Current State of Affairs in Baltimore

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Dawn, I reposted your thread.

There is a lot going on in Baltimore right now. Many people continue to leave. Some leaders are leaving. A large group are following one leader to start a work in Perry Hall. (sir, you and your wife have many old-timer friends praying for you)

The Rome, NY. elders just posted their official disaffiliation letter here on the forum. Many will follow. Already on the official GGWO website, GG themselves have removed the names of several ministries. Including but not limited to: South Berwick, Me, Westfield, Ma, Rome and Seneca Falls, NY. Austria, Argentina. We have all heard that Tacoma and several of the European churches will follow suit shortly also. If you care to email me privately (Jeannieree44@aol.com) I will help you find out where your family is at in all this mess, if you need more information. I can tell you some the latest people to leave I would consider "pastor worshipers" but they are exiting. Many of the bible college students are biding their time for the next two weeks and will not be returning in the fall.

Carl continues to be holed up in his house, leaving only to "doctor shop." He has managed to hurt, alienate and isolate himself from all his children.


So this is the current state of affairs in Baltimore! A very sad state indeed!



Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 12:16 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can anyone tell us what is going on behind the scenes


Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 12:31 pm:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Panic, lies, and pools of sweat.


Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 1:26 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph

If what you say is true,
why on todays' The Grace Hour were
Pastor Shaller
and
Pastor Love
and
several callers
all so happy
and filled with praise for GGWO.

Are they all faking it?

The mystery of the Parallel Universe continues.

daved


Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 1:37 pm:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because they pat each other on the back. Tell each other how off we all are and how on they are. Take another sip of the water down cool aid, and go on GH.

But I will guarantee you that they are asking one another behind the scenes, "How are we going to keep up the payments on this property? MBC&S enrollemnt is down! Offderings are down! What are we going to do? I jsut heard another affiliate dropped their affiliation! What are we going to do?" Etc., and etc.

They can make all the "faith statements" they want on radio. They can get into the pulpit and yell, "WE ARE IN REVIVAL." all they want. The truth is, GGC is imploding, and I will guarantee you they ARE sweating it.

Blessings,

Ralpg
1Cor 15:10


Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 1:49 pm:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ralph,

Later this afternoon I will transcribe Lillian's praise of GGWO,
followed by Pastor Schaller's praise of Pastor Carl Stevens.

Wasn't at least one of Sunday's services a full house?

How can that be if so many people at home base are leaving?

The Mystery of the Parallel Universe continues.

Every poster on the GGWO Forum should try to listen to "The Grace Hour" several times, just to discover that the Parallal Universe, called The Grace Hour, doesn't seem to know that FACTNet exists.

dave


Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 2:07 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daved - okay, but what is full now? And who said so?

My son left six months ago and he said it was no longer full then. I occasionally drive by on a Wednesday or Sunday evening and the parking lot is certainly not nealry as full. But I will find out.

Thank you for listening to GH and transcribing it for us, better you tahn me! But thannk you very much. I know that it is a chore, but a labor of love for your "family" here on FactNet. I award you the FactNet seal of approval.


Sir Ralph the Ignoble
Admiral of the Queens Fleets

Oops, this is the wrong thread for that, isn't it?

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Jeannie you are a DOLL!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif And I do not mean Barbie or Kewpie!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[rumors (rumors)]

Who is doing something in Perry Hall? And where/When?

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

I think that was last month??http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif Have not heard any more about that.

Jeannie! Jeannie, help!

[paddypunt (paddypunt)]

hey !!

so whast happening with the senega falls and Rome ministries?

i mean is there fault or are they the goodies and dont like the way GGWO is being run is that y there breaking off?

reason for askin is that ROME and Senega falls are the 2 churces i went and was introdueced to when i came over to GGWO from Ireland and i no the 2 Pastors!!!

any tell whats the story with them both!!

[paddypunt (paddypunt)]

hey !!

so whast happening with the senega falls and Rome ministries?

i mean is there fault or are they the goodies and dont like the way GGWO is being run is that y there breaking off?

reason for askin is that ROME and Senega falls are the 2 churces i went and was introdueced to when i came over to GGWO from Ireland and i no the 2 Pastors!!!

any tell whats the story with them both!!

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Paddy, Both Seneca Falls and Rome churches have taken a very public stand against the things revealed concerning GGWO. They have disaffiliated and are actively helping the students in the bible college to receive the truth of false teachings of GGWO.

God Bless you mo chara from Innis na glas!

[dawn (dawn)]

I cannot even imagine pastor in that shape. Its inconcievable for me to think that. I pray for him, my heart is deeply saddened. After all of these years, I see him as he once was. Something has to happen soon to revive and keep the ministry from falling. It will take an admission from Pastor and the elders of the errors. True leadership could restore now before more damage is done. My prayers are for that to happen. I believe it will happen. I have a niece and her family on the mission field. I have two sisters in Balt. If we all pray as ONE, God who loves us all can create a miracle. Pastor needs our prayers as never before.

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

hey paddypunt.... i know the guy from northern ireland very well... and have been wondering how he is doing in all this... do you have an email...

[dawn (dawn)]

I cannot even imagine pastor in that shape. Its inconcievable for me to think that. I pray for him, my heart is deeply saddened. After all of these years, I see him as he once was. Something has to happen soon to revive and keep the ministry from falling. It will take an admission from Pastor and the elders of the errors. True leadership could restore now before more damage is done. My prayers are for that to happen. I believe it will happen. I have a niece and her family on the mission field. I have two sisters in Balt. If we all pray as ONE, God who loves us all can create a miracle. Pastor needs our prayers as never before.

[paddypunt (paddypunt)]

hey !!!

so is pastor Morin and pastor Graziano the good guys in all this???

yeah its glentraynor@hotmail.com

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

thanx glen... i will contact you.

in my opinion morin & graziano are good guys... they are certainly rare birds in ggwo. men who are calling for accountability and transparency for EVERYONE and willing to go on record with their convictions!!

(Message edited by C_la_verite on April 29, 2005)

[paddypunt (paddypunt)]

That is great news!!!

ill tell u why in all my conflicts with GGWO from my story that i posted ( NEW GUY) Pastor Morin is the guy who have been a great infulence in my christian life and took a keen intrest in me, whil i was aprt of GGWO for a short time!! and through it all i have not once said anything wrong abt him to anyone in ireland abt the church so thats an answer to prayer o hear that!!!

