South Berwick TBS

[Jan (66.30.49.45)]

What's happening in the South Berwick ever-faithful-to-Stevens branch??

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Jacqi Gough and Dennis are banging each other again!!

[Anonymous (63.27.12.71)]

Good for them! It's nice that her husband stood by her during her time of "deception" after he left GGWO before her!

[Anonymous (141.157.118.119)]

205 that is just rude. But I do thank God for Dennis, he stood by Jacqi and she by him and I hope God blesses them beyond all they hope for.

[Jan (66.30.49.45)]

Back to the subject here- Really, how are the folks in South berwick doing with the mess at "homebase"? Are they sending people to MBCS? The last I heard the church in South Berwick was dwindling in numbers.
Does anyone in factnetland know anything about TBS S.B.??

[HerkyBird (209.103.235.184)]

I actually stopped by there, maybe out of morbid curiosity, on a Thursday night in mid-September. First time I'd been in New England in 18 years, and it wasn't too far out of the way. I was very careful to park off the grounds and took a casual walk around the boundary. The front building which I lived in as a child has been redivided into about half a dozen apartments for the pastor's family and a few others - - I think it was living quarters close to 2 dozen families in the late '70s. I noticed a window air conditioner sticking out of what used to be my shared bedroom (which we certainly never had), but the building looked small and dingy, like it hadn't been painted since I left. The "Bible Speaks" sign is gone from in front, but the posts which held it are still there.

It was aparently service night and quite a few cars were gathering in the lot in back. On a whim I walked up to someone who was just getting out and said I'd lived in the building as a child. Would they mind if I walked through the public areas? They took me into the service area (the old gym) and passed me over to someone I apparently knew many years ago, and who was the designated tour guide. I was told that they regularly have people stop by with a request like mine, especially those from the catholic school days. So, I got the short tour of the lounge, first floor of the back building, and chapel/cafeteria.

Impressions: The landscaping seems to be a lot better than it used to. The gazebo has been walled in and is now a bookstore. I think David Bennet's workshop is gone, and the doghouse definitely is. The cafeteria looks exactly the same, down to the red/grey box linoleum pattern. The main hallway in the back building, where the office and Southern Maine Christian Schools classrooms once were, is starting to smell like my grandmother's house did. The big murals in the lounge have been covered, and there are photos of Pastors Brown and Stevens et their respective uxs proudly displayed. The library above the lounge, with Pastor's old office and the door that lead through the single women's dorm, is now classrooms. The old gym, now worship hall, is set up differently with a big stage and fewer chairs arranged with more room, facing away from the door. There were maybe 60 people gathered, but services weren't supposed to start for another 20 minutes or so.

In increasingly surreal manner, I was reintroduced to June West and Charlene Brown, two of my elementary school teachers. Yup, they're still there. I showed them some snapshots of my kids and tried not to choke when Mrs. West talked about how wonderfully God had worked in my life. And then I quite firmly got the hell out of there when they started to walk me into church.

The funny thing is, when I walked back to my car behind the police station, a woman pulled up looking stressed. She asked me if I knew where The Bible Speaks was (or maybe it was "Southern School of the Bible"), and I pointed across the grass in front of me. She wanted to know where to park, so I let her follow me to the official parking lot next to/behind the old gazebo. She called out that I was "an angel" and headed into church. I've wondered several times since then if I should have found a way to wave her off instead.

[Anonymous (4.156.99.222)]

Many people have left the S. Berwick church, some because of something that occurred there that had nothing to do with Baltimore, and others since the mess in Baltimore has come out.

Some are just totally blind to anything wrong. Pastor's picture still sells like hotcakes in the bookstore.

Bruce Brown, although troubled about all of this, will not let go of his loyalty to Stevens. They are, however, trying to beef up their Bible college so as not to send their people to Baltimore. I know of a couple of kids who were planning to come but didn't, and one who was there who left.

It would be the biggest miracle in the world to see Brown disaffiliate with Baltimore, right up there with the parting of the Red Sea and Lazarus being raised from the dead. But the congregation has dwindled and many have left, some who were there 20 years or more.

[Arguendo (64.12.112.171)]

Embezzlement should not be "covered."

[Anonymous (63.27.4.171)]

Herky Bird are you Melody Stevens?

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

Melody Stevens? Are you crazy?

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

ROTFLMAO

[Anonymous (67.243.241.54)]

Melody is still Daddys girl as long as she is in his will, and I'm talking about a Last will and Testament of Carl H. Stevens.
She knows how not to **** Carl off.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

I'd like to hear her husband's views on all of this.....

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

Back to the topic please!..South Berwick TBS.

There are MANY folks in SB who have been there since Wiscasset, etc. How could they ever face the idea that they spent 30 years of the prime of their lives following a thing that was weird and a guy that had a lot more going on than the Gospel. Carl Stevens has to remain a prophet to them. They all gave their lives to his teachings and the religious structure he set up those many years ago!

Also, if indeed homebase fractures and the world-wide mission thing is no more that WHAT WOULD THESE MEN EVER DO FOR WORK????

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

Hey Arguendo-

What do you know about a SB embezzlement??
Does the congregation know??
(I'm going to guess no)

[Anonymous (4.156.99.10)]

Many in the congregation knew and that is why they left.

Michael Marr got inolved and gave the typical GG counsel - don't prosecute, cover the person, make him disappear. Poof! He disappeared! And so did many who were members there for years.

The TBS apple doesn't fall from the GGWO tree, does it?

[HerkyBird (209.103.235.184)]

Melody? No . . . but that's pretty funny.

-- RJ, wassamatta? I don't fit the part? ;) --

I knew her once, but haven't laid eyes on her in about 25 years. Melody lived with Pasta's family in the big house up the hill, not in those tiny family dorm rooms. And even then we didn't travel in the same circles.

And yes, the weirdest part of the whole experience was seeing those who stayed. I passed Marlene Hanson in the hall, although I understand she is divorced now. I wonder whatever happened to her kids?

I think the term is "cognitive dissonance." If they admitted to themselves how badly they'd screwed up, they'd have to accept something about their life and beliefs that might tear them apart. So they simply do not admit to them selves what is going on, and has gone on. (There you have it, folks. That may be the sum total of what I retained from my psychology minor.)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I think Herkybird is a Huisjen.

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

..

[Anonymous (69.143.68.103)]

I think you're on to something with the "cognitive dissonance", Herky. I think it applies to many, if not most who continue to warm the pews at GGWO. I think that also has a lot to do with the resistance in calling the place a cult. The only people who see it for what it really is have either left or have some sort of stake in maintaining the status quo.

About those Carl photos. Are they on sale at the bookstore in Baltimore? As I said in a post long ago, it reminds me of all the portraits that were on the walls of Iraqi citizens of Saddam. It also makes me think of Big Brother from Orwell's 1984. I imagine a huge painting of Carl on the wall at homebase with the caption "I'm watching."

I want one of the official photos of Carl. After all, it's Halloween.

Boss Martian

[Anonymous (205.188.116.211)]

Watchman Fellowship, Inc.

Spiritual Abuse Weekly E-Letter #12


Hi Friends,



How do people get snared in high control groups? How are personalities dramatically changed for the worse? There must be a process, a method, behind such a dramatic and destructive personality change.



There is a psychological term for the gradual acceptance of something that would not otherwise be believed. It is cognitive dissonance theory. Leon Festinger described it in his book When Prophecy Fails. Festinger described three elements of social psychology, and behavior modification techniques, at work in group dynamics, and in the case described in his book, a cult milieu. Those three elements are Behavior, Thought, and Emotions. Steven Hassan, ex-Moonie, and author of Combating Cult Mind Control, added Information to the list and called it the BITE method.



Festinger said that if you can control behavior, emotions, and thought, you can get a group of people to do very bizarre and wrong things. Festinger said that if one of the three elements is changed the other two will be powerfully influenced to come into agreement with it. People don’t like being hypocritical, after all.



When someone is recruited into a mind-controlling cult their behavior and personality begin to change dramatically. Someone who has known this person for years will be struck with the significance of the change and comment that “they are just not the person I used to know. What happened?”



New recruits to totalistic groups experience “thought reform” as the starting point in behavior modification. It begins with acceptance of a totally new premise underlying the cult worldview. This premise could be Hassan’s fourth criteria, Information. The premise could be that all of current Christianity is apostate necessitating a restoration. Or, it could be that God only speaks to and through a particular chosen leader and you must listen to him to hear God. Or, it could the “special” or “spiritual elite” status of the group. This premise then is the foundation that must be laid for the acceptance of the teachings and practices espoused by the group. If you have accepted the premise then follow-through on the secondary teachings and life style practices must follow or the recruit will be in a continual state of cognitive dissonance, or hypocrisy, in layman’s terms. He will neither be “in” nor “out” of the group but in a limbo condition that the group will frown on leaving the person to feel he is spiritually weak, or second-class. This causes pressure to resolve their problems and become one of the “in” people.



