For Boddah

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Boddah,

Your words and your story have effected me profoundly. It brought sleepless nights and my own painful memories I had securely set aside. I believe this is because I knew you and yet didn't know you at all. I didn't know what happened after you left GG.. I am horrified to realize your experience isn't unique unto you. It is the realization of so many women have suffered such systematic abuse by male-dominated cult and are now dealing with the aftereffects of that experience. On the forum we have shared much about spiritual abuse, errant doctrines, lack of accountability issues but the most insidious evil is unseen. It has been perpetrated on women.. young, old, 1st generation, 2nd generation. The system isolated us from one another and cast us aside if we raised our objection. We were damned into conforming. If we rebelled the penalty was death. Death to all we knew, all we loved, all our security taken from us. Once on the outside, we were dead people walking. And it is in this state we must find the will to live again, to get up and start walking. This is a difficult quest as we no longer know who we are or how to define ourselves. And does one begin such a task in the midst of unspeakable grief? Your story Boddah is a testament of strength, in a place of blinding grief, anger and confusion you were able to pick yourself up and walk out of it. It speaks of fortitude and strong will to overcome such odds. My heart is burdened for other women who may not have that fortitude, who have spent years playing the role of the victim. How many have stories similar to ours? But have not gotten beyond grief and paralysis? A cult expert sent me this email awhile back about the spiritually abused:

"Spiritual abuse victims share the same symptoms as victims of incest. The common denominator between the two is that the parent and the spiritual leader are both the most intimate care givers, and the boundaries they cross are the most intimate. Therefore the damage is far greater, it strikes at the very soul of a person. The victims then withdraw from the source of their injury whether it is the opposite sex or the spiritual leader. They fear letting themselves be “touched” again. In the case of spiritual abuse the church represents trauma not refuge. This is why so many abuse victims leave church and don’t come back for years or never.
And those who would presume to advise victims of spiritual abuse MUST know that the victim is telling the truth. This is not something “whiners” can imitate. I have dealt with this subject for a decade and I don’t see “whiners” on Factnet. I do see past injuries being opened up leading to raw emotions experienced all over again.
One of the reasons spiritual abuse reaches deep into a persons soul is that church is a refuge from the world. We expect to be able to let our guard down among our best friends, fellow Christians. We expect our spiritual leaders to wisely lead us. When the shepherds beat God’s sheep (Ezekiel 34), it is so completely unexpected that we don’t know how to process it.
Finally, anyone advising spiritual abuse victims must never say “Get over it” or “Just put it behind you.” This is not simple, it is like losing a limb. You can adjust, compensate, or make do, but you can’t just get over it. Tell a paraplegic to just get over it! It is like a huge part of our soul has been ripped out leaving a vacuum. We will never be the same again. Gone is the innocent trust of spiritual leaders. We doubt first and trust later, maybe."


I believe this injury goes deeper for the women of TBS/GGWO. At least men in the church had a voice but the women at every turn were expected to submerge who they were. And if you were a "child of the ministry" you heard it from EVERYONE you trusted. The pulpit screamed it, the teachers taught it, the youth ministry enforced it and the parents LIVED it, to such degree it brought great dysfunction into even the most loving family units.

I would hope that other women on this forum would share their unseen journey towards health. To me, this is the most important aspect to FACTNet.. reaching out to each other and reaching out to those that struggle in places we have recovered from. In years past, we suffered alone and isolated but we have an opportunity to give strength and support to those that struggle now. In the early days of FACTNet Lee Leonard and Karen Duhamel reached out to their sisters, then Roberta and MuskyRose and many more. To me, this is the real story of FACTNet.. women helping women, to find their voice and unfathomable strength. There is great irony in that thought.. coming out this male dominated church..

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Right, J. Whatever our individual experiences were they are part of our reality -- part of our history and we cannot make it "un-happen" no matter what. So learning to deal, learning how we can put this kind of victimization in its proper place and not allow it to keep us as victims is vital and one person should not try to minimize another's experience. People- or rather let me speak only from a female perspective and say "women" usually need to go through the gamut of emotional reactions to this sort of thing before they can move beyond it. It's important to cry, to get mad, to question, to feel the pain, -- all of those emotions with which the Creator endowed us -- and then hold it up to the Light, see that it doesn't have to keep us in its grip, and move on. The moving on is a process and for some is easy while for others the struggle goes on for a long time.

It usually is not easy and being able to share and even sometimes to vent in what might appear an inappropriate manner can help to give us perspective. My own experience -- and, again, I'm not suggesting it is right for everyone -- is that even though I still believe the same things about CHS and his so-called ministry, when I was able to step aside and decide that I wasn't going to "kick against the pricks" I was able to simply start walking away, putting distance between me and TBS and that helped so much. OBVIOUSLY, since I'm posting here, I still think CHS & crew are -- well, "off" and I don't mind sharing some of my story if it will help others. But, my experience will always be part of my life. I learned lessons that I would not have learned had I stayed in a "safe" typical Church instead. So, on this side of the healing, I can look back with appreciation to God for using this experience to open my mind to His Universe in a way I might not have done otherwise.

HRH

[boddah (boddah)]

jeannie,
thanks for the post. i mean, i really needed it, personally, right now. i'd been toying with the idea of just sort of slipping quietly out of factnet, because it does bring up a lot of distressing feelings that are normally confined to the therapist's office or my lone nighttime vigils, and are now filtering more often into my daily activities. i'm truly not entirely nuts, i just don't feel like glossing over what i'm going through here. i already have to do that with family members so they won't be too worried.
(dammit, i'm crying again.)

i was at dr.'s office (not therapist, medication guy) yesterday, completely convinced that it was in everyone's best interest that i jump in front of a train by the end of the week. (he did not share this conviction, naturally.) he said to remember one thing, and actually it stuck: if you're a mild-mannered, considerate, intelligent person, without actual mental disability, with a life that is not unfixable, then the strong urge to kill yourself is very likely a substitute for some kind of outrage that you don't allow yourself to express.
it's true. i can put outrage in a poem, i can put it in a project or painting, i can discuss it as a hypothetical, everyone's fine. but to openly, concretely express personal outrage makes people uncomfortable. i am not in some kind of textbook cult-survivor world, i'm in this world, the one with nerve endings and chemicals and synapses that literally need healing. and yes, i'm outraged, but since no one else appears able to take it, i tend to take it out on myself. i do this in order to protect those i love, and not incur condemnation from those i don't trust.

like i said, i have to sort of gloss over this stuff in order to function. if i went around talking about it my parents would refuse to leave my house for a second, my friends would think i was just too morbid to be fun (or be afraid i'd so something rash on their watch,) my schoolmates would think i was unsafe to be around. not to mention, for a while i wouldn't be able to finish my schoolwork at all. i can express myself fairly well around dan, but he's a sensitive guy and a lot of yelling around makes him edgy. he feels it too when i'm upset.
my mom does, in fact, tell me to "get over it," or says that enough time has passed that i "should" be over it (whose calculation that is she doesn't say.) she does this because it hurts her to see me sad, but she doesn't know how to say that in so many words. you know, she feels just about the same, i think, but she's got it buried so far down that it just comes out as various bizarre neuroses. my dad just desperately wants me to be ok. he ran from the church too, but although he looks back and gets mad sometimes, he somehow doesn't have this emotional weight that my mom and i have. my parents are both are terrified that i hold them responsible, or that they really are responsible.

(ok, stopped crying.)
you're right about women feeling this more than men. women had no choice but to be deeply emotionally involved, we didn't have the option of treating ministry as a career. we were expected to be in the home foremost, and even in the church we were the bake-sale people, the nursery room people, the nightingale singers and caretakers. for ex-pastors, leaving is a fall from the ladder of success, but at least they were on the ladder. women had to climb a little pink baby ladder, or sneak on to the big boys' ladder and hope they weren't called on the presumption. (i'm not talking about financial success, i just mean success in feeling that your gifts were being used and appreciated.) an ex-pastor can find another church perhaps, or teach in a christian school, but has the safety net of believing that he is still a man of god no matter what those nasty people said. an ex-ggwo woman has more of a sense of wasted time and ability, besides the burden of the men's problems she was expected to carry around while they were doing more important work. she doesn't have as many shining converted faces to remember, she didn't receive nearly as much positive feedback as the "leaders," unless those "leaders" decided on a whim to order a round of applause on her behalf. and that was usually when she was about to snap, anyway. i think that the whole judeo-christian system is inherently sexist, although reform jews allow female rabbis and speak of god as he/she-- not just give lip service to "god has no gender" and then go around saying father and son. the reason you'll get more men on factnet spewing verses instead of really listening to what you're saying is that they have a lot more to lose. we, in a sense, already lost everything once and don't intend to go through it all again.

and herroyalhighness-- inappropriateness! bane to the true lady, the one with jackie-o gloves and oven mitts for every occasion, and infinite capacity to selflessly soothe! she who is madonna, never whore! (unless he needs to vent something extra...but that's not discussed.) i was made to read a book called "fascinating womanhood," and recently picked up "fascinating girlhood" from a thrift pile. these are 1950's manuals on appropriate behavior for females, which instruct on sending all the correct signals to men and, if you play your cards right, getting what you want in the process. i recommend these if you need to laugh, but only if you have a very strong stomach. a little dab'll do ya, then you'll probably want to put it down.

ani di franco sings (taken from song "dilate," from album dilate):
"when i need to wipe my face/i use the back of my hand/and i like to take up space/just because i can/and i use my dress/to wipe up my drink/i care less and less/what people think...so i'll walk the plank/and i'll jump with a smile/if i'm gonna go down/i'm gonna do it with style/and you won't see me surrender/you won't hear me confess/'cuz you've left me with nothing/but i've worked with less...and forgetting defines me/that's what defines me...

p.s. (yeah, so i wrote a book.)

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Bod. You seem to be walking that fine line of expressing yourself (evidently here and in your creative arts) and yet being sensitive to others around you who have a whole world of hurts themselves. I hope you realize that in my earlier post I said "to vent in what might <appear> an inappropriate manner can help to give us perspective." The word "appear" was in there on purpose. Sometimes just screaming or crying or pounding something or letting fly with the absolute most foul language you dream up is an appropriate vent! I'm all for it...whatever it takes to get it OUT! The hurt is real and we certainly have to look into the face of that deamon by whatever means works for us. Can't really walk away (metaphor) until we do that.

You can get beyond this...there is no specific time frame as it's different for each of us...but life can be satisfying, fulfilling, happy, joyous, spiritually significant after GGWO/TBS and there will come a time when days go by without it ever coming to your mind -- I am speaking about my own experience, perhaps others don't find it so...but it IS possible. None of us can escape facing the hurt and sloughing through the muck of emotional stew that comes from what we've been through. The subjugation of women (even though it would be soundly denied) that we experienced, can serve as a contrast to what was intended by the Creator to be our purpose on the planet.

Guess I've rambled a bit here, but I remember the pain and hurt and it is most definitely not crazy to feel it and deal with it -- you really have to in order to get beyond it. Welcome to the world of the rest of us crazy, female, x-culties! (By the way, I don't believe that God is male or female....bet that'll stir up the juices!) Ciao, my unknown friend...keep faith with yourself.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Wow, Bod...so much of what say expresses so perfectly the stuff I still feel after all the years of being out of the church. I don't cry anymore, but that frustration when people say "just get over it" "it has been a long enough time"...I want to scream at them and tell them to shut the f*ck up and leave me alone!

And you're so right...it is a different recovery for women. I am convinced some of out more so-called "pastoral" types on factnet have never ever gotten over the attitudes of the cult although they have become members of other denominations.

As far as I am concerened please go on and vent...what you are feeling is what a lot of us still go through, have gone through or are currently slogging through emotionally. Your posts are so important ...not just for you but for those who read here but seldom if ever post.

Going through it, feeling everything is the healthy thing to be doing, although it generally sucks at the time. You're a seriously terrific human being and I am glad you are posting here and allowing us to care about you.

Hang tough...

[boddah (boddah)]

herroyalhighness- never for a second thought you really thought expression was inappropriate.

rj- thanx.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Boddah,

Write, my dear friend, write. You are having a profound impact on many.. your words gifted and your experience powerful. You are not alone in this experience. It is unknown to others outside, but we women, whether 20 or 40 get it, need it and each other. You are not nuts, we are not crazy. I know of your experience on the edge of reason, it has been mine. I know of bottles of Ativan beckoning me in dark closets. The process of all this is as painful as it is powerful. Boddah, in my life right now I have friends that were your "growing up" friends who have shared similar in private what you have shared here. And I know parents who choose to put their experience in a back compartment as it is too painful to deal with. I admire your courage to be open and vunerable here. You are helping many... you are helping yourself.. and you are making me cry!

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Boddah,

If I may quote you:

... you're right about women feeling this more than men. women had no choice but to be deeply emotionally involved, we didn't have the option of treating ministry as a career. .... for ex-pastors, leaving is a fall from the ladder of success, but at least they were on the ladder

I cannot speak for others, but as a man who *WAS* deeply committed to the pastoral ideal of GGWO, I have to gently disagree your generalization. For many reasons that are presently best left unstated (... I've already stated plenty in previous posts), I was convinced (for nearly a decade) that GGWO/CHS offered both a system of Christian doctrine and an expression of the Christian life that was just about as close to the first century "real McCoy" as has been seen in church history.

FWIW, I could never see the ministry or pastoring as "a ladder", but a "path" or "calling" to get to know Jesus Christ and reveal His life to others. I'm personally saddened that GGWO cannot provide a healthy environment for this.

The more I became free (through physical separation from Baltimore and personal study/seeking God) to see the contrast between what was being served up from GGWO/CHS, the more I became aghast at the manipulation, coverup, lack of true compassion, manifestation of Christ, and Scriptural soundness.

... and yes I completely agree with you that often the consequences of this lack was born on the backs of women (of all ages and backgrounds) suffering under the very circumstances that you, Jeannie, and others have so lucidly pointed out. Believe me, I (and I think there are others - Steve Byrne for example) share much of the outrage and displaced emotions that you all are "bringing to light" so well in your discussions.

The following song by Tears for Fears: "Woman in Chains" seems to pretty much sums this up:

You better love loving and you better behave
You better love loving and you better behave
Woman in Chains
Woman in Chains

Calls her man the Great White Hope
Says she's fine, she'll always cope
Woman in Chains
Woman in Chains

Well I feel lying and waiting is a poor man's deal
And I feel hopelessly weighed down by your eyes of steel
It's a world gone crazy
Keeps Woman in Chains

Trades her soul as skin and bones
Sells the only thing she owns
Woman in Chains
Woman in Chains

Men of Stone Men of Stone

Well I feel deep in your heart there are wounds Time can't heals
And I feel somebody somewhere is trying to breathe
Well you know what I mean
It's a world gone crazy
Keeps Woman in Chains

It's under my skin but out of my hands
I'll tear it apart but I won't understand
I will not accept the Greatness of Man
It's a world gone crazy
Keeps Woman in Chains

So Free Her So Free Her

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Nonotone,

It is funny you should write this... I have been profoundly effected by Boddah's transparent truth. It has opened further discussion with my daughters, who like myself, process "the leaving of GG in a deep emotional way." But as you wisely stated Nonotone, my husband expressed, the same exact response. We discussed this at length tonight.. his was a visceral loss, emotional as ours. He stated he followed a path and not a ladder and we women are not alone in our incestual outrage (spiritually speaking.) How strange Nonotone! We must know each other...am I right?

