Oblique Angles

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Here's an interesting article I found. Thought I should start a new thread so I wouldn't interfere with any ongoing conversations.-Karen


A Churchless Faith
Alan Jamieson

What makes people stop attending church and what happens to their faith after they have left?

As I approached the front door of the first of over a hundred church leavers I would interview, I thought I knew what happened to the Christian faith of those who no longer went to church.

I could easily understand why people choose to leave the church, I'd watched others leaving; and had contemplated shifting out myself on more than one occasion. Part of what held me in was the belief that leaving the church was inevitably the first step to a dwindling faith - the ultimate Christian disgrace - 'backsliding'.

Two and a half hours later I left by the same front door somewhat bewildered. The couple I had just met didn't fit my expectations. They had left their eldership role in a growing Pentecostal church nearly five years previously, yet their faith had obviously continued to develop, their understanding of God at work in their lives was undoubtedly continuing, and they were involved in their community as an outworking of their faith.

I was intrigued and somewhat mystified. My plans to conduct a quick study of half a dozen or so church leavers, which would confirm my prejudices, were in disarray. In fact the study grew into a four year project involving 162 interviews with both church leavers and leaders in Evangelical Pentecostal and Charismatic churches ( a group which I refer to as EPC churches).

The people I tracked were predominately in their 30s and 40s. They had made Christian commitments (as well as commitments to their respective churches) as adults (over the age of 18 years) and had been actively involved in their churches for an average of 15.8 years.

To try and sum up the faith journies of 108 people spread from Dunedin to Auckland (with a few Australians thrown in) isn't easy. Each person's journey was in fact quite distinctive with its own twists and turns, but what I did find was that those church leavers I interviewed fell into five clear groups.

Displaced Followers

The first category of leavers are those I titled the "Displaced Followers". I refer to them as followers because the faith they continue in has not substantially changed from the faith package they followed within the EPC church. They are called displaced because events and circumstances have encouraged them to leave the EPC church with which they continue to hold great affinity.

This group of leavers made up 17.5% (n=19)1 of those I interviewed. They left in two major categories either as the 'Hurt' - those who had expectations of particular care or support from the church body in times of need which they found were not met when they needed it; or as the 'Angry' - those who left the church in disagreement with the leadership of their church because of the direction, vision or leadership structure of either their church or EPC churches in general.

Both the Hurt and the Angry can be said to have left because of specific grumbles with the church. These specific grumbles centre around the leadership, direction and operating nature of the church.

The level of critique of the Angry and the Hurt does not extend to questioning the whole basis of evangelical/pentecostal/charismatic faith itself. On the contrary, it is these understandings of what the church should be that such leavers use as the foundation for their claim that their church has failed.

The Displaced Followers' post-church faith can be characterised under four headings.

The Displaced Followers continue in a received faith. They have not disengaged from the faith they received when they entered the church. The faith they received when they made their decision to follow Christ and join the church is the same faith package they follow today as EPC church leavers. Typically such a faith is based on an external authority beyond themselves.

Their faith is dependent - that is, although they no longer attend an EPC church each Sunday they remain dependent on the wider EPC community. A whole variety of such sources of dependency are available to these leavers including major seminars, trans-church based groups (for example Promise Keepers), Christian workshops, books, magazines, television and radio programmes and preachers.

While the Displaced Followers remain dependent on this wider EPC community they also remain dependent on the personal disciplines of the EPC church. These include either continued practice of, or the sense of obligation to quiet times, financial giving (beyond friends and family), service etc.

The post-church faith of the Displaced Followers is an unexamined faith. Their grumbles centre on the church rather than the underlying taken-for-granteds of the EPC faith.

Finally, they exhibit a bold faith. By this I mean they are very clear and definite about their Christian faith and the correctness of their decision to leave the church from a Christian perspective. Of all the groups of leavers it is this group who typically quoted a number of passages from scripture to reinforce their present faith position and the rightness of their decision to leave the church.

Reflective Exiles

The second category of leavers - those I call the "Reflective Exiles" (n=32)- leave their church from a quite different position. Although they too may have problems with the leadership, direction and practice of their church (or EPC churches in general) these issues are not the fundamental reasons for their decision to leave.

For this group of leavers, and those we will consider next, leaving is typically a process which occurs over a long period of time, perhaps 18 months or more. This process of moving away from the church begins gradually with feelings of unease, a sense of irrelevancy between church and what happens in other important areas of their lives, and a reducing sense of fit and belonging to the church community and its 'faith package'.

The gateway through which this group leave the church I have called Meta-grumbles. These are not grumbles about specifics within the church. They are not questioning peripheral aspects of EPC faith, but the deep rooted foundations of the faith itself.

The title 'reflective' is given to this group because of the reflecting and questioning stance towards their faith which now characterises them. I call them exiles because they are, albeit by personal choice, exiled from a community and a way of understanding themselves, life and God which has been very important, even foundational, to them in the past.

The faith of the Reflective Exiles can be characterised as counter-dependent. Where the Displaced Followers remained dependent on the wider EPC community the Reflective Exiles are pushing against anything EPC. When I asked this group of leavers what nurtures their faith now the most common response was "It certainly isn't . . . " followed by some description of aspects of the wider EPC community and the personal faith disciplines of the previous grouping.

Secondly, the Reflective Exiles are engaged in a deconstruction of their previous faith. That is, they are engaged in a process of taking to pieces the faith they had received, accepted and acted within for so many years. To do so is personally a very destabilising process for them, as their faith has been an important part of their world view, the foundation of important life decisions and an integral part of their sense of selfhood. They are involved in an ongoing reflective process which involves a reevaluation of each component of their faith.

Finally, and not surprisingly, their faith is very hesitant. Many spoke of having "put it [their faith] all down for a while and leaving it", because it got too confusing and disillusioning. Because of feelings like this their ownership of their faith is somewhat tentative.

Transitional Explorers

The third group of leavers are those I called "Transitional Explorers". The transitional faith interviewees displayed an emerging sense of ownership of their faith. This is shown in a confidence of faith, a clear decision to move from a deconstruction of the received faith to an appropriation of some elements of the old faith whilst giving energy to building a new self-owned faith.

To varying degrees this faith incorporates elements of the previous church-based faith. However these elements of faith have now been tested and found to be valid and worthy of being retained to the level of satisfaction necessary for the individual involved.

To use an analogy from the courtroom, the internal jury has reached a verdict on these faith elements and now sees them as being plausible, 'beyond reasonable doubt'. What constitutes reasonable doubt varies from person to person.

As mentioned earlier, for some the examination process involves rigorous theological and philosophical debate through reading and/or interaction with others. For others, reasonable doubt is based more on personal experience and what is plausible to them at an intuitive gut-level or through a deeper trust of their own feelings.

The transitional faith stance indicates that the internal jury has begun to read its verdict on at least some of the elements of faith and is reporting a verdict of positive personal appropriation ("this is something I can hold to"). The Transitional Explorers represented 18% of those interviewed (n=19).

Alongside these Transitional Explorers were a small group of those who were transitioning to alternative faith stances. This grouping was made up of two people who had moved to a more new age based faith and five who had so many questions, doubts and issues with the Christian faith that they were best characterised as agnostic in their belief system.

Integrated Way-finders

The final category of leavers were called the "Integrated Way-finders". Where the Transitional Explorers are in the process of reconstructing their faith and developing an emerging self-ownership, the integrated faith people have to all intents and purposes completed this faith reconstruction work. While there is a sense in which the 'integrated faith' is also still open and being constantly redefined and adapted, the major faith examination is now complete.

The process could be likened to the building of a house out of timber from a previous home. The first part of the process involves moving out of the old home and carefully tearing it down. In the demolition phase the timber, window and door frames, roofing materials and fittings are assessed as to their usefulness a

s materials for the new house. This process is what I have called the "reflective phase".

The next part of the process involves building the new house out of the materials retrieved from the old one and the incorporation of a number of new materials. This is the "transitional phase", where much of the structural faith building is done.

Finally the house is complete and livable and the person is able to move in. This final phase may include minor ongoing work to the house, rooms may still need to be painted, repairs made and at times modifications of various degrees undertaken. Although this work is ongoing, the basic structure of the home is complete and it now affords a safe place for the individual to live in.

This final phase in the faith journey is what I have called the "integrated faith" phase, because here the structure of the faith is to all intents and purposes complete and the person is able to appropriate it as their own faith system. People at this final phase, like the builder of the home, may well be involved in ongoing questioning and occasional periods of faith reevaluation (on some occasions involving quite substantial reevaluations), but the major structural work is now done.

The term 'integrated' is also descriptive of a second aspect of these people's faith, in that they are seeking to integrate their faith into all aspects of their lives. Of these people, like no other grouping previously discussed, it can be said that there is a more fully rounded faith that seeks to integrate the physical, mental, emotional, sexual, relational and spiritual aspects of their selfhood in a way deeply connected with their faith. Hence people at this faith phase are very aware of the deeper personal issues that lurk within themselves.

The term 'way-finder' may seem at first somewhat curious. Its use is intended to signal that the people in this faith position have found something of a way forward in their faith. In this sense they are way-finders. There were 30 interviewees in this category.



The reasons why these people left the church and the post-church faith they established need to be understood not only as the personal journies of the individuals but also as the story of groups of leavers in a rapidly changing society.

One of the surprising results of the research for me was coming to see that for the majority of leavers (65% of those interviewed) this was not a solo journey but one which involved them in groups of people in similar faith transitions. I found that there are a considerable and growing number of such post-church groups which meet to discuss, question and reformulate and understand their faith.

Some of these groups also meet to pray and worship together in ways that appear to have more immediacy and relevance to their whole lives than what they experienced in their respective EPC churches. Many of the leavers I interviewed and others I met, especially those I categorised as Transitional Explorers and Integrated Way-finders, are part of these new groups which are experimenting with ways of being church - ways that may prove to be more appropriate in our rapidly changing society.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

Karen;
This is a thougt provoking article and one worth sharing in my opinion. I came to realize after attending a non-denominational church after leaving ggwo, that there is such thing as having a living active faith while not attending traditional church on a weekly basis. There are also ways that this faith is expressed within the neighborhood or community where we live.
I know, I can hear the lectures already about Hebrews "forsake not the assembling.."
Yet for the growing number of people being burned by pastors, preists other religious etc. it should be known that this is not anabnormal thing for a believer. Some cases in point;
Where did Elijah "fellowship" for his three years in the desert, or Paul.
What about Abram & Sarai as believers in their later years finally leaving all including their previous form of worship which they found to be hollow?
Some good food for thought here and something to think about when ggwo people or well meaning non ggwo people try to paint you as an apostate for not attending traditional church during this time in your walk with the Lord.

[Roberta (151.203.157.69)]

Karen

I really found this very interesting. As you know I am unable to attend a local church, and even if I were, I am not sure there is one here I would join. It is a touchy subject with many fundamentalists, but I am no longer a funamentalist.

My belief is that if God led me to TBS and also led me out...which I firmly believe...then he Knew exactly what would happen to me there. He knew that I would no longer be comfortable with traditional church settings. He meets me where I am, He knows my inner heart, He is aware of my needs and shows me the way He will fulfill them. I pray, study, meditate and pray some more, fellowshipping when I can and with whom I choose. I no longer care what others think about me or my worship as it is between God and me alone no matter what the others say.

I know I have taken a lot of heat on this board for my convictions, but there they are nevertheless. My life is comprised of all the moments good and bad that have led me to this place. The Bible and the Spirit are my guides, and the question of the inerrancy of scripture does nothing one way or the other to inhance my love of Him. If it is inerrant, ok, if not, that's ok too...because the beauty of it is illuminated by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit teaches me God's heart within the scripture. If God is real and I believe he is...then His word that the Spirit shows me is real also. But I want a living experience of God not a legalistic view. Both have their merit i believe, as some find God revealed in the literal, I can no longer do that because of the lies from the cult. I know that God understands this about me, loves me and provides for my spiritual needs much like a doctor...he feeds me with care, with love and with His healing Balm like the Perfect Healer He is.