The antidote to this process is truth, unimpeachably presented. When a cultist sees the truth as truth then the same process by which he was recruited begins to set him free. He doesn’t want to by a hypocrite after all.



You may call our Spiritual Abuse Hotline 24/7. This week’s Hotline message is about Unspoken Rules. The Hotline is a pre-recorded message of about 3 minutes duration describing the methods and characteristics of abusive groups. Callers can receive further information by leaving their name and address at the end of the message. All contacts are strictly confidential. The number is 706-221-2166.



I am happy to receive phone calls at 706-576-4321 from anyone who wishes to talk privately with me. You can call anytime from 7 AM till 11 PM (EDT) any day of the week.



In Christ,

David Henke

Founder, Watchman Fellowship, Inc.

P.O. Box 7681

Columbus, GA 31908

706-576-4321

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

I like that.......unimpeachable truth. There came the day when I finally had enough of the truth in me to surrender to it and do the right thing. I went through many contortions trying to believe our pastor was right, that the ones that left were wrong and evil. Thank God truth wins out in the end. The end of my time at TBS was a sweet moment.

God is also faithful to keep trying to reach us. He nevers gives up!

[Anonymous (205.188.116.73)]

I know Lee, that struck me also, very powerful to consider:

"The antidote to this process is truth, unimpeachably presented. When a cultist sees the truth as truth then the same process by which he was recruited begins to set him free. He doesn’t want to by a hypocrite after all."

I can't get this thought out of my mind and how it relates to FACTNet. I am not sure the newer participants realize how many of the orginal defenders of GG have now left GG. It is because of this very principle in David Henke's newsletter. The process of getting out from under GG is similiar to getting in. It took TBS/GGWO's version of the truth, which was: "Carl has a special anointing from God, TBS/GGWO is an elite Word of God ministry" to set the stage for us to envelop the whole package. Once in, it was "T H E TRUTH" and since we all desired to serve God with all our hearts, we never wavered from "T H E TRUTH." With earnest hearts and without hypocrisy, we served. But with a small sliver of light, a small dose of truth, we could not turn back. It is impossible for us to live the life of a hypocrite when our earnest desire is to serve Him. It is appalling to realize some in leadership play the hypocrite so well. It is appalling to realize we thought they were like us, earnestly serve God. It is earth-shattering, an epiphany and then we are set free. What a journey this has been!

[Anonymous (4.156.99.77)]

Sorry, Boss, I have never seen the pictures of Carl for sale in the Baltimore bookstore. I am sure you could get one by calling the S. Berwick bookstore. LOL

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

Hey South Berwick is putting on a play/musical over two weekends I hear. I wonder if it will help their situation.

Your thoughts...(as harry carey/ will farrell would say)

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

Bummer for them, though, that the world series with the Sox is happening during their performances.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.12)]

"What happened Carol??" (Harry Carey played by Will Farrell

[Anonymous (141.154.189.22)]

So that's what happened is So Berwick? Embezzlement? ok someone tell us all about it.. who what when ? dish it up. Who are they covering for this time?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.12)]

bump

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Please will someone reveal what happened at South Berwick re: embezzelment? There are people here who have family and friends there that are concerned.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.12)]

And there are others that are just dying to get their hands on any nasty piece of garbage they can feed on. It's ridiculous how this board supposedly started for helping and healing has turned into a forum for "getting the dirt" and spreading it around. That's not helpful or healing to anyone. GGWO may have wronged people but to turn around and spread gossip is just as wrong and two wrongs don't make a right.

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

And sometimes finding out the truth so you can tell your friends still entrapt in this cult can get to leave. Haven't you been paying attention?

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

And covering up is helpful how? Isn't that what tbs and ggwo always do cover up? so why protect them? Stop the cover ups! Air the dirty laundry, get it out in the open and clean up the land!
Geesh will you people ever learn?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.12)]

The Damage Control Trolls have given you your orders - knuckle under and shut up.

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

The info about the embezzlement has gotten out to several folks outside the inner circle in SB and has been part of the reason some have left that church. Only part, however, because there are plenty of other issues there that have never been dealt with except with the CHS-taught strategies of maintaining the status quo by placating people.

It was a lay person in leadership who took money meant for a building project. Evidently he had total and excusive charge over the fund and only paid out to contractors minimally. This went on they think for maybe as long as 2 years. He only was found out when a bill or something that was thought to be paid was discovered inadvertantly by someone. I know the ball park figure but have been told they have no way of knowing the exact amount- it could be even more. Suffice it to say it was BIG bucks!

The guy ran off with one of the pastor's daughters more than half his age. Terry Trimble suggested prosecution, Marr adamently recommended against it sighting that, among other things, the damage to the reputation to TBS in the community would be too great by having it all come out publicly. Brown suffered great heartache in all this but still only told the board and certain inner circle people.

The bad guy's family sort of dissappeared. My guess is that creep is doing it again to another congregation someplace else...

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

I would say his name ( there is NO need to "cover" him!) but I do feel very badly for his deserted wife and kids. The guy must have been 50 something and they must have been married 25 years or more. So sad!

[Arguendo (152.163.101.12)]

"The Damage Control Trolls have given you your orders - knuckle under and shut up."

Get a grip on reality. I, for one, believe in Pastor Brown's ability to eventually do the right thing. I think he is starting address the problems with CHS and GGWO, albeit slowly.

I'd much rather see people confront him personally. I don't think anything more has to be said than what was said above.

Except this, Marr gave some crappy advice. It put SB in a position to be extorted, it probably puts their tax exempt status in play, and it destroyed the good faith in Pastor Brown, which he earned and for the most part deserved.

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

What did, Arguendo?

Listen, I do think there are some spiritual principles that are being chronicly violated by, of course, CHS & GGWO, but ALSO these branch ministries that are running on the same philosophy of church government.

As kind and good as Brown is... he is, like any branch leader trained at SSB or MBCS, running his church like Stevens would (minus henchmen, coercion and intimidation, mind you!). The secrecy and cover-up may be SB TBS's downfall just as it is probably here in Baltimore.

God can't bless deception and cover-ups.
Truth would set them free but some would rather stay in the cage of allegience to that ole' heritage even if it means a church stays only 50 people when it was 200 such a short time ago (which is why they began that building project in the first place!)

[Arguendo (205.188.117.12)]

What's your point? I'm the one that brought up the embezzlement in the first place.

My point is that Pastor Brown is far more accessible to his congregation than CHS is accessible. Brown can easily be confronted by his congregation. FACTNet is necessary for GGWO proper because CHS stopped being accessible and accountable to his congregation. He made it necessary for people to "go public" with there questions and concerns. I am not convinced that this is the case with Pastor Brown.

I have very strong feelings about the way things have been handled by both GGWO and SB, but while the situations are related and in some ways are similar, they are factually different.

Also, I am not a subscriber to the theory that this situation is beyond God and nothing can be done remedy the problems of GGWO out side of destroying it. I also do not believe in issuing directives to God as to how the situation needs to be remedied. That is not to say that good people should do nothing, but I would not pursue resolution with too specific an agenda.

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

CHS was never accountable to his congregation and was only available to those with whom he saw it as advantageous to be so.
Pastor Brown, though he listens and "feels people's pain" absolutely does view questioning as dissent, etc. Marking has and does occur there and those who leave communicating all the way have not been heeded whatsoever. It's shrinking numbers and Prokop's and Kelly's inpute that is influencing Brown to implement a few possible changes- not fundamental breaks with the Stevens' heritage.

GG and SB TBS are built upon the exact same foundations, like it or not, Arguendo!!

[Anonymous (64.12.117.12)]

Sadly, the most telling indoctrination of the Browns is their treatment of Joel Freeman, Nancy's brother.

A most telling sign of moving away from these twisted doctrines is the reconciling of family members who were marked and avoided for leaving GG.

It would be wonderful news to hear the Browns have made steps to reconcile with Joel.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.12)]

I have to agree with you 64. If the Browns are not so indoctrinated with GGWO thinking then it would certainly show in their treatment of Nancys brother Joel.

Reconciliation of the Freeman family would certainly be a priority considering how close the brother and sister once were.

I pray daily for that to happen and I agree it would be wonderful news to hear that the Browns have finally made a step to reconcile with Joel.

[Anonymous (63.27.11.178)]

You know what I like about Prokop's church website? Not ONE WORD is mentioned about GGWO homebase and Stevens...just Jesus and the things the church is doing to share His love! AMEN

[Arguendo (205.188.117.12)]

"GG and SB TBS are built upon the exact same foundations, like it or not, Arguendo!! "

You assume too much.

[Arguendo (205.188.117.12)]

You know, I just don't get into family stuff. It's not my business. Siblings that don't speak to each other for years is a mystery that occurs outside of GGWO and TBS all of the time, even in Christian families.

