not allowed to do that inside the cult. Out here in the real world it is extremely necessary to do.

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on December 25, 2004)

bells_joy (bells_joy)

12-26-2004, 05:25 AM

all I can say is, 5 minutes with "his" son, and you'd see your rush to judgement. NO ONE knows more than the-pastor-of-the-Finished-Work-Ministry (dare I call it "Paul's church"?) that your judgements are 150% wrong-o. You of all people, Dave, ought to be praising JESUS that this son-of-carl saw the light, and RAN from the darkness. Dave, I dare you to give Paul the one-on-one time you've allowed that night-MARR, and listen to his take on the situation.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-26-2004, 05:53 AM

1 Corinthians 3:4 (New Life Version)

4 When one says, 'I am a follower of Paul,' and another says, 'I am a follower of Apollos,' does not this sound like the talk of baby Christians?

jeannie (jeannie)

12-26-2004, 05:57 AM

RJ, We are on the same team and I appreciate all you have shared here. I am not discussing with Dave on spiritual abuse issues but EVENTS that have occurred here in Baltimore. First person experiences are quite different than listening to an elder explain past events. This has been an ongoing situation that occurred in real time to real people. Many of us were there and were privy to them that is quite different than someone recieving information now twisted to keep the damage control machine going.

It would be different if all was on the repair here in GGBaltimore but that is not the case. CHS is still home high and demented, families are still being torn apart and the elders are still saying this is all about sides, church split and Paul and it is simply a lie. Should I overlook the truth to get along with the current thought of FACTNet or should I continue to speak the truth? Will it help others to just go along? It has cost us all so much to stand for truth, for what is right and I am not about to stop now.

Paul was made the scapegoat and everyone here in Baltimore who wears the mark knows this truth. Even those who do not feel any leading to be a part of the HdG church know this fact. Dave Drago in his sincere efforts to help has received untruths. Marr is part of very deceptive counterfeit operation and even if he is sincere, he is sincerely deceived. Until a leader takes a stand and removes himself from the GG operation he is still under operational evil. It is all they know and they learned well under the master.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-26-2004, 06:25 AM

Jeannie, I think you of all people know better than to ever think I would want anything but the truth. However...Dave Drago is not the only person I have heard have a problem about Paul. I myself had a serious run in with him AFTER I left GG when he barged into my house uninvited...literally put his foot in the door and pushed his way past us to see someone who was here at the time. I was about ready to call the police and have him bodily removed had he not left when he did.

I know others over the years who have known Paul differently than some. He has not got a spotless reputation. However, I do believe he is sincere about his leaving. Perhaps what Dave thinks is based upon his own experience. Have you even talked to Dave about what he and Marr talked about? Or is it the assumption that because he feels the way he does about Paul it is a mimicing of others?

Dave has known Paul at least from being a student in Lenox. Dave was a student at SSB like I was. He has a right to an opinion. Have you asked or assumed where his opinion originated? THAT is what I am asking.

So, you were privy to the events and I trust that they happened. However, were you privy to the discussions Dave actually had with Marr?

I know Marr is deceptive, and I have never spoken to the man. It doesn't take a genius to observe this. However...do you know for sure, were you there, did you ask what Dave and Marr talked about? The answer might surprise you. Or not...but has anyone asked?

You also know that I care about Paul, and I have repeated my opinions many times that I do not believe he is pulpit material right now. I assure you it my own personal opinion and NOT anything I heard from anyone else.

Dave is not the only person who is suspicious about Paul. I know that for a fact also. Many in Baltimore who have left don't trust what is happening. Why? Because they have seen senarios like this before and are not so convinced as you even by the retelling. I know people who have left GGWO who don't trust Paul and they were privy to some pretty intense stuff too.

Jeannie, all I am trying to say, is that I know you are passionate about what you have seen and what you know. No one can argue that. No one, especially me is against you in any way. I am only trying to point out that there is a difference... a split in opinions about Paul and it does cause trouble, it does cause people to stumble, and it has nothing to do with the current and ongoing situation. Some I know didn't trust Paul BEFORE this scapegoat situation and they had their reasons.

Is that a difficult thing to understand? He is NOT universally embraced, he never has been and likely won't be. Not a crime, no big deal, really. All I am saying is that some people have a right to think what they think and it may NOT be based on what they hear from elders, or what they hear from you. Some people draw conclusions based on OTHER info they have first hand or from other experiences.

Not all the negatives about Paul are from the scapegoat episode. Has anyone asked Dave why he came to the conclusions he did about Paul, or is it just assumed that he is a puppet and parroting what he has heard? If so, that is unfair.

Are these viable questions even though I am not in Baltimore? Yes they are.

But will anyone answer them without saying because I am not there I can't possibly understand? I think I understand all too well.

Am I decieved too?

lee (lee)

12-26-2004, 03:40 PM

Oh what a tangled web we weave!

What a pattern of lies, deceptions, exaggerations, party spirits, tunnel vision, out of focus vision, too much emphasis, not enough emphasis, too much emotion, not enough emotion, close physical proximity, not close enough.....

Is this really about who is right and who is wrong? Is this an attempt to get into B & W thinking again, or can we see all the colors and flavors?

Is what we've done here a success or a failure? I think its both. We've successfully brought much truth to many people. We've attempted to bring those in charge into account , hoping they would repent. Is that they're failure or ours, to not get the desired result? Those who've read these pages and wrestled with whether what is written is the truth or not, will all have the responsibility to do something about it.

For me, I think I've done what God has asked me to do. I don't think I've had a clear cut B & W ability to know exactly what to do and why and when and how, but now that all this time has past, I'm more confident than ever, that I've done my part, and will continue, as I'm able.

I think many posting here have done that as well. Am I in close proximity to all of you? No, but I can know of the sacrafice you've made to participate. I know you have to stick your necks out, into a medium that is unfamiliar to most of us. Who would have thought that we'd be travelling the info highway when we were students preparing for the mission field or pastorate?

I think I know something of the fear that has to be faced to put yourselves out there for all to read.

I think we've all done a superb job of proceeding with love, concern, hard work. I think we've exhibited humility and repented ourselves when necessary. I think we've seen through our disagreements to see the real person behind the disagreement.

I think the work here on FACTNet will stand solidly into the future.

I think that many will need more time apart from the whirlwind of commotion generated by all the talk, to come to grips with the impact this ministry has on their lives.

I think we will rejoice because of many things and I think we'll be disappointed as well.

I choose to agree with Jeannie......that we've spit in the eye of the devil, and brought much light to many, rather than agree with Bruce Moon, who says, we are nothing more than pickers of bones.

I also believe, that we must all take responsibility to find our way with God, think with Him, fellowship with His people, accept the challenges and continue to discover more of Him.

There seems to be much more work to do! I am wondering as the new year approaches , what form our 'ministry' will take. I'd like to hear from all of you 'regular factnetters' what you are thinking.......big picture as well as the close up.
thanks to all of you

jeannie (jeannie)

12-26-2004, 04:02 PM

Roberta,

I said "I am compelled to speak the truth."
And receive it as "you don't want the truth". I never said that. You are reading personal implications into my stating of the facts.

Yes, Roberta I have talked to Dave. I first wrote my concerns to him and then I called him. I came away from that conversation more alarmed than I was at first. I really think Dave is a wonderful pastor but his interactions with Marr would fill his head with subtle twisting on the events and they did. Dave has never once written anything that came close to an attack anyone personally, but he did assign the same sociopath qualities to Carl AND PAUL.

Roberta I can't keep trying to explain this to you. I am not writing about my opinion of Paul, I am writing about a much bigger picture. I am writing about the GG tactic of pinning their problems on a scapegoat, developing a canned statement and repeating enough to make it seem like the truth. They did it with 81 conspiracy, with the Dovydenas case and they are doing it now. The scapegoat happens to be Paul this time, the name of the scapegoat does not matter. Look at the bigger picture. Carl's drug abuse will kill him, pastors and staff members privy to the real information have left in droves. Hundeds of the congregation have left, families are marking their own children. They have Carl up on the stage last Sunday night slurring "my children, my children" and one of the pastor's figures out Carl is talking about the high schoolers and next thing you know Carl has the students marching around the building repeating "one pastor, one pastor." This is really sick stuff. Firstly, because the leaders allow Carl to use the children and secondly they allow Carl to openly make a fool of himself. I do not know of one family whose parent has dementia that would allow this to go on. The family always works hard at protecting their loved ones dignity. These men do not love their spiritual father. They are just like Carl,they do the same things! The damage control machine rolls along per usual. Until there is an onslaught of the IRS and government authorities, lawsuits and media attention, they will continue to speak the party line, which is: Blame others and never admit the guilt and keep recruiting.

lee (lee)

12-26-2004, 04:15 PM

Think about the history......its long and eerily similar. You can apply it to many situations in churches, families and corporations....the temptation is to always make it personal, to take the focus off what is really going on.

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

12-26-2004, 05:01 PM

Here is the BIG PICTURE:
1 Tim. 3:1-7 (ESV)
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. [2] Therefore an overseer must be

above reproach,

the husband of one wife,

sober-minded,

self-controlled,

respectable,

hospitable,

able to teach,

[3] not a drunkard,

not violent but gentle,

not quarrelsome,

not a lover of money.

[4] He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive,

[5] for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church?

[6] He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.

[7] Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

The above are REQUIREMENTS, not suggestions or ought-to-be's, for every man who fills the office of pastor or elder. These qualities should have been observed OVER A SUBSTANTIAL TIME, especially if there has been sin and restoration, to show that the man is stable and trustworthy.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-26-2004, 05:25 PM

Good Heavens Jeannie...then give up trying to "explain this" to me. *LOL* You seem to think I do not understand what you are saying, but I do. I understand all too well, unfortunately. Some do not think so, I know, but I do really understand what is happening. I have known for years it would come to this and have simply been waiting and watching it happen.

"the temptation is to always make it personal, to take the focus off what is really going on."

I agree with you Lee, to a point. But I think that the bigger picture isn't more important than the individuals involved. I merely wanted to make sure that Dave had been asked about what he thinks, and it not just be assumed. I believe people are important and simply wanted to clarify the issue.

This feels so much like deja vu...

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-26-2004, 05:30 PM

I think it has taken me some time to understand your repeated emphasis upon this section of scripture, Jim. But I see this clearly in relationship to Paul and his father clearer this morning. Thank you.

lee (lee)

12-26-2004, 05:41 PM

okay, I'll try again! What I'm saying is that its not a question of whose right or wrong, or who sees close up or far away, who knows the people involved or doesn't......its all of it! Personal and the big picture.

We were all personally ripped off by a man that did not meet the qualifications as noted by Jim. Those things that he practices are indeed passed along......they will not stop having an affect until and unless that person STOPS it. When you put a stop to the abuse yourself, your part in it, it will affect the big picture.

does that make anymore sense?

I don't think we can go forward without the whole story.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-26-2004, 05:47 PM

I understood you Lee when you posted above. The whole story is exactly what we need, I agree wholeheartedly.

lee (lee)

12-26-2004, 06:06 PM

Good!

I think I'm looking for the next step and evaluating what has taken place up to now. It's that time of year you know! I have a friend that will call in a few days and she will ask me as she has asked for the last few years.....'What is God saying to you for this next year?' ' Did He give you a verse?' 'Tell me what you are thinking about your walk with God this year and how willl it be different this next year?'
I've finally learned to take the time to assess and talk to God about things like this. Not only to give her an answer, but to acknowledge that another year has gone by and what did I do? Not that the emphasis has to be on doing, but doing will come as a result of spending time with God.....little did I know that 2004 would lead me into a revisit of TBS! Little did I know it would bring some incredible treasures in reconnecting with those I thought I had to leave behind.
Forgive the sentimentality......its almost a new year and its (TBS/GGWO) still a mess!!!

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-26-2004, 06:20 PM

".....little did I know that 2004 would lead me into a revisit of TBS! Little did I know it would bring some incredible treasures in reconnecting with those I thought I had to leave behind. "

I have been thinking the same things Lee! I never could have forseen that we'd be actually openly discussing the TRUTH about TBS/GGWO with so many otheres...that we'd be imnvolved with making a difference...that so much would have transpired!

It makes me feel glad that it is proof once again the God is faithful to those prayers we have all silenty prayed since leaving the cult behind. We have a lot to be thankful for don't
we? And I am excited to see what God will lead us to in the coming year.

lee (lee)

12-26-2004, 06:25 PM

amen!!!
the fullness of my life is just so satisfying! I agree we have much to be thankful for.

gostly (gostly)

12-26-2004, 06:34 PM

Maybe he is a better actor and better at covering up what he truly believes?

bruder5 (bruder5)

12-26-2004, 10:00 PM

Solidify the center, negotiate the edges. Experiences in TBS/GGWO are similair regardless of how much time a persons been out. Remember, the language of abuse and power hasn't changed since 1971. Some are closer to the wirlwind then others. Those that left recently have much to offer, those that left years ago have a little "post traumatic wisdom." Combining the passion of both can create a powerful dialog. (In fact it has.) Authentic story fueled the power of the early church. Lee speaks of reconnection...In many ways it may be a time of gathering where thoughts are hammered out and a sense of mission is birthed. Here's hoping that birth can be found in the continued conversation.

bells_joy (bells_joy)

12-27-2004, 01:11 AM

Good thing King David...(you know, the one that will be the Prince of the Millenial Reign) lived a life "above reproach, and AAAALWAYS held in high regard by outsiders." Good thing his sins were never exposed for all generations to come. Imagine if we could pat ourselves on the back as we read of his sins... none of us would dream of falling like HE did. Just knowing that once we sin WE HAVE TO WEAR IT FOREVER, BABY, keeps me from EVER falling. I don't know about you all, but it gives me a great sence of comfort knowing our Millenial Prince is among those of us who are above reproach.....
Find a perfect man, with a perfect wife, perfect kids, who has never fallen from grace (is that possible? how exciting!!)... let's alll go to HIS church, because surely He is good enough to open that book and show us the way of salvation, redemption, mercy.
Clearly any of us who have ever been associated with TBS/ GGWO are guilty by association. Damn it all.... I'm lost.

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

12-27-2004, 02:21 AM

Good King David repented of his sin (see Psalm 51) and suffered for his adultery by losing one child, having Absolom rebel against him and having his Kingdom divided after his son Solomon's death. I remember distinctly Carl Stevens bringing up great sinners of the Bible when confronted with sin. He just avoided mentioning the consequences. Samson did not die an old man passing on his office of judge to his son peacefully, he died blind under a pile of rubble--the eyes which caused him to sin in lust after Delilah put out by fire. Sin can be forgiven, the qualities to be observed in a pastor or elder must be observed over time. Of course the typical approach for GG or FW types is to water down or throw out the scriptures. The verses in 1 Tim 3 are NOT for the perfect man and his wife but for exemplary humans who are to be held accountable for their actions. It is possible to restore a fallen pastor--that man has to at least recognize and admit that he HAS fallen to BE restored and that takes humility. Humility, in case you have not observed is not a Stevens family trait.

Apt to TEACH? That means that the sense must be given to what is preached from the Scriptures. None of the Stevens have any theological or scriptural background other than what they learned from dear old Dad--same song, new tune. Same error.

dave_drago (dave_drago)

12-27-2004, 04:44 AM

“Not all the negatives about Paul are from the scapegoat episode. Has anyone asked Dave why he came to the conclusions he did about Paul, or is it just assumed that he is a puppet and parroting what he has heard? If so, that is unfair.”

1. Thank you Roberta! Before I address your remark I think I need to state that all this “he’s deceived, he’s naïve, he’s sincere” is so GGWO. At first I found it offensive. But, then I found it tragic. Why? Because, the labeling of those we do not understand or disagree with is so typical of the indoctrination that we were exposed to. It is also sad we have to be so suspicious of those we do not agree with. I do not believe Jeannie, Doris, etc are deceived. They see it different than me. Some of you consider me a lackey for Marr, or a simpleton who is easily deceived. You are entitled to your opinions. We all have two opinions like we all have two armpits and most of them stink. Now, if I told you Jesus Christ is not LORD then I would be deceived. But, I have not. I am not deceived and I am not Marr’s stooge. I do not know….maybe some of you were, I am not. I am not “receiving information now twisted to keep the damage control machine going”. I see this differently. All I have done is tried to reach out and offer help and encouragement while challenging some doctrinal errors. I have planted a few seeds.

2. I have also made a few observations. Perhaps, I should clarify. My observations and comparisons/contrasts have nothing to do with the Scapegoat episode. Since so many are curious about the nature of my conversations with Mike Marr, I will fill you in. FYI, Michael Marr and I have talked very little about Paul or anyone else for that matter. I approached him as a friend via email and then via phone to encourage him to do the right thing. We have engaging conversations regarding doctrine and polity. My emphasis has been to discuss repentance, team work on the elder council, the anointing, delegated authority, one pastor, biblical eldership and the qualifications of an elder, geographical will, church government, Baptist distinctive, the priesthood of believers, God’s Sovereignty and the free will of man, just to mention of few. BTW, I enjoy our conversations, and I plan on building a friendship with him. Perhaps, you should gather the mob now and grab your torches and pitchforks; we both turn into ogres after dark! Did I mention we plan on purchasing a swamp? We want to go the organic route in our diet…maybe Dave Alexander will join us. We are both still debating who Shrek is and who donkey is. We will make a statement soon on that one.

