Exit Strategy %96 how do I get out of GGWO

[Jack Leonard (65.96.56.161)]

Leaving GGWO is not easy but you are not alone.

First, in almost all cases, you will be marked, criticized, and ridiculed for your decision, sometimes from the pulpit or in raps (relative to their reputation in GGWO). This is damage control; the elders don’t want others to follow your example. It hurts, however, to be run down by leaders you respected and served.

Secondly, you may have close friends or family members who are still loyal to GGWO, so leaving creates conflicts. At a time when you need the support of family and friends, that support will be compromised.

Thirdly, there may be financial considerations if you work for GGWO or a GGWO-affiliated business. Many pastors and missionaries are in this situation. You may be sick of losing members and reputation, not for the cross of Christ or anything you have done, but because of the antics of Carl Stevens, but you cannot get out without splitting your church and/or losing essential financial support. Unfortunately, GGWO does not “equip the saints” with translatable job skills, so finding a good job after working for the ministry is not easy.

Fourthly, you will struggle with anger. You will be angry at yourself, for being duped for so long. You will be angry at those who brought you into this ministry, angry at those who will not join you in leaving, and angry at those who leave with you because they cannot help you with your emotions. You will be angry at God, for it appears He did not shepherd you or protect you from this abuse and He is not making it easy to get out.

Fifthly, you are likely to be haunted by warnings and stories you heard from the pulpit, especially as you face difficulties. You will wonder if you are deceived or have been demonized. You will worry about cancer of the tongue and other life-threatening diseases. Leaving any church fellowship is hard, even under the best circumstances, but now every little set-back and every conflict will carry overtones of disaster and deception as you are troubled by memories of pulpit stories of what happens to those who “leave the geographical will of God” or who “turn against their spiritual father.”

Sixth, you will be tempted to go back. There are many pressures. I found myself without a job, with a severe drop in income. I lived at one end of the state but had to enroll my kids in school at the other end of the state. I commuted each weekend to see them. Every setback brought renewed rounds of fear and self-doubt; had I really offended God by touching his “anointed?” Finally, although I had left GGWO, I had not left the standards and model of GGWO in my heart. I still very much believed the message that a church was not a good church unless they did bus ministry, blitzes, world-wide missions, bible college, and so on. Naturally, this standard caused me to unfairly judge all other churches. Many have gone back for this one reason. It is important to be open to what else God is doing in the world.

Knowing all these things in advance can make getting out a little easier. Forewarned is forearmed! Here are some things we did to make it through the first 2-3 years.

First, we talked to everyone (whether they wanted to hear it or not)! Some turned out to be great friends and others never spoke to us again! We weren’t sure who wanted to hear our story, but we needed to tell it so everyone had to listen. Some were offended by what we said. I’m sure we left others bored, wearied, exasperated, and perplexed. Lee and I often left social gatherings saying to ourselves, “Oh no; we’ve done it again! We can’t seem to get off this subject and we drive everyone crazy.” The important thing is that we did talk. We didn’t isolate ourselves. We shared our story, looking for feedback, justification, sympathy, and help.

We found that the conventional church may not be much help. At one point in our journey, we attended a large church that did not require membership. To their great credit, they recognized that we were not there to join up or get involved; we were there to heal. They left us alone; we just needed a resting place. On the other hand, individual believers were a super support, as we described above.

In our many conversations, we bumped into others who also had stories and information related to GGWO. As a result, our knowledge of the depth and breadth of the crimes grew and that was important. There were many reasons to go back, especially when it got really lonely or tough. Sometimes we would learn of others who had “repented” and returned to the fold. As our understanding of the abuses of this ministry increased, our decision to leave was firmed up.

One thing that Lee and I had to do was shore up our faith. My experience is that individuals who have some prior experience with Christianity, before GGWO, seem to have some resources and reference points to which they can return when they abandon GGWO. They have a faith that pre-dates GGWO so they can “return to the roots.” Christians who have only known GGWO, however, often have nothing left to believe in. In their emotional rejection of GGWO, they “throw the baby out with the bathwater,” so they seem to lose all faith. It often takes a long time for the Spirit to heal and rebuild confidence in God. Thankfully, Jesus is a true shepherd who is not about to give up what he purchased at such a great price. He is the author and finisher of our faith.

Coming out brought some surprising revelations. I thought we were people of great faith; after all, weren’t we in the most advanced word ministry in the world? Instead, we found ourselves weak, fearful, double-minded, and confused. The problem was that our faith was in the words of Carl Stevens, not in Jesus. The messages of Carl Stevens still played over and over again like a tape recorder in our heads, which made it difficult to hear the gentle counsel and comfort of the Holy Spirit. We had to find simple books that did nothing but encourage. Here’s one example: the daily devotional book of Robert Schuller called Tough-Minded Faith for Tender-Hearted People. We read one page each day for months and then prayed together for a few minutes.

Another revelation was the best one. We found, amidst all the tears, loneliness, bitterness, rejection, anger at God and man, that Jesus is really all that the Bible says He is. I really walked away from God for a while – no more church attendance, no more early morning devotions, no more deliberate prayer, and certainly no more interest in serving God. Guess what? He gave me some space and then came after me when I was ready to talk. My faith was almost non-existent and He rekindled the spark and refueled the flame. I love Him more than ever now, because He stood by us, defended us, and opened up many new and unexpected doors for us. He was alive when we were dead. He is my best friend.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

Thank you Jack

[Dave Carson (65.234.187.220)]

Thank you, Jack. If someone is reading this and thinking of leaving, one of the greatest resources you have is FACTNet. There are people here who have walked that road before and will walk with you as well. Before the Internet started to break down the walls of silence, those who left generally had no one at all who would understand what they had experienced. One point Jack made that I think is important is that most "regular" churches will have a hard time understanding where you're coming from. That's OK, because Jesus knows exactly how you feel and the rest of us have a pretty good idea. Don't be afraid to ask for help. Between all of us, there are many connections to resources. To protect yourself, you might be safer contacting known people via e-mail to start. I for one promise to protect the identity of anyone who contacts me.

minutus@gte.net

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

Thank you Jack,

Invaluable words.. words I didn't realize how much I needed to hear...

Thank you.

[Anonymous (63.27.22.87)]

Very insightful post sir! However, I have no friends outside of GGWO to weary with my tales about leaving. I am very lonely!

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

"Fourthly, you will struggle with anger"

You will also find you are angry with the few people in charge you admired, thought could be trusted, who knew the lies, told the lies and did nothing and said nothing. They did nothing but run when they could have helped others. Those who slid away to save themselves rather than expose the lies thus helping no one.

Helping no one but themselves.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

RJ,I could not have said it any better may I copy your post for another site?

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

63.27-

My heart goes out to you. Reach out to one of us; we will listen to your story.

-Karen

[Plaid (66.91.59.248)]

I'm not a great expert, but if I may offer my advice for those who spent thier whole lives in TBS/GGWO.

Leaving is hard and may involve total separation from your entire family. Take it one day at a time and expect to feel sad, lonely and hurt.

It also may involve serious mental health issues. Do not be afraid to seek help. I came away from TBS beleiving that seeking counseling was from a mental health professional was a sin. It took years of pain and reaching a very low point to finally get help.

Try not to make any quick decisions about personal relationships (marriage/living together/etc) until you have had time to heal. This too is from personal experience - seeking a "normal" life led me to a horrible marriage that ended in divorce several years later. Thankfully, I was given a second chance and was able to make much better decisions for myself the second time around.

If your job skills are nil, take full advantage of the federal student aid programs. You can fill out an application at online by searching "FAFSA" Lots of training programs qualify for financial aid and student loans.

It seems so long ago but when I think about it, I can hardly beleive what kind of crazy environment I grew up in, we all did.

[Nancy Curra (70.16.7.41)]

How do you get out? You just walk away, don't look back, Look to Jesus who led you there for Hid purpose and get on with you life in the Lord.