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Jeannie,

I've felt the warm, strong handshake of your husband Steve, heard the laughter of your youngest daughter, and seen your shining face many many times.

... remember EUROCON 2000?

nonotone@mac.com

[boddah (boddah)]

please, no offense to the good guys.
when i wrote this i was quite upset. i should have been more clear: when i made the comment about pastors/ladders/careers i was thinking specifically of the "very bad people" who are causing all this mess. they gave me a certain overall cynicism toward christianity itself, so it doesn't automatically register with me to distinguish the good pastors (of which there are many) from the bad. it should, since my dad was also a pastor, but it doesn't. it's difficult for me to talk about men's experience with all this, because i never saw my dad outraged. i saw him so crushed when he had to leave what he felt was his calling... i can feel anger on my mom's behalf, because my mom was angry and completely rejected ggwo. but for my dad, who still believes much of what he preached, i just feel the horrible letdown radiating from him. he too was never in the church for any kind of glory, he purposely tried to be invisible and help people that the "leaders" wouldn't want to deal with.
i'm really close to my dad and the part of my brain that's still a little kid has "pastors hurt dad" playing on a loop.
part of me even feels guilty for not sticking by ggwo principles to show solidarity with him. can't help that part.
i think we agree, though, that there was an imbalance of power in ggwo's gender relations... and i personally think that women, in general, get the short end of the emotional stick more often than men do, in general.

sorry i was insensitive.
i love tears for fears.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

"and i personally think that women, in general, get the short end of the emotional stick more often than men do, in general"

No offense taken Boddah. You express yourself in a very holistic way. Please just "let as much out" here as you need to. I'm actually much more of artist with sensitive emotions and less an athlete with "tough skin".

... and I'm sure this contributed to my not being able to relate to some of the culture that surrounds the stereotypical "pastor meets coach" persona - but I generalize http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

This discussion is interesting. I grew up with a mother who was very spiritual; a woman of prayer, who personally led many to Christ and reached out with great commitment to hurting, bruised people no one else would go near. I watched her repeatedly abused spiritually, emotionally, psychologically - by my father and men (particularly leaders) in the Church.

I was advised to go to Bible Speaks by Ed Chute, who was a pastor in the process of leaving. He was quite open in telling me of how the ministry was inappropriately centered around the personality of Carl Stevens. He was right. I did need my time there as part of my own path; and I'm thankful he sent me there. I never wanted to become a pastor. I am not an ambitious person. I wasn't interested in money, and knew nothing about the harem angle.

While I did receive more information from men during my time in TBS/GGWO, what stands out in terms of personal love and acceptance seems more in connection with women; and since I left the ministry, all my major spiritual relationships have been with women. It's much easier for me to trust them; and I seem much more strongly geared to help them. The Lord has given me many opportunities to be supportive to women who have much wider ranging influence with others than I do. Much of this is carried out in the ground of prayer, but the computer has revolutionized my ability to reach out more fully than might otherwise be possible, even to some I don't get to see physically.

I want women to have a strong voice; and not one that is styled and cultivated for them by men. I want them to become all that God intends them to be. Each one is meant to be unique; a flower from God's hand. Each one has different things from the Spirit to bring to the whole; and those things are just as important as those which the men are given.

Ladies; please post whatever things are needful in the process of moving forward into what the Spirit is calling you to. Do not allow yourselves to be intimidated. And being right is not a matter of how well you can explain it in words. If someone outmaneuvers you in words; it doesn't mean you're wrong, or anything less in quality than the person who does it.

[anon_for_ever (anon_for_ever)]

I also talked last night with my husband about Boddah's parable of the real ladders for men and the baby ladders for women. He didn't recognize himself in that picture. He never thought GG as a career but just a church where he can follow Jesus.

He is one of the minor pastors himself, but has a full time professional job in another field outside the church. He says he never wanted any positions in the church, he is not eager to preach or parade. And I can testify that! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

It made me think of a question: who are actually the "bad guys"? Is everybody just a victim or are there some that are rotten by choice? What is the definition? What are their characteristics? Or is it only a myth?

I agree that GG is patriarchal and that women are not usually allowed to more advanced than secretarial/nursery/baking chores. I for example am afraid to utter my opinions in the church because later I would feel sorry and be ashamed.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

When you feel shame or the potential for it depending on your actions or words; consider what the source of that shame would be. Would it be shame before God or before people? There are times when we should be willing to put ourselves in a position of shame before people out of obedience to God. It's one of those cross things. However, a whole different set of considerations comes into play when our actions or words could bring shame upon others associated with us. But it still may not be reason to hesitate, especially if we are being led by God to it.

[anon_for_ever (anon_for_ever)]

Bob, great post! It made me really think. I would be ashamed of my big mouth typically in a situation when somebody has complained something to me, then I adopt their issue and start proclaiming how things and practices should be changed. The original person is quiet and I don't expose them. It can be my own idea, too, but the point is that I can't be really sure, if I'm doing it out of rebellion or not. Maybe it is even a conspiracy http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif because I had talked privately with this other person. I can't spiritualize this, I don't know where God stands in all this. The matters are very down to earth.

So during the years I've learned to keep my mouth shut and not bother. Rather be a spectator and not a doer, since I don't have any mandate anyway. This is probably the result of lacking discussion culture. Women are not taken seriously.

And I'm already too ashamed to put my name here!

[arguendo (arguendo)]

This thread has been very interesting. I hadn't realized until I started reading this that my almost instinctual dislike of women was result of the contact I had with women in TBS, which was a lot when I was young. I always perceived women in TBS to be generally shallow, weak and stupid. I hated the idea that I should not only relate to them, but that I should also emulate them. My rejection of CHS was very much related to my rejection of the role I was expected to play in TBS. When I first discussed FACTNet with my parents, before I had a chance to overthink issues, this was the first reason I had for leaving TBS as an adult.

[boddah (boddah)]

anon:
don't be ashamed to speak! for-- geez, practically ever-- i was really shy to speak in front of a school class, primarily because i blush very easily, but also because i couldn't quite accurately predict when something i said would raise honcho hackles (bear in mind that for me school was just another part of church.)
when i got to college we had to do ice breakers, which involved questions from strangers about where i grew up. i didn't even go into it at all, just said "from ohio, lived in budapest" and sat down. but somehow i still felt earmarked as a freak. oh, what did i say, why did i say that, did i have a weird expression, can they tell i'm not fully disclosing, can i really have overstepped traditional boundaries that fast? even if i said absolutely nothing personal, let alone freakish, i would convince myself that everyone had picked up on some unlikeable vibe. i had no idea what people expected of me, and assumed i was under the same scrutiny for "offness" that i'd been under before. (your fright of being in conspiracy or rebellion rings a bell. i didn't feel guilty of these things, but was 100% sure the honchos thought i was.) my worries eventually turned into mild panic attacks: swimming vision, blood throbbing in head, inability to breathe, feeling faint, shaking.
know what's weird? recently, and only after the panic attack development, i've had people look at me like i had eight heads when i've told them i feel shy. apparently, now i seem confident when i speak. this is an illusion, but hey, i'll take it! so i guess the moral is that you can never know how people perceive you, except inasmuch as you know what general kind of beliefs they hold-- and even then they can surprise you. i know there were a lot of women who envied your "big mouth," and thought you were very brave to use it!
speaking up for needed change is something americans like to see in movies, but seldom actually do. humility is also underrated...you're definitely not short on that.

since we're on a roll,
annie lennox (song "why," i think from album diva?):

"i've told myself too many times/ why don't you ever learn to keep your big mouth shut?/ some things are better left unsaid/ but they still turn me inside out...

these are the books i never read/ these are the words i never said/ this is the path i'll never tread/ these are the dreams i'll dream instead/ this is the joy that's seldom spread/ these are the tears, the tears we shed/ this is the fear, this is the dread/ these are the contents of my head...these are the years that we have spent/ this is what they represent/ this is how i feel/ do you know how i feel?/ because i don't think you know, i don't think you know what i fear."

[boddah (boddah)]

hi arguendo-
glad you figured out we're not all bad (true, no?) some of the tbs ladies to whom you refer were likely acting an exaggerated role because they thought you were an "impressionable young one" who, unless properly impressed, would be in danger of being led away from the flock. when they did that around me, i remember, they were completely transparent. if women were acting like that when you were of marriagable age, believe it or not, they were probably told that it would be attractive to you!
(i know. i neither wanted to be stupid and shallow, or have anything to do with some macho middle man who was really chs's lackey in thin disguise.)

[boddah (boddah)]

hey wait, i assumed you were a guy, arguendo. if not, then i still understand, i'm not a huge fan of most women either. have almost all guy friends.
sorry if that was a faux pas.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Not a guy.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Arguendo, Boddah...

This goes back to my original post. We were DAMNED into conforming. Arguendo, you perceived the women of TBS/GGWO as placid, superficial and weak when in a reality we were submerged in a role, isolated from one another and hemorrhaging from within. The clinical manifestation of hemorrhaging gives the appearance of serene and flaccid.. All the damage is unseen and the prognosis is certain death. But the most remarkable aspect of all this is that we didn't die. We overcame insurmountable odds and each of us in our own unique (and hidden) qualities pursued life. We should celebrate this fact. Yes, the TBS/GG system/experience had the ability to destroy our being but it did not. And Boddah, I vividly remembered you. I "saw" you and sensed all that you have now posted here was submerged and contained. I saw this in your mother too. But reaching out and really connecting was impossible within the constructs of GG. We had to keep ourselves contained to operate in the system. But once outside of it and the walls come down, you basically deconstruct. One is left in a puddle of misconceptions, beliefs, emotional baggage, outrage, grief and mass confusion. It is at this point we realize we are in serious trouble and need to rebuild and become reacquainted with ourselves. Some reject the whole "religious package" and others begin the painful task of sorting out God's voice from man's voice. Boddah your experiences of interacting and overcompensating (and way over thinking..lol.. something I battle with) are painful but not unique unto you. I have spent hours and hours in talks with your old GG friends who have the same story as you. Our experience is unique to most people whose life did not intersect with TBS/GGWO. There is absolutely no way to explain the many-layered complexities of being a "child of the ministry." We reject and have been rejected by our world of GG but we also realize we do not easily slip into the world around us. FACTNet for me has been a bridge and a support and much needed. In the beginning of "life after GG" I dealt with mostly bewilderment and questions and felt very alone. But now we have the ability to connect with other women with shared experience. And also support those that never got beyond the "puddle stage". This is a significant and worthy effort. Probably more than of us here realize.

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

As the distance between me and TBS/GGWO has grown, I've been so happy to have developed a clearer appreciation of the necessity of both genders -- balance -- in the Universal scheme of things. One of the concepts that Speaks/Grace seemed to have correct (at LEAST on the SURFACE though not in practice) is that all gifts, talents, weaknesses, DIFFERENCES are necessary for a complete whole (the true "body" analogy). The female and the male...neither is more worthy than the other or less/more important to the health of the whole. Kudos to Bridget (sp?) the ancient Celtic female warrior!

My husband and I are very close and yet very independent. He is a rock for me...but I must say that I find incredible strength and support from my close women friends -- we help each other get through the heart-wrenching times. I wouldn't want to go through life without them close to me.

HRH

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Boddah, I am grateful for you being here. You have brought a different kind of honestly to this place.

Arguendo, I think I've figured out why I can relate to you so well. My contempt for Stepford-itis goes way back. I've dealt with a lot of issues relative to that contempt over the years. Being introspective and logical helped. Over thinking it was the only way that I could - ultimately - simplify it.

I, too, have very few friends who are women. I am pleased to say that I have a few more since I've been here.

Do not attempt to make me wear pearls while I vacuum. Save yourself the trouble.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

St.Brigid, "Mary of the Irish".. and right up there with St.Patrick in my book!

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"Do not attempt to make me wear pearls while I vacuum. Save yourself the trouble."

Better yet, don't make me vacuum.

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

HA! My husband (a <former> TBS pastor &amp; teacher) does most of vacuuming!!! It's good to be queen! So...good to know that the damage isn't necessarily permanent!

Thanks, J - Brigid -- what a person -- what a woman!!

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Boddah,

Sister-woman, I don't know you, but I love you, just like a lot of people here. Don't go anywhere! We need you!

Love,

Boss Martian

[boddah (boddah)]

had a whole post written way earlier, but was late for lunch date and the cat jumped on the keyboard, so that was that!


there really was a ggwo stepford syndrome that you had to actively avoid in order to maintain any kind of genuine personality. that personality, however, had to be very well hidden except from those you completely trusted... word gets around, and rumors will mysteriously start to prevent a diversity epidemic! it was hard to consider the story behind the women, though, when they were busy trying to convert you-- whether they were doing it from idiocy, as it sometimes seemed, or from despair and fear that no one wanted to acknowledge.
after ggwo i plunged right into an extreme feminist environment, which was real shock therapy. the experience taught me not to despise women (and who brigid was!)-- but still, i related better to the lesbian community, with the open minds and guitars, than to the giggling pink-clad chix. (i realize not everyone had that positive experience with the lgbt crowd. not my point.) lgbt never quite accepted me as their own because i was toting around a boyfriend (now husband.) needless to say the gigglers didn't have too much to say to me. so i ended up, as usual, with a bunch of male friends, only this time with a growing respect for what women *could* be if they so chose.
one day in class we were discussing the right of moms to stay home and bake brownies vs. their "duty" to help women by going out and working. the housewife role was presented as the safe out, the nonthreatening path.
then the true of situation ggwo women began to sink in. the role of "helper" was *not* always safe, was not always chosen. just as not every story of poverty ends in the person "pulling themselves up by their bootstraps," not every story of an unappreciated woman ended in the person discovering her power and walking out of stepford. her family lived in stepford. her faith was intimately connected to stepford. it's easier to believe that you are bad for wanting out of stepford than it is to uproot everything you know!
a lot of what had appeared to be ridiculous contortions on the part of ggwo women made more sense.
"liberal" secular society felt threatened by women, which led to eating disorders and rape and all kinds of horrors. for sure then, the paranoid male ggwo leadership (as differentiated from pastors at large) would be threatened by women... if the pressures on women were even higher inside ggwo than outside, maybe some of the oddities i thought just sprouted out of them were due to their environment. i had much more compassion for my mom after that.
even though i had lived in the same environment, ggwo women were so isolated from one another that i never really thought the others were going through the same torment i was!

i share the "pearls and vaccuuming" sentiment. i think specifically of one young woman i knew-- always in jeans, cowboy boots, and a leather jacket, always smoking [what's a little cancer,] always with an immediately available wisecrack. she was afraid of no one, though she was honest and interested in learning from all. i left bp for school, came back a couple years later, and was so disappointed to find that she had joined the ranks of downcast eyes and long floral dresses. no more wry humor, just sweet smiles completely without content.
her sad situation happened largely because the young woman was taught-- over time, by men and women she had come to trust-- that in order to be part of the gang floating up to heaven on the arms of their angelic spouses she needed to overhaul her bad self. she believed it, and i blamed her for that. however-- it was a huge pressure, huge!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Guys with long hair (of which I now am again) were not exactly considered highly desirable either. In the community of friends my brother and I had in the years prior to Bible School there seemed to be two basic types of guys. Guys with long hair were generally people who used their minds to think and used drugs. Guys with shorter hair generally drank beer and made huge piles of beer cans out in the woods, listened to inferior music, and were more interested in fighting and vandelism than in the finer things in life. These were just generalities, and there were exceptions; but when I went to Lenox, my creativity was most definitely discouraged. Couldn't have people with original ideas around. They might think their way out of the box - and take others with them.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

One of the oddest things about all of this is the legalism and need for conformity that has evolved in GG/TBS. When I was a kid, there were a lot of hippy freaks in SB. I remember there being a real aversion to the belief that one must dress a certain way, think a certain way or act a certain way in order to love Jesus. Legalism was eschewed and love and acceptance were the only way. When did GG/TBS loose its grace? It seems so odd that it's become the very thing that it despised.