3. I arrived at my conclusions about the roots and fruit of the ‘ministry’ on doctrine, patterns of behavior since Maine and conversations with many people in and out of GGWO (including Christian leaders who have never been involved with GGWO).
My observations were to point out that flawed doctrines and a cheap grace are the deep structural problems of GGWO. The errors and prideful attitude are what cause the surface problems at GGWO.

4. The whole Lang affair from start to finish is normal GGWO behavior. I never implied, inferred or oversimplified that Paul is the problem at Baltimore. His actions and the resulting church split are a symptom of the much deeper rooted doctrinal errors. And, in my opinion, if you don’t think that “Paul’s church” is a split you are not deceived you are ignorant. The defense of the guilty is also normal fruit of the GGWO doctrinal error of “the nanner- nanner I repented you cannot touch me theology”…this goes all the way back to Maine when the deacons of the Baptist church tried to confront and correct Carl. It has born fruit in his son. I believe the elders rolled over for or encouraged Paul (depending on who you talk to) when he wanted to intervene for his father. And, they distanced themselves from him when the intervention backfired…aaah, the politics of religion. I stick to my analysis that he loved his dad. However, I also believe he seized the opportunity to take his ‘rightful place’ in the ministry. Regardless of my opinion, the actions of Paul and the actions of Carl and the actions of the elders are the result of doctrinal error and a prideful attitude across the spectrum.

5. I also believe that bringing specialized Evangelical organizations in for a season to help the church rid themselves of false doctrines and heal the wounds, while setting goals for the future health of the church would be wise- for both congregations. However, the history of the organization’s behavior dictates that this is unlikely. Because, to do so would go against their foolish and unfounded pride that they are superior to other Christians...If that ever occurs then I will believe that they have really began to change.

6. I have a question: If nobody is willing to engage the elder(s) in doctrinal and behavioral problems then how will anything get done?

For Him,
Dave

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-27-2004, 04:54 AM

"None of the Stevens have any theological or scriptural background other than what they learned from dear old Dad"

THIS is the crux of the problem. ALL of the pretend pastors who have been taught by Carl, ordained by Carl and who live the lies Carl taught them are frauds. That is not to say they were not probably called to be pastors, for only God knows that...but if any man was a graduate of the bible schools Stevens has founded, he was taught false doctrine and never was truly an acceptable pastor.

This includes Paul, Steve and anyone else who reads this and was ordained by Carl. Paul can do nothing BUT preach error, as that is all he has known. Do I think he would be an effective preacher if he were relieved of the burden of false doctrine, was taught orthodox theology and removed completely from ALL cult influence, daddy and congrgations alike? Yes, I think he would..only a personal observation.

Leaving GGWO is a baby step that doesn't qualify him for hero status. He needs to exit the pulpit altogether and get his head and heart repaired. That is what the rest of us have had to do, and are still in the process of doing since leaving. The people who have newly exited may not realize the process takes time, effort, and committment if one is to expunge the deep indoctrination that has taken place.

I pray Paul and everyone else gets out, gets real gets help and stops living in denial that this first few steps are the whole journey.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-27-2004, 05:13 AM

Bravo, my friend! I admire your determination to speak the truth. I could not have the conversations with Marr that you are having for I do not have the temperment *s*. I am glad you are doing it because I have come to see that your wisdom is not naivete. I see that what you are able to accomplish with planting seeds is critical to the process we all are involved in. The quiet possibilites of God are always present when patience and quietness are employed on His behalf it is true.

Anyone who thinks you don't have your own brain, your own discernment and walk with God hasn't been paying attention. I made the same mistake about you once awhile ago, remember? I misjudged your behind the scenes efforts. We we able to speak together and I could see clearly then that I was very wrong.

I will pray that God will continue to bless your efforts and that much fruit will be the result. If we cannot believe God in this, how can we believe Him for anything else!

terra_cognita (terra_cognita)

12-27-2004, 12:38 PM

Dave,
I think it is also good that you have a platform to speak to elders. Concerning point #6, it is not that people are not willing to engage the elders. Please remember that many of us have been marked and vilified by lies spread by CHS and the elders. We are shunned when we bump into current attendees of GGWO due to these lies.
I think that #5 should be mandatory. The sick cannot heal themselves. Also unrepentant leadership are blind to their own sins. This is what I think some were trying to communicate to you. The elders talk a good talk and give the appearance of change or willingness for change but there is none. There is none because they do not see the need for it. Canned statements have appeased and controlled the thoughts of many for years. It works and that is why they continue to do it.

jeannie (jeannie)

12-27-2004, 03:51 PM

Dave,

The problem is you see GG as a leadership who have made some doctrinal errors and practiced some bad behavior. Many of us see GG with another operational spirit that is counterfeit to Christ in nature and operation. We see a church the operates in every aspect like Lifton's bite-model of a cult.

You say why won't we deal with the elders on doctrine and behavior and we say we have and we have been marked and our reputations destroyed, including Paul.

I made decision two weeks ago to draw a line in the sand concerning the leadership of GG. I discerned real evil from the leaders in their damage control behavior and it was infecting with another spirit. You decided to enter into conversation with the very spirit that I discerned was evil. Your Christmas Eve post was the result. Your above post reflects your receiving deceptive words from self-serving men, Marr have deceived you Dave. And now you add the deceptive words to this forum with a superior spirit that you never possessed before on the board. And you ask why we won't talk to those wonderful elders?? You don't think you have been deceived?? Those wonderful elders have destroyed the reputations of my loved ones and friends! All because we did stand up for the truth and demanded accountability!

There are too many hurting people to continue to expend energy defending my position of the facts while Marr has your ear. You can write whatever you desire here, and Jim and Roberta will applaud you but you have lost quite of people who are disgusted by the turn here on FN, including me.
I find this spirit chilling and destructive and I will not be posting here anymore.

For those who need to reach please email @Jeannieree44@aol.com

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-27-2004, 06:48 PM

"There are too many hurting people to continue to expend energy defending my position of the facts while Marr has your ear. You can write whatever you desire here, and Jim and Roberta will applaud you but you have lost quite of people who are disgusted by the turn here on FN, including me.
I find this spirit chilling and destructive and I will not be posting here anymore"

Well...this is unfortunate. I will send this post to your email as you say you will not be on FN anymore.

Jeannie, there are many avenues to making a difference with GGWO, Dave is employing one. You have accomplished much, so have we all. As you said once we all have different gifts that can be utilized in this struggle. Dave is exercising his.

Most of us drew a line in the sand years ago, Jeannie. We understand where you are coming from. Are we all deceived if we do not approach this situation in the same manner that you do? That isn't true, Jeannie. There are many ways to deal with this cult.

Dave knows it is cultic, it is not correct biblically and that Marr is generally deceived about Carl and church polity. Everyone knows that. He also knows that many are shunned and marked and cannot do what he is doing. And if what he is doing is of no help, at least it is a base covered by an outside pastor.

Jim found a mechanism to address the needs of the wounded, showing the elders what our general complaints are...and yet I did not see many come forward. It is another way to biblically address the probllem. Is Jim also decieved?

What I am saying is that we are not unaware of the big picture, who is who and what is what. We know this place is dangerous, the men are evil and that things need to change. We have known this for many years. To do it biblically seems the right way to START. None of us thought that the elders would stand before the congregation and repent. We were not so upset by is it as some of you others, because we already know what was going to happen...we have seen this BS before.

Emotions run high when these things happen especially if you are newly out of the ministry. I so totally understand that. But Jeannie...no one has been deceived by Marr or the elders. We know what they are about.

"Your above post reflects your receiving deceptive words from self-serving men, Marr have deceived you Dave. And now you add the deceptive words to this forum with a superior spirit that you never possessed before on the board. And you ask why we won't talk to those wonderful elders?? You don't think you have been deceived?? Those wonderful elders have destroyed the reputations of my loved ones and friends! All because we did stand up for the truth and demanded accountability!"

Superior attitude? Jeannie...he was defending himself and has emotions like anyone else. We too over the years have been hurt by this place. You are not the only person whose family has been destroyed. Ask Dave. His family is in tatters because of Carl.

Jeannie we all know what has happened to you. We know you are angry, and you have every right to be. But there are a lot of avenues to address these people. Will Dave's discussions make any difference? Who knows? But trying it isn't a sin, Jeannie. It doesn't mean that anyone is deceived because Marr is talking to Dave. You give Marr far too much power if you think he is able to deceive any of us after all these years.

There is no need for you to go away,unless you are intent upon helping the elders enjoy watching us lose out cohesion. There is room enough for all here. Yes many are hurting, yes many are angry, yes many are confused. You do not need to agree with what Dave is doing by having conversations with Marr. I have disagreed, as you know with much of what has occurred and what people have said. But much has been accomplished and more yet can happen if we remain a unit and shore each other up.

If you are determined to take your ball and bat and go home in anger, no one can stop you. But it isn't going to help anyone for you to that than you think it will help for Dave to speak to Marr.

As for a superior attitude, I discern one in you from this last post on FN. Why? Because when I was first out, I had it too...we all do. We all think that no one else gets it, that no one else understands what crime has been perpetrated against you. Jeannie, please, think calmly for a minute. Try to understand that you are one voice, one effective voice, but that right now your emotions are freaked out because someone is talking to the man who helped ruin your family.

Dave has family still in the cult, Jeannie. He can only do what he can without alienating them further than they are already. Don't you imagine he wishes he could do more? Remember when you wanted to do more and couldn't?

We all have been marked and shunned for years, Jeannie. We understand the concept all too well. For you to "mark" us now isn't any help, nor is it necessary. I can only pray that you will take a breather, try to see the situation with an objective eyes and assist the efforts. The point about Dave talking to Marr, is one orthodox pastor attempting to talk to a pastor that is "out there" doctrinally and to explain a few things, and to learn a few things about where the elders are at. I have talked at length to Dave and see that he is not deceived by Marr or the elders, but he does understand better what their thinking is so he can perhaps point out their errors.

No need to answer the email or the post on FN, Jeannie. But please will you think about what I have said? I am in no way deceived by the ministry, haven't been for a long time...maybe I am not so far off base with my thinking. I do hope you will consider my words as from one friend to another, for that is the way they are offered to you.

Roberta

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-27-2004, 08:03 PM

My dear Maria

Disagreeing with Chris, Jeannie or you or anyone else, is not "beating each other up". I have targeted no one, simply stated my opinion as have you Chris, Jeannie and Dave, Jim etc.

The act of disagreeing is healthy. How we respond to it is what is important. The spirit has changed here on FN, I agree, but I see that it has changed for the better. Until this last misunderstanding about Dave's conversations with Marr, all was well. All of a sudden because some of us disagree with you Chris and Jeannie, it is now evil here?

That just isn't so, my friend. To suggest that those of us not directly on site are unaware of what is happening is ludicrous at best. Can't you see? This situation now in progress has happened over and over and over again through the years, same senario, perhaps a few new faces. I know you don't want to hear that. I know you all think that this situation now in progress is unique. In no way am I saying that your pain and outrage isn't real, isn't deep and isn't awful. It is...we know it is. We have felt it. We also have had marriages and families destroyed. We have given all and been shunned, marked, lied about misued and betrayed.

I am not sure why you think that we don't understand, but I assure you we know all too well what is happening. This is the same old senario that GGWO has been for all the years it has been in around. Rather than be comforted that we are here for you, we care about you and that after all these years that we have been away we returned to comfort and help, you reject us, because your pain is so much worse? I am sorry Maria, I find this sad...and very much cultic behaviour.

Also, just because we scrap about stuff here on FN does NOT make it evil or a bad place. Good heavens! All families snarl at each other from time to time...eventually it gets made up and all is better than ever. It is unrealistic to think that we won't get angry with each other, lash out at times and disagree. Bonnie calls it "magical thinking" to think otherwise. Don't you see that you are playing right into the elders hands here by declaring that we are all off and the "spirit has left"? The spirit has done no such thing.

We have also NOT lost focus. We are finally focused! If we were not making progress, feelings would no be so raw. We are of course making progress.

Also...remember that this is the hliday season. This is the time when old wounds hurt the most, when memories kick in and become painful once more and people are over tired, over wrought and emotions run high. This is NOT the time to make big declarations like "I am taking my ball and my bat and I am going home and you all suck".

What I am trying hard to say, is that disagreements are common in everyday life, and are very healthy in the long run. Magical thinking that we all should completely agree and we all should have the same conclusions about things isn't real. It isn't healthy, and it it is unrealistic.

I am sorry that you three, Jeannie, Chris and you especially are offended that we do not agree with you. But I will remind you of something...Louise, Dave, Jim, Bonnie etc and I have been in your shoes. We do know the pain you are suffering, we understand how it feels to be screwed over by people we loved and thought loved us, only to find out we were nothing to them. For you to assume we have not suffered is wrong, dismissive and cruel.

Did anyone consider how difficult is has been for some of us to be back here talking about this at all? Did you think that we have loved ones, friends etc that still are in GG and we too have had to watch our words carefully? Or are you all so caught up in your own pain that you see nothing else? We came to help, to offer all we can to the cause and now because we had the balls to disagree with you we are to be shunned, marked and belittled?

This isn't right and I think you know that, Maria. We are doing what we can to help those that are leaving, those that have left, and that includes you. How many hours has Bonnie spent on the phone with you because she cares, because she loves you? Do you really think she doesn't know what this kind of pain is? She does and you know she does. You know I do as well, and yet you agree with Chris that we can't possibly now what is happening in Baltimore?

Believe what you will. I know the pain, I know you are all ****ed off. but when the smoke clears and you think back upon how we have tried to help...remember to call Bonnie and apologize for thinking that she doesn't know what it is like to lose everything because of this damned cult. Remember those that lost their health, like me and could never sue to get compensation so I can live longer...remember all the hundreds over 4 decades who gave all theirt money, gave over their children, gave their trust, just to have it stomped on...

I am sorry you aren't the first, I am sorry if it is a problem for you all that you are not unique, I am sorry you think we are to be shunned because we are not in Baltimore.

Someone mentioned to me that you all sound "elitist". I didn't think so then, but now...well. I am beginning to wonder.

You are doing exactly what the elders want you to do...you have aided them with your attitudes against those of us who have tried to help. It is YOU who have been duped yet again. Well, no matter, for say what you will...I ain't goin' nowhere. I intend to stick it out no matter whow much crap comes against me from anyone.

Now I too am upset, so I am going to shut off this damned computer, meditate for awhile and go hug my family.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-27-2004, 08:11 PM

" such a big deal was supposed to come from the pulpit with the elders supposedly taking accountability for all the character assassinations done by GGWO leadership for 36 years....which they didn't."

I knew they never would repent, that they had no intention of repenting and they never will. That is something I have heard them "say " they were going to do before...it never ever happened, not in over 40 years.

I know the people in Baltimore had hopes in the so called declaration, and were sorely upset. But that is why I am pointing out that those of us who have heard this bull **** from Carl and his cronies for years, already expected what actually happened.

We do understand your pain, we have already suffered it. Can you see that? We do know, and we care that you all are in pain. But please do not dismiss ours because it isn't happening in Baltimore.

lee (lee)

12-27-2004, 08:59 PM

I cannot side with Dave about what happened as being just a church split. That, if I read his words correctly is bending over so much that he's seeing himself on the other side. It's especially ludicrous in light of many calling the ministry a cult and then siding with him. It's also not a complete picture in light of past history and present occurences that show that much more has happened. I understand that those doing battle on the front lines can feel quite insulted at his position. However, I do appreciate his willingness to put countless hours of work into making attempts to speak to leaders in Balt as well as branch pastors.....really, anyone that would talk to him. He has been tenacious and tender in his work. I know he is tired and wants to return to his work as pastor and to his very patient family.

I have to say that the pain those are experiencing right now in Balt is more intense than mine right now. I'd be in very bad shape if I were still in the same place I was when we were in the midst of our own 'unique' experience of having tasted of the evil that comes spewing out of those in leadership. I do not take what is happening to those of you right now lightly. I respect the intensity of the battle and resulting pain. I don't know it as you do because I am not there right now. Those of us who were once there and are now finding a medium in which to speak are finding another type of healing and clarity to what our experience was. I just hope you will not discount what happened to us as being different in anyway, or less in intensity, because it wasn't.

I've recently had a personal encounter with a faithful loyal pastor from GGWO and should not have been surprised at the amount of and intensity of evil that spewed so easily from him. If I lived with that daily, I think I would succumb to its power by either bending over in pain or coming out fighting with all the energy I could muster or more likely, return evil for evil, which is truly a scary place. I know you are on the front lines. We are truly with you. What can we do?

I think that there has to be a certain amount of rejoicing from the loyalists to see us fight. Lets show them that we can fight but not be divided.