Thank you for posting this. And never mind those who will shoot it down. I think perhaps they just don't understand although they think they do.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Thanks, Roberta and 216. And for others, I want you to know that I did not post this article as a justification for not assembling with other believers. The only point I wished to make is that sometimes God is working in the unchurched believer; it's not a given that he or she is being disobedient. Sometimes, the believer needs this time alone with Him to learn how to hear His voice. And even if the person does not attend a traditional church, it doesn't mean he or she is without fellowship or forsaking the great commission.

I desperately want to find a church in which I can be authentic. Several months ago, I tried attending an evangelical church in my area. And though there were many things I liked about it, I knew that I could not be honest in that community. Since then, I have been doing research; there is much I like about the "emergent church," "postmodern church," and "alternative worship" movements in Christianity. What is significant about all of these is their willingness to allow a believer to grow into truth without external pressure to conform. As I've said before, I may well end up accepting all of the Scriptures, but I need space for God to work in me.

More later.
-Karen

[Bob Brinton (70.17.130.104)]

I think I'm somewhere between transitional and integrated. I go to an AG church, but I'm more satisfied in the things going on beyond its walls. I'm wanting a place between churches where people from various churches and from outside the church structures can gather and worship and build one another up and reach the lost. I think we need more than the structural chuches; but I'm not ready to give up on them, because that's what some people need; and I love those people too. But some of the preaching and teaching there is so manipulative; and boring, boring, boring.

Roberta, I respect where you're at; and I don't have a problem with it.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Karen,
We've talked much about this subject for a while now. Just wanted to add my 2 cents.

We've always attended a church....even when we didn't want to. Jack has always thought it was necessary and I'm not adverse to it but truth be told, we get alot more out of our meetings with christian friends in the area (and out) We are able to get in depth with the word or prayer. We are more apt to disclose persoanl stuff with good, true friends tehn with those next to us in a church setting. Also, Jack has had teachers that he prays with....I know, he's not supposed to, but you wouldn't believe the amount of christians showing up in public achools!

We all need to grow and I think what the article shows us is that God certainly meets us in many places.

I love meeting with likeminded people and find the best most meaningful stuff in small groups.

We are just feeling comfortable in our church after 4-5 yrs attending. They are very gracious to us and have never pressured us to do anything. I think we've become real strong critics too! They are still gracious to us! They have always welcomed me and included me and my artwork in the productions even though I'm not a member. That shows me that they aren't focussing on that as much as the individual. In a way, I'm reluctant to delve too deeply into their doctrine for fear I'd find something unbearable! It's always a joyous assembling of believers and non together on a Sunday. We are the fastest growing church in NE. At first I was turned off because it was 'church growth' stuff but I now see that its because its as our pastor says, Jesus is empowering our lives.....

thanks for doing all this research!

The best sunday school I ever attended was at the PCA in Rochester NY (Jacks home church) They taught church history. Even in bible school, it wasn't this good!

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Roberta,

I found your comment, "some find God revealed in the literal, I can no longer do that because of the lies from the cult" very interesting. I am discovering how much fear I have of being dominated by other Christians in a church environment. There is a kind of momentum that is created when one joins a church, a timetable that must be followed. I struggle with the expectations that accompany a church seeking growth. Each person is seen as a commodity to be exploited. What becomes preeminent is the organization; individuals are perceived as resources or liabilities.

I am reminded of a couple of "pinpollos" from Lenox days who agonized over their impending marriage commitments. There was no question they loved their fiancees, but sealing that love in a commitment seemed intolerable to them. I remember being perplexed at their cold feet at the time. Now I realize I am suffering from a similar malaise, but with respect to a church. It's a feeling that as soon as I step toward the church, it will engulf me. I will be no more.

I honestly do not dwell on my negative experiences. I try to see the good God has brought from them. But today I allowed myself to grieve, to feel the pain of violation I suffered at the hands of Christians. It is palpable to me now as I consider joining another church community. I just don't trust Christians. May God have mercy on me.

-Karen

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Allowing yourself to grieve is important. It becomes the release of, what my grandmother would have called, "bad vapors". If we don't allow ourselves our human emotions we can become so locked into the past. And that's never healthy. It took me awhile to gain some equilibrium again, but I no longer regret the past.

Not regretting however doesn't mean lack of scars. I know the release was necessary, and the forgiveness necessary for my own soul, but I have not forgotten the damage that can be caused to others. Part of healing...at least for me...was finding ways to help other people. I have a lot of online/telephone/and other friends and aquaintences that have a loose network as we are all chronically ill and need encouragement and support. Most are Christian, to some varying degree, some are of other faiths and all seek spiritual answers. I had thought it would help to join a support group after the necrotizing fasciitis episode, but all they did was talk about the disease, not how to get on with life, and I couldn't take it.

So...slowly a few of us started praying online, talked on the phone with each other etc and became a small group of bodily ill, spiritually growing group that keeps each other going.

Bonnie is one of the few friends I have had over the years that understands that I can seldom have visitors due to my condition. She's a gift from God for my life. She is never offended if I can't see her, is always caring and understanding, and allows me to help her as much as she helps me. God understands me like she does...with love and without recrimination.

I love the home church movement growing in New England. I know that God blesses it for the fruit is sure and beautiful. I pray everyday that I will miraculously go into remission so I can invite a group here. I am not sure how Scott would feel about it, but I have decided to pray for the remission first and ask those questions later...*LOL*

I love your heart Karen and I understand how you feel. I doubt I will ever be comfortable in another church again...but I am ready for the miracle should it come...*s* ..."Always be ready for the miracle" is the watch word for the little group we have online...we believe they still happen.

Love and Blessings Always
Roberta

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

"Most are Christian, to some varying degree, some are of other faiths and all seek spiritual answers."

Just curious, Roberta, what are the varying degrees of being a Christian?

[Anonymous (152.163.253.102)]

I always thought you either were a Christian or you were not

[Anonymous (4.155.12.202)]

so now RJ sticks her sob story in here...ugh...and karen is so stinking sentimental it gags me to death. i don't think there is one church that is going to satisfy either one of you. seems to me like the two of you are far too opinionated and just downright feeling sorry for yourself. so tbs was a screwup. big deal. move on. you let that a-hole stevens get to you that much that you can't move on??? come on!!!

get with the program. God wants you to be in fellowship with christians. you can't isolate yourself just because of one screwed up church. goodness knows i'm learning that after leaving ggwo, and i was stupid in my tbs days and should have caught on early that i was headed down a road of destruction. get off your self pity kick and find a church. even if its one on tbn on the cable. some are money grubbers too...well i belivee that about all churches anyways. but some have some decent teaching, not all are so bad.

don't trust christians. don't trust anyone. just trust God. move on girls!! life is too short to dedicate this much destruction to carl. we all have been poisoned by his corrupt methods!

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.149)]

It would be possible to go back through Carl Stevens messages and find him preaching against the very things that characterize his 'ministry'. And, in general, this is part of the problem. You have one thing on the surface, but in time you find out it's not what is really there. That's why it's hard to go back to a church. That's why, even though I'm in one, I really prefer the stuff in people's homes that don't have a 'real pastor' involved. I'm sick of manipulation, of money lust and the desire for buildings and numbers. I'm sick of people trying to build highly defined boxes for my thinking that would tend to obstruct my interaction with the Spirit. I'm sick of the Word being distorted and used for ends that may appear to be 'for God' on the surface, but that actually work against Him. I'm sick of the hurting and destitute getting so little attention. And I'm sick of you troll. Hope you find Christ so you can get on with your life. You may be a believer, but you're not walking in the light. You're walking in spiritual airheadedness. A perhaps new term just for you. Congratulations.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.149)]

When I go to church, I don't go to 'be fed'. Usually I could get more out of going to the Word myself. I go for the purpose of assembly with other believers, to worship and to give myself (particularly in prayer). But I'm not seeking to give myself to the organization or the leadership structure. I'm looking to give myself to the Lord and to the people who are there; some more directly than others. There are pressures that pastors are under that are from outside the local assembly they lead. Some of these are from the people over them in the denominational structure or their peers within or outside it. Some are internal pressures to do with self image and their own expectations. These things compromise the way they serve. I maintain that it is the people they serve that are important, and their own obedience to the Lord Himself. A pastor who does not directly obey God cannot lead others into true obedience to Him. He may be able to lead them into an outward form of obedience that is not actually obedience to Him. It's just image, smoke and mirrors. We want spiritual reality. Not artificial ritual. We want the move of God Himself in and between us. That is real hope for the lost.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Bob
QUESTION #1 Do you go to church?
QUESTION #2 DO YOU HAVE A JOB?
QUESTION #3 How's dear little Mary today???

What prompts you to get up at 4:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. to type crap on the computer -- potty runs?

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

ahh, another troll picking on Bob because he has a name. Your church is crumbling troll, you have been duped, living a lie and calling it God. Time to grow up and stop pointing fingers and as Carl used to say "get some GUTZ" and stop looking outward and take a little trip inward and become accountable.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

poor bob!

[Maria T (141.157.120.145)]

Hey Bob,
Its me here. I thought I'd give you some help on the questions "64" asked of you.

For Question #1 in regards to whether you have a church or not...ITS NOT YOUR BUSINESS "64" AND, BESIDES THAT, WHEN 2 OR MORE ARE GATHERED IN HIS NAME, HE IS IN THE MIDST OF THEM. IN THE EARLY CHURCHES THERE WAS NO FORMAL "CHURCH"...THESE PEOPLE MET IN THEIR HOMES AND SHARED THE LIFE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WITH EACH OTHER.

Bob himself has said that he has met with other Christians in this manner. So buzz off, "64."

#2 ITS NOBODY'S BUSINESS WHETHER BOB HAS A JOB
SO GO MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS, "64." NOBODY ASKED YOU IF YOU HAD A JOB, DID THEY? WHAT'S THE POINT???

#3. How's Mary? Ask "Mary" yourself.

Oh, and why is Bob posting between 4 and 5 a.m.??? Like, DUH, he is on his computer BEFORE HE GOES TO WORK!! Which by the way if you adjusted your glasses you would have seen him post on many other threads.

Lay off of him "64" you are cruel and hateful. And, Bob isn't hateful or cruel to anybody on these threads, even if he doesn't agree with them.

So, "64" do YOU have a job? Your post was in the middle of the day. Or were you the one taking a potty break??????????


Maria T

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.149)]

Mary is fine. I attend an Assemblies of God church that I've been in for most of the time since I left GG. I also have contacts with many believers who attend other churches and meet with the various people that are drawn to the Herrings' house, many of whom are former TBS/GGWO. I've been working for the same employer since the fall of 1977, two years before I graduated from Bible school in Lenox, and a few months after I married Mary. I've always tended to get up early in the morning, usually at 2:45 am. My wife used to be accused of being 'a morning person', which she emphatically is not. I am. She generally stays up later than I do, as do both my kids. I don't need much sleep, 5-5 1/2 hours. The morning is usually when I think the clearest.

Thank you, Maria. I know I don't have to answer these questions, but I don't mind doing so.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

I knew I could draw you into the Bubble World again. You just can't keep your comments inside -- Release them -- into the Bubble World. This is your world -- enjoy it!!! meanwhile, I had to drag myself to a computer to even check you all out. --- just as I figured, a complete Bubble mess!!! --- I'm sorry you have to live this way. Bye, bye.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

4.155--

I was a bit taken aback by your ferocious response. I suppose I can agree that my words seem sentimental, but they were an honest expression of what I was thinking and feeling. I am not good at wearing a mask--that's why I don't post anonymously or with a pseudonym.

Anyway, I want you to know that your post was effective in its intent--your words hurt.

-Karen

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Karen

That's all some of these people know: how to effectively hurt people. Guard your heart if you cannot wear the mask. I am also am up front kind of person, but I am weary of bleeding for the hate mongers.

Yours is a beautiful heart.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

I read Ps 138 this morning and from it I prayed that God would extend his hand upon the wrath of his enemies. This is the prayer I offer to the posters on this thread as well as many other threads. Seems to me today, that people are getting uncomfortable under his conviction. Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable to bear and folks will lash out against those that seem to oppose rather than use it to benefit themselves and obey God.

