The Rome Declaration posted in full

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

W don't have access to typed-out or word-processor files of this declaration, but have located .JPG image copies of the entire four-page document. We have uploaded it here: http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com for everyone to see.

This is a very interesting, and very precise disclosure of the position that Rome is taking on this situation.

OTP and Shat

(Message edited by OrangeTwoPay on April 26, 2005)

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Thanks for posting that on Liquid Waves.

They hold on to Stevens because they desire an idol. It's nothing new.

And he [Aaron] received them [the golden earrings] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
-- Exodus 32: 4 (KJV)

[shat_happens (shat_happens)]

Not exactly, they are breaking away from Stevens but only wish for a true repentance on the part of Baltimore, and it was stated that if such repentance does come they will not being going back but do everything they can to help them move forward.

[shat_happens (shat_happens)]

The only reason we are posting this, is due to folks asking about it. It has been stated by Rome that everything they do will be open to the public, anyone who asks can get copies of whatever they need. We felt it best to post the whole thing at one time rather than have people posting what they think they read, or think they heard.

Someone was going to post it at some point anyways!

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

I was referring to those that still exalt Stevens, in spite of evidence such as the letter you posted.

[daved (daved)]

In his message on Sunday morning, April 24,2005 Pastor Schaller mentioned the subject of affiliation:

snip/snip

<font color="ff0000">>>>
We sense it and feel it in the authority of the Holy Spirit,
that these are amazing days here in Baltimore.

And by the way I would like to have,
as we said earlier,
that we will have open forum meetings.

And we are organizing our next one,
and those will be a lot of fun and useful and very informative.

And, one theme that I would like to really address very soon
is the subject of affiliation….
because as you know,
perhaps you have heard,
that some of our affiliated ministries are changing their names,
or making readjustments regarding their relationship with us,
and with the ministry in general.

And so in some detail we can address that,
but just for now very briefly I would like to encourage you to know
that these people are in our eyes and in our minds are really our brothers and our sisters,
and they are to be respected as local assemblies.

We are praying for them,
they love us, we love them,
and there is no need for us to live in any strife,
to sow any discord,
but to love them, and to pray for them,
because this is a difficult time for our affiliated pastors in some parts of the world,
particularly here in the United States, it seems.
>>></font>
snip/snip


daved

(Message edited by daved on April 26, 2005)

[lee (lee)]

Thanks for being willing to transcribe those letters. My old eyes just couldn't read the documents.

Sadly, I think those labels they stick on us will be around for awhile! My friend and I used to say real fast........we are wickedeviloffdeceivedanddemonized! It had a certain ring to it and made us laugh because of the absurdity of it all. Especially when those that would use it took it so seriously!

Seems everytime they come up with another few words to describe our depravity, they do a pretty good job of describing themselves! Will they ever see that we are all in this together?

[lee (lee)]

Doris, I think they learned it at the knee of their spiritual father!!

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

I couldn't get page three or four to come up. What I read though....wow...talk about deja'vu! I'm pretty sure a number of those issues have come out of my mouth before. It's nice to see that others have seen things the same way....I thought I was "off" for a minute there.... :-)

[anova (anova)]

If you place your clicker on the bottom right hand corner of the documents, a square with four arrows will appear. Click on that square, and the document will appear in larger print.

This letter is incredible!!

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Incredible, Historical, Biblical..Astounding..

We have a Reformation in progress...

[anova (anova)]

Yes, Jeannie!

And our loving, heavenly Father is so good to us that he is letting us watch it all play out in all its' astounding detail, day by day!!

[minutus (minutus)]

If they can't figure out how to get right after two years, they just plain don't want to.

It's good to see Pastor Morin taking a stand.

[lee (lee)]

Thank you

You've said well, what we've been saying for a long time. My prayer is that you will receive what we didn't. If you don't, you not only join the ranks of former GGWOers but those of us that were TBSers that have also gone on to honor and serve our Lord.

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

I agree, the stand of the upstate NY folks is encouraging. I'm wondering if other affiliates will move into the fastlane because of this example.

Any idea on the timeframe of the changes at Rome and SF? Is this a matter of weeks or a matter of months?

[j_graz (j_graz)]

Time frame - Seneca Falls

We revised our constitution 2 months ago and will be changing our name within a month.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gifhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Shat/OTP. Satire and parody enjoy fairly strong protection in this country. Explainations of satire and parody do not. Just a thought I had as I was looking at the Rome docs.