I also think that perhaps there is some 'face saving' techniques being employed. That is something that always gets my dander up! I'd never make it as a diplomat. It's probably was I wasn't a good pastor's wife.

lee (lee)

12-27-2004, 09:02 PM

....among many other reasons

dave_drago (dave_drago)

12-27-2004, 09:06 PM

Is anyone home? I did not say that what happened was just a church split. HELLO????? I said it is JUST A SYMPTOM of a much deeper problem. HELLO???? ARE YOU READING SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAN WHAT I WROTE?

Lee:
"I cannot side with Dave about what happened as being just a church split. That, if I read his words correctly is bending over so much that he's seeing himself on the other side. It's especially ludicrous in light of many calling the ministry a cult and then siding with him."

What I actually stated (not to mention all my other posts)
"The whole Lang affair from start to finish is normal GGWO behavior. I never implied, inferred or oversimplified that Paul is the problem at Baltimore. His actions and the resulting church split are a symptom of the much deeper rooted doctrinal errors. And, in my opinion, if you don’t think that “Paul’s church” is a split you are not deceived you are ignorant. The defense of the guilty is also normal fruit of the GGWO doctrinal error of “the nanner- nanner I repented you cannot touch me theology”…this goes all the way back to Maine when the deacons of the Baptist church tried to confront and correct Carl. It has born fruit in his son. I believe the elders rolled over for or encouraged Paul (depending on who you talk to) when he wanted to intervene for his father. And, they distanced themselves from him when the intervention backfired…aaah, the politics of religion. I stick to my analysis that he loved his dad. However, I also believe he seized the opportunity to take his ‘rightful place’ in the ministry. Regardless of my opinion, the actions of Paul and the actions of Carl and the actions of the elders are the result of doctrinal error and a prideful attitude across the spectrum."

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

12-27-2004, 09:13 PM

(Attempting Homer Simpson impression) Doh!

lee (lee)

12-27-2004, 09:16 PM

Dave, I was referring to your first post. The one that said....'church splits are never easy'....it sounded just too glossy for me. Sorry, I respect your rights to your opinion but I disagree....its way more than a church split. I think you know that but why you chose those words, I don't know. I think it was infamatory....perhaps not at all intentional. Especially in light of many of us experiencing church splits and knowing how common they are. I happen to belong to the group that thinks this is far more than human beings disagreeing. Humans disagreeing is wht happens here......not there!
Thats my opinion. I love your comment on having an opinion is like having 2 armpits....they both stink, well, I'm going to put that in my vault and hope that I get to use it sometime.
Another reason I was a lousy pastor's wife! Love those one liners!
Even when I was fighting way way in the beginning with Maria, I had to love her lines.....she can really work them!

Dave, I have no comment on the paragraph you just posted.....actually, I quite agree!

lee (lee)

12-27-2004, 09:18 PM

rolling eyes, Lisa Simpson style...

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-27-2004, 09:21 PM

Lee, I think if you reread Dave's post he means that the "split" is merely the outward action of the deeper corruption ongoing in Baltimore.

I see what he means. The outward action of Paul leaving and starting another church is small potatoes and not the real essense of the problem. Of course because of it the affections and loyalties of the congregation have "been split" and it cause to be concerned. BUT, like Dave and most all of us, we see that it is obvious the problems that are inherent are deeper and more insidious.

I think Dave is rather frustrated that his words are not understood...can't blame him. But a "church split" is not the problem, it is one result of the rot at the core.

BTW, what is a good "pastor's wife" supposed to be anyway? *LOL* You can bet your butt I'd never have been a good GGWO pastor's wife *LOL*

lee (lee)

12-27-2004, 09:38 PM

I think I understand DAve's words alright.....I think its also what 'spin' the folks in GGWO would like to use to describe what happened. That way, they come off looking like any other church, and I don't believe they are like any other church. I think it minimizes the effect it has on people. It keeps them more in the mainstream. It takes the heat off them (the elders) It sounds sleazy to me. Of course I understand that Paul 'split' from his Dad. Really, I do!

Churches have a way of writing unspoken but very real 'rules' by which people are expected to live. I could never, and I tried real hard, to be a lovely, gracious pastors wife that would teach sunday school and organize women's events and pray for everyone all the time and always always win souls and be up to date on bible reading, but not too scholarly ( actually I guess I've done that!),ready to serve 24/7....yadda yadda yadda.....just couldn't do it. I guess if I had a pretty face and a silent mouth I would've been okay. Its my general feeling that its a role defined by others and the wife is expected to fulfill......at least that was my experience. Sorry, didn't mean to make this 'all about me'. I'm really mucho happier than ever!

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-27-2004, 09:59 PM

"I think its also what 'spin' the folks in GGWO would like to use to describe what happened."

You really think the GGWO goons want people to think the split thing is a SMALL symptom of a huge corruption that lies underneath the surface?????

THAT is what Dave said, and it doesn't sound anything like a spin to me.

lee (lee)

12-27-2004, 10:17 PM

After reading Dave's post from 2:15 am on 25th Dec. point #3. and reading Jeannies and others posts this is the conclusion I've drawn. This is what I believe Jeannie is saying the elders in Balt are telling people. It's the best spin they can put on this mess. It makes them (Balt dissenters)feel put down and minimized.

No, I don't think the GGWO goons want people to think its just a small symptom of huge corruption. I think they want to pass it off as simply as they can. They need to 'save face'. They need to appear normal. They are covering for CHS. They are avoiding telling the truth. If they can say they just went through a very trying church split, then they save themselves.

Do you think they will not have some kind of 'spin'? I think you know they will, they always have, and they will have to this time as well.

free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)

12-27-2004, 10:23 PM

Please, PLEASE don't fall apart now! I have been quietly watching this board for months and was thrilled at the progress the elder's UN-declaration represented! Now these same "elders" can laugh in the face of FACTNet with derision and scorn as they witness this "house divided." I beg you in the name of God, do not lose your focus over petty concerns and semantics folks! Please keep up the good fight because many ARE listening and we look to you all as a beacon of hope during this dark transition. May we all "put off that which is behind us and press on toward the mark [Jesus].

FTBO

dave_drago (dave_drago)

12-27-2004, 10:33 PM

We all need to learn how to communicate more clearly and listen more attentively and do not magnify a disagreement as a divide. It is ok to disagree...as long as we are not disagreeable. I should have been more thorough in my 12/25/04 post. Again, feel free to disagree but clarify your disagreements without labeling others. We need to avoid this fear of disagreement and the labeling of those we do not understand.

free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)

12-27-2004, 10:36 PM

Thank you Pastor Drago.

FTBO

lee (lee)

12-27-2004, 10:49 PM

I'm distressed thinking that Jeannie has left FN with feeling so troubled. That doesn't rest easy with me. Some of us may feel it time to move on, but I hope it isn't in anger, hurt or misunderstanding.

I do think if there's no conclusion to what Jeannie, Chris and Maria have written here, then that shows me something I should be concerned about.

Dave, I really think that the words 'church split' were first used by those in Baltimore. I don't think people are stupid enough to buy that either. I do think people are dull of spirit and afraid to think, say or do anything that is different from what their pastor says. If he says its a church split then, they'll say it and it will all be put to rest and it'll be business as usual.

I think I'll contact Jeannie off line and see if I change my mind.

What labeling and what fear of disagreement?

aurora (aurora)

12-27-2004, 11:02 PM

Wow. What an interesting thread this has been!

I appreciate so much what you have said here, Jeannie. And you especially, Lee. That long term persective is what I long to hear about but my experience as a recent ex-er is reflected so much in Jeannie's posts.

Some who have left this year have totally cut off from everyone still in, even very close friends. That is what I have decided I must do and am now in the midst of. The ones I am cutting off from don't understand why I must. They think I am marking them. I tell them about all the many evil things that they certainly see and know about but have spent a lifetime dismissing because "we don't touch God's annointed". I am then considered to be decieved.

They are members of a cult as I was for over 20 years. We cannot walk together. They condone the evil- perpetrated by all the indoctrinated "pastors"- by their silence and passivity...I must go on- away from them all. (I know it must be much more complicated for ones like Jeannie who, I think, has actual family members in still.)

We can't fix this evil thing, this cult called GG or TBS. Am I being defeatist? It is a tangled ball of yarn that the devil just rolls up tighter as we attempt to take it apart.

It hurts that it was founded on lies. I am enraged that I was such a sucker.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-27-2004, 11:17 PM

I have explained myself and what I think until I am blue n the face and STILL it is is a problem. *LOL*

Lee: The term "church split" was used by Dave and I differently than the way you are referring. Of course there is a "split". These situations always cause a split between factions in the congregation. NO ONE, I repeat no one actually thinks that this is the current problem in its entirety. The elders are saying that to deflect heat from their mismanagement and corruption that lays at the basis of the rotteness in the church as a whole. I hope this clears up this odd argument. Lee...I hope hope you se noe that I am agreeing with you.

Maria, I confess, I haven't a clue about what you're saying about nasty posts. Sorry I just don't see it. I see adults actually conversing about important issues, agreeing, disagreeing, loudly but with respect. Things are not worse here at FN, they are better than ever. I don't don't see it the way you do...show me.

As far as Jeannie leaving the board. I have spoken to her today and am convinced that she is involved in an important and necessary project to help those disenfranchised and God bless her. Her problem with the elders is every bit as real and painful as our was with the church years ago, and she needs space, time, counsel and prayer to heal. Her efforts for all of us old and new have been sincere and will continue to be I am sure. A break from the conversation is something we all need at times. We'll be hearing from her again I am sure.

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on December 27, 2004)

free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)

12-28-2004, 12:38 AM

Aurora,

My feelings EXACTLY! Though this may not bring you necessary comfort I would like to reassure you that you're not alone in your angst and anger!
God bless you and keep looking up...He loves you so and has delivered you from the spiritual rape of deception and lies found in the leadership of Greater Grace.

Peace to you little lamb,

FTBO

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

12-28-2004, 02:15 AM

AND...
Carl Stevens does not fulfill the requirements of 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, 1 Pet. 5 etc. to take on the role of pastor or elder. He hasn't for many years.

Neither does Paul.

Particularly, neither of them are "apt to teach" because they have no foundation to do so.

There is the root problem of bad doctrine and sin. There is the symptom of a church split and factions.

over_it (over_it)

12-28-2004, 04:58 AM

Jim
If you are so right about that, then I wonder why "Finished Work Ministries" is growing, and Paul Stevens is the Pastor??? Who the hell are you to say who is apt to teach??

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-28-2004, 05:42 AM

He is quoting the scripture, scripture accepted by GGWO, that decides who is "apt to teach":1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, 1 Pet. 5 etc.

Just because the church is growing is no indicator that it is healthy. many unhealthy churches grow very quickly indeed. Growth is not a definitive indicator of health.

Every single pastor in the GGWO or has been trained exclusively by GGWO is not "apt to teach" according to the scripture quoted by Jim.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-28-2004, 05:54 AM

Maria

You were just unaware of the definition of a split is all. Let me say that I admire your willingness to learn and grow in this very upsetting situation. To strive always to be honest with yourself about the facts as they present themselves is very healthy, extremely difficult when you are recovering from cult indoctrination, but always the best avenue to growth.

Keep growing and seeking the whole truth and you'll recover with a few scars but with true abundance of grace.

free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)

12-28-2004, 06:01 AM

over_it,

I must agree with RJ, numbers do not indicate the "health" of a church. For example, just look at "homebase." It's considered, or was considered, a Mega church due to its large numbers BUT it is anything but healthy! You must realize the majority of people making their exit from "homebase" will be drawn to their comfort zone unless they have an opportunity to "debrief" and "process" WHY they got into a cult in the first place [Paul Stevens included]Even if their comfort zone is dysfunctional or healthy, the dear deceived folks in Greater Grace have been spoon fed a life style and are more than likely very afraid so Paul's "church" must seem very appealing. Please don't justify this situation based upon numbers because there are MANY GGWO refugee's who are frightened, confused and looking for GGWO, be it on a subconscious level.

FTBO

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

12-28-2004, 02:37 PM

"Jim
If you are so right about that, then I wonder why "Finished Work Ministries" is growing, and Paul Stevens is the Pastor??? Who the hell are you to say who is apt to teach??"

FW ministries is growing? Really? Apart from the above comments, I would ask exactly how it is growing. Is it by hundreds of new conversions? Or is it MAINLY by other disgruntled EX-GGWO parishioners wanting the same schtick only without a bombastic and incoherent Carl? Isn't it interesting that "Finished Work" is in the title of the "ministry?" Same ol' same 'ol. He learned everything he knows from his Dad he just thinks he can do better! How is the doctrine going to be any different? Church polity? I've heard Paul on Grace Hour and the man is NOT an expositor of Scripture--NOT apt to teach.

Paul is not above reproach.

Paul has not demonstrated that he is accountable.

He was able with a straight face to teach "relationship" classes while he was in the middle of an affair with a married woman--he has not so much as taken a breath since that time.

He has given the enemies of Christ the opportunity to blaspheme.

Who am I? I am somebody who A) Knows s--- from Shinola and B) Have been around enough REAL Bible expositors in the past twenty years to know Paul and Carl aren't--that is who the hell I am.

bells_joy (bells_joy)

12-28-2004, 02:53 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)

12-28-2004, 05:36 PM

Oh isn't free will a wonderful and terrible gift?!
As much as we desire to see GGer's delivered from this cult in EVERYWAY they still must see their own need and God is the only One who can reveal said.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif
FTBO

dave_drago (dave_drago)

12-28-2004, 05:49 PM

Lee,

You asked:
"What labeling and what fear of disagreement?"

Rer-read the posts, deceived, infected with evil.,etc...I know this will prolong the discussion and many will sigh. But,maybe we need to heal a little more from old teachings.

My thoughts:

1. When we dehumanize another person with the label of deceived or worse claim they are the embodiment of evil, we no longer see them as a fellow human being. When this happens there is no room for negotiation. People are complicated. We are sinful, selfish and self- defensive. We also don't like to see things from a different viewpoint and challenge our paradigm.

2. I have often wondered if we give too much credit to the devil when it is just the total depravity of man. Sure he (Satan) tempts us, just like he did our mother and father of the human race. But, when they put on the fig leaves and made their lies and excuses to God, Satan had already done his job, he was out of the picture.

3. Regardless, when we strongly label and polarize by taking sides, I believe it is due in part to the fear of disagreement because disagreement is a painful process. GGWO taught us to avoid all disagreements as evil. It goes against unity, etc. It is deeply embedded into the DNA of the church family. However,healthy church families can disagree without all the labels, etc. They do not rush to say "deceived, naive, evil", etc. This dehumanizes the person(s) and puts them on the defensive. We need to listen carefully and speak more clearly. This is hard on a computer board.

For instance,

"I discerned real evil from the leaders in their damage control behavior and it was infecting with another spirit. You decided to enter into conversation with the very spirit that I discerned was evil. Your Christmas Eve post was the result. Your above post reflects your receiving deceptive words from self-serving men, Marr have deceived you Dave. And now you add the deceptive words to this forum with a superior spirit that you never possessed before on the board."

"Those of us in the Baltimore area have much better insight into the situation here -- first hand. Everyone else is receiving second hand information only. Or you are having conversations with elders and pastors who you do not know well, if at all...you have not watched their lives the way we have. You can be easily deceived and misled by them."

4. My point is that there is no room for negotiation in those statements. I engaged and elder. I am trying to see where they are coming from. They are sinful, complicated, fragile human beings like me. If I dehumanize them, then how can I negotiate with them? If I disagree with someone on this board and say they are infected with evil, how can I understand them? GGWO drilled polarizing statements and fear of disagreeing into our psyche. There is no room to seek understanding before being understood when we do this. I have nothing against Jeannie or Chris or Maria, etc. I just try to understand what they are saying. I will not label them.

5. I know that people were defamed, maligned, marked and shunned by the leadership. I do not minimize that or the pain it causes. NOT AT ALL. But I also know when we label and dehumanize we cannot negotiate. This is why I say an outside organization must come in and help them. The system, because of human pride and doctrinal error has put men in a place where they are not accountable. Bad doctrine always produces bad behavior. And, we enabled that behavior because our desire to serve God was used for a man's ambitious ego. His sin is greater because he used and manipulated scripure and our desire to serve God. God will and is judging that.

6. Yes, the elders were engaged. And, many people were maligned and marked for their courageous efforts. Will GGWO change? The patterns of behavior say no. However, in the Sovereignity of God, the old man is not what he used to be. Lewis is out the door. The old guard is aging. Perhaps, there will be a regime change and some small steps will be made. I DO NOT KNOW. BUT I HOPE SO. Is this deception on my part? You decide.

7. Now, the declaration...What was it? In baseball terms somewhere between a hit batsman, a walk or an infield single. Yet, it gives me a small ray of hope, because of the current events. They cannot ignore their problems. We are not going away. They must face change or continue to suffer for their self-inflicted wounds.