God wants so much to release those held captive by false doctrine and harmful practices. He is doing a mighty work here. Thanks for all you share girls!

[Nancy (172.174.242.53)]

Lee that is so true and such a beautiful psalm and prayer. thank you for sharing it. It is true that God will use Factnet in people's lives, even the cruel and the trolls to penetrate a stoney heart.

All to God's glory as we lift up the nature of Christ people will either stumble from or stumble towards one great big and glorious Christ.

My hope and desire is that somehow God has used me on this board to help. Karen you are a beautiful woman of God and the tongue is set afire from hell so don't let cruel words hurt you. They are not from God. Let them roll off like water off a duck.

God bless you and thank you for sharing.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.149)]

Karen, Your openess and desire to get to the heart of the matter are very welcome here. Sometimes opposition is greatest just before major breakthroughs. Stay focused in what the Spirit gives you. You have a lot to give.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

I found this article to be very compelling.


Why the Evangelical Church Needs the Liberal Church
A Presbyterian split would be a serious setback for Reformed orthodoxy.
by Richard Mouw

The Presbyterian Church (USA)—like many Christian denominations—has been starkly divided over the role of gays and lesbians in the church. It feels to many, as author Richard Mouw puts it, that the church is getting ready for "divorce court." Should the church split or stay together? The authors of these two articles—both Presbyterian, one liberal and one conservative—differ on many things, but they are in accord about whether unity—or schism—is the best way forward.

There is so little room for genuine give-and-take in our Presbyterian discussions these days, while at the same time so much hangs on how our conversations go. The issues that we are discussing are not simply topics about which we happen to disagree. They are matters that are vitally connected to the question of whether we can stay together as a denomination. In that sense, our present Presbyterian debates do not feel like friendly arguments over the breakfast table, or even the more heated kinds of exchanges that might take place in the presence of a marriage counselor. Rather, it often feels like we are already getting ready for the divorce court, under pressure to measure every word that we say with an eye toward the briefs that our lawyers will be presenting as we move toward a final settlement.

I hope with all my heart that we can avoid the divorce court. I want us to stay together. I do not have a clear sense of what it would take to avoid what many of our fellow Presbyterians apparently are convinced is an inevitable separation. I do sense, however, a strong need to keep talking.

The church, some insist, is not some mere voluntary arrangement that we can abandon just because we do not happen to like some of the other people in the group. God calls us to the church, and that means that God requires that we hang in there with each other, even if that goes against our natural inclinations. I agree with that formulation. And I sense that many of my fellow evangelicals in the Presbyterian Church (USA) would also endorse it. The question that many evangelicals are asking these days, though, is whether we are expected by God to hang in there at all costs. I think that this is an important question.

I genuinely believe that a Presbyterian split would be a serious setback for the cause that I care deeply about, namely, the cause of Reformed orthodoxy. I spend a lot of time thinking about how people with my kind of theology have acted in the past, and I am convinced that splits inevitably diminish the influence of the kind of orthodoxy that I cherish, for at least two reasons.

First, the denomination from which the dissidents depart is typically left without strong voices who are defending their understanding of orthodoxy. This is what happened in the early decades of the 20th century when J. Gresham Machen and his colleagues broke away from the northern church. As long as he remained within the northern church, he had a forum for demonstrating to the denomination’s liberals that Calvinist orthodoxy could be articulated with intellectual rigor. When he and his friends departed, this kind of witness departed with them. The evangelicals who stayed on in the northern church generally did so because they were not as polemical as the Machen group; they were not nearly as inclined as the Machenites to engage in sustained theological discussion. This meant that the quality of theological argumentation suffered for several decades—some would even say up to our present time—in mainline Presbyterianism.

THE SECOND WAY in which the cause of Reformed orthodoxy was diminished has to do with what happened to the conservatives themselves after they left the mainline denomination. They quickly began to argue among themselves, and it was not long before new splits occurred in their ranks. The result was that conservative Calvinism itself increasingly became a fractured movement.

I worry much about what would happen to Presbyterian evangelicals ourselves if we were to leave the PC(USA). When we evangelical types don’t have more liberal people to argue with, we tend to start arguing with each other. I would much rather see us continue to focus on the major issues of Reformed thought in an admittedly pluralistic denomination than to deal with the tensions that often arise among ourselves when evangelicals get into the debates that seem inevitably to arise when we have established our own "pure" denominations.

I have learned much in my life from people who my fellow evangelicals are quick to label as liberal Protestants. For example, in the environs in which I was nurtured spiritually and theologically, Harry Emerson Fosdick was considered an arch-villain. As a college student I decided to form my own assessment of Fosdick’s thought, and I read extensively in his writings. There was much in his theology that I found disturbing. But I also was deeply moved by many of his sermons. His articulate address to issues of war and peace, and his profound commitment to the betterment of the human condition, left a strong impression on me. And even though I continued to search for a more traditionally orthodox basis for my political commitments, I drew much inspiration and solace from the witness of Christian people of more liberal theological convictions who modeled for me a courageous commitment to the biblical vision of justice and peace.

I take my common history and shared commitments with such folks very seriously. And it is precisely because of this that I want so much to stay together in our denomination. A friend of mine, also a Presbyterian evangelical with a history similar to my own, put it well to me recently. "It hurts like heck to be labeled a homophobe by the folks we are presently arguing with," he said. "When it was the issues of race and militarism and gender, we were all in it together, and folks like us were out of step with much of the rest of evangelicalism. The homosexuality questions, though, are different ones for us. Here we feel we have no other choice but to draw the line and stay with what we take to be the clear teachings of the Bible. We simply have to live with the accusations of being the mean-spirited ones. I do wish, though, they would give us a little bit of credit for having some integrity on this matter! I would like to get beyond the name-calling and really wrestle together with the underlying theological issues."

I have spoken often to evangelical audiences about sexuality issues. And I have always made it very clear to them that my views on same-sex relations are very traditional. I am convinced that genital intimacy between persons of the same gender is not compatible with God’s creating or redeeming purposes. But that kind of clarification of my understanding of biblical teaching for evangelical groups has usually been a preface to a plea for sexual humility. I have often told the story of hearing a conservative spokesman express his views in this way: "We normal people should tell these homosexuals that what they are doing is simply an abomination in the eyes of God." When I heard that, I tell my audiences, I wanted to get up and cry out, "Normal? You are normal? Let’s all applaud for the one sexually normal person in the room!"

The fact is that none of us—or at least very few of us—can honestly claim to be normal sexual beings in the eyes of God. The truth of the matter is that the labels we typically use in describing sexual orientation are blatant examples of false advertising. My homosexual friends are not very "gay." They have experienced much pain and loss in their lives. And the rest of us are not very "straight." We are crooked people, often bruised and confused in our sexuality.

None of this should be shocking to Calvinists. We are living in the time of our abnormality. We are all sinners who have been deeply wounded by the stain of our depravity, and we are nowhere more vulnerable and given to temptation than in the sexual dimensions of our being. In our sexual lives, as in all other areas, we know that while we may be on a journey toward wholeness, we are a long way from our destination. We are already the redeemed sons and daughters of God, but "it doth not yet appear what we shall be." So in our brokenness we journey on, knowing that "when he shall appear"—and only then—"we will be like him, and we will see him as he is" (1 John 3:2).

This is an important time for each of us to be honest about our sexual condition. We evangelicals have nothing to brag about in this area. It is not enough for us to tell those with whom we disagree strongly about sexual orientation questions how wrong we think they are. Nor is it very helpful for other folks to keep insisting that we can solve most of our theological problems in this area by focusing on a Jesus who cares deeply about a generic, unnuanced "inclusivity." If that is all we have to say to each other, there is no hope for the continuing unity of our denomination.

When I was on the faculty of Calvin College, I helped to arrange a special evening lecture on campus by my friend Virginia Mollenkott, who had recently come out publicly about her lesbian orientation. Many of the things she said to a packed auditorium that evening were off the theological charts for most of us, including myself. But I will never forget how she concluded her talk. This is how I remember her words: "You may disagree with everything I have said thus far, but I hope we can at least agree on this," she said. "Whatever your sexual orientation, there is nothing—absolutely nothing—that you have to do or agree to before coming to the foot of the cross of Jesus. The only thing any of us has to say as we come to Calvary is this: ‘Just as I am without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me, and that thou bidst me come to thee, O Lamb of God, I come.’"

I believe that in that plea she was expressing good Reformed doctrine. We do not have to have either our theology or our ethics well worked out before we can come together to Calvary. All we need to know is that we are lost apart from the sovereign grace that was made available to us though the atoning work of Jesus Christ.

Indeed, our only hope for moving on together as partners in the cause of the gospel is to bow together at the cross of Calvary, acknowledging to each other and to our Lord that we all need to plead for mercy to the One who is, in the Heidelberg Catechism’s wonderful words, our "only comfort in life and in death," and who "at the cost of his own blood... fully paid for all [our] sins" at Calvary. And then, having experienced together the healing mercy that comes from the one who alone is mighty to save, we can journey on as friends—no longer strangers to each other—who are eager to talk to each other, and even to argue passionately with each other about crucial issues of Christology, atonement, and discipleship, as servants who are "wholeheartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him."

I want with all my heart for this to happen to us in the Presbyterian Church—that we take up our arguments about the issues that divide only after we have knelt and laid our individual and collective burdens of sin at the foot of the cross. Needless to say, if it did happen, I would be surprised. But then, the God whom we worship and serve is nothing if not a God of surprises.

Richard J. Mouw is president of Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California. This article is adapted from a presentation at the Covenant Network of Presbyterians national conference held in November in Washington, D.C.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Compelling indeed...thanks for posting this Laren,

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Sorry....*LOL* I mean of course...Karen. The old hands are knotted up big time today, yikes!

[Bob Brinton (141.154.145.252)]

Is this how it goes? 'Well do you want me to give you an answer;
Well I may be a lover, but I ain't no dancer.'

Maybe not. I'm waiting for those coloured threads; Gulliver, I believe. Which end of the egg and all that.

Maybe it was 'Do you or don't you want me to answer?' Somewhere or other on the white album, I think. Number nine, number nine, number nine...Hendrix, Joplin, Morrison...fade to turkeyuoise...

[Bob Brinton (141.154.145.252)]

Oblique is one of my favorite colours.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Huh? Bob?

[Bob Brinton (141.154.145.252)]

Sorry Roberta, I'm waiting for some flaming Jim here. And I'm tired, so I'm a bit silly. I'm not poking fun, just treading message board water.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

I loved it...problem was...I actually understood it...it worried me a bit. We must come from the same hippie background.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.145.252)]

Okay...I'm off to bed now. But I should be here again early. Love to all. G'night.

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

"I'm waiting for some flaming Jim here"

Jim must be taking a vacation, Bob...

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

A vacation from you and your hatefulness RJ

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Hatefulness...hmmmm interesting. Another member of my fan club no doubt. *LOL*

I don't hate anyone, especially Jim. Mere disagreement is no basis to hate, 205.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

With friends like you, RJ, who needs enemies.....your posts to Jim and to others are filled with accusations and "poisonous darts" meant to wound. You call it disagreement but it is really a vicious attack. No wonder many do no post here any longer

[rj (151.203.157.69)]

right...*LOL*

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.87)]

Nic hasn't been around either. I really love the name of this thread. It gives me pleasure every time I see it. I had a cat once that I named Elemenope, to rhyme with Penelope (L-M-N-O-P). Unfortunately she came to be called Mopey (Mopea?).