[search4thetruthnow (search4thetruthnow)]

I attended service in Rome last Sunday the 16th and this past Sunday the 23rd. Very tearful and heart wrenching services.

Pastor Mark Morin and Pastor Gerry Graziano we thank you for the bold stance you have taken in this process of forgiveness, healing and change.

Most importantly we give honor and praise to God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Rules,

Search 4

JIM

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Jerry and Mark,
It is so encouraging to see the two local churches and their leadership standing for Jesus, the truth and repentance and accountability. May God bless your churches and the leadership during this transitional time.

For Him,
Dave

Jesus Never fails!

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Mark Morin and Jerry Graz, may God bless you in all of this, and thank you for posting this letter. It is good that you offer solutions to the problems you've defined.

I'm also happy to see you making use of Factnet to expose more people to the truth of what is happening in Baltimore. Only a small percentage of those who are reading actually post; you've reached many by putting this letter here.

"Where no council is the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety."
"And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church..."

Jim

[linda_kern (linda_kern)]

God bless the Rome Congregation and their Pastors

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

Arguendo, what ever do you mean? What does our post qualifying our bobbleheads have to do with the Rome documents? I was talking with someone who had seen them, she said she'd send them over, and so I decided to share them. Shat likes to make bobbleheads, but didn't want to seem malicious, so he posted a little disclaimer. The two issues don't have anything to do with each other.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Not talking about the Rome docs.

Some good reading for you.

http://www.answers.com/topic/hustler-magazine-v-falwell

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&amp;vol=485&amp;invol=46

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

We weren't trying to cover our asses or play at piety with the disclaimer. We were sending out a little love tap by stating clearly that we're going to make fun of some people that we actually like. We'll make parodies of Stevens til the cows come home without worry but the fact is that there are some people affiliated with GG we do like (even if we still want to throw 'em under the bus - figuratively, at least). So really, it's for our benefit (i.e. it makes us laugh) more than anyone else's... It's all in good fun.

[shat_happens (shat_happens)]

well when we make stevens "having an incestuous encounter with his mother in an outhouse." then let us know!

[shat_happens (shat_happens)]

as you can see, we do post disclaimers from time to time...check this one out:

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2005/03/we-sincerely-mean-itno-really-we-do.html#comments"

[heisimnot (heisimnot)]

What is also encouraging about what is going on in Rome is that Pastor Morin, while stating clearly that he doesn't wish to malign anyone, has taken a stand. Furthermore, he repented himself. He has opened himself and the church for full examination. When confronted, he doesn't give pat answers. He openly shares his struggles, owning his own mistakes. It is clear, too, that he does this for the glory of Christ and not for his own....

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Yogi, Yogi, Yogi, what are we going to do with you? CHS is TS's predecessor, TS is CHS's successor. I though you had more larnin' than that? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[yogi (yogi)]

Nah! Got my doctorate where Carl did...off the back of a cereal box so I stand corrected!

yogi, er, "doctor" yogi that is!

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Ah yes Yogerino, oops, no disrespect meant, make that Dr. Yogi, the Grape "nuts" box no less.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Ralph, I'm thinking it was Nut &amp; Honey.

How much course work was required for your Doctorate? Nut'in, Honey.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Anon adorably brief - it is SOOOOOOOO good to have you back!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

[alien (alien)]

Now is 30th of April. What has happend?

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Thanks, Ralph.

Alien - Click here:

Letters to Elders from Affiliates (http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&amp;post=148831#POST148831)

[j_graz (j_graz)]

Out of principal, P Morin resigned first...relinquished the leadership of the church, then the elders sent the letter that follows....



