What Is Beauty [Archive]

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-03-2004, 01:59 AM

They say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. This means that it is different for different people. We all know that outward beauty does not necessarily come from inward beauty. Someone who is hideously ugly can be very beautiful within. Beauty is not necessarily by sight; and yet there is a kind of beauty that is by sight. The other kind is better; beauty of heart; that which the Lord Himself looks upon and judges us by. Saul had the beauty of being a head above the crowd; but it was David's inward beauty before God that slew Goliath. It was a relationship to the heart of his Maker. Esther had both outward and inward beauty; but her inward beauty drove her to potentially sacrifice herself for her people. This inward is better.

I find beauty in things others might consider ugly; Shostakovich and Prokofiev, Franz Kafka and P.K.Dick. The movie, 'The Passion' is to me beauty in ugly terms. Death has great beauty to it when it is properly faced. There is a beauty hidden in the convoluted folds of mental illness. Our eyes need some stretching.

Joni; It bothers me that I remember your name so well without really remembering you. Sorry. I do remember you as Joan-ee rather than John-ee. Have I got that wrong? Should I remember you better? I was in Lenox from fall of 1976, and stayed with the followup church under John Gardner until about 1996-7, shortly after he left.

boddah (boddah)

12-03-2004, 03:52 AM

(who are "they?" i used to have a professor who blamed michael douglas for any movement with no clear originator...)

they also say that "beauty is as beauty does." i know that's a platitude used to manipulate children's (usually girls') behavior, but i always took it kind of seriously. to me, this means that if a person, place, thing, or idea is beautiful, it is acting in a particular way that overrides its more "ordinary" function and makes it "be" beauty. the old function is still visible, but beauty is how it translates to the accepting mind. this works for a sunset the same as it does for a certain arrangement of paper clips.
actually, it works for everything all the time, since someone is always looking.

this then relies on bob's "eye of the beholder." one of the reasons we have a category called "art" is that different eyes see different states of being as beauty. someone's eyes can be stretched, but i think that's more of an acceptance-appreciation thing-- give the person truth serum and ask them what they think is beautiful, and you'll probably get one of their original answers.
personal experience can change your sight drastically and permanently, however.

they say "you are what you eat," and that's fundamentally, literally true for life forms on earth. if you consume beauty, which you physically must in order to experience it, you should then radiate it proportionately.

i'm not going to get far into the god discussion, but so far we've covered
"i am" (if beauty is a state of being, a general "i am" includes it,)
"his eye is on the sparrow" (even if only one set of eyes is looking, a minute and humble thing is potentially beautiful,)
and "gigo" (being around spiritual things makes one beautiful, as opposed to being around things which don't pull their identity from the "i am.")

i guess in that last one, since everything can be connected to god at least through "compare and contrast," "ugly" for christians would be things affected by the fall (everything) seen by eyes that choose to focus for a time on the fallen? sometimes that's necessary as a life skill, but not meant to dwell on?
as for non-christians, they'd be on their own until they wandered into a way of thinking that made sense to them. who knows what they'd come up with.

anyway, to me, beauty is a chameleon. i'm equally likely to find a thing beautiful that makes me cry, as one that makes me smile.
that's absurd-- and the absurdity is comforting because beauty is so basic a concept. i've already come to the conclusion that the world is basically absurd, so seeing beauty that way reinforces my sense of grasping reality. i might not feel like reality is very stable, but at least i feel like i get it. (whether i am truly grasping reality, no one can say.)
beauty can be absolutely anywhere, just depends on the state of my "receptors--" not just eyes, the other senses and the imagination as well. (i guess the imagination is ultimately formed from things experienced sensually. but it's become a different creature by now.)

dave_drago (dave_drago)

12-03-2004, 04:18 AM

beauty is personified in my wife inwardly and outwardly.

dave_drago (dave_drago)

12-03-2004, 04:22 AM

the beauty of God is that He saves us from all our ugly sins, redeems us, places us in His kingdom and conforms us into the image of His dear Son. I don't know about you but I am looking for Him to come form heaven and then we will be as He is and we will behold Him in His beauty face to face...and we will know the Beauty of the LORD for all eternity, physically, emotionally and mentally. Come quickly Jesus come quickly
For His Beauty,
Dave

joni_fortin (joni_fortin)

12-03-2004, 04:25 AM

i like ur perspectives bob and boddah, if you had to pick one word or short phrase, what would it be to replace the word 'beauty'?

bob, you did pronounce my name right. i came to lenox in 1979, worked for pastor leonard, wrote the so called 'conspiracy' booklet, which is probably why my name is familiar to you. didnt you or ur wife work in the printshop? we went to start a church with the Byrnes'in Denver in 1985. i enjoy ur posts

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-03-2004, 04:38 AM

Anything in any way beautiful derives its beauty from itself and asks nothing beyond itself.

Marcus Aurelius

minutus (minutus)

12-03-2004, 04:46 AM

Bob, Shostakovich rocks! We played the finale from his 5th Symphony in high school band and I was hooked from then on. I love his tragic and ironic treatment of Soviet culture hiding hope for the eventual renewal of his people. My favorite composer is Rimsky-Korsakov with Ippolitov-Ivanov a close second, followed by Tchaikovsky and Mussorgsky. I'm also partial to late 19th/early 20th Century nationalist composers like Sibelius, Smetana, and Dvorak (a high point for me was visiting the graves of the last two in Prague.) Their compositions moved peoples toward freedom and national consciousness. One beautiful thing to me is the variety of peoples in the world, their differences in experience which all point to what makes us the same as humans created in the image of God. I long for that day before the throne when people from every nation, tribe and tongue praise the Lamb in eternally unique words and ways. What a testimony to the beauty of God.

boddah (boddah)

12-03-2004, 05:10 AM

joni-
one word or phrase.

i guess if i had to describe the feeling of beauty to a space alien with a loose grip on english, i'd say...

heartgrip freedom?

rj-
not sure i agree with marcus completely. sometimes complete humility and bereavement, asking everything beyond itself, is beautiful. it might not actually need it... but the asking means a lot.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-03-2004, 05:24 AM

Complete humility asks for nothing which is the heart of it's beauty and sorrow is not derived of itself at all. Though the fruits of sorrow are often beautiful true sorrow's depth of pain seldom is.

And yet, for Marcus, beauty defined is beauty beheld by one's perspective as is yours. He would not necessarily have agreed with your concept of beauty either...which, if you think on it from the blind perspective of the third non-subjective eye, is beautiful indeed.

boddah (boddah)

12-03-2004, 06:36 AM

rj-
i don't think bereavement is sorrow, necessarily.
although normally used in terms of death or deprivation, technically, bereavement just means being stripped of or losing possession of something. that could apply to anything. for example, dying is more bereavement than living on after a death, because in dying you lose everything (good and bad,) and living on you only lose the good of the person who goes.
i'm saying this because i don't believe in an afterlife (sorry, dave.)
i didn't mean that humility would ask to gain anything, so much as desire to be erased and absorbed into the cosmos (as it would in death,) if that makes any sense? it would then be asking for something, but that something would be NOTHING...
sometimes, in life, that seems beautiful to me.

also, can you tell me what the blind, third, non-subjective eye is?

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-03-2004, 09:57 AM

Joni; My wife Mary worked in the print shop, as did my brother David. I was an usher, and had sung with a group called The Finished Work during my Bible school years (76-79).

