To Mr Marr

[joni_fortin (joni_fortin)]

If there is one thing I would like you to know about the people on Factnet it is this: Many of us are MATURE believers. Our feet firmly planted in the Word of God, like a sequoia tree. We have walked with Christ for 20+. We are rooted, grounded and doctrinally sound, have been tested, tried, put through the fire and KNOW the mercies of God.

Make no mistake, the people on here are no 'light weights'. The questions are valid. As an attorney, I'm sure you can clearly see that. When will they be answered?

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Joni,

It is wonderful to have your strong voice on the forum. I am posting an old post from the archives. We were still waiting for answers back in April!

We are still waiting....



Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 9:01 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree with you 68.., I think you are viewing this forum incorrectly. You said in the context of "a negative approach, it only alienates those who can affect change" I can honestly say since August, THAT WAS 9 MONTHS AGO, I have watched leader after leader, time after time, incident after incident, do the "negative approach". Each leader in a position of authority has repeatedly done the unbiblical, unethical, immoral approach in the current situation. What transpired over these many months angered me and confused me and saddened me and it drove me to find the answer why. The answer is we all belong to an abusive church system. From the leaders on down, it is a subtle web that draws you in and before you know are playing "the abusive church rules". Consider all the men who have left. Consider Jack Leonard, he is a man of obvious integrity.. why is he not with us? Where are the men YOU know in your heart, were good and honest men? They had to leave, if they wanted to continue to be men of character and integrity, they had no choice. I remember hearing during the trial things that Jack and Lee were sharing with Joni Fortin, Joni had been Jack's secretary. In my heart, I knew their view was the godly one. But their voice was silenced and they walked away without friends, many wounds but they kept their integrity. Our church has a history of "a long line of good men leaving." But we also have a long line of walking wounded leaving, they cannot be ignored any longer. So my question to you is: what is the negative approach? Leaders habitually sinning or a few "minor players" stating the truth and pleading, asking, begging for our leaders to do the right thing?
The forum's purpose is to give all a voice, unfortunately many have a pretty ugly story to tell. The effects of sin and errant doctrines are not pretty, but they exist. Their stories only emphasize the abusive system we are in. They are the victims! And they should be heard.
It is ironic, many come to the forum and question how we can be speaking such evil. But the truth is, any leader coming to this forum knows how much HAS NOT been said here.
The only people with any power are the current leaders and they are the only ones that will not be served by change. They will have to repent, some would have to give up their positions because of sin. It does not matter to any of them that the flock is hurting. Preserving their position of unchecked authority is their first priority. We have had many emails and calls, not one of our longtime friends has called though. Why? because once again, they must play by the abusive church rule book. We have been marked as off, an enemy, discounted and discarded. God wants this to change, in a closed system with unrepentant leaders, God will bring change in whatever way He has to. Pray just one leaders steps up and does right BEFORE God brings their sin for public consumption. It not those on this forum that are operating in the negative approach, it is our leaders. We are still waiting.... Jeannie Byrne

[lee (lee)]

Some recent thoughts:
The leaders of GGWO don't know how to repent. No, they don't! Their example has been CHS, who has taught us that he sinned against God and God only! I remember him saying many times that for 2-3 seconds, he'd have a bad attitude about something, but he'd instantly rebound and be right back in the good graces of God!
That tells me that we've had a pretty poor example set before us.
We have had a good example set before us in the church we've attended in the last 8 years. The pastor had fallen into sexual sin. Discipline was necessary. I was amazed ( sorry for the overuse of the word, but it fits) I watched, as a man was brought, kindly, gently but quite firmly into repentance by those around him. Some took place in private with parties closely invloved and some part with the church.....it was taken as far public as the sin was taken public. It taught me a lesson I won't easily put away. I've been impressed with something I take as being from God, that I never saw demonstrated while I attended TBS. Repentance was NOT a way of life there. It was always pushed aside and made light of.
In light of the recent Hogarth confrontation of the elders, we've been cautiously optimistic that the elders will listen to him and bring themselves into repentence and make things right with the people. My hope and prayer is that these men, who I think esteem themselves quite highly, will seriously consider what it means to repent. I also hope that the repentence will go further than just the Paul incident. There have been many men and women that have gone before in love and humility to a man we loved and considered God's man, only to be shunned and then turned away with wrath and continued slander and maligning.
There's nothing like true heartfelt repentence that can turn hearts toward love for others. On the other hand, anything that isn't honest will only cause even more division and sorrow.
Now, as their pastor is diminished in his capacity to understand what is necessary right now, the elders need to do the right thing for him,themselves, the people they serve, and those that have paid the high price of becoming their scapegoats.
I honeslty want to see a good outcome. I don't believe I have expectations that are to high. After all, honesty and humility is something that we should all be familiar with. If we aren't, its time to learn.