Jesus said Follow Me, whether thru the valley, rough terrain, mountains, wherever; it is all for His purpose to grow His child.

There is a grief and sadness and anger but they must be given over to God. All things are of God, He had His purpose fulfilled and being fulfilled.

It is that we may know Him the author and finisher of our faith. If I have no friends then I never had friends to begin with.

The only relationships that count for us are the ones where Christ is the central figure, our eyes and words on on and about Him.

This is how fruit is born in us. Rest in His love, trust in His Plan, keep your eye on Him, He has His eye on us.

God bless you all. I understand the hurt. But God is the balm for our hurts.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.135.187)]

I think it's important to take your path as an individual before God. Your own experience is not necessarily going to mirror that of the others who have left. I had the anger stage while I was still in. To me leaving was a great relief, and I was blessed to have others who had been in for many years that came out at the same time and lived within walking distance. We were able to have our own 'mutual admiration society'. We admired the Lord's work in each other.

I would suggest taking from those who post here what you sense fits for you. The Spirit will lead you in that if you seek Him for it. There are many kinds of help from individuals here and links to help elsewhere. There's also a lot of information about what you've been going through. Just like the Church in general, there are lots of disagreements here, but you'll find some things that will be clear and helpful to you.

Understand that spiritual abuse is a systematic thing. It may be expressed personally toward you or your family, but the intentions behind it are not personal. It's about control and greed. It's a system to prevent individuality in Christ. Don't give that individuality up elsewhere. Make it count for your Maker. He specifically designed you for His purposes. Go about finding out what they are.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Anon 152 yes you may copy it.

[Anonymous (68.33.132.7)]

Great thread. I wonder if I should copy and paste it in an e-mail to my friend in GGWO or is it too much? In other words, it makes good sense to me, but I wonder if it would turn someone off.

I'm looking for some advice if anyone has any.

Lots of love to you all,

Boss Martian
Never,
underestimate,
The Power of Love.
(You dig my new horseshoes?)
Never,
underestimate,
The Power of Love.
"Come here quickly he's lost his mind!"

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

how do you leave? you pack your bags and go like a big boy or girl and take responsibility for YOUR life and YOUR relationship with God.

[Roberta (151.203.157.69)]

Boss

It rather depends upon if your friend really wants to leave, or YOU want them to leave. Because if they are not energized and prepared to pay the price articulated here they are not ready, and to push them can make it worse. A delicate patience is required by friends and families that want to extracate loved ones from this organization.

It must completely be their own decision, unless you plan to kidnap and plan a deprogrammer session, which I am not in favor of except in extreme cases.

The delicate balance includes faith in God and believing prayer and total confidence and acceptance that God has a plan for that person that may indeed INCLUDE the GGWO experience. I do not considerer it wise to interfere on a personal level too energetically unless you are truly hearing the spirit of God and not your own desires.

I personally would work diligently to steer people away from GGWO, because I believe it is unhealthy to the point of being dangerous, but for one who is entrenched in the congregation needs understanding, care and a friend ready to help when God has readied them for leaving. I know that God prepared Scott and I slowly, revealing the truths and the way was clear when the time came for going.

If your friend is confused and still reisitant, they many not be ready. But rather than fear, pray, believing that God has already provided a way and is preparing her, and beg Him on your knnes, knowing he will answer you.

Often is is the friend or family member's faith that becomes the most challenged and sharpened in this situation.

Above all I caution you...it is a delicate patience on your part that is required.

[Anonymous (68.33.132.7)]

Of course, I would like to see EVERYONE out of this mess, but I understand the need for patience. It is very hard to do, though, and I often wonder about the cost of patience (more people sucked into GGWO, more people "on the fence" looking for that "final straw" to move them to action, more people living in fear, etc.). It is a delicate balancing act at best and then when you throw in "matters of the heart", well, a lot of self examination, second guessing (did I say too much, did I say enough, is any of this worth it?) and self doubt creeps in. I am constantly examining my own motives.

I think I have prayed more in the last couple of years than in the forty one that preceeded them. I ask for the wisdom to do the right thing, which may be do nothing at all. My unanswered prayer is "why Lord? Why have you led this person to me or me to them?" I wonder sometimes if I should just let it go. After all, my concern for GGWO comes in the form of concern for one person. Hopefully, that one person is not ME! No easy answers on that one.

I do believe that GGWO is one messed up place, with a liar and false idol in charge. But maybe I wouldn't be so fired up about it if it wasn't for "earthly" desire for another.

Boss Martian

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Please don't stop Boss.....whoever is the focus of your attention and possible affection needs you and your prayers. I know it seems hopeless sometimes. Not all of us have a faith that gets brighter and brighter as the moments tick by.....sometimes our faith has to rely on nothing more then a remembered word from God.

Lets not give up.

To 64.....you seem to look at life in black and white terms. For you maybe, its easy to just pack up and move on. Some of us have made committments to ministries and people. We've dedicated our lives to God and asked no questions but....where do you want me, Lord? We don't realize until we get out how much got in. It takes time to get it all out and get it replaced with truth. If only it were as easy as you say! God Bless you.

[Roberta (151.203.157.69)]

Boss

God has a plan for your friend. I can say this with great confidence, because He had a definite plan for me that brought me to this organization and led me out as well. You don't need the answer to "why". It will be revealed or not as God wills. If your heart is that your friend be out of GGWO, then pray...and BELIEVE as you pray that God will finish that work he has begun in you both, whatever the outcome.

Believing prayer breeds patience. Those of us who have been away from this organization have believed and prayed for years that one day the walls would tumble...so we walked round the walls, praying and believing...we still do. We believe we are praying God's will, and that he will answer and bring the critical momant when one man rises up and does the right thing, or when the canser within is removed by him...the time has come because we have prayed, believing.

Be relaxed and remember that God is in control of the path your friend walks, the events, the "crack in the wall". I know I have need of patience, for I have been given the promise that His will will be done...and now I must rely on my faith that he is able.

He knows the situation, and my prayer is that if, as I believe, men are needed to see it come to pass that they will have the actual courage to act. I have no great insight into His will, but I pray knowing that he already knows what it will take to accomplish his will. I hope that makes sense...

We can remain calm and know He is working His will in those we love. I too have people I care about that are still there, so I am praying too, Boss...I am praying too.

[Jessica Patton (66.30.49.45)]

Jack's post and this thread really gets this Factnet site back on track!

There are so many of us who have left GG/TBS this year, or who are considering it, who need to connect on this most relevant GG/TBS subject- "the exit".

Thanks for bringing it all back around to what I consider to be the main point of this forum- recognizing how our experience with the Lord has been deeply influenced by faulty "Stevensology" and how we can go on with God despite it.

Freedom.
It's a good thing.

[nonotone (24.211.177.206)]

Friends,

As many of you have already articulated, leaving GGWO "behind" is VERY tough. I've been "out" for just 14-15 weeks now. I don't live in Baltimore and there is not a GGWO affiliate church where I am. I was "in" just about as deep as you can get. My loyalty to Pastor Stevens and others in "the ministry" WAS unquestionable. By God's grace I was able (from 2002-present) to examine GGWO's (i.e. Carl Stevens') doctrines (before I learned anything about the DISGUSTING immorality and coverups, etc.) and come to a confident conclusion that the doctrines do not reflect the kind of scrutiny that historical Christianity has required of men who make the "claims to revelation" that Pastor Stevens has.

Now the "vision" that I thought I'd had for my life in "the ministry" is GONE. This is after almost a decade of unrelenting commitment, financial sacrifice, and often suppressing or denying my own dreams and gifts.

Because of this "radical change in vision" I vascilate between denial, anger, some mild depression, and yet MUCH HOPE (thank GOD). However, I am in a very solid conservative reformed church that honors me as a unique creation of GOD and does not try to mold me into a BEMA SEAT "asset" for Carl H. Stevens and GGWO.

I will say, however, that "though it all" (including nearly 10 years in GGWO) I've learned much about humility, the love of God, and honor for His Word!