I would substitute for beauty: "that which would be desirable if I were 'experientially' perfect." So that if I could properly judge things in their relationships to other things; then my understanding of beauty would be more accurate. I suppose that this is looking for that impossibly objective viewpoint. Not very realistic. Perhaps beauty for me is what God gives me grace to desire without its being improper. And 'desire' can give wrong connotations. It's not about possession or control. There's part of me that rejoices in seeing a beautiful woman that is happily married to someone else. I enjoy seeing another person really click into who they are; even if it's something I don't inwardly relate to or have reason to interact with. Beauty doesn't depend on my gaining something from it. And you know what's cool? I often find the wrinkly faces of really old people to be beautiful; sometimes even people who were not so when they were younger.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-03-2004, 10:18 AM

In regard to Marcus; I think that beauty does want something beyond itself. I think it wants connection. Part of its purpose (at least for believers) is to impart itself to others. This brings me to something one of Boddah's posts above stirred in me. There's something in me that wants to take on the character of what I perceive to be beautiful. I want to inwardly assimilate it and then re-express it in varied forms and in various places. I want the percentage of beauty in the mix of both outward and inward realities to increase and overwhelm that which is not beauty. I love to go outside and be overwhelmed by a sunset or unusual sky. I like to feel as if God is deliberately putting on a display; as if I'm inside one of His paintings. I want to be part of His context in an increasingly accurate way.

The first time I did acid (fall of 1973), it shocked me how much detail and wonder there was all around me all the time. It still does when I pay attention to it. I wish that I were more grateful for this, and not so given to being weighed down by 'undesirable' details of life. I thought yesterday that if I could sell other people's complaints, I could make a fortune. They're so willing to share them.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-03-2004, 10:38 AM

Dave, I've been partial to the Russians ever since I had a second awakening to classical music in the early 70s. I picked up casettes of Prokofiev's 5th Symphony and Tchaikovsky's 4th, both conducted by Karajan. My tastes cover a wide range. Webern was a later window for me into a lot of the seemingly more chaotic stuff. He was a simpler and more direct way to appreciate atonality than Schoenberg. I always liked weird things (though weird isn't necessarily good); but Webern helped me get an inner 'understanding' of it, a sense of the kind of musical flow it can have. It's like reading a book that doesn't make any sense when you start, but which you start to perceive order in as you go. You become acclimated to the order that was there all along. It was a new musical language. It had nothing to do with a breakdown in order. It was order on different terms. It was learning to appreciate different intervals and harmonies than I had been raised on. And the oddities of Chopin became increasingly apparent in light of these gains. There's another 19th century composer named Alkan who wrote a lot of really odd piano music. The story goes that as an old man he died trying to get the Torah down off a shelf in his library. It may be one of those early urban legends, but memory tells me I read it on the back of an LP many years ago.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-03-2004, 10:48 AM

Bob and boddah

If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it is not something to argue about...had I known you would do so, I would not have quoted Marcus Aurelius to you. I regret having done so.

I leave you to your acid trips and absorbtions into the cosmos, as it were.

Ave.

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on December 03, 2004)

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-03-2004, 11:35 AM

Roberta, I don't mean to argue. I was just thinking out of the context of what you posted. A lot of these things depend on what angle you're looking at them from; and the conclusions can move around. And I don't use drugs. Haven't since early 1976.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-03-2004, 11:43 AM

I know you don't Bob

kathleen (kathleen)

12-03-2004, 06:07 PM

Dear Friend,

The Light that God has instilled in our hearts is meant to shine forth to brighten a dark and lonely world. We must always remember that we are ambassadors for Christ and as such we are to be the shining example of His love, care and forgiveness. When others treat us harshly and do not share simple consideration, we are not to take it personally, but rather see it as an opportunity to return good instead of evil. Jesus said it this way in
Matthew 5:38-39 &#8220;You have heard that it was said", "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.&#8221; We
have received mercy and forgiveness from of the Lord for our transgressions and as forgiven recipients we are to share that same mercy and forgiveness towards those who have done something wrong against us. We are to let our
light shine brightly in the midst of darkness where all who see us will
know Whom we belong to. (Matthew 5:16) (2 Corinthians 5:18-21) (Romans 12:14-21)

I hope you are encouraged by today's message to be kind and loving towards
everyone you come into contact with and allow your light to shine brightly
where others are changed for the better because of your living testimony.

TWO NICKELS AND FIVE PENNIES

In the days when an ice cream sundae cost much less, a 10-year-old boy
entered a hotel coffee shop and sat at a table. A waitress put a glass of
water in front of him. &#8220;How much is an ice cream sundae?&#8221; &#8220;Fifty cents,&#8221;
replied the waitress.

The little boy pulled his hand out of his pocket and studied a number of
coins in it. &#8220;How much is a dish of plain ice cream?&#8221; he inquired. Some
people were now waiting for a table and the waitress was a bit impatient.

&#8220;Thirty-five cents,&#8221; she said brusquely. The little boy again counted the
coins. &#8220;I'll have the plain ice cream,&#8221; he said. The waitress brought the
ice cream, put the bill on the table and walked away not saying a word.

The boy finished the ice cream, paid the cashier and departed. When the
waitress came back, she began wiping down the table and then swallowed
hard at what she saw. There, placed neatly beside the empty dish, were two
nickels and five pennies, her tip.

Author Unknown

We must always keep in mind that this world&#8217;s system is constantly trying
to make us think of ourselves and not be caring towards others. That is
the opposite of how God wishes for us to lead our lives. The Lord Jesus
tells us in Matthew 22:37-39 &#8220;Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all
thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first
and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love
thy neighbour as thyself.&#8221; I encourage you to think of others while you
go through your day and when you see the opportunity to be a blessing, see
it as a sign in which God can work through you to bless and brighten
someone else's day. The positive impact that we leave behind will be
remembered far longer than the time it took for that good deed to be done.
(Galatians 5:13-26) (Galatians 6:3-10) (Colossians 3:23-24) (Mark 9:41)

Please read and meditate on these scriptures:

John 15:11-13 Jesus says &#8220;These things have I spoken unto you, that My joy
might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. This is My
commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love
hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.&#8221;

Hebrews 6:10 &#8220;For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of
love, which ye have shewed toward His Name, in that ye have ministered to
the saints, and do minister.&#8221;

Psalm 37:23-27 &#8220;The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and He
delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down:
for the LORD upholdeth him with His hand. I have been young, and now am
old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging
bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed. Depart
from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.&#8221;

1 Peter 3:8-11 &#8220;Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of
another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: Not rendering evil for
evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye
are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. For he that will
love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his
lips that they speak no guile: Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him
seek peace, and ensue it.&#8221;

boss_martian (boss_martian)

12-03-2004, 07:32 PM

Bob,

Reality is for people who can't face drugs. Or something like that.......

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-03-2004, 08:07 PM

Boss, When I took drugs, it wasn't to escape reality. It was because they had whole other 'realities' to explore. I lived through about five years using them. I was never into the serious stuff. I do think that acid was a counterfeit for spiritual reality; and would never advise anyone to take it. Some people have really bad experiences the first time. God just had mercy on me and used it in giving me certain flavors. But He's the real experience.

boddah (boddah)

12-03-2004, 08:36 PM

rj-
i too meant no conflict. if marcus aurelius means a lot ot you, and you were just sharing that openly with us (as i think you were), i can see how blunt discussion could be hurtful. sorry if it came off that way, i've been living in the world of bob's exegeses! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

seriously, though, i didn't get the thing about the eye. is it something everyone else is familiar with and i missed it somehow?

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-03-2004, 11:23 PM

The quote about the "blind, third, non-subjective eye" is something I myself once wrote in answer to a fellow writer's question about self-edits. I do forget I am not yet a famous author that people know my "quotes"...*s*

Three eyes are what I employ when I edit/rewrite my own or anyone's work:

1. the narrative viewpoint
2. the antagonist/protagonist viewpoint
3. the 'blind to viewpoints one and 2" brutally objective viewpoint

I was having an especially "sensitive" day having recieved unwelcome news from my esrtwile physician...plus I am in love with all things ancient Roman, especially "Marcus".

Please ignore this fetal-curled thumbsucking child who too often screams above the noise, always to no avail...*s*

boss_martian (boss_martian)

12-04-2004, 12:18 AM

Roberta wrote:

"...plus I am in love with all things ancient Roman, especially "Marcus"."