I have a nephew (Matt) who was diagnosed as bipolar a couple of years back. He's just had another episode. Some believers seem to think that these kinds of illnesses are either imaginary or demonic, even that all illness is demonic. I think demons use this and other mental illnesses, but I believe that some of it is genetic. I also think that all of us have degrees of tendency toward various mental illnesses. My father is an undiagnosed OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder). When Matt was originally thought to have bipolar, I spent several months studying the different illnesses in a NAMI program. A lot of suicides are people who have mental illness, sometimes due to the time it takes for their medication to kick in. And there seems to be an interesting tie between bipolar in particular and creative genius. The way they think is different, and sometimes they come up with incredibly brilliant things. So it's kind of a mixed curse/blessing. Prayer for Matt would be appreciated. Pray in particular that he can end up outside of Greater Grace. His mother Deb is still in. David is my brother. I'll be seeing him this afternoon.

[Anon Brief (64.12.117.20)]

Bob - will be praying for your family, especially Matt.

Interesting book - People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck, MD

[Anonymous (141.157.85.205)]

RJ....you're loved, despite what 152 writes. Some people are idiots. Don't take their words to heart.

A true friend

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

I used to teach Matt in Sunday School...you know I will be praying Bob. He was always one of my favorites.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Aw...141, ya made my day

*great big hugs right back atcha*

[Anon Brief (152.163.101.13)]

RJ, you are the target of so many criticisms so often that I have become capable of dismissing them completely. You're ones of the good guys. Thanks for being who you are.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Maybe she is the target of so many criticisms so often because she so often gives people good reason to criticize.

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

64, you would criticize Roberta if she donated a kidney to your mother. Grow up. We got the point. You don't agree with her.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

I would never have any part of Roberta in my mother, thank you very much

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.87)]

Thanks for your prayers, Anon Brief and Roberta. David said this time wasn't as bad. Apparently they recently tried to lower the dose of his meds. He thinks it may be a blessing that it happened now. Matt seems to understand better that the meds really are necessary. It's really complicated finding what will work for each individual. I've heard nutrition considerations and exercise can help some. It might be that the victim of these kinds of illness is meant by God to find a place to 'intuitively' interact with it. They can become incredibly deceived and destroy relationships and their finances very quickly. It's hard on the whole family.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

That's true Bob that it is so hard on the whole family. It is a blessing that Matt's family cares so much to find him the help he needs.

I will continue to pray for Matt. I have so many sweet memories of him as a little boy. he was so quiet, but there was always so much behind those eyes, and every smile from him seemed like a true gift.

[Anon Brief (152.163.101.13)]

Will continue to pray for him and your family. Glad to hear the episode is not more severe.

BTW - The book that was recommended is not intended to reflect on Matt's situtation. Just an interesting perspective on mental health vs. evil. Should have clarified that. No offense intended.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.87)]

No offense taken. I read a book after he was first diagnosed about the connection between bipolar and creativity, written by someone who was herself bipolar (I think her name is Jamieson). She is actually 'proud' of her bipolarity. It was a fascinating book. You know how they say there's a fine line between genius and insanity? Well, apparently there's good reason for the expression. They have phases of genius, where their minds function much more quickly and at higher levels than is normal; but these can quickly lead to all kinds of serious delusion. People thinking they can solve the world's problems or that they are Napoleon; that sort of thing. Lord Byron is thought to have been one. It's tragic and fascinating, both at the same time. All kinds of emotional problems go with it. The old term is manic-depressive. The drugs, if properly prescribed and taken, help a lot, but remove the high state; and when the victim begins to get off into the manic, they feel like they're receiving incredible blessings that normal people don't get. So the person likely thinks that maybe he'll be able to keep as much of the benefit as possible, and put off the meds. But they can't tell where the line is. And the depression is black, nasty stuff. It can totally imobilize them.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

It makes me wonder, having read your description, Bob is this might have been Carl's problem...

"liquid waves of love* on one end of the spectrum and paranoia to the point of armed guards on the other.

The creativity/genius extreme and the paranoia extreme also describe Hitler to a T.

Thankfully now it is diagnosable and treatable.

[Anonymous (216.183.184.253)]

R.J.
The irony of the extreme personality characteristics of Carl is accurate.
Some will dismiss what you said by saying you are calling Carl a Hitler.
Carl may not be homicidal in that way, but in other ways he is very murderous of peoples reputations and family relationships including some of his own family.
What Carl lacked in oppurtunity is only because he lacked more power and influence. The same kind of power he sought by always looking for "just a few millionaires" to support the ministry.
He coldheartedly carried on an affair while his wife Barabara was dying in 1978. This is one example of his tendency to seperate his actions from his conscience.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.87)]

One of the characteristics of bipolar is bold sexual involvement outside the lines. They also tend to take great financial risks, sometimes making a fortune and losing it within a few days. There's a movie with Richard Gere called Mr. Jones that gives a lot of the flavor of this condition. While what the victims do and how they behave and speak is very hard for everyone else, I'm trying to empathise with the victims. But please don't transpose that to Carl. If that's his problem, it should have been dealt with by now.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Carl has been compared to Jim Jones, the 9-11 terrorists, and now Hitler. There must be some more nice guys we can compare him to! Put your thinking caps on...

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.87)]

Let's compare him to Mother Teresa.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

How about Darth Vader

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

I agree with you 1000% 216.

"But please don't transpose that to Carl. If that's his problem, it should have been dealt with by now."

Bob, if Carl is bipolar do you honestly think he'd EVER let anyone diagnose him as such? You know how he feels about "psychobabble".

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.87)]

Feels about it? He preached it constantly. But you're right, and he could have one of these various conditions.

It really ruffles my feathers that when I started sharing the stuff I learned from the course I took with the guy who is now my wife's pastor (sheesh), he just thought all this stuff was demonic and that while drugs might temporarily help, they weren't the real answer. And I'm sitting there knowing that one of these people's marriage or finances or life could be utterly wrecked in one careless afternoon. People commit suicide because of these things. You know someone (Sean) who did. Prayer and demonic deliverance are only part of the picture. They may be the answer in a given situation; but God uses this other stuff too. He uses doctors. When your car breaks down, you may pray. But if it still doesn't work, you call a mechanic. We want to be spiritual,but not stupid.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.87)]

Maybe Carl could dress up in Vader-like armor; as a security measure.

[Anon Brief (152.163.101.13)]

Absolutely, Bob.

I believe discounting traditional medicine completely is just another type of spiritual superiority. It is less about faith and more about pride.

I am not denying the incredible power of prayer or the omnipotence of God. It is a documented fact that patients who are prayed for experience more positive medical outcomes; however, to minimize the role of traditional medicine is to limit God in how He may respond to our petitions for deliverance.

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Right on AB.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.159.87)]

Anon Brief, I think you've really hit it. It is pride. We tend to want to think that because of Christ, who we are in our flesh and intellect and will is better than those 'in the world'. But it is only Christ and the Spirit and the Word that make any difference. We are not as meek as we should be in the way we see 'the gifts' those in the world have. Musicians and doctors and physicists have gifts from God that enable them to discover what they do. They may not always be right, but it is arrogant to just automatically dismiss them because they haven't gotten it out of the Bible.

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

/

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

The following is excerpted from a sermon I found online. It blessed me.

As Robert Frost said, "Home is the place where, when you have to go there, / they have to take you in." Home is the place where you feel "at home," where you can relax, let your guard down, be yourself. Home is the place where you don't have to play games, pretend you are something you are not. Home is a place where you don't have to compete for your share, but you are included. You share the work, share the joy, share the sorrows, and never feel alone. Like the word "church," we use the word "home" to refer to a building, but it isn't really about buildings at all. Home is about relationships that make you feel glad to be alive, glad to be who you are, and hopeful about who you might become. Consequently, home can be several places. Hopefully, home is your household and your family. If you've ever been to that time where your household was not your home, where you could not feel emotionally or physically safe, you know how intolerable hell is. But we find home other places, too: with a circle of close friends, at a favorite spot where our soul feels just right, and hopefully, here at church. The church ought to feel like home for all its members. Chris Glaser comments:


First and foremost, I felt a sense of being home, a place where "they had to take you in," but also, a place where they want to take you in. In the ideal experience of it, home is a place for healing wounds and celebrating fulfillment. It's an environment which welcomes you to kick off your shoes, sink into an armchair, and put your feet up. You can be yourself. The masks are down, and you become as comfortable and vulnerable as a sleepy puppy. How I wished the church could be such a place for me!
The author of the Apocalypse says, "See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them; they will be his peoples, and God himself will be with them" (Rev. 21:3). Isn't that amazing to contemplate? God feels at home with us. And God wants us to feel at home with God. So as surely as the church is God's house, it should be our house, too, where every soul can feel at home. This also means our homes should be a habitat for God, where God dwells continually with us. What would it mean for you to think of your house as God's house? How would it change your behavior, your daily rituals, the way you feel, if you and your family thought of your house as the place where God lives?

The early church began in homes. Judaism had always been, and still is, a religion based in the household. So many of Judaism's rituals - lighting the Sabbath candles, weddings, child naming and circumcision, and the Passover Seder - were not celebrated in the Temple or synagogue, but in the home, with family and guests gathered around. They did not think of God being contained by the walls of the sanctuary. They did not have to get dressed up and go to some building to see God during visiting hours once a week. God lived with them in their homes, and they gathered with others to worship according to God's command. The first Christians had no buildings, no cathedrals, no fellowship halls. They went to synagogue on the Sabbath, but on the first day of the week they gathered in someone's home to share communion and celebrate the resurrection of the Messiah. As time passed and Christians built sanctuaries and the church became more Gentile than Jewish, some of this emphasis on the home as the center of worship was lost. But I think we need to recover our Jewish roots in this regard.

In Acts today, we see how the church spread and how individual churches were born. The Apostle Paul comes to Philippi on his second missionary journey sponsored by his home church back in Antioch of Syria. This is the first time he has crossed the Bosporous and carried the gospel to Europe. And he wasn't planning to go to Europe at all, but he had a dream of a man from Macedonia begging him to come help. We usually think of Paul as being a kind of traveling evangelist leading brief glorious crusades and moving to the next town the next week - sort of a traveling salesman for Jesus. But look closely at the story in Acts some time. Paul would come to a town and stay a while, build relationships, share the gospel, form community, train people for leadership, plant a church. Only when he got the church going where it could stand on its own, or got chased out of town by people hostile to the faith, did Paul move on to the next town to plant the church there. For Paul, the gospel was not simply about winning individual souls, but about creating spiritual homes that would give birth to new Christians and nurture them for years to come. And to this day, planting churches is still the best proven form of evangelism. It is simply true that more people come to faith in new churches than in churches which have been around for a while. Think about it. You are here today because someone, somewhere, sometime started a church where you heard the gospel.

Usually Paul would go to the local synagogue where he could find people who would understand his preaching about the God of the Hebrew Bible and the Messiah and salvation. But Philippi was a Roman colony, a major city with lots of Gentiles, but no synagogue. He goes down by the river on the Sabbath thinking he might find a minyan, the minimum number of Jewish men required by their law to hold prayer. Instead, he finds a group of women. We aren't told clearly whether these are Jewish women gathered for prayer or if they have just come down to the river to wash clothes according to the custom of the day. But Paul doesn't worry about whether or not it is an official prayer meeting. He finds a group of people who have a spiritual hunger. He shares the story of Jesus with these women, and they respond. He tells them how God has come to us in person, in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, to show us God loves us, and how far that love will go (to a cross!), and how that love cannot be stopped, how nothing (not even a tomb) can separate us from God's love. And these women are glad to hear it.

One of them, Lydia, is a woman of some means. She has come from Thyatira in Asia Minor, where there is a Jewish synagogue. Acts describes her as a "God-fearer," one of those Gentiles who were attracted to the Jewish God and was learning about the faith, but had not yet converted. Now she is living in Philippi, doing well selling the dye made back home in Thyatira. But even though she is a woman of considerable means, something is missing from her life. When Paul preaches, she is so moved, she invites Paul and his companions to come and stay in her home.

This is a remarkable event at several levels. In the first place, the church at Philippi began among a group of women, and from Paul's letter to the Philippians written several years later, we see that women continued to be strong leaders in the church. There he calls two women, Euodia and Syntyche, his "co-laborers" who "have struggled beside me in the work of the gospel" (Phil 4:2,3). In those days, of course, the inclusion of women in roles of religious leadership was rare. For all the talk about Paul being a chauvinist, he was surprisingly inclusive for a man of his day, and practiced what he preached, that "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus" (Gal 3:28).