Friday, April 22, 2005


Dear Board of Elders of GGCF,

As I have spoken with each of you in our recent elder’s meetings, the situation in GGWO in Baltimore has produced unbelievable heartaches for my family and this local church. Sunday night was a hard but positive step in the right direction for me and my family as well, and I believe for our church. This season, God will, and has been faithful to use in my life for the good and I believe for the good of our church here as well as the affiliates, worldwide.
I shared that I would not be the one leading this church out of the affiliation we have been a part of now for 17 years in Rome, so as I could not be again blamed for this action by those in Baltimore, who master in the art of public slandering, and un-biblical hurtful marking. I have no “vested” interest or bitterness resulting in my personal involvement with the situation in GGWO in the past 28 months. With my 30 years of being in GGWO, it was my desire to be a useful, godly instrument along with other pastors to help facilitate needed change and fruitful repentance as well as stand in integrity regarding my own stewardship of this precious, local church. Principle is more important than my position, integrity more important than our reputations, and revealing God’s character more important than our agendas. So, I kindly submit my resignation as senior pastor of Greater Grace Christian Fellowship, Inc. of Rome, NY effective Monday, April 25, 2005.
Come April 30th, the response deadline to our April 18, 2005 letter to Pastor Stevens and the GGWO elders in Baltimore, should you not receive a healthy response of action, it will be your decisions as the remaining board of Elders to choose the direction you prayerfully want to lead this church regarding its affiliation and name. Should you decide as a board to move forward and change the church’s name and become affiliated with a healthy, accountable group of churches, I would be honored to prayerfully accept any leadership position you might offer. If not, it has been my deepest and greatest privilege to serve along side of each of you these years. I was entrusted by God with its stewardship as your pastor, and its stewardship I will relinquish. My and Barbara’s prayers are with each of you during this challenging yet God directed time.


I Cor. 15:58

Jesus Never Fails!


Pastor Mark M. Morin

(I am so proud of my friend!)

[j_graz (j_graz)]

Here is the 'disaffiliation' letter from the elders in Rome....who by the way have asked P Morin to return!



To Pastor Stevens, the remaining Board of Elders at Greater Grace World Outreach, and affiliated churches.

This letter is to inform you of our last official communication as an affiliated Greater Grace Church: Over the past two and a half years Pastor Morin has attempted to address serious problems that have affected us here in Rome, as well as him and his family. We, as elders, have closely engaged in this process as well. We’ve brought honest concerns and objections in the spirit of Matt 18 and Gal. 6:1. These matters will not be addressed again in this letter.

The entire Board of Elders of GGCF in Rome, NY with the exception of Pastor Morin, who requested not to attend, met on April 24th for several important purposes. During this meeting:

1. We reluctantly accepted the resignation of Pastor Morin (see attached letter)

2. We unanimously voted to break all affiliation with GGWO until full public repentance and you initiate restoration.

3. We unanimously voted to change the name of our church.

4. We voted to seek another affiliation with an organization which seeks to honor God and His character while pursing both the Great Commission and the Great Commandment without the exclusivity and the arrogant posture of current GGWO leaders regarding its teaching.

The Board of Elders in Rome have unanimously determined, based upon patient observation and first hand information and experience, that the current direction of GGWO is both unsound doctrinally, and harmful to individuals who fervently seek to follow the Lord.

As we have stated the past two years, as brothers in Christ, our offer still stands to assist GGWO in repairing the damage caused by unhealthy doctrinal interpretations and misapplications, unbalanced leadership views, hurtful comments, slander, name calling and shunning, but not as an affiliated church. We are unwilling to sit casually by while these actions continue to bring shame to the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ and cause continuing pain and heartache to precious people in Christ’s Body.

Signed,

Pastor Kevin Lewis

Pastor Chris Pruitt

Pastor Michael Phillip

Pastor Robert Duncomb

Pastor Eric Hesse

Theodore Clark


(I really love these guys!)

[yogi (yogi)]

Good for them! Where's P. Morin now?
Wherever you are; you are a hero of the faith and God is taking note of your integrity and desire to put Him first, NOT Carl Stevens sir!

yogi

[alien (alien)]

Pastor Brian and Pearl Williams are moving from Helsinki to Vienna.

[j_graz (j_graz)]

An excellent letter from Pastor Rob Prokop (posted with his permission as well)

I continue to post these because the elders are dead quiet and are just not responding to any of these. We are now telling it to the church.
(Mat 18:17...if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church)



Vienna, April 29, 2005


To Pastor Tom Schaller, the Elders in Baltimore, the Greater Grace affiliates and all members of GGWO,

Mary and I have been in this ministry for nearly 28 years and have served in it as overseas missionaries for over twenty. We have been very blessed by many things, among them: the emphasis on grace, the cross, Body life, discipleship, evangelism and missions. Therefore, it is with deep sadness but also deep conviction that I write this letter for all to read. The Lord is my witness. It is not necessary to re-hash the details regarding the events that have taken place in Baltimore over the last year and a half, nor the happenings that have taken place over the past few months specifically in regard to the Sandy Cove process and recent elections in Baltimore. I have read all of the recent letters in response to these events by Pastors Powell, Morin, Graziano, White, Wood, Walker, Wilkosz, Simmons and Hogarth and stand in full agreement with them. I was also one of the 10 writers of the letter sent from Florida addressed to Pastor Stevens and the elders in Baltimore, which was endorsed by 84 GGWO pastors.

