Delegated authority etc [Archive]

boss_martian (boss_martian)

01-09-2005, 05:07 PM

Delegated authority - a blatant lie perpetrated by Carl H. Stevens in which he says that he speaks directly for God and has the authority of God delegated to him. This has done more to keep Carl in power than any other aspect of the GGWO cult, since he has successfully planted the idea that to disagree with Carl is to disagree with God.

Geographical will of God - a Carl Stevens lie where he says that God intends for the believer to live in a certain area of the country. The geographical area usually corresponds to wherever the abused person will be of the most use to Carl. If someone in GGWO is asking too many questions, then God's geographical will is usually someplace far away from Carl. If a person is rich, then God's geographical will is close to Carl, usually with their head firmly parked in Carl's ass.

Rebound - A Carl Stevens lie in which Carl can do whatever he wants and then say God has forgiven him. The matter must then never be spoken of again. Note that this "special annointing" only applies to Carl 100% of the time. Lesser mortals are subject to the will of Carl.

One Pastor-Teacher (One Abuser-Liar) - Yet another complete lie by Carl in which he says that you can only have one pastor teacher and that it is a sin to follow another pastor-teacher. This is especially sinful if you are wealthy or of some personal use to Carl.

Bema Seat - Carl Stevens lie in which he asserts that he will intercede on your behalf with God instead of Jesus. This is a very important doctrine since you wouldn't want to say anything against the very man that is going to provide your salvation! Another clever facet of Stevens doctrine that serves to keep him in power since no one would dare question God's Man.

These are the lies used by Carl to gain and maintain power over GGWO Nation. I have to admit, these doctrines have been very sucessful. After all, even in the face of solid evidence of shameless abuse, there are those that believe that Carl is untouchable and must not be opposed!

susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)

01-09-2005, 06:10 PM

Thanks Boss! Your explanations were most helpful

God bless

Susanna

louise_connolly (louise_connolly)

01-09-2005, 06:25 PM

Let's also remember that Carl has reared a large number of men (GGWO elders) who are expert in using the same techniques to control and exploit sincere Christian folks. Carl is on his way out but the elders are fighting to keep their meal tickets in good working order.

GGWO pretend pastors if they are sincere about repenting need to get out of the Bible business and leave pastoring to people who care about people. They have nothing to offer any of us but their self serving agendas. If you have newly left get away from all of these pretend pastors and x pretend pastors. Find help from Christian folks who know about cults but were not part of your cult.

susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)

01-09-2005, 06:26 PM

Could you also explain how the delegated authority- teaching has been used in the branch ministries? I.e. does Carl "give" it to other pastors or do they have it in a lesser degree? I know that CHS has been called "the pastor of all other pastors" in GG and that he is only accountable to God. But it has never really been clear to me to what extent this "delegated authority" was extended to other pastors under him. E.g. if a pastor disagreed with Carl, did he not have the same authority as he would have had, had he agreed with him? Are the branch pastors also "always right" in everything they teach just as Carl claims to be, or is this something that Carl has reserved for himself?

I'm sure that all this has been discussed already many times over, I've just missed all of it and don't really have time to go through all the previous discussions to find the relevant information.

Susanna

helenaofmass (helenaofmass)

01-09-2005, 07:46 PM

I am curious about this as well. (Susannas post) BTW Boss excellent explanation.
I have understood that the affiliates are on their own yet there seems to be some mixed messages as to what that means.
Do they also have to send money to Baltimore?
Also I am wondering that if the affiliates walk away how does that affect their tax exempt status?
Do they need to reapply as new churches?
I am confused as to how someone who "bought" their degree can attain tax exempt status as a church? Do credentials not matter? How can they ordain other pastors?
Forgive my confusion, I am a little slow. Age and all you know lol

terra_cognita (terra_cognita)

01-09-2005, 07:59 PM

Delegated authority, rebound and the bema seat are legitimate terms. CHS would add to their meaning so he could manipulate and control people. He would twist them to create a dependency to him. They also served in producing people who wouldn't use critical thinking skills but unspoken loyalty. They were used to magnify his position, his power and influence. Below are GGWO glossary paraphrases with some comments:
Delegated authority - is evident everywhere in life. It is one that has responsibility or authority over a person or group of people. One's boss at work would be considered a delegated authority. The authority is supposed to be a guide, an example, and a teacher. They are to care for the individual and serve in a way that profits the individual. They are not to lord over or have dominion over a person. Even though CHS said he never told people what to do, he did so both directly and indirectly. He would speak about people in small groups and raps if he felt they weren't doing what he thought they should be doing. People did what he felt they should do so they wouldn't get on his bad side. He exercised dominion over people's lives.
Geographical will of God: referred to the exact geographical location for the believer coupled with the right local assembly under the right pastor-teacher. Only then can the believer learn about the nature and character of God and His Word. This manipulates people not to leave from CHS's church for valid reasons, such as accepting job promotions, marrying, called to another church or affiliate church, going back home to help a sick relative, etc. CHS hated it when a person would leave and go to an affilate church. He was the father, they were the sons. They could never be as good a him. Because he believed he was annointed, there was no better church to attend than his. This faulty doctrine was coupled with the faulty doctrine one pastor-teacher.
Rebound - just means to quickly recover from failure by confessing one's sin and moving forward in truth. This doctrine is aligned with being "confessed up-to-date"; meaning that if you confessed your sin, you were right with God and no one could bring it up. It's the "nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, you can't touch me" doctrine.
Bema seat - is the judgment seat or reward seat for believers before Christ (ICor.3:10-15; Rom14:10,12. CHS did preach that he would present/introduce believer's before Christ and even intimated that he would say how good the person's attendance, outreach, etc. was. This of course is ludicrous and another control/guilt tactic. It also magnified the importance of CHS