In the second place, from this small gathering of women down by the riverside there began a strong church which became Paul's favorite. It's that "mustard seed" thing God does all the time in the Bible. No matter how few we are, no matter how meager the resources, no matter how hopeless it may seem, if God gives the dream, the dream can happen. A little bit of faith goes a long way. A dozen disciples spread the gospel around the world. From only a few women gathered by the river on the Sabbath, a church is born. It became a significant spiritual center. In his letter to the Philippians, Paul says they were the only church in Macedonia who supported him in his ministry. He writes:


I thank my God every time I remember you, constantly praying with joy in every one of my prayers for all of you, because of your sharing in the gospel from the first day until now. I am confident of this, that the one who began a good work among you will bring it to completion by the day of Jesus Christ. It is right for me to think this way about all of you, because you hold me in your heart, for all of you share in God's grace with me, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel (Philip. 1:3-7).
In spite of his labor, Paul seems to think that the birth and growth of this good and generous church was actually God's doing, God continually at work in the hearts of these people.

But it is also important to note that Lydia's home became the home base for the church that started in Philippi. Paul and his team lived there, and the church met there during the early days of the church's formation. According to Acts, when Paul was arrested because his healing a woman hurt the pocketbook of those who gained by her sickness, and he was thrown in jail, and an earthquake freed him, he went back to the church at Lydia's house before he left town. This is not unusual, as we know from scripture, other writings, and the archaeological evidence. Almost everywhere, churches began in Christian homes.

Then what does this scripture say to us today? Could it be saying that we too might be the Antioch church sponsoring the planting of new congregations in places where the spiritual hunger is great but people can find no home for their souls? God starts churches, but God uses human instruments: a supporting church, a group of people however small in number to begin with who share a spiritual need, some leader to go to plant the gospel there, a home to host the new beginning. You might think, if there's one thing this area doesn't need, it's another church. But you would be surprised at how many people tell me, "I wish we had a church like UBC where I live. I can't find a church like yours that will accept me for who I am. I can't find a church like yours that has such a rich diversity of members. I can't find a church like yours that combines spiritual focus with mission action. I can't find a church like yours that makes me feel loved by God. And there are new opportunities everywhere around us: new neighborhoods, new communities, new language groups, and several of the fastest growing counties in the United States.

A few years ago we lost our connection with an association of Baptist churches who could not affirm our vision of an inclusive gospel. Maybe God would lead us to create a new association of Baptist churches who share our vision. Maybe one way we could get past the obstacle some people feel about driving downtown to our urban setting would be to start a few churches like ours closer to where they live. Most important of all, these newcomers to our area need the Lord. They need to be connected with God and with a caring community where their souls can find a home. And a new church is a place where they don't have to wait to hear the old stories or break in to established circles of friends. They can write a new story and connect with a spiritual family that is their own. It doesn't take many resources, financial or human. A few people, a few dollars, lots of prayer, partnership with other churches, the leadership of God, and a new church is born. It is simply one of the best ways a church can be the midwife of God's new creation.

Beloved, I've been talking about this here and there for a while, because I believe it is something God wants us to do. And I'm waiting for four or five of you to say, "Pastor, I think you're right. I think God wants us to do this, and I want to help it happen." I believe God will help us do the rest. I thank God often for a Sunday School class at First Baptist Church in 1907 who decided God wanted them to start this church over close to the University campus. Just think of all the people baptized, all the people healed, all the people comforted, all the people touched by God in this place because they were willing to answer God's call. Wouldn't you like to know you were part of something God did which will still be touching lives a century from now?

The other thing this story says to me is that our church ought to be a home for everyone who comes here. What can we do to roll out the welcome mat? What can we do to make this building and this family of faith a place where God dwells continually with us and we feel at ease in God's presence? Is this a place where we can let each other relax, drop the masks, stop playing games, and be authentic in relationship with one another? I don't know about other churches. I believe there are some fine congregations in our city. We're not the only ones doing God's work around here. But it seems to me God is doing something wonderful among us to make UBC a true home for our souls. Do you see that happening already? Aren't you glad to be in the family, to be at home with God?

I love the story about the child who got lost, and the police got involved and tried to help her find her way. But she couldn't remember her address and had no clue about how to give them directions. They were driving her around, and she said, "I go to the First Baptist Church. Take me to my church; I can find my way home from there."

In some ways you could say we're all just passing through this life on our way somewhere else. We're all on a journey on our way home. A lot of people get lost in that journey. I want to say, I think we can say, I hope we will always be able to say "Take me to the University Baptist Church; I can find my home from there." Amen? May we pray?

Thank you, Lord, for the visionary souls who planted this church almost a century ago. Thank you for the people who have told us about you and shared the gospel and shared their lives and loved us and made us feel glad to dwell here. Help us now to see the vision you give us for ministry. Make our homes your home, too. Make our church a habitation where every soul can feel at home with you. And, if it is your will, lead us to give birth to more churches where your children can gather to meet you for years to come, for Jesus' sake. Amen.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

National Center for Family Integrated Churches (http://www.visionforumministries.org/sections/ncfic/)

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Thank you, Karen. You are one of those who is home.

[Anonymous (152.163.101.13)]

home alone

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Beautiful Karen...thank you.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Oblique angles seems more appropriate for this than Rock 'n roll. I'm listening to the second disc from a set of CDs of Miles Davis and John Coltrane. Trane is so questing, discovering new territory as he goes. And Miles is Miles, so aware. This is great stuff; so living, so creatively strong. Check this out, people! In the modern vernacular, it rocks!

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

.

[Douglas (68.192.60.127)]

Karen
I liked your article/study on Oblique Angles.
I copied it and posted it to another thread for Sharon who said that God told her to stay out of church for awhile. I thought it would be edifying to her.

I was attending a meeting of alleged believers in Christ at someone's home. Without the formalities and "walls", of formal so called churches, people started to open up and share their hopes and pains and burdens and struggles. The whole purpose of the gathering together is to deal with those issues and bear one anothers burdens.

This became too intence for the person who hosted the meetings. It wasn't what he had in mind so he made up some excuse to stop having these home meetings. Everyone forsook the purpose of gathering together and went to their perspective churches to hear an uplifting message, throw a little cash in the basket, a little shallow chit chat after and then go home and forget about it.
There was a talk show and this guy who went to prostitutes said; I don't pay a prostitute for sex. I can have any girlfriend I want. I pay her to leave after.

[Douglas (68.192.60.127)]

To RJ (151.203.157.69)
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 10:17 pm
"I'm waiting for some flaming Jim here"
Jim must be taking a vacation, Bob...</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">Anonymous (205.188.117.20)
Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:34 pm
A vacation from you and your hatefulness RJ</FONT>
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">RJ (151.203.157.69)
Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 11:41 pm
Hatefulness...hmmmm interesting. Another member of my fan club no doubt. *LOL*
I don't hate anyone, especially Jim. Mere disagreement is no basis to hate, 205.</FONT>

I would take issue with your denial RJ. I think you do hate.

From the post "Trauma"
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Anonymous (151.203.157.69)
Thursday, September 23, 2004 - 03:57 am
Douglas
You my friend are full of yourself and must have an inferiority complex...*LOL* It doesn't take a professional to see that you are full of it.

Go play somehwere else. None here can take you seriously.I suppose you are not aware that Luke was a physician, Peter was a professional fisherman, wasn't it matthew that had a professional governmental position as a tax collector? hmmmm....funny that.

Jesus healed the people he healed to show God's love and power...he never said "don't see a doctor" He heals the spirit, not the body, although faith can and does augment the healing processes.

Now do stop nattering on about Rosie. She is a wonderful human being...I know her personally, have known her for tears and years...she is not "wordly" by any means. She is a terrific counselor, a Christian, a great mother, friend and therapist. Disagree with her if you must, but quit the targeting...you are beginning to look like a jealous child.

Really....this place is for people who need help and information about something you are in no way involved...shoo...stop bothering the adults...go play somewhere else.

RJ (151.203.157.69)
Friday, September 24, 2004 - 05:22 pm
"Perhaps you should go back to posting on factnet on the other threads you post and let those that want to post about GGWO on this site do so. Your trashy posts are boring (yawn).... "

Sounds like good advice, Douglas...take it.</FONT>

You come off as condescending and deceptive and judging falsely, a temptress and a teaser (and your examples of professionals is lacking).

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Love this:

"If you think you are called to a 'normal' ministry . . . think again" by Grantley Morris

Our Leader's behaviour shocked the religious establishment. Christ partied with people considered by others to be crooks, drunks and sluts. A woman of questionable morals kissed his feet. He did things on the Sabbath he wasn't supposed to. He insulted dignitaries, calling them vipers, blind fools, whitewashed tombs and other endearing names. Those closest to him usually had no idea what he was talking about - he's warning them about the Pharisees and they think he's complaining about leaving the bread behind - but to those outside his inner circle, Christ wasn't nearly so intelligible. He was acknowledged by demons and rejected by theologians. He spoke to a fever, a tree, even a storm. Before long, Jesus' sanity was called into question and at one stage his family came to take charge of him. He was forever messing up funerals, wrecking beggars' only source of income - their infirmities - and outraging religious leaders. He made goo with spit and smeared it on a beggar's eyes. He stuck his fingers in a man's ears, spat, and grabbed the man's tongue. How many churches would tolerate such ludicrous behaviour? He took a short-cut across the lake - without a boat. He sent two thousand swine hurtling to their death. He physically assaulted temple workers. No one - whether friends, family, admirers; devout, legalistic or lax - could agree with him for long.
Are you sure you want to be Christ-like?

Being the embodiment of divine perfection made our Saviour such an oddity that no one knew what to do with him. Yet our fallibility will not pave an easier road. Christ pledged us his Spirit and if we dare follow his orders we can expect to be regularly jarring people's sense of propriety and intelligence, just as he did. That's the way it has always been.

Sunday after Sunday, the works and lives of Scripture's heroes are reverently read in pulpits across the land. But if the Bible's motley crew revisited this planet, would they be honoured in our churches? Even the Pharisees revered dead prophets. It's the live ones that make us squirm. There's Jesus, who drank, and the Nazarites who abstained even from grapes. Solomon wore extravagant finery. Equally holy men wore rags. Paul's dress would get even an apostle black-listed in most churches. (Well, if it wasn't exactly a dress that he wore, what was it? A nightie?) Some lived in palaces and some in caves. Some were free-thinkers in the realm of personal hygiene. Many were in public disgrace, some were even outlaws, yet they refused to conform. Whether they had ice in their veins or permafrost in their brains, you can decide, but they established new frontiers in outlandish behaviour.

If you want to stand out like iridescent acne, have the spirit of an Old Testament prophet. Zany publicity stunts were their specialty. You'd think Ezekiel was vying for the weirdest entry in the Guinness Book of Records, lying on just one side for more than a year, fuelling his fire with dung to cook needlessly-rationed food. (God wanted him to use human faeces, but Ezekiel was too straight for that.) He dug through a wall, built make-believe siegeworks against a brick he called 'Jerusalem', and attacked shavings of his hair. Isaiah sauntered around almost starkers for three years. Hosea got involved with a woman. Pious eyebrows must have shot through the roof. Yet these were not the hare-brained schemes of religious nuts. Men of God were obeying the holy leadings of the Almighty.

See Samson, flat on his face - tripped over his hair again. Nearby is a Nazarite, desperately trying to suppress his laughter (laugh at Samson and you laugh all the way to hospital). Under divine direction, the Nazarite has shaved his entire head. Here we have two men led of the Spirit. One we'd reject because his hair has never seen a razor, the other because his hair has seen a razor. Everyone knows saints must conform to our standards.