8. Will they? Only time will tell. Only time will tell. Only time will tell.

In His Love Alone,
Dave

(Message edited by Dave Drago on December 28, 2004)

kathleen (kathleen)

12-28-2004, 06:47 PM

The One With Wild Hair

His name was Paul. He had wild hair, wore a tee-shirt with holes in it, jeans, and no shoes. This was literally his wardrobe for his entire four years of college. He was brilliant, rather esoteric, and very bright. He became a Christian while attending college.

Across the street from the campus was a well dressed, very conservative church. They wanted to develop a ministry to the students, but were not sure how to go about it.

One day Paul decided to visit the church. He walked in with no shoes, dirty jeans, his tee-shirt with holes, and his wild hair flying everywhere. The service had already started so Paul started walking down the aisle looking for a seat. The church was completely packed and he couldn't find a seat. As we walked to the middle of the church people were really looking uncomfortable, but no one said anything. Paul got closer and closer to the pulpit when he realized there were no seats available. He looked around and squatted down in the middle of the carpet a few feet in front of the pulpit.

Although perfectly acceptable behavior at a college fellowship, trust me, this had never happened in this church before! By now the people were really uptight, and tension in the air was thick. About this time, the minister realizes that from way at the back of the church, a deacon is slowly making his way toward Paul.

Now the deacon is in his eighties with silver-gray hair, and a three-piece suit was by all appearance a godly man who was very elegant, dignified and courtly. He walked with a cane and he started walking toward this boy everyone was saying to themselves you can't blame him for what he's going to do. How can you expect a man of his age and of his background to understand some college kid on the floor?

It took a very long time for the man to reach the boy. The church was utterly silent except for the clicking of the man's cane. All eyes were focused on the stately man with the cane. If a pin had dropped it would have echoed to heaven!

The minister along with everyone else was silent until the deacon completed what he had to do. As the man reaches Paul on the floor he drops his cane. With great difficulty he lowers himself to the floor and sits down next to the young man so he won't be alone.

Everyone choked up with emotion. When the minister regained control, he said, "What I'm about to preach, you will probably never remember. What you have just seen, you will never forget."

Prayer: Heavenly Father thank you for churches that are hospitals and not country clubs. In the name of Your Son our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen!

II Timothy 2
Thou therefore, my son, be stong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

II Timothy 3
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

arguendo (arguendo)

12-28-2004, 07:41 PM

Re: Marr

Lawyers, like wild animals, make terrible pets. Just because they sit in your lap and lick your hand doesn't mean they aren't thinking, "Tastes like chicken."

anon_brief (anon_brief)

12-28-2004, 07:44 PM

Exactly.

washburndunc (washburndunc)

12-28-2004, 09:38 PM

It's only been a few days since I found this cite.

I've not been part of TBS/GG physically since the mid '90s and mentally a while before that.

As I've been reading here I've been saddened: sure by the hurt caused by ungodly actions but also by the hatred and anger.

I agree with Free that only so much blame can be directed away from us. At some point we must take responsibilities for our own choices. (Please show me in the Bible where a person in hell will be able to point a finger at anyone.)

In the Garden of Eaden God confronted all three with they're responsibilities for sin and dealt with them individually.

My prayer is that we will truly understand that 'I have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God' and that the Blood of Christ has freed me to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit so that each day I can become more and more like Jesus.

Confrontation is needed but only according to Gal 6:1 and the last coulple of verses in James 5.

As for the following quote by rffernalld 'THIS is the crux of the problem. ALL of the pretend pastors who have been taught by Carl, ordained by Carl and who live the lies Carl taught them are frauds. That is not to say they were not probably called to be pastors, for only God knows that...but if any man was a graduate of the bible schools Stevens has founded, he was taught false doctrine and never was truly an acceptable pastor.': maybe you don't want to consider this posting at all because I was ordained by TBS in 1980 so I probalby don't know anything about God and what the Bible means.

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-29-2004, 01:31 AM

Kathleen, thanks for the story.
Dave Drago, I don't believe I know you, but I thoroughly agree with all you have tried to say here.
Like Dave, I'm going to cause some wild hairs to fly here...
I do not know what the scholars call a "cult", but I tend to agree with "Martin's Report", that GG/TBS is not a cult, however they do have "cultish teaching". I do not believe this makes them a cult, just like when I fail, it doesn't mean I am fallen and unsaved. It just means I am a sinner saved by grace, and a blooming idiot. Coming from a catholic background, I was not taught or encouraged to read or study the Word of God, nor taught the importance of same. GG/TBS with all its problems, taught Mike and I this "most important of teachings"... Do they have a lot of crazy teachings... absolutely... however we were all taught to study to show ourselves approved. If we chose (and we all certainly did... many times over) to not believe the Word, but to believe a "man's exception to the Word", i.e. "Do not judge or malign, but rather love unceasingly.. however, let me share with you what so and so did wrong"
Back in 1989 or so, Pastor Carl Stevens told me that he had been convicted of "gossiping and maligning folks, rather than loving them". I was kind of shocked that he realized it, and hoped things would change. That still remains between him and the Lord, if it has or not. The important thing is that we are Holy Spirit filled, and Dave, I believe you are being led of God. Seven times seventy is alot of times a day. When the disciples were upset at other people saying they were of God, the Lord pretty much said you mind your lives and let them mind theirs... Also said this to Peter with regard to John on the beach after the resurrection... I believe we reap what we sow, even as Christians. Good job, Dave... Kathleen's story so characterizes the Lord God's love... brushing off our feet is probably the most deadly thing we can do against those who have hurt us. Are they a cult... perhaps, but I don't think so. I think they are just messed up human beings like the rest of us, and only by loving them and fellowshipping with them will we have a "hope" to make the Word of God come alive in many areas of their lives.

free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)

12-29-2004, 01:44 AM

With all due respect I prefer the Berean's approach! Grace is no excuse to throw away our critical thinking skills and rebuke and exhort, even church leaders, when they continually engage in overt sin!

FTBO

free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)

12-29-2004, 01:47 AM

We must rebuke and exhort church leaders when they are continually engaging in overt sin without TRUE repentance!
FTBO

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-29-2004, 01:50 AM

Amen, washburndunc... Mike was ordained I think in 80 too or soon after... I love what you said... a vote to you.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-29-2004, 04:03 AM

I am going to repeat this GGWO is a destructive mind control cult.

Defining a Cult

There are 3 factors to defining a cult.

1. The origin of the group and role of the leader.

This person is typically the founder. He is at the top of the structure. The core of the decision making is his alone. These leaders typically have the following characteristics:
A. Cult leaders are self-appointed, persuasive persons who claim to have a special mission in life or to have special knowledge.
B. Cult leaders tend to be determined and domineering and are often described as charismatic.
C. Cult leaders center veneration (pastor worship) on themselves.

2. The power structure, or relationship between the leader (or leaders) and the followers.

Cults are authoritarian in structure. The leader may delegate some power to a few subordinates to aid in seeing that members adhere to his wishes and rules.
Cults appear to be innovative and exclusive. Cult leaders claim to be offering something new and something that will change all the problems of ones life and the world. Almost all cults make the claim that their members are “chosen”, “select”, or “special”, those who are not members are considered lesser beings.
Cults tend to have a double set of ethics. Members are encouraged to be open and honest confess all to the leaders. At the same time, members are taught that it is all right to deceive and manipulate nonmembers. (Lie to the devil). The overriding philosophy in cults, however is that the ends justify the means.

3. The use of a coordinated program of persuasion (which is called thought reform, or brain washing as it is commonly known.)
Cults tend to be totalistic, or all encompassing, in controlling their members’ behavior and ideologically totalistic, exhibiting zealotry and extremism in their worldview.
Cults expect members to devote increasing time, energy, and money or other resources to the professed goals of the group, stating or implying that a total commitment is required to reach some state of enlightenment.
Cults tend to require members to undergo a major disruption or change in life-style.
Cults promote black -and -white thinking, an all- or- nothing point of view.

Not all cults are alike. There are cults that are live in and live out. They vary in levels of membership and degrees of involvement. For example members on the edges of a group are not privy to the costs, contents, and obligations of the inner group members and have little knowledge of the real purpose of the group and the amount of power wielded by the leader. Even within the same cult, rules, restrictions and requirements may change. This may happen year to year and from location to location depending upon outside pressures, local leadership, and whatever the leader desires.

In a live in cult every detail of ones life is scrutinized. There is a dress code, food restrictions, and relationships are governed. Members live together at the headquarters or at a specified location around the country or overseas. They often work for cult owned companies.

In a live out cult the devotees appear to remain active in quite a few aspects of the outside world. They earn a living, own homes, have families, etc. But for all practical purposes these individuals also live under the rules governing their personal life as the people with whom they associate with, how they spend their money, the way they raise their children, where they live, etc.

http://www.carm.org/cults.htm (copied and pasted from this link)

Cults!

Cults are everywhere. Some are mainstream and widely accepted. Others are isolationist and hide from examination at great expense. They are growing and flourishing. Some cause great suffering while others appear very helpful and beneficial. Which ever group it is, the ultimate end is their destruction when the Lord returns to claim His own.

What is a cult?

Generally, it is a group that is unorthodox, esoteric, and has a devotion to a person, object, or a set of new ideas.
New Teaching - has a new theology and doctrine.
Only True Teaching - often considers traditional religious systems to be apostate and it alone possess the complete truth.
Strong Leadership - often an individual or small but powerful leadership group holds control of the group’s teachings and practices.
Asset Acquirement - often requires tithing and/or property transfer to the religious system.
Isolationist - to facilitate control over the members physically, intellectually, financially, and emotionally.
Controlling - exercises control over the members. Sometimes this is through fear, threatening lose of salvation if you leave the group. Sometimes through indoctrination.
Indoctrination - possesses methods to reinforce the cult’s beliefs and standards where opposing views are ridiculed and often misrepresented.
Apocalyptic - to give the members a future focus and philosophical purpose in avoiding the apocalypse or being delivered through it.
Experience - various practices including meditation, repetition of words and/or phrases, and ‘spiritual’ enlightenment with God are used as confirmation of their truth.
Depravation - sleep and food deprivation which weakens the will of the subject.
This is uncommon, though practiced by more severe cults.

Persecution - predictions of being persecuted and often combined with claiming any opposing views demonstrated against them as a form of persecution.
Many have a non-verifiable belief systems.
For example, they would teach something that cannot be verified. A space ship behind Hale-Bop comet Or, that God, an alien, or angel appeared to the leader and gave him a revelation The members are seeded angels from another world, etc.
Often, the philosophy makes sense only if you adopt the full set of values and definitions that it teaches. With this kind of belief, truth becomes unverifiable, internalized, and easily manipulated through the philosophical systems of its inventor.

The Leader of a Cult Often charismatic who is considered very special for varying reasons: The leader has received special revelation from God.
The leader claims to be the incarnation of a deity, angel, or special messenger.
The leader claims to be appointed by God for a mission
The leader claims to have special abilities
The leader is often above reproach and is not to be denied or contradicted.

Cult ethos Usually seek to do good works, otherwise no one would join them.
They are usually moral and possess a good standard of ethical teaching.
Many times the Bible is used or additional "scriptures" are penned.
The Bible, when used, is always distorted with private interpretations.
Many Cults recruit Jesus as one of their own and redefine him accordingly
Cult groups vary greatly. From the ascetic to the promiscuous.
From esoteric knowledge to very simple teachings.
From the rich and power to the poor and weak.

Who is vulnerable to joining a cult? Everyone is vulnerable.
Rich, poor, educated, non-educated, old, young, previously religious, atheistic, etc.
General Profile of cult member (some or all of the following)
Disenchanted with conventional religious establishments.
Intellectually confused over religious and/or philosophical issues
Sometimes disenchanted with society as a whole. Has a need for encouragement and support. Emotionally needful. Needs a sense of purpose. Financially needful.

Recruitment techniques
They find a need and fill it. One of the ways they do this is called
"Love Bombing" - Constant positive affection in word and deed.
Sometimes there is a lot of physical contact like hugging, pats on the back, and touching. Cult group members will lend emotional support to someone in need.
Help them in various ways...whatever is needed.
The person then becomes indebted to the cult.
Compliment them, reassure them, and make them the center of attention.
Many Cults use the influence of the Bible and/or mention Jesus as being one of their own; thereby adding validity to their system.
Scripture twisting
Those that use the Bible take verses out of context
Then mix their misinterpreted verses with their aberrant philosophy.
Gradualism, Slow altering of thinking processes and belief system through repeated teaching.
People usually accept cult doctrines one point at a time.
New beliefs are reinforced by other cult members.

Why would someone join?
The cult satisfies various needs:
Psychological - Someone could have a weak personality, easily lead.
Emotional - Someone could have recently suffered an emotional trauma
Intellectual - Someone has questions that this group answers.
The cult gives them approval, acceptance, purpose, and a sense of belonging.
The cult is appealing for some reason. It could be . . .
Moral rigidity and purity
Financial security
Promises of exaltation, redemption, higher consciousness, or a host of other rewards.

How are they kept in the cult?
Dependence
People often want to stay because the cult meets their psychological, intellectual, and spiritual needs.
Isolation
Outside contacts are reduced and more and more of the life of the member is built around the cult.
It then becomes very easy to control and shape the member.
Cognitive Reconstruction (Brainwashing):
Once the person is indoctrinated, their thinking processes are reconstructed to be consistent with the cult and to be submissive to its leaders.
This facilitates control by the cult leader(s).
Substitution
The Cult and cult leaders often take the place of mother, father, priest, teacher, and healer.
Often the member takes on the characteristics of a dependent child seeking to win the approval of the leader and or group.
Indebtedness
The member becomes indebted to the group emotionally, financially, etc.
Guilt
The person is told that to leave is to betray the leader, God, the group, etc.
The person is told that leave would mean to reject the love and help the group has given.
Threat, Threat of destruction by God for turning from the truth.
Sometimes physical threat is used, though not often.
Threat of missing the apocalypse, or being judged on judgment day, etc.

How do you get them out?
The best thing is to try not to let them get trapped in the first place.

If you are a Christian, then pray. But, to get a person out of a cult takes
Time, energy, and support. Teach them the truth.
Give them a true replacement for their aberrant belief system
Show the cult group's philosophic inconsistencies
Study the group and learn its history seeking clues and information.
Try and get them physically away from the cult group.
Give them the support they need emotionally.
Alleviate the threat that if they leave the group they are doomed or in danger.
Generally, don't attack the leader of the group...that comes later.
Converts often feel a loyalty and respect for the founder of the group.
Confront them when needed.
Hopefully, this basic outline will give you information to see how Cults work and how to avoid them. If you have someone who is lost in a cult, you need to pray and ask the Lord to remove them and give you the insight and tools needed. It can be a long and arduous task and very often ends in failure. This is not an easy ministry.

Mind control, is actually about influence. It’s about the ability of certain individuals to cause us to change our beliefs, attitudes, and even our behavior. Various processes influence us every day of our lives through advertising, the media, in schools, even the military through basic training. All forms of influence are not the same however. For the purpose of this essay we will concentrate on how mind control in a cult can and does influence people.

What mind control in a cult does is create a state of consciousness similar to someone under hypnosis. You may say “ I was not hypnotized.” Well, contrary to what you may say or believe hypnosis is nothing more than a state of FOCUSED attention. A person in an environment where all attention is focused on the groups’ beliefs and behaviors and where there is no conflicting message, and no distractions can easily attain that degree of concentration. Because of this “focused attention” learning occurs more rapidly and indoctrination takes place. This is how individuals are Mind controlled or influenced to take on the behavior and then the beliefs of the group.

In other words the process works first on an emotional and a behavioral level. Bypassing your critical thinking. It is very subtle and friendly. You don’t even recognize the power it holds. The need for love and approval, from God is played upon by the members and leads to psychological and behavioral identification with the group. Over time, the individual’s beliefs develop into what the group believes or tells you to believe. This is more through the REPRESSION of the intellect than the changing of the intellect. REPRESSION is the major key here.

Because of all the subtleties Mind Control is harder to recognize when it happens simply because of our egos. We don’t want to admit to the fact that we have been lied and manipulated. With our critical thinking system working incorrectly we were lulled into group belief practices and into things we never would have done or thought to do. Once part of the group, individual thinking is dangerous and the threat that God does not or will not love you is used. Individuality is not allowed to exist. Therefore changed in any form causes fear of rejection and the possibility of being not only cut off from God, but also from the group is constantly there. The body concept is in place. This is a way to imprison you. You are surrounded then by lies from within and lies from without. You are living within by layers and layers of lies. One thin layer of lie after another until you can no longer see the truth. That is why it is so hard to detect because the layers are thin and there are so many. Lie upon lie until you have so many, you no longer know what the truth really is.