kathleen (kathleen)

01-09-2005, 08:21 PM

Many many questions Susanna.
No one can figure it out. Not you nor me or these fellows posting here.....
So let it go.....
simple always makes life simple.....
Trust in Jesus. He is the One.....
Only One

san (san)

01-09-2005, 08:26 PM

These terms bring back many memories. They were taught on a regular basis.
What about Devine Intervention? I remember that being used allot. Do they still sell Throne Words?
I believe that all branches were to tithe to Home base.

terra_cognita (terra_cognita)

01-09-2005, 08:26 PM

In most cases affiliate pastors believe CHS is their pastor-teacher. Affiliate churches are autonomous. Baltimore (home base) has no direct authority over them. Many of them magnify CHS and promote his tapes, booklets, grace hour, etc. Affliliation is where one recognizes that the "vision" originates and materializes from CHS and homebase. An affiliate (pastor and church) embraces the doctrine and the "vision". CHS, his doctrine and the vision are inseparable. If one is to affiliate, then one is loyal. If CHS questions an affiliate's degree of loyalty, then he will speak about the pastor and church publicly. He will use direct and indirect means to produce the loyalty he deserves. This is a form of manipulation. Those he likes, he promotes with accolades and allows them to speak in raps and services. An affiliate will always know if he isn't pleasing CHS. This produces false guilt and the tendancy to produce more "CHS worship" and pump up CHS and home base at his church. The affiliate will probably also give more to Grace Hour, so he can be in the good graces of CHS. An affiliate pastor is a graduate of TBS/GGWO schools and has to pass a GGWO ordination exam. If they didn't go to one of the schools, then they have to be competent with CHS doctrine and loyalty to CHS.

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

01-09-2005, 09:29 PM

Delegated Authority
http://www.pbministries.org/Theology/Davis%20Huckabee/Sermons%20To%20Baptist%20Churches/ch03_the_authority.htmhttp://www.theexaminer.org/volume6/number1/delegate.htm
http://www.ubdavid.org/mailboxfolder/mailbox_four/mailbox_four_pages/pmcymf11.html
http://www.xenos.org/classes/leadership/authority.html
http://home.hiwaay.net/~becraft/Delegationbrf.htm

The above are links about delegated authority none have anything to do with GG.It is legitimate but is twisted by Stevens to suit his need to control people.

Bema Seat
http://www.allaboutgod.com/Bema-Seat.htm
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/bema.html
http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/70-10-7.htm
http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq442.html
Bema Seat is also legimate..but the pastor is not in between the believer and God.

Rebound is just a term by GG. But 1 John 1:9 is for the believer because we will be sinners until we die. Thus we do have a provision for when we sin although the Bible clearly teaches that we should strive to avoid sinning the same sin over and over again.
Mt 18:21, John 8:7-11, 1 Cor 15:56, Gal 2:17 and many more

Pastor/teacher

http://www.realtime.net/~wdoud/topics/pastors.html
http://www.thebiblespeaks.org/sonlight/november/04.htm
http://www.ldolphin.org/mentors.html
Pastor teacher is also used in many churches. The problem is that GG uses legimate terms to benefit their own agenda.Dont' let what GG twisted confuse us. There are many legimate terms used by Stevens. The problem is he formed like clay to be able to control "his ministry" and "his people". It is a shame.

Hope some of this helps Susanna

(Message edited by mercyreigns on January 09, 2005)

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

01-09-2005, 09:35 PM

It's interesting that someone
stretched out this thread.
Apparently it's threatening
to them.

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

01-09-2005, 09:42 PM

Bob if you are referring to me I didn't mean to make the post so long. I just found it interesting myself that there were so many other churches and articles on the same subjects and was sharing them.

I too have many questions and have been searching out answers. I have only been in GG and am exploring and seeking for a true fellowship when I move.

I don't want to get caught up again in the likes of an organization like GG. I want to find a real church with true fellowship.

Still the same links but I shortened the post.

(Message edited by mercyreigns on January 09, 2005)

helenaofmass (helenaofmass)

01-09-2005, 10:58 PM

Thank you TC I have a much clearer understanding of the "chain of command" so to speak. I appreciate your answering me.