Now, I have a light and fluffy theory about GG/TBSW being a cult of personality with CHS at it's center and as he aged and got more conservative the church reflected that change in his perspective. But as I read different experiences here, it seems that the legalism goes back farther than I remember it. I don't remember it being like that when I grew up, but maybe it just wasn't as pervasive in SB after people took off to Lenox, although I cannot think of anyone more straight laced than Pastor and Nancy Brown.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Boddah,

It's not difficult to see why women (... and at least some men http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif ) were not allowed to express or develop their personality, for one of the often repeated doctrines of CHS was (is?) that "Jesus Christ did not have a personality but a DERIVED INDIVIDUALITY". To lend credence to his rhetoric, CHS would say something like "... and this is exactly what the late Bishop Sheen" says (like dispensational/fundamentalists like GGWO/CHS have much doctrinal affinity with a dead Catholic Bishop and the system he represented -)).

Of course CHS would intimate that Jesus's so called derived individuality came from His Father. Anyway, I guess the question for all of us is "from whom" is our "derived individuality" drawn. From being a unique, individual "hand-made" creation of God (Ps 139, John 1:1-4, etc). or from becoming "a member in particular" in GGWO? This was a conflict that I personally struggled with for many years while in GGWO.

I also know that from hearing 100's of messages from the Baltimore pulpit, women (... and men for that matter) were NOT encouraged to have the kind of community and depth of friendships that so many of us here crave. We were warned to guard against "soul-power attachments" and women were informed of the dangers of "spiritual/soulish lesbianism". While I do have many friends still in GGWO and I cherish them, I can certainly see how the "boundaries" (... that "overloaded" word again http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif ) of many friendships in TBS/GGWO are "defined by the pulpit" and regulated by a so-called "precise" set of teachings that encourage a system of denial and control.

[karen (karen)]

I think it’s so interesting that a number of women eschew the company of other women. I don’t think that being in touch with one’s female or “feminine” side is synonymous with the Stepford syndrome. I consider myself both tough-minded and tender-hearted, and these are the qualities I seek in both men and women. I have observed that sometimes when a woman has hostility toward other women, it is because she perceives gentleness and kindness as weakness. I do not share this perception. There are extremes in both genders and I find them to be caricatures of true humanity. I say, dare to be fully human.

[sam_i_am (sam_i_am)]

Sounds like Arguendo has issues, and I'm not talking about National Geographics.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

What kind of issues, Sam?

[karen (karen)]

Ouch! Are you angry because you perceive my comments as a passive-aggressive communication or are they too plainly stated? You are an enigma, Arguendo. I am truly sorry I offend you so, because there is much I respect about you.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I like what Karen said. I think part of the perception of women being manipulative is due to the fact that men tend to not properly respect them. I rarely feel any traces of manipulation from women whom I can respect; and I approach them with the desire to be able to respect them. With men I often feel tendencies toward manipulation. They seem to have a need to line other people up under their thinking or the system of thinking they have taken on from others. They don't tend to like things or people being 'out of place'. Maybe I'm just paranoid and overstating this; but it seems generally actual in my experience.

In regard to the hippies in Berwick and the sudden lack of them in Lenox; perhaps the new locale seemed an appropriate place to drop the seeming acceptance of more radical elements. I don't know. But I remember Stevens speaking in Lenox about there being a right way to sit on stage. I internally vomited over such things.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Actually, I found it offensive as well, although I do not believe you intended it to be so.

I don't recall having stated that being in touch with one's feminine side was synonymous with the Stepford syndrome, but it seems that it may have been interpreted in that manner, so allow me to clarify this for you. My definition of Stepford-itis is expecting ALL women to embrace a pattern of behaviour without regard for their individuality. I think that "femininity" is defined by many in the same manner that "Christianity" has been defined - narrowly.

And Sam...your attempted divisiveness is really ineffective here. Most of us have moved past the need to be exactly like one another in order to work toward a common goal - TRUTH.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Or it's not about men at all, Bob.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

It is if the way women are in a given place or situation is distorted by the expectations men have of them; if they are seeking to please or appease men rather than God. We are not actually isolated from each other. We interact on one level or another constantly. It can be a positive, supportive interaction, or an abusive one-sided one. We seek proper balance. We won't have it without each other.

[karen (karen)]

Anon Brief-

I am sorry if what I said was offensive. Believe me, I had my own struggles in the ministry with the ideal of femininity that was imposed on women. I was often reminded by certain men that I was not submissive enough. And I came to loathe messages about Proverbs 31. Hey, I can't sew. But I am trying to move away from the restrictions of black/white thinking. I refuse to pass judgment on any category of people. Hell, I don't want to acknowledge categories at all.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

5{tely not posting what I'm thinking out of kindness and respect. There are times to be silent; at least temporarily. But I suspect something. Think I'll go back and relisten to the first movement of Beethoven's No. 1 Piano Concerto (actually his second) played by Sviatoslav Richter and Charles Munch with the BSO in 1960. I'll eventually be back here. I like this thread.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Karen, you intended to offend. Don't make it my problem because you succeeded.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

That was supposed to be 'I'm deliberately...'

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Karen, Don't receive this. it's just an attack.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Actually, it's a response to an attack, Bob.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Not so Arguendo. That's not the Karen I know. Why don't you contact her directly and work this out. She'd like that. And I'm not hostile to you, either.

[karen (karen)]

Arguendo,

Perhaps you are convinced you can read my mind, but I assure you that you cannot. And I have no wish to blur the line between your problems and my own. It is clear our value systems are disparate. Can you accept my difference?

[arguendo (arguendo)]

I don't have to read your mind. I know that you are not stupid and I know that you have excellent writing skills. You wrote exactly what you intended to write. You would no doubt write it again. Your problem is that you do not like hurt the feelings of others, not that you think that you hold views that are unfair.

(Message edited by arguendo on November 12, 2004)

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Karen is not an attacker type Arguendo. I re-read all the posts here and see only that she was stating a difference in perspective only. I know Karen from the days in Lenox and remember her then as well as today to be gracious, kind, thoughtful and not aggressive outwardly. I not found her to be so here either.

I tend to be the aggressive type and seldom the peacemaker but I agree with Bob in that perhaps you and Karen can work this misunderstanding out? You both are very articulate and valuable here to those who read and post.

Just a friendly suggestion...

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Bob, I don't need you to teach me how to read or comprehend, nor do I need you to tell me how to feel about this situation.

[karen (karen)]

So show me how my views are unfair. I am listening.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

As for my own experience with the gender thing. I didn't have trouble making friends at all at TBS until the "panty hose and pumps" shift that came along in the last year (87) that I was in school. They tried to makes us all little proper Christian type ladies..."Woman the Completer" was the best selling book (it was required reading for the dorm girls) and if you were NOT part of the P &amp; P faction, it was generally assumed you were uncooperative, rebellious or lesbian...I kid you not.

The lack of educational/pastoral goals for the women were even more obvious that last year. We were taught that without a covering of a husband we were in danger of satanic influences and beconming "strange women". We were taught not to trust other women who were "too friendly", or men who were "too unspiritual". By the time we got all that down, trusting anyone was a trip.

They were hardest on the freshmen girls, and required us that were older to "guide" the younger ones. I refused to do so and was cautioned that I didn't want to be known as uncooperative, and by the way why didn't I ever wear a dress anyway? Got called to the Dean of Women's office to address the dress question.

After telling Linda it was none of her business, I informed her that I was not a lesbian, I simply had numerous scars on both legs from multiple surgeries following a car accident...she actually made me show her.

I lost all trust then. My friends...women...were told not to be "too friendly" with me. I came to distrust the stepford wife mentality they were teaching the women as well as the women themselves. Thankfully I was not the only "uncooperative" type.

I have an equal respect for both men and women who do not hide behind a church, a cult or anything else...I respect and enjoy the friends I have made who are of all types...men, women, Christian, Muslim, black, white, old and young. Most of my friends feel the same.

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on November 12, 2004)

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Karen, thanks. I'm past it.

Arguendo, I don't find you to be hostile toward women. I think you are intolerant of certain behaviours and apply you intolerance equitably to both genders.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

AB, you're very funny. I very much appreciated your post this afternoon and still do, even though I am very much regretting my original post.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Karen, I am not your lap dog and I am not going to jump though hoops for you. I've already stated my position. My question to you is if you don't think you're remarks were unfair, why were you apologizing?

[karen (karen)]

Arguendo,

I don't want you to regret expressing your true thoughts. If that's the effect I have on anyone, my time here is spent. I feel I'm between a rock and an impossible place in trying to communicate with you. If I apologize, you interpret it as condescension or weakness. You're right, I don't like hurting anyone. And yet, I try to be true to my own vision of things. It's a precarious balance.

I'll tell you this, I take no pleasure in manipulating anyone. That's not my thing. And it's amazing to me that you perceive me that way.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

You value too much this making nice. Peace comes at too high a price if you sell out.

Better to be true to yourself and let the rest work itself out. There is certain value in knowing that when you take a stand and others don't like it, the world does not end.

[karen (karen)]

I don't see building bridges to others as selling out. It's not all about power.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Could it be Arguendo that perhaps people are curious as to how and why they offended someone so as to learn? Most of the lessons I have learned have come from people I have inadvertantly offended or made angry...I would have no way of understanding their point in a discussion if I didn't make peace enough to understand what I have said..."I'm sorry, my words were not meant to offend" is simply a common curtesy, is it not? it can relieve the volitile situation enough to get back on track, discover through open communication the offending statement, learn from each other, then continue the discussion with clearer boundaries for both parties.

Sell out? Making peace isn't selling out if it is used to broker understanding between differing parties and allows the continued conversation to be placed on a balanced level.

Your hostility is not understood. Do you not want it to be?

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Which original post did you regret Arguendo? I hope it wasn't the post where you pulled back the emotional cards you hold tightly to your chest..
If that is the post then blame Boddah.. she got to you, and you let your guard down. She has expressed and exposed some of our most darkest moments.. and we totally get her cuz she is one of us. And as much as you don't want to be in this category.. you are one of us. You grew up in TBS and you have wisely dealt with the aftereffects but there lingers "issues" in all of us. But if anything has been made obvious through this time on factnet is the ones that got out are not Stepfordish.. but diverse and individual as any I have seen. Disdain is your shield and biting words your weapon, put them both down and join.

[boddah (boddah)]

wow, you all have been busy...

arg., i remember you said to me on the gay marriage/sexuality thread that the only thing that would annoy you is if i apologized when i did nothing wrong... you are someone to be taken at your word!
karen, i also read your response as a purposeful shot at those of us who were dissing what a lot of people call "feminine." i think you're right in saying stereotypically "feminine" qualities don't equal stepford. but they do represent a real threat to all women when pushed on them by the gigantic social steamroller. (threat to "all women." like anon-b implies, it's not pink or dainty in particular that's evil, it's the threat of being stamped with it against our wills.) we've got to have a name for this stuff if we're going to get far enough away from it to think, and "feminine" is what we've got for now. it's a euphemism that seems to work, like when they say "don't put feminine items down the toilet."
but i think karen's words were delivered in a reasonably graceful tone, we don't all have the same voice. and arg.-- i see a place for apologizing simply for having made someone that you respect uncomfortable. not because you're backing down, but because if they continue to be uncomfortable all useful discourse will stop. (this is assuming it was useful to start with.)

anyway...

yeah, arg., it is a bit mind boggling that ggwo was so vocally against "legalism" and yet the rules were so stringent. i was trying to explain that to someone the other day. my dad (a teacher) has been hopping from one baptist day school to another, and keeps moving on because the uptight school boards object to his singing beatles songs and lighting candles or incense in the classroom, encouraging secular college, that sort of thing. i guess he's been dancing with the official definition of legalism. what we had at ggwo was legalism too, but we practically had to guess day by day what the rules were since chs and co. were making them up as they saw fit. sometimes they'd be all on top of one rule, then shift attention to some other thing we hadn't even been worrying about. such as:

nonotone, the soul power...! my senior year in high school, my best friend from balto. (a girl, no less) came to live w/us for the year. it was so great to have someone there who was on the same page as me, someone to really talk to without covering my butt. around the middle of the school year the admin. came down on us like a ton of bricks about soul relationships, and some nonsense about nonexistent "friendly back rubs." shortly thereafter at one of the team meetings a message tape from balto. was played on the same subject. we were given quite the eyeballing. stood firm, though, and eventually they gave up and went after us for getting a real education...

only other comment is that i think bob's exactly right about balance and the necessity of working together, women and men, trying to fix this place if we're going to live here. (and i, for one, like hippies with long hair very much. the closest i've seen in my generation is the grunge movement, and they've got a much more negative vibe. have to admit i think they're more realistic, but without the hippie believers we'd all be dead as most grunge lv's are.)

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Funny back-rubbing story...

Two weeks ago a dear friend got married (Boddah, your friend also, SK) She married a poet, someone solidly based in the Baltimore/Bohemian artist scene. Held on Halloween..costumes strongly advocated. (I went as a fairy.. very appropriate if you know me) It was a strange mix of short Italian mafia guys..(groom's side), artists, transvestite, ex-GGer's and currently attending GGer's. And yes, I boldly drank red wine and danced along to "Dancing Queen" with my unbashedly gay pals in the presence of "Pastor's secretary".... horrors! But I digress.. The shower the night before held us all in a small living room, again ex-gger's and current gger's in attendance. The bride's mother is my close friend but also someone who's reputation is product of the scorched earth policy of GG as she "left the ministry." She proceeded to sit on the couch with me and give me the best backrub I have had in a long time! Boddah, you reminded me of the whole "never-rub another's back" policy and we were both clueless to how this might have effected the GG women in the room. It is a testament that not only I don't care about the rules, I am forgetting them.. Now that's progress!