[search4thetruthnow (search4thetruthnow)]

Paddy,
A special hello from Rome. I am posting this because you seem to truly care. I am a member of the Rome church (can't really call it GGCF anymore!) and I can tell you from personal experience that P Morin is a real "Good Guy". Now, I did not always think so, we actually left the church about 4-6 months ago because of our concerns. We thought we were left in the dust and perhaps "marked". Not so, our friends there are still our friends and our issues address. P Morin personally apologized for anything he may have done and We did as well. Since then (a couple weeks ago) we have been back and there have been tears of grief, tears of love and tears of healing. This has not been easy for him (or Pastor G) but they are staying strong. I truly have great faith in their abilities (Faith CAN be restored) and am proud to be back.
Please believe that GG is not all "bad" and I know that P Morin will continue to support missions. He believes in missions very strongly and I am quite sure that will never change.

That is the state of the Rome congregation. Praise the Lord!

Search

[paddypunt (paddypunt)]

hey!!

yeah wel i can see why i mean Pastor Morin has been with carl stevens through thick and thin over the year since maine and well i mean it just shows How God can break through the most solid of human friendships to ensure the truth is out there!!

i went the Rome church a few times Glen Traynor i am i used to date Katrina Freeman?
I lreally like Pastor Morin and Graziano anytime i did hear them speak whoch wasnt much and Pastor Morin really took me under hos wing considering i was only there 1 times!!

Could you pass on a message from Me sayung i aint forgotten abt him and i want to han k him for the encouragement he gave me!! when i left Hungary and the bible college there i was to ashamed ever to talk to him over it, so its been over 3 years sinc ei saw him o heard from him!

my e-mil is glentraynor@hotmail.com

Glen

[out_for_good (out_for_good)]

Can anyone confirm if Wayne Hogarth and the Westfield church have really disaaffiliated?

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

hmmm...I wonder if CHS is going to come over the pulpit and say "wherever you are Steve, I love you...." and then say, out of the other side of his mouth, "you DON'T take people away from thier home church....it is SIN! I don't agree with it, I don't sanction it." I bet he'll get lot's of applause for that one.....

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

honey, I ain't even on the road! :-)

[jeannie (jeannie)]

I have heard it from someone in a leadership position in Westfield that they have, in fact, disaffiliated.

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

jump on the boat (sails up) floating peacefully UNDER the bridge.... yeeeee haaaaw!

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

ooohhh....pick me up! I'm at the end of the dock...

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

oh yeah doris....I remember that now...wow, I was shocked....how naive....

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

yep, watching the cloud and THE PAST roll away.....

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

don't worry baby... i see you flailing hands and am steering the happy boat to throw a line to ya..... leave your bags at the dock... we don't have room....

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

fughetaboutit! bags? HAH!!! I don't even have clothes...i'm already in my 'glorified' body....

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

yeah, that's my lame portuguese/french canadian impression of an italian....but I digress....

[ipray4grace (ipray4grace)]

Hey out_for_good

Westfield has in fact disaffilliated.
They announced it last Sunday to the congregation.

[out_for_good (out_for_good)]

Did you happen to be there or do you know someone who attends there?

[out_for_good (out_for_good)]

Did you happen to be there or do you know someone who attends there? I'm interested to know if all of the leadership there agreed to the disaffilliation.

[ipray4grace (ipray4grace)]

I happened to be there.
The church elders answered any and all questions.
I was very impressed with the uncompromising and balanced way they handled this. They gave every opportunity for GGWO to do the Biblical thing. And yes the elders were in complete agreement. It was presented with out whitewash or making of excuses. Now they are looking forward to what ever God has planned for our church. I believe that God will bless the sox off of our church. Pastor Wayne Hoggarth (and the elders) trully love Jesus and it shows in the way he (they) honor Christ's body members. It was strange though. Feeling joy for the truth being upheld, heartbreak to see so many we love fall, and at the same time feeling shame knowing that our Savior's good name has been so dragged through all that filth. The world applaudes and says,"Look at those hypocrites!" Lord please keep me pure from judging. There but for the grace of God go I.

[minutus (minutus)]

Is John Cirlingione stiil at Hogarth's church? Does he agree with the reforms?

[out_for_good (out_for_good)]

iprayforgrace - Did P.Wayne say why the church was disaffiliating? Have you been going there for long?

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

OFG,

I think the reason for disaffiliation is the same as all the others, see SC documents and FL letter. As I posted somewhere else, he preached a message that blasted man worhip, it is on their website. I think he made it clear what his current position was. Check out the message. It is called Exalting Christ over self exaltation.

[isabella (isabella)]

Eric,

Are the current affiliated pastors going to repent in public?

Just wondering...

Isabella

[out_for_good (out_for_good)]

Does Westfield have a new church name and a new website?

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Isabella,
I spoke with one that said he would. Who knows if they all will? If they really wanted to make a change for Christ they would publicly.
Maybe there are lurkers from these affiliated churches that can answer this, perhaps some pastors have already done what P. Morin did.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

no same, same
http://www.ggcpv.org/

[yogi (yogi)]

Did anyone see them put that poor naive man from Dallas up to PRAISE GGWO on the internet service today? pathetic

And what's with Jeff and Nancy Phelps preaching at GGWO "homebase" if their home church in Tacoma headed by Tom Powell, is disaffiliating?
I am very disappointed in them for not taking a stand and boycotting GGWO in EVERY way!

Did anyone listen to T. Schaller's double entant this morning during GGWO church service? He sounds just like his mentor using Jesus' precious word to justify himself and his practices! Where is the true recognition and repentance for his subversive tactics of getting himself elected as Chief Elder and forcing Stenger's resignation? He wants the affiliates but he doesn't abide by the SC? What a hypocrite!

TS QUOTE: "I'm not going to share my spirit with the proud..."

Another words Tommy Boy you are not going to repent and speak the truth in love. How can you say these "godly platitudes" and not repent of your subversive tactics of dealing with Paul Stevens, Lewis (not that he didn't do his own share of destroying lives too), Steve Stevens, Gerry Graziano, Skip Wood, Mark Morin, Roger Stenger and many others!

TS QUOTE:"28 kinds of pride Doctor Stevens taught us..."make that 29 Tommy Boy. No, you have your own "special" brand of pride!

