Eldersb Declaration

[veritas (veritas)]

Sunday AM Service December 12, 2004
Elder Roger Stenger speaking

After last Sunday’s meeting, we were very, very touched by the service last Sunday morning, all of us. So we had an elders meeting. We all unanimously agreed that we wanted to keep the fire going. We just said that we wanted to do something somehow to express that same heart expressed last Sunday and we thought we would like to make a declaration of a statement to the body together collectively, unanimously, eight unanimous votes to be here before you today to do this. (Talk of Dr. Lewis in hospital and Pastor Schibelli not being able to attend). (Applause, laughter) Mentioned a signed copy would be made available.

December 12, 2004 Elders Declaration

The elders…by the way, we did this in such a spirit of joy together…(Laughter) met on Wednesday, Dec. 8, 2004 for two hours and rejoiced in the visitation of God during last Sunday morning’s service. Motivated by a desire to continue in the same sense of love and brokenness demonstrated by the Holy Spirit that morning, we prepared the following statement.

We all have been greatly blessed throughout these many years by the faithful ministry of a man truly called by God…our pastor Carl H. Stevens. ( Extended standing ovation). We the elders desire to be faithful as well in the position entrusted to us by you, our body. We have all watched in awe as the vision imparted to Pastor Stevens unfolded over time and has been fulfilled by a group of weak, and lowly individuals such as we are. For this reason and for many others this great ministry with its rich legacy is worthy of our unswerving commitment….

Various events that have transpired over many months have presented many challenges to us as a ministry. Many body members have asked questions of the elders ranging from the functioning of our church government to Pastor’s health, to the establishment of a church in Aberdeen, to accusations of mishandling of particular situations in the church and to slanderous evil reports. Most decidedly we are not here before you today to present the shopping list of sins of any of our brothers or sisters in Christ. Furthermore, please understand with us that we have no desire as a ministry to cover sin or to manipulate this body in any way. As is always the case with human nature, we are often confronted with our own sins or with the sins of another that is close to us. Additionally, these sins are not always, excuse me, these situations are not always straightforward but on the contrary, very complex. Elements of human nature, sin, misunderstanding, personality conflicts, perceptions, differences of opinion, presumptions, hurtful words, sentimentality, and even a commitment of love can add to the complexity. We are very thankful that we did not lose Pastor Stevens to his battle with his illness. (Applause) And we continue to pray for his longevity and strengthening of his health. We make no apology for Pastor Stevens’s health. He is in his mid-seventies and we feel that that should be self-explanatory. (Applause) The depth of our thankfulness for all he has given to this church exceeds any lack of patience with regard to his debilitating illness. (Extended applause)

One of the concerns that has been brought to our attention is the question of integrity in the area of finances with regards to a settlement paid for compensation in a legal matter because of an indiscretion and failure of a staff member of the church. As elders of this church we state to you affirmatively that no illegal action was taken by your church or by your board of trustees. We also affirm that the church books are open for your examination because, after all, this is your church. We also stand ready to respond to your questions about this matter.

Another area is the question of the pulpits and future leadership of the ministry. Once again we thank you all for your continued patience and believe, as was the case Sunday morning, that God will anoint the various men filling any gap as we humble ourselves before God. (Applause)

The third area that needs to be addressed is the departure of various ones from the Baltimore church. Our prayers are genuinely with each and every one that has been led by God to a different place while at times it may hurt very much to part with someone you have walked with for many years. We understand that this is a part of the reality of the ministry of a local church, a local body. There are many other matters that could be addressed and we are sure other questions are out there that need answers.

The purpose of this statement is simply to reassure you that we as elders sincerely want only the best for this church and that we have a plan to work through all of the various issues. We come to you today as one board fully in agreement of hearts that you, our body, deserve transparency, honesty and our commitment to make this church the best that it can be. We apologize from the bottom of our hearts with regard to the above mentioned issues if in any way we have sinned, acted apart from the Bible, been a false covering or been insensitive to the needs of this precious congregation. We ask your forgiveness for any unwilling lack of integrity or any appearance thereof. Furthermore we repent for any lack of oneness or spirit of division that may have been entertained through these long months as a result of our frail human frames. We acknowledge misuse of words that can sometimes be so hurtful and purpose that our tongues will be used to edify.

Please help us to live in the spirit of this statement. If you have any questions, please come to us. We’ll do our best to be forthright with you. The humble confession of our mistakes in no way negates our awareness of Satan’s sophisticated onslaught against our ministry. We know that he would like to stop this worldwide work of God in any way he can.

Finally, we are ever grateful to you, the congregation, the affiliate ministries, to the faithful pastors who have stood the gap, to those who have been faithful prayer warriors, teachers in the bible college and day school, music ministry, our tremendous youth ministry and all the faithful from various departments, all of whom have fanned the flame for an anticipated revival.

The Lord spoke to us very deeply Sunday morning through the manifestation of His Holiness with a little help from Pastor Hadley. (Laughter and applause) That is what Greater Grace Church is all about. This is our church, our family. Let’s stay put together…let’s be right with God together. Let’s build a more powerful ministry then ever before. And most of all, let’s give all the glory, praise and honor to Jesus Christ that He deserves. (Applause)

Veritas

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Veritas,

Could you give your respected opinion of the spirit behind the words you heard from these elders?