Helena

anon_brief (anon_brief)

01-09-2005, 11:16 PM

Kathleen, rest assured that many here have figured it and YOU out.

We have noticed your wistfully sentimental (and always lengthy) attempts to derail the momentum of threads which are exposing both the lies perpetuated by GG and the charlatans involved.

Cat got your tongue?

Or did you hope to discredit Susanna by implying that her questions are generated by her lack of trust in Jesus?

Or was it an attempt to subtly convince the new readers that those of us who question GG in anyway are spiritually inferior?

Nice try. Didn't work.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

01-09-2005, 11:54 PM

Nancy, I wasn't refering to the length of posts.
It has to do with difficulty in reading the thread
because it is stretched sideways so that all the
words won't stay on the screen as you're trying
to read it. We've encountered this in the past,
and perhaps the 'moderator' will fix it at some
point. In the mean time I'll keep hitting return
after short lines so that it will stay more readable.

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

01-10-2005, 12:24 AM

o lol so sorry. mine doesn't read like that so I misunderstood. please forgive

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

01-10-2005, 03:36 AM

Very good thread! It is good to see
the definitions of these twisted
doctrines spelled out.

This tread can really be a terrific
help to those who are healing.

Excellent!

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on January 09, 2005)

susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)

01-10-2005, 08:55 AM

Thank you so much for your answers! I have one more question...

I just re-connected with one of my old friends here in Sweden (She was kicked out, otherwise she wold not be talking to me, for they have all been told that I'm a backslider now, you know how it is...).
She told me that it has actually been said from the pulpit that the people should listen to the pastor for what he says are the very words of God. Also it was said that the pastor has never made a mistake in his preaching.
Is this a general teaching that is heard in other branches as well, or is it peculiar to the Swedish?

Susanna

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

01-10-2005, 09:06 AM

In Baltimore we are told that any pastor speaking from The Pulpit is speaking directly from God.

And believe me it confused so many people because we have pastors in baltimore that don't all teach the same.

susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)

01-10-2005, 09:11 AM

(Lol)

How funny! So what did they say? That God changed His mind once a week and twice every Sunday?

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

01-10-2005, 11:42 AM

Stevens said that any teaching that wasn't the same as he taught was to be reported. Anyone hired in MBCS had to believe and teach the same teachings that Stevens taught or they would be fired.

This is not here say, because I heard it myself many times in raps and even from the pulpit.

I dare any staff pastor to say it is a lie or challenge me on this.

overseas (overseas)

01-10-2005, 01:10 PM

Quote: "In Baltimore we are told that any pastor speaking from The Pulpit is speaking directly from God."

What about Jesus and apostles that did not have pulpits ? Or it is about 'pulpit spirit' meaning that they are infaillible when they speak dressed in suits + ties ? To link God truth to one's person that is heresy. I am not in US but in my country some people have the same problem. It is easy to see that some ministers take preaching 2x a week like a joke or easy job. But to stand up in the Name of the Lord and to teach His Saints - that's a terrible job for any honest christian.
Burn the pulpit. Keep the Bible.

kathleen (kathleen)

01-10-2005, 03:01 PM

The story is told of a mountain climber, who was desperate to conquer Mount Aconcagua in Argentina. He initiated his climb after years of preparation. Wanting all of the glory for himself, he went up alone. He started climbing and it was becoming later, and later. He did not prepare for camping so he decided to keep on going. Soon it got dark... very dark. Night fell with heaviness at a very high altitude. Visibility was zero. Everything was black.

There was no moon, and dark clouds covered the stars. As he was climbing a ridge, he reached about a 100 meters from the top, he slipped and fell. Falling rapidly to the bottom he could only see blotches of darkness passing by. He felt a terrible sensation of being sucked down by gravity.

He kept falling.... and in those anguishing moments good and bad memories passed through his mind. He thought for sure that he would die. But then he felt a jolt around his waist that almost tore him in half. Yes, Like any good mountain climber he had staked himself with a long rope.

In those moments of stillness, suspended in the air with the rope tied around his waist he had no other choice but to shout, "HELP ME GOD," "HELP ME!"
All of a sudden, just like the good God that He is the man heard the answer to his prayer. A deep voice from heaven spoke..."What do you want me to do?" "SAVE ME", he pleaded. "Do you REALLY believe I can save you?" "OF COURSE, MY GOD"

God replied, "Then according to your faith, cut the rope." There was another moment of silence and stillness. The man gasped and just held tighter to the rope.

The rescue team says that the next day they found, a frozen mountain climber hanging strongly to a rope.... TWO FEET OFF THE GROUND.