[Arguendo (205.188.117.12)]

"It's shrinking numbers and Prokop's and Kelly's inpute that is influencing Brown to implement a few possible changes- not fundamental breaks with the Stevens' heritage."

And what will you allow God to do?

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

It's not up to me to allow or not allow when it comes to what God is doing!.. But I get your point and I guess it's true that I have no faith for the situation there except that I know God does have a provision for the folks remaining there- most likely in one of the growing and healthy churches right in their area- York, Wells, Rye, Dover etc.

[Arguendo (205.188.117.12)]

Well, before people go I'd like to see them explain why they are going to the Browns. I have faith that someday it may sink in.

Bruce Brown is far more humble man than CHS, although I do admit he'd have to let go of a lot of nonsense to change. At some point he would have to admit that he is not particularly important, except that he has a great capacity for love and humility, and those are the gifts that he has to offer in his calling. Any importance he has is in the lives of the people he cares for, and that is enough. He has taken on some of CHS personality flaws, but they are not inherent to his nature and I believe he can change.

(He has more security than the Secretary I work for) ; )

[Anonymous (24.25.176.37)]

Any suggestions on "healthy" churchs in York/Kittery, etc.

[Ellen Walters (24.25.176.37)]

Jan or anyone....who left SB? Can you say who's left recently? Not to just want to hear names, but I'd like to talk to others who've left. Thanks.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Anon 24...you might ask Jim Faucett here on FactNet. he has been helping a lot of people find healthy Christian churches all over.

[Arguendo (205.188.117.12)]

It's a small church, isn't it apparent to you who has left?

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

I'm telling you, Brown is not teachable unless it is through Prokop or Kelly or some other Stevens-trained leader!!!

Don't we realize the POWERFUL hold all the teaching Stevens did in the '70s & '80s has on the Browns and others all over the GG/TBS world?!
He amazingly laid all the foundation that was needed to keep people from ever succeeding in changing one of his branch churches. Remember all the YEARS of preaching about the different kinds of conspiracy, for example? I know for a fact Brown believes this is all just an attack of Satan. Golly, the ones who announce they are moving on, even after attending for 20 or 25 years, find no blessing or affectionate well-wishes as they depart. (He believes in the one pastor-teacher thing to the max.)

The strongholds of past indoctrinations- especially Stevens' stuff during the late '80s Dovedenas thing- cannot be overlooked when one is looking for even kind souls like Bruce Brown to change.

Besides, there are healthy churches right in close proximity for TBS attendees(who mostly live outside South Berwick anyway). The Chalmers found one in their town of Wells, for example. The McIntyres found one in Durham. Rye Bethany Church is a great place- many travel there from Kittery & York.

One has to keep in mind, however, that these are NOT like GG/TBS!! It takes time to get used to that, as we who have left GG found in Balt as we went to find healthy churches. But many of these places are implementing Pupose Driven Life-type of programs that can be in many ways more effective in meeting Christians' needs and Christ's mission of outreach.

[Arguendo (205.188.117.12)]

"I know for a fact Brown believes this is all just an attack of Satan."

Really. If this is so, then why has he stopped encouraging attendance at MBCS?

Are you sure SB is still tithing to Baltimore? I'm not.

[Anonymous (66.30.49.45)]

I don't have any idea about tithing to Balt but I do know he isn't encouraging kids to go to mbcs at this time like you said. However, there is at least one kid who is planning to attend next year. Brown suggested back in '86-'87 that people not attend ssb. He has a wait and see approach to Balt and meanwhile promotes their own bible school led by Wayne Goldworthy.

Even though Brown has distanced himself from the Marr/Schaller balt thing, he, like many others, believes Stevens is just old and demented now. He still "honors" and propigates the "amazing heritage" left by the man they have truely believed to be one of the greatest modern-day prophets.

No acknowledgement, of course, of the wake of wounded, etc.

[aurora (aurora)]

bump

[aurora (aurora)]

No, I know no one named Doris. Sorry.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

http://www.faithalone.org/

Click on Church Tracker. Click on "ME", "MD" and "DE"

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Good to see you back, A. You've been missed.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Hi arguendo,

FWIW: http://www.faithalone.org/ is the WEB site for the "Grace Evangelical Society" (GES). This outfit produces a "Theological Journal" dedicated to advancing the "Free Grace" position of salvation.

GES has been in the CENTER of the so called "Lordship Salvation" debate of the past 20 years or so. Dr. John MacArthur being their chief "opponent" in this debate.

For some gracious, excellent, and truly objective reading on this debate see "Christ the Lord: The Reformation and Lordship Salvation " from Dr. Michael Horton.

GES seems to be a farily "loose" conferation of Churches and Bible Institutes dedicated to the "Clasical Dispensationalism" of Lewis Sperry Chafer / Scofield, etc. Sans, the Carl H. Stevens influence, this pretty much describes SBTBS.

I don't see GGWO in Baltimore or DE on their "Church Tracker" list. Were they removed recently or is it your point that they have never been there in the first place?

Peace,


Nonotone

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Hurtone, You don't have to talk about it right now. Just know there are fellow believers out there that understand, have experienced the same hurt and care. You are not alone.

[susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)]

Dear hurtone, you are not alone with your emotional distress, and it is not Satan! You are only reacting to years and years of manipulation and abuse. It is a normal reaction and nothing to be ashamed of. I remember being totally out of balance for a long time after I left GG. It is really hard to go through the whole healing process, but hang on there, it'll get better. What you need is people that have nothing to do with GG, that are true Christians and that will love you back to health and to a re-discovery of yourself (your ability to make desicions and to trust your own mind). Don't even attempt to do it on your own, you will only begin to believe that GG was right all along (that you are now following Satan etc.) and you will feel worse than you ever did. And if you ever find yourself thinking that GG isn't really an evil place, read some of the postings here on Factnet, it works like a miracle every time.
God bless you and I'm glad you are here

Susanna

[susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)]

Invite him to join us here in Factnet. Maybe it will give him strength to leave.

[minutus (minutus)]

GES did have a relationship with GGWO at one time. Bob Wilkin has visited Baltimore and spoke highly of the school, comparing it favorably with Dallas Theological Seminary. When I heard that crowed by a local GGWOer, I contacted Bob and asked about it. His remarks were in reference to MBC(not)S teaching classical dispensationalism as opposed to the progressive dispensationalist views of some DTS professors. I remember at that time (about 5 years ago) some GGWO churches were listed on the GES site. Guess things have cooled since then.

Personally, I think Bob Wilkin would be a good moderation team member if GGWO were ever to seek to reform with outside help. He shares their basic theology without the GGWO twists.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Hurtone,

Susanna wrote exactly what I would have written to you. Please know what you are experiencing has been experienced by many of us here on the forum. Please seek out someone to talk to. A Christian counselor can help you. You can also write to David Henke.. he is president of Watchman Fellowship and an expert on exiting cultic or abusive churches. He can give material to read and offer insight and support. I am enclosing his email for you.

God Bless you!

dhenke@watchman.org

[lee (lee)]

Who's hurtone? Couldn't find a posting with that name.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

whoa, where did her posts go?

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Yeah, where did her posts go? I was going to write something to help her as well last night but I fell asleep. Tonight when I looked her posts were gone. Something isn't right here!

Maria T

[isabella (isabella)]

Hurtone must have been scared. I can relate. Anyone else know the feeling? Hurtone, don't erase yourself. Come back and talk to us.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

rem

STOP scrolling our most current threads

[karen (karen)]

Arguendo,

I have a legal question to ask you. (Sorry this is off topic.) Our son was injured in the street in front of a friend's house and required surgery. Afterwards, our health insurance company wanted to know if the accident had taken place on private property; if so, they were going to seek compensation from the homeowners' insurance. Luckily, this was not the case.

Would I have been legally required to provide information about the homeowners if the accident had occurred on private property? They are friends and were in no way negligent.

The way I see it, our insurance company is required to provide appropriate health benefits because of our legal contract. I don't believe they have a right to make us sue other people because they don't want to deliver on their end of the contract.

If you don't feel comfortable answering my question, I understand. However, could you direct me to a link where I might find information? Thanks.

-Karen

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Your K is with the insurance company to pay your medical expenses. If they pay your medical expenses, then they have fulfilled their K with you and their obligation to you is over.

Your insurance company feels that it should not have to pay medical expenses if someone else is liable for those expenses. Their willingness to collect those expenses on your behalf keeps your insurance costs down and allows for accelerated payment of your claim.

If you look at your insurance policy you will probably see a clause (or a couple of pages) that says something like "if we pay your expenses, you assign your legal rights to collect or to sue the responsible party for those expenses." This is a benefit to you. Where injury occurs because of the negligence of another, it is to your benefit that the insurance company pays the expense to you and then gambles that it can recover from another rather than the insurance company not paying your claim until the outcome of litigation.