[lee (lee)]

P.S. BTW For those wondering the outcome of church discipline at the church we attend.....the people involved are all doing quite well. As with other cases I've been privy to, those involved are transparent about what happened and at ease talking about it. It's the difference between hiding the sin and bringing it into the light. When its in the light, there is nothing to fear.
It has enabled me to follow their example. There's nothing quite like feeling free from the bondage of sin . It's a nice life to not have to be looking over your shoulder all the time, wondering if you'll be found out.
I'm thankful for being brought to a place where this was modeled to me.

[lee (lee)]

Mr. Marr,
I apologize for what I wrote above. This morning, I realized it was too harsh. It was not written in a spirit that would cause me to freely 'fess up'!!
It doesn't negate my opinion however, about how we were taught to repent.
I should have written with more love and grace.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

This deserved a "bump."

Mr. Marr - I remember a student, who by the way I remember having beautiful fellowship with, coming up to me after a class in Pauline Epistles and he said, "Lately I am in a real conflict about becoming a pastor and still being able to be a lawyer. I am qustioning my ability to do both."

I thought that was beautiful, because I put lawyers at the bottom of my least favorite professions list. What happened to that sweet spirited man. I believe he was real. But where has he gone?

It seems that the system that corrupted me and so many others corrupted that man. And I genuinely miss him.

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

This deserved a "bump."

Mr. Marr - I remember a student, who by the way I remember having beautiful fellowship with, coming up to me after a class in Pauline Epistles and he said, "Lately I am in a real conflict about becoming a pastor and still being able to be a lawyer. I am qustioning my ability to do both."

I thought that was beautiful, because I put lawyers at the bottom of my least favorite professions list. What happened to that sweet spirited man. I believe he was real. But where has he gone?

Could it be that you discovered that CHS's brand of "pastor" allowed for any practice? As long as it furthered "his" kingdom, it was/is alright? It seems that the system that corrupted me and so many others corrupted that man. And I genuinely miss him. *sigh*

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[arguendo (arguendo)]

"I thought that was beautiful, because I put lawyers at the bottom of my least favorite professions list."

Really? I always put people who use people's universal fear of death, damnation and eternal separation from God for the benefit of their own personal gain and edification of ego at the bottom of mine.

And by the way, this idea of freedom of speech that you currently enjoy did not exist at the time of the drafting of the Constitution. It evoled more than a hundred years later and was the result of a bunch of lawyers, with either brave or greedy clients, who fought a multitude of court battles during the 20th century just so you could safely state your opinion against people with more power than you.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Very true arguendo, and it is totally wrong for me to lump all lawyers into the "aclu" and/or "abulance chasers" bucket. There are many great layers fighting for our rights today. Dr. David Gibbs emediately comes to mind. Thanks for the wake up call.

I hate "generalizations," yet often find myself a slave to them.

BTW arguendo, I did want to say that if I have sinned against you, I ask your forgiveness.

It seems to me after the posting you did "against" me yesterday either I have in fact sinned against you, or, you bought the party line lies that CHS and his henchman spread about me (and many others).

However, God used your post to make me realize another reason why CHS lies about "his" pastors one to another, while they are still there, that is so if they ever do leave him the "faithful" can say to others, "Oh yea, well he always had(such and such)problem."

It makes me shudder when I remember how when Kathleen and I went to CHS for counseling he tried to find out (both individually and when we both went to him) if either my wife or I had ever had an affair. Thank God we have not!! But I see all too clearly, especially after reading other peoples heartaches on here, that he just wanted something for his "file" on us.