[veritas (veritas)]

Yes.

[veritas (veritas)]

These words were spoken from another spirit, not the Holy Spirit. They are lies from the father of lies...the devil. God does not lie.

Veritas

[alex (alex)]

<font color="ff0000">http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif"DAMM"-AGE CONTROL!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif</font>

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I agree with veritas. It was disgusting.

And yes, Doris...it is spiritual rape. No question.

[yogi (yogi)]

Ladies, you are SO absolutely correct about this farce! Who said women aren't discrening anyway?
Oh, that's right, Carl Stevens did! He's a narrow-minded old cout!

Yogi

[veritas (veritas)]

Elders, you think you’re playing games with people but you’re playing games with God. By games I mean this mockery of repentance that you put forth. All of you have revealed your hearts today. There wasn’t a hint of brokenness, no remorse. Nothing. You tried to cash in on the Holy Spirit showing up like last week but He didn’t because true repentance wasn’t in your hearts. You don't know what spirit you're of. He’s given you a chance to really repent, to bring these evil deeds, these things you’ve hidden in darkness into the light but you didn’t take the opportunity.

Pastor Hogarth:

Is this the kind of repentance you were looking for? Is this what you told your church last Sunday? I heard that it was. Did you fly down to Baltimore last week to confront the elders or plan with them how to present this charade?

Pastor Dave Drago:

Can’t you seeing that they are using you to lend credibility to themselves? They’re using you as they used Neil Carrick, with no intention of changing. It’s only been words since the very beginning.

Pastor Marr:

Did you draft the religious double-talk? It didn’t make sense, any of it. It was the best example of a COA letter I ever saw, and I’ve seen a few. Heads---Carl and Company wins; Tails---everyone else loses. The court may recognize only the word “settlement” but, in this case, it was a payoff. Maybe not illegal but certainly immoral. And you know it. This is THE CHURCH were talking about, not some damned courtroom drama. It belongs to Jesus Christ, not Carl Stevens or you elders.

Veritas

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Well, I discern the heavy-handed editting of a lawyer. Everything alluded to, nothing admitted.

I doubt there are any lies here, just not the whole truth.

I really don't think that you can tell from the words what is going to happen or not happen.

If I were still there, I'd want to know, "What's the plan?" They said they have one, what is it?

[minutus (minutus)]

It's like an old friend used to say way back in the "Dave's not here" days: The story you've just seen is true - the minds were altered to protect the guilty.

[yogi (yogi)]

B-I-N-G-O ya'll...by jove you've HIT THE NAIL ON THE <font size="+2">HEAD!</font>} Just wish it were Carl Stevens head instead!

Yogi

[yogi (yogi)]

These "elders" must think the people attending their "church" are a bunch of pea brains! If I were still attending this cult I'd be VERY insulted by this double talking nonsense!

Yogi

[jack_leonard (jack_leonard)]

This is what we think about the elders’ statement.

First, we think we should encourage ourselves that this is a small step forward and not backward. Up until now, there has not been any official admission of internal problems.

Secondly, the elders make it clear that this is not the end of the work, but only the beginning. They said, “We have a plan to work through all of the various issues.” Let’s hope so.

That said, the elders could have been less disingenuous. The declared purpose of the statement was not to repent, but to “reassure” the congregation (read “damage control”). The admission of personal responsibility was missing. For example, they said, “We apologize…if in any way we have sinned.” Again, they said, “We ask your forgiveness for any unwilling lack of integrity or any appearance thereof.” They might just as well have said, “We’re not aware of any sin, but you seem to think there is sin, so we apologize.” This is insulting. The closest they get to true repentance is this: “We repent for any lack of oneness or spirit of division that may have been entertained….” The most serious sin they can think of is speaking against the ministry. Ouch.

This is not Jesus. This is stalling and dissimulation. One has the feeling that the elders are carefully circling the wagons for a long siege. We should be showing our brothers and sisters how to handle sin in the body of Christ. This is not the way. We would like to show the amazing power of the grace of God to heal, reconcile, and restore, but God gives grace to the humble, not the self-preserving. The devil would be so disarmed if the elders would simply hold a public meeting, answer public questions, and own up to their own responsibility for this mess.

A little history. We can think of two times when the church leaders were inescapably confronted with the truth and carefully edged up to a confession of fault. In 1981, they agreed in principal to the CRI report and promised to make changes. Nothing changed and so some leaders left the church. Again, during the bankruptcy trial in 1987, some leaders were more thoughtful and ready to listen. However, once the church stance solidified into “Hallelujah; we are being persecuted!” there was another split and leaders walking away. We are at this stage again, but this is different because Carl Stevens has less control. The responsibility is now on the shoulders of the elders to be God's men and do what is right.

What should we expect? “Transparency” and “honesty” is what they promised. They said, “Please help us live in the spirit of this statement.” We can do that. And again, “If you have any questions, please come to us.” Well, lets bring our questions. Here’s the first one: if there is really “a plan to work through all these issues,” can we see it?
Jack and Lee Leonard

[isabella (isabella)]

Thanks Lee and Jack...I do remember you, although I'm sure you don't know me. I rambled around in TBS...traveling to the different events,.... to Lenox, to Pastor Dorsey's church, to that Spring thing..lobster-thing in Maine..and that one time when Steven's visited the church in Roslindale...(listening to the great, enthusiastic choir). I appreciate your input here. It was always my question: "How come this guy (you, Jack) is here?" I remember you, too, Lee. You probably don't look anything like I remember (neither do I look the same way I looked 19 years ago), but I picture both of you as I remember you, way back then, before we knew what we know now.