Third party litigation and liability for insurance claims takes up volumes. Better use of your time is reading your insurance policy with the aid of a good legal dictionary.

Whether you are required to participate in third party litigation is a term of your policy, but without a doubt you are required to accurately convey the underlying facts of your claim.

As you read your policy keep in the back of your mind that a person's legal right to recover damages is a claim that can be bought and sold by disinterested parties.

[karen (karen)]

Thanks, Arguendo. You framed the information in a way I never considered. And it hadn't occurred to me that my policy would address these issues. Since my husband's employer changes insurance companies almost on an annual basis, I've given up wading through the mountains of paperwork they send me. Anyway, I appreciate your taking the time to answer.

-Karen

[aurora (aurora)]

pk03908-
It is through LOVING you that Brown wants to win you back because they truly believe with all their hearts that you were called to that wonderful church with the Finished Work teaching that they think is not given anywhere else as deeply as at TBS.
Brown is SINCERE. Absolutely SINCERE.

How many years had you been attending?

[aurora (aurora)]

I'm guessing pk stands for pastor's kid and the number is SB's zip. Can you reveal your identity?
It's not as if you have said anything negative.
Also, what gives you the assurance you expressed that SB will dissaffiliate at some point? Did Brown indicate anything specifically when you spoke with him?
I would imagine he would wait until CHS passes away, don't you think?
Do you and your family attend another church in that area? I know someone who is looking for a place to worship in that general vicinity.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

PK,

Don't feel obligated to feed the rumor mill or to disclose your identity. I would say that people who pump you for information have an agenda and don't really have your best interests at heart.

[aurora (aurora)]

ok, pk.
I was wrong with my guessing and out of line with factnet protocol. Please forgive my presuming anything about you.

I am very interested in having some kind of dialog here though with you about SB. You said it was because of their Baltimore connection that you stopped attending. Didn't the Leura (sp?) scandal influence you? Was Brown aware that you were going to leave if his affiliation with Balt continued? You said you clearly communicated your feelings to him.

I bring this up because Brown and other branch churches (as at homebase) don't seem to pay attention to the feedback or input given to them by their congregations!!
The church IS the people in it. Not the pastor, his wife and the "inner circle"only. When will they LISTEN to the ones who leave or even before they leave. People have needs, ideas, "vision" etc etc!
No. It is recieved as going negative to the headship of the church, easily leading to "conspiracy", division and opening the door to satanic attack. Many have said that when enough folks have left they will finally be open to fundamental changes- is that happening at SB?

So I thought maybe you could speak here on ol'factnet where we are all finding voices and validation even if our pastors weren't interested in what we had to offer them for IDEAS FOR CHANGE.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Let me be clear

The people on this board who "talk smack" as you say, have been praying FOR YEARS for this church and to assume they haven't is wrong on your part.

The reasons you site for not making the South Berwick scandal public are the EXACT reasons people have been covering up Carl's sins for decades and that is EXACTLY why he continues to get away with it.

"For all the wrong that tbs and ggwo have done, one fact remains, thousand of unbelievers have come to know Christ because of the work that the people of tbs and ggwo have done for Christ."

That in no way at all negates the thousands who have been lied to, damaged, have had their lives, loves, families and marriages and their very health torn apart by the lies and corruption perpetrated by Carl and his cronies.

"If the church had chosen to press charges then the whole world would have been exposed to this and perhaps cast a shadow on God."

This is baloney. God does not need us to make him look good...and just exactly how does covering up criminal behavior and sin make God look when it is done in His name? This is ANOTHER example of TBS/GGWO ass covering and faulty reasoning.

"I encourage you to let down the emotional walls that have been built up with years of frustraion. Let go of the urge to see tbs and ggwo fall. Who cares what comes of tbs or ggwo? they are organizations and we are not called to save organizations, but people."

The walls you speak of are not emotional nor are they products of frustration. The steps we have taken, those of us who are long time members of this board, have been centered upon stopping this abuse of the congregation, the corruption in a so-called house of God, and attempting to inform the uninformed about exactly what the truth iis about this cult.

No amount of misdirection, accusation or any attempt to hyperspiritualize the debate will stop us from shouting from any rooftop that TBS is corrupt and not in any way a healthy soul winning, God loving church. Carl Stevens is a dangerous, arrogant old man...and you may care for Pastor Brown, but covering up a scandal in his church makes him every bit as wrong as Carl is. Stealing money is a crime, and if Pastor Brown didn't report it to his congregation or to the law on purpose, just exactly whose bottom is he really covering?

Sounds to me like he aided and abetted a criminal and that in itself is a crime. He also had to have grieved the Holy Spirit who does NOT condone theivery or hypocrasy.

Smells an awful lot like homebase. I can't say I am surprised.

[susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)]

pk03908 wrote:
"No matter what church we worship at or which pastor we listen to preach the fact remains that we as christians are called to win souls for Christ, and anything that could hinder that should be eliminated."

So you are saying that GG should be eliminated? You cannot honestly say that you are winning souls to Christ when you bring them to GG to be destroyed! How many people haven't become believers in GG only to have left with a deep resentment in their hearts towards Christians in general. These people are not seen in churches, they don't reach out to the lost, they don't impact the world, they are not the lights they were called to be etc. Was it good thing that they were saved through GG? No! They were taught to worship a man, ignore the Holy Spirit, resent other Christians, stop thinking for themselves, forsake their unbelieving families and so on. Would you take a newborn baby and hand him over to an abusive home? Of course you wouldn't. Why would you take a newborn child of God and hand him over to GG to be destroyed both physically and emotionally?


Aurora: So I thought maybe you could speak here on ol'factnet where we are all finding voices and validation even if our pastors weren't interested in what we had to offer them for IDEAS FOR CHANGE.

PK: "And as for finding your "voice". That perhaps is the most self centered thing that I have seen on this board. My "voice" does not matter in the grand scheme of things. Gods voice is what matters."

I think you misunderstood Aurora. I believe she was talking about being heard after years of wilful ignoring by the leaders in GG and to have those thoughts validated as truthful. If your voice didn't matter as you stated, why are you here? Why do you want "your voice" to be heard by others if it is of no importance. I believe every word we say has importance because our words reveal what is in our heart and what is in our heart reveals who we are.

Prov 23:7a
For as he thinks in his heart, so is he
Matt 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.

GG would love to make us believe that we are of no importance. Remain silent and pray... don't expose anything you may have seen or heard... give grace... Can't you see where these thoughts come from?

Susanna

[lee (lee)]

Thanks Roberta for having an unending supply of energy to reiterate the reasons we are here and to reveal the wrong thinking in regard to what the ministry puts out as 'good' reasons for coverups.
Thank God, he uses our voices!!!

[stephen (stephen)]

read this it really sucks !

That is all that matters -- it is not about me, it is not about Leura, it is not about tbs or ggwo, it is about revealing Christ to the world. I believe that Pastor Brown felt that this incident would hinder the process of revealing Christ to those that need HIM.

these stupid people are using God as an excuse for not letting the people no that money was stole. I think that the real reson was becuz Greater Grace would be in the newspapers agin and they wanted to proteck pastor Stevens some more. what a bunch of dumb liers!

[rem (rem)]

she only want hurting peoples, that why

she not care of souls saved

she like hurting peoples

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

" I guess that my coming to this post was a mistake. I thought that I would find uplifting words, instead all I read about are people full of anger wanting to vent and encourage more anger."

You are wrong, my friend. We are simply not letting go of the truth, and the truth about GGWO is negative. That's just the way it is. If speaking out and repeatedly saying the truth before God is NOT what you want, I can understand that. There are many people who leave GGWO, recover and move on. I am happy for them, truly, and pray they learn from the GGWO experience and have wonderful lives full of God's grace.

But there are some of us, who for reasons many and varied, have stuck to this cause of exposing Carl and the corruption so that MORE people can be free, recover and move on with God.

You see, not everyone can see the truth, not everyone can process all the damage without help, not everyobne can handle the betrayal without someone to turn to.

I was fortunate to have a bit of exit counseling and good friends to help me when I left...and STILL it was a wrenching experience. The people who leave are people who may need help. We wish to be there for them.

We also know that most people don't have clue one about the truth of GGWO...here, from some of us, there is truth to learn.

We are not simply gathered together to commiserate or swap abuse stories, although we have done some of that...we are here to provide information, comfort, a place to vent, whatever. We have wonderful men and women of God here who can parse the scripture and explain the false doctrines, we have men and women here from every walk of life...a blend of humanity that has the ability to help.

I cannot speak for everyone, but I bet they'd say something similar...I know God wants me here, speaking out, saying what is true. This is God's purpose to free people...and we are glad to do what we can to be a part of that.

And the biggest part of this is telling the people the truth...