So thank you for that wake up call too, arguendo. You are more good to/for me than you or I may realize.

Blessings,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Very true arguendo, and it is totally wrong for me to lump all lawyers into the "aclu" and/or "abulance chasers" bucket. There are many great layers fighting for our rights today. Dr. David Gibbs emediately comes to mind. Thanks for the wake up call.

I hate "generalizations," yet often find myself a slave to them.

THE NEXT PORTION IS EDITED, IT SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO FISHERMAN

BTW Fisherman, I did want to say that if I have sinned against you, I ask your forgiveness.

It seems to me after the posting you did "against" me the other day either I have in fact sinned against you, or, you bought the party line lies that CHS and his henchman spread about me (and many others).

However, God used your post to make me realize another reason why CHS lies about "his" pastors one to another, while they are still there, that is so if they ever do leave him the "faithful" can say to others, "Oh yea, well he always had(such and such)problem."

END OF FISHERMAN EDIT

It makes me shudder when I remember how when Kathleen and I went to CHS for counseling he tried to find out (both individually and when we both went to him) if either my wife or I had ever had an affair. Thank God we have not!! But I see all too clearly, especially after reading other peoples heartaches on here, that he just wanted something for his "file" on us.

So thank you for reposting Fisherman's post, that was a wake up call too, arguendo. You are more good to/for me than you or I may realize.

Blessings,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

(Message edited by ralphwells on February 17, 2005)

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Ralph, as people who've been around here a while know, I don't want apologies. I really think what you write is between you and God. However, I appreciate the sentiment.

It's not nice to lump people together, but it's something we all do. I do it as well.

On lighter note, Ralph, you actually owe a debt to ACLU, too. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gifThey've defended religious speech, too.

For that matter, everyone venting about CHS on FACTNet should be writing a little thank you note to Larry Flynt. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

It's funny where good comes from.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

"It seems to me after the posting you did "against" me yesterday either I have in fact sinned against you, or, you bought the party line lies that CHS and his henchman spread about me (and many others)."

Ralph, I don't know who you are and I do not know anyone that knows you. I don't recall posting anything against you at all, although I may have disagreed with something you said. I do recall defending you when the child abuse stuff was brought up again. Please let me know what it is that seemed like an attack of you personally.

[sam_i_am (sam_i_am)]

I was perusing this thread and thought I'd add an observation, mostly to Lee's excellent and valid comments. I've been mentioning this to various leaders of our extremely dangerous, mind-control, brainwashing cult....

Five Ways of resolving Conflict

I use this a lot in marriage counseling...We all have learned to resolve conflicts in various ways. Imagine a graph. Lows to highs runs from bottom to top, left to right. The bottom line represents in the desire for a right answer, administartive, doctrinal, situaional..ETC. The verticle line (imaginary) represents the desire to preserve the relationship.


1.<u>GIVE IN</u>______________5.<u>RESOLVE</u>



.................4.<u>NEGOTIATE</u>


2.<u>STONEWALL</u>_______________3. <u>ARGUE</u>
___________________________________http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/triangle_right.gif

1. Give in. Is the enabler's corner.The desire to "keep the peace" outweighs by far the desire to arrive at a solution. It is "You win, I lose."
2. Stonewall. This is lose-lose. No talk. No discussion. Communication is cut off. People are marked...ETC.
3. Argue. The debater's corner. Usually characterized by anger,harsh words, hurt feelings, alienation between people, self-righteousness...ETC. It is "I win , you lose."
4. Negotiate. This is no win, no lose. "I{ll give 50% if you do." "I'll take one step if you do." Usually a stalemate with no resolution.

There is only one healthy way to resolve conflict...

5. Resolve. This takes the most work. It is win-win. It requires humilty, God, wisdom, maybe time and much effort, but yileds the best results.

Pr. Steven's personality, his apparent learned behavior, tends towards the left bottom (2), sometimes to the left-top(1). Here's the point- TBS/GGWO has had an unhealthy focus and adulation of the personality of CHS. People have sought to imitate his every nuance and aspects of his personality. From those traists being idolized, they become institutionalized. From institutionalized, they become spiritualized, with even doctrines (such as 'impersonal love') designed for this. Hence you create a dysfunctional church as we have.