Some of you may not agree about the ministry being a cult. That is your choice. I understand why you think that that way. Others of you may be teetering on the edge and are not quite sure what to believe. To you I say pray, read, and test the Spirit. Do your own research. Read what they say about cults and see if any or how much pertains to the group you are now in. Then decide for yourself. Those of you who believe you have been in a cult and may need some affirmation, my suggestion is to read for yourself what the guidelines are and see how many pertain to that particular group.

http://s4.invisionfree.com/Discuss_GGWO/index.php?s=1ffcbb6dac77ad30537877a4b915d160&showf orum=33

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-29-2004, 04:24 AM

"As for the following quote by rffernalld 'THIS is the crux of the problem. ALL of the pretend pastors who have been taught by Carl, ordained by Carl and who live the lies Carl taught them are frauds. That is not to say they were not probably called to be pastors, for only God knows that...but if any man was a graduate of the bible schools Stevens has founded, he was taught false doctrine and never was truly an acceptable pastor.': maybe you don't want to consider this posting at all because I was ordained by TBS in 1980 so I probalby don't know anything about God and what the Bible means."

I did not say you do not know what the Bible means. I said and mean that anyone who was ordained educated, trained, and ordained by TBS recieved false doctrines and false teachings from an unschooled preacher and from a non accredited school. Unless you have been properly educated and ordained by an orthodox seminary, and have diaffiliated from GGWO completely, you are NOT a true pastor.

You say you were ordained in 1980. Are you still affiliated with GGWO/Carl? Have you been re-educated and left behind the false and dangerous doctrines that you learned at TBS/SSB? Are you newly ordained by an orthodox denomination?

I learned the same false doctrines you did in the 80's, and I have had to expunge them from my theological thinking, have you?

These are important questions, and I do hope you are free from the disgusting false doctrines and lies from SSB.

washburndunc (washburndunc)

12-29-2004, 12:39 PM

Thank you, bjerwin, for your posting of 7:31 and for you kind comments about my posting. I know your husband (and probably you) although you guys may not know me. I ended up in Springfield.

As for rjfernalld's last posting for me, I'll let God be the judge of what I am. I can't recall reading in the Bible the same requirements for being a pastor as you set down: 'Unless you have been properly educated and ordained by an orthodox seminary, and have diaffiliated from GGWO completely, you are NOT a true pastor.'

I'll let God deal with what I heard that was not from Him, but I know that there were some wonderful things I heard while listening. I've learned over the years of teaching that hearers hear what they want and sometimes they even hear what God is saying in spite of me. The first is dangerous. The Bereans first listened then studied (I'm sure they had studied beforehand); they (the Bereans) illustrate the point in my first posting that we have a responsibility for ourselves.

As far as GGWO and Carl Stevens, I'm reminded of Romans 14 and Paul's (God's) teaching of weaker members. I'm not sure when I'm the weaker member or what I believe (and have taught) that is weaker but I'm glad He is able to make me stand. Anything else falls under the catagory of 'Vengence is Mine, I will repay.'

maria_t (maria_t)

12-29-2004, 02:24 PM

To washburndunc:

Please email me I have something to share with you off of Factnet in regards to your post. Its private and its solely for your ears from the Holy Spirit.

I can be reached at "gracekid2 @ aol.com"

If you give me an email address to write you back at, you can go make up a fake one to save your ID although I believe we already do know each other.

Thanks. I'll be on and off my computer today but will check for your email.
Maria T

maria_t (maria_t)

12-29-2004, 02:31 PM

Washburndunc

Galations 6:1-4 speaks not only of reconciling others to Christ, but isn't there a reference regarding having "clean" hands?? I think so, my bible is downstairs...

It was the Lord that called you to be a pastor, not a man, right?
It was the Lord then that equips you to be a pastor. You don't have to specifically go to any "bible college" to be a pastor. What did the elders and leaders of the early church days do??? There weren't bible colleges back then, they were led by the HOly Spirit...same as you should now be led of that same Holy Spirit.

Not all of the teachings are aberrant. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Remember that your gifts and callings are from God and not a man. I hope this helps.

Love in Christ
Maria

maria_t (maria_t)

12-29-2004, 02:33 PM

You are a true pastor if God has called you. Like I said the gifts and callings of God are without repentance. You don't have to prove anything to anyone.

Maria

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-29-2004, 03:47 PM

Hey Washburndunc; I just realized who you are. I remember you and your wife from Lenox. I don't personally agree with Roberta's position on the pastors from GG; though with some of them that may be so. When Peter took his final exam from Jesus, he failed. Next thing you knew, thousands were getting saved. He still made mistakes, but he walked in a calling. All the education in the world without the Spirit as guide and giver of all truth is but the nuts and bolts of deception. I'd rather be led by a Spirit filled child than a pastor who is not in the Spirit. Read Steven's message to those who were about to gnash him with their teeth and stone him; and remember that he was 'only a deacon'. How many years of Bible school did he have? Did he walk with Jesus for three years? Was David trained by the experts in the military to prepare for Goliath? Is the God of Elijah to be replaced by a system of human scholars conferring degrees and artificial 'callings' for those they teach? Samuel, as a child, heard God's voice. Eli didn't. Today, if you will hear His Voice...

bells_joy (bells_joy)

12-29-2004, 04:07 PM

Fabulous, Bob! Fabulous!

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-29-2004, 04:28 PM

So...I will ask you again, washburndunc:
You say you were ordained in 1980. Are you still affiliated with GGWO/Carl? Have you been re-educated and left behind the false and dangerous doctrines that you learned at TBS/SSB? Are you newly ordained by an orthodox denomination?

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-29-2004, 04:58 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen

All students of TBS/SSB GGWO MBS&S are not taught healthy doctrines. You are dealing with false and destructive teachings, and students who are ordained by this cult are NOT, I repeat NOT healthy pastors due to the teaching NOT their calling.

The level of denial that we all were indoctrinated by this mind control cult is disturbing. I have had occasion to speak with men who were educated at TBS and MBC&S and have left the ministry. The were all in agreement on this fact, that the teaching was faulty, the ordination was a piece of paper that meant nothing. They either left the pastor position or they went to other schools to be properly educated.

Being called to pastor is NOT the same thing as pastoring with illegitimate and destructive false doctrines. I never questioned a call...but if you are not teaching sound doctrine because you are spouting Carl's lies, I do not in anyway see that you are a legitimate qualified pastor, I don't care who you are or think you are.

I'll take it one step further, for Maria's sake...I in no way believe that Paul Stevens belongs in a pulpit. I would further suggest that those attending his church are in everyway leaving themselves open to false teaching. Why? Because though called, Paul has NEVER recieved anything except Carl's brand of teaching. Paul cannot have completely rid himself of such in such a short amount of time and is not qualified to preach.

I would think that any person, unless they prefer denial and want more pain, would open themselves up to any one who has only Carl's teachings to offer. Paul needs reeducation as does every single person now pastoring using Carl's threology.

The depth of indoctrination is something that is serious, and must be addressed. Just because you don't "feel" you were indoctrinatd with these lies, doesn't mean that you weren't.

Wake up. The early church DID have teachers Maria. They has Paul, Peter, Stephen etc. These people were the real thing. Carl is NOT.

I am beginning to finally understand Jim's exasperation. No matter how many times this subject is brought up, discussed and shown to be truthful, people doze off and slide right back into the mire.

The false teachings of SSB and MBC&S are apparent, the truth is what it is. If any choose to live continuously in the lies they were indoctrinated with no one can stop them I suppose.

I guess you really can lead a horse to water but not make him drink. Enjoy being parched, I guess.

*sigh*

Come on, folks. I am ready for the flame party.

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on December 29, 2004)

nonotone (nonotone)

12-29-2004, 05:32 PM

RJ,

You GO girl! I've just spent a healthy session looking at the Westiminster Seminary (www.wts.edu (http://www.wts.edu))WEB site. What a PLACE to get to know the TRUTH! They actually require their students to READ Hebrew and Greek fluently. Here'a a quote from their site:

"We may... wish that the Holy Spirit had given us the Word of God in a language... that we could more easily understand; but in his mysterious wisdom he gave it to us in Hebrew and in Greek. Hence if we want to know the Scriptures, to the study of Greek and Hebrew we must go." - J. Gresham Machen, September 25, 1929

Would that all GGWO Pastors had this level of committment to the sacredness of God's Eternal Word! Friends, there are NO shortcuts. If Pastors are going to properly understand, exposit, and preach the Word of God, they ultimately must have this level of preparation.

Brian Bowman
John 3:21

free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)

12-29-2004, 05:48 PM

Would that all GGWO Pastors had this level of committment to the sacredness of God's Eternal Word! 

...and SACREDNESS of God's Eternal presence, the privilege of prayer and the pulpit. Time and time again while at GGWO I experienced irreverance from these "pastors" while praying. It used to make me shudder to observe and listen to their course joking while praying.
The Elder's Declaration is an exemplar of the familiarity and irreverance of these "men of god [Carl] hold for their sacred trust, the flock of the Good Shepherd and God's beautiful love letter, the Bible."

FTBO

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-29-2004, 06:24 PM

Mysterious wisdom? Gee; and I thought that they were the languages of the times.

People in TBS/GGWO often didn't think except in what was mapped out for them by CHS. Now you're letting someone else do your thinking. Even if they have Good Housekeeping's seal of approval, that doesn't make them right. Very smart people can make very stupid mistakes. The 'tools' are often used to give your thoughts appropriate little boxes to live in. Have 'em if you want to. Education does not guarantee honesty or truth. There is One who leads us into all truth. God decided it.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-29-2004, 06:31 PM

And of course people have to process the misinformation they received at TBS/GGWO. For many of us, that process started while we were still 'in'. You should be looking with eyes ready to see changes the Spirit has for your thinking every time you go to the Word. The problem is to not exchange one calcified system of thinking for another. The Pharisees were so sure they had it all right; but Jesus thought otherwise when He showed up. Let Him show up in your studies today. Listen to His voice.

washburndunc (washburndunc)

12-29-2004, 07:18 PM

rjfernalld: the answer to your question is in my original post.

One thing that continues to sadden me is that too many of those who post here still make CHS and GGWO the issue. If this is true then things really haven't changed accept instead of 'love' for CHS and GGWO there is hatred. Real change and healing won't come 'til Jesus is the One Whom we look to.

My e-mail address is dwgwjwgw@hotmail.com

Good to see things are at least okay for you Bob B. God bless you. I agree with your point about quoting other men instead of the Bible. I find that it is a fault of mine though; when I give my opinion aren't I quoting myself? (This is only a comment about me, not about anyone else.)

boss_martian (boss_martian)

12-29-2004, 07:29 PM

washburndunc,

What is your interpretation of "delegated authority"?

What do the words "touch not mine annointed" mean to you?

Is the practice of "marking" acceptable to you?

What will happen at the Bema Seat?

What is an "evil report"?

Do you believe in the "geographical will of God"?

Do you believe in the concept of "one pastor, one teacher"?

washburndunc (washburndunc)

12-29-2004, 07:45 PM

boss, I don't use those terms so my interpretation is irrelevant. In fact I'm trying to understand what the following verses from 1Corinthians mean in light of all that has, is and will happen in my life.

4 ¶ Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 ¶ Love never fails ...

washburndunc (washburndunc)

12-29-2004, 07:50 PM

boss, please don't make me the issue. It doesn't matter what I think on any issue only what God thinks. If those terms have any meaning or no meaning to God that is what is important.

But if it makes you feel better, put me in a box. Just don't put God in one.

boss_martian (boss_martian)

12-29-2004, 08:08 PM

I truly believe every verse you have quoted, washburndunc. Especially "love never fails".

I love the people who have been victimized by this cult. My love for one in particular is deep, strong, and unconditional, but I love each and every person who has been abused by the ego of Carl Stevens.

Because I love these people, and anyone who is seeking God, I want to make sure that 1) the abuse stops, and 2) that it does not happen again.

The teachings of Carl Stevens are so dangerous, so ingrained in those that follow him, so hard to recover from, that I consider anyone who was ordained by him still dangerous, unless they have been formally trained in orthodox doctrine. You were told that Carl was preaching orthodox doctrine.

If we truly love people, we will do what ever is required to make sure that they don't get hurt. Once the danger is past, and the abusers repent, then we can talk of forgiveness.

Please stop equating hatred with genuine concern that an abusive cult is still hurting people.

You felt strongly enough to post that love rejoices in the truth. Well, the truth is that Carl is dangerous and abusive and his teachings are too.

I wish that current and ex-pastors (and there have been some) from GGWO would be a little less concerned with the prestige (pride) of being called pastor and take a good long look in the mirror and honestly answer the question "Is being a pastor about serving God and others, or is it all about me?"

Love NEVER fails.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-29-2004, 08:52 PM

Love never fails; but I do. I may not understand love in a given situation. Or; things which are not love can go about wearing love masks. God is love; and He said that love will fulfill all the commandments of God; that they depend upon it or hang upon it. Love needs to be our motivation, our source, our dwelling and resting place. You can count on evil masquerading as love. We know love by communion with the Spirit, and the witness borne to us through God's Word; spoken or written or pondered in the Spirit in our hearts. We needs must learn to allow love to give us shape for all our expressions and actions. Love is not a formula. It is the Person and character of God Himself. You can't manufacture it out of yourself; but you can receive and walk in it as the Lord inhabits you. I am crucified with Christ. Nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. That's the idea; Him instead of me. Not my ability to know or perform or line up, but Divine expression through human vessels. The vessels are corrupt. The treasure is not. Smell the sweet savor of the Spirit of God. He wants to occupy us. Paul, that great intellectual student of the Word, spoke at length about the inability of the natural man to perceive the things of God. It's necessary to view them in the Spirit. See I Corinthians 2.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-29-2004, 09:31 PM

Sorry Bob...GGWO has corrupt vessels who have corrupted the treasure and deposited it in everyone they could reach. It is called lies, false doctrine, indoctrination etc that takes years for some to rid themselves of.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-29-2004, 10:22 PM

My point is that truth is in God Himself. There isn't some alternative Bible school that is 'the right one', that is the place that really has a corner on accurate teaching. Different places are 'off' in different areas. We need to go to the Word itself, to the Spirit in prayer and meditation to find what He wants for us individually. If you buy into a particulr system, you become a clone of it. You can attend places and retain a degree of inner detachment; but total sellout brings chains. Sell out to God himself, and try to respect in others what you find you can. Don't buy anyone's program entirely. Paul didn't buy Jerusalem's. Luther didn't buy Rome's. Trust individuals as the Spirit leads you to, not as they tell you to. There's a distinction here. There are 'jurisdictions' where greater degrees of trust can be accepted. Nobody has the right to tell me I can't wear makeup http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-29-2004, 10:36 PM

Oh Bob...this is not what we are talking about.

GGWO is MORE THAN OFF. It is a destructive mind control cult...remember?

So, tell me, Bob...what in the name of God have we been talking about all this time? Just another "slightly off church"? NO NO NO.

This is ridiculous and not the sort of pie in the sky concept approach that gets the truth out about this place.

cape_cod (cape_cod)

12-29-2004, 10:39 PM

Hello to ALL!

First time poster here. Please know that I will NOT allow anyone to bait me as I will NOT respond. I think the way that I do and am very happy with my perspective. If you don't like what I have to say then just move on, as I have absolutely NO interest in anyone's negativity.

I was 'in' The Bible Speaks ministry from 1976 - 1981. My wife and I graduated from Steven's school of the Bible in 1979 and immediately went out and started, with others, a 'team' in another country. We left TBS in 1981 after we learned many of the deep, dark secrets about the ministry through one of the two PR men at the time. My wife and I left quietly and did NOT attack the ministry in any way. We simply wanted 'out'. I was working with Pastor Kelly in Maine at the time and did NOT even tell him that I was leaving. Paul Stevens and Mario Marston visited us and I told them that there was no use in discussing it as our decision was firm and that was that.

I am so thankful to God for leading me to TBS and finding many life long friends and the most important person in my entire life, my wife. Those were great years. One just simply had to know how to filter out all of the BS. Discernment was the key along with being secure in who you were/are as a person.

My brother-in-law recently told my wife about this site. All that I can say is that this whole thing (TBS/GGWO) reveals once again that history truly does repeat itself over and over again. History has been repeating itself regarding this ministry since the 1960's.

I NEVER bought into ALL of the teaching of Carl Stevens and would actually leave many services extremely angry, asking my wife how the man could even say certain things that were obviously NOT of God, even though He was given the credit. I remember the 'messages' warning people that IF you left the ministry that you'd very possibly get cancer, or die some other way because of leaving God's 'man'. That is what I call blasphemy. Actually, Steven Quinlan was my favorite teacher by far. I read your postings on FACTNet Steve. God bless you!

I was present with Carl Stevens many different times when I heard him gossiping extremely negatively about many different people with whom he acted sweet and loving face to face. I call that a coward. I had personal experiences with a lot of TBS leadership back in the late 70's and I saw a lot of flaws in ALL of their thinking.

I have been reading FACTNet for a couple of months now and I have this to say. I do NOT agree with ANY of you here on FACTNet 100%. I see many different things that many of you say on here as totally wrong and misleading. Then on other occasions, I see that what you say is rooted in complete TRUTH. I do NOT consider TBS/GGWO a cult, although it has MANY cultish tendencies. TBS/GGWO is deeply and greatly flawed, no doubt. However, so are the vast majority of Christian churches to different degrees. It's just that TBS/GGWO has many more 'weird' false doctrines and concepts than most. I do NOT agree 100% with ANY denomination within Christianity. NO ONE church or individual has a corner on the whole TRUTH.