Author Unknown

Do we really believe that God can save us? I know the rope is tangible. We can feel the rope. We think we know what our chances are with the rope. But, God has great and marvelous things planned for us. Whatever it is, why don't you let it go? CUT THE ROPE AND SIMPLY! TRUST IN HIM...
Psalms 125

This is in response to (anon_brief), sorry these stories bother you.

aurora (aurora)

01-10-2005, 04:44 PM

Nancy-
This is off the topic but I remember you saying you knew Guy & Lois Duff. Do you have any contact with them now? If so, I'm very curious about how they are and what they make of all that's happening.

susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)

01-10-2005, 06:01 PM

Yes, we should trust God. But if an evil man has a knife against your friends throat, you won't hesitate to help your friend in any way you can. You don't just "let go" and "trust in God".
To just stand by and watch your friend get killed would be the most irresponsible and evil thing you could possibly do.

Our sister's and brother's spirits, souls and bodies are being destroyed by an evil organisation. It would be as we were doing the destroying ourselves, if we just stood by and watched it happen.

Susanna

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

01-10-2005, 07:11 PM

Amen, Susanna. I have always believed that
we are equipped by God to be more proactive
than we think...we have been given powers of
discernment, as well as the Word, the Spirit
and a commission to save those who are lost.
I do believe we are to save all who are lost saved and unsaved alike.
I am not loving my brother if
I let him drown, while waiting for
God to tell me what to do...I already
know what to do, and in not
doing so, I sin.

anon_brief (anon_brief)

01-10-2005, 07:16 PM

Kathleen, you give yourself entirely too much credit. LOL.

yogi (yogi)

01-10-2005, 07:55 PM

Biblical response to "Kathleen's" post...

"And he said to Him, If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written, He will give His angels charge over you, and they will bear you up on their hands, lest you strike your foot against a stone. [Ps. 91:11,12.]
Jesus said to him, On the other hand, it is written also, You shall not tempt, test thoroughly or try exceedingly the Lord your God [Deut. 6:16]" (Matthew 4:6-7)

Yogi

maria_t (maria_t)

01-10-2005, 09:47 PM

Aurora I was at Paul Steven's church with my roommate a few months ago when Guy Duff came up and did the offering message. Afterwards, his wife distinctly told my roommate they were 'out' as far as Baltimore church was concerned.

However, that night, Guy Duff was right back down there exalting CHS and dribbling his syrupy "this ministry is wonderful" "God has given us a wonderful pastor".."without this Pastor we could have done nothing.." ....

we haven't seen or talked with them since. I don't know if Nancy Curra has or not.

Maria

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

01-10-2005, 11:04 PM

aurora email me. inmercyrejoice@hotmail.com

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

01-10-2005, 11:12 PM

The Duffs are a precious couple but I can't believe that Lois ever said they were out of Baltimore. She loves pr stevens and the "ministry" there.

They are very much a part of Baltimore. I am not sure why. But they have never been anything but kind to me and have been the only staff members who have visited me.

I know they are still in GG but I do love them dearly and know that they are very concerned about what is going on.

I know that things are very wrong in GG Baltimore but there are still precious people there. It is very difficult to just stop loving them (which of course I won't).

I trust the Lord in their lives as I do in ours and know that He is aware and they will hear his voice when it is His time.

maria_t (maria_t)

01-11-2005, 12:43 AM

Nancy what you posted is true.

I was stunned as well as my roommate when Lois told my roommate that morning at the end of that service that they were leaving. They were the last people I'd expect to have left that quick. She and my roommate talked for about 45 minutes too, it wasn't a quick conversation. They both have known each other for a long time, were on the same outreach/visitation team for years too.

It was quite a shock to Nancy when she said that to her, and she said it 2-3 times too. Maybe thats where she was at that morning. Who knows!!

Maria

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

01-11-2005, 02:22 AM

Just a thought about Pastor and Mrs. Duff.

I can only imagine how difficult this situation must be for them on an emotional and personal level. They have known CHS and his family for almost as long as anyone can recall. Pastor Duff is not just an affiliated pastor, for I think if Carl has anyone who truly loves him for himself it is Guy Duff. I think Pastor Duff has seen so much of the turmoils of the ministry over the years he may see the situations differently than we do.

Of course I do not know this for fact, but after meditating and praying about it, I think he loves Carl...not as a congregant but as a true personal friend. Maybe that is why they cannot leave him when they see him so diminished and his family divided yet again.

Again, I offer this by way of observation and speculation only.

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

01-11-2005, 06:27 AM

Roberta you are exactly right. He does see things differently and really is very wise and I trust him.

He is the only elder in GG that I trust at this point. He and Lois are like a mother and father to me.

aurora (aurora)

01-11-2005, 03:31 PM

Thank you for answering my question about the Duffs, Nancy (&Maria& Roberta).

I don't doubt that the Duffs have deep personal affection for CHS but Guy Duff has SEEN and WITNESSED (and thereby participated in, in my opinion) the abuse of power wielded against many folks in the church this past year- as an elder present at many of "the inquisitions". If they have a wait and see approach then I think that's actually: wait and watch the slaughter.