Psalm 139 has become "my song in the night" because it underscores the unique and infinite worth that each one of us as in the eyes of Jesus Christ!

[Dave Drago (66.137.210.228)]

To All,
If anyone on this board needs to talk to someone about leaving or any other matter, feel free to contact me at 636-479-9961 (office). I will protect your identity. I am here to help. There is abundant life after GGWO, even if it does not appear that way now.
For Him,
Dave Drago

[Anonymous (68.33.132.7)]

The thread title is a little misleading. It should read "How to SURVIVE leaving GGWO", because there's no real strategy given here for anyone to leave. There's no advice on questions to ask (and I don't mean kidnapping and deprogramming), examples to provide (other than being a good Christian) or anything that might at least cause someone on the inside to take an honest look at the organization called GGWO. Basically, it just has to come to the individual. Although some have seen the light, I think that even if Carl Stevens was shooting heroin in front of the whole congregation and on the internet while wearing a Marilyn Manson t-shirt and preaching a sermon entitled "I Stole The Money", people would still say he's annointed.

Depressing.

Boss Martian

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

the strategy is...
1. you pack your stuff
2. you put it in your car
3.you get in your car
4. you drive away
5. you dont look back
6. you find a good therapistand pray alot

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

I suggest exit counseling from a qualified counselor, who is objective and trained to assist you. Scott and I spoke for a short time to an excellent exit counselor and found her an invaluable source to assist in the healing process. Spiritual healing isn't all there is to it, ladies and gentlemen. There's more, much more that needs to be worked through, and it is extremely helpful to speak to a professional who knows how to help you recover. I highly recommend even a small dose of professional help from a trained therapist who specializes in bible based cult exit counseling.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Good points, Boss.

[MuskyRose (205.188.117.20)]

Jack, Thank you for finally sharing part of your story with everyone. It will help many people reading Factnet who are thinking of leaving or who may have left and will be facing these situations.


I will add that it is important for people who leave to have some form of exit counseling. This doesn't mean hours and hours of therapy. By exit counseling I mean take some time to actually look at where/ what you have been in. See it for what it really is. If that means talking to a professional, then talk to a professional. It doesn't mean spending months in therapy, it may mean only a few sessions, just enough to get a handle on what really happened.

Do your own research. Read whatever you can about groups that do what ggwo has done. Get your cognative mind working again. Begin to think for yourself. Allow yourself the time you need to heal and don't be afraid to talk about your expereinces to anyone.

Plaid had a great suggestion when she said take advantage of student loan programs and go back to school. Reeducate yourself, by going back to school and getting or finishing that college degree.

Everyone's experiences at ggwo is different. Not everyone who leaves is/was a staff member. Those who leave who are valued members of Christs body suffer the same as those who were on staff. All leave wounded. It takes time for those wounds to heal. It takes more than just "giving it over to God" that is only part of the answer.

God is our healer yes, but He also wants us to do the work it takes to help ourselves to recover. He doesn't have a magic wand. The time for magical thinking is over it stopped when you left ggwo. The time to face reality is here.

There are many who can help. I'm a train professional counselor. I have degrees in psychology and am a MSW. I have also done exit counseling. If you have any questions please feel free to contact me. My e-mail is always included in my posts. Muskyrose@aol.com

>>>>>>>>>>>>>-----------Bonnie

[Nancy Curra (70.17.204.138)]

I know this isn't the thread for this but since most of my friends are here I am asking for prayer. I just got out of the nursing home after 11 months and to say the least being home is quite the challenge.

Nurses, doctors, aids, medicines, meals, etc. Making the adjustment and now I am completely paralyzed with pain most everywhere. I am quite peaceful and His joy fills me but I need practical prayer for safety etc.

Thanks all. Sorry I used this thread, just saw a few of you here that I know will pray.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

"God is our healer yes, but He also wants us to do the work it takes to help ourselves to recover. He doesn't have a magic wand. The time for magical thinking is over it stopped when you left ggwo. The time to face reality is here."

Thank you for posting this Bonnie.

The "Magic Wand God" is a serious problem and one that needs to be addressed by those who have left. He created us with an intellect as well as a spirit, and it is that critical thinking apparatus that has been subverted by this organization in such a way that we can feel guilty about using it once we leave. But use it we must.

Plaid's suggestion about education is excellent in that when we begin to leave the false doctrines behind, we need to exercise our minds as well as out hearts.

Well said, and thanks Plaid and Bonnie.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Common Issues After Leaving
http://s4.invisionfree.com/Discuss_GGWO/index.php?showtopic=82

20 Ways NOT to Get Sucked Back In
http://s4.invisionfree.com/Discuss_GGWO/index.php?showtopic=81

Dealing with Feelings, after you have left
http://s4.invisionfree.com/Discuss_GGWO/index.php?showtopic=73

But I Can't Have Been Mind Controlled, I made my own choices!
http://s4.invisionfree.com/Discuss_GGWO/index.php?showtopic=80

Articles authored by Bonnie B. MSW

[Glad Im OUT (152.163.101.13)]

I too can attest that getting outside counselling has worked and I have personally gotten help and have taken the advice of those posting on here, to which I extend great gratitude.

There is much warfare going on when you leave. You wrestle so much with guilt, anger, resentment, trust that was there is now smashed --both trust in God and people that were in leadership over you. You feel like you are abandoned too. Friends cut you off, other friends harass the hell out of you about why you are leaving, telling you that you are walking away from your "call" -- is it a call from God or the call to Pastor Stevens that they speak of??? Harassing emails. Harassing phone calls from body members telling you how "off" you are, and how "out of God's will" you are now. Whatever happened to people having their own believer priesthood and their right to hear from God!!!


And, then, the calls start getting fewer and less frequent and you wonder where you have been for the last 20 years, when you are suddenly cut off and marked, and talked about -- even to members of your own family by the leaders of the church. The sneakiest one???? Pastor Robinson. He lies, covers up for Pastor Stevens under the "doctrine" of privacy." But when he calls you on the phone or you meet him out for "coffee" when he's allowed out away from Pastor or his wife who runs his house, then the lies get even worse. After two meetings with him, you must bring a tape recorder and record the conversation without him ever knowing you did it, because the next person you meet to talk to tells you an entirely different story, and then, you are left wondering who to believe. Its the greatest deception and we all know who the mastermind of that one is from!!

Once in awhile you get an even more interesting phone call. Its from someone in the body that in all the years you've been there, they haven't EVER called you!! All of a sudden have a very personal interest in you. Duh. Why????????
Its not like they gave a **** about you when you were sitting 10 rows behind them for 20 years or shared a table with them now and again at Fellowship Hall. Give me a break!!

Leaving isn't easy when GGWO is all you have known for decades. What Jack Leonard wrote was true.

Whether the current elders reading here or not believe it. Some of you are going to experience the same thing yourselves. Wait till God leads you out. How you can stay there with all the stuff you have seen over the years and cover it up or cover up for the man who has brought ALL this grief to a head over all these years beats me. Time will tell, you yourself will be posting here anon on factnet asking for the same help we have been asking for, because one day you will get that revelation that you can't stand before the Lord and cover up this bull**** of church politics you've covered up for years. Standing face to face right now before the Lord can you honestly say the senile messages you are hearing from the pulpit make sense or are annointed?????
Do you elders even know the annointing of God???
You will leave there beat up even more badly than the rest of us.

It takes years to get over it and move on with your walk with the Lord.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

Dear Glad I'm out, I am glad you are out too! Thank you for your post. Reading it was like peering into an open wound, your pain is powerful and clear and rings so true!

This is a great thread started by Jack Leonard. There is such personal honesty of the experience of leaving, from the individual perspective. "Glad" your words are very profound and will help others. Thank you.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

"It takes years to get over it and move on with your walk with the Lord."

Yes it does.

