Without a vision the people perish

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

What was it Pastor Stevens always used to say..."Without a vision, the people perish"

The time has come when the vision is distorted, too weak to sustain itself or is just plain gone. It is time for Carl to step down. Although I have considered this church cultic because of Carl's insistence upon pastoral authority and the tactics used to undermine our critical thinking, I see him now as feeble, no natter the cause...and he must not be allowed to remain in the pulpit. I say this for his own good as well as that of the people. The anger I once felt for the arrogant haughty preacher has dissipated, and now I feel only sadness, embarrasment for him and a prayer that he will repent for his own sake.

Now it becomes the elders who are at fault. There needs to be a complete purging, and a new vision. A vison that is not cultic in nature, a vision that hold's Christ higher than the leaders. The vision for inreach as well as outreach has to come. It is the inreach that has suffered and people are confused and hurting.

But if the people are NOT to perish, they must cry out for the purging. If we are God's people and we are, if we are called to help the lost, and we are, if we are to be witnesses for Christ in God's church and we are...the time is now to demand the purging of the corruption and get on with the new...for there will be no true healing otherwise.

Any nurse or doctor will tell you the infection must be removed as much as possible from the open wound, and it must be cleaned properly or it will never heal completely...it will always fester till the death comes. I cannot believe that God does not want his people to be healed. If he sent his son to bleed and die for sin, and he did, he would not withold this cleansing. he has already given us the power, the command and the blessing...where are his people?

The bearers of the Kingdom within, those who the Holy Spirit inhabits must take action. We already know deep inside, though some may still be in denial, that change has to come. Why wait? Does it do right by Pastor Stevens to let him go on like this? Does it help the inreach to allow the elders to prop up a weakened man who is apt to speak inappropriately and is actually too ill to manage?

No. It doesn't. But why do they hesitate to do the right thing? They hesitate because without pastor Stevens they are nothing. They have no power without him and they show up as frauds without him.

You say..."in His time"...I say there is no other time but now. Now is His time. Do you wait to go soul winning? Do you wait to be told to sing his praise? Now is the time.

Pray, people of God. Pray that you can cry out for the right thing. Pray for Carl Stevens that he be given proper medical treatment for what ever it is that is ailing him. Pray that the men who surround him will do what is best for Pastor, what is best for the church and what is best for Christ....pray, cry out, be God's people.

And if they do NOT do what is right...take action....before the people do perish.

[Anonymous (67.243.139.214)]

Roberta,

Your plea is both truthful and honorable. Though I have not always agreed with your theology; once again you've demonstrated your beautiful heart of compassion and hunger for a wrong to be made right.

Thanks for not attacking the man; but the problem.

Blessings to you my courageous sister in Christ Jesus our Lord!

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

Proverbs 29:18 - Where there is no vision, the people perish

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Thanks Anon 67. "Courageous" is a compliment that blesses me.

[Cara (152.163.253.102)]

Great words Roberta!

It IS time. It is now up to the elders to do the right thing. Not after the fact.. when Pastor is gone and another cover-up takes place. Now! Come clean and make this church; a church that is part of the body of Christ; clean again.

I will continue to pray to my Savior for this but I PLEAD to the elders for this. I beg you to stop the damage control and throw your own lives on the Savior. Do what is right.. too many have perished and too many will. You hold the power for change, not factnet, not the world, not the Christian community, but you..

Pastor Marr, if you are genuine then speak to the many here on this forum. Be genuine.. put the old aside, put the damage control and canned statements aside. Be real and genuine and express Christ. Is that too impossible?

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Who among us knows God's plan in this situation? If this is a Christian church as I believe it is and as the Martin report says it is, then God is bound by His own words to take care of it, not for the sake of the ministry, but for the sake of His people.


Is it time to act? How can we know? How should Joseph have acted toward his brothers? Should he have exposed them for the wicked men that they were and had them put in prison? He had the power and he would have been justified in doing so. Instead, he forgave them before they ever had a chance to repent. Wasn't King Saul right when he would not wait for Samuel? After all, he knew it was God's will that he go to battle. What about Job's friends? Were they right in their evaluation of Job? They sure thought they were and they made a good case.

The reason we should not jump the gun is because we do not know what God wants to reveal in the situation. While we might think it is obvious that the elders should take Pastor down, that might be the easy way out and not God's will. Are the elders weak? Maybe, maybe not. To know what to do and not do it is sin, but to act prematurely and without wisdom and love goes against the character of God. We seem to expect so much from leaders. They have needs, too. I am sure they want to do what is right and I am sure they are trying to figure out what that is. Maybe we should be holding up their arms this time and allow God to move. Then we should remember that even if God disciplines them, it is because He loves them unconditionally and wants to restore them. It is the churches that God does not chastise that worry me.