We must remember too that their son David is very much tied into the inner workings of the organization and therefore financially dependent on it. Guy and Lois live in their house still as far as I know so they are also financially dependent on, ultimately, CHS, don't you think?

So many many people gave their lives to "the ministry" and at retirement age have no home equity, investments (it was in "the kingdom") and maybe not much social security if they opted out of it as pastors. So, there could be more to the Duffs hanging in there than just personal affection, though I'm sure that must be a factor.

What are Steve and Vernon doing?

susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)

01-11-2005, 05:35 PM

Could someone please explain to me how the following "doctrines" are taught in GGWO:

Right with God
Will of God
Homebase vs. branch ministries
Mandatory soulwinning
Mandatory attendance (3 services a week)

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

01-11-2005, 11:23 PM

Home base in GG terms means that any pastor who started an affiliate (which they are called by stevens, not branch) has to have graduated from a stevens Bible college and believe and teach the same doctrines taught in GG Baltimore.

They are autonomous however (self governing). Some actually teach differently according to their understanding of the Word of God which is probably why some have disaffiliated.

"Mandatory soulwinning" is only for Bible college students. They must have one outreach as part of their Bible college training.

There has never been "mandatory soulwinning" for the general congregation only encouragement to go to outreach when we could.

Regardless of GG teaching the Bible is clear that we soul win. It should be by the leading of the Spirit and not by forcing Jesus down people's proverbial throats.

Street preaching was common in the Gospels and in Acts and whoever wanted to listen would. They also went house to house and if not received were told to brush the dust off their feet.

that is Bible.

Mandatory attendence has never been put on the congregation but there were times when stevens would elude that those who did not attend 3 services a week were not honoring the "pulpit" thus not honoring God.

Will of God is personal between the believer and God.

Right with God is just a term meaning not living in sin. That also is Bible and possibly one doctrine that in GG that is consistent with the Word and teachings in other churches.

(Message edited by mercyreigns on January 11, 2005)

aurora (aurora)

01-12-2005, 05:05 AM

a couple more things to add to the explanations given above-

Soulwinning or Outreach was always taught to us as the sure sign of being spirit-filled and truly living for God. I'm not talking about relational-type of being a light to those around us (though that was approved of) for that was never enough. You see, it was the reaching out with "the Body" that counted. You get points with the leadership, if they notice it.
My husband carried a cloud out of many a service because of feeling like he didn't measure up.

Regarding 3 services a week. We used to hear this: Sunday morning was for people who love the pastor, Sunday night was for people who love the Body, Wednesday night was for people who love God. This is a direct quote- an exortation that made you believe what they said: that every time your kids were too sick to go to church, it was a direct attack from Satan to keep you away from church!

I have known many a mother who would bring her child to church with a fever, ear infections and even vomiting kids INTO SERVICE! Why?? Because we must get under that spout where the blessing comes out. Under that beard of the high priest where the oil of annointing will flow into our lives!

UGH!

maria_t (maria_t)

01-12-2005, 05:06 AM

Aurora,
Steve Duff lives in NH. Still married to Michelle. He's "with" CHS. She is not. I know this because she was very close friends with my roommate.

Vernon Duff is married to Donna Samson, a RN that was in the Baltimore body for years. She's a really nice girl too. They left GGWO about a year after they got married. He was working for Lenox Laser at the time, not sure if he is there still, they "let go" of a few employees that left the ministry. I remember reading something about that on Factnet months ago. I don't know if he and Donna are still living in Baltimore.

Maria

maria_t (maria_t)

01-12-2005, 05:13 AM

Aurora,
Please email me.
Gracekid2@aol.com

Put "factnet friend" in the subject ok?

Maria

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

01-12-2005, 08:44 AM

Vernon is living in Florida. Don't underestimate the Duff's. He will not be led around by his nose. He hears from God and I am sure he will be making a very right decision for their lives soon.

And although some are financially dependent because of working on staff those who truly understand and believe and adhere to Jesus; if they believe these next Scripture verses will follow the Holy Spirit anywhere and have no problem walking away from anything for they will have no fear, they will trust God completely for their lives:

(And if they don't believe the following verses then they contradicted what they have taught. Time will tell who fears God and who is afraid of man, of who fears God or who depends on themselves. Time will tell.)

Matthew 6:27 And who of you by worrying and being anxious can add one unit of measure (cubit) to his stature or to the [w]span of his life?
28 And why should you be anxious about clothes? Consider the lilies of the field and learn thoroughly how they grow; they neither toil nor spin.
29 Yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his magnificence (excellence, dignity, and grace) was not arrayed like one of these. I Kings 10:4-7
30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and green and tomorrow is tossed into the furnace, will He not much more surely clothe you, O you of little faith?
31 Therefore do not worry and be anxious, saying, What are we going to have to eat? or, What are we going to have to drink? or, What are we going to have to wear?
32 For the Gentiles (heathen) wish for and crave and diligently seek all these things, and your heavenly Father knows well that you need them all.
33 But seek (aim at and strive after) first of all His kingdom and His righteousness (His way of doing and being right), and then all these things taken together will be given you besides.
34 So do not worry or be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will have worries and anxieties of its own. Sufficient for each day is its own trouble.