I agree with Lee, that repentance is the key- a total and drastic change of behvior-thought patterns reflected in change of policies and doctrines.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

What post of Lee's is this refering to? I thought her comments regarding conflict resolution were on a different thread?

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

arguendo - I think I had a very senior moment. I did not read the "repost" of fisherman's closely enough. Sorry.

But, I will draw the line at thanking Larry Flint for anything though. *smile*

Blessings,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

(Message edited by ralphwells on February 17, 2005)

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

Pastor Moon, I appreciate your post. When I was reading it it reminded me of CHS' teachings on crystallization and that even though CHS and others don't believe GGWO is crystalized; GGWO is crystalized in how it views itself and is resistant to truth about its behavior and what the universal Body of Christ thinks about GGWO.

[lee (lee)]

Good proof of the crystalization is the posting running CLA down, Dr R's post on dining with his friend. These types of responses from those in GG have been coming for years. As a matter of fact, I was pretty good at it myself!

Getting some of this stuff out was like going to the dentist when you haven't been in a long time. The drill will get overheated if not careful!

If this is what was meant by waging war against enemies as mentioned in the Sandy Cove Document, I think they have to come up with something much better, or they will find themselves being laughed at! I don't think too much genuine creativity can be found in old hackneyed phrases.

I don't think they have a defense. Repentance would be the only thing left, and they seem to have rejected that.

[twoedgedsword (twoedgedsword)]

Ralph do you have a guilty conscience or something? Seems to me you do, you obviously ****ed off a few hundred people during your GGWO days. Chll Bro!!

This is Marr's thread. Questions for the attorney/teacher/elder. Let's stick with the topic at hand. No wonder there's 456 threads on here!! Nobody stays on topic!!

[twoedgedsword (twoedgedsword)]

Questions for Mr. Marr:

#1. Mr. Marr, after the Sandy Cove Declaration took place and the 66 pastors/elders all signed it, is it true that this agreement will be null and void if Carl Stevens isn't removed from the pulpit one way or another?

#2. Mr. Marr, why don't you post? You obviously read Factnet, you're little tattletale alluded to that many times on here. For you newbies, I'm referring to Maria T. She may have been at GGWO "after" the service last Wednesday night but she sure was in conversation with Marr and another elder!! So, Mr. Marr, Can't you say truthfully to those of us on here why you don't post other than saying "the Holy Spirit hasn't allowed me to do so???" Isn't the real answer that you are afraid of what the other elders will do/say, or perhaps even your friend Carl Stevens?

#3. Mr. Marr, what is it going to take to remove Carl Stevens from the pulpit? Yeah we heard the rumors that everybody wants him to step down. How can one man hold that much power? You're the church's attorney, can't you draft a document MAKING him resign?

#4. Mr. Marr: Are you implementing the CORRECT doctrines in your classes now?

#5. Mr. Marr: Are the other pastors/leaders that were at Sandy Cove that teach at MBCS implementing the changed doctrines yet?

#6. Mr. Marr: When will the church body be told of the doctrines that were false? After Carl steps down glorified for his fifty years of service, honored to the hilt??

#7. Mr. Marr: What reconcilliation efforts have YOU personally taken to restore Paul Stevens?

#8. Mr. Marr: How much control over you elders does Carl Stevens really have? Or should I ask, how much control DO YOU let him have?

#9. Mr. Marr: When the day comes that Carl Stevens is removed from the pulpit, will the church body be told the truth as to the devastation and destruction he has brought to people's lives, or will it be swept under the rug as they hail goodbye to their king?

#10 Mr. Marr: When will Jesus Christ be lifted up and given standing ovations from the Baltimore church body instead of Carl Stevens? Do you believe that day will come?