[yogi (yogi)]

Thank you Jeannie for starting this forum. Thank you Jack, Lee and all you TBS veterans for being here for the GGWO walking wounded during ANOTHER time of transition from ONE MORE of Carl Stevens' "blown apart ministries"! Yours and all sharing on this forum's input has been, and is, greatly valued and appreciated by this crazy bear!

Yogi

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

I don't see any repentence of sin in that statement. I see another cover up. I just don't get it. When is this going to end? I am putting this behind me and moving on. I am sorry that the "transparency" in GG is not transparent.

Since I am no longer going there and they feel no responsibility to those of us who left; as it is and was and will be all is in God's hands.

Sin is covered up and lasciviousness and legalism continue to walk together. I just pray for God to bring me into a right fellowship in Florida.

God bless you all.

[chris (chris)]

I attended the morning service yesterday at GGWO, the first time I'd been there since leaving over 2 years ago. I wanted to hear what the elders had to say and to discern if the presence of the Holy Spirit was there and to what degree.

I sensed no brokenness, no remorse, no humility, no spirit of reconciliation. Quite the opposite; I sensed of unity of men living in their fallen nature playing a religious game, deceiving even themselves in the depth of it.

These men have been schooled in religious conversation and they are very good at it. If a person is not discerning of the Spirit he/she could easily be drawn in to be patient according to their timetable, thinking it was a godly thing to do, or to meet and discuss the issues and hope for reconciliation when their only thoughts of reconciliation are to their own agenda. Each day more people are being hurt and the elders are procrastinating, playing church,and lying by telling half truths and purposely misleading God's people. These problems cannot be reconciled until these men will listen to and submit to the Holy Spirit in their own lives, not just give mental assent.

We are told as Christians to "test" the spirits. We cannot test accurately by listening to words only. I, myself, have been led to draw closer to the Lord than ever before as we enter further into this spiritual warefare. We are unequipped if we are not continually walking in the spirit and being filled with the spirit and discernment.

The following from William Law says what I believe to be the state of GGWO today. " Scripture speaks of the natural man to whom the things of God are mere foolishness. But though the worldly-minded man cannot know the things of God, yet he can know their names, and learn to say that which the saints have spoken about them. He can make profession of them, be eloquent in their praise and set them forth in such a desirable view as shall make them quite agreeable to the children of worldly wisdom. This natural man, having gotten into the church, and taken church power, has turned the things of God into the things of this world. Had this man been kept out of the church, she would have kept her first purity to this day; for the fallen state is nothing else than her fall into the hands of the natural man of this world."

(Message edited by Chris on December 13, 2004)

[mike_byrne (mike_byrne)]

I'm so sorry that I stayed home from church to watch that circus at Moravia Park Drive yesterday. So to all the precious elders at GGWO and Carl H. Stevens I give you the following lyrics from Derek Webb.

"I can always tell a liar,
And I always know a thief,
I know them like my family,
Because brother I'm the chief,
I'm a dangerous crusader,
Because I NEED TO TELL THE TRUTH,
So I'm turning over tables,
In my own living room,
Then I might nail indictments up,
On every door in town,
Cause it's not right or safe to let your conscience down."

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Mikey,

But your infectious humor made "the show" easier to watch for Dad and I. Thanks for being there.

Great lyrics by Derek, is that a Cademon's Call song?

[lee (lee)]

Not only were the elders speaking from a worldly point of view, they spoke according to the worlds laws......such a shame to ignore God's law in favor of advice from their lawyer.

I can't help but think that through the efforts of those of us here on factnet, that they've been given enough rope to hang themselves.

I have repeatedly wondered if some of them have lost the ability to repent. I know this is a serious charge. It frightens me to even write this but it seems so much more than an entangled web of fishing line to me. I had the sense yesterday watching them that there is something hardcore and unchangeable going on.

Someone, please correct me......help me to see something redeemable.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Chris,

I trust your discernment skills, you consistently have walked in the Spirit. Your account of actually being there and the spirit that was pervading within the building along with the words said gave us a whole picture. This is a defining moment and the elders gave it to us unknowingly. Since their declaration my spirit has been released. God will move IN SPITE OF THEM. They choose not to be a part of true repentance and restoration then God will find another way.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

You are right Lee, it is a fishing line with a whole heck of a lot of principalities and powers attached. Lives hang in the balance, only God can entangle this mess. He will use His people to do it. It is not per chance we are all here. It was not per chance that Jim Faucett beat the drum of correct doctrine or you have sacrificed your time to continually point out how the present connects to TBS's past. It is not per chance Dave Drago has spent countless hours on the phone with past and present leaders to bring about true repentance. Or Roberta has poured out her heart for the sake of the children. The list goes on and on. The elders may have a "legion" attached to them but we are many and God is not done yet(can you hear the beat of my little drum..lol).