My view is that every individual needs to be led by the Holy Spirit and allow God to work in their lives. I think that some people need to move on from their disillusionments with TBS/GGWO and make God the issue. Don't you think that God will deal with this entire issue in His own timetable??? Place your focus on Jesus Christ and pray and truly believe that He is in FULL control and that LOVE (Christ) will win out in the end.

BTW - I use this 'handle' due to the fact that I was living on the Cape Cod when I first found out about TBS ministry. Heck, my friend Chet Farmer took me home from my very first Bible study in 1976 and we moved to Lenox at the same time.

My name is Joe.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-29-2004, 10:46 PM

Chet used to tell great stories about the Cape. Welcome...any friend of Chet's...I loved him very much and miss him so.

bruder5 (bruder5)

12-29-2004, 11:59 PM

Chet may have been the catylist that created (in part) the recent exodus. I met with him a few years ago and he showed me the the Alan Lang story. He also gave me (which I still have)all the celtic40 e-mails that Paul wrote to Alan's wife. At the time Chet felt something had to be done. I was concerned for the Langs and decided against direct confrontation. Fortunately Jim Fawcett moved ahead with there urging. Chet gave me a old "Baptised unto a Man" tape... Thought I'd get a kick out of it.
Joe
Glad to hear your well. Many of us that left in 81 have sustained life long friendships.

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-30-2004, 02:06 AM

Thank you, washburndunc.
Thank you, Bob Brinton.
Thank you, Cape Cod Joe.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-30-2004, 02:26 AM

I repeat...

Ladies and Gentlemen

All students of TBS/SSB GGWO MBS&S are not taught healthy doctrines. You are dealing with false and destructive teachings, and students who are ordained by this cult are NOT, I repeat NOT healthy pastors due to the teaching NOT their calling.

The level of denial that we all were indoctrinated by this mind control cult is disturbing. I have had occasion to speak with men who were educated at TBS and MBC&S and have left the ministry. The were all in agreement on this fact, that the teaching was faulty, the ordination was a piece of paper that meant nothing. They either left the pastor position or they went to other schools to be properly educated.

Being called to pastor is NOT the same thing as pastoring with illegitimate and destructive false doctrines. I never questioned a call...but if you are not teaching sound doctrine because you are spouting Carl's lies, I do not in anyway see that you are a legitimate qualified pastor, I don't care who you are or think you are.

I'll take it one step further, for Maria's sake...I in no way believe that Paul Stevens belongs in a pulpit. I would further suggest that those attending his church are in everyway leaving themselves open to false teaching. Why? Because though called, Paul has NEVER recieved anything except Carl's brand of teaching. Paul cannot have completely rid himself of such in such a short amount of time and is not qualified to preach.

I would think that any person, unless they prefer denial and want more pain, would open themselves up to any one who has only Carl's teachings to offer. Paul needs reeducation as does every single person now pastoring using Carl's threology.

The depth of indoctrination is something that is serious, and must be addressed. Just because you don't "feel" you were indoctrinatd with these lies, doesn't mean that you weren't.

Wake up. The early church DID have teachers Maria. They has Paul, Peter, Stephen etc. These people were the real thing. Carl is NOT.

I am beginning to finally understand Jim's exasperation. No matter how many times this subject is brought up, discussed and shown to be truthful, people doze off and slide right back into the mire.

The false teachings of SSB and MBC&S are apparent, the truth is what it is. If any choose to live continuously in the lies they were indoctrinated with no one can stop them I suppose.

I guess you really can lead a horse to water but not make him drink. Enjoy being parched, I guess.

*sigh*

Sounds like the elders have you wrapped around their fingers.

bells_joy (bells_joy)

12-30-2004, 03:06 AM

HOW do YOU know what Paul has recieved since his departure?? Talk to him lately, RJ? NO, didn't think so. Shut up till you check your sources.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-30-2004, 03:26 AM

Telling me to shut up is very childish and unnecessary, for I have never aquiesed to any request but one that i do so.

The fact that Paul has NOT stepped down from his pulpit and given himself and the congregation that he culled from his father,a break from the turmoil says a lot. After he left GGWO, it would have been healthy for him to take a break, move away (get some emotional and physical distance from Baltimore) and get himself together.

Then enroll as a full or part time student in a good orthodox college/seminary and get some independent counseling.

By staying in Baltimore and causing a church split it only shows he is still much more involved emotionally with GGWO and that he has not erradicated the old teachings.

It takes years to recover from physical, spiritual, parental and emotional abuse. Paul has suffered many years, most all of his life from these. You seem to think I don't care about him. Paul knows how I feel, that I pray for him everyday, and that I have disagreed all along with the latest decisions he has made...I have disagreed because I care about him and believe he has suffered so much more than any of us realize.

Even with Paul receiving counseling as he continues to split the church and confuse the people says a lot. I wish he had given himself a chance to clean out his old lines, old teachings and old resentments before he began this latest attempt to assert himself.

There is much you cannot understand I suppose about why I wish Paul had come to a place of true cleansing before he took on a congregation, but I see this all from a different angle.

Your attempts to be loyal to Paul are another indication that this split church is not as healthy as it is claimed to be.

I find this unfortunate for everyone involved, including you and especially Paul. Paul knows how I feel about this, and he also knows that I care about him. That's all either of us need to know.

I am comfortable with that, Paul also seems to be...odd that you aren't. I can only surmise you have not been away from GGWO very long, and that you didn't go far away from your comfort zone being at Paul's new church. No sin, of course...but very unfortunate for Paul. I still pray for him every day.

You really are amusing with your continued attempts to demonize me. It isn't necessary you know. *s*

anon_brief (anon_brief)

12-30-2004, 03:47 AM

It is clear that one does not correct overnight, or in a matter of several months, the aberrant doctrines and behaviours taught and instilled by GG over a lifetime.

While Paul may be on the right road, it is hardly the road to Damascus. He may be undergoing a change, but that change is hardly a miraculous conversion.

It will take time and much work to undo the conditioning that he has experienced. Paul's reported brokeness and repentance is encouraging. It gives hope that the child will not follow in the footsteps of the father. Changes made will be perceived as valid when they stand the test of time. Only then will people trust that Paul's epiphany has been genuine and not just another metamorphosis of the old Stevens dynasty.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-30-2004, 03:53 AM

Very well said AB...very well said.

anon_brief (anon_brief)

12-30-2004, 04:05 AM

Further, the Paul issue is really a non-issue.

The topic is divisive and it only benefits those who wish to distract us from the true issue - years of spiritual abuse perpetrated by a leader and organisation cloaked in Christianity.

free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)

12-30-2004, 05:31 AM

Paul Stevens has told congregants at Finished Work Ministries to consider their church an affiliate ministry of Greater Grace World Outreach.Therefore, this is not a church split but an unhealthy coalition to the personality cult known as GGWO. Any way you slice it, it comes up rotten to the core!

FTBO

cape_cod (cape_cod)

12-30-2004, 07:24 AM

Thank you for your welcome rjfernalld, bruder5, and bjerwin. I think that I may have known you bruder5 by the sounds of your posts, but I'm NOT quite sure who you are yet. BJ, well, I do know who you are and hello, nice to 'read' you.*chuckle* Please tell Mike that I said hi. Mike was roommates with my brother-in-law in Lenox for a time.

Chet Farmer was a true character in every sense of the word. I had a few drinks with him approximately six months before he went on to Heaven. We reminisced about our enjoyable times on the Cape and in Lenox and talked about our mutual friends. Actually, I talked with him for a couple of hours on the phone just several months before he passed on and we talked about TBS/GGWO and the doctrinal and various problems with the ministry. Chet was at a very happy place in his life.

I am saying all of this for a reason as I have seen in a number of postings from rjfernalld where she has a love for Chet. I'd like to ask you rj IF you felt that he had a right to teach and preach the Word of God?!?! Chet was a very talented teacher. My point IS that just because someone sat under Carl Stevens teachings does NOT mean that they didn't have the spiritual maturity to seperate for themselves the false teachings from the TRUTH. I know that I personally did. I, along with many others, were NOT some spiral eyed clones in some sort of trance who bought everything that Carl Stevens taught. Yes, I know, there were MANY there that were cloned. Yes, many DID buy into some of the brain washing techniques that he employed.

However, the problem with your generalizations is that NOT everyone was thinking the same way in regards to what was taught from the pulpit. For instance, I used to talk with Chet concerning some of the 'weird' teachings and we would usually agree together that it was a bunch of BS. I would estimate that 60% - 65% of what was taught was right on the mark, based on truth. The other 35% - 40% I simply did NOT believe was proper teaching and did NOT receive it. I believe that it's each individuals responsibility to decide what they will accept and what they will reject as false teachings. That is what free will/choice is all about. Every Christian has the responsibility to live unto God as an individual and will be held accountable to God for their choices. In the end, we shall stand before God all alone. (Wow, what a 'weird' teaching that I have read on here that one's Pastor teacher will stand with you at the Bema seat judgement.) That's a very simple, and yet good example. Is THAT Biblical? No, it's NOT. End of subject. My point IS that MANY who graduated from Stevens school of the Bible knew how to sift out the BS and that did NOT make the other 60% - 65% (or whatever) of the teachings invalid. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. By far the majority of the teachings had their foundations in the Baptist denomination. Carl Stevens used a lot of other's teachings and called them his own. R.B. Theime who is a controversial fundamentalist for one.

Personally, I do NOT belong to any denomination and see flaws and false teachings in each and every one that I have studied in regards to their doctrines. As Steven Quinlan said in one of his posts in so many words, that there are so many circular arguments when it comes to doctrine. ALL of the arguments have already been made over the years as to what each and every particular denomination believes and what it does NOT believe and it's up to each and every individual believer to either accept or reject the different teachings. For instance, lets take the Catholic church. Talk about MANY false teachings. However, their are countless beautiful Christians who are Catholic and do NOT allow those false teachings to effect their walk with God whatsoever. I know that some will say, yeah, but TBS/GGWO's false teachings are far worse and much more serious in nature. I will NOT disagree with that theory. However, please do NOT take the individuals responsibility away in regards to what they either accept or reject for teachings.

Okay, I have belabored that point quite enough.

One of the biggest things that used to bother me in Lenox was watching people position themselves over others to make a positive impression on their Pastor. Yes, TBS turned out a number of clones. However, there were also a lot of independent thinkers in TBS such as Chet and myself (and many, many, many more who left the ministry over the years as well). For instance, people who did NOT buy into ALL of TBS BS and knew how to seperate the false teachings from the truth of the Word of God.

The wonderful loving people in the ministry was what drew me to TBS in the first place. I did NOT become part of TBS because of Carl Stevens. There was so many people who loved God with their entire heart and soul and wished for nothing more than to grow closer to Him and serve Him each day. Yes, the LOVE that was there drew me and kept me for a time (5 years). However, once I became enlightened to the truth and gained the knowledge of the sins of the leadership my wife and I could no longer subject ourselves to the corruption which God is exposing right here on FACTNet.

This thread is about Paul Stevens. I knew him back in Lenox a little bit, but we really never hung around each other even though we were the same age. What I did know about him I liked. I was extremely saddened to read the Alan Lang story. Actually, I was saddened for ALL involved, Paul included. Sin is ugly and it serves only to draw people away (total seperation) from God. *Numbers 32:23 - and be sure your sin will find you out. Eventually, ALL who dwell in overt or hidden sin will be exposed, just ask Carl Stevens.

british_sponge_bob (british_sponge_bob)

12-30-2004, 07:43 AM

RJ there are times when you do need to just simply shut up. You go on and on like a broken record and it really gets wearing. When you have something really "of God" to say then speak your piece. ONCE. You are so damned arrogant you think you have to be right on every single issue.

I agree with Bells_joy you do need to shut up. You may think you are doing some good on here but the truth is you aren't. You are very antagonistic and argumentative in every post. Oh and now you agree with "AB" but others who have said the same thing you rake over the coals.

Let washburndunc post what he wants, its his business, not yours to butt in. Bob Brighton you posts are amazing dude!! You stand up to that witch RJ. You have such a beautiful heart and some real sound principles. Don't lose heart just because some know it all woman preacher has to shoot her mouth at you. Then she dares everybody to go ahead and flame her.

I like what CapeCod had to say. So Joe, you're in now because RJ likes you. I remember Chet Farmer he was an ok guy. I just admire your perspective on things. Sure shows someone around here has a normal functioning brain. Surely RJ's was poisoned by the teachings she was under all those years. The bottom line still is a domineering mouthy woman who needs to learn her merciless statements over and over reveal her cruel heart. If anybody needs to "get with God" its her. For Christ's sake she is on this form 24 hours a day. How can someone even hear from God if all they do is exhaust themselves posting all day. She doesn't shut up long enough for anyone to get a word in edgewise and certainly not God.

Bells, CapeCod, washburndunc welcome to Factnet which a/k/a RJ's private ****ing place. Just ignore the troll she has become. She's been out of GGWO too long to have an opinion of current day crap going on down there.

You guys just keep posting and stand up to her.
Its the only way to shut her up. Stand your ground.

B.G.

british_sponge_bob (british_sponge_bob)

12-30-2004, 07:57 AM

FTBO I was in Florida a few weeks ago when Paul Stevens was there. Tim Kelly later told me directly that Paul is not affiliated with Baltimore. So did Reed, in fact he broke his affiliation a few months ago. Lots of the branch ministries are planning to do the same if Carl doesn't get in the pulpit and publically repent.

Now I haven't been up to that church. It was definately birthed from a church split. I am not surprised that its growing. Someone with a repentant heart will aways be blessed by God. Gee RJ imagine that I got that all by myself from the Word of God and not from TBS/GGWO teaching.

B.G.

british_sponge_bob (british_sponge_bob)

12-30-2004, 08:05 AM

Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 10:28 am:

--------------------------------------------------
RJ's post earlier today:

------------------------------
So...I will ask you again, washburndunc:
You say you were ordained in 1980. Are you still affiliated with GGWO/Carl? Have you been re-educated and left behind the false and dangerous doctrines that you learned at TBS/SSB? Are you newly ordained by an orthodox denomination?

This is none of your business RJ, this is where you clearly overstep personal boundries. This guy is a new poster so you are all over him like a fly on rabbit dung. Back off and let the man live his life before God as he sees fit. Go cry like a baby because you got your wish asking to be flamed. It isn't nice, is it.

kathleen (kathleen)

12-30-2004, 08:24 AM

Hey I graduated in 1980. Was a good year, I think?

washburndunc (washburndunc)

12-30-2004, 01:49 PM

Hey, guys, thanks for trying to protect me but I don't need it. I am satified with God's ability to make me stand in spite of my weekness. I did not find my identity in Carl Stevens when I was there nor will it be changed by negative commments by anyone. (If my personal identity changes because of what anyone says or believes - God being the only exception, it is my problem. My desire would be to let God deal with anyone who needs dealing with and my prayer would be that they would get God's heart.)

Why are we all devouring each other. Isn't there a verse about that??? (of course there is:

Ga 5:15 But if you bite and devour one
another, beware lest you be consumed by one
another!)

And isn't that what so many of you have against GGWO leadership. Be careful that as you expose sin, you don't live in Roman 2 - that is being just like what you judge.

So sorry to hear that Chet Farmer died. He was in our wedding. Absent from the body, present with the Lord.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

bells_joy (bells_joy)

12-30-2004, 02:45 PM

WOOOO HOOOO! What a JOY to have a few friends out here! Thanks washburndunk (what can that possibly stand for...?) for Gal. 5:15 as well as other scriptures you've posted earlier... like the 1Cor. 13 verses. It's easy to let PEOPLE get to me and react to them rather than issues. "If I have not LOVE...." God Bless you WBD and BOB too (as in Sponge)
It gets screwed up when people get on here who have an agenda... for their own personal gain.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-30-2004, 05:12 PM

Cape Cod Joe; Welcome. I too came in 1976, but didn't fully get out until about 1996-7. I could find a date if I went looking. Thank God you had Chet to hash things out with. I came knowing things were 'off', but lived in a kind of internal exile, not daring to say anything. But I sure didn't agree with all that I heard. I'd grown up in Baptist churches that had basically zero grace once you'd gone by salvation. Grace was misused in TBS/GGWO; but at least it was taught, and not just as license to sin. I had no idea about most of the sins of the leadership. I didn't read the Eagle articles or the CRI report until this year. But I knew that the system and leadership there were stifling our right as individuals to respond to the Spirit. That was the most serious fault there. And it is a fault that permeates most of Christianity. It hangs around this message board also.