Should I go back to being A Shogun Named Marcus?

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-04-2004, 02:04 AM

You know I love you no matter the name, dear man..*hug*

rem (rem)

12-04-2004, 05:56 AM

I think there be beauty in truth not in hurting

boddah (boddah)

12-04-2004, 06:49 AM

rj-
hope your health is ok...
we all have our sensitive days, believe me. i love ya.

i have a friend, a professor, who's also in love with all things roman. he just got a tattoo of that vitruvius man, in the circles in the box, and was writing a book about the history of roman architecture before he got busy doing whatever (you know how it goes.)
me, i appreciate aqueducts and highways, but could live without the whole emperor thing. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif i see too much of our own government there.

oh, cool eye concept, thanks for explaining!
take it easy.

jack_leonard (jack_leonard)

12-04-2004, 12:25 PM

When I think of beauty….

I appreciate Dave’s lead-off quotation. How we need to be reminded of and pointed to the beauty of the Lord on this message board! The great danger of any cult-watching group is that we become more and more like the thing we watch.

I used to imagine that I could fix the Lord in the throne room of my heart and focus on him and so find peace of mind and clarity of vision. Now I find that he drags all kinds of irreverent people into that throne room with him, which confounds and stresses me.

I find the faces of the teenagers whom I serve at my school. They are loud, profane, promiscuous, and rambunctious; what are they doing in the holy throne room? I find my wife’s abusive relatives. I find Bruce Moon, a brother of many years, who I am unable to forget… It hurts to have them there.

Paul talked about the people who occupied his heart: His friend Philemon (Phil. 1:7), the Thessalonian believers (1 Thess. 2:17), the carnal Corinthian church (2 Cor. 6:11), and the traitorous Israelites (Romans 9:2).

I want to go back to my little heart throne room, just Jesus and me. He brings all these guests with him and makes it clear that if they’re not welcome, then he’s not attending. Jesus comes with a fabulous entourage.

There is the body of Christ, the organs that remain on the earth and represent his interests around the world. I am startled by the reminder that some Christians I do not like nor approve of will be in Heaven with me. The garments of God give them beauty (Exodus 28:2, 2 Samuel 1:19, Psalm 90:17).

Then there is that gang for whom Christ died, those that he will not let go or abandon.

All these guests stretch and strain my resources. Get out! Somehow, being in proximity to the Lord, they are transformed. I begin to see them as Christ sees them. I see beauty where there was none. I see the power and potential of his redeeming blood.

I love the noisiness of FACTnet! Finally, there is a place where I have a voice! Here, I can ask the tough questions, confess my confusion or unbelief or doubts or fears, hunt down the truth, and push, press, prod, poke into the kingdom (even if the process seems violent). I can dialogue with others (unless and until they retreat from the fray). This is MY church.

We are not beautiful, but the beauty of the Lord is upon us.

nonotone (nonotone)

12-04-2004, 01:33 PM

Beautiful Jack!

Love in Christ,

Brian

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-04-2004, 02:03 PM

Some may howl at this a bit; but what if in heaven we still won't all think the same way? What if we'll still have individual perspectives all over the map, but without sin and able to respect everyone else?

I don't think arrival in heaven means immediately knowing everything. I think we'll continue learning things throughout eternity. I think our understanding will be more comprehensive and accurate, but that we'll still find ways to adjust to increased data. That we'll continue to find ways to refine and improve our approaches to things.

In a sense Jack, I feel this to be more my church than the one I attend on Sunday mornings. But wherever I go in the Church, that sense of 'irritable' elements always seems to be present. I know this is 'out of context', but last night I was at prayer with a few others and started thinking about the angel that came to trouble the waters in the pool. I was thinking about Karen and praying for her. And I thought that the deep troubling questions she raises are like that angel's actions with the water. I thought about how calcified we get and smug in thinking we've got answers for things, sort of like our old hangout. Sometimes we find we haven't honestly faced the real issues. I thought about how uncomfortable it would be to have Jesus rubbing mud in your eyes; but what if it meant you'd really be able to see something for the first time? I thought about how at times a bone needs to be rebroken in order to heal properly. I came to the conclusion that the trouble Karen brings here is not just for herself. It's for us all. And maybe I bring a bit here and there as well. I enjoy her and Boddah also. I don't want pat answers to everything; because I know there'll be lots of holes in them.

lee (lee)

12-04-2004, 02:14 PM

Beauty is........Karen's questions

Beauty is........Bob Brinton

Beauty is........Roberta's charge's

Beauty is........Jim's treatsies

Beauty is........Boddah's dark, prodding thoughts

Beauty is........Jeannie's compassion

Beauty is.......missing those that were once here

Beauty is.......Dave Drago's tenacity

Beauty is.......Boss Martian's lovableness

Beauty is.......FACTNet!

there's so much more.......you fill in the blanks

minutus (minutus)

12-04-2004, 03:24 PM

Jack, I think much as you do. David asked to dwell in the house of the Lord for the purpose of beholding His beauty and that house today is the church. It should be a place with relationships that both heal and challenge us as individuals to live beyond our own limitations through Christ and the help of others. Weakness is our strength. I guess maybe this is why I've seen more beauty among the homeless and in Baku than in the typical evangelical church, because people did not try to hide their weakness and desperate need for God in hard times. Their spiritual hunger was beautiful and the work of Christ in their messy lives was both taxing and energizing.

Bob, I liked what you said about growing in our knowledge for eternity. The experience of God forever will not be static, but dynamic and better than any drug (and I confess to knowing a lot about that subject). At His right hand there will be pleasures forevermore.

Karen and Boddah - keep hungering for Beauty.

nonotone (nonotone)

12-04-2004, 03:34 PM

... and I think what Jim Faucett shared about "Jesus Christ HIMSELF being our heavenly reward - NOT STUFF (i.e. ornatness of our "crown", size of our "mansion", priviledges to partake of "special raps" at the Tree of Life, etc.) is TRULY BEAUTIFUL!

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-04-2004, 03:42 PM

Yeah Brian, The Lord is our inheritance. The value of everything else is tied into Him anyway. He is the Light of the world. It will be surpassingly beautiful to meet Him face to face in all His glory. He is the Heart of Art, the Wholeness of Creation. What an honor it is to be loved by Him.

minutus (minutus)

12-04-2004, 04:35 PM

Anything in any way beautiful derives its beauty from itself and asks nothing beyond itself.

Marcus Aurelius

I'm not sure about the second part of Marcus' statement. Isn't beauty compelling, drawing us into the experience of it? This is most often totally spontaneous without our having been aware of it up to that point of connection.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-04-2004, 04:41 PM

*sigh*

minutus (minutus)

12-04-2004, 04:43 PM

As an example of compelling, I was switching channels recently and happened upon a broadcast of Shakespeare's Henry V with Kenneth Branagh. While I had no intention of watching the program because it was half over, I stayed for awhile because of the sheer power and beauty of the language.

karen (karen)

12-04-2004, 04:44 PM

Dave (Carson)-

Thanks for your words of affirmation. I have been so blessed by many of your posts.

What I love about FactNet is that I have gotten to see different facets of individuals--not just their Sunday faces. What I probably miss most about the ministry is the intense and intimate body life--though of course there were limitations on how honest we could be. But in the best times, I enjoyed heart relationships with many people whom I still love. Anyway, this forum has provided an unusual (and unanticipated) opportunity for forging new bonds with those who were connected only by common experiences. And the willingness of many to see me in Christ even though I am different from them is one of the most wonderful revelations of God's beauty that I have ever received.