[nonotone (nonotone)]

I've been in very many "close huddle" meetings with CHS (complete with requisite entourage) in his office and car over the past few years. For the most part CHS represented himself with a lot of integrity and I never really "felt controlled". However, I now understand that this is actually how the system of manipulation works. Folks are controlled by becoming "conformed" to the religious culture at GGWO. (... as the great poet/songwriter Joni Mitchell would say "...They?ve been broken in churches and schools And molded to middle [poverty for many in GGWO] class circumstance"). Then "the pulpit" (with its frequent tirades and irrational innuendo) can be used "in contrast" to the "edificational grace complex" that Pastor and "his men" use 98% of the time when they are not preaching. It is this continual "push-pull" between being rebuked and having your own vertical subtly called into question from "the pulpit", over and against the "loving edification" of "bonafide pastoral authority" that slowly breaks down one's ability to protect their own emotions and personal spirituality. Fortunately this does not happen at the same "level of intensity" for everyone in cult groups (like GGWO) but the fact is, it does happen (did to me) and this makes GGWO very dangerous.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

So, are you only to get backrubs from your mate? Or maybe they consider it okay to get one from your pastor. Are they against Myotherapy?

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Boddah,

Your words:

yeah, arg., it is a bit mind boggling that ggwo was so vocally against "legalism" and yet the rules were so stringent. i was trying to explain that to someone the other day. my dad (a teacher) has been hopping from one baptist day school to another, and keeps moving on because the uptight school boards object to his singing beatles songs and lighting candles or incense in the classroom, encouraging secular college, that sort of thing. i guess he's been dancing with the official definition of legalism. what we had at ggwo was legalism too, but we practically had to guess day by day what the rules were since chs and co. were making them up as they saw fit. sometimes they'd be all on top of one rule, then shift attention to some other thing we hadn't even been worrying about.

perfectly distill my experience at GGWO with "convictions" vs. "legalism". Because CHS was free (presumably) as "God's man" to make up 100's of definitions in his ABD classes, noon-raps, and messages, the "convictions" could be defined (and refined) "as he saw fit". Believe me, hardly anyone would *publicly* question the veracity of "the pulpit" and if they did, an "assisting pastor" would be assigned to "invest" in them. If this investment did not "quiet their hearts" and produce the requisite tribute to the Pastor/Teacher's message, then there would be rebuke and innuendo from the pulpit beginning at a level of "subtle" warnings; working up to (depending the observed response) a crescendo of "whispering-to-screaming" tirades. Names were never mentioned "publicly" (although there were mentioned plenty in the back offices, car, etc.), but many folks figured out who was being "addressed" by who was seated (or not seated) at pastor's table in the raps, or riding in the car, etc.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

There are certain qualities that I seek both in others and for myself (to be in myself). I like creativity and sensitivity, individual thinking and perception, a sense of proportion and balance. I like those who are willing to stand against the crowd when they are right or led by God in it. I like those who seek understanding and try to avoid denial. I like gracefulness and mutual respect. I like those who are willing to love and serve others at their own expense, and yet retain their place to obey the Spirit if He leads them away from that in the moment at hand. I like those who try their best to not manipulate or wrongfully influence others; who are entreatable, but not by the flesh of others. I like those who realize their limitations, and that God doesn't have any He doesn't choose; and that He can work through them beyond their limits if He chooses to. I like those who are not slaves of the system or intimidated by it. I like those who realize that God is indeed everywhere, and that He is in control, no matter what things look like. I like those who can pray together with others without feeling the necessity to have the air continually filled with words; who can approach God with expectancy, even in impossible things. I like those who really want Him, even to their own hurt. I like those who would rather see others progress spiritually than to progress themselves; but who want to progress so they can help others. I like those who truly love both the Word and the Spirit. I want everyone to know truth and to find their particular place in God's order. We are meant to be the means for His order to come into our own situations and conversations; to be passages for light to come through to the others around us. In order to get where we're supposed to get, we have to look at it. We're in transit. He's the One who changes us; not vice-versa.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Boddah and Ab, thanks for getting it.

The rest, thanks for confirming that nagging suspicion in the back of my head. You are the same people which made me feel like crap when I was a kid, who made me feel as though I had to conform in order to participate and to find comfort. You are the group of "do gooders" that pointed their finger at everyone and laughed. You are the group that viciously attacked difference.

If it helps you to imagine me to be a power monger and an emotional cripple to maintain the viability of the little clique you've created here, great.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Hey, there...hang on a minute. I am not sure just what your hang up is, but just because we don't get doesn't make us bad people,

I do not recall ever pointing my finger at anyone, laughing or EVER viciously attacking differences. And what the hell are you talking about with the "clique" thing?

Trying to understand where you're coming from is dificult for me, I admit, but I have done nothing of the things you have stated and am not happy with your accusations.

"Do gooders" because we apologise for possibly offending someone and wanting to understand what we said that offended? That makes no sense at all...And if there AB and Boddah understand what it is that has your knickers in a knot would they kindly explain it to me...who has not clue one? As for not conforming...look, I have never conformed to anything for long enough to be noticable. Not even GG.

You confuse me. I have asked what the offending attitude is and you don't want to answer. Power monger? Emotional cripple? Who said that??? Could you simply explain this resentment, what it is you're angry about in simple language? If I am to lumped into a category, do me at least the courtesy to exlain why?

I honestly have read and reread this thread and I am missing why you are ****ed off.

So call me stupid. But at least answer?

[arguendo (arguendo)]

RJ:

You bug the heck out of me, but I respect you. But I shouldn't, because uyou have often laughed in my face.

I already said that describing someone who feels differently about the company of woman as not human as being unfair, how many times do I have to say it? I am not hostile, I am unyeilding.

People form TBS/GG seem to have very low tolerance for tenison and conflict. That's not good. The need for immediate satisfaction is not good. The need for people to be liked by everyone is not good. These things make peole sacrifice what the they know to be true and right in their lives. CHS and GG feed on this need to make nice and be accepted.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

You win.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

BTW, cults are only about power.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

You're right, RJ. You're perfect. You're all perfect. It's me and when I am gone, things will be okay. So I'm outta here. Have a nice life.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I realise I bug you, I laugh in a lot of people's faces...not always a good thing... and I have respected you all along, just not always understood where you're coming from as I tend to be dense at some points when things aren't spelled out.

Ok. Now I get it.

"People form TBS/GG seem to have very low tolerance for tenison and conflict. That's not good. The need for immediate satisfaction is not good. The need for people to be liked by everyone is not good. These things make peole sacrifice what the they know to be true and right in their lives. CHS and GG feed on this need to make nice and be accepted."

This i do understand. However, I think going to the other extreme, which I am apt to do, isn't always good either...at least not for me. I was NOTHING like anybody's vision of a goody two shoes before TBS, they tried to make me one and succeeded only in part...it is a conflict for me to strike a balance between obvious conflict and a civilized discussion. I am conflicted, no big deal. I am not perfect...and BTW "you win" also makes no sense.

I totally understand that cults are all about power...but that doesn't mean those that escape all have to be. I am a confrontational sort, I know...but not always. I have no problem with you being you you are...but you seem to be totally ****ed when the rest of us are who we are. isn't it taking it to the extreme to call someone who might just be a gentle personality names for being something you are not apt to truest.

I don't trust men like Jim who come off holier than thou and can be a pain in the ass. But this seems to be who he is. By trying to have a relatively calm conversation with him here and there I have learned some stuff. Does that make me a goody two shoes? I don't think so. I think it makes me a person who wants to learn a few things here and there.

You are someone I have learned things from, but this last round of accusations and lumping me in with your negative attitudes about others is ridiculous. You don't like it? Well hold up...I don't like it either.

practice what you preach...you don't like accusations and finger pointing? Who the hell does? You don't like it...then don't do it. You want respect? That's how to get it.

Sounds simple...it may not be.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Perfect??? Who the hell said that? Have a nice life???

Arguendo...you need to rethink this stuff.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"You're right, RJ. You're perfect. You're all perfect. It's me and when I am gone, things will be okay. So I'm outta here. Have a nice life."

WE don't like confrontation???? It looks like you who is running away from this one. Still not sure why, but ...pot, kettle, black, Arguendo. Remember?

[arguendo (arguendo)]

RJ, the kindness and understandfing, its reserved for people that agree with you. You're very much like Jim this way.

BTW, in my mind, my comments really weren't addressed to you, but now that I see how you've reacted, I see that they were.

And you've twisted my words to put me in the worst possible light, which is something many of you do. I took me ages to learn that it wasn't purposeful. I guess you learned it from the master.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

How much abuse did you want me to take?

You, like Jim, are a nasty fighter.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I am not a nasty fighter...I am just trying hard to engage you in some informative conversation.

One one hand yyou say you don't want to play nice with goody goody's, I try hard to engage you in a less "curtained" conversation and you accuse me of being nasty...you've lost me here. I admit it.

I want to more clearly understand the conversation about the effect of GG on women's self esteem and sense of self worth. I am trying to learn for every conversation here...that's all.

Tell me what it is you want from conversations, A! I can do both...be aggressive...or are only you allowed to be? Ort I can be less confrontational like Karen...and then get blasted for being phoney? I am missing the middle ground...what is it?

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Really, how much character assassignation and ridicule am I supposed to take from you guys. Just enough to make me submit and play nice?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Please understand...I am not attempting to asassinate your character. I simply am wanting to discuss with you the subject at hand. I am trying to find a place where you are comfortable talking to me about it., I am confused about how to apporach you and this is my dilemma, perhaps it is not yours.

I am not, I repeat NOT trying to pain you at all. But tell me how to talk to you in a way that helps me to understand...please? it is a true request meant NOT to put you down...but you really can't have it both ways...I won't know how if you don't tell me. I am in the dark unless you enlighten me. I am willing to learn...but you gotts tell me where you are coming from, so I can continue to converse. See what I mean?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

And believe it or not, my words here are not meant to ridicule anyone, especially you.

[karen (karen)]

Arguendo, I do feel I have to clarify what I was trying to say. In no way was I diminishing the particular kind of abuse women face in the ministry. As I said, I could never live up to the idealized concept of womanhood worshiped in TBS. Frankly, it made me feel like crap. What I was addressing was what looks to me like a counter-reaction that is self-destructive and abusive toward women on the opposite end of the spectrum. For a woman to reject women as a population, saying they are passive-aggressive and weak, is in essence a rejection of one’s self.

I never said you were an emotional cripple or asked you to conform. However, I do think power and control are important in your value system. I guess I’m used to focusing on the premises underlying a particular world view—not so much as a judgment, but as a way to see how they relate to mine.

I challenged some of the ideas expressed on this thread—which is not a rejection of you or anyone else.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Right, RJ. I'm a coward and hypocrite. I am inherently unfair person. I am a hypocrite and a coward. I am the worst kind of person. What else do you what to add?

[arguendo (arguendo)]

RJ, that is either a lie or just stupid. If you are attacking someone you are not trying to understand them.

And who the hell asked you to fix anything? No one asked you to do so. I can't have both ways? I didn't ask for either way.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

"For a woman to reject women as a population, saying they are passive-aggressive and weak, is in essence a rejection of one’s self."

Had you said this in the beginning, I would have admitted that that one cannot deny a certain amount of self-loathing lurking in the shadows. It's problematic.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Stop. If I were going to call you a coward and a hypocrite I would have used those specific words. What the hell...?

I am not playing this game. I asked to be helped to understand. You are upset and not understanding my sincere attempts to understand. Fine. Been there do that all too often.

You obviously have not understood me. That is also fine. But hear this...I am quite capable of using the vocabulary all by myself. You don't need to read "coward and hypocrite" unless you believe it about yourself. I said no such thing. Nor did I mean to say it...for if I had I would have used those exact words.

When you are ready to do something other than accuse and react to abuse that has NOT been directed toward you from me...let's talk. I admire you, but am not about to let this continue if you are not in the right place to do so. That would be wrong.

I hope we can talk again. I could learn musch from you...and maybe you could learn from me...it's a longshot, but something to think about.

I do care about you A, and for that I will never apologize.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Nice...I am either a liar or stupid.

Oh well. The woman who isn't fond of abuse feels free to be abusive?

Lovely...*sigh* Karen...good luck. I am missing something here and guess it is just as well.

[karen (karen)]

You are a formidable and complex woman. I am grateful for your voice on this forum.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Is this conversation getting somewhere? A lot of it makes no sense to me; and it's not because I'm a man.

For instance, Arguendo; these your words:

'I already said that describing someone who feels differently about the company of woman as not human as being unfair, how many times do I have to say it? I am not hostile, I am unyielding.'

Now, here is what Karen said that I think your statement was some kind of response to:

'I have observed that sometimes when a woman has hostility toward other women, it is because she perceives gentleness and kindness as weakness. I do not share in this perception. There are extremes in both genders and I find them to be caricatures of true humanity. I say, dare to be fully human.'

Arguendo, I don't think Karen meant to imply that you were extreme or that you were unhuman. Is that the way you took what she said? I have great difficulty understanding what exactly you are saying above; no matter how many times I read it, it doesn't come clear. Maybe if you'd reword it as if I were a child, I might understand. I want to be friends, allowing you whatever differences you want. My whole life, I've been a nonconformist. I hate being categorized, and don't wish to categorize you. This isn't compromise or war. We're just different; and that's okay. I'm not your advisor, or trying to sell anything.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Arguendo,

I don't want you to go away and I don't want you to play nice. I hesitate even posting because I don't want you to feel someone else is ganging up on you. I don't want you to change. But I am guilty of wanting to know you better. I guess it is a difference in perception. (connecting through the written word alone doesn't help the matter)
I write: open up, and You read: submit...
I write: issues, and You read: cripple...

And if I write: sorry, I used a crowbar to get in.. should have been more accepting without demands.. You read: coward and one who backs down...

I write: don't leave, you are needed.. Please read: don't leave, you are needed.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Karen, you suggested that someone who held my views was less than human and I was not the only person who saw that. You didn't ask me to conform, you condemned me to being sub-human.

When did I say that I reject women as a population, BTW? I think I said "instinctual dislike of women." But wholesale rejection of women would be a lot of work. That's half the population of the world, that's my mother that I adore, that's my grandmother who was my role model, that's a majority of the people that I work with and whom I respect, that's half the people I tip a glass with when the day is done.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

RJ, if you don't see yourself as being as nasty as JF when you're crossed, then you are not paying attention.

The underlying problem was really not about you. You are the one that decided it was about "our" misunderstanding. You twisted my words, asserted things about your own motivations that I think are untrue, and the bottom line is that you are still pressing me to bend to your will.