I could prattle on forever about the mad-cap antics of clowns like Samson, the long-haired lout who brought the house down - on top of himself; Jacob, who had an angel in a headlock; Daniel, who ended up on the lion's menu, not because he prayed but because he insisted on praying on his knees with the windows wide open. I could lampoon whole armies - like the one that snuck off to battle insisting that the choir go first, or Joshua's troops who waddled around in circles to the (short-lived) amusement of Jericho's inhabitants. (How embarrassing to be in that dizzy army. The locals must have died laughing.) Or I could slip out of the Bible covers and tell of Luther, who threw an ink pot at the devil; of Wesley, who prayed for his horse's leg; of Finney who brought jesting factory girls to their knees by merely looking at them; of the nineteenth century 'funeral' procession where a Bible-thumper burst out of the coffin and launched a verbal assault on startled on-lookers. I'm telling you, you and I are the first sane Christians that have ever lived!

But honestly, has God stopped prompting people to break with convention, or have we stopped heeding his prompting? Has God exhausted his creativity, or are we exhausting his patience?

If we were more open to the Spirit's leading would the church have fewer Sunday School teachers and more clowns, cartoonists and puppeteers; fewer choir members and more yodellers, mime artists and totally new forms of music; fewer preachers and more entertainers, movie producers and computer whizzes?

I am being neither radical nor dogmatic. I'm simply pleading for an army of Christ-centred saints, dedicated to allowing the Spirit of God express himself in the way he chooses, rather than the way our tomato brains think he should move. If your ministry seems bland, that's fine, provided it's a calling, not a cop-out.

Ministers or mimics?
We seem to have thousands too many people queuing for nineteenth-century-style ministries like preaching, while the devil almost monopolises modern methods of communication, and virtually no one seeks the Lord of all knowledge for truly innovative ways of portraying the nature and message of God. I am not taking about gimmicks, but of being channels of God's splendour, free, like the prophets of old, from the straight-jacket of human tradition; willing to carry obedience to the extreme of appearing the greatest oddball since John penned Revelation. (John, by the way, was locked up before he wrote his bizarre book. In our era, he'd be put away after he wrote it. It was non-Christians who had him put away. Today it would be - no, I won't say it.)

If we're less than ten years behind the world we're considered worldly. If we're a century behind, we're 'model Christians'. But if we're bound to the Timeless One, why aren't we ahead of the world?

It's a sign of unintelligence, I was told in a psychology lecture, to always choose the same response to identical situations. Let's not insult the greatest Mind in the universe by implying he reigns from a rut instead of a throne. He doesn't even make two fingerprints the same.

Part of us recoils from a God so superior that his acts take us by surprise. It's unsettling to have a God so vibrant, so bursting with life and creativity and personality that in comparison the most dynamic of us seem listless and boring. We'd much prefer God to be a machine; as coldly predictable as a lump of metal trapped by a simple law of physics. There's something reassuring about an idol. Within us lurks a desire to fashion a god in the image of a cuddly teddy bear that says 'I love you' when we press the right button and never disturbs us by doing or asking the unexpected.

From cover to cover the Bible demonstrates that God's character is wonderfully predictable and his methods wondrously unpredictable. When Jesus healed, for instance, you could never be sure whether he would visit, heal from a distance, or initially ignore the person. You would never know whether he would address demons or the illness, speak of sin or faith, bless, ask questions, spit, lay hands, or tell the person to wash or stretch or pick up a bed or see a priest. Lest we try limiting God to the vast array of Jesus' earthly methods, the rest of Scripture shows the Most High healing by the use of shadows, handkerchiefs, oil, fig paste, a dead prophet's bones, an image of a snake, lying on the afflicted, dipping in the Jordan - and if you want a full list you have still missed the point. For every impossibility the Almighty has unlimited possibilities.

So let's not think that service must conform to our petty notions before it can sparkle with divine greatness. Let's cut the ropes and let God express his boundless creativity through us.

We are so tradition-bound as to confuse ministry with mimicry. Unless we are called to a musty, second-hand vocation we conclude we're not called at all. Don't be a buzzard circling the corpse of a worn-out ministry when you could be an eagle soaring with the Spirit to fresh expressions of the grandeur of God.

I feel like the preacher who after a moving sermon about sin was asked how he knew so much about the subject. Narrow-minded? I blunt my comb whenever I part my hair. Fleas shuffle single file across my cranium.

Every human mind is chained to established practice and custom. All that distinguishes any of us is the length of our leash. The implications haunt me.

Had his devout father succeeded, David Livingstone might never have left his indelible mark on human history. His father, believing books on travel and natural science to be incompatible with Christian service, tried to prevent David from reading almost anything other than theological works. For the rest of his life, this famous missionary was dogged by Christians who wanted to shackle him to a more conventional vocation. He was forced to declare, 'So powerfully convinced am I that it is the will of the Lord ..., [that] I will go no matter who opposes ...'

When William Wilberforce teetered on the edge of conversion he assumed he should abandon politics and become a clergyman. He would have made a great preacher, but his childhood hero and father-figure, John Newton, talked him out of it. And millions have benefited. The abolition of the slave trade was just one of the accomplishments of this devout politician whom John Pollock labelled 'the moral leader of the Western World'.

After Cliff Richard became a Christian, he felt he should quit show business and become a full-time teacher of religious education. Someone had the insight to show him that he could more effectively minister to this needy world as a pop star. Does that curdle your brain? It makes sense to me. In heaven's sight, a truly Spirit-led entertainer could be as much an ordained minister (ie divinely ordained to minister) as any pastor, bishop or missionary bearing impressive church credentials.

Moral dilemma
I'm going too far. I see you warming to this book as it burns in your fire. Nonetheless, I'll step over the edge because I ache for the tiny minority whose sacred mission clashes with our sense of decency.

To underline the reality of this problem, I cite specific examples, though I do not claim to have the mind of God on them. I have enough difficulty discerning my own direction. Instead, employing the wisdom of Gamaliel, I refuse to hurl stones whilst a doubt remains, lest I be found opposing a work of God.

What would you think of a man who felt divinely commissioned to spend countless hours viewing hard porn? Dr James Dobson is such a man, even though he is thoroughly convinced of the evil of pornography. Do you question Florence Nightingale's call to nursing? You might in her day, when nursing was renowned for gross immorality and drunkenness. Simon Peter had to fight his conscience to preach to Cornelius. Fellow Christians were aghast.

'Ill-natured, wicked, mistaken - deserves punishment ...' wrote the West Indian press about James Ramsay, a sensitive Christian who had inflamed public decency to intolerable levels. He was guilty of the 'absurdest prejudice,' roared men in England. Ramsay had published a book suggesting that the slave trade was wrong. Earlier this parson had had the gall to insert into the service a prayer for the conversion of blacks. The church was outraged. Some stalked out. The Churchwarden presented a formal protest against Ramsay's 'neglect of the parish'.

Not everyone assuming the 'higher moral ground' should be trusted.

In a move as bold and glorious as his original creation of the music, Handel took a composition which might have merely given goose bumps to fat Christians and turned it into a channel to flood the lost with the warm love of Christ. Yet even this involved a moral risk.

The first performance of Handel's Messiah secured the release of 142 people from debtor's prison. Subsequent performances authorised by Handel achieved so much in aiding the poor that one biographer wrote, 'Perhaps the works of no other composer have so largely contributed to the relief of human suffering.' What's more, this composition - thought by some to have done more to convince multitudes of the reality of God 'than all the theological books ever written' - was bringing potent Scriptures in a powerful manner to the unchurched. I'd hail this use of his work as a magnificent achievement, but I lack the discernment of Handel's Christian contemporaries. The church castigated him for not restricting performances to the hallowed confines of its buildings. For John Newton - of Amazing Grace fame - Handel's 'secular' use of his Messiah was such a scandal that he is said to have preached 'every Sunday for over a year' against it.

Like the Pharisees of old, we can be horrified at the actions of our spiritual forebears - adamant that we could not possibly be so blinded by religious prejudice as to oppose a work of God - and yet make grave misjudgments of the same magnitude that God-fearing people have been making for millennia.

I make no plea for blind tolerance. That's one of the fad heresies of our age, and even the bigoted Pharisees wrongly tolerated temple money-changers. But whether they erred on the side of acceptance or rejection, the Pharisees' error was always the same: they let the accepted norms of their group ring so loud in their ears that they couldn't hear the heartbeat of God. Like us, they were sure they would never make such a mistake. So though I don't preach mindless acceptance, I urge caution - especially since God's primary concern is to enlighten me concerning his leading for my life, not his personal leading for everyone else.

Cristina, claims a Christian monthly, beams the light of Christ into darkness so oppressive it's shunned by nearly every Christian. She's a regular act at a strip club. No, she doesn't remove her clothes - she repeats her act before children at circuses. As Australia's leading contortionist, she takes her audience's breath by twisting her body, not her morals. At what she is convinced is God's command, Cristina teeters on the precipice of hell, plucking souls from Satan's fangs.

When I saw the impressive write-up in a leading Christian magazine, I assumed Cristina's daring exploits, spiritual power and soul-winning success had made her a celebrity in Christian circles. After months of feeling an unusual prayer-burden for her, I finally yielded to the urge to contact her. I was shocked when Cristina confided that she felt rejected by 98% of Christians and couldn't find one church where she felt accepted. The godly treat her like a Samaritan, though she alone is neighbour to the man wallowing in the gutter. Strategically placed in Satan's heartland, Cristina loves drug-addicts, prays for strippers, witnesses to transvestites, and gives back-sliding Christians a fright. Yet few uphold her in prayer. God uses preachers, singers, maybe even nurses, but a contortionist? In a strip joint? Next you'll be saying God could heal the sick with a handkerchief, feed a throng from a boy's lunch box, become a Man denounced by religious leaders for his 'low' morals ...

For years Cristina battled with what seemed the call of God burning within and buckets of water thrown by well-meaning Christians. Being endowed with a rare skill nurtured from the age of four was not proof God wanted her to continue. Jesus called fishermen to forsake abilities burnished by years of experience.

The moral tangle is daunting. I couldn't enter Cristina's work place without grieving God. Scripture teaches, however, that a few issues are not settled by an immutable law but by an individual's purity of motives, conscience, and personal leading from the Most High. This applies only to breaking rules of human origin - though, like pharisaical laws, such rules could be designed by well-meaning Christians to put a protective hedge around God's law. The fearfully holy Lord would never break his written word or smudge his awesome purity by calling Dobson to lust, Miss Nightingale to drunkenness, or Cristina to immorality, though flocks of halo-studded angels in psychedelic jumpsuits herald the call. Neither would God assign them such precarious tasks unless they were exceptionally resistant to the type of temptation they would face.

We are often so conscious of sin being like leaven that we forget Jesus' teaching that the kingdom of God is also like leaven, which starts as a speck and transforms everything it touches. A potent Christian on a mission from God is a far greater threat to the Enemy than the Enemy is a threat to the Spirit-led Christian. It is quite another matter, however, when a Christian wanders aimlessly or sinfully onto enemy turf.

So, though it will always be rare and subject to stringent conditions, God's leading could challenge a man-made moral code, even one that has protected millions of Christians. I have faced a moral dilemma in even raising the matter. Someone might twist it to their own destruction to excuse sin, yet if I stay silent others might quash God's leading by considering themselves holier than God.

We must bow before the Holy One whose ways are not our ways. All our joy is to be found in the perfection of his will, no matter how it clashes with human tradition.


God-given diversity
We all know that humanity's first ministry was nude gardening. It worked. It had God's blessing. Yet - I hope - we feel no compulsion to emulate their approach to ministry. Nor do I see many people trying to organise their own crucifixion to replicate the most powerful ministry earth has seen. So why try to steal anyone's ministry style? We would end up looking as ridiculous as skinny David clunking an erratic course in Saul's ponderous armour.

You're a unique work of God. Only a fool would vandalise Leonardo da Vinci's priceless works by trying to turn them all into Mona Lisas.

God is most elevated, not by a hundred imitations of Billy Graham (or Cliff Richard), but by a hundred commonfolk each being true to their unique calling. The result will much more accurately reflect the multi-faceted character of God. Our great God is a humorist as well as a judge; a musician as well as an orator; a servant and a king. Just look at creation: God is an artist, an engineer, an inventor, a gardener. He's a bio-chemist, a mid-wife, a philosopher, a labourer, an architect - does the list ever end?