-Karen

joni_fortin (joni_fortin)

12-04-2004, 04:57 PM

i love this thread! you all have expressed so eloquently from the depths of ur hearts what the 'beauty of God' is. jack, i see u havent lost ur touch. ur words made me think of a 5 yr old little girl who had a brain tumor and her parents were deaf. i remember her poor little body being blasted with chemo, her words to the doctors, with tears running down her chubby little face 'please no more, it hurts too much', the parents shell shocked like they had been dropped off in a foreign land, not knowing the landscape nor the language of this world of cancer. As my hands would fly communicating from the doctors to the parents, my heart would cry to God for 'mercy' in the midst of this ugly disease. perhaps that is what beauty is... 'God's perspective' in the midst of life's situations that i can't even wrap my mind around

minutus (minutus)

12-04-2004, 05:10 PM

Joni, your description of "the world of cancer" is compelling. I have a friend who is a pediatric oncologist and he came to faith in Christ as an adult through the testimony of dying children over years of practice. It brings to mind Bob's earlier statement, "Death has great beauty to it when it is properly faced. There is a beauty hidden in the convoluted folds of mental illness." I saw great beauty working at Avalon/Hillcrest with people who had no outside beauty and no capacity to reciprocate love.

minutus (minutus)

12-04-2004, 05:21 PM

Karen, I like your description of seeing people beyond their "Sunday faces." My greatest disappointment with church in general is the idea that the purpose of the Gospel is to make us "nice" people with our lives all tidy and successful. One of the things I appreciated about TBS/GGWO is that struggling folks who wouldn't make it in a "regular" church could become missionarys or pastors. The down side was that the ministry had a bias against helping people overcome their problems beyond attending services and listening to messages. That's how a lot of who I believe to be truly gifted men and women ended up destroyed or destroying others.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-04-2004, 05:38 PM

Dave, Your post above really strikes me. I'm thinking about how so many individuals within TBS/GGWO gave of themselves to those kinds of people who had nothing to give back. So many worked with troubled kids and mentally ill people. Fred Medieros is still in the area, and is still working in a school for kids that can't fit in elsewhere. God sees all these things. He knows all the time and prayer and self sacrifice that people in the ministry have put in or are putting in for Him and for those hurting people. And then I think how so many here seem to think their time under the GG banner was wasted. God may not see it precisely that way. Some people likely 'stay in' to do damage control for God rather than for 'the leadership'. We musn't judge everything by the surface.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-04-2004, 08:59 PM

My Beauty Full Poem

Beauty is not being a fundamentalist
Beauty is not voting republican
Beauty is staying home on Sunday
Beauty is being who I am
Beauty is not being who others want me to be
Beauty is loving ancient Rome
Beauty is the curve of the human body at rest
beauty is seeing through the bull****
Beauty is the jagged little pill
Beauty is ugliness retooled and regurged
Beauty is artiste angst overplayed
Beauty is one meadow more
Beauty is the moneky puzzle tree solved
Beauty is origami unfolded
Beauty is chaos uncharted
Beauty is insanity embraced
Beauty is 10 consecutive seconds without pain
Beauty is the scar tracks reminding me I'm alive
Beauty is whatever I say it is for me
Beauty is whatever you say it is for you
So, go be beauty-filled whoever you want to be and leave my beauty to be what I want it to be.

minutus (minutus)

12-04-2004, 09:20 PM

That speaks volumes of the hole in your soul, Roberta. Beauty is whether you like it or not and whether you see it or not. One of the greatest sins of our culture is the deliberate casting aside of the beautiful for the trivial and ugly. Hope triumphs when we catch glimpses of beauty, even in the pain. We share that hope when we catch those glimpses together. It's not my beauty or your beauty existing in isolated vacuum jars, rather a common heritage we have even as fallen creatures seeing through a glass darkly. I am hopeful because of what others have seen and shared. Hunger for beauty. Hunger for hope. Hunger for the victory of good.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-04-2004, 09:58 PM

The "hole in my soul"? *LOL*

Um, it is a poem, a parody, a writer's exercise in the negative, a creative writing exercise...

Dave, I am a writer who enjoys my craft and loves to exercise the absurd counterpoint, the opposite negative, the joy of word play. *Gasp* I happen to find that beautiful.

The hole in my soul....indeed. I do find it mildly amusing that no matter what I have posted on this particular thread someone has been critical of it ...how beautiful is that? Marvelous!

I do see from your last post however that had I spoken of the beauty of God and the salvation of fallen creatures, I might have fit in on you thread rather better. Oh well. Perhaps I have no ...what did you call it...."hunger for beauty"? Puhleeeze.

*s* oy vey.

minutus (minutus)

12-04-2004, 09:58 PM

Bob, here's a rousing SALUTE! (like they used to do on Hee Haw) to all those TBSers who love the unlovely before God for His glory alone in places like Hillcrest, etc. Despite the stupidity and cupidity behind the scenes in Schermerhorn, the little people represented Christ faithfully.

minutus (minutus)

12-04-2004, 10:00 PM

OK, Roberta.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-04-2004, 10:01 PM

You disagree, I am guessing.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-04-2004, 10:09 PM

Let me offer something more palatable...

STARS

Blowing across the heavens above
is the remnant of time drawn
forth from the stars for all
generations past and future.

The present stars beyond sight are
simple lights that have already
died death's last tremble
knowing the manmind will forget

Stars... portents of many
grand moments and terrible disasters.
Alexander, Caesar, Ptolemies unnumbered
knew fated ends from falling stars.

Pompeii and Rome fell to the silence
of ancient countless stars and moons.
Can we not think magi too would
behold news in the canvas over them?

Too fantastic a thing that a single
purposed star might lead men of peace
to a lowly place for miracles?
Man must believe what is possible.

Is it impossible for the universe to
not see all through the Creator's
benevolent eyes, thus use its own
light to lead us home to creation?

Who can say not? Who can say?
What if time at the time needed signs
to convince a people prone to strife of
a new idea in a new language of love?

Who can say the stars could not lead
high and low to a trough for animals
where lay a new thought, a new peace
a new reality of grace unknown to all?

Unknown till then to all but...The Stars.

Copyright 2002-2004 RJ Fernalld
Do not reprint without permission

minutus (minutus)

12-04-2004, 10:13 PM

Title: Argument Sketch
From: Monty Python's Flying Circus
Transcribed By: unknown

A man walks into an office.

Man: Good morning, I'd like to have an argument, please.

Receptionist: Certainly, sir. Have you been here before?

Man: No, this is my first time.

Receptionist: I see, well we'll see who's free at the moment.

Mr. Bakely's free, but he's a little bit concilliatory. No.

Try Mr. Barnhart, room 12.

Man: Thank you.

He enters room 12.

Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT?

Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that...

Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED EVIL PAN OF DROPPINGS!

Man: What?

A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS STUFFY-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!

M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!

A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!

M: Oh! Oh I see!

A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.

M: Oh...Sorry...

A: Not at all!

A: (under his breath) stupid git.

The man goes into room 12A. Another man is sitting behind a desk.

Man: Is this the right room for an argument?

Other Manhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gifpause) I've told you once.

Man: No you haven't!

Other Man: Yes I have.

M: When?

O: Just now.

M: No you didn't!

O: Yes I did!

M: You didn't!

O: I did!

M: You didn't!

O: I'm telling you, I did!

M: You didn't!

O: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.

O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.

O: Anyway, I did.

M: You most certainly did not!

O: Now let's get one thing perfectly clear: I most definitely told you!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!
(pause)

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

(pause)

M: It's just contradiction!

O: No it isn't!

M: It IS!

O: It is NOT!

M: You just contradicted me!

O: No I didn't!

M: You DID!

O: No no no!

M: You did just then!

O: Nonsense!

M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!
(pause)

O: No it isn't!

M: Yes it is!

(pause)

M: I came here for a good argument!

O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!

M: An argument isn't just contradiction.

O: Well! it CAN be!

M: No it can't!

M: An argument is a connected series of statement intended to establish a proposition.

O: No it isn't!

M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.

O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!