I so totally understood what you said in your post. When Scott and I left it was here in Lenox after the big Baltimore Exodus. We were in the little band of believers who stayed in the Berkshires. We also got intimidating phone calls and hate mail after leaving, from here in the Berkshires AND from Baltimore. It was appaling and more than a little frightening. I still thank God that Chet Farmer was my friend and suggested counseling. How I miss him.

The other part of the trust issue for me was how could I ever trust myself again? I mean, I was and am a reasonably intelligent woman and I was so blown away when I finally realized that I had been an enthusiastic member of TBS/GGWO. I had left all family and friends behind, destroyed prized possessions because the ministry said they were evil, and had become someone I hardly knew anymore. I had been an independent, strong person who had traveled and lived in the world on my own,no silly teenager...what had happened to me? I was ill (a chronic condition from childhood) when I joined the ministry and over the years I stayed, my health deteriorated to such a dangerous level that I coulds no longer work at the branch ministry here...and they told me my sickness was of satan and that I was giving in to th devil...I couldn't even walk by then. The doctors today say my condition became so deteriorated by my years on campus that I'll never be well again. I can't prove it with medical testing as there is no quantifying measure available...but that is what they tell me. It was difficult not to resent them and myself for the years of physical exhaustion exspected as a student there. And they had no use for you if you were no use to them.

It was the hardest thing for me to understand...and then I didn't trust myself to make good decisions anymore. I still have that uncertainty now and then, still have a lack of self confidence to a degree I never had. My self esteem went into the toilet, my self worth meter was non existent...How I hated them for making me so full of doubt. It took me so many years to over come and forgivethem for my own sake that particular part of the break with TBS.

It felt like spiritual rape and it hurt to hear others blame me for being stupid for going there. I was harder on myself than anyone else. That's why the outside counseling was so helpful. They didn't give me platitudes that God would heal it all...how could God heal me when I wasn't even sure who He was anymore? I knew he loved me, but that was about it...and at times I wasn't so sure about even that.

It does take years...I am still in recovery I think, perhaps I always will be. That's not such a bad thing for now I know who God isn't and I know who I am. It's a start.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

Recovery takes time. There isn’t a magic wand, pill or solution. You can’t just “get over it”

Yes, you can take it to God and lay it at the cross. Yes, He will ease your burden, Yes, He is the balm of Gilead. But He also wants us to be responsible for our healing and to be proactive in it. God isn’t a magician. He doesn’t have a magic wand. The time for magical thinking is over and being realistic needs to begin. That is the beginning of healing. It doesn’t destroy faith it strengthens and enhances it.

This is from Bonnie's post on Invision. It bares repeating!

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

excellent thread!! Thank you to whoever created it

[Nancy Curra (70.17.193.102)]

Nonotone can you email me? thanks inmercyrejoice@hotmail.com

[Nancy C (70.17.193.102)]

Glad everything you wrote is true and has been my experience this last year. You realize you can count your friends on one hand and they are the ones that left. I have a dear friend who is a missionary in another country and I don't know how to tell her I am no longer attending GG. I am very involved as her secretary. Can someone help me? I don't want to hurt her, she knows something is different but has a pastor who is one with GG. Thank you.

[Anonymous (172.141.246.19)]

Could someone tell me how to get in touch with Bonnie and what church is she from? thank you

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Bonnie always includes her email address when she posts.

To email her, click on her name (MuskyRose) located to the left, just above her IP #.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Anon 172 her email is

Muskyrose@aol.com

[Anonymous (4.156.99.16)]

Thank you, Jack, for beginning this thread. It is very much needed and what FactNet was meant to be - a place of help, hope, and healing.

I am deeply moved by some of the things that I have read here. I have been out of the ministry for about 5 months now, and it is impossible to even try to explain what it has been like to leave my entire life behind. That is exactly what it is like when you leave GG. I was on staff and on campus 7 days a week, in the ministry for nearly 20 years, and every aspect of my life was intertwined with GG in some way. (where I lived, where I got my hair done, my car mechanic, everything!) All of my "friends" were in the ministry.

When things about GGWO started being revealed back in March and April, (or perhaps I should say when I finally decided to listen to what was being revealed) it was like learning that your spouse has deceived you throughout your entire marriage. You just keep finding out more and more about more and more lies. Finally you realize that the entire marriage was a sham and that the person you are married to is not the person you thought they were. That realization is so painful that you almost cannot bear it.

You begin to make preparations to leave the marriage. Most of your friends support your spouse so you are pretty much alone; however, you have a few family members who are there to encourage you to leave the marriage. Just come be with us, they tell you. We will love you and support you through this.

So you leave the marriage and the life you have known for nearly 20 years. You move to a new area and try to begin a new life. Somehow, you think that everything will be ok if you can just get away. At first the business of adjusting to a new area, finding a new job, and all the details of life occupy you and the pain and loneliness take a back seat. But then you are settled and the routine of life sets in and there you are.....no life, no friends, and a broken heart. It is months since you left the marriage and the family that was originally there for you is different now. You feel as though you are draining them with your pain. They feel as though you should be getting on with your life now, the crisis period is over, get over it and go forward.

You decide to try another relationship (a new church) and you discover you are so wounded that you cannot. You try, you think you should, you want to meet friends, and get on with life. But you discover the wounds go so deep that you are almost paralyzed. You are so insecure that you are nearly immobilized.

Every now and then you get a glimmer of hope (the precious Holy Spirit) but most days are filled with a sense of hopelessness, deep anger that often turns inward into depression, and the most intense sense of aloneness that wraps itself around you and just chokes the life out of you.

That is my exit experience so far. I know that it takes time, but I never, ever, ever expected it to be like this.

[John Krainis (207.5.226.251)]

4, our hearts go out to you. Please know that there are many who are pulling for you and praying for you.

Hang in there. Though it is bleak now, you made the right decision, the noble decision. And do contact some of the factnet folks if you haven't already.

[Dave Carson (207.156.7.90)]

4: You are not alone. Keep up the good fight.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Hang in there, 4. We are here.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Yeah, I'd like to say as well, there are many out here for you. Things can change, and they will change.

To those that stay in: someone a few posts back predicted that the same would happen to you someday.....that you would be treated like you have treated those that have left. That is probably true. I know you are doing as you have seen modelled before you and yes, you may end up leaving yourself someday. I want you to know this.....those of us who have left and experienced the harrassing phonecalls and letters....the name calling etc. know something about forgiveness. Please know that if you ever called us, we would receive you and speak to you with no hate whatsoever. We would receive you as one of the family. We know where you've been and why you have done and said things that hurt others. You can find healing with us, so don't hestitate to call.

There is much we could share with you that would ease your pain.

I know talk like this can be particularly raw for some of us.....we're certainly not used to being so transparent. I remember how hard it was to re-socialize! I spoke a different language! My vocabulary was different, my focus was different. I was afraid to be interested in things apart from the ministry. I felt so backward. I wondered if I'd chosen the evil place and would end up with evil consequences. Not so, all is well. God will speak to you, He will tell you things you need to know.
There will be a healthy life for you. You chose well, you got out, you can continue to choose well.

[John Krainis (207.5.226.251)]

Hebrews 12 gives a picture of a race. The runners are "surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses". These witnesses are not spectators, but are there to encourage and inspire the runners.

At its best, factnet has brought together many who can "surround" those in the thick of the contest with courage, support, community. We can "bear witness" to what we've experienced, such as:

The effort and loss are worth it.

There is a light at the end of the dark tunnel. There can be new friends, a new church family, a new outlook - even a new mechanic and hairdresser!

God is faithful. He won't ask us to bear more than we are able, and He won't leave, though at times it may feel like He has.

Jesus was a "Man of sorrows, familiar with suffering" (Isaiah 53:3), the "Friend of a wounded heart" (Wayne Watson). He is not interested in trouncing us when we're weak and vulnerable. He is the Good Shepherd who gave His life for the sheep.

[MuskyRose (141.154.188.40)]

"...It is months since you left the marriage and the family that was originally there for you is different now. You feel as though you are draining them with your pain. They feel as though you should be getting on with your life now, the crisis period is over, get over it and go forward.