[Cara (205.188.117.20)]

68.33.60.157/Pastor Marr,

I do not believe this situation that has been going on for over a year needs further prayer or waiting on God. If Pastor kills himself while the elders were in prayer about it, who do you think would be accountable before God?

While members of the body of Christ are marked and slandered while the elders wait and pray, who do you think would be accountable before God?

If the flock is wounded and confused after being lied to by these very elders, who do you think would be accountable before God?

If a weak member leaves the flock and serves God no more, due to disillusionment, while the elders are waiting on God.. who is accountable for that lost sheep?

Yes, prayer is necessary but your inaction speaks more to me of self-preservation than care for the flock.

Don't be abstract. Be specific to the situation and maybe I could hear genuineness for others. I am not hearing it yet.

[Anonymous (68.34.67.195)]

Thank you Cara. You spelt out the issues so well. If the elders did indeed care about the flock, they would address specific issues from the pulpit and let us all know what we could be praying about together. Imagine if there had been honesty and discussion from the very beginning, we could all be experiencing the answers from God together. Instead, we have been left in confusion and the awful state of being patronized and lied to. I am just one lost sheep (but in the eyes of ggwo, I have been "purged.")

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

" to act prematurely and without wisdom and love goes against the character of God."

Is it premature to seek help for an ailing man? Is is acting without love and wisdom to make a Godly decision? What would have happened to the people if Moses hadn't acted? Where would you be if Jesus hadn't acted?

I fail to see how assisting Pastor Stevens with medical help is acting without love and wisdom. The same old tired ..."we must wait for God to move" is a cop out at this point. or perhaps you cannot see the signs anymore? Are you blind?

If the kingdom of God is within you, and you are not twisted by false doctrines and are NOT trying to preserve yourself you have no plausible reason other than denial and blindness to the pain of others for your inaction.

Without a vision the people do perish. Open your eyes...around you the boat is sinking, and people are perishing. Lives are being destroyed because men of no spiritual courage or character will come to the aid of an sickly old man and a confused and perishing congregation.

Shame on you. Have you no love? Have you no courage? Have you no pity, compassion, or care for God's people? Are you prepared to pray as the boat sinks, or is it that you prefer to fiddle while Rome burns. Inaction due to a lack of fortitude or willful ungodly self preservation?

We have literally have prayed till there are no more words left to pray. When will men and women of Godly conviction do what is Godly and right? Jim Faucett has posted the verses on this board about the Biblical way to address this and STILL nothing is done.

I cannot for the life of me understand people who see Pastor Stevens in that pulpit week after week, and they do not love him enough to see that he is helped medically and removed from preaching. I am not a member anymore of GGWO, but I care more than the flock seems to. God knows this man is ill, he needs help and I would hope that someone would get it for him. Won't anyone care at all?

Where there is no vision the people perish.

[Cara (64.12.117.20)]

Again Roberta, beautifully spoken and 68.34 I am so sorry you are among the purged.

Again once again, no response back from the elders who read this board.. who have read it for months and do not act, speak, address genuine pain and wounds.

But Pastor continues to get behind the pulpit or of late, just sit on the platform, unable to speak coherently and nothing is done but further damage control, further silence in the midst of bleeding sheep. This is not the Lord I know, it just is not.

If God was within the elder board the way would be easy. The inaction, the damage control, the silence speaks volumes. If you do not desire to be labeled a cult then stop acting like one!

We, that have been part of TBS/GG are in the unique position of being believers that have been taught grace. Christ dwells within us and we commune with Him. Yet as an organization we act no different than Scientology or some heathen cult. The damage wrought on the individual is devastating. Families divided and seperated. It is sin. I think of Nancy Brown when she sings most beautifully the song "Oh Love Of God, So Rich and Pure".. she imparts the wonder and love of God to me as no other with that song. Yet she is cut off from her own dear brother.. Joel.. a faithful and loving man of God.. that no longer is affliated with GG. This does not reconcile with my spirit. Something is very wrong! Why can we not take this crisis within GG and turn it for God's good? The answer is: We do not have the power to wrought this.. but the elders do!

Dear men, for the love of God, so rich and pure... please bring the needed change. Whatever it costs you.. please.. I plead with you, just do it...

[Nancy Curra (172.142.131.135)]

I agree Cara and I have pleaded to. I am at a loss as to why there is no response. Besides being elders and before being pastors or elders some of these were my friends. It's funny how friendships change once you become a staff member.