M: Yes but it isn't just saying "no it isn't".

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.

O: It is NOT!

M: It is!

O: Not at all!

M: It is!

The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.

O: Thank you, that's it.

M: (stunned) What?

O: That's it. Good morning.

M: But I was just getting interested!

O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.

M: That was never five minutes!!

O: I'm afraid it was.

M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....

O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.

M: WHAT??

O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five

minutes.

M: But that was never five minutes just now!

Oh Come on!

Oh this is...

This is ridiculous!

O: I told you...

I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!

M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are.

O: Thank you.

M: (clears throat) Well...

O: Well WHAT?

M: That was never five minutes just now.

O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!

M: Well I just paid!

O: No you didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I-dbct-fd-tq! I don't want to argue about it!

O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!

M: Ah hah! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH!

Gotcha!

O: No you haven't!

M: Yes I have!

If you're arguing, I must have paid.

O: Not necessarily.

I *could* be arguing in my spare time.

M: I've had enough of this!

O: No you haven't.

(door slam)

minutus (minutus)

12-04-2004, 10:15 PM

Nice poem, Roberta.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-04-2004, 10:19 PM

Thank you...I love Monty Python btw...genius comedy.

minutus (minutus)

12-04-2004, 10:22 PM

I was looking for the "Being Hit on the Head Lessons" part of that skit, but it wasn't included http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-04-2004, 10:29 PM

They slay me...spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam SPAM!

boddah (boddah)

12-05-2004, 01:19 AM

rj, minutus-
glad you stopped talking about holes in souls, like we don't all have them.
gloriously saved though you (anyone) may be, you're human and it's simply denial to pretend you don't have another side to you, the side that's crying down in a pit somewhere.
sometimes that part, called above "the hole," can climb out of the pit and do some writing, play around with with "dangerous" new ideas, have a nice beverage before it's pit time again. if so, good for "the hole."
some believe in condemning this side of their personality, or hiding it, or starving it into submission, or "giving it away" to a deity (aka, pretending they don't have it anymore). rj, you are brave and honest to embrace all parts of yourself, even the ones characterized by the "emptiness" of your awareness of human frailty.

guess i just brought it up again, sorry. got me riled, i guess, 'cause i'd like to get out of the pit once in a while myself and i think you're lighting the way, rj.

just got done watching a monty python movie marathon yesterday, while working on school projects.
i had a business class that i had to prepare a semester binder for, and i really wanted to put a series of pictures from "the ministry of silly walks" sketch on the cover. (the pix i found were too small, unfortunately.)

going to go pick up dinner, and perhaps a shrubbery for the knights who say "ni"...

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-05-2004, 01:33 AM

Ni!

boddah (boddah)

12-05-2004, 02:07 AM

this is what the hole in my soul says.

pink floyd, division bell, "coming back to life"

Where were you when I was burned and broken
While the days slipped by from my window watching
Where were you when I was hurt and I was helpless
Because the things you say and the things you do surround me
While you were hanging yourself on someone else's words
Dying to believe in what you heard
I was staring straight into the shining sun

Lost in thought and lost in time
While the seeds of life and the seeds of change were planted
Outside the rain fell dark and slow
While I pondered on this dangerous but irresistible pastime
I took a heavenly ride through our silence
I knew the moment had arrived
For killing the past and coming back to life

I took a heavenly ride through our silence
I knew the waiting had begun
And headed straight...into the shining sun

boddah (boddah)

12-05-2004, 02:13 AM

bob, you were talking about yearning on the art thread? that saturates the post above- maybe the beauty is, i never quite get there.

ani di franco, evolve, "icarus"

"just like icarus ascending
never intending to look back
nature's law and your tragic flaw
vying to send you flying into the arms
of another venus flytrap..."

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

12-05-2004, 05:22 AM

The Boy Who Laughed at Santa Claus
by Ogden Nash

In Baltimore there lived a boy.
He wasn't anybody's joy.
Although his name was Jabez Dawes,
His character was full of flaws.

In school he never led his classes,
He hid old ladies' reading glasses,
His mouth was open when he chewed,
And elbows to the table glued.
He stole the milk of hungry kittens,
And walked through doors marked NO ADMITTANCE.
He said he acted thus because
There wasn't any Santa Claus.

Another trick that tickled Jabez
Was crying 'Boo' at little babies.
He brushed his teeth, they said in town,
Sideways instead of up and down.
Yet people pardoned every sin,
And viewed his antics with a grin,
Till they were told by Jabez Dawes,
'There isn't any Santa Claus!'

Deploring how he did behave,
His parents swiftly sought their grave.
They hurried through the portals pearly,
And Jabez left the funeral early.

Like whooping cough, from child to child,
He sped to spread the rumor wild:
'Sure as my name is Jabez Dawes
There isn't any Santa Claus!'
Slunk like a weasel or a marten
Through nursery and kindergarten,
Whispering low to every tot,
'There isn't any, no there's not!'

The children wept all Christmas eve
And Jabez chortled up his sleeve.
No infant dared hang up his stocking
For fear of Jabez' ribald mocking.

He sprawled on his untidy bed,
Fresh malice dancing in his head,
When presently with scalp-a-tingling,
Jabez heard a distant jingling;
He heard the crunch of sleigh and hoof
Crisply alighting on the roof.
What good to rise and bar the door?
A shower of soot was on the floor.

What was beheld by Jabez Dawes?
The fireplace full of Santa Claus!
Then Jabez fell upon his knees
With cries of 'Don't,' and 'Pretty Please.'
He howled, 'I don't know where you read it,
But anyhow, I never said it!'
'Jabez' replied the angry saint,
'It isn't I, it's you that ain't.
Although there is a Santa Claus,
There isn't any Jabez Dawes!'

Said Jabez then with impudent vim,
'Oh, yes there is, and I am him!
Your magic don't scare me, it doesn't'
And suddenly he found he wasn't!
From grimy feet to grimy locks,
Jabez became a Jack-in-the-box,
An ugly toy with springs unsprung,
Forever sticking out his tongue.

The neighbors heard his mournful squeal;
They searched for him, but not with zeal.
No trace was found of Jabez Dawes,
Which led to thunderous applause,
And people drank a loving cup
And went and hung their stockings up.

All you who sneer at Santa Claus,
Beware the fate of Jabez Dawes,
The saucy boy who mocked the saint.
Donner and Blitzen licked off his paint.

HO HO HO...

boddah (boddah)

12-05-2004, 05:37 AM

jim are you still here?

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

12-05-2004, 05:40 AM

I am not in New York City.
I am not in Chicago.
If I am not in New York City and I am not in Chicago, I must be somewhere else.
If I am somewhere else, how could I possibly be here?

boddah (boddah)

12-05-2004, 05:43 AM

please talk to me, please talk to me, just say anything ok?

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

12-05-2004, 05:44 AM

somebonus@yahoo.com

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on December 07, 2004)

boddah (boddah)

12-05-2004, 05:50 AM

i tried to email don't know if it worked

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

12-05-2004, 06:00 AM

Ogden Nash...gotta love him!

Well, Jim...so, like, didja get the email I sent you earlier, or like what? *s*

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-05-2004, 01:22 PM

Boddah, I think maybe we've got lots of holes. The image of Jesus crying over Jerusalsm comes to mind. I saw the movie 'Five Easy Pieces' when I was 19, and not since. But I remember Jack Nicholson playing the main role, as a potentially great pianist who ended up just throwing his talent away for reasons I couldn't fathom. It seemed such a sad waste. We have relational holes that often seem unmendable, even with people we deeply love. We have holes between what we actually are and what we sense we could be. There are those holes down which most of our 'tax dollars' disappear, to be collected by the political side of the overall system of abuse. There's the hole or holes in people who want to abuse others; the places where their 'humanity' seems to be wholly lacking. There are holes in our understanding. Some holes can be good; deliberately left there so that the point is implied rather than directly stated.