TS QUOTE: "Judge not least you be judged?" Aren't you judging those who are exposing the truth about YOU and your minions despicable acts of secret raps etc, etc. to get you "elected" as CE Tommy Boy?

TS QUOTE: "For he shall speak not of himself..."
*twist* those scriptures Tommy Boy, so you won't have to be accountable.

TS QUOTE: "The thing I am most concerned about is our spirituality as a fellowship...concerned about our self-sufficiency..."
*twist" some more with subtle inferences and lies Tommy Boy! You should be concerned about your self-sufficiency because if you don't come clean there will probably be only three churches as affiliates: Hungary, Pastor Matti's and Pastor Morrison's.

TS QUOTE: "This fellowship is unique (GGWO?)"
*twist* Is it? Perhaps you're right Tommy Boy, after all, it's one of the few churchs with NO accountability, misuse of tithes and offerings and continued, unrepentant subversion to run things!

TS QUOTE: Act's description of the New Testament church...
*twist* you must stay at GGWO because it's JUST like the N.T. church... NOT!

TS QUOTE: "Are they interested to know God Almighty will meet my greatest need?"

*twist* If you question or leave GGWO it was infered one is NOT interested in knowing God and the that one doesn't believe HE will meet one's greatest need, so DON'T think and DON'T question my spiritual insights and authority, otherwise, I will know you don't want to know God and see Him as your sufficiency...Tommy Boy YOU'RE A LIAR!

TS QUOTE: "Fundamental error in all of our lives is that sleeping,creeping pride..."
*twist* TAKE A GOOD, LONG LOOK IN THE MIRROR TOMMY BOY!

Tommy Boy continued to twist facts and infere many things; all beautifully, "exegeted" from scripture out of context. He summarized his "beautiful" "broken" sermon with accusations of jealousy...*twist* *twist*
PLEASE! Yes, we are jealous of all you deceived who are being manipulated by charlatans.

Tommy Boy, DON'T use God's beautiful word to justify your secret, hateful actions...HOW DARE YOU!

No Tommy Boy, God is permitting this...remember 'if a man's ways are pleasing to the Lord even his enemies will be at peace with him.' Read on Tommy Boy, many enemies are NOT at peace with you, Carl Stevens or the two-faced elders of GGWO!

TS QUOTE: "Speak according to my flesh I will never become what I should be...
*twist* Those on FACTNet are speaking according to THEIR flesh so they will NEVER become what they should be spiritually. Tommy Boy hides behind the words of the Bible to induce fear and to protect himself from having to admit to wrong doings or tell the truth about the lack of spiritual, financial and personal accountability of Carl Stevens, the perversion and twisting of scripture for the advantage and continuance of an abusive church system!

Very subtle abuse and these poor stupids continue to believe this charlatan too! Please run into the arms of Jesus in a NON-abusive church system, PLEASE!

yogi










(Message edited by yogi on May 01, 2005)

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Did I hear Tommyboy introduce Marty O'Brien this morning? Marty was sitting in the crowd...

[yogi (yogi)]

yes you did. Who is he?

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Yogi,
Nancy had commited to teach at the women's seminar a while ago, she was keeping her commitment. Pr. Jeff came as a covering I am sure.

Great commentary on TS.

[yogi (yogi)]

Thanks ericlaw!

yogi

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Marty O'Brien posts here as Bruder5.

He was in Balto Belly of the Beast today?

Wazzup with that?

[yogi (yogi)]

Maybe he stood and shouted, "LIAR" but it was edited it off the broadcast?!

yogi

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

ericlaw

So, Jeff and Nancy are "disaffiliated"? Nancy was a friend of mine at SSB...I used to tease her about being Pastah's pet *LOL* and she used to tease me about being such a rebel. I would love to hear they have left GGWO with the Tacoma church.

[daved (daved)]

Near the beginning of his message this morning, Pastor Schaller said:

<font color="ff0000">>>>
This morning I would like you to turn to John 16 verse 13.
This will not be long, but important.

This has been a great morning…am I looking at Marty O’Brien?

Marty, I cannot...Wow, Wow, that’s awesome!
Thank you for coming here, Wow
How many know Marty?
Oh boy, would you like to stand just for a minute?
Wave your hand.
Good to have you.
Boy...Wow
Thirty years ago he and I went over to Finland,
and thirty years later here we are.
>>></font>

daved

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

That is hurlable!

[anova (anova)]

I don't know about you, but I would LOVE to drop in on a GG service! (If I ever did, however, it would be with some trepidation.)

I think he's truly got some gutz. I'm thoroughly sure that his presence there should not be interpreted as some kind of an indorcement.


Anovus

[search4truth (search4truth)]

Question:

Does anyone know if Daniel Lewis has left GGWO? Someone recently mentioned he moved to FL.

Also, can someone tell me where P.Paul's church is located and the name? Just curious...

Thanks &amp; God bless!
search4truth

(Message edited by search4truth on May 01, 2005)

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

Ummm, I saw him on the property on Friday, I think.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

rjfernalld,

I wouldn't say the Phelps have disaffiliated yet. I don't know that Tacoma has officially left either. I think they are close though. I do know that they are changing the name to their church.

[dawn (dawn)]

Where is Pastor? Has Shaller taken over? Where is Paul? Where is Steve? Where is anything?

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

Shaller is new head, Paul has a church in Havre De Grace, not a GGWO church, and Steve is on his was out...going to be starting a church in Perry Hall. As for CHS? He's senior pastor for life and is not going anywhere...

[daved (daved)]

Pastor Carl Stevens occasionally can be heard live on The Grace Hour. Pastor Carl Stevens was on live on at least four Grace Hour Boadcasts in April. His most recent listed appearance was April 20th

Pastor Steve Stevens was on live on a least 13 Grace Hour Broadcasts in April, his most recent listed appearance was on April 27th.

Pastor Schaller occasionally appears live on the Grace Hour.

The Grace Hour Archives can be found at the link below:

http://www.ggwo.org/grace_hour_archives.html

daved

(Message edited by daved on May 01, 2005)

[search4truth (search4truth)]

Does P. Stevens still come to the church? And why is Steve Stevens leaving? Isn't he doing the GH with P. Love most days? I haven't been able to hear it in some time now so I'm out of the loop. Does someone know what the name of P. Paul's church is?