Phillipians 4:19 And my God will liberally supply (fill to the full) your every need according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus.

(Message edited by mercyreigns on January 12, 2005)

susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)

01-12-2005, 09:43 AM

I actually heard CHS say on ABD (1 John) that if a person didn't attend 3 services a week, (except if he had to work) he was living in sin.
I just wanted to check if it was something that was taught on a regular basis.

Susanna

louise_connolly (louise_connolly)

01-12-2005, 03:01 PM

Aurora:

Thanks for your post from 1-11 at 11:05 pm.
It reminds us all that the same mind contorl
baloney is still being used to control the
members. It is so mean how children and
women get treated at that place.

ralphwells (ralphwells)

01-12-2005, 03:10 PM

HRH - in Baltimore it was taught over the years that EVERYONE had to be on a Saturday outreach, or the were in sin. Many Mothers with children who could not be taken on outreach for one reason or another lived under bondage. This IS one of the guilts I tried to eleviate.

HRH and Susanna - The teaching on three service attendance became almost law in the ninties.

Many were slandered in regard to these two.

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

aurora (aurora)

01-12-2005, 05:01 PM

What chumps we were.
Some "finished work", huh?
It sure seems like we were the ones expected to finish the work...

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

01-12-2005, 11:23 PM

The Finished Work is never done?

maria_t (maria_t)

01-13-2005, 10:53 AM

Bob you are a scream!! I love what you posted.

Maria

maria_t (maria_t)

01-13-2005, 11:05 AM

Aurora...
We weren't chumps. Maybe thats what they thought, but God thinks far better of us. Don't forget that we were there for a reason. We were there as part of His plan for our lives. Many of us grew in the Lord while being there. For me, it "forced" me to learn how to depend upon God.

Just as God was faithful in leading us out, we must remain faithful to Him and not lose hope.
Just because in the natural it may seem that the Lord is doing "nothing" of any huge visible thing, many things have happened. Weekly people are leaving. They can't blame "us" on Factnet anymore. Its the Holy Spirit. He is speaking to people's hearts and if they choose to listen, He will lead them out. I watched it happen with a girl I knew who went there many years. All of a sudden she had "questions." Something wasn't "right." She called our house and started asking about things. I shared what I could and re-directed her back to the Lord to pray. She talked to others and made a decision to leave. It is God's doing things in His time that is the hardest for those of us who would have loved to have had things done sooner!!!!

As "ugly" as this stuff is, it is a good thing. This is going to have far more of a spiritual impact on people's lives. God is faithful to heal, we will recover from this and the Holy Spirit will lead those of us who do want a deeper walk with the Lord. Why is this a "good" thing?
Look what we have learned.

1. Not to depend on a man to hear God for us.

2. What is right biblically as far as what we
have been taught vs. what we now know is
the truth.

3. Trust no man, only the Lord.

4. For some, its a new experience in getting
to know the Lord personally for their lives,
not knowing "of" Him the way CHS used it to
obtain adulation for being "God's man."

Aurora, Some of us feel alive for the first time in years even though we had a walk with the Lord...we are experiencing LIFE!!! FELLOWSHIP!!
TRUTH!! REAL LOVE...GOD'S LOVE!!!

My friend, we are most certainly not chumps!!
Be encouraged. God is really doing a new thing.

Maria

susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)

01-27-2005, 04:49 PM

I found two interresting passages in Rev. in which Jesus speaks to the church of Ephesus.

Rev 2:2 And you have tested those who say that they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars

This is pretty obvious. The early church kept itself pure by testing everything they heard. It would have been great if they had continued to do so...
Most of us left GG when we realized the the men who claimed to be "apostles" i.e. messengers from God, were in fact liars.

But the next one is really interresting:
Rev 2:6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

I listened to p. Chuck Smith and according to him the "Nicolaitans" refers to the "doctrine" of a mediator: a man is needed between you and God. This is obviously practiced in the Catholic Church, but it is also found in another form: shepherding. In shepherding a pastor takes the role of a "mediator" between you and God and tells you what God's will is for your life. I.e. whom you are supposed to marry, what to buy or sell, where you should live etc. As we all know, GG practices shepherding but calls it "delegated autority".
According to the Bible GOD HATES IT!!!!

Jesus died for our sins and when He did so, the veil that hung in front of the Holy of Holies was torn apart. Now we have access any time to the Throne of God. No middlemen are needed, for God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ, is our mediator.

Susanna

overseas (overseas)

01-27-2005, 06:31 PM

Dear Susanna, sorry to bump in. But see below my comments on shepherding as I came to same conclusion with you recently. But thank you for the Nicolaitans issue, very helpful. I am far away in Eastern Europe, still learn a lot of what you people share here. God bless.