I would say that God designed us to be partial; that together we're meant to be something that we can't be alone. That this is partly seen in marriage or in other kinds of groups. The Beatles in pieces never quite measured up to what they were together. Maybe U2 understands that and 'walks in light of it'. I think too of the way different branches of the sciences gained from each other when they were studied by the same people. Maybe we'd all be better off if they made more of an effort to work with each other rather than vying for government funding. Maybe our states and localities could gain something from that kind of an approach. There are degrees of it.

For the Church to have the impact it's supposed to have, we need to learn how to work together in the Spirit. It's not supposed to be a competition. It's not about control or pushing your particular agenda. It's about serving people. The Church is supposed to serve people, not use them and then cast them aside when there's nothing left. I know this isn't your ground, Boddah. I'm addressing this also to others because it's part of mine. I'm sick of people being damaged by what's supposed to help them; by their being spiritually and financially raped in what's supposed to be 'safe harbor'. And you're one who has been damaged this way. It's not right, from the viewpoint of those who believe or those who don't. It's like using ice cream to poison someone on a hot day.

boddah (boddah)

12-08-2004, 01:46 AM

ok, quite the weekend.
love and thanks to jim faucett for getting me through it.

bob-
i think medicine would definitely benefit from more interaction between sectors. seems like a rapidly growing body of knowledge supports specialization, though. true in other fields as well. still, maybe eventually there could be a specialization in combining parts of fields, or fields themselves?

being made to be something together that we can't be alone:
there's a sherri s. tepper book, "six moon dance," that i really should read again so i could tell you more, but it involves a world colonized by earthlings on which certain people (possibly a third gender?) are shunned by society because they have a strange inborn artistic ability.
turns out that there are these immense space pterodactyls that lay eggs in the volcanic core of the planet once every few centuries, but when they get there they don't know how to go about laying eggs, because they live isolation in deep space. a female meets a male literally once in a lifetime. two of them are in the planet's core freaking out, because they're internally wired to go there but don't know what to do. they may destroy the planet by accident in their distress.
the point is, the strange ability of the third gender turns out to be a function of the planet- some humans mutated to have this special ability so that those people could go to the space birds and show them in dance sign language (kind of like cheerleading pyramids only exotic?) how to reproduce. thus the untouchable caste saves the planet, and a space bird from extinction.
i was a little disappointed with the bizarre ending after reading what was otherwise very solid fantasy, but it had striking (if blatant) meaning for us earthlings.

also, if you're not terrified or disgusted by descriptions of "witchcraft" in its modern usage, there's a really good book called "truth or dare" by a woman named starhawk. pretty much about power relationships on both individual and governmental levels, and how they should be changed in favor of working together...true democracy, every person having a say, which would mean breaking up into much smaller groups and doing a lot more work for ourselves, which would then be combined as well as possible for the governing of several groups at once. you might say, that's kind of what we do with states, but she means much smaller groups, and much much different relations among group members.
has a lot to do with the holes down which tax dollars go, and how those holes and many others are caused by inherited holes in our perception.
i guess you might not enjoy it, but i did.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-08-2004, 11:18 AM

Perhaps there could be people who specialized in combining fields or sciences, just as certain musicians seem to be particularly good at it (Yo Yo Ma, Edgar Meyer, John McLaughlin come to mind). Trouble is getting the specialists to see that someone who's not a specialist may see things they don't about their own field and effective ways for it to interact with others.

The Tepper book sounds interesting. Artistic people often seem to be considered a threat by systems everywhere. I would say the threat is legitimate and necessary. There are ways the arts get at truth that others want to keep under the appropriate rugs. And I can relate really well to the idea of artist as martyr.

I'm not sure I know what modern usage of the term witchcraft means. I would say that a lot of what some call witchcraft is not. The Potter books are not about witchcraft; and the Christian alarm over them is ludicrous. My mother was involved with the occult before she became a believer. I know there are spiritual realities that are not 'of God'. People do well to steer clear of these in terms of what influences them. Astrology, as practised by the really serious and gifted student of it, is a lot more accurate than most Christians believe it is. But it is also misleading and designed to control those who follow it. It's another system of abuse. It's about money and power and influence; all carried out under a layer of seeking to do others well and learning a lot of things 'most people don't know'. And the spiritual powers behind it delight in destroying their adherents. It's 'nice' to be able to just write all this stuff off as being imaginary; but denial doesn't change reality. The interesting thing is that 'the other kingdom' uses such similar tactics both within and outside the Church. It uses them in government, business, the arts, etc. It's really rather boring. 'If you don't draw your lines this way, you're not a true artist'. You're not hip, up-to-date, cutting edge. What a bunch of nonsense. The best art transcends its time period. Van Gogh is still shocking. Mapplethorpe is not; not artistically. Shock only for the sake of shock is boring. When shock becomes normal, it's no longer shocking. What good is having a surprize ending for every single story you write? Holy digressions, Batman; we sure do wander about in these discussions.

boddah (boddah)

12-08-2004, 08:49 PM

bob-

true, it will be difficult to get specialists to see that others might have insight they don't. that difficulty even applies to professors who aren't necessarily the "top" in their subject-- if you debate too much they can start feeling invalidated, and get snarky on you. had that happen a couple times.

yeah, so basically starhawk's witchcraft (some would say neopaganism, she wants to "take back" the word witch) involves a lot of astrology, tarot cards, and spells (although never to do things to people against their will.) that's the main difference between the "new" definition and the traditional- "new" witches are never supposed to manipulate others for their own benefit. it's supposed to be all about wholistic thinking, interconnection. but tell that to a thirteen year old with a crush on someone unattainable, or a person who thinks they deserve a raise they're not getting...
all you mentioned about the occult, i can see. the reason i liked reading starhawk's book is that she is an energetic but strictly nonviolent political activist. in fact, her entire concept of what government should be is nonviolent. i know that given what people are, a nonviolent end is not likely, but for me it's a very different, somewhat nice thought.
i hesitated to even bring her up because it's natural that you (or any christian) should immediately fear that i am being led down the path to the new age movement.
my dad is what you might call vehemently anti-new age. i learned about that stuff from the cradle. avoid avoid avoid avoid avoid. i think the first step in my growth as a spiritual individual was the day i stood there at borders in front of the metaphysical/new age section and said, all right, i'm sick of hiding under a rock so i'm going to see what this is. i looked at the satanic bible, i looked at books on psychic phenomena, i looked at books about everything i wasn't "supposed" to.
most are either just crap or are really glorifying aspects of humanity that should not be glorified (the satanic bible is literally all about selfishness.) the only ones i'd recommend are starhawk's "truth or dare," or her reclaiming community's ( that's where she lives in san fran.) "circle round," a book about raising children in neopagan tradition.
i don't recommend these so anyone will desert christianity. i don't want you to go out and buy ritual supplies for your kids. i just personally think starhawk has some valid (if utopian) political points. "circle round" was fascinating to me because it was sooooo alien to what i had been taught as a child. things like menstruation and sex were not glossed over, they were dealt with honestly and celebrated as part of life. the goddess fables in between were recognized as fables rather than some kind of absolute truth, and all had the effect of raising children's self-esteem. completely foreign.
had a feeling if i used the "w" word i'd end up explaining this but that's ok.

since we're on shock for shock's sake, marilyn manson is a good example. (did you know he went to a christian dayschool that played soccer against the school at which my dad taught for a couple of years?) anyway, he's kind of over because he's running out of ways to shock. there was more to his music than that, just like there's more to mapplethorpe's art than sexual innuendo... but that's not what's marketed, you've got to look for it. even then, it might not be worth putting up with all the shock packaging.
also, never liked o henry because of his surprise endings- came to expect them and felt like i was being set up all the time!