[minutus (minutus)]

rem from remulak?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Isn't that in France?

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

LOL. Trick or treat.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Friends,

It is important to understand that no one "gets saved through" GGWO or any other organization. It is the agency of the Holy Spirit working in a person to give them a simultaneous gift of faith AND repentance that produces Biblical salvation. Yes, the preaching of the Gospel is paramount to God, but if the totality of God's truth is neglected, then one has to question if the genuine Gospel is being preached.

Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

We are not responsible for defending God's character as He is quite capable of doing that for Himself.


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Bless you Brian...perfectly said!

[rwkme2 (rwkme2)]

Folks, I'm new to this board. Just ran across it via Joel Freeman, my dear friend. I probably know a lot of you here or at least you might know me from years ago, the "old" days at S. Berwick. I was dubbed "the greatest song leader in the world" at that time. Not my doing... I left TBS just before the Dovydenas thing erupted. Curious about a lot of you, how you are doing, etc. I was under the foolish impression when I left that several who knew me well would come to my church, but I had no idea at that time how deeply they were hurt. So many have never gone back to church because of such deep wounds... I did try to set up a meeting face to face w/ Stevens when I decided to leave, but it was a no go. I was very close to him. I guess my ordination certificate was the only one he ever wrote a personal note on. I was devastated when I found out what was going on and had to have a close friend stay right by side almost every minute for 3 days. I did find that the heritage I had of growing up in a solid Christian home was something real to fall back upon during those days. I should say I adopted a policy of not making it a point to spread it around about the horrible things going on in TBS, but also made it a point that I was not going to avoid talking about it when someone asked. When the news got out that I had left I began getting phone calls from all over the country from those who had left and from others who were trying to leave. I found widows who lived terrified after they left, penniless, for fear of reprisal from the TBS' Mafia. The devastation was incredible. Still, we had wonderful years in TBS seeing God move marvelously, in spite of the corruption at the top. A lot of that came from folks like you, folks who truly loved God, and were doing all you knew how to do to live right and be a witness for him. I do trust each one of you will be able to grow in God's true grace and enjoy life to the fullest.
Fond regards to all of you.

[isabella (isabella)]

Is that you Ron? No matter, welcome and thank you for posting. Give us some of your insight when you have time. There are many reading this board who need to know the truth about TBS/GGWO...not to attack the 'ministry' but to explain it's agenda so that they will know how it operates and so that they can decide for themselves whether to participate or not.
Thanks,
Isabella

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Welcome to you! You must be Ron Kelly and you were a grand song leader! Singing all those songs is one thing I remember fondly. I still sing many of them today to my little one, like, "He signed the deed".

It appears that God is using the internet to bring down the decades of corruption at TBS/GGWO. The answer to many years of prayer by thousands of folks who were burned by TBS/GGWO is now coming to pass. My heart aches for the folks who have yet to recover from the damage done to them during their time at TBS/GGWO. Welcome and God Bless You, Ron Kelly!!

Louise (Maguire back then) Connolly

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Welcome, Pastor Kelly. I've missed you ever since you left Lenox. As with Bruce Stevens and many others who left, I never heard any explanations. Thank God I hardly ever went to raps. You were always a great encouragement to me. Please tell us what you feel led to. I'd love to know what the Lord has done for you. Testimonies of those who have gone on with God after leaving are of great value here. My email address is bob.brinton@verizon.net

[lee (lee)]

Thank you Ron Kelly for posting a bit of your story. It is an encouragement to all us here.
There is indeed life after TBS!

[bruder5 (bruder5)]

Ron Kelly. Welcome to the dialogue! I hope "the story" of people leaving TBS/GGWO can bring encouragement and hope to those struggling. Those of us that left years ago faced the same toxic banishment as some on the board are experiencing now. There is nothing more powerful then authentic story. I see much of this as a recovery process and a move toward sanctuary for many. Those that left years ago can offer their own experience, strength and hope. Joel Freeman, Jim Faucett, Bob Brinton, Lee, Doris and others can offer points of reference. Ron, I remember the Kingsman in Wiscasset. Strange Days indeed...

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Dear Ron,

Thank you for joining the discourse. I must tell you when you left it caused me to ask questions and doubt if I should continue in TBS. Let me explain further: I remember visiting your house, with Becky and Jim Cromwell. I remember them pointing out a huge cabinet you had made just for Carl's cassette tapes. It seemed you had hundreds and hundreds. I was both in awe and a little scared by it. It seemed to me that building a "special cabinet" for "Pastor's tapes" seemed a little over the top. But I was in awe of your obvious love and devotion to the man. I reflected back on that incident when you left. I remember thinking that for you to leave someone you loved so much then something really bad must have happened for you to turn away from that love. I am glad I can share this now. I am thankful to have the opportunity to tell those who left so many years ago that you did have an impact on those that remained. We didn't have the Internet back then, we didn't hear your stories but your life did impact us in a great way. You were the "original leavers" and you paved the way for the "long line of leavers" that extends into the present. Thank you!

[aurora (aurora)]

pk03908-

Back to our discussion...
It was not tithes that he stole but building fund donations from what I understand. There were many fund raising events and other large gifts given toward their project over several years. Since no prosecution was made, what was there to prevent old Juan from ripping off another unsuspecting church somewhere else in the country? Wouldn't Jesus say to follow the law of our land? Don't we all teach our children that honesty is the best policy? God could have handled the public relations angle!

Anyway, the folks I know up there still attend happily, still believe they are in the best church in the seacoast, and still are hanging in there till "the worst attack they've ever endured" passes and "revival" kicks in. Meanwhile, the wake of wounded keeps aflowing...

[aurora (aurora)]

nonotone-

Wow, I can't get over that you are Brian Bowman. You won't remember me but we both know Rob from Kansas City and his sis in NH.
Now that I know who you are I want to re-read your posts from all these months! I seem to recall from them that you have been transitioning away from GG and now are completely out. Is that correct?
I'm not at the point of being comfortable saying my name here yet. How did you come to that for yourself?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Ron Kelly! I bet you still sound as great as ever. Are you still in PA?

I remember the discussions we had with others right around the time I got in touch with Alan Lang. The suggestion was made that a website needed to be put up. Factnet has obviously more than met the expectations we talked about in 2002. Be sure you visit www.carlstevens.org (http://www.carlstevens.org) as well.

[aurora (aurora)]

pk,
Will your father visit Brian? Hasn't he marked him as being "off"?

[rwkme2 (rwkme2)]

To all of you who so kindly welcomed me, I am totally overwhelmed. Believe me when I say it brings me to tears. I think of several who came to me after the news was out that I'd left, one of whom was Steve Quinlan. I invited Steve to my church to speak. Steve told me it had been several years since he had even picked up a Bible. Steve has gone on and was doing great in ministry when I last heard. The same sort of thing with Bill Fisher. He told me he hadn't done any singing at all for 6 years until I invited him to come. As for me, yes, I live in PA. I am in a C&MA church now. We have a church in Baghdad with over 500 members!!! I have done a lot of revivals and incorporate singing into the services since I left speaks. No room to tell you of the amazing services. One more thing, Bruce Brown was my best friend in Maine. I love that man dearly- still. He wrote me a hand written letter and told me to stay away from all TBS people when he found out I left. It may shock some of you, but I still love Carl Stevens, too. I always will although I would never have anything to do with him or a TBS/GGWO church. When I left, I left, period. The damage that was and is still being done by them is immeasurable. But love was something God put in my heart. I did go through anger which is entirely normal, but could not let it stay. It has no permanent place in a believer's heart. God will see to that. All I can say is, yes, there is life beyond TBS. It's a whole different world and is hard to adjust to sometimes, because of the wonderful services we had, always packed to the rafters, etc., but I wouldn't trade what God has done for me in the revivals I've been in and personal soul winning for anything in the world. I am very blessed.

Bless you all- RK

[muskyrose (muskyrose)]

Ron It is so good to hear you are well. You and your family have always had a special place in my heart ever since I was a teen. (when you came to our home with the Keystones and the Envoys and Poppa Cary cooked for all of you) And when the girls (Debbie and Julie) were in my wedding in So.Berwick way back when.

I don't think I ever thanked you for all you did for Poppa and Momma after they left. You were such a tremendous help to them and a wonderful friend. Thank you for all you did. I know you and Cece made their lives a bit easier during their last years here on earth.