The problem is with pastors positioning themselves between God and believers. Some do that for power, money, control. Some do that because they were taught so in seminaries. Some pastors notice believers do not look for God or have a hard time in understanding God so they sincerely step in as a tangible/ hard to ignore substitute for God.

Let's have some (serious) fun with the illustration of shepherd and the flock. Some pastors act like the shepherd has to cut the grass and feed the flock, not take the flock to the field and let it feed itself. Some pastors ask that the flock stays 'three in row' when they feed. Or ask all the flock to chew at the same pace. Or argues with the sheep producing black wool and demand only white wool from all sheep. Or establish an optimum size and weight for sheep and ask everyone to conform. Or establish a rigid schedule for feeding.

I say pastors are to facilitate our life with God not replace it. They do not have to produce God response for us but teach us how to ask God better. They should make sure we practice our faith and produce fruit that fit a wide range of good fruit, not dictate us a special fruit as mandatory.

Say a practical example. My church pastor starts a study from John Gospel on Friday night. He asks me to attend. I do not and explain that I studied that hard 1 year ago and that presently I am very interested in Romans. He asks me politely to have a short discussion on some hard topics from John just to make sure I don't go heretic in some difficult points. We discuss and agree on same interpretation on those points. Then he only asks me to come some times to the John study group to help with the study cause there are many attendants and he cannot take all questions from them. I promise I come at least 1 hour every two weeks. Then my pastor recommends me some good books and commentaries on Romans and prays with me for God to lead me in the study.
That is what I call a normal relationship.

susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)

01-27-2005, 07:24 PM

Dear overseas, no need to apologize; any and all comments are welcomed here. And I agree with you about shepherding, it is not the biblical way of dealing with things.

Where in Eastern Europe do you reside? (Or can you make it known?)

I find your example an interesting one. Personally I attend the meetings I want and have time to. And if anyone has a problem with that, that is their business. Never again will I be forced to attend meetings just because someone has decided that it is my "Christian duty" to give standing ovations to a man who has volutarily taken the office of a preacher and is supported by my money. No thanks.

Luke wrote (17:9-10) "Does he thank that servant because he did all the things that were commanded him? I think not. So likewise you, when you have done all these things which you are commanded, say "We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do".

This is the attitude a pastor should have. Not the desire to receive the praises of men (which by the way means that there is very little for them to look forward to in Heaven; Matt 6)

Susanna

karen (karen)

01-28-2005, 12:05 AM

I just read David Henke's e-letter for this week and I found this quote significant for those of us who were and are enslaved by the ministry:

“Codependency is an irrational, slavish, and ultimately damaging dependence upon persons, things, or actions…. The concept of codependency today has expanded far beyond that original definition. It now means that, whatever the reason, two people have become so completely enmeshed that their personal identities are damaged or reduced. Each spouse’s identity derives from the partner, not from the self” (Passages of Marriage, by Minirth, Newman and Hemfelt, page 127).

I think codependency does apply to our situation, but one has to understand the way we were brought to this state. As David mentions, the "touch not the Lord's anointed" teaching is one of the means. However, the other significant teaching employed by Carl Stevens is a distortion of Jesus' admonition to "die to oneself." This is defined as "the Cross" in the ministry and is, in my opinion, his most effective tool in producing emotionally unhealthy followers. Members are taught that they CANNOT have boundaries, CANNOT say "no," CANNOT have a self. We were taught that to assert one's self is to be living in one's Adamic nature. Through this teaching, believers are able to be manipulated without any defense. (I remember giving up my car in the ministry, because I was so weary of having to drive people all over creation at any hour, day or night. If I ever showed an unwillingness to do so, I was told that I was not submitting to the Cross. So it was easier for me to walk or take the bus.) Until this core doctrine is shown to be unbiblical, many believers will not be able to break away from the ministry's control.

Can anyone address this issue?

boss_martian (boss_martian)

01-28-2005, 12:12 AM

Karen,

Part of what you wrote sent chills down my spine. I got about an hour of lecture one afternoon from my GGWO friend on "Adamic nature" and "submitting to the cross". The discussion came up in 2003 during Convention when my friend was explaining away her exhaustion as being "Adamic nature" because she had about 20 people in her home and it appeared that she was killing herself to take care of all of them.

karen (karen)

01-28-2005, 12:30 AM

Yes, Boss, it is chilling. Moreover, Pastor taught that if we were walking in the Spirit, we would be "quickened." Anyone who admitted to weariness in well-doing was making an announcement that he/she was walking in the flesh. Denial, guilt and fear--my constant companions while in the ministry.

lee (lee)

01-28-2005, 12:34 AM

could you guys continue
this on another thread
so we don't have to scroll
so much?
thanks!

san (san)

01-28-2005, 02:59 AM

Lee
Did you get my pictures?

overseas (overseas)

01-28-2005, 09:48 AM

Susanna, I live in Romania and we have religious freedom here. I attend an evangelical church. God bless.

susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)

01-28-2005, 07:42 PM

How strange that you have to scroll so much, Lee. I don't have that problem. Let us know if the problem perists, then we'll begin a new one.