Thanks,
search4truth

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

P. Pauls church is Finished Work Ministries. You can catch their broadcast 12:00PM daily at http://wjss1330.net/ it is called Faith Thoughts.
P. Steve is leaving because the ministry has been hijacked. There is no reason for him to stay. He will be starting a bible study in the Whitemarsh / Perry Hall area with the goal of forming it into a church. He will have plenty of people plus many leaders from GG going with him. He is still going through the motions at GG, but his family is not attending. I think he is waiting for the school year to end. Then he can just fade away from GG in the summer months and go start a new work.

P. Stevens comes to church when it suits him, or when he is mentally and physically able

(Message edited by ericlaw on May 01, 2005)

[yogi (yogi)]

Who prey tell is going with P. Steve?

yogi

[search4truth (search4truth)]

ericlaw,

Man, this is so confusing. How do the sons (Paul &amp; Steve Stevens) deal with their Father P. Stevens? Are they communicating? How can P. Stevens still have "dear friends" out there when they have dis-affiliated? This is just so hard to understand, everyone going off on their own. Do Prs. Paul &amp; Steve speak?http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif I guess I really don't know anything at all. Please forgive me for all the questions.

God bless.
search4truth

(Message edited by search4truth on May 01, 2005)

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

I'd rather not call out names, but several of the pastors that you know are leaving Balt will go with him or at least support him on their way to some affiliate ministry. Many body members will end up there also, he did get almost 300 votes.

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

Paul and Steve do speak...Steve went to Paul's church last Thursday. I think there are probably things that we all don't know about how it feels to be in that family. I'm sure those brothers are doing what they can to have Christ be between them.

[search4truth (search4truth)]

Dinaweena,

Thank you for the information. I'm sure you're right about not knowing the things that this particular family has to deal with. Whatever happened to P.Stevens' daughter? Didn't she move to Balt. like a year ago? Does Barbara (P.Stevens' wife) go to any of the services? Does either P. Paul or P. Steve Stevens have ANY contact to their Father? I thought P. Steve and Schaller get along and were going to co-labor together? Oh am I misinformed. All through a current member of GGWO. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

I have seen Barbara at services as recent as 3 weeks ago. That's the last time I've gone. As far as the contact with thier father, I don't know. I am under the impression that right now no one except for a select few are able to see CHS....I've heard that his sons aren't among the lucky....but that IS heresay. I'm also under the impression that P. Steve really doesn't want to have anything to do with the church, as sick as it is. I think a lot of people who were looking for Schaller to come in and change things have heard him lately and are dumbfounded and disgusted now that they are seeing that he is going to keep going the same direction.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Search,
Many of the disaffiliating pastors still have a loyalty for P. Stevens that will die hard. My take is this:
They generally hold P. Stevens in high regards with the exception of the last couple or years. Probably starting with the Alan Lang incident. I think that event marked a general parting of ways. These men aren't willing to trash P. Stevens but are not happy with his recent performance, nor are they happy with Balt's handling of P. Stevens problems. Basically the leadership of GGWO to this day will not admit that he has a problem of that he did anything wrong. When many people brought their concerns, including affiliate pastors, balt pastors and body members, they were marked and sent packing in a bad way. So in these men's minds pastor still holds a special place, but he has done things that GGWO needs to come clean on.

As for Paul and Steve. I think they still talk. They are brothers, and I believe they still love their father.
I personally think that if and when Steve starts a work, he will probably reconcile with Paul "officially" as will the "new" association of "ex-GG" affiliates.

(Message edited by ericlaw on May 02, 2005)

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

I agree with you ericlaw...I too think that is what will happen with Paul and Steve.

[search4truth (search4truth)]

Thank you so much for helping me understand some of this confusion. It is so crazy and sad that nothing can be said openly about Pastor Stevens and his current state and "issues." I know everyone says that he is ill, but even the illnesses have not been made public, have they. I mean from the pulpit.

Have a good night everyone!
search4truth

[sad_u_see (sad_u_see)]

Pst. Hogarth and Westfield did not disaffiliate..they are taking a very strong stand and are banning all activities at GGWO and are going to change thier name and will be standing on the side lines...

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

why would they be doing all of that if they are not disaffiliating?

[buggin (buggin)]

ericlaw,
I believe you are accurate for the most part of your assessment in your 10:17pm post.
As for Paul and Steve. On grace hour they act cordial to each other. Yet they have always been competetive for Dads approval. Back and forth and back and forth they have had to fight for the spot of 'favorite' over the years.
It began in about 1981 when big brother Bruce had the backbone to tell Dad 'sometings wrong here' and was catagorically dismissed and slandered by Dad, then by Paul over the years.
Steve went "off" to Cape Cod for ten years just after the Doveydenas court case in 1987/88.
Steve was then the 'bad son' along with Bruce.

Paul got to be Dads 'favorite' by default. Kind of like Schaller got to be 'Chief Elder'

Steve shows back up in Baltimore circa 1998 and Carl is glad to have Steve 'get right'
Paul gets nervous about sharing the 'favorite' son status and starts to malign Steve to others.
Again they are cordial in front of others but barely speak otherwise.
Now that Paul is learning what its like to be labled as 'in rebellion'. Without realizing it Paul forfeited the 'favorite' spot to Steve when his(Pauls) talk with dad about stepping down got Carl mad at him.
Sad to say Carl used the carrot and stick approach even with his sons who wanted a fathers approval.
Bruce is the only one who would not play the game and become his own man.
I don't think Steve and Paul are like Carl.
They were indoctrinated in Bible Speaks/GGWO thinking from the time they were kids. They grew up to parrot their Dads distorted views. They were nowhere as cunning or clever as Dad in screwing people. They were outright clumsy at times. I believe the shock of this whole time of transition in that cult taking place before our eyes may actually help melt some of the cataracts from the eyes of Steve and Paul. Spiritual Lasik surgery if you allow me such a metaphor. I sincerely hope they see the light, repent to the many they hurt, and find Gods peace, yet I have a hard time feeling sorry for them considering their major part in taking advantage of their positions over the years .

[sad_u_see (sad_u_see)]

Because he is trying to leave a door open for change of heart. If a brother is gone...into the world, error etc. do we just shut the door? Do we change our address? Phone number? No! We leave a door open so if they see the light..hey they are welcomed here. where ever that is?!!