I'd love to contact you. My e-mail address is
MuskyRose@aol.com

<>>>>>>>>>>>>--------Bonnie

[rwkme2 (rwkme2)]

It's just fantastic finding folks here I knew years ago. So many memories... we did have good times for sure. So tragic that the enemy got in and spoiled it all, but God still is over all.
Bless you all.
Ron K

[rwkme2 (rwkme2)]

Some of you may never have known why I left TBS, especially because of the campaign of lies to cover it up since everyone knew how close I was to Stevens. It was a series of things. A major thing was when I found out how he was conning widows out of every penny they had. That floored me. Another was public lying. I had worked closely with the Billy Graham Crusade board in Portland and was astonished when I got word Rev. Graham was not allowing TBSers to participate in the crusade. I got a list of 5 reasons from Graham. One was lying. I was present at the meeting when the lie was told that Billy referred to so I knew it was true. Then when Stevens threatened to sue Graham that just added to it. Then there was the money disappearing, girls, on and on it went. I sought counsel from others before leaving and this ol' Nazarene got tremendous help from a disabled Baptist missionary lady! Even then it took a long time to discern the Lord's direction in it all. He gave such beautiful guidance and assurance. I KNEW it was Him. A lot more involved but that's a peek at it. Any questions I'd be glad to help if I can. My email is RKellyJr5327@suscom.net.
Bless you all dearly

[nonotone (nonotone)]

pk03908 and aurora

You can reach me at:

nonotone@mac.com

[aurora (aurora)]

I know someone who gave over $10,000 to the building fund in South Berwick during the period of the embezzlement. Should they pursue legal action? It was 4 years ago, though.
Maybe there is an attorney who reads this who would have some ideas.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Time for our friend Arguendo to resurface.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

My son Dan has been in the process of installing Panther on our Mac, and ran into difficulties. I've been unable to check my mail or the board. This is my daughters computer, a laptop; and I feel very uncomfortable using it. I'll check a few other threads now, but won't be staying here long at the moment. Hopefully Dan will be able to figure it out later today. We also have a family email adress (mbjbrinton@hotmail.com) which I think I can find my way to on here, but I won't be using this much. Love to you all, Bob

[arguendo (arguendo)]

The donor should seek legal advice in the jurisdiction in which the cause of action occurred. In this case, probably Maine.

My personal opinions are these:

1. The building got renovated. Where's the complaint? (Embezzlement is a crime to be prosecuted by a district attorney, as a donor you only have civil litigation available to you. So how was the donor damaged?)

2. One would have to consider, do you really want to sue people like Pastor and Nancy Brown? More pointedly, do you really want to add more grief to people who have watched their son constantly fight off death for 20 years? Do you really want to sue people who must be/will be facing the fact that they have been maintaining insidious lies for a man who was wholly unworthy of such loyalty? While in fact you would be suing the church org., but in actuality, you would be suing the Browns.

3. If you had $10,000 to give, you probably didn't need it and you probably got a nifty tax write off.

4. It was a gift. See my comments to Nancy Curra regarding the unconditional nature of gifts.

5. Funds for legal fees and a judgment against TBS would come from tithes and offerings. Remember, the person who is morally obligated to pay, IMHO, is the person who stole the money in the first place. This is a similar issue to the Alan Lang settlement.

6. Civil litigation is a lousy way to resolve problems in a church or with other Christians. But I do think civil action is a good way (although expensive) to make leaders answer for their actions in public, especially when they refuse to do so otherwise, as notice to the public.

7. The real harm done here is the failure of Pastor Brown to trust God and to trust his flock and tell the truth about this matter. I think a complaint to the IRS and Maine tax office that deals with non-profits is the only thing that should be done in this situation, assuming that the donor has already confronted Pastor Brown about the situation and he has done nothing.

(Message edited by arguendo on December 12, 2004)

[arguendo (arguendo)]

RJ:

I gave an objective answer to a legal question that was posed to me. I simply laid out what should be considered before taking any such action. These are not moral attitudes, these are the facts.

You attacked my moral fortitude based on an objective answer to a legal question. You accused me of covering for Brown. You twisted my words to make the point you wanted to make, not the point I made.

"I am seriously disgusted" is not an attack? This not a judgment? You assert that somehow my position breeds corruption?

And lady, you might consider the all caps rage has never been a device I have used here until you falsely accused me of covering up for the Browns. You are void of conscience.

I've had enough of your lies and irresponsibility.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Believe me, RJ. I didn't do it for your sake.

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

Arguendo,
I think you gave a very good response to the original question. Thank you.

[aurora (aurora)]

Thanks for your clear and concise opinion, Arguendo.
I will send it on to the person I mentioned (they don't read factnet!). I don't know the exact circumstances of their giving the sum of money but I'm pretty sure they are not rolling-in-dough people.

I see your point about the Browns. Their suffering has been great with Steve's illness and all. It's hard to believe that such seemingly nice, sincere, and humble people could be culpible (sp?) in the whole long legacy of Stevens' cult. So so many have been "drawn in" through them....

Live and let live I guess, wouldn't you say?

[aurora (aurora)]

No, you know what? Brown has slandered. He has gossiped. I know. I was there to hear it. My husband heard many things out of his and Goldworthy's mouths over the years. The goal is just like CHS's: always preserve the all-important "frontline work of saving souls." Cover up, preach unity and "the cause" and brush aside "the dross" like blowing dust off a desk.

Sweet humble Brown has thrown people away too. Hard to believe, I know- a little cognitive dissonance goes a long way to uphold the humble persona of a "beloved" leader.

Stevens-esque? You bet. Just a phlagmatic instead of a sanguine...

[sad_u_see (sad_u_see)]

Aurora...I think the Brown's are sweet and P. Goldworthy too. I know that these circumstances are not the greatest. But I wouldn't touch things that are too high for you. Hey if you are without sin then go ahead and cast the first stone. But really...attacking the brown's when in fact they are amazing and sweet. If he did anything let him stand before God. As you and I will too.

[sad_u_see (sad_u_see)]

As Dr. Phil said once..."you can flatten a pancake as flat as you want but it still has two sides".

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

be careful aurora....when I tried to say that about the browns I got totally flamed...I happen to agree with you about the Browns, took notice of the fact that I thought to cover their culpability was wrong, and stevenesque, and got slammed for my trouble....deleted the posts, got emailed by an arguendo supporter....be careful, A isn't fond of differing points of view....I would say it was just mine, but you're saying the same thing I did...just a heads up...

[arguendo (arguendo)]

RJ: Grow up. You got flamed because you attacked me personally, not because you attacked the Browns. However, I am sorry someone harassed you on your personal e-mail instead of addressing you here. I certainly do not support that sort of thing.

Aurora: I am very empathetic regarding your feelings about the Browns. For many months I have struggled with similar feelings about the Browns and their culpability. My anger was very upsetting to my family that had left, so I have done nothing with the reservation that if I ever heard any slander against them come from the TBS I would do everything in my power to make people accountable. Vet every dirty little secret, contact every interested party.

But you know, you cannot do that sort of thing without paying a personal price. It's one thing to be angry and its another to do harm in the name of justice. People get angry, think they want to hire a lawyer to make things right, and then they are horrified by the fallout. Horrified by who they have to become to win and make the other side pay.

Sad: I don't think the Browns are sweet or good people anymore. I used to be a big fan of the Browns. Now I see them as people who have been used and manipulated by CHS, and then perpetuated the use and manipulation to get theirs, to get the "double portion" due them. (I'm not really talking about money). There is no doubt in my mind that the Browns know where all of CHS's skeleton's are buried, as well as their own. But I think the difficult problem with the Browns is that they are victims as well as victimizers. I think they think they have done the right thing. I think they are true CHS believers. And I think their lives are tragic and they seem hopelessly lost in the lies.

There is a big difference between condemnation and accountability. Casting a stone is about condemnation. I think people here are mostly talking about accountability. I think TBS/GGWO is notorious for making condemnation and accountability synonymous, when they are not.

[isabella (isabella)]

"But I think the difficult problem with the Browns is that they are victims as well as victimizers."

Exactly, Arguendo!
They are the Saps turned the Sap-Suckers.

Also, regarding large sums of money missing out of these branches, I have seen that so many times, it would make your head spin..or maybe it's their head that's spinning.

As I have said before:

What they do is easy to do, but you have to want to do it. You have to love the money more than you love the people.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Exactly Arguendo. Well said.

Jim Faucett gave an excellent analogy concerning the hopelessly tangled fishing cast. Who has the patience to untangle it? It is easier just to cut the line. This situation is complex because it is not a tangled fishing line but tangled people. So who has the patience to untangle this? God does! We must operate in His Spirit with patience, kindness, long-suffering and forbearance. It is not in God's heart to condemn the individuals involved. He is exceedingly patient. It is easy to lash out in frustration towards an individual because people we love are being hurt. God is not frustated, He is quietly and patiently untangling the line. EVERYONE posting here as been untangled from the line.. He did that. He enlists us to help him. We can only do this in the spirit, viewing this as He does. I have stated ad nauseum "it is not the sin but the system" As humans, we view in linear time, God does not. Just because the Browns or anyone else happens to be entangled in the line in this moment of time does not mean they are less valued by God, even the leaders! I am not minimizing the actions of the leaders or the evil perpetrated on thousands of people or the destroyed families devastated by their participation in this abuse. I will not lay the fishing line down, I will not cut the line but I will just keeping listening to my patient God as He untangles. He is not done yet.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Arguendo...whatever.