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

OH... I PRAY you are right, Jeannie! I thought about calling Roger just to simply ask..."what did you think that statement would do? Rog, did you really think that candy coated thing would reach out and fix ANYTHING?? Did you think it would help ME? Undo all the damage it has caused? YOU said a whole lot of NOTHING?" Get Schallar up there! Let HIM tell me how sorry he is for all the destruction HE has caused. Let Shibelli get up there and plead for my forgiveness for the pure crap he spouted out recently at a "rap"... (rap my rear end) I hope YOU are right, Jeannie, that GOD and GOD alone WILL make it happen. I just don't see HIM getting any help from any of these "men."

[yogi (yogi)]

Roger Stenger may as well have been reading a grocery list: eggs, milk, bread...

I found it VERY interesting that a flunky of Shaller's was put up front instead of one of the more "unpopular personalities" which have been discussed to date here at Factnet.

bells, please call good ol "Rog" and ask him your questions; they are RIGHT ON THE MARK!

Yogi

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Veritas:
I deeply appreciate your concern for me. I am fine and give God the glory in my life and the life of others. I find strength and comfort my truthful Latin friend in the following thoughts:

Sola scriptura
Sola gratia
Sola fide
Soli Deo glorio

16 non enim erubesco evangelium virtus enim Dei est in salutem omni credenti Iudaeo primum et Graeco
17 iustitia enim Dei in eo revelatur ex fide in fidem sicut scriptum est iustus autem ex fide vivit

20 Deus autem pacis conteret Satanan sub pedibus vestris velociter gratia Domini nostri Iesu Christi vobiscum...

27 solo sapienti Deo per Iesum Christum cui honor in saecula saeculorum amen

For Him,
Dave

[lee (lee)]

No comment in English about the Elder's declaration? Are you satisfied? Is it over for you?

This isn't a challenge. You've been vocal and an active participant. I'm just wondering how it effected you. I'm distraught over men's souls. It has unsettled me. What I find disturbing is that I'm waking up to the fact that these men have chosen something really horrible for themselves. Was Hogarth happy with it?

[jeannie (jeannie)]

I was just going to post the same thing Lee. Really.. what did Pastor Wayne think, Dave? What do you think? You have posted on his behalf, this is important. You have spoken righteously here Dave, we want to know what you are thinking about yesterday's declaration.. from your heart.

[veritas (veritas)]

Pastor Dave:

Sir, I know you are fine; Rangers are survivors. My concern extends much wider though...to the sheep in and out of the fold at GGWO. You are an established and trusted voice on FACTNet. The sheep are looking to you for discernment and leadership. You assumed a great responsibility when you chose to be a spokesman for Wayne Hogarth. I do acknowledge your heart and effort.

I stand firm...the elders did NOT put steel on target, sir; they're still playing with the registration round.

Respectfully,

Veritas
Servabo Fidem

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Thank you all for your kind words of encouragement. I will answer all your questions...I am still thinking and praying and talking to those involved. I tend to be impetuous, and I have learned the painful lesson of speaking too rashly. Please be patient with me. I have not formed my final opinion or my final analysis. I am deeply concerned for the sheep and the cause of Christ. My opinion is just one of many. I am learning to seek understanding before being understood. I have asked myself three questions:

If I were hurt by GGWO what would I desire?

If I were an elder how would I handle this situation?

If I can help all concerned, what should my objectives and end-state be?

My intent since the beginning of my involvement has been to encourage those who are hurt to:

1. Understand what happened.

2. Begin to move towards closure

3. If they are struggling with God, encourage them to follow Christ, even though the leadership hurt them.

My intent since the beginning of my involvement has been to encourage the elders by:

1. Pointing out sin and encouraging repentance and restoration.

2. Encouraging reconciliation and restitution wherever possible.

3. Challenging them to re-evaluate and discard the unhealthy and abusive doctrines that divide, hurt and confuse the sheep.

My intent since the beginning of my involvement has been to devise a suitable, feasible, reasonable plan that will achieve these objectives. This, is the most challenging aspect.

For Him,
Dave

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

A few cursory thoughts…What truly happened?

1. The elders informed/reassured the congregation that changes, transitions and improvements are forthcoming. They informed the church they have a plan. But, they did not disclose it.

“The purpose of this statement is simply to reassure you that we as elders sincerely want only the best for this church and that we have a plan to work through all of the various issues.”

2. The elders overdid the adulation and thankfulness for one man (tactical error occurring over the past 40 years…no surprise there).

“We all have been greatly blessed throughout these many years by the faithful ministry of a man truly called by God…our pastor Carl H. Stevens. (Extended standing ovation). … We have all watched in awe as the vision imparted to Pastor Stevens unfolded over time and has been fulfilled by a group of weak, and lowly individuals such as we are. For this reason and for many others this great ministry with its rich legacy is worthy of our unswerving commitment….”

3. The elders let the church know that there will be a change in the leadership forthcoming:

“We all have been greatly blessed throughout these many years by the faithful ministry of a man truly called by God…our pastor Carl H. Stevens. ( Extended standing ovation). We the elders desire to be faithful as well in the position entrusted to us by you, our body… Another area is the question of the pulpits and future leadership of the ministry. Once again we thank you all for your continued patience and believe, as was the case Sunday morning, that God will anoint the various men filling any gap as we humble ourselves before God. (Applause)”

4. The elders informed the church in a very wordy and murky fashion that there is sin and problems (long term) that they must overcome. And, they are willing to discuss these issues.