[daved (daved)]

In the recent past, Pastor Carl Stevens has acknowledged some of his physical problems to the GGWO congrgation, and personally asked for their prayers.

Pastor Carl Stevens has also acknowledged some of his physical problems to the listeners of "The Grace Hour".

daved

[bobbie (bobbie)]

I believe that Pastor Paul truly wanted to break from the patterns of the past, but I'm not sure that's what the people that have followed him from GGWO are expecting. If the people that have followed Pastor Paul to Havre de Grace still have a cult mentality will they really want change or will it just be more of the same weird behavior.

[friendinchrist (friendinchrist)]

We who have "followed" Pastor Paul to Havre De Grace do not have a cult mentality. Pastor Paul has grown alot in the past year and a half. He has drawn closer to Christ, and truly wants to be different from what we all experienced in Baltimore, Lenox, etc. He preaches with an annointing, and has done his best to get rid of GGWO doctrine. We are a body with joy, moving on together to serve God, and looking forward to great days ahead. No weird behavior here.

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

... oh, can we please clarify that. i'm a tad sensative about being classified as having "followed" ANY man ANYWHERE, EVER AGAIN. painful realizations about having "followed a man" ONCE in my life (and paid for it) keep many of us ex-ers very careful about repeating the pattern.
i was lead by the holy spirit to walk out the doors of gg. i was lead by god to fellow believers who met together after leaving as well... our meeting together has grown into a loccal assembly, now in havre de grace.
just rejoice with us for washing off the old (continuing process)and walking in a new work of god.

[anova (anova)]

bells_joy,

Could you tell us a little more about the local assembly of exers in havre de grace? I would love to hear about it. Also, I have a friend who left many years ago who would probably want to come.

And we do rejoice with you! How great that you have all been able to come together for healing and going on with God.

Anovus

[yogi (yogi)]

bells,

May I ask what songs you all sing for worship?
Do the pastors sit up on the stage like at GGWO?
Do you follow the same intro, sermon format?
Are the tithes asked for twice like GGWO?

Thanks for your kind indulgence of my inquiries.

yogi

[friendinchrist (friendinchrist)]

Yogi,

I'm not really sure what songs we sing has any significance, unless they're worldy, which they are not. There is no stage, those who will speak do sit to the left of the pulpit. Probably for space reasons. As far as the format goes, again what is the significance? I would guess many churches have a similar one. The offering is taken once.
I hope that eases any concerns.

[yogi (yogi)]

Thanks friend,

Just wondered if services were a carbon copy of GGWO Balto's. If so then I'd venture to say this is a great, big red flag that the GGWO mentality is following you guys. Once again, thanks for your kind response and have a good day!

yogi

[bobbie (bobbie)]

Friend in Christ,
how many new people have been drawn to your worship services?and has anyone ever been discouraged from looking at fact net, say from the pulpit?

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Bobbie - absolutely not! A number of the FW church folks are in fact posting on here. P, Paul himself has.

[friendinchrist (friendinchrist)]

We have a number of new people coming to our services. I would be guessing but I'll say around 20-25 from the area. We don't discuss factnet.

[yogi (yogi)]

Why not?

yogi

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Yogi (all),

Because to do so could cause folks to actually question whether or not Paul Stevens is currently qualifed to hold the office of New Testament Elder and Pastor/Teacher. While I do consider Paul a Brother in Christ, it is my conviction that:

1) Paul's doctrinal foundation is uncooked and has never been challenged by an objective group of proven Evangelical Elders.

2) The magnitude of destruction caused by Paul's sin requires a PROCESS of repentance where he steps down from public ministry and office for a SIGNIFICANT period of time (this goes for Carl H. Stevens too) during which he (Paul) attends a reputable Evangelical Seminary where he can gain a correct understanding of the Holy Scriptures.

3) Paul (and Carl) need to consider the need for finanical restitution to the Body of Christ. I believe that it was absolutely correct for the Langs to be remunerated for the destruction and displacment that Paul's sin caused their family. However, as a former member of GGWO who worked exceedinly hard and gave very faithfully, I'm appauled that Paul and Carl are not personally being held responsible for THEIR actions. The fact is that they "fleeced the flock" to pay for their crime. In simple terms, they stole from God, from me, and also from many others.

In light of their lack of public repentance and offer to make restitution, all objective Biblically-thinking Christians should commit them to God but NOT give any attention to what they (Paul and Carl) say on God's behalf.

In Christ the Sovereign King,


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

(Message edited by nonotone on May 02, 2005)

[friendinchrist (friendinchrist)]

Brian,

Can you show where in scripture it says that a Pastor should step down for a significant time. I am in no way stating that Pastor Paul did not do wrong, I just don't see a biblical premise for him to step down. Also, It sounds very presumptuous on your part to think that Pastor Paul lacks the ability on his own, thru the Holy Spirit in him to re-think, study and teach scripture apart from what he was taught by CHS. I know that his history is much deeper than ours, but he is a man seeking God. Let's give him an opportunity to follow the Holy Spirit's leading for his life, and encourage him that he didn't just give up.
As far as his repentance goes, he has publicly apologized for many whom he has hurt, and done so a few times from the pulpit. This has been stated on more than one thread.

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

friend... when will we learn... we're like a piniata at a birthday party to some of our brothers and sisters here.... ssssee ya!

[nonotone (nonotone)]

FriendinChrist,

Identify yourself in an email to nonotone@mac.com and I'll reply with a well crafted Scriptural response. I'll say this "up front", if you are seeking a comfortable GGWO-style "Finished Work" treatise from me, you'll not get it. While I absolutely believe in total forgiveness AND restoration (when such is possible), God is not mocked and upholding the testimony of His offices is a fearful thing. We are *not* allowed to "make up the rules" on our own. Anyone can "say" they are led by the Holy Spirit, but men of God in leadership must be accountable to other proven men of God (proven not simply in "outward fruit" but also in the "manner in which they run the race").

Try taking a look at conservative Evangelical Church History FriendInChirst. In the current state of affairs, Paul would be deposed and under discipline. The state of his brokedness would be evaluated by a group of loving yet sober-minded Elders. This is for the FLOCK'S PROTECTION FriendInChrist.

Do you understand how serious this is?