[aurora (aurora)]

I agreed with much of what you said, Arguendo.

And. Jeannie, it IS like a tangled fishing line, that's for sure.

And the point isn't to crucify people who have been duped and are duping. It just needs to be ACKNOWLEDGED that even the leaders who are nice, leaders who are likable, who maybe even loved their congregation for the most part, have still been infected by the poison of CHS doctrine and have KNOWINGLY abused members with it.

Some of the folks in SBTBS definetly see and know of the abuses done by the humble leadership but, unfortunatly, you know..if it's not happening to THEM...and ,after all, the teaching is so great...

"...and so the German townspeople, unable to see over the high walls, disregarded the putrid smells that periodically wafted through the air they breathed.."

[pine_cone (pine_cone)]

Regarding the taking of funds from the South Berwick church: the man who took the money is the one in the wrong. What would it have accomplished to prosecute him? We would not have got the money back AND it would have further humiliated his family. Pastor Brown's quietness in regards to this issue was for the sake of the innocent - the man's family still attend the church and so do the parents of the girl the man seduced. Would any of you really been heartless enough to expose all of that from the pulpit? The man was long gone - it would only have hurt those that remained.

[tess (tess)]

What is the huge problem with TRUTH? How about rendering to Cesar what is Cesar's? What? Nobody is subject to the laws of the land because they are SPECIAL? BUSINESS AS USUAL.

[pine_cone (pine_cone)]

The truth is is that somethings are not everybody's business! It is wrong to intentionally hurt other people just because some think they need to know everything. Not embarrassing the innocent cannot be looked on as not telling the truth. There are often times that not repeating a matter is the wise thing to do - especially when the person who committed the injustice is not the one who will be injured by smearing the gossip everywhere.

[pine_cone (pine_cone)]

What is the point of taking legal action against the Brown's or the church regarding the building fund money? We, the people, already had to replace that money to pay the bills that Juan Leura was supposed pay with the money. If the gift was given for the building fund and we replaced the money out of our own pockets then it was replaced - and the building still finished as was the giver's intent. The real issue is him, he took, he did it. We already paid for his greed once.

[aurora (aurora)]

It was against the law not to report the theft.

[tess (tess)]

Do you believe in taking legal action against anyone ever? Or is it just outsiders that should be expected to not break the law?

[arguendo (arguendo)]

"It was against the law not to report the theft"

It was?

[aurora (aurora)]

well, correct me then, arguendo.

doesn't the IRS have laws regarding non-profits?

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Aurora, I'm sure that Arguendo can answer you more accurately, but it is unlikely that a theft would be required by law to be reported.

There are laws that madate reporting of certain crimes, circumstances or conditions to certain agencies, but often they vary from state to state.

Further, I believe that the IRS doesn't care if you put currency through the paper shredder, as long as it is claimed as income or, at least, revenue.

[aurora (aurora)]

but what about the payoff to Alan Lange- wasn't it mentioned by someone that it was a misuse of tithes, for ex?

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Aurora, I don't believe that offering it was illegal. I would suppose that it was an out-of-court settlement agreement.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

1. Embezzlement is a crime, but it's very hard to for a prosecutor to bring charges without a complaintant and I do not know that that a victim is compelled to bring a complaint.

2. My point has always been that the Browns have an ethical responsibility to inform the congregation of the misuse of funds contributed by the congregation. There may be civil remedies for any person that contributed misused funds, but I don't know for sure. That's why you need to consult an attorney licensed in Maine.

3. I have never named names regarding this matter. Pine_cone for all of your heart felt empathy for the innocents involved, I note that you alleged the culpable party.

4. Funds for legal fees and a judgment against TBS would come from tithes and offerings. Remember, the person who is morally obligated to pay, IMHO, is the person who stole the money in the first place. This is a similar issue to the Alan Lang settlement. (Using church funds for legal settlements/judgements is mostly an ethical/moral issue, not a legal issue).

AB is right about the IRS.

[ndchute (ndchute)]

rwkme2 Is that Ron Kelly? I have not seen you since you married my wife and I. We have a 10 year old son together. Go figure. If I've got the right RK then pop me an email sometime.

[pine_cone (pine_cone)]

Arguendo - the culpable party's name had already been mentioned, but it would have been best if I had not referred to it either.

[rwkme2 (rwkme2)]

Yo Mr. Chute. It was great hearing from thee and catching up on news of friends. Anyone else want to write drop me a line at RKellyJr5327@suscom.net. Many blessings to you all in 2005. And DBumpa- it was great hearing from you, too.
rk

[abi (abi)]

Was anyone here present in S.Berwick during the years 1980-1987? I was a child member of TBS at the time. I did not live in the church- but I went to school at the affiliated Seacoast Christian Academy- ha!. It was so eerily to hear someone else describe the setting where I spent so much of my childhood. Somehow it feels completely unreal, it is a shock to realize that other people must have experienced similair things... My family moved away amid the Baltimore scandel in 1988 or 1989 but they were no less twisted for it. I escaped to live on the streets not long afterwards and eventually was made a ward of the state. So legally I am an orphan. There has been no one I could look to help me patch together my dark and fragmented past. I am in shock that I found this web site! (I guess I was finally ready to look- life is stable and good now) I am wondering if there is anyone out there who I might be able to talk to or have something in common with? Does anyone in that chuch perhaps remember the Coffmans? Friends of the wealthy and prominent members, the Hills: David, Antionette, &amp; Buff. Who else? Well, I remember Nancy &amp; Nancy (Alquist and Brown) singing thier duets for service. To pass the time I used to mark in a bible how many times Pastor Brown said, "Oh, Sweet Jesus!", in a sermon. I remember the Waldens, and Mountain Mike who died mysteriously- I went to school with his son Shawn Fletcher...their laundrymat used to be right across the street.
Any other survivors out there?

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I was in Lenox those years. But hang around here if you don't get an immediate response. I'm sure someone on here will have been up there then.

[aurora (aurora)]

abi-
I was there during those years. I knew Ginny and Kristy and Damon, Buff and the Hills.

I'm so glad you found this factnet board where you will find some keys to the mystery of your troubled childhood. I urge you to take time to peruse all the threads as there are gems mixed in all these (almost 40,000 posts!) that will help you. It has helped me in the transition out of the cult after 25 years and to rethink what it means to be a Christian. There's a heck of a lot of wisdom shared by some wise, kind and compassionate souls here....

If you want to post your email, I could write you directly or we can correspond right here on this thread.

God bless you, dear abi.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Seacoast Christian Academy was never affiliated with TBS. Pastor Reynolds never warmed up to TBS. They merely rented space at TBS. Reynolds, although very uptight, did not perpetuate the nonsense of CHS at all.

[abi (abi)]

Aurora,
Thank you for your response! Do you remember me? I would love to talk to you more...Is it safe to post an email address here? Your message is so shocking that it brings tears to my eyes. I have spent so many years without a trace to my past, it is overwhelming now... I don't really even know how to begin. Did you know Ginny &amp; Damon well? You must have if you knew their names right off the bat. I hardly know what to say, this is so...overwhelming, and a relief at the same time...This part of my life did really happen.
Thank you again so much for taking the time to respond.
Abi

[abi (abi)]

PS Arguendo,
I know CSA and TBS were not officially linked...I was a child member of the South Berwick church, and at the time they endorsed sending sending TBS children to school there. So I attended classes with some of the same childern I knew from the church. There was another Christian grade school I attended before that (in New Hampshire I think)but I cannot remember the name. I guess there weren't a whole lot of schools around that would meet their requirements.

[aurora (aurora)]

I do remember you, abi. You must be 28 or 30 now? I did know Ginny and Damon well for a season and kept connected with Kristy longer. Antoinette kept in touch with Ginny and I think I remember her telling me that your family went through a crisis but she didn't say more that that.

I knew Buff well and always wondered how that was for you girls to have someone so sick with aids living with you (was it for 1 or 2 years?). What other memories do you have from those years? I could mention many different folks. Were you friends with the Ahlquist girls? I do remember the night Gary Fletcher died- Shawn stayed with us. Mary Fletcher knew Ginny and they had worked together to help Missy Bennett who was an overwhelmed single mom with 4 kids (and a prescription drug addict- she later died of an overdose after moving back to Florida in the early 90's). Mary remarried and lives in Maine somewhere and Shawn grew up to look just like his dad! I believe he's married with children and living in Maine as well. Gary's death was really not mysterious. He had extreme obesity and hurt his leg severly while driving the schoolbus. The infection spread and became fatal so fast- I think it must have been a staff infection or something like that.