My heart is broken and tears flow because this is all so unnecessary. God is faithful and aware and knew it would be like this before it happened.

I take comfort in knowing He already has answers and will care for His sheep. Bless the day we are all in Heaven and all we have is sweet communion with Him and one another.

Also please pray for me. My discharge date is July 27. After nearly 9 months in this nursing home and I am going home. Mixed feelings about it, lived in a bed all this time. But I know it will be sweet I am looking forward to seeing all my friends.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

"whatever it costs you"

Perhaps you have defined most perfectly the crux of the matter, Cara.

For I and countless others have searched the scriptures, pleaded with God, communed with the Holy Spirit within, and find no hinderance or hesitation from God for the compassionate and simple action necessary to rectify the current situation, but for this one thing...the cost to the elders.

It is evidently be too high a price to help the old gentleman get medical assistance; too high a cost for the many to step aside for the one who will need to take his place; too costly to their pride to admit they have sinned against God and His church with their deceptions and cover ups; it will be too costly to be transparent with God's people about money, methods, mind control and sexual misconduct past and present...they fear these revealations and THIS seems to be the only hinderance to the health of this local assembly.

Do I sound brutal and harsh? Good. Because this "wait and let God move" is apparently another cover up and ploy so these sinful men can get their ducks in a row before they do anything. How God despises such cowardice.

"It is the churches that God does not chastise that worry me." I would suggest that you not continue to incur God's anger, Pastor 68. God will not be mocked by such misuse of his people. As an elder one must be careful not to be too familiar with the deceptive approach, for this is a time when God will have his way. Spirtual people can see the signs...it is curious that you do not.

Or perhaps not so curious considering the "cost"

[Nancy (172.142.131.135)]

well said Roberta...counting the cost is the issue and true Christianity wouldn't care about the cost and true Christianity would forgive and forget.

Our prayers for our brethren will not cease and our cry for accountability to save the shipwrecked will not cease.

I also would beseech that the Friday nite message would be taken off the site. It has already damaged so many weak ones and the more that listen to it the more it will damage.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

No...I trally think it has to stay. Perhaps it will open the eyes of more of the blind congregation. The more eyes and ears that are opened the better chance God will be heard.

[Nancy (172.142.131.135)]

not sure on that one. Just know so many I have talked to were confused. God's will be done.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I agree Nancy...God's will be done. And hopefully done by God's people before too many more fall away. Accountablity seems to be the watchword.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. He who is a hireling and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. He flees because he is a hireling and cares nothing for the sheep. I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd."

Jesus, the One Shepherd
John 10:11-16 RSV

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

"We seem to expect so much from leaders. They have needs, too. I am sure they want to do what is right and I am sure they are trying to figure out what that is."

Seem to expect so much? YES! They are supposed to lead, not lie, pray for not prey upon, live in Truth not concoct lies to cover their sins...and every one of the men surrounding the ailing Pastor Stevens is guilty. So...I am not sure they know what is right, what... are you? I wonder if it has been so long since they knew how to be truthful that they truly are confused as to just how to deal with this situation.

I also have a question for a pastor at GGWO...Is it true that Paul was asked to leave GGWO because he tried to get medical help for his ailing father? And if so, why? Did he go against the current series of cover ups going on? And please...we are not stupid animals that see nothing...it is obvious that there is a lot of covering up going on.

Still not one elder has answered the questions about the Friday night convention message, not one elder has answered ANYONE's questions. They have left the people to fend for themselves. Is another exodus planned...perhaps to the northwest this time? Escape, and leave the poor congregation scrambling to keep up like you have so many times before?

Your people perish for lack of correct doctrine, undiluted unaltered truth, direction etc. You trained them to follow you yet the leaders, so-called, will NOT lead. No manna from heaven can save you now. Time to get real.

It is time to pony up boys...do the right thing for once in your lives. You have damaged your people, now you won't do what is right for them and they perish.

You cannot give these people a vision of God, for he's never known you? is that it?

Pharisees, liars, puppets and money grubbers cannot help anyone. Perhaps the cost of truth is much much too high for you. You can't even help an ailing old gentleman whom you have claimed to love...God's tears are too precious to shed for this.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

.

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

(68.33.60.157) How do we know this is Pastor Marr?

And if that is you Pastor Marr, why do you and the other enablers insist on ignoring the scriptures, i.e. 1 Tim. 5:19ff, to continue the outrage? How about a public debate? I am ready when you are. Subjects? How about Church Polity and Hermeneutics?