I went to Ed Chute's study on the Cape before going to Lenox, and graduated in 1979. I imagine we've at least met, though I wasn't the most outgoing type. I sang in The Finished Work, and ushered. I managed to refrain from bus ministry until after the horde headed south. If you care to write, my address is bob.brinton@verizon.net

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-30-2004, 05:50 PM

"I am saying all of this for a reason as I have seen in a number of postings from rjfernalld where she has a love for Chet. I'd like to ask you rj IF you felt that he had a right to teach and preach the Word of God?!?! Chet was a very talented teacher. My point IS that just because someone sat under Carl Stevens teachings does NOT mean that they didn't have the spiritual maturity to seperate for themselves the false teachings from the TRUTH. I know that I personally did. I, along with many others, were NOT some spiral eyed clones in some sort of trance who bought everything that Carl Stevens taught. Yes, I know, there were MANY there that were cloned. Yes, many DID buy into some of the brain washing techniques that he employed."

Actually the facts I learned about the SSB ordination being "just a piece of paper without much meaning at all" CAME from discussions I had with Chet. I never said there weren't men who could teach and preach at TBS...in fact Chet was my favorite teacher and friend. But he taught me the foolishness of the SSB ordination itself was because it came from Carl. He told much and more besides about the inner workings of the inner circle and the BS that passed for spirituality.

He was a very big help to me when I left the ministry and although I already cared about him before leaving, I learned to love him even more after leaving. His honesty and complete candor cut through the layers of indoctrination better than anything else.

Once more I am told to shut up? Funny...Chet told me to never obey that command *LOL* but to tell, talk, repeat and say the truth about GGWO no matter if anyone wants to hear it or not. He truly was quite the character.

I miss him and think he'd have loved FactNet...BS and all.

cape_cod (cape_cod)

12-31-2004, 12:22 AM

Hello to british_sponge_bob, kathleen, washburndunc, bells_joy, and bob_brinton.
The only name that I recognize is Bob Brinton. I only knew you and your brother to say hello to though. I remember you and your wife, Mary, and a few others singing in the group 'The Finished Work'. You guys sounded good.

Bob, you always seemed kind of shy and reserved back in the 70's. You have a lot of good things to say here on FACTNet. Most of all I agree with your (my own words) perspective and emphasis on bringing the living Spirit of God into our interpretation of the Word of God in order to make it alive and fresh and personal in our lives at any given moment in time. For instance, I accepted Jesus Christ into my heart as my Lord and Saviour in December of 1975. No man and his interpretation of the Bible led me to the Lord, the Spirit of God led me to Himself. I had tried to read the Bible many different times with no success at all UNTIL one night in total frustration and humility I prayed and asked (begged actually) God to reveal Himself to me through His word. I felt Him strongly telling me to read the gospel of John which I did and then knelt by my bedside in tears and accepted Christ into my heart. It ALL made sense now and was so extremely clear. Up until that point the Bible looked like a completely different language to me and I did NOT have ANY depth of understanding. I always pray for God's Spirit to reveal His depth to me in a practical way so that I can apply these truths to my life. I was part of Buck Dam's Cape Cod ministry and NOT Ed Chute's ministry. I first met Ed Chute in the mid 90's as he was going to the same Vineyard church as Bruce Stevens. His daughter, Ruth, is married to Mario Marston who now is the head Pastor of that church.
BTW~ I didn't read the Eagle articles or the CRI report before I left either. I was amongst the very first wave of the 1981 departure. I knew one of the two public relations guys who left and had the inside story and told me everything. My wife and I decided that same night that we were leaving for good due to the corruption at the top.

rjfernalld, to put things in proper perspective, Chet and I did NOT hang out together a lot while we were in Lenox. However, there was a certain bond of closeness between most of the people who came into TBS from the Cape Cod ministry. Chet and I decided totally independently from each other to be the first two from Buck Dam's ministry to make the move to Lenox. Once in Lenox we kind of went our own way and hung out with different people. Chet actually had a really tough time that first year in Lenox and used to go back to the Cape and party on the weekends. Hey, we were both the rebellious types.*chuckle* Chet had his taxidermy business which consumed a lot of his time. Did you know that Chet ONLY went to TBS originally to get Bible education and Pastor's certificate as the plan was for him to take over Buck Dam's ministry eventually?!? Our Cape Cod fellowship was very strong with many wonderful Christians who loved the Lord with all of their hearts.

I met a wonderful woman that first semester at Bible school who would eventually become my wife. We just celebrated our 27th anniversary just this month. My wife has been God's greatest blessing to me in this life. God led me to TBS for a time and I know that for sure. To be perfectly honest with you I almost exclusively remember ONLY the good things from that period of my life. Like I have already stated, I made some lifelong friends in that short period of time.

* rjfernalld said - "Actually the facts I learned about the SSB ordination being "just a piece of paper without much meaning at all" CAME from discussions I had with Chet."

* Actually, that was the main reason why I NEVER did get ordained. I was asked a couple of times by Carl Stevens himself to become ordained and I told him, NO, that I was NOT ready and did NOT feel the Lord's leading. I took the position of Pastor seriously and knew that God had NOT called me to become a Pastor at that particular point in time. Yes, I could teach the Bible, but THAT is only a very small part of what truly being a Pastor is all about, don't you agree!?! There are MANY ordained Pastor's throughout the country who were NEVER called of God to become ordained. I personally witnessed MANY men (good friends) become ordained in TBS and THEN become puffed up and full of themselves and abused their authority in many different areas. I knew MANY in the inner circle at the time and lets just say that I was NOT impressed with them like they were of themselves.

Oh, and rjfernalld, I hope that you don't think that I told you to shut up, because I didn't. Chet was right, don't EVER obey that command.*LOL*
Yes, I think that he'd love FACTNet as well, although he wasn't much of a computer guy.

Now, as far as Buddy DeMeo at CC. Well, that's for another post. Buddy was best man in my wedding and I know him well. We just chose to disagree when it came to many different doctrines. BTW - is Danny Baker really leaving GGWO? Danny and I were good friends back in the 70's. Actually, we chose to be roommates together as freshman back in Sept. of 1976. Does he still have that crazy laugh? He was a nut.

Always remember, LOVE is the answer!!!

cape_cod (cape_cod)

12-31-2004, 12:36 AM

I should clarify one thing. I haven't even spoken to either Buddy DeMeo OR Danny Baker since December of 1979 so I don't know what their personalities turned into from being in TBS/GGWO all those years. The ministry did some pretty weird things to a lot of people and it changed them for the worse. What I knew of them up until that point I liked a lot for the most part.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-31-2004, 12:39 AM

Chet spoke often about the Cape and I always got the feeling he wished he'd never left. He told a lot of stories about being a waiter, knowing Janis Joplin and he never talked about the curch there without laughing with that far away look.

He was like a mentor for awhile when I first got to Lenox. I was a bit older than the kids out of high school and had a lot of worry about being back in school. He was a big help. Also, he was so different...laid back, loved fishing, etc...he made that first year bearable. When they made him leave and maligned him from the pulpit I was crushed. Once I too left I called him and we reconnected. I was so glad he married Elizabeth and he adored the kids. He deserved every bit of happiness he had, you know?

It is good to hear you speak of him. I was glad to have been his friend.

Roberta

washburndunc (washburndunc)

12-31-2004, 01:33 AM

Cape Cod: Chet was a part of our wedding. Steve Stratos was my best man. We were married in 1977. I must know you. If you want to email me my address is dwgwjwgw@hotmail.com

I too have many good memories. I too know God had me there for a while. I was talking today with Steve Sousa about our times in Lenox. He was in S. Berwick for a semester.

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-31-2004, 01:35 AM

Thank you one and all... so blessed by all your postings!!! Why I have to remember only the good times.. so many wonderful wonderful folks that we were "family" with...

Cape Cod, you make me laugh, if I didn't hang around with you in Lenox... I missed a big blessing in my life ... hehe... you sound like my kind of bro...You have to email me and let me and Mike know who you are... merwin1@tampabay.rr.com.. (merwin1@tampabay.rr.com.). we are getting old so we need you to help us out http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Bob Brinton - now I know who you are. You and Mary were such loves. Thank you for your postings. Aren't the other 2 of "the finished work quartet in Orlando, FL? I enjoyed them so very much...

I heard from Olivodottis recently that Chet had died. Chet was such a good friend to so many. Earth is a sadder place at his passing... But I betcha heaven is a hell of alot funner!!!!

Joy Bells are you "the Joy Bells"... again I am old now.. but I remember a lovely lady Joy Bells who was fun to be with and a "true heart".

Thanks to all... My night after a ****ty day is brighter.... http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

bruder5 (bruder5)

12-31-2004, 01:45 AM

Cape Cod Bob- both pr guys at TBS back in 80-81 saw things that we discussed behind the scenes for a year before we left. From there trip to Clarksville to investigate the Doctorates to driving up to my church to hammer out a language of change. Like many we thought that we could create change...Not even close.I admire and respect many that post. One of the dynamics of trauma is a fragmented story. Putting pieces together again requires talk, talk and more talk. Sometimes repetitive and almost always neccesary. Action is certainly needed and I think Jim, Dave and others are on to something. Others may not be there or may not feel called to that form of action. Regardless, the weakest voice on FN has it's place. An excellent book called "Trauma and Recovery" by Judith Herman focuses primarily on social displacement caused by war, famine and addiction (amoung other things) but could easily read as a book of recovery from cults. She suggests the most important first step is finding places of safety. From safety comes voice.
The pr guys are alive and well in Maine...

cape_cod (cape_cod)

12-31-2004, 01:52 AM

Duncan, I presume.*LOL* I had to really think that name through to figure out who you were. Hey, Danny Baker and I were co-captains of TBS volleyball team in Lenox. You were on the team too, right?!? Of course you were as you took it so seriously. We had some good times, didn't we. How are you Duncan? My wife and I were married in 1977 (Dec.)as well.

Yes, I know Steve Stratos. Actually, I remember when he first came into the ministry and we met on the basketball court and I made the mistake of challenging him to a game of one on one and he kicked my ass.*LOL* He was quite a basketball player as I remember. His wife Leslie sang in our wedding. What a voice and such a sweet woman.

Steve Sousa rings a bell, but I can't place him right now.

Roberta, you're NOT Italian are you?!? As I recall there were two Italian sisters and one of them was named Roberta. One of them was a teacher.

washburndunc (washburndunc)

12-31-2004, 02:07 AM

Cape Cod: Leslie sang at ours. I introduced the Statoses to the ministry and they came with me to SSB in fall of '76.

I remember volleyball. Can't place you. Please E-mail me.

God bless.

cape_cod (cape_cod)

12-31-2004, 02:22 AM

Okay, last quick post as I have to get off this computer as I have to go watch a movie now.*L*

BJ and Mike, my wife and I always thought that you two made a really cute couple and we're blessed to see that you're still together. Moi a character? hmnmm, well, I have been accused of THAT a time or two over the years.*chuckle*
Gerry L. was Mike's roommate and I am his brother-in-law.

bruder5, yes, I knew both L.L. and B.O. and am well aware that they both live in Maine as I live in Maine as well. L.L. and his wife (since gone on to be with the Lord) had us over to their house for dinner and broke all the news to us way back in 1981. I asked a lot of questions and my wife and I decided to leave TBS ministry that very same night. As for trauma and recovery, we didn't experience ANY trauma so consequently we didn't need any recovery. We left very quietly without even telling anyone until we were asked by different ones why we left. Our Christianity was totally grounded in Christ and NOT in Carl Stevens and it was time to move on.

Duncan and BJ, IF a name helps, my name is Joe Hanson and my wife's name is Marion.

Okay, I've really got to run. It's truly great talking with all of you. So MANY great memories.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-31-2004, 05:21 AM

BJ; The Finished Work had various people in it. Brenda Baril is with her husband Dean in Orlando. My brother David used to play piano for us and lives in Becket,MA. Several others were with us during my time, including Malcolm Smith, Lise Roy, and Deb Demillo (Brinton, David's ex). Most of us spent some time either officially or unofficially in the print shop.

Joe Hanson; I think I remember you, though not by your last name. Was Marion a secretary in Lenox? Seems like maybe she was someone's sister.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-31-2004, 05:25 AM

Joe; How is Bobby Olivadotti? Someone once posted on this site that he'd 'gone atheist'. I can understand how that can happen to people, but hope it's not true.

bruder5 (bruder5)

12-31-2004, 02:39 PM

Cape Cod- I jumped around a bit with the last post. No implication regarding a need for "recovery" I to live in Maine.

bjerwin (bjerwin)

01-01-2005, 01:02 AM

Yes Joe and Marion, talk about cute couples.... you two took the prize on that one.

How are Mary and Jerry? and Mary's sister Kathy? I miss them alot.

And someone in here mentioned Steve Stratos and family and Steve Quinlan, and that he (SQ) had written on a thread in here. I would love to read that if someone could lead me to it. Many of us were in the ministry when Steve and Jolie had their first baby in South Berwick. We all took turns "walking the baby" cuz he was so collicky. Those kind of times and all of your friendships made the whole experience so very lovely. Yep, I'm one of those who thrown out the ****ty stuff and look back very fondly at the very excellent memories, and thank the Lord Jesus for all the gifts we experienced while at TBS/GG.

Love ya all. Thanks for being such a lovely part of our lives.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

01-01-2005, 04:49 AM

BJ, Steve is here:squinlan@qwest.net

Ron Kelly was on here not too long back, also. His address is RKellyJr5327@suscom.net

cape_cod (cape_cod)

01-02-2005, 12:56 AM

bob_brinton, no, Marion was NOT a secretary in Lenox. Marion had two brothers that graduated from SSOTB along with us, Gerry and Dicky.

Bob, I have absolutely no idea how Bobby O. is doing spiritually. I haven't seen him in many years. However, I do have some friends who do see him and he is doing well from what I know. As for him becoming an atheist, I have no idea whatsoever. I have heard some things but do NOT care to repeat second hand information of that sort. Personally, I can NOT understand how someone can become an atheist AFTER knowing and experiencing so much biblical truth.

bruder5, what part of Maine are you in IF you don't mind me asking!?! I live in Saco, right on the coast.

bjerwin, you still sound so sweet even after all these years. Mary and Gerry are doing great. I talked with them just last night. Kathy is doing great as well and she lives with her husband and children in Germany. Actually, Mary just got back from visiting Kathy in Germany.

Yes, Steve Quinlan had a thread somewhere on here on FACTNet, in the archives somewhere. From the sounds of his posts he is STILL chalk full of wisdom. I remember Jolie well, as we both used to go swimming a lot at the Folkine pool. She was so nice.

BJ, I am in total agreement with you in regards to looking back so fondly at ALL the 'good stuff' and simply forgetting most of the '****ty stuff'.
Marion and I had three fantastic years overall in Lenox and thank God for ALL the wonderful people that we met during those years. Like I said above, we formed many lifelong friendships that we will always cherish and be thankful to God for.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

01-02-2005, 04:12 AM

Joe; Did you usher for some time in Lenox? Moustache and dark hair?

bruder5 (bruder5)

01-02-2005, 03:10 PM

cape cod
Work in Portland and live north of there a bit. Have a talk radio show on WMPG (in Portland) called Grace Street. Show is focused on addiction and recovery.

jeannie (jeannie)

01-02-2005, 04:01 PM

Bruder,

I had a feeling about who you are....

Would like to say "I am sorry", twenty-five-ish years too late.

We sure didn't "get it" in 81.. Wish we had heeded your words back then.. still think of Ann, Wes and Martha...

Did you leave an email address? I would love to talk with you.

Here's mine: Jeannieree44@aol.com

cape_cod (cape_cod)

01-02-2005, 06:01 PM

Bob, no I never ushered. However, I did and do have a moustache and dark hair. Okay, okay, the hair isn't anywhere near as dark as it was almost 30 years ago.

bruder5, that is excellent that you have a talk radio show to help people from their addictions. What years were you in Lenox? Did we know each other?

Hi jeannie, I'm also wondering if I knew you back in Lenox or NOT!?! My wife and I left Lenox in Sept. of 1979 help start a 'team'.

bruder5 (bruder5)

01-02-2005, 06:24 PM

cape_cod
I was in Wiscasset/So.Berwick/Finland and stayed in Maine after the move to Lenox. Was in Lenox every couple of weeks or so. I began in 72 and left in 81.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

01-02-2005, 09:16 PM

Cape Cod Joe; Is Gerry LaFlamme Marion's brother?

bjerwin (bjerwin)

01-03-2005, 04:30 PM

After watching yesterday's GG Sunday morning service, I was so sad for everyone there.

Sad for Pastor that he still equates "loyalty and friendship" with letting him have his way, and not challenging him.

Sad that because of "his teachings" that his friends are afraid to help him see the truth.

Sad that some of his truest friends and family, Paul and Barbara, are on the outside for trying to be bibilical with him. I am sad that Paul and Barbara got hurt, however I am happy for them because I do believe the Lord Jesus will bless his church abundantly for his stab at trying to love and help his dad.

It is apparent that it is same ol, same ol in the minstry. Seeing so many sitting in the front seats "being his loyal friends" but refusing to really be his Godly friends. His message was a mangled mess, which is what all the recent ones have been like. And reconciliation was mentioned, I was hoping it was with his son; however, I don't believe it was.