“Various events that have transpired over many months have presented many challenges to us as a ministry. Many body members have asked questions of the elders ranging from the functioning of our church government to Pastor’s health, to the establishment of a church in Aberdeen, to accusations of mishandling of particular situations in the church and to slanderous evil reports. Most decidedly we are not here before you today to present the shopping list of sins of any of our brothers or sisters in Christ. Furthermore, please understand with us that we have no desire as a ministry to cover sin or to manipulate this body in any way. As is always the case with human nature, we are often confronted with our own sins or with the sins of another that is close to us. Additionally, these sins are not always, excuse me, these situations are not always straightforward but on the contrary, very complex. Elements of human nature, sin, misunderstanding, personality conflicts, perceptions, differences of opinion, presumptions, hurtful words, sentimentality, and even a commitment of love can add to the complexity.”One of the concerns that has been brought to our attention is the question of integrity in the area of finances with regards to a settlement paid for compensation in a legal matter because of an indiscretion and failure of a staff member of the church. As elders of this church we state to you affirmatively that no illegal action was taken by your church or by your board of trustees. We also affirm that the church books are open for your examination because, after all, this is your church. We also stand ready to respond to your questions about this matter.”

5. The elders informed the congregation that there is a universal body of Christ and that ex-members have left.

“The third area that needs to be addressed is the departure of various ones from the Baltimore church. Our prayers are genuinely with each and every one that has been led by God to a different place while at times it may hurt very much to part with someone you have walked with for many years. We understand that this is a part of the reality of the ministry of a local church, a local body.”

6. The elders hinted that these ex-members may have been hurt by their anti-Christian superior prideful attitude.

“There are many other matters that could be addressed and we are sure other questions are out there that need answers.”

7. The elders informed the church that they have a closed secretive leadership team that that needs to change.

“We come to you today as one board fully in agreement of hearts that you, our body, deserve transparency, honesty and our commitment to make this church the best that it can be.”

8. The elders informed the church that they are in need of repentance.

“We apologize from the bottom of our hearts with regard to the above mentioned issues if in any way we have sinned, acted apart from the Bible, been a false covering or been insensitive to the needs of this precious congregation. We ask your forgiveness for any unwilling lack of integrity or any appearance thereof.

9. The elders informed the church that they repent for their divisive spirit and demeanor.

“Furthermore we repent for any lack of oneness or spirit of division that may have been entertained through these long months as a result of our frail human frames. We acknowledge misuse of words that can sometimes be so hurtful and purpose that our tongues will be used to edify.”

10. The elders informed the church that the leadership needs to be accountable.

“Please help us to live in the spirit of this statement. If you have any questions, please come to us. We’ll do our best to be forthright with you.”

11. The elders informed the church that Satan attacks local churches. (We all know Satan attacks...they just do not realize that as a group of leaders they have been used by him to attack others.)

“The humble confession of our mistakes in no way negates our awareness of Satan’s sophisticated onslaught against our ministry. We know that he would like to stop this worldwide work of God in any way he can.”

12. The elders asked people not to leave and that the local church is in need of revival. Currently, the implication of this admission is that they are not in a revival.

“Finally, we are ever grateful to you, the congregation, the affiliate ministries, to the faithful pastors who have stood the gap, to those who have been faithful prayer warriors, teachers in the bible college and day school, music ministry, our tremendous youth ministry and all the faithful from various departments, all of whom have fanned the flame for an anticipated revival.”

13. The elders admitted they need to give God the glory and not man.

“And most of all, let’s give all the glory, praise and honor to Jesus Christ that He deserves. (Applause)”

Conclusion:

I want them to succeed. I want them to change. I want the Kingdom of God to be blessed. I want true repentance and reconciliation toward those who have been hurt and defamed.

If my child, who had been in denial for years about sin in his life began to admit he has a problem (or at least entertain the possibility) then I would be encouraged. I would want to strengthen him to do the right thing.
I would also encourage him to see the errors of his way and continue to move towards health, wholeness and repair the relationships that his sin caused.

I would encourage him to rid himself of the philosophy that causes the sin and destructive behavior.

I would tell him I love him and he has taken a small step in the path of righteousness, but he has a long way to go.

I would tell him if I can help him in anyway I would.

I would pray for him.

I realize that time will tell.

For Him,
Dave

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Veritas,
Were you a Red-Leg?

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Don't be misled Dave. It is not that hard to admit wrongdoing and leave. You did, I did, Jack Leonard did. MANY DID. The men in power will not admit it ever, WHY? Because they would have to leave, just like the rest of us. THEY DO NOT DESERVE ONE OUNCE OF PATIENCE FROM ME. Don't forget there were many of us who walked those halls and listened to these men behind closed doors. THEY ARE NOT INNOCENT. They KNEW the course they were taking over a year ago was wrong, immoral, unbiblical AND DID IT ANYWAY. RE-READ THE CRI REPORT, THERE REMAINS NO ONE LEFT WITH INTEGRITY. WE HAVE ALL DEPARTED.