And

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Arguendo; I don't think the post Karen made that you object to was directed at you. To find your name above it you have to go a ways up the thread. I think she was just saying what the overall conversation brought to her mind. And I liked Jeannie's response directly below what you had written. It was as if the women back then were hidden inside this false image that they'd been given; and you weren't dealing with real people at all.

If you want me to butt out of this conversation, I'm willing to.

[boddah (boddah)]

arguendo, i hope you aren't gone for good. you were often funny and always interesting. maybe i'll catch ya on another thread?

rjf, i think when she said "you win" she was referring to the fact that there she was, like you had asked, trying to explain herself to you. i think explanation was necessary, but she maybe had wanted to avoid it, since it's a big scary deal to confide in someone who (since they didn't completely understand what you meant the first time around) has a chance of giving up and just branding you a "power monger or emotional cripple."
being misunderstood sucks a lot. that's a major theme in this thread, no? it's really easy for people coming out of our mutual background to hold their breath and wait for someone to jump on them for something they didn't mean. if it doesn't happen for a while, you might be able to distance yourself from the threat. that's when you can accept yourself as being conflicted. if it keeps happening, or was really traumatic when it did, you swear never to let your guard down for a second until you're sure the enemy is dead. it's just hard to tell who to pin the awful feelings to. but you know the feelings are there... so you treat it like a whodunit, everyone in the room is eliminated as a suspect until those responsible reveal themselves. this scenario does not account for the criminal that sneaked in the window and killed the lady of the house, then flew to the swiss alps on a phony passport to wallow in the others' misery.

jeannie, sk's wedding sounds very, very cool. i remember the first time i let my hair down at a wedding, it was an ex-ggwo friend of mine freshman year of college, and there were a mixed group of currents and exes in attendance. i drank a reasonable amount of champagne, took off my shoes, and (don't like to dance very much, though i love music) ran down the hilly yard in the warm grass. no sitting thru the discussions about the precious gift of virginity (that conversation can last longer than you'd like to believe.) after that i started to like weddings.

nono., loved your use of all the jargon in quotes. i'd forgotten what it's like to try and figure out a foreign language with no translator!

bob, i agree in general with your carefully worded and somewhat (purposefully?) vaguely directed post... you do still carry a bit of an accent from the strange language mentioned above.
reminds me a bit of the prayer room in lenox (i was around 8.) i had this holy-of-holies awe of the silent, silent prayer room. it creeped me out, so i ran past it in the hall whenever i could. there were always people in there praying, sometimes aloud but more often silently or very quietly. i knew by instinct that something about the prayer room was truly right. the fact that all the participants seemed to know what that "something" was and i didn't-- and later, they explained it in words i couldn't understand (yeah, so i was eavesdropping in the church lobby)-- made me feel alienated and in horror of making a grave doctrinal error out of ignorance.
i've read a lot from you, you're not judgemental or haughty or secretive, you're honest. but your phraseology creeped me out a little, 'cause i still don't quite understand it.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Karen: I am glad that you got up this morning and stuck to your guns. It's good for everyone involved.

Bob: I believe you to be a peacemaker, and for that reason I try to never attack you. But the last thing that this group of women needs is a man interjecting himself into the conflict to explain it and fix it. That's closer to the problem than the solution. Women figuring out how to have conflict without killing each other is more the point. What Karen said was the catalyst.

Jeannie: Your posts drip with condescension toward me.

[boddah (boddah)]

hey, arg., didn't know you were still here!

anyway, was listening to simon and garfunkel before bed last night and came across something i found relevant:

(from "the boxer")

"in the clearing stands a boxer, and a fighter by his trade; and he carries the reminder of every glove that laid him down, or cut him till he cried out, in his anger and his shame: i am leaving, i am leaving but the fighter still remains.."

the fighters' defining characteristic is that they're still standing, if dazed, after enduring a lot of pain. we're all fighters here. can also be read as saying, some of the pain comes with us wherever we go.

[karen (karen)]

Arguendo,

This is my last comment on this subject—for your sake as well as my own. There is a huge difference between saying someone is "sub-human" vs. settling for less than all that our humanity offers us. I put myself in this category, as well as every other person on the planet. We all settle for less. All we can do is see where we get off track and make adjustments. For me, it is a daily, moment-by-moment process. Of course, my faith is inextricably intertwined with this. But you knew that.

BTW-my last post was addressed to you.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

boddah; I'm not sure if all that you're saying about my use of language has to do with silence in prayer; but let me address that particular issue as I see it. I seek in prayer to be directed and prompted by the Holy Spirit. There are people who pray lists of names or approach prayer in other organized fashions, some 'praying the Word'. I'm not saying any of these approaches are 'wrong'. But when I pray together with others, I find it flows better in the Spirit if there is a kind of mutual waiting on God kind of attitude to it. There can be spaces or breaks of silence inbetween openly worded prayer. I don't go to prayer feeling that I have to produce something. I'm seeking God's outpourings for what He wants, whether for individuals or situations.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah; I remember you posting things about Kurt Cobain. Are you a Shannon Hoon fan as well? I've been listening to a lot of Blind Melon's 'Soup' recently. It's a gloriously creative and complex album. He died of a cocaine overdose in 1995; a serious loss to lovers of good music. I get a distinct impression he was bipolar; though I've been unable to find anything saying so. There's a lot of pain in his music.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Ok, Arguendo.. I accept that is your perception of me and I blame it on the medium we are reduced to communicating in. I lay my crowbar down.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Be well all.

[boddah (boddah)]

bob--
no, the prayer room was just a metaphor. i was afraid that might misfire... i meant that i still feel funny around christian terminology, which i never personally used. you're not full-fledged jargon man, but you've got some phrases that either i don't understand, or that shut off my brain automatically. just wanted to say.

shannon hoon, yeeeeeees... i only have the "bee girl" album but i've had it forever and always liked it. his voice is a little irritating in that led zeppelin/helium balloon way, but the images are so effective. like when he's rambling through the weeds and sleeping beneath the trees, because: "my life is a life that i have come to know; and my eyes can't conceive a world that cannot grow." this from the song "holy man," i think, which is about a "righteous" man who doesn't understand the deeper reasons for his junkie lifestyle.

glad nobody's fighting, i really really have to get going now.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah; I actually like the fact that his voice is irritating, and I'm a sometimes singer. He has edge.

Sorry about the jargon. I try to get beyond that, but I grew up in churches, reading King James and even hearing people pray in thees and thous. Interesting; they didn't talk to anyone else like that - just God. I suppose it's the Baptist form of speaking in tongues. I can understand why your mind would go into shut-off. I feel the same way about sales pitches, political statements and instructions. And when others recite memorized answers or formulas to things, I find myself bored and wanting out. Feel free to come back at me to try to get me to rephrase things if you think it would help.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Love this thread, I don't say a word and get brought into it anyway. What a bunch of silly hens.

[boddah (boddah)]

bob-
at break in class, will be short
listened to blind m. walking to school, misquoted.
"rambles thru weeds...etc." from "paper scratcher."
"holy man" different but also relevant.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Uh, friends, at the risk of sounding - unfeminine - in football it's called "piling on" and they throw a flag for it. I believe it results in a 15 yard penalty where the offensive team has to move back.

People have been through much unpleasantness while associated with GG. All of us have developed different coping skills. One set is not more valuable than others. What we value, distain, avoid or embrace has been shaped by our experiences with GG. I believe it was exponentially more intense for those who were children within the system. Everyone deserves to be accepted as who they are. No criteria, no exceptions.

Jim, don't stir the pot on this one, please.

BTW - My defense and support of Arguendo is not because I perceive that in any way she needs it. It is because I get her and I think she gets me.

Arguendo, I don't want you to go anywhere. It would make me unhappy. That's about as sentimental as it's gets folks.

Boddah, if I have failed to mention it, I am glad you are here.

Done.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah; You can find easy to read lyrics for Blind Melon's albums at letssingit.com

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"EVERYONE deserves to be accepted as who they are. No criteria, no exceptions."

I agree, but does Arguendo? I can't say that I know.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

I do. Absolutely. Sentimentality is accepted by women. Directness is not. It is perceived as impolite or aggressive, when it is just direct.

(Message edited by Anon Brief on November 13, 2004)

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

This makes post #18. When do I get the decoder ring? Do I have to pay for shipping &amp; handling?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"Directness is not. It is perceived as impolite or aggressive, when it is just direct."

This makes total sense...now I get it.

Arguendo...ya'll bring your direct self back? I won't say please...just come back. I am selfish and need your directness (now that I have a clue).

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

No decoder ring till 75 or so...but don't hold your breath. Harumph...I still haven't got mine yet!

[karen (karen)]

Jim,

Why did you have to be demeaning? Why can't you see us as people expressing our thoughts? Are you cackling when you speak your mind?

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Bob,
You truly are Factnet's Sponge Bob! Aye Aye Captain!
"I grew up in churches, reading King James and even hearing people pray in thees and thous. Interesting; they didn't talk to anyone else like that - just God. I suppose it's the Baptist form of speaking in tongues." LOLhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif
For Him,
Dave
P.S. Don't assume anything because you make an....

[nonotone (nonotone)]

hodeuon,

I don't think CHS/GGWO diverges from orthodox Christianity in Eternal Sonship, the Trinity, etc. What I was paraphrasing was one of CHS' many, many applications of God's nature to the human experience through the use of "unorthodox" definition. The point that CHS was attempting to make in this particular doctrine class was that spirit-filled Christians don't have a personality but do have a "derived individuality". He based this premise on some teaching of the late Roman Catholic Bishop, Fulton Sheen. I was actually in this class (and the regular service messages that followed it). CHS was dealing (and often dealt) with the "problem of the human condition" (e.g. why there is so much gossip, divorce, damaged emotions, etc.) in the Church. This was the framework for this particular CHS/GGWO doctrinal application. I believe that CHS' point was that if, we as spirit filled Christians could "derive our individuality" from the fact that we are new creations in Christ, then our "personality", rooted in the so-called "old sin nature" would not have place for expression. We would be "manifesting Christ" instead. Hodeuon, your are certainly more qualified than me, but in our honest understanding, is this "derived individuality" (... for the Christian, not necessarily for Jesus Christ) completely true to Scriptural Anthropology? Because, if not, I think we can all see that its yet another way to gain control of the listener's mind.

I believe that this can occur by misrepresenting the uniqueness of every human being as a sovereign creation of God.

(Message edited by nonotone on November 13, 2004)

(Message edited by nonotone on November 13, 2004)

[hodeuon (hodeuon)]

Thanks, nonotone. Good to hear that CHS probably isn't off on the doctrine of the Trinity. I'm not sure about being more qualified, but it seems to me like there are some problems in that teaching. Yes, Christians are in Christ, but that doesn't wipe out the mind, will, or emotions we had before being justified. Having no individuality does sound like a way to keep everyone in line.

Hodeuon

[boddah (boddah)]

(thanks, i'm glad you're here too, anon.b.!)

bob,
what do you sing??

know what you mean about the irritating voice being rather charming. i like it too. so help me, i think that about marilyn manson... also i keep "arguing" (not really) with my husband about whether or not u2's bono's cigar smoker rasp enhances the songs or not... he says no, i say, let the man develop as he will. it brings character to the vocals.

you know who else deserves attention? sinead o'connor. she recently retired from music in order to teach religion in irish grade school (a while ago she became a priest in a *very* progressive catholic church.) but before that she released a strong album called "faith and courage." (not her last, but the last one i loved.) "universal mother" and "i do not want what i haven't got" are also great. granted her music can be a bit canned, but to me she's the voice of resurrection. actually, i really like it when she does covers, she's done nirvana's "all apologies," elton john's "sacrifice," and of course "nothing compares 2 u." she does a heartbreaking ave maria. everything is a prayer when she sings it.
read up on her bio if you get a chance-- she was horribly abused as a child by her mother (hence her career-stopper anti-abuse performance on snl, remember the pope picture?) while she was locked in a dark closet and left one day, she sensed a presence there with her, and promised devote herself to that entity if she survived. as she grew she struggled with depression for many years; had two children; was married; was gay; was famous, popular, then suddenly hated; was on a quest for identity-- and wrote it all down in these clear-as-a-bell songs, ranging from anguish to mourning to motherlove to feminism to politics to her experience with the infinite. then she got really serious about her promise to the presence and bowed out to do church work.

[boddah (boddah)]

ps- bono also has edge, ha ha.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

When I was active in a community chorus a few years back, I was singing tenor. In church I kind of bounce all over the place.

I like much of what Sinead has done, although there was one album that I definitely didn't like. She sang with Peter Gabriel on US. I actually saw her perform with him once. I like Bono a lot. Edge as well.

[karen (karen)]

I have been thinking about the debacle I started on this thread for two days. It is no surprise to me that the men don’t get it—even Bob, who is wonderfully receptive to women—because it is a subtext that is communicated between women. I want to address this, but hesitate, because I do not have a pseudonym to shield me. Well, here goes.

Although it was not my intention or conscious realization when I wrote my original post, I can now see the judgment in it. Yes, Arguendo, I was criticizing you because you are not like me. But let me explain why.

You are representative to me of the kind of woman who has always judged me. All my life I have been a person whose emotions are fairly close to the surface. And yes, there are aspects of my personality and physicality that are conventionally feminine. But I consider myself much more than a stereotypical female. However, some of the strongest and most interesting women I have encountered in my life have not given me a chance. I have discerned that they interpret my openness and unwillingness to engage in power politics as weakness. However, I just choose not to play games. My observation is that both genders go through a series of conventional moves that help them to size up their opponents. It’s like a chess game between professionals—the first move sets the tone for the entire game. The games are different between the genders—women often communicate in passive-aggressive ways and men provoke one another, either through humorous banter or direct hostility. I have perceived that some women have merely exchanged one mode of operation for the other. However, both kinds are distasteful to me and neither is truly direct, because in neither scenario is the real person revealed.

I have come to expect judgment from certain kinds of men. That I can deal with. But when it comes from another woman, it’s too close to home—it’s a betrayal that impacts the way I see myself.

So here’s the terrible truth about me—it’s fairly easy to hurt my feelings. Sometimes I even cry. But don’t be deceived about me—I am not weak.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Karen, My note to you was sent before I saw this. I'm interested in what you consider the distinction between provocation and aggression. Isn't provocation just an act of aggression? I, for one, dislike both; not to say that I never do it. I want mutual respect based in reality between real people, complete with whatever their differences are. I hate games and masks. They are just the elements of lying. I try to see what I can, and to live out of love for the benefit of others. I fail in that often; but it's my goal.

[boddah (boddah)]

this is going to be long, so ready the wet noodle for lashing.

hey karen--
first of all, the truth about you is not terrible. listen to doris.

i think you're dealing with one of the classic feminist dilemmas. (not classic as in icon, but classic and completely necessary, like kleenex.)
what to do, prove to the world that women could have been succeeding in a man's world all along, or completely overhaul society so women's voices are truly, in every sense, equal to men's? and that means all women's voices, not just those who agree with the first part of the above. the second part of the above takes a massive amount of effort, transformation of the system from the ground up. (we'd no way to get to start at the top!)