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-09-2004, 02:01 AM

Boddah, I can relate to what you're saying. I'm not intimidated by the witchcraft/new age stuff. A lot of it seems overbearingly sentimental. I'm someone who doesn't like things to be 'cute'. My Mom recognized that a lot of the people in the occult were just airheads, and basically at the mercy of those who were more serious. Unfortunately, Christianity is very similar. Most people don't think and assess things; they just imitate and follow. I've tended to go after things (like Potter and The Last Temptation of Christ) that I've been warned about by people who don't read or watch them. Oh; 'The Exorcist' was another one. Often these things are not as bad as they're portrayed by Christians to be.

boddah (boddah)

12-09-2004, 07:34 AM

they do tend to market the new age stuff to women, with a lot of pink and purple and love potion this and that. or to goths, with a lot of black and silver and power potion this and that.
you're right when you say that in general people don't assess what's in front of them.

about potter,
easier to manipulate a large number of people if there's a rallying point, something they can all work against together. torches, pointed sticks, "kill the beast" etc. if only they'd work *for* something positive all together, for once.
i love harry potter like i've loved no other series since tad williams' "otherland" books.

the exorcist makes dan laugh every time, but it makes me cry-- it's not the hokey effects, but when she's slamming the crucifix against her thighs and yelling at the little body and laughing, i really feel that. i'm so scared for the little girl.
never saw the last temptation, but i kind of want to now because willem dafoe was such a great vampire in "shadow of the vampire." did you see that? he plays a real vampire who gets cast in a vampire movie, and actually starts draining blood from the cast, but the director (john malkovich) doesn't stop him 'cause it's such good film. he ends by eating the director (hubris, etc.)
i do like m.python's life of brian, though... first time i saw it i was really angry, same as the first time i saw jesus vs. santa on south park. then over time i started to see the humor.

had a song i wanted to put up.
part of the theme to hbo's "the sopranos:"

"when you woke up this morning everything you had was gone,
by half past ten your head was going ding-dong,
ringing like a bell from your head down to your toes,
like a voice telling you there was something you should know.
last night you were flying but today you're so low--
ain't it times like these that make you wonder if you'll ever know
the meaning of things as they appear to the others:
wives, mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers...
don't you wish you didn't function,
wish you didn't think
beyond the next paycheck and the next little drink...
well you do, so make up your mind to go on,
'cos when you woke up this morning
everything you had was gone."

kathleen (kathleen)

12-09-2004, 09:58 AM

One thing I have asked from the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to inquire in his temple.

Psalm 27:4

I so do not like the things that have been going on. I want to ask friend or foe? I cannot explain what in the world is going on. Don't plan on anything but the word of God going to all nations. Have read some terrible things that people write and I really don't wish to meet any of these people that want to relocate. I a'm sorry
Please if they have attacked once then they will attack again. All I pray is that my God will keep us all..... Put a protective hedge around and about. " A Daughter", I hope you've heard of a poem a poem.....
God Bless and keep you always:

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-09-2004, 10:25 AM

Boddah; I haven't seen 'Shadow of the Vampire', but I like both Dafoe and Malkovich. I love 'Life of Brian'; especially the prophets scene.

I'm up late and dragging this morning. I'm going to go crawl through the other threads. I may not have a lot to say.

boddah (boddah)

12-09-2004, 07:44 PM

i, also, drag. in school at break now, three hours sleep, no chance of catching up on my work. listened to this walking here, always reminds me of the ol' ggwo.

sinead o'connor, faith and courage, "you're jealous:"

You're jealous
You just can't stand to see me get along without you
Like I do, you told me to

Now you're jealous
You don't know how hard it was to be alone without you
And wanting you, like I do

I would've stayed if you'd wanted
would have been willing
But you said I treat you so badly
I can't be forgiven
You know I would have done anything
To make it through with you
But I don't deserve to be lonely
Just cuz you say I do

You're jealous
You don't know how hard it is to be a woman in love with you
When you're so cruel, and so jealous
You don't think about anybody's feelings but your own.
Are you coming home?

I would've stayed if you'd wanted
Would have been willing
But you said I treat you so badly
I can't be forgiven
You know I would have done anything to make it through with you
But I don't deserve to be lonely just cuz you say I do

So if you're gonna go you've got a go and if you're staying stay
Cuz I can't take the pain you keep leaving when you go away
If you're gonna go you've got a go and if you're staying stay
Cuz I can't take the pain you keep leaving when you go away

I don't deserve to be so lonely
I don't deserve to cry
I don't deserve to be so lonely

ps-
actually uplifting, no?

minutus (minutus)

12-09-2004, 08:14 PM

On an earlier subject, the substitution of shock value for creative beauty these days reminds me of a passage from the second book in C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy. Satan walks along a beach, picking up small creatures that have washed ashore and absent-mindedly tears them apart to pass the time. It is infinitely easier to destroy music, art, culture and lives than to create them. While Van Gogh was shocking in a sense, his heart was thirsting for beauty in the messy world in which he lived and he could see it in the ordinary which so many ignored. Another person considered shocking was Jack Kerouac, but his whole tragic life was a hunger for beauty.

boddah (boddah)

12-10-2004, 04:12 AM

minutus-
we had to do a few papers on beatniks at school (college.) the thing i had drilled into my head was that they were looking for "it" and no one knew what "it" was or ever found "it." i had just straggled out of ggwo and immediately thought "it" must be god, or worse, a god-substitute... so i got depressed and stopped reading beatniks. have to admit i still don't like kerouac, but sylvia plath got some inspiration for her later works from the beats, so i let that count...
guess you think "it" was beauty? which you also think is a god thing? interesting, i never thought of that word to put in that slot. i don't think you're far off.

it is easier to destroy than to create a complex orderly work, but it's harder than people think to destroy just enough for it to fit the situation. i think we were talking about outdoor installations earlier, made to be destroyed. also, i think destroying certain items to an extent and displaying the pieces highlights the cleverness that went into making it to begin with. for instance, i love looking at abstract sculptures etc. made of microchips and broken computer pieces. also saw a really cool psychadelic work made all out of different pills. also a piano cut in half.

for me (dan too) there's something about certain musicians, not all, who smash their instruments at the end of a performance that's just gripping. cheesy metal bands do it and it looks cheesy. nirvana did it, and you knew inside that they were just on the crest of this immaterial thought-wave and it was exploding out of them like fireworks. i guess the destruction has to come from the right place to feel real, even purposeful? that's one of the few times actual destruction can be beautiful.

most "destruction" art is so planned that it kind of isn't destruction anymore. there's this person (forget the name) who puts a giant pile of candy in the corner of the art museum and the sculpture is just the pile getting smaller and smaller. or this person (forget name, you see where my weakness lies!) who made a video installment of his own hands pulling apart a piece of clay into little shreds and sweeping them off-screen until there was nothing left, then reassembling it and so on.
one thing i hate is artists who laboriously make things look destroyed, like when pottery barn "distresses" its wood to look antique. it's always painfully obvious, pretentious.

a lot of the most shocking movements in art have been made in order to get more of the human spirit involved in the process, as opposed to the ancients who had specific numbers and rules for each movement they made. artists needed to take apart the old to reassemble it into the new, they had to shed the old context to blow people's minds. which is why people thought impressionists painted like children, and cubism was heresy. the dada movement was the culmination of all that, i think. art had been disassembled so far that they just said hey, pick up a random piece of anything and there you go. then we started moving back toward the order we'd gotten away from, 'cause what other path was there?
cycles, cycles.

lee (lee)

12-10-2004, 02:40 PM

Boddah, Do you have any idea where you are going with your art? Can you define it yet?
I have found it most difficult to settle down into one thing. I made myself stay with oils because it is where I find most passion but I learned so many things about artists and movements, I admire some alot and then learned from a painter in Ptown (color theory) At my age, I don't think I can define exactly where I'm going or who I am. Some say its a matter of finding your voice.....
Perhaps this is my own creative cycle speaking.
It's quite a 'career path' I've chosen! As artists we have to do all the jobs.....marketer, presenter, photographer, writer, manager.......this part often paralyses me. Then, to make a consistent living, we often become teachers, waitresses, or like me a floral designer....takes up massive amounts of time and energy.