You decide to try another relationship (a new church) and you discover you are so wounded that you cannot. You try, you think you should, you want to meet friends, and get on with life. But you discover the wounds go so deep that you are almost paralyzed. You are so insecure that you are nearly immobilized..."


Anon 4, Grief has no time limit, We all need to mourn in the case of those of us who have left ggwo it is particularly difficult because the loss is so great. We go from being totally surrounded by a "family" and having "friends", basically living in a "bubble" to having no one nothing. We are suddenly alone. stripped naked, exposed to all the unknown elements of a world we were taught was evil. It is hard to live in that world after being in ggwo's world. It is hard to live in true reality. To feel so rejected and abandoned. to feel so raped and abused.

We often fluctuate from asking ourselves the many why questions to the did I make the right decision questions. Our emotions are all topsy turvy and we find that trust is something that is very difficult to do. We trust no one, no even ourselves because of all of this. This is all a normal reaction for anyone who has left. Those feelings and thoughts are NORMAL. They are not wrong. You are not "off" with God. What you are is scared, hurt, and grieving over a loss of something that was very precious to you. God understands that. He doesn't expect more from you than you can give right now and neither should you.

Anon 4 you are not alone. There are others who understand what you are dealing with. Please allow yourself the time to grieve and to heal. God will understand that you need time. He understands how you feel deep inside and it is OK. His desire is for you to heal properly an in order for you to do that you need to be allowed to grieve in your own way.

Talking about your feelings is a start. Talking to anyone is a good thing. Sharing the good as well as the bad will do more for you in the long run than anything else. What others think is not the issue, this is your life and you now have control of it. You get to make the decisions and if you are not ready then you are not ready. Give yourself permission to grieve inspite of what others think, say or do. Allow God to heal you in HIS time frame not others.

>>>>>>>>>Bonnie

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Thank God for all those who have left!

You are all very brave for what you have done. I am not walking in your shoes, but I know you're going through a lot.

I pray your experience will help those to come.

Lots of love,

Boss Martian

[Nancy Curra (141.157.79.10)]

Please I really need help. I have a young friend coming to visit me Saturday. She knows something is strange but doesnt' understand. She emailed me that she was getting baptized and wanted to know what exactly is wrong with GG. She trusts me. Please how and what do I tell her? Can anyone help me? Thank you

[Anonymous (172.144.38.73)]

How do you get out? Run as fast as you can.

[Anonymous (4.156.99.84)]

Nancy,
Your friend knows something is strange and has asked you what is wrong with GG, so it is the perfect opportunity for you to tell her the truth. She wants to know! I am longing for my loved ones to ask me that same question, but unfortunately, they DON'T want to know (you know, cockatrice eggs and evil reports, etc.)

Just tell your friend the truth. Let the Holy Spirit lead you. He will.

[Jack Leonard (195.56.52.9)]

How do we know this is really Jack Leonard? you could be just some nobody!

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

Folks,
Let's not let silly posters like 7:14am's detract from this thread like they have so many of the other Factnet threads.

The "exit" is such an important subject to discuss!!!!

[Im Jack Leonard (195.56.52.9)]

You are not Jack Leonard! Liars go to hell!!!!!
I'm Jack Leonard!

[Dave Carson (207.156.7.90)]

Another part of leaving that is important is how it will affect your marriage. Many haven't survived the stresses of leaving GGWO. It's funny how many people I've spoken with mentioned that both partners knew they wanted to leave but waited for a long period before they told the other for fear of rejection and conflict. It might be worth while to have a talk with your mate about your feelings sooner rather than later.

[Anonymous (141.157.85.205)]

Go away troll (195)
The real Jack Leonard posts with class. Your's is obviously without it.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

So many marriages fail after the exit. I can think of far too many that ended in divorce.

Our marriage suffered the exit in the years that came after. We both, at different times went through the grieving process alright, but when the finally getting down to the anger issues happened it became extremely complex. Thankfully we both sought counseling. Initially it helped, but for Scott... he has decided never again to join or attend any kind of organized "religious" group. He has not come to this decision lightly by any means, but he is adamant. I can't blame him. The problems he personally had with the ministry covers a range of abuses many don't experience. Personally I am glad he didn't just jump off a bridge someplace. His relationship with God is strong, his heart is still God filled, but the damage is permenent.

It took us a long time to iron out the wrinkles, but in the end it made our friendship, which has always been strong, stronger, and our marriage based on truth and reality instead of the old TBS magical thinking.

[Anonymous (4.156.99.68)]

Let's bump this up to the top. It is too important to fall down where people won't see it.

[Nancy Curra (151.196.28.125)]

Jack thank you so much for your post. I have experienced everything you said in the last 2 years. But God is so faithful and He does give us space. God bless you and Lee. Please Lee keep in touch.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

,

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.87)]

We went through our strongest marital difficulty about 5-6 years before we got out. I caused it. I had the reaction to TBS/GGWO without leaving, and then it kind of sat. We got beyond my stupidity and anger and I didn't continue to express my disagreements over messages and such; but I had expressed a lot during about a nine month season; what some would call a midlife crisis. When we actually got out with the Herrings and others, I was able to open up and share the same things I'd found in the midst of my rebellion; and they were spiritually accurate. I had reached the point where I was not interested in all the masks and fake images of God, and the lies about what we should be as believers.

So, anyway, my marriage is still intact, thanks to Mary's persistence and patience and the prayers of Bob and LuAnn. I am a product of the love of others. I could just as easily have ended up in some gutter.

[Plaid (66.91.59.248)]

Though I was not married while in TBS (I left a few days after my high school graduation, the last one in Lenox, lots of my classmates were married soon after, my guess is "no touch love" had gotten too much to handle) the whole environment made handling close personal relationships very very difficult.

For years, even though I had left willingly, I felt that I was wrong for leaving, that I just wanted to live in sin. Yes, the sin of working two jobs, going to college, living in an unheated room in Pittsfield and eating Ramen noodles three meals a day - the joys of the high life ;-) Everytime I found friends, I was overcome with anxiety because of my sin of leaving would effect them too by being near me. Honestly, if I had had medical insurance at that time, I would have been committed to a psychiatric ward for the level of fear that I was living with. I had been feeling this so long I did not realize it was unnecessary and I could get better.
It took me a long time to finally accept an organized religion, and I think that many people here would even not agree that my choice is "right with God" or whatever the old tbs-speak was.

[Anonymous (67.242.153.94)]

If I wake up dead I'll wake up just like any other day,
And the photographs of God I bought have almost faded away..........

[Anonymous (209.6.151.215)]

.

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

Hey 67??
What does that mean???

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

This is still the most relevant thread on here!!
I hope people just finding the site will read this thread so.. to the top it goes!

[Jeannie (152.163.101.13)]

Dear Dave, You copied my post yesterday from this past April. I feel the need to clarify or update my feelings. Five months ago I had a sliver of hope for true repentance from the leadership of GG. I no longer have that hope. I no longer believe GG is simply an abusive church. The past five months have proven it to be a cult. There has been opportunity after opportunity for this leadership to repent. Instead they have proceeded to hurt innocent and godly people. Friends; good men and women like Ed and Kathy Lutz, DeDe Stoddard and many many more. They have slandered and attempted to destroy dear and godly folks. Even as hundreds of wonderful believers exit their doors, do they at least attempt to be reach out to these brothers and sisters? No! Not at all, they continue to slander and destroy, to hurt and divide families. They continue to point fingers and blame Paul or Ed Lutz with taking their flock away. But I know of hundreds of ex-GGer's attending several different churches. Many quietly leave to avoid the slander and the marking, afraid of loosing family members that remain. No, this is not just abuse it is cultic and shameful behavior and does not represent Christ at all.


Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 05:00 pm from (Jeannie Byrnes)

2. 4.155.. I also read everything written by Amy Carmichael. I taught my children the very illustration you posted here. I agree wholeheartedly that a believer should use those three sieves before word or action. Is it True? Is it Kind? Is it Necessary? I consciously applied those sieves before I took one step towards pressing for change in our church's government. What I have stated here is the truth, it is out of kindness for others that I risked everything to stand up for truth. Was it necessary? a resounding yes... If not one leader will "publicly" speak of the obvious dysfunctional abusive system at GG as they do in private then it is necessary for others to act on the behalf of the flock.

3. This is not an attack it is a loving call to repentance. Real friends confront sin with the hopes of restoration.
For Him,
Dave Drago

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

Exit Strategy 1) "pack your ****"
Exit Strategy 2) "Get the Hell out!"
Exit Strategy 3) "DON'T SHOW UP"
Exit Strategy 4) "Die!"

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

.

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

Greater Grace World Outreach Visitor Comments


"I was there from South. Berwick to Lenox, Massachusetts and reduced from a woman of faith to a subservient nonentity. Stevens replaced Jesus in a slow process with nonstop messages. His very presence once electrified me. He filled my mind as a deliverer, but also filled me with fear, which I now recognize as a warning. It was so awful that I cut the cord. But it has taken me many years to get over it."

"I was in GGWO in Chile South America. The evidence of the cult was undeniable. Everything revolved around Carl Stevens. And the only visit he did to the country I didn't see him once sharing with the people, the way you would expect a Pastor to do. On the contrary. He moved around the city as an unreachable, politician."

"I was in the cult, 'The Bible Speaks' with Dr.Carl Stevens, now called Greater Grace World Outreach. It is a cult to the 11th degree [sic]. I was in it for a year, when it had a branch in California."


Copyright © Rick Ross

[Anonymous (68.33.96.167)]

Where I found the above article:

http://www.rickross.com/groups/greatergrace.html

[Anonymous (207.156.7.90)]

From the above mentioned website:

Rick Ross
Rick Ross was born November of 1952 in Cleveland, Ohio. His family moved to Phoenix during 1956 and he grew up in Arizona.

Ross attended both elementary and high school in Arizona, except for a brief one-year stint at Camden Military Academy, a boarding school in South Carolina. He never attended college.

During his summers he often worked as a camp counselor and was an avid swimmer.

After graduating from Phoenix Union High School in 1971 Ross was first employed by a finance company and later a local bank. In 1975 he took a job with a cousin's auto salvage business. He became a company vice president and worked in that area until 1982. During this time his other interests were largely good cigars, art, jazz and classic cars.

But in 1982 a controversial religious group infiltrated the staff of a Jewish nursing home where Ross' grandmother was a resident. He brought this to the attention of the director and working with the organized Jewish community in Phoenix, ended the problem.

Ross' effort at the nursing home soon led to further work with the Jewish Federation of Greater Phoenix and the publication of a ground breaking brochure, which carried the ecumenical endorsements of most of Arizona's religious leaders. It was titled, What in God's Name is Going on in Arizona?

The brochure achieved wide recognition and Ross was soon appointed to a national committee focused upon the cult phenomenon, by the Union of American Hebrew Congregations (UAHC). The UAHC, commonly called the "Reform Movement" of Judaism, which is a large religious denomination.

Ross was later appointed to the UAHC Interreligious Affairs committee. And during the 80s he lectured and contributed to educational materials for the denomination.

In the early 80s Ross also became aware of serious problems regarding proselytizing within the prisons and jails of Arizona. He again brought this to the attention of the organized Jewish community.

Hate groups, harassed, threatened and frequently targeted Jewish inmates. Jews in prison also lacked any meaningful advocacy or consistent programs.

Ross founded the Jewish Prisoner Program of Arizona, which was soon absorbed by Jewish Family & Children's Service (JFCS) of Phoenix.

In 1983 Ross became a member of the JFCS professional staff. What was once volunteer work for the Jewish community, now became his full-time job.

Ross' work on behalf of Jewish prisoners culminated in his election as chairman, of both the Religious Advisory Committee to the Arizona Department of Corrections and the International Coalition of Jewish Prisoner Programs sponsored by B'nai B'rith in Washington D.C.

During his time at JFCS Ross continued his cult-related work, studies and research.

He also became an instructor for the Phoenix Bureau of Jewish Education and designed a course curriculum about destructive cults.

In 1986 Ross left the staff of JFCS to become a full-time private consultant, lecturer and cult intervention specialist.

He then began working privately with the victims of destructive groups and/or leaders.

His professional help is typically requested by parents, but often is sought by spouses and at times by the adult children of cult members. He has done hundreds of interventions.

Ross once cooperated with parents in involuntary "deprogramming" cases.

Such involuntary interventions were initiated by families and involved the restraint of a loved one. In this type of intervention the cult member was not free to leave and instead restrained under the supervision of their family. This restraint guaranteed an opportunity and adequate time to address family concerns.

However Ross, like other professionals working in this area, abandoned involuntary casework some years ago. He now restricts his intervention work exclusively to voluntary efforts, unless working with a minor child under the direct supervision of a custodial parent.

In voluntary interventions adult cult members are free to go at any time.

Cult members willingly agree to participate in Ross' current intervention work, despite the option to leave, usually because family members urge them to stay.

Ross states that amongst his current voluntary cases 75 percent not only decide to stay and discuss their family's concerns, but ultimately leave the group, which has drawn concern.

He has maintained this success rate consistently for some years. This is important, in a field where such definitive results are most often the bottom line.

Ross has worked throughout the United States and internationally.

He also continues to lecture and has been asked to speak at many universities and colleges. This has included such prestigious institutions as the University of Chicago, Dickinson College, Carnegie Mellon, Baylor, The University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, Duquesne, Knox College, Rutgers and the McCallie School.

Ross has been qualified, accepted and testified as an expert witness regarding destructive cults and controversial groups in eight states, typically concerning child custody and personal injury cases.

His work with law-enforcement has included consultation with local police departments across the United States, the Federal Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) and the FBI.

Families once retained Ross to do two interventions with Davidians and both ended successfully. His study of the once little known group led by David Koresh, began in 1988 as a direct result of repeated complaints.

Ross' work has been cited and/or his comments quoted in newspapers across the United States including the New York Times, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, USA Today, Dallas Daily News, Boston Herald, LA Times, Village Voice, Seattle Times, Phoenix Republic, Anchorage Daily News, Tampa Tribune, The Las Vegas Sun, Austin American Statesman, Richmond Times Dispatch and the Oregonian.

Ross has likewise been quoted within national magazines such as Newsweek, GQ, Details, Forbes, Cosmopolitan, Glamour, George and Slate.

Wire services such as Associated Press and Reuters have also carried his comments.

Time Magazine cited Ross as "a veteran cult watcher."

He has also been quoted within international publications including The London Times, The South China Post, Davar of Israel, Processo of Mexico, The Toronto Sun, Johannesburg Sunday Times and The Australian Courier.

Ross has appeared on more than 100 radio shows across the U.S. including National Public Radio, CBS and Pacifica and internationally on the BBC, RAI in Rome, CKO National Network of Canada and the Australian Broadcast Corporation.

He has appeared on American national network television on programs such as Nightline, Dateline, The Today Show, Good Morning America, Primetime, NBC Evening News, CNN, MSNBC, Oprah, 48 Hours and MTV News. Ross has appeared internationally on such television networks as NHK, Asahi and Nippon in Japan, CBC of Canada and TV 2 National News of Denmark.

He has also participated in documentaries for Post Newsweek, NHK and Court TV.

Ross has been retained as a paid professional consultant by CBS, CBC and Nippon television networks.

He also worked for Miramax/Disney as a technical advisor to the actor Harvey Keitel regarding his role in the Jane Campion film Holy Smoke.

Launched in 1995, his website, RickRoss.com, is now one of the largest and most comprehensive sites about controversial groups and leaders on the Internet. It contains thousands of articles and documents archived through hundreds of individual group and subject web pages.

Noted cult researchers and authors Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman call RickRoss.com, "The Mt. Everest of mind control Internet Resources."