Please, Mr. Marr. I posted these questions sir without malice to you. I am not under GGWO's covering so I addressed you as Mr. Marr rather than Pastor Marr, or Elder Marr. Please honor me as a fellow servant of the Lord and answer these questions. You could again have your maiden tattletale post your answers for you. Do you think we believe that the two of you don't have contact anymore other than that which involves your legal case with her? That's the spin on Factnet, sir.

twoedgedsword

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

TES - I suuposed some would call it a "guilty conscience. I prefer to believe it is the Holy Spirit "convicting me to "own up" and ask forgiveness.

Icertainly hope it is not "a few hundred." But only God knows and he will be the once to reveal and convict.

Sorry fo rusing this for the wrong purpose, but wanted to answer your post.

I echo your ten questions.

Blessinsg,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Excellent questions 2es...

[kbneedspeace (kbneedspeace)]

question for Mr. Marr echoed here --
#6. Mr. Marr: When will the church body be told of the doctrines that were false?
-- it sure would help clear up much of the confusion we ex-TBS/GGWO "body" members have.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

TES

First of all, I am not Pastor Marr's "tattletale."
Its no news to anybody here on Factnet that he is a personal friend of mine in addition to being my attorney. My life seems to be an open book of people's opinions of late!! Its with great sadness to me that our relationship has changed based on people from Factnet posting that I can't be trusted if I have any contact with Pastor Marr.
I stopped the bible studies at my home feeling rather trapped in the middle. Phone calls and emails to me telling me that if I continued with the bible studies after Christmas which I was considering doing, then they would no longer associate with me. Others from FWM told me the same thing. Then there's the crowd from GGWO who won't fellowship with me (old friends of mine) if I go to FWM.

So, while I've been laid up and under the weather I've had a lot of time to do some thinking and praying. What I came up with is that I am not going to let anyone dictate to me anymore who comes to my home and who doesn't. I have a very good relationship with the Holy Spirit and that is the only "voice" I will be listening to from now on.

TES, since you said you've lurked on Factnet for awhile, why would you post questions for Pastor Marr when he doesn't read Factnet? Did you go to the Tacoma website? There's a link on the Sandy Cove thread where you can peruse all the documents there, not just Pastor Ellis's statements about CHS's legacy being preserved. In fact I'll probably be posting some of those documents here on Factnet myself. Too many people have a lot of questions they want answered and the answers they seek are at the website if they really want to see them.

Why don't you get in touch with Pastor Marr yourself and ask him those same questions? Are you chicken? Or are you afraid that the Holy Spirit would speak through him?? Then of course, you'd be accountable before God.

Since you are so "watchful" over my personal life, and deem it your right to post speculations about it, I think as a busybody you'd have more important things to do with your time than "TATTLETALING" my business on here. Especially since you're a liar.

Maria

[twoedgedsword (twoedgedsword)]

Mr. Marr I wrote on 2/18 and asked you a series of
pertinent questions above, compiling my list from
threads on Factnet and my connections in and out of
Greater Grace. I don't believe for one second that
you don't read these posts. I think these people and
me deserve some answers. Thank you.

Maria T. I read your reply and it doesn't phase me in
the least. Just the fact that nobody else came to
your defense here speaks for itself. You are still
tied to Marr's apron strings. Why don't you just do
us all a favor and post his answers for us? I've
lurked for 2 weeks awaiting a response. Surely
he has some kind of comment to make about this thread.
He can't go on ignoring things hoping they will just
go away.

Have him post his email addy then if he is too timid
to post his replies on here.

Twoedgedsword

[maria_t (maria_t)]

TES
This is the last post of yours that I am going to acknowledge. I don't have to explain myself to you or to anyone actually. I don't care what you post to me, or about me. I've been kicked before on here and I can take it as well as dish it out.

Your posting style to me sounds like you enjoy baiting people. You may be amused in doing it, but its not amusing to me at all. I don't need validation from other posters on here as to whether I'm being upfront and honest. However, since you are the new poster on the block, you do.
And I noticed, NOBODY backed you up either. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

Have a great day tormenting yourself.

Maria

[arguendo (arguendo)]

did?

[hodeuon (hodeuon)]

Twoedgedsword,

Would you consider emailing me?

Hodeuon
Hodeuon at yahoo dot com

(Message edited by hodeuon on June 23, 2005)

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"did?"

I am missing your point Arguendio....no anger, no confrontation...just missing it.