I wish to inform you that the 14 men on our leadership team here in Vienna have unanimously agreed that it is in the best interest of our church to pursue other options regarding our future. We also have the overwhelming support of our general assembly.

I have compiled seven reasons (in regards to Baltimore) why we are following this present course of action:

1. A serious lack of accountability: This lack of accountability extends to the governing boards of both GGWO &amp; MBC&amp;S, also to the local church body in Baltimore, as well as to the affiliate ministries. For example, the vote for the pastorate, in the case of Pastor Stenger, was rendered null and void by the influence of certain individuals; thus the bonafide vote of the Board of Elders was overturned. In addition, the lack of accountability to the local body and the affiliates was evidenced by an absence of transparency and honest communications regarding the ongoing state of affairs. Decisions were made both ethically and financially without regard for how these decisions would eventually affect not only the local church in Baltimore, but also the ministry worldwide.

2. A serious lack of biblical ethics: I have personally witnessed the deliberate and disgraceful campaigning for position and jockeying for power within GGWO. I have also experienced the undermining of new and effective methods for church growth and consequently have been discredited for differing with the status quo. I am well aware of the unethical process that went on which led to the resignation of Pastor Stenger as the senior pastor of Baltimore and the electing of Pastor Schaller. I am also well aware that the unanimous decision of the elders to elect Pastor Schaller as the senior pastor was in simple compliance with the majority of the church (still attending) but not necessarily in compliance with the personal convictions of the elders.

3. A serious lack of proper hermeneutics: There has been constant insistence on following the “anointed man of God” in light of Old Testament stories and types (prophets, priests and kings) rather than following Jesus Christ in accordance to the New Testament. I dare say that the kind of discipleship that is being promoted by certain leaders in Baltimore is one of co-dependence on them rather than promoting dependence on Christ.

4. A serious lack of “freedom”: There has been considerable pressure, especially recently, to stay within the confines of the “way things have always been done” (i.e. the old landmarks). Statements have consistently been made from the pulpit and at raps in an attempt to intimidate, discredit and discourage those who attempt to serve God in the way He is personally leading them.

5. A serious lack of having a “voice”: This has been witnessed in the entire Sandy Cove process. From the first conception of such a meeting (where affiliates could have a “voice” in their future) there were numerous attempts to veto Sandy Cove I. There was also quiet campaigning against it from those opposed to it, where it was labeled as “conspiratorial”, “rebellious” and “evil”. Sandy Cove was anything but that; I was there and was part of the process that brought it about. There have been numerous attempts after Sandy Cove to discredit its resolutions and the future process leading to Sandy Cove II, which was scheduled for June 2005. Everyone present signed the covenant. However, certain individuals who signed the covenant, now openly speak against it; their negativity goes unchallenged by leaders in Baltimore—a clear violation of the document they signed.

6. A serious lack of concern: One of the saddest things I have witnessed was the labeling of former staff members (who were pushed out) as “dead wood”. There is a serious lack of godly concern for their lives, as well as the lives of hundreds of people around world who have been grieved, hurt and devastated through this ordeal. There is seemingly no concern that the testimony of Jesus Christ has been utterly disgraced in our ministry, evidenced by the indifference of the present leadership to address and resolve the issues at hand.

7. A serious lack of repentance: In light of the above mentioned (i.e. the serious lack of accountability, ethics, proper hermeneutics, freedom, voice and concern), there has been no repentance in regard to these issues. With the tremendous turmoil that has occurred in Baltimore and its devastating effects worldwide, it amazes me that there is no one in leadership who steps up and assumes responsibility, proving the fact that there is indeed, no accountability. Is there anyone willing to say, “I was wrong; I repent—what can I do to make things right?” This includes the campaigning and jockeying for power, the undermining of other men and their ministries, the discarding of faithful staff members and as stated, the indifference of the present leadership to address and resolve the problems at hand.

Due to these concerns, we will no longer be promoting, supporting or attending any Greater Grace functions unless these issues are seriously noted and completely resolved. In the meantime, we are considering future alternatives for our local church here in Vienna.



Respectfully yours,


Pastor Rob Prokop