[bill_kline (bill_kline)]

In response to this declaration imagine that, it took 14 months for an apology that is still not given to Pastor Paul for thirty days suspention for something he did not do. My salvation and my appointment excepting Jesus Christ was established 6 years ago at GGWO. It was an awesome 3 days a week that we very rarely missed a family of 6 attended church and looked forward to hearing a spiritual message as we learned how to praise and worship God during song service. It's all over. It's gone, the intimacy is lacking due to the manipulation in every aspect of communication. Your either right or your wrong, no in between. Covering up, manipulating God's word to their benefit, constantly bickering and quarreling behind doors with one another to gain the authority of the church. This is the reason Pastor Paul got kicked out b/c he was next in line. When they allowed Pastor Lutz to leave the Bible College, what happened to their discernment?? When Dede Stoddard leaves to take care of her mother after devoting her entire life to the Bible College, she didn't ever get a Bear hug. They talk about Aberdeen suggesting Pastor Paul and the church is evil, I attend Aberdeen and I am saddened by the remarks that I've been told . Pastor Carl Stevens, I wish him well, he's an awesome man. I pray that the day would come at GGWO where all would realize that Jesus is by their side and would come to obeying His word and trusting in Him. I'm very saddened by the entire situation, GGWO was one of the greatest experiences of my life, meeting Jesus, it was very intimate. I apologize if I've offended anyone at GGWO. Gentleman please get organized, come to Christ and submit to the Holy Spirit for a great revival.}

[veritas (veritas)]

Dave:

"Red-leg"...sorry, unfamiliar term.

Veritas

[veritas (veritas)]

Jeannie...excellent post.

Welcome, Bill Kline. Thank you for your integrity.

Veritas

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Thank you Bill! I never met you personally but I watched and grieved how your sincere and wonderous love for Jesus Christ was manipulated in the hands of the men in power. Thank you standing for Pastor Paul during that time. Yesterday, not only was there no repentance for their evil slanderous words towards Paul but his was the ONLY failure was specifically mentioned. They continue to hold Paul out as their scapegoat, but God will not be mocked.

ps.. the letter you received last spring was from my husband out of concern for you and your family.

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

Bill, Your life is a living testimoney to GOD'S faithfulness. You've maintained amazing integrity through all of this. Thank you. We pray together that your words may be heeded.

[yogi (yogi)]

Welcome Bill! Glad to have your spirit-led and logical business mind here to share with we dissidents at FACTNet! Hope you and Margo are enjoying the new grand kids!

Yogi

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

So...is that IT, Jeannie? You are done? You are writing them off now? This repentance thing we all KNEW wasn't going to happen is what you were waiting for?

What are you doing now...are you planning to just walk away? Now? Rather than confront them as a group face to face (a couple of representatives) with a document we all endorse confronting them point by point? So...they don't do anything about it? Well, guess what? THEN you publish the damned document and show the few who may be listening or may someday listen that at least we tried?

Why did we bother to post the Elsinore letter here? The CRI Report or anything else? So others might see and find them informative...but you just want to shake off the dust, walk away, and say to hell with the others there who still cannot understand what is really happening?

I missed the boat here someplace...I thought this was something we were going to see through to an acceptable end.

Dave is NOT misled by the way...he has a spiritfilled hope for those still imprisoned by the false doctrine. God bless him.

How strange this talk of shaking off the dust...and disappointing.

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on December 13, 2004)

[yogi (yogi)]

Hey Jeannie, did your son recently marry Lorretta Dorsey-Young's daughter Heather?

Yogi

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

No one is on the attack here. I am simply trying to discover what is happening. I am not saying anyone SHOULD do anything, just trying to discern where the people are at. No one is saying Jeannie hasn't done her part, just trying to scope out the territory now that it seems to have changed.

I ask a lot of questions. That is how I find out things.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Yes he did! He married Heather Young last February. If you know Mike and Heather, then you know how much fun and laughter they bring to this family! My daughter is happily married to Jeremy Sutorius, they have three children whom I adore.

Thanks for asking Yogi!

[yogi (yogi)]

That's great Jeannie! I hope they've both escaped the clutches of the stupidity found in this ridiculous cult! Wondering if Heather and Mike are posting here? Is poor Lorretta and Heather's sister still buying into the GGWO "way of life?" I hope not!

Yogi

[brie (brie)]

This may have already been mentioned, but I noted that at the evening service, CHS stated that he had not yet read the declaration. Interesting?

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Veritas,
'Red-Leg' means Artillery branch of the Army. They used to wear red pants or red stockings to designate them, I cannot remember which.

[veritas (veritas)]

Dave:

I remember the red scarf and shoulder braid but never heard that term "red-leg" at Fort Sill or elsewhere. Don't I feel like a foolish cannon-cocker! Thank you, sir.

Veritas

[brie (brie)]

Another thought: The declaration didn't say anything about making annual financial reports available, did it?

[minutus (minutus)]

http://sill-www.army.mil/Pao/redleg_standard.htm http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Wherever Artillerymen gather, they sooner or later will be addressed by the sobriquet "Redleg." The question often arises as to the origin of the term. In spite of many fanciful stories, the truth may be found firmly planted in Army regulations.