In the vastness of God's nature there must be a tiny element that you can portray better than anyone else ever has - if you accept the challenge of a truly Spirit-led ministry, instead of a pale imitation of someone else.

Just as the life-styles of Jesus and John the Baptist differed enormously, there should be a rich diversity within the body of Christ. Unfortunately, a warped view of holiness and/or submission often leads to drab conformity. In reality, this is carnality - the inability to love or appreciate anyone different from ourselves. Deodorised saints are the order of the day. Real saints get up hypocrites' noses.

To reach the many different people groups he encountered, Paul became 'all things to all men'. If Paul as an individual could contemplate this, imagine the breadth that should be evident within the body as a whole. This is possible only if we allow the Spirit to nurture our individuality. Christians wishing they had the abilities of others are nightingales coveting a peacock's beauty or soaring eagles envying the powerful legs of an ostrich. Yet most of us feel this way at times. It's a pity our brain-waives have such an unconventional spelling.

Don't despise the unique blend of abilities bestowed on you by the keenest Mind in the universe. Stop envying the ministry of others and start clarifying your own call. If, to your thinking, that call seems insignificant, the thing to be ashamed of is not your calling but your thinking!

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Personally, I found the above post from Karen much more interesting than Barrabas. Under God's leading, you can make a great you; but you'll make a lousy someone else.

[rj (151.203.157.69)]

Douglass, like most people here I just couldn't care less what you think. If you can't handle dealing with a professional like muskeyrose, so be it. You think you are better than the professionals, well, ok. Just leave people alone about it....shesh.

[Douglas (141.153.133.54)]

shesh yourself

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Hi Douglas! Missed you the last few days

[John Krainis (207.5.226.251)]

Karen, you find the most interesting resources. This is also from Grantley Morris:


Scripture: our launching pad

The most helpful book I have seen for Christian singles is by Michael Cavanaugh. He is not only married, he married early. I seethed as I read it. I have suffered immensely as an unmarried without discovering the truths he knows. Here is a married person with a ministry to thousands of singles and I can't even help myself. Why? I have equal access to truth's source - God and his Word. Cavanaugh has made better use of this privilege than me. He's the one with the ministry.

Anyone steeped in Scripture, thoroughly taught of God through his Word, is an expert on the spiritual side of any topic. Could it be otherwise, given the finality of Scripture in spiritual matters? Truth will evade us, however, until Bible study moves beyond brain stimulation to a dynamic interaction with the living God.

I recently learnt you should never write on an empty stomach. Surveys confirm that manuscripts are more likely to be published if written on paper. It has taken me years to pick up tips like that. Had I devoted more of my earlier life to developing writing skills, you might be reading a better book. I did not realise writing would assume such importance in my life. When it comes to Bible study, however, I have no excuse. I don't need the vaguest clue about the future to know my need for thorough Bible knowledge. It's the basis of all service.

Can you imagine:

* a weaponless warrior? (Ephesians 6:17)

* a sower without seed? (Luke 8:11)

* a Moses without the commandments?

* a Job not treasuring God's words above his 'necessary food'? (Job 23:12)

* a Psalmist not devoted to God's Law? (Eg, Psalm 1; 19; 119)

* a Jeremiah who couldn't say, 'Thy words were found, and I did eat them'? (Jeremiah 15:16)

* a Jesus inept at wielding those authoritative words, 'It is written,' to defeat Satan, shame his opponents and comfort the hurting? (Eg, Matthew 4:3-11; 11:10; 26:24,31; Luke 19:46; 24:32, 44-46)

* a Peter not spieling such phrases as, 'This is what was spoken by the prophet ...'? (Acts 2:16, 1:20)

* a Paul more familiar with the gladiatorial results than Scripture? (Eg, Acts 17:2)

* a Book of Revelation without Old Testament allusions in nearly seventy percent of its verses?

You're either grounded in the Word or grounded. And don't think a spectacular spiritual experience makes you an exception.

The Spirit, Jesus told his disciples, will bring to their minds all that he had taught them. (John 14:26 b) Note the order: first teaching is embedded in the mind, then the Spirit activates it. That's the norm. A self-induced ignorance is unlikely to inspire God to miraculously compensate for our laziness.

Saul of Tarsus was no sooner converted than he was preaching with amazing power, proving to Jews that Jesus is the Messiah. (Acts 9:20-22; 13:16-41) How? By the Spirit drawing upon Saul's lifetime of intense Bible study.

Peter's Pentecostal sermon was more than the flash of an explosive spiritual experience; it was the climax of Bible studies that began as a child and culminated with years of teaching and interaction with Jesus. (Luke 24:27,44-47; Acts 4:13) His whole sermon was Old Testament quotes and allusions, laced with a brief reference to his experience of Jesus' ministry. Check it out. (Eg, compare Acts 2:14-36 with Psalm 16:8-11; 110:1; 132:11; Isaiah 57:19; Joel 2:28-32)

Our Lord will not perpetually pump life into the shrivelled ministry of anyone unwilling to embrace the pain and joy of serious Bible study.

Perhaps the most valuable time of John Bunyan's life was his lengthy imprisonment when he was locked up with the Word of God. All sorts of wondrous truths opened to him, girding his future service with divine power. Would God have to resort to such drastic methods before we will give adequate attention to his Word?

Many people have needlessly perished in Australian deserts beside disabled vehicles. Though modern technology has changed things, what magnified the tragedy of past incidents is that people died because they forgot that the drinkable water they critically needed was in the engine radiator. A tragedy of potentially equal proportions is people who carry Bibles around and fail to imbibe its life-giving sustenance or, more likely, fail to appropriate its truths into their everyday living.

God commanded Joshua to meditate upon Scripture 'day and night.' (Joshua 1:8) But this was not an end in itself. The goal was to 'observe to do according to all that is written.' Whoever does this, God promises, will be 'prosperous' and 'have good success.'

Likewise, the psalmist 'hid' Scripture in his heart, not because of some holy ritual, but so that he 'might not sin.' (Psalm 119:11)

In Jesus' parable of the wise and foolish builders, both classes of people represented were familiar with the Word of God. The foolish ones, however, did not put it into practice. (Matthew 7:24- 27)

In a daring experiment Dr Masanore Kurantsune and his wife - while she was nursing her infant - limited themselves to the same impoverished diet that caused horrific malnutrition in Japanese concentration camps during World War II. After 233 days on this apparent death-diet the couple and their baby showed no ill effects. Their secret? Instead of cooking goodness out of their food, they ate it raw.

Doubt, liberal theology, or not seeking the Spirit's interpretation of the Bible can leach the goodness out of life-giving Scriptures, leaving even avid Bible readers malnourished.

We all talk about it, but I wonder if any of us fully recognise the power in those pages. Great wisdom is the inheritance of those who devour its words. (Psalm 19:7; 119:98-100; Proverbs 1:1-5) Every time we open the Bible, we are investing in a future ministry. Every word adds power to that ministry. There is no substitute.

Plunge deep enough into the Word, and you will emerge with a ministry. (John 15:7-8)

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

John,

I love this piece. Over and over I am hearing from God that it is the Word AND the Spirit. Both are equally important. I am realizing that too many encounters with "Spirit-less" ministers of the Word have left deep wounds and a fear of being forced to submit to the law.

Yes, the Lord is always bringing to mind passages from the Scriptures. And with them come the life of His Holy Spirit--illumination, grace and the power to obey.

-Karen

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

We study the Word, gaze at it, memorize it, meditate on it, ponder what it might mean. The Spirit understands it and uses it to lead us into truth and the proper applications of it for our way. The problem comes when we substitute our intellect and knowledge for the Spirit's understanding. The idea is for you to allow the Spirit to think with your mind. He inhabits your understanding with His. He shows you what you mean for your life, how to die to yourself, all sorts of things. He brings you into the Promised Land which is intended for you.

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

.

[Anonymous (207.156.7.90)]

BOOK OF THE WEEK
http://www.cmd.org.nz/bookoftheweek
A Generous Orthodoxy:
Why I Am a Missional, Evangelical,
Post/Protestant, Liberal/Conservative,
Mystical/Poetic, Biblical,
Charismatic/Contemplative,
Fundamentalist/Calvinist, Anabaptist/Anglican
Methodist, Catholic, Green, Incarnational
Depressed-yet-hopeful, emergent
Unfinished Christian
By Brian McLaren
Zondervan, September 2004, 297 pages
Brian D. McLaren is a sought-after speaker and highly respected
author who focuses on the church and the postmodern cultural shift
surrounding it. He’s founding pastor of Cedar Ridge Community
Church, an innovative nondenominational church in the Baltimore-
Washington region. He's author of The Church on the Other Side:
Doing Ministry in the Postmodern Matrix, Finding Faith, A New Kind
of Christian, and More Ready Than You Realize. In A Generous
Orthodoxy, McLaren argues that all of the theological hair splitting
misses the core message of Jesus. He spends some time talking about
the elements of each of the "categories" and "denominations" that he
would include in his more inclusive orthodoxy. He effectively stirs the
theological pots a bit, pulling lots of good chunks to the surface to
chew on. This book is available from Amazon Books at a 30%
discount. Link directly from the website above and help earn
commission for CMD. Your support is greatly appreciated.

[Anonymous (201.135.206.207)]

Philp Yancey has a great book on "How My Faith Survived the Church"...it's called "Soul Survivors..Excellent read.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Both books sound promising. I'll check them out.

Thanks.
-Karen

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

I found Brian McLaren's Web site. Following is an excerpt from a reader's e-mail that I really like.

John 3:31-32:
"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. He testifies to what he has seen and heard… (“The Message” translates this passage as: “The earthbound is earthbound and speaks earth language; the heavenborn is in a league of his own. He sets out the evidence of what he saw and heard in heaven...”)

"The primary reason I ever attend a church service (or, frankly, even have serious or long conversations with Christians) is the hope that I will hear something proclaimed out of heaven, something that carries the majesty, the revelation, the heart and breath of God. I want my heart to burn with a word from Heaven. I want to hear something which rumbles through the corridors of His chamber and then creates a sonic boom when it enters my “earth space.” I am not interested in a 3-point guide for living or recycled Oprah or political perspectives or even a Bible study or exploring “styles of worship.” And, I’m not looking for more apologetics and theology. I want the sound of Heaven to invade my heart, scare the hell out of me, and split me wide open."

God keeps drawing me to the gospel of John. I find endless treasures there.

-Karen

[RJ (151.203.157.69)]

Excellent Karen...love the words in the email...I know how the writer feels.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.128.228)]

Karen, I love John's gospel. It's always seemed to strike a deep chord in me.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

"Doubt: The Tides of Faith" Written for Christian Single Magazine by Brian McLaren

(BTW--McLaren has a church--Cedar Ridge Community Church--in the Baltimore-Washington area, as he states below in this article.)

Doubt. It’s like a spiritual drought, a starless night of the soul, a low tide when faith seems to have retreated forever. Nearly all of us experience these dry, dark, difficult times when God doesn’t seem real and it’s hard to keep going, much less growing. Sometimes these low tides of faith are connected with events … the death of a loved one, a broken relationship, the loss of a job, a prolonged illness, questions raised by a book or professor. But sometimes they seem to come out of nowhere; it’s sunny and bright outside, but inside you feel dark , cloudy, gray, empty.

As a pastor, I have to deal with matters of faith and doubt on a daily basis. But it’s not just other people’s faith struggles I have to face; I experience my own high and low tides of faith even in the midst of an active ministry. Through it all I have learned that doubt can be a doorway to spiritual growth.

Before becoming pastor of Cedar Ridge Community Church here in the Baltimore-Washington area, I was a college teacher in a secular university. I was struck there by how superficial many of our Christian answers are in light of the profound questions being asked. Ever since, I have wanted to help Christians have a deeper, more thoughtful faith, and I have wanted to help spiritual seekers get good answers to their probing questions to help them come to a faith that is honest, vibrant, and growing.