**(bear in mind that what follows is a black-and-white distillation of millions of individuals, used as an illustration. in reality, each man and woman is a different shade of "grey," whether they admit it or not. can't help it, if you're born on the planet earth.)**

so a lot of women say screw it, i'm just going to go kick some ass ('cause they can.) since they're going after what many men consider "theirs," these women have to watch their backs and be willing to fight just to walk down the street to work. some of these women are what you might call traditionally "feminine," and just happen to be really really good at what have been seen as men's jobs. others dismiss "femininity" altogether, thinking if they are perceived in any way as a "lady" it will undermine their ass-kicking credibility. (and it does sometimes.)

when i see a magazine article of successful (read, wealthy) women and they're all wearing heels and a skirt suit, i get depressed. not because i don't own a skirt suit and heels myself, but because now the male-dominated workplace is going to expect me to do my job in debilitating footwear, and think they're feminists.
i always admire the brassy ones that rejects the "feminine," but they intimidate me because i know i have so many personality traits that would drive them nuts. such as: the sense of shame and self-doubt i inherited from chs; my willingness to be involved in meaningful relationships with men (not just sexual;) my hatred of sports; my lipstick, my purse... as the list continues, i remember wilting before the fabulous strong women who wore men's clothes and cologne, carried only wallets in their back pockets, got buzz cuts.

the second group of feminists, who believe in *thoroughly* overhauling patriarchy (not just who's sitting in the ceo's chair, or what they're wearing, but the very values that put that person there) are divided in two camps:

those who think the men have had their chance, blown it, and now a matriarchy (some say short-term, some say not) is the only possible thing that could balance the scales in any lasting way.

and, those who believe approximately as germaine greer said:
"..women could make politics irrelevant by a kind of spontaneous cooperative action, the like of which we have never seen, which is so far from people's idea of state structure and viable social structure that it seems to them like total anarchy. and what it really is, is very subtle forms of interrelation, which do not follow the heirarchical pattern which is fundamentally patriarchal. the opposite of partriarchy is not matriarchy, but fraternity; and i think it's women who are going to have to break the spiral of power and find the trick of cooperation."

not that men couldn't do it, but (in general) it's easier to get women moving because (in general) men are bestowed with cultural clout, whether they asked for it or not, and will likely be slower to push for change. the "greer group" is more open to discussion, more open to helpful compromise, and so will take a lot longer to gain respect in a world that honors the cutthroat. but these women aren't looking to be the boss, they want to build a real democracy.

all of the feminist subsets i've mentioned are passionate and genuinely desire a better world for women. they will, however, eat each other alive in what was supposed to be a "round table" or some such. so karen, don't feel like a woman who can't find a niche. if a woman says she's got her niche nailed down, she's deluded or full of it. the jury's not even close to a decision. (i'm rooting for democracy.)

bob (and karen)-

i would say that provocation doesn't have to be an act of aggression. (as in, "thought-provoking.") mutually respectful people can, with care and dignity, have a zesty argument and mean absolutely no harm. it's all about the intent to converse, not to win.
as you used it, though, in terms of power struggle-- yeah, if you can cut the fight off at the provocation stage the really scary aggression can be aborted...

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

In Karen's post, she followed the word provoke with 'humorous banter or direct hostility'. This evokes for me the sense of goading underlying the banter, or teasing. This may be funny, but it can have a cutting edge, subtle or not. Thus, I see it as just another form of attack, chosen as more subtle than direct hostility. Both seem to me to be forms of aggression. Provocation of thought is not what I think Karen was portraying.

[boddah (boddah)]

i agreed with that in the last two lines of my post.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah; When Germaine Greer talks about cooperation; is she refering to cooperation between women only, or between the genders, or between us all?

[boddah (boddah)]

germaine greer, not such a great scholar. popular because she was very charming and saucy, she wrote the popular book "the female eunuch" in the 70's. some people (including men) liked the books' direct language... and in the beginning she sounded more like a sexual liberationist, advocating that women get in touch with their sexuality because they'd been "castrated" by society. she did not like gay people-- thought they were trying to deny their gender-- so no lesbian subtext (which i would normally read into the women in touch w/female sexuality thing.) in her later career she wrote a memoir called "daddy," and another book called "the whole woman" that criticized men quite a bit. instead of being saucy, the new book rehashed archaic feminist complaints from the same archaic approach (some parts valid, many not.) her fans, male and female, were generally disapointed. one writer said she went back to the first book and realized that everyone had been reading it the way they wanted to-- that there should be sexual and social freedom among us all-- but that the seeds of greer's later works were there all along. other critics have said she did a complete about face in philosophy. depends if you want to accept her early work as it was first interpreted, or through the lens of her nasty new work.
the quote i used was from the beginning of s. o'connor's "universal mother," and i know for a fact that s. was using it to mean cooperation among all of us, both genders. (a plus due in part to s.'s bisexuality.) i personally think that's why greer emphasized fraternity vs. matriarchy or patriarchy. people who advocate cooperation among "women only," to my experience, tend to go off the deep end and get all matriarchal on ya. they just want to replace old injustices with new ones. fought a lot of people at college on that topic.

also, i was thinkin,' do some of you (bob, maybe others too) have the same reaction to lengthy diatribes on feminism that i hae to ggwo jargon? just curious. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[karen (karen)]

Boddah,

Perhaps you've gotten the idea by now that I am leery of extreme positions. And yes, I am offended by diatribes against feminism. I instinctively recoil from assertions that feminism has destroyed the family unit, contributed to the downfall of society, etc. However, I am also ambivalent about feminist subculture and what I perceive as a rigid paradigm imposed on the world. Perhaps because of my experiences in the ministry, I am hypersensitive to any culture with a homogeneous platform. I want to explore individual issues without resistance. And yes, there are differences within strains of feminism, but some stuff is just not negotiable. I've found that it is considered blasphemy merely to ask some questions. I also don't agree with the underlying premises shared by the feminists I've encountered that the answer is found exclusively in a community of women--and what unites us is our victimization at the hands of men.

When I taught freshman English at my university, I introduced lots of controversial issues in the classroom, including the dynamics between men and women and feminism. I tried not to steer the conversation toward any conclusions, but instead asked lots of questions. I was not surprised by the reaction of some young men who obviously had problems with assertive women. But I was shocked at the defensive reactions of some of the mature, respectful guys. They perceived on a gut level that they had been demonized by feminism at worst and at the very least, were left out in the cold. They wanted to be part of the conversation and felt that feminism marginalized them.

Bottom line for me: anything that creates an "other" is not a solution.

BTW--thanks for your response to my post yesterday. I appreciated your insights.

[boddah (boddah)]

so, you're not an existentialist, then. (kidding, 'cause they say "other" a lot.)

are you a phenomenologist? (not kidding.)

pantheist?

label-hating cosmic traveler (kidding again, but only sort of.)

i just asked about the diatribes because i can go on at length on some topic, including feminism, even if i'm not taking sides and am just explaining. didn't want people's eyes glazing over.

karen, i know you've had to hash some things out on this thread, but seriously, your sticking up for the individual, plain and simple, without compromise and picking sides, is very refreshing. i enjoy debating extreme sides just for the sake of argument sometimes. if it weren't for people like you, with the reliable compassionate all-including heart. hope i can emulate.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I agree with a lot of what feminists seek. I want women to have fair wages, and a level field for advancement. Personally, I would find it much easier working for a woman than a man, even one I didn't much like. I want women to have a voice in government; in the Church as well as the national one. I am not in favor of abortion as choice, though I think there are circumstances which justify it. I treat my wife as an equal. I try to give her at least equal voice in decisions to be made, and often leave things to her. I also try to give her freedom in other areas. I want her to personally obey God, even if it's what I don't want.

At the same time, I don't want to be excluded or marginalized by women. I want freedom to interact with them. I'm one of those idiots who thinks that as adults we can discuss anything; and think that should start when we're in our teens. Fear of asking questions leads to so much trouble.

I loved this that Karen wrote above: 'I want to explore individual issues without resistance.'

I want to be able to discuss things without anger or offense; to explore the differences and find out how others think and why. And I want to love and help when I can. The difference in another may be something from God; and if so, I'd like to sort of support that; even if I don't really understand it. This is the kind of post you can get when I'm listening to jazz as I write.

[boddah (boddah)]

me too, all 'round. but i've got ani difranco on.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I don't know her musically at all. All I know, is that there's a connection between her and Bruce Springsteen; and I don't really know him, either. I have a bald spot in my musical understanding, from probably early 1976 to sometime in the early 80s. I've caught up with some of that, Police, U2, and others; and people I followed in prior years such as Tull and Yes. But I still have a hole there. And in following years, I'm not oriented to radio. I pick up on certain performers by chance or through library copies. I love Sarah MacLachlan, and early Alanis Morrisette. A lot of other things. But there are holes; and some of them may hold good things. Sorry. I do like the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And the Cure. I'm what should be considered very open minded musically.

[boddah (boddah)]

that's funny, i just switched to a mix cd and alanis m. is playing now! i like maybe 3 of her early songs and the rest drive me nuts.

you won't hear ani on the radio-- she's considered folk, actually, and besides that she's unabashedly liberal and very personal (read, poetic but graphic sex references.) not so well known, but her fans are really die hard. she's this five foot three gal with gigantic combat boots and a guitar, and she walks out on the stage and out comes this power-music like freakin' gideon's army.

cure is great, but kind of all sounds the same. if you like cure and you're brave try bauhaus, one of my favorites. sarah mac. is probably a few notches above alanis, and annie lennox is a few nothes above sarah. red hot chili peppers have a certain je ne sais quois, as did rage against the machine, but they broke up. (bless their cotton sox.) smashing pumpkins are great. love the cranberries. tori amos another one that helped me out a lot in high school-- introduced to her by lucas canino.

got tickets to see ani d. this feb. only my second concert ever, first one was when u2 toured with elevation. u2 got me through high school, and i still respect them not just as musicians but as people-- i cried and cried in the car on the way home, and when i told my dad he thought it was some kind of beatles/elvis mania thing. it wasn't it just felt like i'd met my long lost brothers for the first time.

yeah, unless you have xm satellite radio you might as well stick to npr. everything else is owned by clearchannel, so hope you like teeny-pop.

[karen (karen)]

Boddah,

Okay, I went back and reread the part of your post about diatribes. Missed your point. Please, feel free to go off on any tangent you wish. I’m not opposed to recreational debate.

I was amused by your list of potential categories I might fit into. I had to look up phenomenologist—never heard the word before. I didn’t take any philosophy courses—it’s a hole in my education. Anyway, in some practical ways, that might fit. But I do believe in absolute Truth. I’m a Christian. However, there is a strong experiential component to my faith—which makes me an outsider in some mainstream Christian circles.

I wish it were true that I have a “reliable, compassionate all-including heart.” I’ve been seeing some things about myself lately that are frankly, very ugly. As a graduate student, I’ve researched and written about a number of subcultures—something I find very interesting. And while I thought I was being open-minded, I was in reality, judging everyone inside for succumbing to group-think. Thankfully, one of my professors wouldn’t let me off the hook. She had enough integrity to tell me that I was trivializing these cultures, when I was convinced I was being fair-minded.

As I grapple with this, I realize that I’ve been reenacting my struggle to come out from under TBS control. My confrontational stance is a kind of declaration of independence. But the truth is that while in the ministry, I was often cowardly. I never confronted the leadership when people I knew were being maligned in raps or services. I didn’t stand up to my friends when they said things I thought were blatantly wrong. And when a friend of mine whom I’d been “courting” for the ministry decided God wasn’t leading her to join, I shunned her for a year.

I marvel that even after all the years I’ve been away from the ministry, there are still issues I need to resolve.

[lee (lee)]

gee Karen, we are a large group huh! Nice to have you for company! I can't believe in one moment I cringe at the things I did or didn't do as a faithful beaker and then I'm brawling on factnet with our friend Bruce!
I miss seeing you and Greg.....when Jack and I stop going places every week, we'll have to get toether again. Sure wish we could see the folks from Balt. and Lenox area! and Delaware, Newark....wherever they are!

[karen (karen)]

I love you, Lee. And I love Bruce too. We are all multi-faceted people with a lot of stuff to process.

BTW-I was wondering where you were. So did you have even a moment of compassion for the rest of us New Englanders while you were basking in the Florida sun?

[lee (lee)]

sorry Karen, I was as selfish as selfish could be.......i thoroughly got into my basking! On the way home, Jack, his asst Zac and I moaned and groaned about the 3" of snow and the cold.....I noticed others in our contingent were freely telling the doormen about how tough we have it here.....the people doing the seminar used a part of it to do some recruiting. They asked for resumes! Now we have to answer!

[karen (karen)]

Don't even think about it! I am here to tell you that if you and Jack move to Florida, you'll be out of the geographical will of God.

[lee (lee)]

funny! Seriously, Jack is notorious for changing jobs every few years. He likes the challenges and changes. He has some things he'd like to do but will never get to if he stays in his present position.
who knows?

[karen (karen)]

Arguendo,

If you do stop in here on occasion, I hope you will consider rejoining us. I miss hearing from you and I know I speak for many others as well.

Can you accept my apology? I am sorry for being an insensitive clod.

-Karen

[minutus (minutus)]

Lee &amp; Jack,

Come on down! Florida is a great place to be (even with hurricanes http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.)

[boddah (boddah)]

doris, you're a photographer? my respect for you just grows!

karen,
bingo when you said we survivors have a lot to process at once. next time you see something ugly in yourself, do a little math and subtract the ugliness you inadvertently absorbed from the seething pool of it around you. ggwo was well disguised, and that's not your fault.

i remember, when i was just about old enough to know better, i refused to get into the car of a man nice enough to offer my mom and me a ride to balto. from ohio-- because he smoked. i had been told many times that smoking defiled the temple of your body etc., and i judged the heck out of that poor guy for his addiction. my mom got me in the car by taking me inside my grandma's house and chewing me out for hurting his feelings. but i'll never forget, that was when i realized that maybe, just maybe, the things i had thought were pure about ggwo could hurt people, and i could be the vehicle for that.
heavy realization. happened to all intelligent people ever involved in that place.

[boddah (boddah)]

what's an h among friends? i like photography too, got into it because my husband loved it thru high school and college. he was over it for a while 'cause the ad agency he worked for had him take and retouch pictures of literally thousands of light bulbs and light bulb packages for the g.e. intranet. recently, tho, we've been going out on picture expeditions when there's time...we both like to take sort of abstract textural close ups of objects, but he does a mean landscape and i can catch off-guard portraits pretty well.
greeting card idea fun.

[boddah (boddah)]

ok, are you my alter ego? i'd love to get into forensics of some kind, even though science isn't really my strongest suit. i hesitate to say stuff like that in case people think it's morbid... ever watch the show six feet under on hbo?