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

No Brian we would all actually like to hear your response. If it is Biblical you should have no problem posting it here, or do you like Greater Grace have something to hide. MAybe someone else studied it and might prove you wrong, don't know

[bobbie (bobbie)]

does the Ministry in Havre de Grace have an open book policy? or rather do you know where the money from your tithes and offerings go? Do the Pastors have salaries, do they work other jobs as well? Are messages based on congregants personal lives....I'd rather be a piniata than an ostrich with my head in the sand.

[friendinchrist (friendinchrist)]

Bobbie,
Why don't you come out and see for yourself. Seems to me as if you're looking for something wrong. I have clearly stated in another post, that we are doing our best to separate from the past experiences of GGWO.

A great place for you to start would be to ask questions of the leadership:
P. Paul Stevens
P. Mark Schollaert
Dave Coon
Stew Franklin
Keith Haggard
Sam Balzanna

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

OH! Old friends....I miss them so. I think we may come out this coming Sunday....I'M SO EXCITED!!!

[bobbie (bobbie)]

No thanks, I make it a practice to only get involved with 1 cult per lifetime.Maybe next time.

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

All best to those in Havre de Grace. Hope you all find what you desire.

Alanna O

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Presssing_on,

Why don't you and FIC identify yoursevles on this forum?


Brian Bowman

[friendinchrist (friendinchrist)]

Because of childish comments like Bobbie's.
I will contact you tonight Brian. We know each other.

FIC

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Why doesn't everyone do that. I can't speak for all but I think there is still a little Greater Grace fear left in some of us. Also some of us still have family members there and They don't need to be attacked because of our decisons. I will try to do this after June 1. Then I will give my story why.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

pressing_on,

I can assure that my intention is _not_ to prove or disprove anything for this would be nearly impossible given the divergence of presuppositions here on FN. My issue is with the larger body of Christ (... especially with regard to historical Evangelical Christianity) and how the issue of protracted immorality, conspiracy to coverup, and a payoff that would bankrupt most churches would be handled by men much more wise than myself.

It is my observation that this kind of thinking about Biblical ethics is not something that most TBS/GGWO leaders or people have had much exposure to - which is one reason this and similar problems continue to be unresolved to this day.

Please don't expect me to engage some emotional diatribe over "proof texts" here on FN. It is not mine nor your opinion about what scripture teaches that matters anyway. Furthermore, If you cannot concede that the vast majority of Biblically-conservative Evangelical Ministries operating today (or historically) would NOT _currently_ allow Paul Stevens to a occupy a pulpit, then we have nothing more to dicuss.


Brian Bowman

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

You are right it is not our opinion it is Gods, and if I were to sin no matter how awful the sin, because sin is sin whether I have though it or done it, I thank my God that He will forgive me and that my life isn't through. If I lived in the legalism that my sin makes me a leaper for a season then why even go on and why the bloodshed.
God can use me, you, or anyone the moment we confess because He waits for the moment that we come to Him, and we are restored into fellowship, if HE doesn't hold it against us why should we hold it against another.

[minutus (minutus)]

Sin has NEVER been without consequences.

Adam and Eve were covered but cast out.
David was forgiven but his kingdom and home suffered from the point of his affair until beyond his death.
Christ suffered unbelievably for our sakes.

Lk. 17:4 "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, `I repent,' forgive him."

The first time hasn't happened yet. We're not holding our breath...

[minutus (minutus)]

I feel a Jim Faucett coming on ...

[nonotone (nonotone)]

pressing_on,

How many years (decades) were you in GGWO?


Brian Bowman

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Pressing,
Brian is not trying to stitch are scarlet letter on to Paul's chest. What he is saying is that the New Testment is clear on church government. It also lays out how leaders are to conduct themselves and be disciplined if they misuse their position.
I think Jim Faucett pointed out that the majority of abuses happen in non-denominational churches because there is no greater body of government to keep leaders accountable.
This issue has nothing to do with holding Paul's sin over him, but correcting him with the end goal of restoration in a Godly gracious process.
There is not doubt that he is a great man and a gifted preacher. I think he has a great portion. The question that some have is where is the accountability and process for discipline and restoration.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

ericlaw,

Thanks so much for stating my mind better then I presently can http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif!! Sorry folks, I've been mentally engaged in some pretty heavy mathematics today ... hence the lack of articulating my thoughts with the greatest clarity and charity!

... and I know minutus can relate to this (the math part)


Brian Bowman

[minutus (minutus)]

Brian,

I'm finishing up my final VB.Net class programming project as we speak, so my head is hurting as well. I'm sure you would do MUCH better at this.

Pressing_on, I apologize for being abrupt with you.

[bobbie (bobbie)]

you assume my comments are childish.Maybe the comment was. I can assure you they aren't without merit.The very thought that you need to speak privately proves my point.There is a "good old boys " atmosphere that that exists here.Call it what you will. People are being deceived.WHY? Why is exceptable that there are things you don't or don't need to know?This knowing is part of how a legitimate operation works.In this new atmosphere everything should be in the light. It's a protection.I'm not a biblical scholar, I just know that in the past myself and family members have been bambosseld..had!There is a history of people being covered and others being screwed over.Pardon my childishness.

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

For you folks that are in Paul's church. I say God bless ya!!! The Lord is so very unique, I would never judge again if someone was led or not to a certain church. Paul &amp; Barbara love the Lord. I believe you all when you say he has repented, and it's a new house of God.

After all, the Lord said David was a man after God's own heart, and he was a pig alot of his life LOL accornding to "normal" behavior LOL...

I think the best thing that ever could have happened to Paul was his dad turning his back on him.... now Paul can really be a man of God instead of the alternative...

God bless you all for being a part of his church.

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Dear friend in Christ,

No one wants to paint a scarlet letter on Paul. Please do not make the discipline and removal of an elder a personality issue. I wish all the best for Paul. Since you are asking for a scriptural answer I will do my best to answer.

1. Having clearly defined standards of conduct in a local assembly is very biblical it is not legalism. To lack biblical standards is to turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness. God’s grace always produces self control. If God winks at sin then Calvary would not be necessary. The process of removing an elder is always painful but the methodology that the leadership and congregation implements will impact the church’s health and its reputation in the community for many years.

2. To remove an elder from the office is not legalism. For instance, repentance involves turning from sin and self and trusting in Christ. This is a reasonable standard. After Christ forgave the prostitute HE told her to go and sin no more. Is this legalism? Of course not. It is godly standards. Does a church have the right and responsibility to hold their leaders to a standard of godly conduct? Of course. Is this Scriptural? Yes.