Overseas,
I am originally from Sweden/Finland and I know that Romania has religious freedom, especially after the dictator fell (I don't know how to spell his name). I just thought that you might still have some family in GG and you didn't want to reveal too much about yourself to protect them from the revenge of GG. Many have said that they feel obligated to do so.

Thanks for your reply though

Susanna

overseas (overseas)

01-31-2005, 08:46 AM

Susanna, no problem with GG in any way. I am not aware about any GG churches here. It's just the shepherding doctrine and pastor's role are a hot issue here too; I got a special interest in that in the last time. And I found your experience is clarifying a lot of things.

susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)

02-04-2005, 10:22 PM

I spent January in Sweden with my family and during that time I met one of my former friends from GG. She told me that my engagement to Ira was questioned since he was not from GG. They never told it to me directly, but I remember feeling their disapproval. It was said that it was impossible that it was God's will since he attended an other church. Even when we met at the European Conference at Geneva, and became good friends instantly, it was not considered a "biblical relationship" (I don't really know how else to put it) since he was an "outsider".

Also when I sent e-mails to all my friends and told them that GG is a cult(ic church), p. Mikael told everyone not to read them since I wasn't following God anymore and had fallen away.

That they considered that they had the right to make such claims shows how little they know God, since we knew that it was God's will that we got married and at the time I wrote the e-mails I was studying at a Bible College (which means that it was impossible that I had "fallen away").

What doctrine gives a pastor or any other congregant the right to "know" the will of God for another?

Susanna

fisherman (fisherman)

02-04-2005, 10:41 PM

No doctrine gives a pastor or any other congregant the right to "know" the Will of God for another.

Its not a doctrine of the bible.
Its a Carl doctrine. Made up in his mind.

fisherman (fisherman)

02-04-2005, 10:47 PM

Susanna even though one attends a bible college doesn't mean that haven't fallen away. Not meaning you specifically. Many attend bible colleges these days that have absolutely no clue of how to have a personal relationship with God.

He is the only one who will tell you what His Will is for your life. Nobody else has that right.

susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)

02-09-2005, 05:27 AM

Fisherman,
My point was that the whole congregation was told that I wasn't follwing God anymore since I had criticized GG and joined another church and what I had to say was not be trusted since I had "fallen away". I understand what you are saying though, since I saw a whole lot of that too.

BTW I know that it is not sane for a pastor to think that he knows what we should do with our personal lives. I was mainly wondering what specific doctrine is taught in GG to justify such behaviour?

Susanna

herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)

02-09-2005, 12:23 PM

There is really no interest in justifying their behavior. Words -- even scripture -- can be used to support whatever idea one wants to put forth...you just have to find the right verse and tweak it until it fits your "doctrinal stand."

susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)

03-09-2005, 05:04 AM

Let's talk about grace for a moment.
What is grace? It is God's unmerited favor, extended to those whom He choses. According to the Bible God gives grace to those who are humble, while He resists the proud (Prov 3:34; Jas 4:6, 1 Pet 5:5).

Can grace be misused? Since Paul spends an entire chapter (Rom 6) to discuss the issue, it seems to be a great temptation for believers. Jude writes about false teachers in his short letter and deals briefly with the issue of grace:
Jude 4
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Last Sunday our pastor preached from Jude and he explained how these false teachers abused grace:

1. Instead of making their lifestyles match their doctrines, they made their doctrines match their lifestyles.
2. They used grace a lisence to live in lewdness without accontability.

Does any of this sound familiar?

We have all heard that we should "give grace". But if God has chosen to give His grace only to those who are humble before Him, is it right and lawful for us to "give grace" to a person who is caught up in pride and in need of repentance?

Susanna

sidethorn (sidethorn)

03-09-2005, 03:25 PM

Sounds all too familiar Susanna. In the years I've been at GGWO, I haven't seen an ounce of humility in Carl Stevens and his henchmen. They have used grace as a license to sin and abuse people while putting those same people under legalistic laws that aren't even supported by Scripture. What a double standard!! Bondage for all who aren't in Carl's favorite clique while they do anything they want with no accountability whatsoever. True grace and salvation is for those who will HUMBLE themselves before God, confess they are sinners, and ask Jesus into their hearts to forgive AND remove their sins. Maybe these so called men need to reconsider this!!!

brie (brie)

03-09-2005, 04:14 PM

Interesting about knowing what God's will is. One of the major conflicts and points of argument I have had with my family is that they view anyone who has left GG as going against God's will and the ministry God called them to. I would always counteract with, "How do you know what God's will is for any individual person? Maybe at one time, they were called here, but now, because they do not condone what is going on, God has 'called' them elsewhere." Of course, I got nowhere with this argument.