Loyalty and reconciliation were the message thoughts, and not a scripture in the bunch.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

01-03-2005, 06:05 PM

"And reconciliation was mentioned"

I was very curious about that too. It seemed he was addressing the subject and nodding to someone sitting on the platform.

I wonder if they will spend the time until the affiliates meeting to reconnect and reconcile with evey branch they can so that the meeting will be a moot point, i.e. a contrived vote of confidence for Carl and nothing more. It wouldn't surprise me if this was the strategy they are employing.

cape_cod (cape_cod)

01-03-2005, 07:55 PM

Bob, yes, he is Marion's brother. Mary is still in the ministry of course and she is a fine example of a beautiful and wonderful Christian woman. Yes, we know that you live in the same town of Lee as they do. We do NOT get into ANY disagreements of any sort with her concerning TBS/GGWO. Actually, we don't hardly ever talk about the ministry other than to mention different people that we still care about who are still in the ministry in regards to how they're doing and such.

It's still great after all these years to visit the Berkshires as it's so very beautiful there. We made so many excellent memories in those three short years that we lived there. Marion and I, along with my two girls, make a couple of trips a year to the Berkshires. We love going to Tanglewood for the 4th of July celebration almost every year. We live in a small coastal town in southern Maine and we're extremely content here as well cuz we love the ocean so much.

Tom and Carlene Toole are VERY good friends of ours and they live in the same town as you. Actually, they (and their family of course) just spent Christmas with us here in Maine and we ALL have a great time together.

Have you found a good church in the area since leaving TBS/GG when John Gardner left as the Pastor in the Lee church? You left when the church split, right?!?

God bless you Bob, and I sincerly hope that ALL is going well for you and Mary and your family.

anon_for_ever (anon_for_ever)

01-03-2005, 08:53 PM

I'm surprised to hear that p Stevens did preach this Sunday. Pastor Schaller says openly that pr Stevens is very sick and has Alzheimers disease. He honors his life work very much. We all prayed for pr Stevens during the New Year's celebration.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

01-03-2005, 10:28 PM

Tom openly says Carl has Alzheimer's Disease?

Does Carl know this?

So who has the reins? Tom?

anon_for_ever (anon_for_ever)

01-03-2005, 10:42 PM

I just want to clarify that this happened in Finland.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

01-03-2005, 10:56 PM

Oh...I see. So Tom made those remarks in Finland, not in Baltimore. I see. Thank you for clarifying that.

Is Tom...Pastor Schaller... still as popular in Finland as he always has been? I was in bible school with quite a few of the Finns in the 1980's before the school moved to Baltimore.

I grew up in Maine near where Pastor Stevens originally comes from and there were many Finns there...Poulvinens, Koskelas, Kuvijas, Pulkinens and so many more. Lovely people.

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on January 03, 2005)

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

01-04-2005, 12:27 AM

Cape Cod Joe; Mary is someone who had a very profound impact on my life during my worst time spiritually (1991-2), though she probably never knew. It was through her singing and songleading. She is someone I will always cherish. She's always been friendly whenever I've seen her. I see both Tom and Carlene at trimes, usually at the Herrings. I've been attending an Assemblies of God church in Great Barrington regularly for several years, in addition to being involved with Bob and LuAnn in fellowships at their house and services they've done at a local bar (sans alcohol) and in a church out in Otis. They recently spent three weeks in Kenya, and things are stirred up in a lot of directions here. Several African pastors from countries such as Kenya, Uganda and the Sudan have been visiting and speaking in different places around the county. A lot of people have prophesied 'revival' for the Berkshires. The major thing I'm looking for is for intercessors from different churches and denominations to gather without agendas, and just seek God. My expectations are from Him, not organizations or people with reputations. More of a grass roots approach.

Give my love to Marion, and Gerry and Mary. God bless you in extraordinary ways and expand your horizons with His Spirit's touch.

nonotone (nonotone)

01-04-2005, 02:25 AM

anon_for_ever,

Were you at the New Years' Conference in Finland?

Brian Bowman

maria_t (maria_t)

01-04-2005, 03:15 AM

anon_for_ever:

The "story" going around that Pastor has Alzheimers is sheer baloney. What actually is "wrong" with him is that he has drug induced dementia from the drugs he has abused. His liver has a high toxicity level right now and because he refuses to get help, it will continue to get progressively worse. He could have a "touch" of Alzheimer's, but that is the damage control statement that is going around to justify the assinine things he is saying from the pulpit.

If he were to get "help" that he desperately needs, drug induced dementia in the early stages can be reversed. He would have to go "cold turkey" off his drugs and from what I am understanding HE WON'T do it. Therefore he is his own worst enemy. As a nurse I can tell you I have no respect for someone who won't get help for that kind of addictive problem, especially when "help" and "intervention" can turn it around. He's using it as a cop-out. The elders are milking the situation and using it as damage control to manipulate the body into feeling sorry for him, just like your post conveyed that same sentiment to me.

Don't be fooled by what Tom Schaller tells you. That man lies for Carl Stevens even when he knows the truth, he has said that he will lie and cover for him, because CHS is right and he will do ALL he can do to protect his good name.

Maria

i_feast_on__evil (i_feast_on__evil)

01-04-2005, 05:45 AM

I'll tell you what a drug problem is... It's 'Maria fatass T' posting bull**** 179 times on factnet or whatever they call themselves. Should be called falsenet. Get out of this crap, repent, and do something with your life.

chuckleshahaha (chuckleshahaha)

01-04-2005, 05:51 AM

Maria T you sound very bitter and seem to have an ax to grind. For a person that in other posts appears to love God you seem to be leading an attack against a person that God created.

Or perhaps you feel like God can't handle matters without your help. I feel sorry for you and I don't even know you.

Reading posts here really reveals the heart of a person with a personal agenda and you appear to have just that.

maria_t (maria_t)

01-04-2005, 06:04 AM

Dear "Chuckleshahaha" you don't know me, I have no personal agenda here whatsoever. Truth hurts ya, doesn't it. We all felt that way hearing it for the first time. If anybody loved Pastor Stevens it was me. The love hasn't changed, only the truth of who he is has most certainly changed. He's lied and manipulated people for a long time. Sad to say, he's got you sucked right in there. Go ahead and make your accusations from your father the devil. I have no ax to grind. The only "personal agenda" I have is in wanting to see that man repent of 35 years of abuse done to people in the body, and then for him to step down and resign, and get help for his drug addiction.

And the elders that lie for him and have lied for him all these years are far more accountable than he is. So go ahead and flame my posts, and you and your friend (I_feast_on_evil) can go join those whom the Lord will be soon chastening.
He won't be mocked. Judgement is coming down on GGWO. On ALL the leaders...Carl Stevens, Steve Stevens, Dan Lewis, Michael Marr, Scott Robinson, Tom Schaller, Steve Scibelli, Roger Stenger, Guy Duff, John Cappello, David Duff...all of you think you have nothing to hide before the Lord???? God said He won't be mocked.

Glad to see my posts pluck some nerves, "chuckybaby!!" No need to feel sorry for me. Feel sorry for your leaders!! Its them that has a "personal" agenda -- to HAIL KING CARL till he takes his last breath.

Maybe you will learn to worship the real "KING"..Jesus Christ instead of having your vertical through Carl Stevens.

Maria

chuckleshahaha (chuckleshahaha)

01-04-2005, 06:12 AM

dear Fyi I don't go to a GG church and was never in Baltimore. A friend of mine is in a GG church in Florida and told me about this place.

So I don't really have any idea who those people are. I only know what I sense from reading your various posts ranging from experiencing God through prayer to bitterness in your own heart.

And I am not attacking you just making a statement. But I will tell you this if I were not already a Christian I would never want to become one if you were what I would become.

(Message edited by chuckleshahaha on January 04, 2005)

maria_t (maria_t)

01-04-2005, 06:29 AM

And, FYI, "chuckybaby" you don't know me and I don't have defend myself to you in any way. Besides the fact that you are a liar, your IP number comes up Verizon DSL within the Baltimore-Washington-Richmond area. So, now that we know you are a liar, carry on!!

Look at my IP number, the first 2 numbers are identical which means you are a local poster.

I have no bitterness in my heart. Its you that has a critical and judgemental spirit. Go worship your King (Carl) and spare us from any further lies you tell.

Don't think we don't know who you are either.
LOL Your IP number gave you up.

Have a good one...and remember...you lie...you fry....make sure you grab good old Carl's hand on the way DOWN...he taught you well...and you thought I was the fool...duh!!!!!!!

By the way, I don't apologize for posting the truth. If you had at least half a brain that could discern anything you would note the compassion in my heart that I feel for the leaders, and the sorrow too that none of you can see whats right before your very eyes, and that you would compromise your relationship with the Lord (if you have one) for the sake of lying to preserve your position.

Thank you for being my judge and jury, you took on any punishment I could have had coming if you were right in saying I am bitter, because I'm not. Go pick on someone else you foolish little boy with nothing better to do!

chuckleshahaha (chuckleshahaha)

01-04-2005, 06:38 AM

I didn't say I wasn't from the east coast. I said I don't go to a GG church, I have a friend that goes to a GG church in Florida. I didnt lie about anything. How do you perceive that?

anon_for_ever (anon_for_ever)

01-04-2005, 08:33 AM

Nonotone,
Yes I was at the New Year's conference in Finland and I saw that you were there, too! I didn't have a chance to talk to you because you left so early. I would have said that I've enjoyed your postings here. I really hope that things will (with the help of God and in his timing) unravel soon so that we can continue our lives normally.

nonotone (nonotone)

01-05-2005, 01:23 AM

anon_for_ever,

Let's talk now: nonotone@mac.com

Brian Bowman

i_expose_you (i_expose_you)

01-05-2005, 04:19 AM

Maria roflmaooo You Go Girl!!! Where on Gods Great Earth did they even find a flunky to even post pro-greater grace? Sounds like a disgruntled puppet who didnt get his strings yanked enough.

british_sponge_bob (british_sponge_bob)

01-06-2005, 08:14 AM

Way to go Maria!! You scared off that other nasty SOB posting on here. Calling them "chuckybaby" you have more nerve than I gave you credit for. Posting the IP was a good one too. Showed the liar for what he/she was. You plucked a few nerves girlfriend for speaking the truth about Tom Schaller. He's a liar from the good old days, and he would protect CHS at any cost, even knowing that he is lying still about his son Paul. What you posted was the truth and that poster obviously didn't want to face it. Or perhaps its Schaller himself using the good old GGWO slander tactics to discredit you. Don't give up Maria, you keep posting the truth like you have from the start. I hope you keep staying on here posting. Its nice and refreshing to have someone who wants to do what is right before God post, rather than those who have nothing better to do than to tear others apart. I miss reading Jeannie's posts too. You both know exactly what is up in addition to CHS's number.

I admire Paul's courage to break away and start a new work. That took humility, a character trait he didn't learn from his old man now, did he.
And, Over-it, don't let the bullies stop you from sharing your heart. You're a sweetheart of a girl. Its obvious that you love Pastor Paul and are standing in the gap for him. I love him too. Still haven't yet gone up to the new church there in Abredean. I'll be checking out the wedding this Saturday, heard my buddies (Pastor Reed and Pastor Kelly) are part of the wedding. Cool. Does anyone know if CHS is going? This should be rather interesting.

BG

british_sponge_bob (british_sponge_bob)

01-06-2005, 08:46 AM

This post is addressed to RJ. I must have missed this post when I last perused the threads. Here goes:

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)
Advanced Member
Username: rjfernalld

Post Number: 532
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 151.203.186.99

Rating:
Votes: 12 (Vote!)
Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 10:58 am:

----------------------------------------------
Ladies and Gentlemen

All students of TBS/SSB GGWO MBS&S are not taught healthy doctrines. You are dealing with false and destructive teachings, and students who are ordained by this cult are NOT, I repeat NOT healthy pastors due to the teaching NOT their calling.

The level of denial that we all were indoctrinated by this mind control cult is disturbing. I have had occasion to speak with men who were educated at TBS and MBC&S and have left the ministry. The were all in agreement on this fact, that the teaching was faulty, the ordination was a piece of paper that meant nothing. They either left the pastor position or they went to other schools to be properly educated.

Being called to pastor is NOT the same thing as pastoring with illegitimate and destructive false doctrines. I never questioned a call...but if you are not teaching sound doctrine because you are spouting Carl's lies, I do not in anyway see that you are a legitimate qualified pastor, I don't care who you are or think you are.

I'll take it one step further, for Maria's sake...I in no way believe that Paul Stevens belongs in a pulpit. I would further suggest that those attending his church are in everyway leaving themselves open to false teaching. Why? Because though called, Paul has NEVER recieved anything except Carl's brand of teaching. Paul cannot have completely rid himself of such in such a short amount of time and is not qualified to preach.

I would think that any person, unless they prefer denial and want more pain, would open themselves up to any one who has only Carl's teachings to offer. Paul needs reeducation as does every single person now pastoring using Carl's threology.

The depth of indoctrination is something that is serious, and must be addressed. Just because you don't "feel" you were indoctrinatd with these lies, doesn't mean that you weren't.

Wake up. The early church DID have teachers Maria. They has Paul, Peter, Stephen etc. These people were the real thing. Carl is NOT.

I am beginning to finally understand Jim's exasperation. No matter how many times this subject is brought up, discussed and shown to be truthful, people doze off and slide right back into the mire.

The false teachings of SSB and MBC&S are apparent, the truth is what it is. If any choose to live continuously in the lies they were indoctrinated with no one can stop them I suppose.

I guess you really can lead a horse to water but not make him drink. Enjoy being parched, I guess.

*sigh*

Come on, folks. I am ready for the flame party.

^^^
My first issue with your post is this statement that you made in particular: "I in no way believe that Paul Stevens belongs in a pulpit. I would further suggest that those attending his church are in everyway leaving themselves open to false teaching. Why? Because though called, Paul has NEVER recieved anything except Carl's brand of teaching. Paul cannot have completely rid himself of such in such a short amount of time and is not qualified to preach.


Well, the lady preacher is now calling the shots on here again, isn't she. So, miss know-it-all since you "claim" to have the inside info in regards to Paul Stevens, and said on other threads repeatedly have "talked" with Paul via email, you certainly missed posting some major facts like the man has gone to ANOTHER non GGWO/TBS bible college down south, and has graduated from that college and is now pursuing his masters degree. So who the freaking hell are you RJ to state whether someone is "apt to teach" ??? Just because he doesn't have RJ's list of preaching/pastoral "qualifications" or Jim's by his post above too doesn't mean shinola to me babe. The man doesn't have to prove anything to me to see whether or not he is being used by God. I wouldn't touch that for anything, its not my place and certainly not yours.

And, certainly not by your hypocritical standards. Didn't you learn anything getting "ordained" 15 years ago? I highly doubt it, to me you are nothing more of a CHS clone. You abuse people on here forcing your opinions down their throats till they gag. Well you may gag some and get them to back down or cow tow to your opinion, RJ, but not me, it doesn't work for me.

Holed up in your house, a self-ordained WOMAN pastor which we ALL know is NOT scriptural, you spout your mouth off on here all day long and all night long. Haven't you got anything else to do Roberta? When do you find time to pray like you claim these wonderful prayers for people you favor here on Factnet? When do you ever shut the hell up long enough to even hear the voice of God? How dare you think of yourself as equal with God that you deem who is worthy of a pastoral call or a call to preach? You are a freaking hypocrite!! All you enjoy doing is fighting on here to push your opinion down everybody's throat. You have something to say about every single thing discussed on Factnet. And you don't shut up like you were cautioned to. You think people respect your opinions? Do you know how much you are made fun of behind the scenes? Do you want to see emails people have sent back to me telling me how crazy you make them, that they wish you would break your wrist/fingers so you can't post your degrading self glorifying posts???

There are few that stick up for you RJ. I watched this forum for a long time before I spoke up. You delight not in the Lord, but in your flesh. Try reversing that Roberta. You mocked people for taking time off from Factnet because of their sensing an atmosphere (and I quote Jeannie) that is "chilling". Well it is somewhat chilling on here and the person that has it the most surrounding them is YOU. I've watched you attack and berate people. Tell me where that is godly. People are afraid to post on here now. Want to know why RJ?? They're afraid of your mouth which runs non stop. When all you do is peck, peck, and peck some more, till you have pecked the heck out of people you cause them to retreat and give up.

Since you seem to enjoy flaming people on here and think you are still the queen of Factnet, I won't post my email addy for you to take this off of the forum. Many here want YOU to take yourself off the forum and spend some time with the Christ you say you know but your fruit proves otherwise.

How's that for being flamed, RJ?

You need to leave Paul Stevens alone. You have no idea what goes on at the new church and no clue as to how God is working there. Life just isn't how you view it RJ. Those people want to move on. Leave them alone and let them hear from God themselves. If they are wrong, God will show them. Same thing with Paul. Give the man chance to grow. He's changing like we all are supposed to be doing daily in the Lord.

You feel exasperated like Jim does?

You exasperate the hell out of people.
Good night.

BG