3. Does God require certain qualifications in those who will be the servant-leaders of HIS church? Yes.

You are looking for scriptural principles:

Principle #1: There are three main passages that deal with the character qualification of elders (synonymous with bishop, pastor, or presbyter) 1Timothy 3:2-7, Titus 1:6-9, 1 Peter 5:1-3. An elder should reflect these character traits in his life if he is to lead a church. In one word he is a MATURE believer. Prayerfully consider these passages. Godly character is essential to serve in the capacity of elder.

Principle #2: Elders are held to a stricter standard of conduct. If the elder is expected to conduct himself with all the characteristics of 1Timothy 3:1-14 in God’s house, then we can safely say he is judged (by the congregation and the world by nature of the office) by a stricter standard. We must not throw out the accountability to the congregation and to the scriptures as a whole. Also, and elder is to warn us about bad behavior. He cannot use his position to excuse or cover immorality!

I Timothy 3.15 “but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

James 3:1
“Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.” (NASB)

“Don't be in any rush to become a teacher, my friends. Teaching is highly responsible work. Teachers are held to the strictest standards.” (The Message)

Principle #3: The elder who sins needs to be corrected and disciplined in accord with I Timothy 5:19-22.

“Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. 20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. 21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. 22 Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin. (NASB)

The Message offers a good paraphrase:

“Don't listen to a complaint against a leader that isn't backed up by two or three responsible witnesses. 20 If anyone falls into sin, call that person on the carpet. Those who are inclined that way will know right off they can't get by with it. 21 God and Jesus and angels all back me up in these instructions. Carry them out without favoritism, without taking sides. 22 Don't appoint people to church leadership positions too hastily. If a person is involved in some serious sins, you don't want to become an unwitting accomplice. In any event, keep a close check on yourself.”

The process is similar to Matthew 18, two or more witnesses, however it is more specific and is found in I Timothy 5:19-22. These verses protect the leaders and the members. And, because of the office, the leader when guilty is brought before the elders and the elders can determine if the errant elder needs to be brought before the church for correction. They will determine the course of action based on the nature of the offense. The nature and extent of the sin, etc.is very serious and unspeakable. How can a man who cannot behave himself teach others to behave? God never desires us to follow a leader who is not following God or accountable to the church and the scriptures. The poor example for the office is a tragedy. Sure, the elder is forgiven but held to the standards that the office requires by the Chief Elder our LORD and SAVIOR Jesus Christ. To HIM be the glory in the church.

I hope this helps.

For Him,
Dave

(Message edited by dave drago on May 02, 2005)

[j_graz (j_graz)]

I think Jim Faucett pointed out that the majority of abuses happen in non-denominational churches because there is no greater body of government to keep leaders accountable.

As much as I hate to...I disagree with the premise here. There are plenty of failures in the movements and denominations that have outside governance. It is not their presence that prevents sin in leadership. Lack of accountability on a local level is produces what we are seeing all over Christianity.
The benefit of outside leadership - 'greater body'...is that there is policy to deal with failure once it occurs. Let's not mistake prevention for policy and visa versa.

Any local pastor needs (and if he's worth his weight in hymnals....wants) accountability. Someone nearby, watching our lives who is empowered to intervene for us. Not once we fail, but seeing it coming. Paracletes! Friends who watch trends and practices, not with suspicion, but with love and a realistic understanding of our weaknesses.
The problem with GG has been that the locals (even elders) were stripped of their power by false doctrines that taught a rebuke towards the leaders is wrong under any circumstance. Yuuuck!

[minutus (minutus)]

A "Band of Brothers" in spiritual battle is a powerful influence.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

J Graz, You're talking about some kind of accountability of the pastor to those within his congregation, right? Most pastors I've known don't seem to want to go there. But I agree that it's needed. There has to be someone who actually sits and listens to his/her messages on a regular basis.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

I agree with the two posts above. I never intended to say men are not accountible especially leaders, what I am saying is this happened about six years ago and he is not living in that sin, which means he has had a true change of heart, why then the bad mouthing do you know a mans heart I believe only God knows that. Maybe you need to hear him repent personally to you.
I am not sure what you are looking for. I believe what the scriptures say about this and only what the scriptures say. As one of you stated above repentence is a change a heart. Yes I believe sin has its consequences and I believe He and others are feeling those consequences. Have I personally heard him repent no. What I have heard is that he is really going forward with God and breaking away from things that he has been taught and going forward with his ministry implimenting the Sandy cove documents. I hear he is also accountible to all of his elders for correction if needed. I guess we can only wait to see the work of God.

[bobbie (bobbie)]

I am not personnally attacking Pastor Paul.I am simply asking where is the accountability? What prevents this ministry from becomming another Greater Grace? It can't just be based on a lick and a promise.Being told that I should go to one of the people mentioned earlier tells me I'm going to be set up..someone that would be watched and carefully handled.I think some of you just don't get it and it's hard for me to believe. Are you nuts or stupid.This is such a verbal organization...just say the right words ...we can talk our way out of or into anything.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Brian
I was in Greater Grace from the time I was a young child, 22 years to be exact,I left last year

[nonotone (nonotone)]

God Bless You Pressing_on. I"m glad you're out!


Brian Bowman

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Making the decision to get out of GG was a difficult (differ-cult) one, and then finally you made the break. You decided to take a stand and by faith follow Jesus and obey the word, just as you had done so many times before. "I know I'm doing the right thing, I'm finally getting away from all this nonsense."

So what do I do now? That really is the question. Having quit GG, do I seek to replicate my experience there? Do I go to another church just like it? What if I don't feel comfortable in one of these other churches? Is the reason for that I've been so indoctrinated into the ways of GG I am instantly critical of anyone else? There are other churches, other ways of doing it. Maybe I need a break from church. What do I do now God?

Who is the affiliate pastor with the humility and integrity to start out new with God? To review not only the profession of what he believes, but his preaching, teaching, outreach, counseling methods, administration, and government, all of which he learned at GG? Are you starting something new, or another authority driven organization based on your personality and gifts? Will you give your people the scriptures mixed with love and the fellowship of Christ, or will you simply regurgitate everything you learned at SSB/MBCS?

I have no answers to these questions, they are simply questions. But I've always felt if God called me out of this maybe I'm really supposed to change.