Thousands of individuals visit this website every day.

Rick Ross personally handles hundreds of complaints and inquiries each month. This work has often led to breaking stories both about "cult" abuses and celebrity, political and business involvement with groups often called "cults."

After 2000 Ross launched two more related websites. CultEducation.com, which features educational materials about cults and CultNews.com for breaking stories.

In 2001 Ross moved from Arizona to New Jersey. He now lives in downtown Jersey City on the Hudson River, opposite Manhattan.

At the beginning of 2003 Ross launched the Rick A. Ross Institute Inc. (RRI). RRI is a New Jersey nonprofit corporation recognized as a tax-exempt educational charity by the US Internal Revenue Service. The mission of RRI is the study of destructive cults, controversial groups and movements. RRI maintains public archives made available through the Internet.

Other than his work, which requires frequent travel, Ross is a life-long art collector and still enjoys a good cigar while listening to some quiet jazz.

Ross is pictured on this page in front of an oil painting by noted artist Steven Yazzie titled, No Spring Chicken.

Britain's FHM Magazine named Rick Ross "America's number one cult buster."

[Anonymous (207.156.7.90)]

Bigotry lurks in born-again Christian doctrine
The Arizona Republic/November 6, 1982
By Rick Alan Ross (Special for the Arizona Republic)
We have been witnessing an increase in the visibility of the so-called "born-again" movement.

Though their numbers have not grown dramatically, the shrillness of their rhetoric has. Their doctrine teaches the threat of eternal damnation in hell to all those who don't believe as they do.

American Jews are especially aware of any threat to religious liberty. Historically, Jews -the victims of ancient and modern holocausts- are always one of the first targets of religious intolerance. In this way, the Jewish community has often served as an early warning of the encroachment of bigotry into society at large.

Through their repeatedly expressed intention to "Christianize America," fundamentalists have disturbed many Jews. Though some Jews cling to fundamentalist support of Israel as reassurance, most Jews are not deceived. Instead, we pay close attention to remarks made by the leadership of the born-again movement.

In 1980, the Rev. Bailey Smith, president of the Southern Baptist Convention, said at the Religious Roundtable national affairs briefing in Dallas that "God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew."

Smith only partially retracted his remark. After an interfaith mission to Israel, he later said, "I am pro-Jew…I believe they are God's special people, but without Jesus Christ, they are lost."

The constant energy of many born-again fundamentalists to support fraudulent proselytizing groups such as San Francisco's Jews for Jesus, led by an ordained Baptist minister, and, locally, the Jewish Voice, led by an ordained Pentecostal Assembly of God minister, has provided ample evidence of their desire to convert Jews, not accept them.

There are many Christians in America who appreciate Judaism, who seek no converts from among Jews. Their only desire is to live together with their Jewish friends in mutual respect.

The division between these Christians and the born-again movement is obvious. There seem to be many opposing doctrinal positions between fundamentalists and other Christians. Fundamentalists often proclaim that they are the only "true Christians," denouncing more than 80 million American Christians as "unsaved." They also have labeled more than 90 million Americans who are not religiously affiliated as "secular humanists" and condemn them to hell.

The question is this: If a person believes that without accepting his religious doctrine you will be damned to hell, does this lead him to like and accept you? Or does this attitude create in him a feeling of dislike toward you as a non-believer?

Thomas Paine an avowed [Deist]. More than 175 million Americans are not "born-again." And many of the founding fathers of America were not "born-again." Thomas Jefferson, a Unitarian, was inspired by the writing of Thomas Paine, an avowed atheist. In the words of George Washington, "The United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion." Instead, our founding fathers established a nation on the principles of religious freedom.

Americans must confront the issue of religious bigotry. Inflammatory rhetoric and fraudulent proselytizers do not promote love and understanding.

The very concept of exclusive salvation, or a segregated neighborhood in the hereafter, should be purged from many religious doctrines. Only then can we break down barriers of intolerance and eliminate the breeding grounds of bigotry.

Americans must put aside discriminatory dogma and reach out to each other in true acceptance. Not to convert each other, but to regard each fellow American's faith as valid and equal.

Only then can our country really fulfill the hope of the founding fathers. Not by one religion dominating America, but instead by all faiths coexisting together. That is the precept on which America was founded.

[Anonymous (207.156.7.90)]

Grain of salt, anyone?

[Dave Drago (65.65.195.65)]

Hey kids:
Have you ever wondered is Rick Ross credible? I say no!!! He hates the church and the message of salvation and will attack anyone who shares their faith. But, don’t trust me. Unlike others on this site, I will cite my sources. Here is a report from the Cult Awareness Network. You decide. Don’t let anyone rob you of your critical thinking skills or trust their judgements. Fair and balanced.

“Rick Ross has his own website where he calls himself a cult expert. He doesn’t have any degrees as a cult expert, he never went to any school to become one, no one but himself has ever labeled him that (and tabloid TV shows he has appeared on.)
Rick has led a life of petty crime, was a kidnapper and for one case in which he was caught was fined $2,500,000 by a jury in Seattle, Washington (in 1995) for his part in holding an adult male for five days in a remote location to change the man’s interpretation of the Bible.
Rick has called Christians .Bible thumpers. Has had extensive psychiatric history. He does not talk about this on his website and does not give refunds for the families who he has left in tatters after his violations of human rights (people have the right to believe as they wish in America . maybe Rick thinks he lives in Nazi Germany?) He is the last person anyone who is concerned about a family member or loved one’s choices should turn to for advice or .help..
Yes, Rick appeared on TV and media in the 1970/80.s. But this office has called media and told them about Rick’s criminal past and the tabloid media have directly told us (this was 20/20 TV show) .Criminal history is not something that would stop us from putting someone on our show..) Good information for any of you who think tabloid journalism has any sense of ethics.
The point is, do you want to make things better or worse? Do you want to actually make sure the person you are concerned on is on a life path that will satisfy them and be healthy?
If so, Rick Ross is not your man for consultation. He knows and repeats the bad, the outrageous. Imagine him describing a professional football game to someone who has never seen one. Men smash and hit each other, they bleed, and they have to wear protective clothing to prevent permanent injury. It is barbaric. It is outrageous. It is an athletic cult and I will get your son out of it. He’s been brainwashed..
There is much public information about Rick’s arrogance, his refusal to correct lies, and his false assertions that vicious things he has said to people are copyrighted.We are posting those here and will continue to do so.
Do not pay Rick Ross any money. Call our 800-556-3055 hotline. We.ll get you real help from a professor or a pastor who will charge you NOTHING. Let.s force Rick to go out and get a real job. Like dog catching.
Listed below are articles about Rick Ross
Rick Ross Sued For $10 Million
A letter from a woman who recently dealt with Rick Ross
About his lies about Jesus People USA
A site exposing the truth:
Jesse Walker makes a statement about Rick Ross.s .expert. status
Even A Stopped Clock Is Right Twice A Day

reference: Cult Awareness Network.org go to their site check them out see what they have to say about GGWO.
For Him,
Dave

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

Good Lord, Jim Faucett is going to have an stroke! Let the guy have a peaceful weekend.

Boss Martian
It ain't easy being green.