The uniform is a vehicle through which the soldier is separated from the common man and bound to his fellow soldiers. Early uniforms served to distinguish soldiers from civilians and as a means of identifying troops from one's own unit or army. Early use of color in uniforms was based on territorial allegiance, loyalty to one's superiors or, simply, availability. By the early 19th century, each branch of the United States Army was assigned a branch or "facing" color; for the Artillery, this color was scarlet.

By 1834, the collars and cuffs of uniform jackets were trimmed in red piping surrounding two tabs of yellow lace. Officers' and NCOs' buttons were in double rows, while enlisted men wore coats with a single row of buttons. As a further distinction, officers and NCOs wore a stripe in the branch color down the outer seam of their trousers.

From "Wearing the Scarlet Stripe" FA Journal Nov-Dec 2001

Son of a Redleg

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Brie
The Declaration stated the church financial books were available for anyone to come and view them.

Maria

[sam_i_am (sam_i_am)]

Dave Drago,

Thank you for your mature Christian attitude. Your voice is very much needed- here, and at GGWO.

I guess not all Southern Baptists are bigotted, brain-dead, bombastic, back-water bumpkins.

(Please disregard last sentence if you don't get or like sarcasm.)

[yogi (yogi)]

Quote, "...We all have been greatly blessed throughout these many years by the faithful ministry of a man TRULY CALLED BY GOD...our pastor Carl H. Sevens."

Truly called by God; but what DOES God truly call him? Liar? Cheat? Charlatan? White-Washed Sepulchre?


Yogi

Sam, Your superior attitude toward others on this board stinks..."CHINGA TU MADRE CABRON!"

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"Sam, Your superior attitude toward others on this board stinks.."

I agree with you yogi.

[sam_i_am (sam_i_am)]

Ooops.
Was i supposed to have thanked you, yogi and fernalld, for your mature godly attitudes?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

No thanks necessary, Bruce. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Your unnecessary sarcasm and superior attitude aside, Bruce, there are some good and serious discussions in the works on the board at the moment. Perhaps you might join in.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

His superior attitude will get toned down a few notches when he has no more sheep to devour, Roberta.

You can't stop it now, sam_i_am. Better get your resume together, bunky. You are going to need it.

You are certainly one to talk about being Godly! The only reason you can SPELL Godly is because of the miracle of spell check.

"Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven."

You and Carl and the other GGWO hypocrites have hidden behind being "godly" enough. Try another excuse, sam. That one won't work anymore.

[yogi (yogi)]

Hey Brucie,

Did ya check out those Jorge Elderly articles I recommended? Maybe reality will begin to sink in once you've had a look!

Yogi

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Bruce,
Thank you for your kind words. Merry Christmas to you and your family.

For Him,
Dave

[sad_u_see (sad_u_see)]

Y'all have a merry Christmas...

something good is going to happen..hmmm, hmmm,

Show down coming. May the voice of the many be one and that the leadership stand in truth and the rats get flushed out. flushed out they will. It's incredible how people will live in there gifts and acheivements and not in HUMILITY. IF we have aught with our brother...lay down your gift, go to them alone. I would be blown away if that would happen. To watch Scaller laid down his life for the body instead of the cause. The cause of being top dog w/o accountability.

Dave, bruce God bless you this holiday season...Bruce Hola.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Why was it business as usual this Sunday morning in GGWO? It would seem as last week did not even occur. There no talk of continued process of repentance and restoration. It was once again another typical GG service of touting the work, the numbers, the legacy without the evidence of Spirit. Steve Stevens spoke of the Christmas season being about family and said they are a family ministry. Does he not see the irony in those words? His father sits home on a Sunday morning not due to old age or Alzheimer's. His brother did not stand with him and Melody to sing. Why? He was slandered and discarded. Steve stands alone.

The elders spoke last week of a plan, they said, “Please help us live in the spirit of this statement.” How can anyone help you live in the spirit of your statement when by all appearances this Sunday morning, the declaration never occurred? Would not there have been some reference to it? Would not there have been some continuation of brokenness and reference to the momentous declaration just the week before? Something? Anything? Did they talk about the fact that true repentance will now bring in their needed revival?? No, the general consensus spoken from Bilowith, Esterbrook, Stevens was they have always been the best church on earth and nothing but revival is happening at GGWO! No, just business as usual..

[roseanna (roseanna)]

There was no continuation of brokenness, Jeannie, because there was no brokenness to begin with. There was no mention of true repentence bringing in revival because there was no true repentence. You are right - business as usual. That's the way things have always been handled at GG - you know, everything is wonderful because we are telling you it is. What? The emporer has no clothes? We certainly don't notice and you don't either, DO YOU?

I was reading Ez. 34 this morning in the New Living translation and it brought me great comfort:

"This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I now consider these shepherds my enemies, and I will hold them responsible for what has happened to My flock. I will take away their right to feed the flock, along with their right to feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths; the sheep will no longer be their prey."
Ez.34:9-10

[yogi (yogi)]

POWERFUL verse roseanna!

Does anyone wonder what Melody's "hubby" was thinking having to sit through yesterday's "move" of Steve's emotionalism? It made me SICK to hear him allude to being "off" if you question their bull****!

Yogi

Ps. I know "blood" is thicker than "by-gones" but I got the impression good ol Mel's performance yesterday was to insure her inheritance from daddy!

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Melody has always been Daddy's little girl. All in all, family dysfunctions aside, I believe they love their father, even those that don't speak to him much any more.