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

Jim,
If you won't call Carl Stevens "Pastor" because you feel he does not fulfill the requirements, why do you feel Michael Marr has the right to be called "Pastor"? Seems there are more than a few questions about his integrity as well

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

Questions are one thing, having gone through the entire Matthew 18 process is another. I am just as happy to address him as Mike.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Actually it would be interesting to have M. Marr address us, here, and answer a few questions.

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

Why, Roberta? Haven't you heard enough lies on here?

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Reposted...

anyone know anything about this?


Anonymous (66.30.49.45)
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 05:35 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I want to interject here that I have just been told by an "inside" ggwo person that the leadership is drafting something THIS WEEK that will keep Stevens from preaching EVER again.

This is evidently due to the weird and terrible service the other night when CHS rambled incoherantly and screwed up the altar call big time.

Can anyone give us details about what the heck is going on? (Many of us still have loved ones there who are VERY atttached to this demented man.)


Lori Argenzio (141.157.80.117)
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 05:40 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I will believe that when I see it.

Is your source a reliable one?


Anonymous (66.30.49.45)
Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 05:42 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very reliable. They spoke with one of the head pastors there that is leaving.

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

Perhaps you are right Nic, maybe for sheer consistency all these GG guys should get used to being called by their first names.

By the way, Mike, if you are agreeable to a public debate you can email me:

Jim Faucett (somebonus@yahoo.com)

(I don't think I will hold my breath.)

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Why Nic...have you been lying?

I would like to hear the man speak for himself...you find that strange?

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Jim, don't hold your breath cuz blue may not be your color...*s*

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

No, Roberta, I have heard him speak for himself. That is why I asked the question

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Since I know you lurk here, could one of you GG pastors please pass on my request for a public debate to Mike Marr, or it could be Dan Lewis, Scibelli or Schaller--doesn't matter--just anyone who wants to defend their hermeneutic and church polity.</FONT>

[Anonymous (67.249.230.172)]

Jim why not e-mail them with your request?

[Nic (205.188.117.20)]

No one from Greater Grace will ever debate anyone publicly here, because their policy is to ignore FactNet

[Anonymous (67.249.230.172)]

E-mail them...

here...drlewis@ggwo.org sscibelli@ggwo.org

pastorchstevens@ggwo.org

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

Nic, I don't want to debate them on the internet. I want to debate them face to face. I put the invitation here because I know that they lurk here. It can even be in their building as long as there is an independent moderator. These kinds of things go on all the time withing evangelical circles and are conducted quite civilly. See http://www.aomin.org for examples.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.155.184)]

Jim, There's a guy named John Rankin who often debates with atheists and homosexuals and such publicly. He's very fair and respectful and loving in his approach. He does have a website; but I've had trouble getting at it. There were changes made in it recently. The email address I have for him is theological@snet.net

It might be worth approaching him as a potential moderator. He's very thorough in his approach to things. Bob

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

That is a great suggestion Bob. But my feeling is that they would only say something like, "You only want to debate because you are prideful and suffer from intellectual lust--you really hate us and want to bring down the ministry." As noted above, I'm not holding my breath.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Another day goes by...the people continue to perish while the elders twidle their thumbs. Carl Stevens deteriorates and they do nothing. People who once believed are now not so sure...

and still the elders do nothing.

I conclude that in this case, after all this time...they are not so much indecisive as they care more for themselves than they do the people.

So...are they the wolves or the shepherds? They will not speak to the issue when pressed, they will not act when action is called for, they will not speak comfort to God's people, they will not sacrifice what needs to be sacrificed to be God's men for the situation.

I repeat:

"Pharisees, liars, puppets and money grubbers cannot help anyone. Perhaps the cost of truth is much much too high for you. You can't even help an ailing old gentleman whom you have claimed to love...God's tears are too precious to shed for this."

[Anonymous (67.163.201.62)]

Watching "pastor" Stevens on realtime is creepy.
It is like watching Elvis in his last days.
Though Elvis was just as drugged, he was more coherent.
But his followers kept propping him up to maintain their own interests. Just like all the "pastors" running around at ggwo are doing while fighting for postition.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

That's what upsets me the most. This man is so obviously ill and in need of medical treatment. I cannot bear to know that someone I once loved is so mistreated by people who claim to love him. I have been angry in past years with him, but I see only someone in dire need of help...my anger now is towards those who will not do the right thing by him. How awful.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

if they really care for the man they should help him

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

It's not the other pastors propping Stevens up!
It is Stevens himself who will not let go or make wise, reponsible decisions.

He's like an old mafia don who continues to send out mumbled contracts even on his death bed- never to let go of his "family interests" till the grim reaper finally knocks on the door...Or the dictator in North Korea who keeps on truckn' even though his whole country is starving to death...