[Dave Drago (65.65.195.65)]

Hey Kids:
Is this a cult or an abusive church? It is research time!!! Oh boy, I feel like I am in school again!
This is from Apologetics A-Z www.apologeticsindex.org on Greater Grace World Outreach (GGWO)
Note: some info. Is outdated but Hassan calls it a “church” that practices “shepherding and adoring (not worshipping) Carl Stevens. Again, don’t take my word, read the expert. Go to his web page. You decide. Fair and balanced. Don’t let anyone rob you of your critical thinking skills.
Formerly known as "The Bible Speaks," this church has been in the news when courts "required church to return funds to millionaire contributor for unethical and illegal actions." [Watchman Fellowship ]
Allegedly practices shepherding
George Robertson, the Vice President and Chairman of GGWO's Maryland Bible College, is a cult apologist.
From its earliest days the group attracted controversy due to its member's adoring emphasis on Stevens and his claim of a unique relationship with Christ. Many stories abound of members rejecting family and loved ones to join the sect.
In 1983 Christian Research Journal published a report on the sect which stated that the group's doctrine of pastoral authority was authoritarian, unbiblical, and abusive.
Christian Research Journal, Summer 1987
Other Protestant ministers (...) have described Grace Gospel's doctrine as one predicated on fear of hell and damnation, and out of step with mainstream Protestant groups.
New jail ministry has controversial ties, The Standard-Times, Sep. 2, 1999
- Articles -
"Greater Grace" Influence in Nashville? Article by Watchman Fellowship. Documents concerns regarding GGWO teachings and practice.
Scientology's Revenge Sep. 9, 1999, New Times LA feature article on Scientology's take-over of the Cult Awareness Network Includes information on Greater Grace controversies.
- News Database - » About this News Archive
(Sep 2, 1999) New jail ministry has controversial ties

Note: Most mainline churches no longer preach the whole counsel of God. Did you know that Jesus the only way to heaven spoke about hell more than heaven? Don’t believe me, read His Words!!! Don’t let anyone rob you of your critical thinking skills.
For Him,
Dave

[Anon Brief (205.188.117.20)]

Dave, the Cult Awareness Network is currently run by Scientology. They are a dangerous organization. No one with questions regarding cults should contact CAN.

[Dave Drago (65.65.195.65)]

Anon I found this on the home page.
"WHO WE ARE

The New Cult Awareness Network began operating in October 1996, after the former Cult Awareness Network declared bankruptcy and sold their assets when they couldn.t pay the $1,000,000 fine they had been ordered to pay for their part in the abduction of a man named Jason Scott in a failed attempt to change his religious beliefs (please see documents on the Scott Case separately on this site under .Legal.).

In February 1997 the Foundation for Religious Freedom was incorporated in Los Angeles.

The owner of the name Cult Awareness Network, Steven Hayes, an attorney, licensed the Foundation for Religious Freedom to use the name Cult Awareness Network.

The Foundation filed the DBA (Doing Business As) of Cult Awareness Network and is the only organization which can legally use that name.

We are also legally the Foundation for Religious Freedom, International since late 2001"

[Dave Drago (65.65.195.65)]

This is from Apologetics A-Z Introduction

Buyer-beware: The real CAN, a secular anticult organization, has been taken over by a Scientologist, and must be considered under the influence of the Church of Scientology [Documentation]. While claiming to promote tolerance, the new CAN has shown itself to be a hate group.

It is now operated by the Foundation for Religious Freedom (FRF), a California corporation doing business as Cult Awareness. The agreement between the Church of Scientology and the IRS, reveals that FRF is a "Scientology-related" entity (VIII 4c).

Billing itself as an interfaith organization, FRF is headed by Dr. George Robertson, who also founded "Friends of Freedom," an organization funded by the Church of Scientology [Documentation]

Robertson is a baptist minister. He is vice president and chairman of Maryland Bible College & Seminary, which is operated by Greater Grace World Outreach, a church that has been in the news in the past for unethical practices. Another person associated with GGWO, Louis DeMeo, is a vocal opponent of France's anticult- and countercult movements.

Scientology minister Nancy O'Meara, administrator for FRF, bills herself as a CAN-volunteer.

Whereas the real CAN was an organization that warned people about dangerous cults, the Scientology-backed CAN relies primarily on information provided by cult apologists. It's use of the name "Cult Awareness Network" is, therefore, seen as a farce.

Incidentally, the term "interfaith" strictly speaking stands for "involving person of different religious faith." The idea is that while these people may differ in their theological convictions, they nevertheless tolerate and respect each other. Currently, though, some (including many cult apologists) are trying to redefine the term to mean that one must accept religious pluralism - the theory that there are more than one or more than two kinds of ultimate reality and/or truth - and that therefore more than one religion can be said to have the truth (way to God, salvation, etcetera). In this view, questioning or critiquing the beliefs and/or practices of a religious movement is considered akin to "intolerance," "persecution," and "hatred." For obvious reasons, this appears to be the approach favored by the new CAN.

Friends and parents of people involved in cults should be aware of these views and take them into account when deciding where to obtain accurate information about cults and alternative religious movements.

Web Site

Long relatively dormant, the web site of the Scientology-back "Cult Awareness Network" in 1999 underwent a facelift of sorts - a proccess apparently still not finalized. New webmaster David Hinkley also is the webmaster for FRF. He claims to be a Christian, but many Christians would consider his involvement in a cult apologist organization like CAN to be ill-advised at best. Indeed, such involvement shows a marked inability to discern orthodoxy from heresy. His support for a variety of cults and abusive movements, and his ad-hominem attacks on cult experts, speak for themselves.

Considering the Church of Scientology's pre-occupation with issues of copyright, it is also interesting to note that the CAN site includes plagiarizes material, including items taken from the Apologetics Index web site. (Documentation available to qualified parties).

Hinkley also volunteers his services to www.worship.nu, which, operated by a non-profit organization, provides "free hosting and design services for Christian churches and religious organizations." The site is prominently linked-to on the FRF web site. While www.worship.nu appears to be an indepent organization, it will be interesting to learn whether churches using its services are approached by FRF or CAN (if so, contact the publisher of Apologetics Index).

My point is that even when we research "the experts" there is the confusion.
For Him,
Dave

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

..

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Bumping this up

[anova (anova)]

How to leave?

Make plans to leave. Don't tell a single soul in the ministry you are leaving. Go on a "vacation." Have family and friends move out your belongings. Don't ever come back.

Do NOT do a slow, long pulling out. It is excruciating.

Anovus

[sam_i_am (sam_i_am)]

This is Ch. X from Gene Edwards'A Tale of Three Kings:

How does a man know when it is finally time to leave the Lord's anointed -especially the Lord's anointed after the order of King Saul?

David never made that decision. The Lord's anointed made it for him. The king's own decree settled the matter! "Hunt him down like a dog." Only then did David leave. No, he fled.Even then, he never spoke a word or lifted a hand against Saul. Please also note this: David did not split the kingdom when he made his departure. He did not take part of the population with him. He left alone.

Alone. All alone. KIng Saul II never does that. He always takes those who "insist on coming along."

Yes, men do insist on going with you, don't they? They are willing to help you found the new kingdom of King Saul II.

Such men never dare leave alone.

But David left alone. You see, the Lord's anointed can leave alone.

there's only one way to leave a kingdom: alone.
All alone.

My note: Edwards' premise is that we need King Sauls to make Davids - men after God's own heart. Brokenness produces humilty and true character and spirituality. If we do not get broken, we become King Saul II.

[aurora (aurora)]

I hated that book. It is so Steveneque in its assumption that men can be annointed by God.

The Bible is annointed. Jesus is annointed.

I understand that annointing was in some of the Old Testament stories. So were pillars of fire and the parting of the Red Sea.

Call me a spiritual simpleton, but I'm DONE sitting under a man ready to recieve drips of oil flowing from the beard! Really, now, what man can walk around being "an annoited one" and not be contorted by PRIDE?! Ridiculous!

[lee (lee)]

You wouldn't know a King Saul type if he were writing you emails or posting on FN or making silly jokes or was a woman or a bunch of women or a small child or an ass.
The man you think is a King Saul type will never tell you to go because he has no remorse whatsoever when it comes to making you and seeing you as a blockheaded guy whose hero complex has gotten way out of control.
You'll not get it till you stop being the shapeshifter you have become. Repentance will do more for providing the humility necessary than following this mother of all crazymakers.
These may be harsh words to some, maybe even evil to many, but to see someone for years and years make the same stupid decison over and over again is just so painful, that I'm willing to stick my neck out and say it. I'll await God's judgement on my words and take the consequences.

[toolmahass (toolmahass)]

There is a step by step on how to leave, it's about 12 posts down, called "Getting the F' outta Dodge"

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/