What became of Kristy? Has she been a connection for you all these years or is she astranged from you? I used to try to "dig deep" with her but she was only comfortable with a more surface way of relating. I figured she must be close to her sister so didn't need to relate closely with anyone else at the time.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Abi

I am glad to hear that you are healing. There have been so many people abused by the various incarnations of TBS, and it is my prayer everyday that those who were and are dealing with physical, spiritual and sexual abuse will find the path to peace.

I was not in South Berwick during those years, but I was in TBS then, first in Rumford Maine, then in Lenox. It was a terrible period of time...so many changes, so many people damaged, so many lies.

I am what you might call an unofficial advocate for the young people who read this board who are now or have been sexually abused in this cult. I urge them to seek help as you have done...I will add you to my prayers Abi, and I know the kids who read this will too. They care a lot about those adults who have suffered as they have done, and I know they will "bang hard on God's door" as they put it, for you.

If you ever need an ear, a friend, someone to just listen my name is Roberta and my email is

srfern@verizon.net

I am not a trained counselor, but I care and am here if ever...

God Bless You

RJ

[arguendo (arguendo)]

SENHCA was likely the name. SCA was a result of a division in SENHCA after a popular administrator was let go. Some of the school's teachers stayed at SENHCA and some went with Reynolds to SCA. Neither SENHCA nor SCA thought that TBS was a healthy church, but, of course, would accept children from TBS.

Since some pretty negative things are being said about TBS, I would like to make it clear that Seacoast Christian Academy(SCA) was not affiated with TBS in any way.

The point is that SCA and TBS were officially NOT linked.

[aurora (aurora)]

abi-
I think the school you attended originally was at the Bethel Assembly of God in Portsmouth. SCS wasn't started till 1985 and there weren't many Christian school options back then, like you said. I remember one mom describing how the set-up was at Bethel: cubicles where each child worked separately on their little workbooklets. (Coming so recently out of teacher training at a secular college that emphasized experiential education, I was a little freaked out by that, but figured I just had a lot to learn about the Christian life!)

I remember your mom became good friends with Maddy's kindergarten teacher, Dot Chase. Do you remember her? She was also a liturgical dancer who had studied with a troupe from England and toured Europe sharing the Gospel through dance...Sadly, Dorothy died in a car accident a couple of years ago in New Hampshire. She was driving back from visiting her brother who has retardation and lives in a facility in northern NH.

[abi (abi)]

Yes- I just turned 30 recently...I'm so sorry to hear about Missy Bennet. I remember her now...but when I knew her I think she only had two children. How very sad! I also seem to recall mention of an injury Mountain Man Mike's leg- but it seemed very sudden and mysterious to me. The next day at school Shawn behaved as if nothing had happened and never talked about it afterward (at least to us). I felt very sad for him though because he used to always bring in magazines with pictures of his dad during his wrestling career. He was obviously very proud of him but he never brought another one to school.
Yes Kristy was a bit cold... she never warmed up to me either so I didn't know if there was another side to her. Perhaps she and my mother were close -but my mother wasn't close to me either, so I wasn't privy to much of their world.
We knew the Alquists, like a number of other families in the church but our family did not have many close friends. Other children rarely came to visit...I always felt that even the church people could tell something about us was not quite right.
I do not know what any of these people (Ginny, Damon, Kristy) are doing now as I was taken out of the familiy's custody for physical and sexual abuse. When I first tried to talk to my father about it he and my mother called all the relatives and short list of people that our family had ever known to tell them that I was an insane drug addict and not to listen to anything I said. (effectively disowning me) My father dropped me off on a curb and told me "Well, good luck on life" and drove away. Later, when abuse of my sister came to light the state became involved legally and took us both into states custody. That may have been the crisis they told A. Hill about or perahps it was my earlier suicide attempt. Ahhh...heartwarming memories- I don't talk about this stuff very often.
I guess I'll stop for now so you can write back.
-Wait, for a second there I thought I knew who you were but that was another woman named Victoria...
Talk to you soon,
Abi

[ethelmertz (ethelmertz)]

Abi--Welcome! You will find there is alot of prayer and support here. It is a wonderful place. I wasn't in Maine but in Lenox. Be blessed!

[aurora (aurora)]

abi!
Are you saying your mother didn't believe you?! Was the perpetrater your father? Did your mother believe Maddy?

I hung out a lot with your folks and, having been a victim of sexual abuse myself as a child and believing I can spot a pervert a mile away, never picked up anything there. It was only later on, when I didn't see you all except to say hi at church, that someone said your dad was homeschooling you (&amp; not your sister)in the afternoon. That's when flags went up...He was a pretty intense guy. His intellectual way about him and his advanced degrees in physics I know intimidated Brown and the rest. He would sometimes say a critical word about the message to me after church and that is probably why I distanced myself from him. (I was such a do-bee!)The place was too podunck for him, I could kinda tell.

I wish we could speak on the phone, abi, because I am such a slow typist- but I still have a need to be anonymous here. Does anyone reading here have ideas on how I can get her my # and not give it to the whole world?

[abi (abi)]

Oh Yes, Dot Chase of course I remember her. She taught my sister's kindergarten class but I was in 1st grade then somewhere else that was a K-12. A much bigger school the Bethel...maybe it will come to me one of these days. It did have the same experimental set-up though- those P.A.C.E. work at your own speed books with all of us shuffled into little cubicle rows.
Did I ever come over to your house, where might I find a memory of you? What do you remember about me?
I can give you my email address if you want, I just wanted to make sure that it was safe to post it here. I really appreciate you talking to me, you are certainly a God-send!
Abi

[abi (abi)]

send it to this email: meowsquared@hotmail.com
Why do you need to stay anon here? Is there a safety concern? Should I be worried?
A

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Abi,
Some that post may still have family members in the ministry. And they don't want the leadership to slander them and create further separation with their loved ones still in...

[aurora (aurora)]

That's a good question. No, you don't have to be worried. The folks who left a long time ago are so darn free in this area, I envy them. It really has to do with the fear that still lingers in me because I am so recently out and this board is seen as so evil by those still "in" and anyone who posts on it is seen as evil....It's actually ridiculous and silly and my husband says I should just post with my name because what do we care what "they" think. Well, I don't care what they think but at night when I wake up sometimes a wave of fear comes over me that they will do something to me (they know where I live). The fear is dissipating. The time will come when I will be completely open.

There are so many anonymous posters here- we probably have different motivations for it. It would be interesting to start a thread on why we feel compelled to remain so!

[abi (abi)]

I can certainly understand that...I had forgotten just how intense the doctrine was- Or maybe I thought I was exaggerating it a bit in my head. But this site really reminds me how sexist, controlling, ridgid and fear based it all is.
You're right about my father, he always held himself a little bit spiritually superior to everyone. Actually, a lot superior, he saw himself as some sort of modern day John the Baptist doomed to be misunderstood by the little people in this world (everyone else). He saw me as one and the same with him. Too intelligent, doomed to a life of lonliness except for my mission from God. This was to lead the world into the new age, saving souls for Christ as Armageddon (the second holocost: invading Communists coming for us true Christians) was fast appraoching.
Blah! that was a mouthful...
Anyhow- If you send your number to my email address I can call you or vice versa. I would love to talk to you more. My email is meowsquared@hotmail.com
Take care,
Abi

[lee (lee)]

Aurora,
Just want to tell you that even after being out for a long time, when I first started posting, I did so with feelings like I had to look over my shoulder! I wondered when I'd get a knock on the door with some kind of a supeona or something. I got phone calls from a couple still in, or should I say, they were in then out then back in! I think they wanted us to stop but we wouldn't, and we used our real names. There have been no repercussions, but I remember the spooky feelings! I think using my real name has kept me from saying things I shouldn't! Sometimes, I would've loved to just rant......I came close but not like I could have!

[heather (heather)]

Lee we did have to look over our shoulders. Those of us here in Greater disgrace Newark got visits to our homes and veiled threats and not so veiled threats for posting. Its was a bit unnerving at first, but know its evidence for the Attorney Generals office. <smiles>

[gostly (gostly)]

I never knew I loved the Attorney General sooooooo much!

[itsahokes (itsahokes)]

I noticed Ron Kelly's name on this thread some time back. Is he still on here? If so, Ron, are you the same Ron Kelly who used to sing with Ramblin Roes - before TBS?

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Ron Kelly's email address: RKellyJr5327@suscom.net

[aurora (aurora)]

This thread has some posts that would be of interest to folks in South Berwick TBS who might be wondering if that church's "M.O." is like GGBaltimore's.

Well, they are two peas in a pod, that's for sure. Brown tells folks who question : "I'm my own man" implying he is distancing himself from CHS. He, Nancy, Goldworthy, Knight, Farrington-learned all they know from Stevens. Though they may view the fellow as having dementia presently, CHS has always been honored and loved by SBTBS and his teachings conveyed to the congregation diligently.