Stevens is energized by a force that no one around him discerns! (and many around him have the same energy)

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

I've spent the last 5 yrs caring for my elderly, demented mother till her death a few months ago. Someone has to make the decisions. Someone has to stand fast to what is the right thing to do. There are organizations out there that can offer you support. Friends that have been through the difficulties of manuevering your elderly loved one around can help. Knowing the right thing to do and not to do it is WRONG.

The sad truth though is that this kind of thing destroys families. I have a large family that is completely torn apart because of dementia and poor planning, refusal to live in reality and denial.

This isn't a ministry issue as much as it a human rights issue and a family issue. I finally had to stop trying to hold the family together and let them all go for the sake of doing the right thing for a woman who couldn't take care of herself.

I'm no saint and I'm no hero. I hated the job I had to do, it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. However, I have no regrets. She died with dignity, her days of dying, which were long and time consuming for me were kept dignified.

The least one could do for their father or pastor is support the one that will step up to the plate to do the work. Hard decisions but very necessary ones.

I wonder if there is such a person.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

"The least one could do for their father or pastor is support the one that will step up to the plate to do the work. Hard decisions but very necessary ones."

AMEN.

[Anonymous (24.172.44.98)]

Jim,

If you feel led to speak to somebody at GGWO why don't you call some of them.

Didn't you speak to a Pastor there already?

Neil

[Nic (152.163.253.102)]

To Anon 66, 5:12 pm who wrote:

"Stevens is energized by a force that no one around him discerns! (and many around him have the same energy)"

Please elaborate on this statement

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Yeah, Nic...I am curious about that one myself...*s*...not sure whar he/she is saying. Better to ask than assume, I think.

[JF (24.153.221.161)]

Did you not understand that I made the invitation to debate here because I know they lurk here. I know how to work a phone. They also have proved they know my number. It is a public invitation. If I had done it by phone you wouldn't have been able to read it. Neither would they all who lurk here.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.178.253)]

What it really comes down to Jim, is that they're chicken. They're afraid of you.

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

So the debate challenge was basically just to show everyone that they would not be willing to do it.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.178.253)]

I don't think so. I think Jim would love to debate them. This is one possible approach. He just doesn't expect them to do it. It's like us continuing to vote. I live in Massachusetts. Whatever way I vote doesn't matter. The tide is here.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Real invitation. Just realistic in expectations.

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

...

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Reading the thread here entitled "Elders" has made me once again wonderhow any of these men can sleep at night. They won't do what desperatly needs doing, they shun and "mark" Carl's son who wanted to get his father help...Disgusting. These men are poor excuses for men and NOT men of God in any way that could even be vaguely recognizable.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

The people are perishing under this corrupt leadership.

If there are any leaders with integrity left they need to step in now!

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I agree....are there none there with any integrity? Are they blind on purpose? What are they afraid of? WHO are they afraid of? Who or what is stopping them?

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

If the elders WILL NOT do what is right in the eyes of God, I say again...it is time for the people to cry out.

Stand up. Protest. Demand action. Disrupt a service if necessary, force them to notice you. Believe me, friends, they are merely mortal men and at this point are holding illegitimate positions. They have defied God in their lusts remain in power.

How dare they intimidate anyone? Who do they think they are. Will this woeful situation be allowed to continue?

People of GGWO...your spirits are starving. You are perishing, confused, unable to answer the pointed questions of your children. You have a responsibility to the Spirit Of God, God the Father and The Son to stop following men. Search your heart...would YOU allow this to happen if Carl were your father? I don't think so...but you allow these corrupt elders to let him suffer...when will you with one voice rise up and throw out the garbage?

You have one voice...use it. Disrupt a service if you have to...demand answers...don't be silent if you love Pastor Stevens. He is ill and will get worse...will you let these men wait till it is too late?

For shame.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

.

[Anonymous (209.6.151.215)]

.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

roberta, amen
this could really get something done i admire your courage and boldness ,there needs to be action in both Baltimore and Delaware ...as in earlier posts the picket sign idea is good too ,it will draw the newscrew thats for sure especially if they are contacted prior to a planned peaceful protest...God bless you

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

elcheapo building fund ..

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

lets do it ....take a stand ..disrupt the service ..make the issues known loud and clear... call for them to repent now .....and tell the truth ... or everyone walk out ..

[Anonymous (63.27.6.32)]

Don't walk out...just don't give this organization your tithes, time and offerings...not THAT'S making a statement LOUD &amp; CLEAR!

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

.

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

Go and do something satan really doesn't want you to do today and pray instead of spending time on factnet.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

bump