boddah (boddah)

12-10-2004, 10:11 PM

lee-
well, i know that i suck at oils. much better at acrylic- but expressive better, not so much salable better. if i make art with the intention of having it be meaningful, i usually write. if i make art unintentionally, just letting something out, i usually write. but i'm so connected to the writing that i'm petrified it won't be well-received. i would take that as a very personal rejection. i don't feel like it's a work of my voice, so much as me on the paper. it might as well be blood as ink.
interior design for me is like you said- marketing, presenting, photographing, managing, and hours of tedious drafting, along with the fun part (concept, color, rendering, choosing materials.) i love the art part, and the math part makes me feel like it's "real" work. and if someone doesn't like the living room i made up, i can make up a new one, there's no abiding truth that makes that the only living room i can honestly do.

my mom keeps asking my dad to write a book about having been in ggwo, since before he was a missionary he was an english major like me. he says he doesn't want to, and she wants to know if it's because he can't find his voice. she asks, do writers write because they're driven to by an inner voice, or because they sit down and make themselves get started?

neither, i think. i think if you're going to make art, you just do. you don't always hear the voice if you even have one, but that doesn't mean you can't channel art into a medium. self-awareness isn't a prerequisite. sitting down and forcing it isn't going to make the art any good. if you're on the beach and you're going to make art you swirl the sand, if you're in jail you scratch into the wall- maybe these things plant the idea that you should make something more planned or lasting, maybe they're satisfactory to you as is.
"it all depends." such a clear answer!

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-11-2004, 01:20 PM

I'm on my daughter's computer here, a laptop; and it's awkward. Ours is tangled up for the last couple of days with my son attempting to install Panther. Hopefully he'll be able to break through on it today. After this post I'm getting off here and may not be back for a while.

Do you ever feel like selling your art is a form of prostitution? I've always had problems with the idea of trying to produce things to suit someone else. There's a sense in which I don't think that's what art is for. I haven't done anything in years, but my wife recently bought me some acrylics and washed off my dust-ridden colored pencils. I'm going to put them in order today. But it's been so long. I have to get reaquainted with my colors and how they work. I don't want to try to paint without starting back drawing first. I need to re-establish a feeling for what I can find. Christmas break should help.

Part of my thing is that I consider the space in art to have just as much substance (and sometimes more) as the non-space. Implication and hinted at realities are my sought hang-out. And the idea of connections that aren't always immediately perceivable. Art out of mess.

A little break here for a spiritualism. Yesterday morning as I prayed, the Lord told me that He uses people who are wrong to do right things. This has profound bearing on our tendencies to drift into camps. The Lord uses people who are wrong thinking from our perspective to adjust us and move us where He wants us. We need people from all over the spectrum to influence what we are. We are a spiritual fruitcake of varying flavors. God bless us every one. Love, Bob

minutus (minutus)

12-11-2004, 04:20 PM

Boddah, could you check with your dad and see if he knows me (Dave Carson) since we were all over there about the same time? If he wishes, I'd love to hear from him at minutus@gte.net.

boddah (boddah)

12-11-2004, 06:28 PM

bob-

i do feel like it's prostitution sometimes. it was nice to be published (i was once) but there was this vast feeling like, oh my god, for five hundred dollars anyone with a copy of that can a) see inside me and b) misinterpret it.
design is different, because the whole point of interior design is programming-- the stage where you stick to the client like glue and ask a thousand questions to make sure the design is for them, not you. it's kind of like lending out your artistic ability, rather than selling something you love for yourself.

space, hinted-at reality, "hang out-" you sound like a sculptor.

minutus-
sure, i'll ask. please don't be offended if he doesn't email though... first of all, he doesn't really use a computer, and second, there are so many that he loves and doesn't speak to any more, just because for him it's kind of all or nothing, a clean amputation, so he doesn't just keep feeling terrible. the only one i know he did speak with was a dear friend whose husband had died of cancer, but that's about it and even that was relatively short...

minutus (minutus)

12-21-2004, 06:57 PM

Nice thoughts from Douglas Wilson's blog on Psalm 27:4

"But the beauty of the Lord must be triumphant. An essential part of beauty is found in combinations and harmonies. A monolithic anything may be initially impressive, but at some point it begins to get boring. This is simply another way of saying that beauty is trinitarian. We find this ultimate reality as we hunger to be like God, as we thirst to find ourselves in the midst of His righteousness. The beauty of holiness is wild, exciting, dangerous—and easy to misunderstand and misrepresent. The ultimate issue for anyone who wants to live in this world in a right relationship with God is that we must be like Him. And the only way to be like Him is to be in Him."

http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

12-22-2004, 10:26 AM

A 'monolithic anything'? Sounds like a great name for a new ministry. "Y'all will find SOMETHING in us to relate to." And don't forget your 'tithes and offerings'.

kathleen (kathleen)

12-23-2004, 07:34 AM

Dear Friend,

As Bible believing Christians, we are to have confidence in the strength and ability of the Lord. In Him is only perfect peace. Nothing ever worries God or catches Him by surprise because our God is omniscient. The Bible declares that God knows the end from the beginning. There are many people in this world who choose to worry about situations in their life rather than giving your worry to the Lord and trusting in His wisdom to resolve that situation. The Prophet Jeremiah declared in Jeremiah 32:17
&#8220;Ah Lord GOD! Behold, Thou hast made the heaven and the earth by Thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for Thee.&#8221; Be encouraged to trust the Lord and know that in Him is perfect peace that surpasses all understanding. (Isaiah 46:9-10) (Psalm 56:9-13) (Phil. 4:6-7)

I hope you are blessed and encouraged today.

SNOWFLAKES

Napoleon was the greatest general of his day and one of the greatest of all time. He was also an astute politician with an unconquerable will to win. His goal was to rule the world and he seemed well on his way to achieving that goal.

History records how he boasted, &#8220;Russia next, then Britain, and Napoleon shall rule the world.&#8221;

When leading his army en-route to conquer Russia, one tiny snowflake fell on Napoleon, &#8216;Then another, and another, and another, and they kept on falling until Napoleon's proud army was reeling back, broken and defeated&#8217; not by an enemy's army nor even a single shot, but by a mass of tiny snowflakes.

Napoleon's response? &#8220;God Almighty was too much for me.&#8221;

By Richard Innes

The next time you are tempted to fear the enemy or worry about a situation in your life, remember what the scripture declares in Proverbs 18:10 &#8220;The
name of the LORD is a strong tower; the righteous run to it and are safe.&#8221; He is our shield and buckler and nothing by any means can harm God's elect.
Encourage yourself in the strength of the Lord and know that He is with you even in the midst of the storm.

Be strong and show your confidence in the God who created you and know that in the end Victory is promised to come.
Precious promises.

Read, meditate if you will on these things scriptures:

Psalm 61:1-4 &#8220;Hear my cry, O God; attend unto my prayer. From the end of
the earth will I cry unto Thee, when my heart is overwhelmed: lead me to
the rock that is higher than I. For Thou hast been a shelter for me, and
a strong tower from the enemy. I will abide in Thy tabernacle for ever:
I will trust in the covert of Thy wings. Selah.&#8221;

Psalm 91:1-4 &#8220;He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall
abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the LORD, He is my
refuge and my fortress: my God; in Him will I trust. Surely He shall
deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
He shall cover thee with His feathers, and under His wings shalt thou
trust: His truth shall be thy shield and buckler.&#8221;

Psalm 34:17-19 &#8220;The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth
them out of all their troubles. The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a
broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. Many are the
afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.&#8221;

All of these scriptures can be found in the King James Version Bible.