[boddah (boddah)]

well, i don't have hbo but we've rented the 2 seasons that are out on dvd (out of 5 total)... it's a black comedy series about the fisher family. the father runs a funeral home but is hit by a bus in the first episode, and his sons get equal shares of the business even though one stayed home and learned the trade and one went prodigal and worked in a whole foods store in seattle. so there's brother tension, and when the prodigal comes home he starts dating a woman with a seriously bipolar brother who goes off his meds periodically, endangering all. the fisher brothers' business is under threat of being forced out of business by a huge corporation, and they always have to foil an evil scheme (usually through standing up and speaking their minds, like happens on tv.) their sister is a senior in high school dealing w/ the death of her dad and her desire to go to art school instead of "real" college. the mother is one of those self-repressing women with a pistol inside, and she's learning to date again and have more confidence in herself. aside from the obligatory (not graphic but plainspoken) sex scenes it's a flawless show. every one begins with a complete stranger who dies in the first scene, and that's the body they're embalming throughout the episode. the bodies talk in surrealistic scenes, and when the characters have a daydream they show it like it's really happening. love it.

i love forensic files, and csi (although that is slightly less realistic!) what is i detective? also a big fan of true crime books, but only the well written ones. read one on leopold and loeb last month, was very good. tell me how the courses look,eh?
i used to work in a luggage store with a guy whose previous job was doing pickups for a funeral home, and i pestered him with questions constantly. (like in the movie "curdled?")

dan has telephoto and wide angle lenses for the manual camera, but i always use the regular lens. he's been using the digital.

[boddah (boddah)]

hard to talk about stuff like this, aside from with family, because so many people think i'm "different" anyway that it doesn't help not to like sex in the city! even family, since i've been in therapy for the depression, sort of has a watchfulness now.
at school (interior design) we were supposed to come up with a business and design concept, logo, and lobby for corporate headquarters; i did "thistlebrook" funeral home, which had art supplies and fountains and tea and a library, and were all out in the woods so people could calm down and reflect if they needed to. turned out really well, soft copper oranges, bronzed greens, blonde wood, deep leaf greens, some stainless finishes.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Lee; The Herrings (Bob, LuAnn and Jenelle) are currently in Kenya. They're due to get back two days after Thanksgiving. It is to be hoped that sometime soon we can have Greg and Karen out this way; and if and when that happens, I'm sure you and Jack will be welcome as well. This has been on the back burner for a while.

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Boddah...

I've posted some of this message on the budapest board too, I apologize for the duplicate but I thought you might be more likely to read it on your "own" thread...

Reading your posts was extremely emotional for me, but even more so when I realized who you were. All that you described about your depression, living in Budapest and the aftermath of GGWO's abuse resonated with me deeply. Boddah, I've been trying to locate both you and your best friend for several years. I don't even know if you remember me, but I always hoped we would reconnect. I left the church in 1998, and you two were the only ones I regretted not keeping in touch with. The real eye-opener was when you guys decided to go to the colleges of your choice, and the missionaries told me not to be friends with you anymore. I've been thinking about you ever since and wishing we could get back in touch.

As for me, I ended up in Kentucky with a scholarship, and now live with my girlfriend in Lexington. Due to the political state of this country, we'll probably end up in Canada. Please do write me, I've been wanting to talk with you for so long.

nehrebeczky at yahoo dot com

Lujza

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Dear Lujza,

I am sure Boddah will connect with you. Your emotional response to her postings have been felt by many of the women on FACTNet. She has the unique gift of putting words to our own struggles and pain. I am sure it resonates even more so for you as you have the Budapest connection. FACTNet has been a place of re-connections. We are glad to have you with us.

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

dear Jeannie,

Thanks so much for replying. I really would like to become a part of this community...I could definitely use the support from people who understand what it was like there...both Hungary and GGWO. The seven years I spent in the church, from age 13, were definitely traumatic, but of course I didn't realize it then. I was a brand new Christian, naive and starry-eyed, enchanted by the friendliness of the American missionaries. I was also a lonely teenager from a broken family--the perfect target for emotional manipulation and brainwashing. I was so hungry for approval and affection from my newfound "spiritual family" that for several years I believed every word I heard at church. Although I was raised by bohemian artist parents, under the church's influence I was ready to denounce the world and become a missionary myself.

Because the "Body" was my only social support system, I wrapped myself up in it completely. I attended every service and evangelism, and got more and more emotionally dependent on them. At the same time, I was struggling with my independent spirit and sense that this mind control was wrong. Add to that my deep love for literature, the arts and other "worldly" things I was raised with that the church taught distracted me from God. Boddah and her friend seemed to be the only ones at church who shared my love for such things and didn't do as they were told. The witch-hunt that began against them when they went to college appalled me and made me love them more. It also opened my eyes to all the ugliness lurking below the affectionate facade of the missionaries, and ceased my unconditional trust for them. I gradually distanced myself from the church, attended less and less, and finally left.

After I left, I felt like my whole social system had crumbled apart. All my friends were church people, and I had to burn my bridges and start again from scratch. It was a very lonely and painful time that still haunts me. I should have known better than to enter a Christian college after all this, but I got a scholarship and was thrilled, thinking since they allowed women to preach there, it can't be that bad. It was, and after transferring from there I felt the same burnt-out loneliness. I really feel for Boddah especially because I have felt a little bit of the displacement of missionary kids, stuck between two cultures. My background was Hungarian, but at church and college I spoke English and my friends were Americans. I feel like I've lost my roots, not sure where I belong anymore. I've been struggling with clinical depression for years, but have just now found a therapist promising any concrete help. I know it's going to take years to deal with all this plus the family trauma, but it's a start.

Several of you have spoken about the disdain the church has for women. Looking back, I am horrified by the blatant misogyny demonstrated by the pastors while as usual the women did all the work to keep the ministry running. After leaving the church I delved into feminist and lesbian literature, and felt like a weight was lifted off my chest. I had always known that I liked women, but of course GGWO made me bury these "satanic temptations" deep inside. Unfortunately, I also attended a similarly homophobic Christian college, so that delayed getting real about my sexuality. When I decided to come out of the closet, I felt like I was "born again" in a new sense. Since then, I have found my life partner and we're planning to move to Canada. She's also from a strict religiuos background, so she understands how I feel. But we have found an inclusive Episcopalian church that openly welcomes LGBT people, and our experience there has been extremely healing.

Well, I guess this is more than enough for an introductory post. Again Jeannie thank you so much for welcoming me. I searched my memories for you but to be honest can't recall you. In 1992 I was only 14, so you probably wouldn't remember me. I was a homely little teenage girl with long brown hair and thick glasses, who loved to help with translation.

Lujza


(Message edited by melymbrosia on November 21, 2004)

[boddah (boddah)]

lujza, babe, you've been through the mill!

i think a little cynicism probably did you good. and one thing pointless restraints will give smart people is cynicism.
i remember, you were always very loving and didn't understand when people were catty or sharp with you for no apparent reason. yeah, so the cult thing explains that, eh? honesty is a threat to them.

i think you managed to contact my parents, i vaguely remember my mom freaking out because she didn't know who would find her next. they do not want to be found, and at the time it seemed like they wanted me to protect them by staying quiet. so i have until now. they do love you, as do i. they recall so many people fondly, it's sad that they had to give up everything to forget ggwo. the people who post here are capable of telling their stories without breaking their hearts again; talking to people still in the ministry, debating and joking about their experience. my parents are not emotionally ready for that.

when you said girlfriend on the other thread i wondered, but was going to ask by email. i can relate to a lot of your story. some lesbians think it's a cop-out (i was never quite part of the crowd at college, with dan around) but i consider myself bi. i'm married to a man i love, but it could have gone either way. recently i was in contact with carlos as he came out (did you meet him in bp? ecuadorian?) he's like a new person, confident, content, and-- best part-- his boyfriend is going to college here and carlos might move up to go into an mba program.

my friend (not sure if she wants into this) converted to orthodox judaism, as you might have known? she sort of went agnostic but still loves the culture of the jewish religion, and calls herself jewish. she got married august 1 and they moved to manhattan-- she was soooo glad to get out of syracuse, where there's just about nothing to do (i know, my uncle lives there.) she's a nurse. we haven't talked since the wedding, 'cause she was honeymooning and now i'm too lazy to call back... but now i have a reason!

i've got to do some schoolwork (yes, at this hour) so i'll talk more later.

ps- did you see the "one church on marriage and sexuality" thread? (that was a trip.)

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Boddah,

you have no idea how glad I am to hear from you. Thank you for your kind and understanding words. Yes, I read some of the thread you referred to and was glad to read to hear your voice of reason about the whole gay thing...as well as about your gay friends. One of the scariest things about coming out is the fear that your same-sex friends will shrink from you in horror. I'm glad this isn't the case with you.

I'll let you go back to your work, but in case you stay for a few more minutes... I am SO sorry that I scared your mother by writing her. I had no idea it was a bad thing...I simply googled your last name and her email address was posted with her name and picture on her workplace website. I explained that I'd also left the church, and was really looking for you. I wondered if the reason I got no reply was that they wanted to remain in cognito. Jackie AD had told me several years ago that your folks had left the church...I knew better than to tell anyone. Anyway, please tell them that I never meant to cause them any grief, and I never told anyone about them. (BTW, Jackie and I are no longer friends...I'll explain privately. And yes, I do remember Carlos and Daniel well.)

As for your friend, I love her as much as ever, and still have all the notes she sent me when she lived in Budapest. I re-read them sometimes and wondered whether I'd ever see you two again. I understand if she does not want to get involved with Factnet, but please do pass my email address on to her. Manhattan is an exciting place...I was a camp counselor near there in 2002, and loved the city (though hated the camp).

All for now. Do your homework and get some rest.

Love you,
Lujza

(Message edited by melymbrosia on November 21, 2004)

[boddah (boddah)]

yeah, the best friend of whom we have spoken shrank a bit, i must say. but she's holding up. (i do have a bit of news i'll email you.) will pass along your email, she'll be glad i know.
personally, hate new york. it's got great "amenities" but every time i go there i get overwhelmed and start crying! we live in chicago, much more our speed.

mom knew you weren't a ggwo stalker, she actually wanted to respond when she heard you'd left the church, but was afraid someone would talk to you and find out... not that you would spill, but that they wouldn't let you leave until you at least leaked! i can't express to you the emotional crushing they were given when they left. i wouldn't be so unable to forget that place, if not for the impact it had on my parents. they're doing better now, finding out who they are, even. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

rest, in a pig's eye, for the next three weeks. i'd be half done with my projects by now if not for factnet!

love you too, lujza.

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Boddah,

You live in Chicago?? So does my aunt...she's 80 years old and totally cool with my being gay. She actually invited me and my partner Joy to visit her last summer, and we had a very nice time. I've told Joy about you and how excited I am to have found you--I think you two would really like each other. Do you think we could meet the next time we go to Chicago? Please send me an email so we can talk privately.

I'm glad to know your parents don't think I was a stalker or spy. I had left the church on my own back in 98, and they weren't after me or anything. I phased out gradually, mostly just hanging around the school, so they'd believe I was just a godless GGCA kid who went her own way like most of us did. I intentionally burned my bridges and didn't keep in contact with anyone after I graduated, except with Jackie AD (not anymore) who left GGWO after moving back to Canada, and very occasionally Hagi. Hagi goes swimming with my mother, so I get periodic updates about her from my mom; she's really my mother's friend, not mine anymore. I'll tell you more about all this later, but rest assured that I never mentioned your folks to either of these people, and I'm not in contact with them any longer. What Jackie said back then was actually an encouragement to me; your family was dear to my heart, and I was glad they had the good sense to escape. Anyway if you want you can tell them that I'm in Kentucky now, and have absolutely no contact with any GGWO people, so they can safely contact me if they want. If they do, I hope they won't have a problem with my being a lesbian episcopalian :-)

Speaking of which, I'm not one of those militant lesbians who think being bi is a cop-out. I personally have never been attracted to men, so I can't imagine being with one myself. But I believe in the psycho-sexual adage (was it Kinsey?) that everyone is bisexual somewhere on a spectrum; with some of us, like me on one end, and some others, like you, in the middle. I'm just glad that despite our repressed upbringing, we both had the chance to discover our sexuality and find our life partners. Joy and I are blissfully happy together, and feel very blessed to have found each other. I'll have to tell you that story, too.

Well, don't work yourself to death. And remember that the connections you are making on Factnet might help you in ways that school never could.

I am so, so glad to have found you.

Lujza

(Message edited by melymbrosia on November 21, 2004)

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Boddah,

Hope you got a lot of your schoolwork done. Last night we had a sweet lesbian couple from our church visiting us, and we cooked rakott krumpli for them--it was a big hit :-) Do you ever miss Hungarian food? Joy loves cooking Hungarian and speaking it, too. We just finishd our daily Magyar lesson, as we are planning to move to Budapest when I graduate. (Canada would come after our time in Hungary.) She's learning amazingly fast, although naturally has some fears about moving there. I wish she could get your perspective about what it's like there, although hopefully her experience will be much better! Oh, we have two cats too, and we're planning to take them with us! Now I'd better work on my paper on Zora Neale Hurston, for my Major Black Writers class. It makes me think of the time your dad wouldn't let us watch The Color Purple, remember? (I bet it was because of the lesbian content...)

All for now, have a good night. Take care of yourself and I hope to hear from you soon via email: nehrebeczky at yahoo dot com

much love,
Lujza

[boddah (boddah)]

how much do i love zora neale hurston? what other authors are you doing? if you come across rita dove, she's great. i like langston hughes, too. (that was one of my favorite classes. taught by a really tall black sci fi writer.)


i did get a lot of work done, but i've still got some, and dan's on the sofa saying "i hear typing!" so this'll be short. been hogging the laptop lately.

promise i'll email, this is just so convenient since it's bookmarked and i'm on another thread anyway.

so joy's being magyarized? of course i miss the food from hungary. you can't get good gulyas soup here for love or money. (well, maybe.) i have absolutely nothing against budapest, just some people i had to put up with. the city is great.

you have two cats too... did you know we have two cats? jake and maddy. we got them from the shelter on "the" september 11.

if my dad didn't let us watch the color purple, it was probably because the admin. was on his back as usual. he liked to thwart them, but didn't dare if they were watching too closely. he doesn't have such a high tolerance for discussion of gay issues, because deep down he still thinks he's supposed to call it sin. but he wouldn't hurt anybody's feelings about it or prevent kids from learning about how the world really works. he's big on kids making their own decisions, although i guess i was a little different since he had more control over what i "ingested" mentally. anyway, since carlos he's actually been pleasantly curious.

ok, dan's getting mad. talk to you later!

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Hi Boddah,

hope you're having a good day of classes! I'm having this women's studies class today that has to be the most boring class ever...it's for people who have never heard of Gloria Steinem. Fortunately, next semester it's going to get more challenging with women's lit. Damn these intro courses, they can be such a waste of time.