The church I serve is composed of about 55% people who are new to a committed Christian faith. One of the great things about these people is that they haven’t learned how to be dishonest yet, spiritually speaking. For example, I remember how one woman, a growing Christian for several years now, came up to me after church one Sunday and said, “Brian, please pray for me. I’m going through one of those stages again when I don’t believe that God exists.” Really, although that kind of honesty is rare, those kinds of doubts aren’t rare at all. I’ll bet some of you are nodding your heads right now, saying, “Yes. I’ve been there” – or “I’m there right now.”

When committed Christians come to me to talk about their doubts, one of the first things I say to them is this: doubt is not always bad. Sometimes doubt is absolutely essential. I think of doubt as analogous to pain. Pain tells us that something nearby or within us is dangerous to our physical body. It is a call for attention and action. Similarly, I think doubt tells us that something in us … a concept, an idea, a framework of thinking … deserves further attention because it may be harmful, or false, or imbalanced.

Maybe you think I’m suggesting that doubt can actually be virtuous. I suppose I am – but not always. There is a dark kind of doubt, an exaggerated and self-destructive kind of doubt, that leads to despair, depression, and spiritual self-sabotage. I think of it like this: an imagination is good, but imagination out of control is called psychosis. Fear is healthy, but fear out of control is called paranoia. Sensitivity is a wonderful gift, and anger is a necessary emotion, but sensitivity or anger out of control can lead to depression. Doubt is the same way. Out of control, it becomes unbelief, a hard heart, an arrogant or defeatist cynicism. But in balance, it is our Geiger counter for error. Without it, we’d be gullible, na&iuml;ve, stupid … not great spiritual qualities! It’s a lot like guilt. Francis Schaeffer used to say that guilt was like a watchdog – useful to have around to alert you to danger. But if the watchdog turns and attacks the homeowner, it needs to be restrained and retrained.

So, if you ask, “Is doubt good or bad?” I’d have to answer, “Yes.” It can go either way. Frederick Buechner expresses this ambivalence about doubt beautifully: “Whether your faith is that there is a God or that there is not a God, if you don’t have any doubts you are either kidding yourself or asleep. Doubts are the ants in the pants of faith. They keep it awake and moving” (Wishful Thinking).

I have found this to be true in so many ways in my own life. For example, I am constantly getting emails and letters from people who read my book Finding Faith. Many of them have been hardened agnostics and atheists all their lives, and many others have been Christians who have “lost their faith.” But God has used the book to draw them into a spiritual search. They tell me that I understand and address their questions, or that the responses I give to their questions are so much more helpful than the “easy answers” they’ve heard in the past. In every case, the only reason I’m able to help them is because I’ve had the same questions – doubts, in other words – that they have had, and I have refused to pass on answers that didn’t work for me. As Buechner said, my doubts kept me moving.

I think of it like this: all Christians are committed to lifelong spiritual growth. That means that five years from now, your set of beliefs will hopefully be different from today’s … your beliefs will be more fine-tuned, more tested, more balanced, more examined. What causes you to examine a belief and test it – against the whole background of Scripture (not just a proof-texted verse taken out of context), against the wise thinking of the Christian community at large (both now and through history), and against the realities of your experience? It’s that something inside you isn’t at rest about a belief … something in you doubts that belief. By doubting it, and then examining it, you can either call it a keeper because it passed the test, discard it, or adjust it.

For example, when I was a boy, I was taught a version of the Christian faith that saw science as “the enemy.” To be a good boy in my Sunday school, I had to believe that the earth was very young, that the whole fossil record was a hoax, that biologists and archeologists were in a scientific conspiracy against God, and that sort of thing. I believed that until I was in high school, but then I was overcome by doubts. The scientific evidence against that belief system seemed so strong. This caused me to really begin thinking and reading and questioning. I was given the freedom to do that, and the result has been a vigorous faith that has grown for the last 30 years – firmly rooted in the Bible, but not afraid in any way of the findings of science. I realized that my problem wasn’t with what the Bible says, but with what some Christians said the Bible says. As a result, I feel free to question “dogma” from either the church or science – because I believe that God wants me to seek the truth, and because everybody – preachers and scientists alike – can be wrong. I actually assume that right at this moment I’m wrong in hundreds of my beliefs, and I hope that God will keep leading me to doubt those beliefs so I can embrace better ones.

Some people might disagree. They might ask, “Well, won’t that openness to doubt lead to spiritual instability and insecurity?” I’d respond by asking the opposite question: couldn’t an unwillingness to question lead to a false security that would be even more dangerous? For example, imagine it’s 1860, and you’re a Caucasian Christian in the American south and you are taught in church that dark-skinned people are inferior and therefore should be “our” slaves. The Bible is used to buttress this belief as a moral absolute, and to doubt it is seen as treason against not only the state but also the church. Don’t you think a person would be a better Christian for doubting that belief? Or think of Galileo back in the late Middle Ages. He doubted the church teaching (“proved” absolutely by the Bible) that the sun rotated around the earth. Would he have been a better Christian – not to mention astronomer – if he had refused to doubt?

The science/faith issue is a major stimulus to doubt, but I think you’ll agree, it’s not the biggest doubt-instigator. That distinction would have to go to the problem of suffering and evil. You come into work and check in with CNN online, and you read about another shooting in Columbine, Wedgewood, Atlanta, or Dallas, or you see still photos of the latest earthquake in Turkey or Taiwan, and you can’t help but ask, “How can a good and all-powerful God let these terrible things happen?”

Another major doubt-inspirer is bad behavior among Christians and churches: the shoddy behavior of the religious frequently raises doubts about the legitimacy of the Christian faith. That’s huge, for churched people as well as unchurched. Another is the question of what happens to people who don’t believe. It feels so unjust and uncompassionate when some Christians seem almost glib in their willingness to consign most of the human race to hell. The very fact that caring Christians grow to really love their neighbors makes them doubt this calloused, glib attitude toward their neighbors by preachers like myself. Sensitive Christians feel there must be a better answer.

If you came to me with any one of these tough issues, the very last thing I’d want to do is offer you a short, easy answer. To do justice to your doubts would involve us developing an authentic relationship, engaging in real conversation, and going through a rather lengthy process. In each case, I think I’d begin by affirming the good thing that you are after – truth, authenticity, honesty, compassion, justice. Then, rather than giving answers, I’d help you devise a number of possible answers; I’d help you create options. Then, together, we’d evaluate the options in light of Scripture, experience, things we’ve read or heard from wise people. Instead of coming in as the big teacher with all the answers, I’d try to come alongside you as a companion in the search for those good things – truth, honesty, justice, and all the rest. And this is very important: I’d try to help you keep praying through the process, because ultimately, faith isn’t just about answers or concepts – it’s about admitting that many of life’s greatest truths are going to be mysteries to us, due to the limitations of our tiny intelligence. It’s about reaching out to God to guide us, and asking for God’s help so we can be honest, good-hearted seekers. That’s what child-like faith is, in my opinion. It’s not gullibility or intellectual laziness, but asking questions and having an insatiable curiosity for truth, and reaching out to someone who knows more than we do.

That’s why I am so convinced that doubt can be a doorway to spiritual growth. Unfortunately, like most avenues of growth, it is often painful. Intellectual pain is an underrated cost of following Christ. If I didn’t care about following Christ, I wouldn’t care so much about being honest, seeking truth, facing reality … I would be more tempted to simply go with the flow, take the easy way, maybe anesthetize my intellectual pain instead of persevering through it toward the truth.

If you’re going through that kind of intellectual pain right now, again, I want to encourage you to pray about it … to lay it all before God. You see, the kind of dependence on God that you are exercising now, in the midst of intellectual uncertainty and confusion, may be the purest kind of faith found on planet earth. It involves an act of will and courage which I think must be far more valuable, maybe even heroic, than we normally realize. In addition, I would encourage you to find a circle of friends with whom you can be transparently honest. I remember once during my college years pouring out my doubts to a good friend. I was doubting the Bible, Jesus, the value of the church, my salvation, the whole thing. He listened, and I’ll never forget what he said: “Brian, right now, none of this looks real to you. But sitting across the room from you is a friend whose faith is strong right now, and I can see that God is bigger than your doubts. So if you need to, you can rely on my faith for a while, and I know we’ll get through this together.” His presence and friendship helped me outlast my low tide of faith.

One other thing I want to do for you, if you are going through a low tide of faith. I want to encourage you to step up to a new level of Christian thinking by investigating some new authors and speakers. Obviously, if the thinking you’re already being exposed to were sufficient to address the questions you’re asking, you wouldn’t have a problem. The fact that your faith is struggling means that you need some new teachers. That means at low tide you have to accept the challenge to think more, not less, to think deeper, not shallower. So, it might mean you’re ready to read C. S. Lewis and Peter Kreeft, Phillip Yancey and Romano Guardini, Lesslie Newbigin and Nancey Murphey, St. Augustine and Blaise Pascal, Leo Tolstoy and Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Walker Percy and Thomas Merton. You’ve probably heard the quote that goes something like this: a mind that stretches to take in a new thought never shrinks to its previous dimensions. In times of doubt, there’s no way around it: you’re going to have to do some stretching.

But again, isn’t that the way it ought to be? Shouldn’t a growing Christian have a growing understanding? Isn’t a vibrant, honest, tested faith worth some intellectual pain? In Finding Faith I talk about this in some detail. I describe how faith seems to grow in a kind of iterative, ascending spiral that has four stages. I call the first stage simplicity, where everything is simple and easy, black and white, known or knowable. Then there’s complexity, where you focus on techniques of finding the truth – since the scenario has gotten more complex. Then there’s perplexity, where you become a kind of disillusioned learner, where you doubt all authority figures and absolutes, where everything seems relative and hazy. I used to call the fourth stage maturity, but a friend pointed out it would be better called humility, because in stage four you come to terms with your limitations, and you learn to live with mystery, not as a cop-out, but as an honest realization that only God understands everything. You carry out of stage four a shorter list of tested and cherished beliefs that you base your life on, and a lot of your previous dogmatisms are now held more lightly. In a sense a person keeps finding faith and then becoming frustrated with it and in a sense losing it, and then finding a better version of it, and so on, maybe like a software upgrade….

That’s what has happened for me. At this stage in my life, I have sifted and re-sifted, and some beliefs I’ve had to release, while others have proven themselves as “keepers.” This is where Jesus is so wonderful and helpful to a person whose faith is in low tide, because Jesus looked at the whole religious system of the Pharisees, which was enormously complex and full of inconsistencies, and in essence, he doubted it. He sifted out a lot of clutter, and boiled all the rest down to some beautiful essentials … like loving God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself. I would rather have someone be sure of those few essentials, and live by them, than have them be sure of a million fine points of systematic theology, and not live by Christ’s call to love.

I sometimes think that our churches are like California, built on a San Andreas fault of suppressed doubt. Under a beautiful surface, the pressure of unexpressed, unresolved doubt is building for more and more people, and sooner or later, the whole landscape will crack and crumble. The situation is intensified by this precarious point in history in which we find ourselves, this transition between a waning modern world, and an emerging postmodern world. As I see it, all of us have been discipled in a thoroughly modern version of Christianity, and here we are in the middle of a transition to a postmodern world. As a result, our modern apologetics and systematic theologies seem increasingly outdated for those of us who are more postmodern people. That’s why I believe we are approaching a time of real upheaval, with people raising new postmodern questions that modern Christians haven’t begun to answer yet.

But here’s where faith comes in – a faith that leans on God himself, and not on our own understanding, including our own theological understanding. We have the challenge of believing that good answers are out there, if we only have the courage to press through the intellectual pain of questioning, seeking, learning, and stretching. I believe Jesus when he said he’ll never leave us or forsake us – and that includes even when we question. Or as Paul said, even when we are faithless, God remains faithful. It’s ironic: the more free I am to doubt my specific beliefs, the more free I become to hold on to that personal faith in God. At the point where the tide of faith seems the lowest, if we hang on and don’t give up, we’ll see it come in again.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

bump. here's more good reading material for those of you who haven't seen these things before.