If we once loved him, and a lot of us did, there's no hiding the fact, it must be very difficult for his family to see him in this condition loving him as they do. They likely know him well enough also to know that there isn't any way he'll allow anyone to help him, even though I am glad Paul did try.

Regardless of what it looks like from our point of view, it cannot be easy for Carl's children to see him like this. I am sure Shaun and Melody are as distressed as the others. My heart goes out to them...it can't have been an easy life for those kids.

[yogi (yogi)]

Too true, it would be VERY difficult indeed! My own father suffers from Alzheimers!
Bert you have a dear and beautiful heart, thank you for reminding me to use mine!

Yogs

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Yogi,

So sorry to hear your father suffers from Alzheimer's.. it is my field and my passion. I know how difficult the burden is on the family. If I can offer any help, support or advice please feel free to email me.

Jeannieree44@aol.com

[yogi (yogi)]

Thank you jeannie!

Yogi

[jeannie (jeannie)]

I recieved this from a friend. With her permission I am posting it. I can't believe how much it describes the disconnect between words spoken and actions taken. If there really was some tiny bit of repentance would it not first start with the them??? How are we to believe with absolutely no fruit of sincerity?


My friend's words:
"I ran into **** yesterday. wouldn't you think that after her family member's "sincere" moment with God on stage that she'd receive me with love?? I went right to her, hugged her and said,"hey friend! it's great to see you and I love you!". she looked at me as if I were a stranger and said, "oh, hello. yes, good to see you too." turned and walked away.

so, silly me, undaunted, I approached her again and said, "I want you to know that what your family member did was really beautiful, and thank you, we love you guys." she said, "oh, what did he do?" .... I reminded her about his falling on his knees before God on stage......." she said, "oh, that. I'm glad you liked it." and turned and walked away. Holy Moses! at least I know that as I stand before god, I showed her the love God gave to me. I will always extend it to anyone in the hopes that sometime they will know it is true and right from the heart of God. they're all so blinded. But you know well that that attitude is not isolated. No, I am not bitter. It is hurtful. Imagine that the tables were turned and it was they that were being treated as a leper. It is painful, but you know, a little exciting as God strengthens His life within me. He's reaching deeper parts within me. If it took all of this rejection to bring more of Him out of me... then so be it. I know that I know that I am in the palm of His hand. He'll never leave me... never forsake me. HE WILL NEVER ALLOW ME TO TREAT A BELOVED FRIEND LIKE A STRANGER. HE through me can have an eternal impact on people as I continue to love them. I can be secure in who i am in Him."

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

..... and the beat goes on......

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Yogi,

where are you and where is your blogspot????

Louise

[yogi (yogi)]

Louise,

I'm still kickin' but have better things to do than beat a dead horse!

Thanks for missing me,

Yogi

[yogi (yogi)]

On the lighter side for those at FACTNet who love to debate theological issues...

How Many Christians Does It Take to Change a Light Bulb?

Charismatic: Only 1 - Hands are already in the air.

Pentecostal: 10 - One to change the bulb, and nine to pray against the spirit of darkness.

Presbyterians: None - Lights will go on and off at predestined times.

Roman Catholic: None - Candles only. (Of guaranteed origin of course.)

Baptists: At least 15 - One to change the light bulb, and three committees to approve the change and decide who brings the potato salad and fried chicken.

Episcopalians: 3 - One to call the electrician, one to mix the drinks, and one to talk about how much better the old one was.

Mormons: 5 - One man to change the bulb, and four wives to tell him how to do it.


Unitarians: We choose not to make a statement either in favor of or against the need for a light bulb. However, if in your own journey you have found that light bulbs work for you, you are invited to write a poem or compose a modern dance about your light bulb for the next Sunday service, in which we will explore a number of light bulb traditions, including incandescent, fluorescent, 3-way, long-life and tinted, all of which are equally valid paths to luminescence.

Methodists: Undetermined - Whether your light is bright, dull, or completely out, you are loved. You can be a light bulb, turnip bulb, or tulip bulb. Bring a bulb of your choice to the Sunday lighting service and a covered dish to pass.

Nazarene: 6 - One woman to replace the bulb while five men review church lighting policy.

Lutherans: Whomsoever - Lutherans have declared at Wittenberg the "reformed" view that changing from Roman Catholicism's candle to a light bulb is each man's right.

Amish: What's a light bulb?

Cheers,

Yogi

(Message edited by Yogi on January 08, 2005)

(Message edited by Yogi on January 08, 2005)

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Yogi:

I a glad you are still kicking!! I am also glad I saved the jpeg of SER in his true uniform, a troll suit. Your blogspot will be sorely missed by me.

Louise

[yogi (yogi)]

Thanks Louise! If you'd like me to e-mail you any picture I'd be glad to attach them your way. Just say the word.

Yogi

[minutus (minutus)]

Great joke, Yogi!

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Glad you're still around, Yogi, but I miss the blog.

[yogi (yogi)]

Thanks boss! Hey, God bless you as you go to fight for our freedom big guy!

Yogi

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Good to hear from you Yogi. You were missed.

Maria

[yogi (yogi)]

Maria,

Good to hear from you too! You also were missed.
Did you get my e-mail?

Yogi