I'm sorry for pestering you to email me, it would just be nice to talk privately and call you by your real name and talk about things that might be too identifiable for public discussion. It would also be nice to exchange pictures--I haven't seen you for so long. Dan is right though, for trying to keep you in the real world! I remember when you were first dating him, we were having coffee at the Radisson hotel and you showed me his picture and rhapsodized about him. I'm so glad you wound up with him for good!

About my Black Writers class: it's taught by a lovely Kenyan woman who also teaches ESL and is very involved with the int'l students. We started out with Chinua Achebe and Things Fall Apart, a great novel brimming with the misogyny of the Ibo culture of Nigeria... Then we had an overview of African folklore and slave narratives. We studied African-American authors in the second quarter, including my beloved feminist warriors like Alice Walker and Toni Morrison. The final project is a group presentation about the Harlem Renaissance. I normally hate group projects, but as I could work on my chosen author, Zora, I'm content. I'm fascinated by her anthropological studies of Black folk culture.

I also love Audre Lorde and bell hooks--sadly they didn't fit into this course, hopefully they will in women's lit! hooks is actually teaching at Berea College near here. I almost went there if I hadn't got that scholarhsip, and am kicking myself now. But then, if I were there, I might never have met Joy. Yeah, she's being a bit magyarized, and loves it--what a concept!! I think you two would have much to talk about, even besides Hungary. She has a master's degree in Appalachian and women's literature, although working in health care right now. Oh yes, our cats are called Lola and Ralph, they are our babies. We dote over them to a ridiculous degree.

The Color Purple story went like this. I loaned the book to your friend who wanted something for a book report. This was in her very conservative period, and she absolutely hated it, what with women touching each other and all. I suggested that we watch the movie which was a lot less edgy and might give her another perspective on the story. Your dad actually checked it out from the American Embassy library, and I think borrowed a vcr so the three of us could watch it at your house. But he insisted on previewing it first, and that's when he decided to disapprove. I wasn't mad at him or anything, just thought it was funny to censor an entire movie for one lesbian kiss. By now of course both you and your friend have expanded your horizons...and maybe your parents too?

Speaking of fathers...do you remember my dad? He came to church with me very occasionally, and I lived with him for a while. I remember always worrying about him being "unsaved". I was very close to my dad since I was little....always been a daddy's girl. Unfortunately, he became very ill right after I moved to the States, and died during my first semester at college. He had been kind of a casual alcoholic all his life, and died of cirrhosis of the liver. His death shattered my world...it was the end of my Hungarian childhood.

Didn't mean to end on such a sad note, but it's so good to talk to someone I've known so long who remembers some of the same things from when we were much younger. Give my regards to Dan, I hope to see both of you in real life sometime.

much love,
Lujza

(Message edited by melymbrosia on November 22, 2004)

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

How was school, Boddah?

I just finished my paper about Zora. You can read it if you want, although it will probably sound dreadfully amateurish for such a writing aficionado as you. Speaking of which, once while trying to track you down online, I came across a short story of yours, from your college's website. It was about Italy...there was a man handing you a plate of olives. I must say, your descriptions are quite stunning. I've been lurking on the Spirituality in Art thread as well, and loved reading your thoughts.

You know, I've been thinking of your friend and her conversion to Judaism. That was the last thing I would have expected of her, she was such a little goody-two-shoes evangelical, totally devoted to the ministry. I remember thinking about her and hoping she had revised her views, little did I know how much! How is her little sister doing? I couldn't help but admire her for her resistance of GGWO. It's funny, Joy and her little sister remind me of our friend and hers. I liked what you said about our friend: that she "still loves the culture of the jewish religion, and calls herself jewish".

Did I ever tell you I used to attend a Jewish school? It was Lauder, I think they often had soccer games with GGCA. They kept hiking up the tuition and my parents couldn't afford it for more than two years (I had a scholarship at GGCA). But what I learned about Jewish religion and culture have stayed with me through the years. I loved celebrating all the holidays and learning Hebrew songs. I often thought Judaism was so much richer in celebration and ritual than Christianity. It would be so good to talk to our friend about all this.

Have a good night, talk to you later!
Lujza

(Message edited by melymbrosia on November 22, 2004)

[jeannie (jeannie)]

I just received word from a friend that someone I have been searching was been found. She is someone I dearly love, she has gone through some of the worst trauma since leaving TBS/GGWO. It brought me back to the memories of the beginning of this painful journey of leaving a cultic church. It brought back all the conversations and tears and confusion of not understanding why we were so traumatized. During this past year as I have found great support and healing through FACTNet, I constantly thought of her. She was probably the strongest and most vibrant woman I ever had the privledge of knowing through TBS/GGWO. She has an indomitable spirit, she is a fighter and a loyal friend. She stood by me in my worse estate. I owe her much. Yet Carl and company, the cultic system of GGWO, systematically tore this wonderful woman down. She was not afraid to question Carl and did on many occasions. She and her family eventually left and Carl slandered my friend and her husband. The rest is her story to tell and I hope she will.. She moved away and I have not been able to contact her, but I have been constantly praying for her and another mutual friend. During the time of my separation, we took a trip up north to visit another ex-member. I vividly remember each of us sitting outside the Inn we were staying at.. each of us sharing our painful experiences and seeking answers. There was great strength drawn from those conversations. We realized our experiences were similiar and we were not alone in our trauma and grief. We each knew we wanted to live a worthwhile life and fulfill our dreams even as we struggled with hurts and wounds.

I can't explain the process of healing and understanding that has gone on in my own heart through the support of the women(and men) on this forum. We all have shared experiences and we give each other hope. We also have received clearer understanding. It has validated so much for me. It has shown me that the trauma of spiritual abuse takes a long time to heal, the effects of abuse take deep root and understanding this, brings healing. I pray for this for my dear friend and others also who have yet to come to terms with what was taken from them through this cultic church. I am praying for so many like us that have suffered and sought answers alone. Who have struggled to re-build their lives alone. I am also overwhelmed with thankfulness when I hear of one more person able to reconnect with ex-TBS/GGer's because I know this reconnection brings healing for much of the trauma we pressed so far down just to exist in this life... Thank God for FACTNet!

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Jeannie!

Good to see you again, I've been wondering if you've had too much of factnet for a while... I'd love to get in touch with you, if you ever feel like talking about Hungary or anything, my email address is somewhere on this page. Your story reminds me much of my own experience in searching for and suddenly finding Boddah. After going to the same church for 7 years as teenagers, we were out of touch for almost as many, and I'd been trying to find her the whole time. I am so glad that she's out of the cult, but my heart aches to see her suffering. I love her dearly and want desperately to reach out my hand and help, and don't know how. For now, I'm just thankful that we're back in touch, and hope to see her heal over the years.

But Jeannie, lest I appear not to care about anyone else in this community...I do, it was just so overwhelming to have all these ghosts from my past reemerge at once. It was a particular pleasure to meet you, and hope to talk with you more in the future.

blessings,
Lujza

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

bump. Boddah, these things are for you. And I miss Lujza. Love you.

[karen (karen)]

Bob,

Where have you been? Boddah and I have been considering a search and rescue mission. We just haven't settled on the strategy yet http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Karen, Our computer is currently in the shop. I'm not sure when we'll get it back; maybe the end of this week. My daughter Jen got angry with me last time I went on her laptop without asking, so I've kind of held my breath. My son Dan has left his laptop down here tonight, and I should have access tomorrow morning; but my mail account is not open to me at present. If you want to mail me, try hotmail; but I'm uncertain as to how to get there from here. It's diagnostics at $45/per, and we're already over what's in our checking account. I am praying for you guys, and miss you like crazy.

[boddah (boddah)]

BOB!!!!!!!!!

so good to hear (see) your voice (typewritten words)!! yeah, karen and i had one foot in the helicopter, with binoculars and a really long rope...
love you love you

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Hi Boddah, Love you bunches. My hotmail adress is mbjbrinton@hotmail.com

I did find my way there since the post above. I'm thinking about getting a Yahoo account once the computer is back. The Verizon isn't accessible from the laptops. I must have a gazillion messages in it by now; or else they've all gone into internet limbo. I think about you and pray for you every day.

[isabella (isabella)]

Jeannie,

Thanks for that last post.

I think that since God really does reside in our hearts and gives his love to us, he also gives us a way to live.

How is it that we can be so happy and so sad at the same time?

That's how God made us, and he made us in his own image and likeness.

I believe that image is surrounded by compassion.

That's what you have, Jeannie. You have a "gift of compassion" and, although it's painful, it's a very beautiful gift.

Love and prayers,
Isabella

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

hello all (blushing)...

i'm so sorry i've been quiet for so long. i can't believe people here even remember, let alone miss me. i feel very touched that you all think of me even though i've only been here for a short time.

after spending time on factnet last winter, a lot of emotions got stirred up in me...i began having nightmares, and my partner was worried about me. i was struggling with a major depressive episode that fall anyway, and the ggwo flashbacks didn't help. i'm not completely out of the hole yet (can't sleep w/o meds), but much better than back then. i thought i'd poke my head in and say hello.

dear boddah, i miss you so much. i've been thinking about you and your parents and our friend often. in fact, i've recently dreamed about your parents twice...wonder what that signifies. please give them my love. tell your mom i'm working on a library info tech certificate!

anyway this is all for now, i'll probably come back periodically, especially when school is over in a few weeks.

much love to all,
lujza

[boddah (boddah)]

hey lujza!

of course we missed you.

wondering where you went... glad to hear you again. hi to joy.
ach, sorry to hear about the nightmares. when you feel up to it, email me sometime?

you're school's ending in a few weeks, and mine'll be starting... i'm on leave of absence this half of the semester, sort of an emergency rest-cure, and i'll start classes again during summer semester. i'm reading, taking walks, eating foods i like, watching movies, sleeping a lot- on doctors' orders, no less. going back early may.

i'll tell my mom and dad you're thinking of them (or, seeing randomly generated, vaguely linear images of them in your rem cycle?) http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[itsahokes (itsahokes)]

Hi Boddah, you came to mind this morning so thought I'd post to let you know. With all the hoopla surrounding the fall of the roman empire some of the ordinary conversation is muted.

Almost always I can identify with what you say even tho of course we don't have all the same interests You might or might not like to know that 25 years from now you may be thinking/feeling the same thoughts and feelings. The good part is that who you are today is refreshing to other people (like me) and the other part is that who you are in 25 years will still be refreshing (I can't say to me because I might not be around that long - what is the average life span anyway?) I was reading your comments on one of the rappers and since I have teenage daughters who are "unchurched" I'm familiar with some of today's music.

I did some research a while back on Eminem and while there is a lot about him I don't particularly like, he's had a lot to say, to address his perceptions of what's wrong with the world. I learn something from anyone who is open enough about themselves to admit they are screwed up and don't have answers.

Well, I certainly didn't sit down intending to write what I have, but there it is. My intent was to let you know I was thinking about you and how I think that in many ways you are living way closer to reality than most people can even imagine. They can't live there because they've never seen the place.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Remembering that this is a thread dedicated to Boddah I want to get it back into the groove with this.

Ode 2 to Boddah

The things from time to time you post of here,
Bring true insight to all who read far and near.
Although you profess a different belief than me,
Still God very often uses you to help me see.
So many things He would desire to clarify,
Truths so deep that not one of us could deny.
So keep on posting the truths from your heart,
For many on here they will make a great start,
Towards the goal of healing we so desperatly need,
If those words of wisdom from your heart we heed.

Blessings Boddah http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

[boddah (boddah)]

thanks itsahokes, ralph.
have been feeling more than usually down. factnet's a huge conversational outlet for me, and not much i want to talk about here the past few weeks.
maybe the empire will just freakin' fall already... ach, but then there's spoils-dividing to deal with.
anyway, thanks for remembering me!

[itsahokes (itsahokes)]

Boddah, I started posting this earlier but my service provider was not cooperating. There is something about you which makes me feel strange - not in a bad way, but in a way which makes me feel that sometimes I am still way out of touch with myself.

It's been on the back burner of my mind for a week or so that you were probably feeling left out. I don't know why I would be thinking of you since I do not know you. But this morning it seemed like a pressing matter that I would write something to you. It felt as though you must be lonely.

Earlier this evening on another thread I found something struck me in a hilarious way and I was literally laughing out loud all by myself. Then a short while later (just before my computer went down), there I was crying after reading your short little post here. I felt great heaviness of heart.

This is something about myself which is usually hidden, that I vascillate in a flash between being seriously serious and seriously giddy/silly. I have never understood this about myself and it has made me feel peculiar, out of place, weird.

There is something about you that makes me look closely at what really matters and it reminds me that whoever I was at 25, I still am at the core.
You seem like you are true to your self and I admire that a lot; it is a great burden to hide yourself.

I know your creative expressions are important to you and you need outlets. At this moment I'm feeling irritated with myself for losing the first post because I think it was better than this one, in that it more closely reflected what I was thinking/feeling.

Anyway, just know that your words are not going out into thin air and dropping onto the ground, as I feel most of mine do. Take good care.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Itsahokes,

I so understand what you are saying concerning Boddah.. it is why I started this thread back in November. I was afraid she was going to slip away.. I was afraid for me as much as for her..

love you Boddah... and really liking you a heck of lot too Itsa!

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

For Boddah - not intended for disection or doctrinal debate - I simply believe that it might resonate with you, Boddah...just thinkin' of ya, even tho' I don't know you.


"...our experience is altogether momentary.
From one point of view, each moment is so
elusive and so brief that we cannot even
think about it before it has gone. From
another point of view, this moment is always
here, since we know no other moment than the
present moment. It is always dying, always
becoming past more rapidly than imagination
can conceive. Yet at the same time it is
always being born, always new, emerging just
as rapidly from that complete unknown we
call the future. Thinking about it almost
makes you breathless." -- From "The Wisdom of Insecurity"

[boddah (boddah)]

itsahokes,
you were quite right yesterday morning.
was withdrawing anyhow, so decided to hide long enough so slipping away wouldn't be noticed. tactic's not so much working.

you know, i've felt like exactly the same person my whole life, and the only reason life's had these rollercoaster hills is my interaction with changing circumstances. of course, we all absorb changes, grow older, wiser, more stubborn, whatever... but seems i've got the same fundamental self that tells me, you're young, you're old, you're hungry, you're hurt, etc.

it's hard to hide yourself, it's hard to let yourself out... i think it's just hard, unless you're completely oblivious to yourself.

loveyou jeannie.

herroyalhighness,
funny, i was just reading an article on a similar topic... google "e-prime." it's scientific, so don't be daunted.
would actually like to dissect that, only have to go do all that little stuff that piles up.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Lujza, Hi! We've really missed you here. I hope you'll stay with us, or at least check in once in a while.

Our computer is back, though in low gear. I'll try to post more regularly. I've missed you all, and have no idea where 'things are at' in terms of the evil empire or who's currently in dire need of prayer. I have mail again, Boddah. I wrote you a short note, but don't think it delivered yet. Have to get my computer-geek kids to fix my mail.