I'd also be interested in books/resources for those who are exiting cults. How do you start your new life?

We all have different experiences and I look forward to hearing about them.

Jim, wokbts@aol.com

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Pr. G,

I believe that the thinking around have a greater body of government, is that when the local church government is in error, you can go to the next level. I believe this is what the "Affiliates" want, correct?. They want a representative government. The new "affiliation" would likely be represented by each church right? So this new "affiliation" would not have a vatican like homebase controlling everything.

Remember, corruption occurs at the lowest levels. So the local government could be corrupt, exactly as we see in GGWO today.

[isabella (isabella)]

Bobbie said,

"I am not personnally attacking Pastor Paul.I am simply asking where is the accountability? What prevents this ministry from becomming another Greater Grace? It can't just be based on a lick and a promise.Being told that I should go to one of the people mentioned earlier tells me I'm going to be set up..someone that would be watched and carefully handled.I think some of you just don't get it and it's hard for me to believe. Are you nuts or stupid.This is such a verbal organization...just say the right words ...we can talk our way out of or into anything."

Also,

"does the Ministry in Havre de Grace have an open book policy? or rather do you know where the money from your tithes and offerings go? Do the Pastors have salaries, do they work other jobs as well? Are messages based on congregants personal lives....I'd rather be a piniata than an ostrich with my head in the sand."

Also,

"No thanks, I make it a practice to only get involved with 1 cult per lifetime.Maybe next time."

Re: Bobbie's posts:

You're right. That's the way it is.

There are many cults...TBS/GGWO is just one.

They can't win.

Christ has died...Christ has risen..Christ will come again.

Isabella

[isabella (isabella)]

Bobbie,

Tell your story on the 'Stories' thread.

I hope you do...I know that you know what's going on.

Love and prayers,
Isabella

[bobbie (bobbie)]

Thank you Isabella for the recognition. and also I thank Jim Kennedy for an opportunity to speak. I must admit that I don't yet feel that I can. Mostly I've been venting ,although I will admit to being very angry.You seem like someone I wish I would have known earlier in my life.It's all so complicated ,ya know what I mean?

[j_graz (j_graz)]

Hi Eric,

Actually, corruption begins in the heart and shows up on every level!
This outlines the real need for accountability - on every level.

Probably, the error that has done the most damage in GG, is the ‘Single Elder Led’ polity model being followed. The idea that one man holds absolute authority (garrisoned with aberrant theories about conspiracies, evil, marking etc...) breeds corruption of the worst kind.

Many of my pastor friends may disagree with me here but most systematic theologians agree that the most scripturally defendable model of church governance is ‘Plurality of Elders’ (assumes equality). What Pastor Stevens and the College propagated, and what I taught for years was “Plurality but not Equality” which is basically...stupidity! (ha)
If there is no equality then the ‘Elders’ cease being elders – overseers and rulers, which are the greek definitions for Bishop and Elder.
There can be a first among equals, or a man who is vested more respect due to wisdom and giftedness but the elders must sit at the decision table as equals.

As far as other ‘levels’ beyond that, I am one who still holds to the autonomy of the local church. The local assembly must be left to govern her own affairs and take the responsibility of the sometimes-unpleasant task of church discipline.

What has to be avoided are traditionally driven ecclesiastical structures that strip or subjugate the responsibility and corresponding authority from the local ‘elders’ and congregation. The responsibility to deal with issues and problems, among themselves as well as the congregation and the authotirity to impliment policy regarding that discipline.

Independence and automony however, shouldn’t mean isolation.
In a biblical affiliation or association, there can be great blessing and accountability, along with collaborating and synergy, but the atmosphere of accountability and transparency should encouraged on a local level first.

I for one am going to suggest to the other pastors who want to re-affiliate that we set up a ‘conflict resolution team’ that can be invited by churches to help out with difficulties, misunderstandings and such. Different than 'governance' in that they get invovled only when invited to.
Intervention without invitation = interference.

This raises the question of 'who invites them?' or "what if the idiot elders don't want them around?" Good questions which force local churches to think ahead and establish written policies that outline this kind of stuff.

Perhaps any single elder can invite intervention.
The 'conflict team' then asks the elder if he's handled things iaw Matt 18, 1 Ti 5, Gal 6 etc...
If I have an elder in my church and he has been appointed with the concurance of the other elders, then he should have the authority to ask for intervention on behalf of the church, without being considered a 'Judas' or a 'conspirator'.

Or a member of the congregation. For years here in SF, most of my folks got to meet Pastor Morin, and the elders in Rome at missions conferences and special events. I have made it know to everyone...often....that they should feel free to speak with him/them if and when I get stupid. It's been such a safeguard here, for me and my church. It breeds security within - that folks know they have a pastor who is accountable to a lving, predefined organization.
Since the chruch is Rome is so loving and supportive to our church, it has been very effective and yet informal. Most of my folks have met and spoken with the leadership there.

We are also moving to membership. For years I fought it, because I didn’t understand its value.
The necessity of formal commitment and the accountability of operating under pledge and covenant towards one another is very powerful and very beautiful to me.
The congregation (of whom I am one) needs to make a commitment to one another and publicly pledge this commitment. It’s like a wedding....
There can really be no church discipline or accountability without a church membership.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Jim Kenny
I know what you mean. I am very cautious with my thinking right now. I seem to critique a lot of what I hear. The problem is I don't want to be so critical that I never learn to trust another pastor fully again.
Don't know how long it will take to get to the trusting stage again. When I read this board and hear people from years back it makes me feel that there is a long road ahead to overcoming the current indoctrination. I know that not everything I was taught was wrong, I have grown, but there is so much to sift through at this point. I seem to question alot, maybe not always outwardly but I think and listen very cautiously when hearing another pastor speak
I really want to be able to trust the churches that are going on to implement the Sandy Cove documents. I believe God will bless them mightily because they took a stand against people that where so powerful in their life, but how can you go wrong if you stand for truth. How can God not bless this.
It is a very scary place, but what is the purpose of having faith if I never have to use it. God will, lead, guide, and direct all of us.
After all we are still in His will, where alive aren't we, guess Gods not through with us yet. It's scary but exciting.

[shat_happens (shat_happens)]

When is Rome going to change their website? they said they were doing so...any timeling as to when this might happen?

they could always put up the link...
http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Well, you felt it coming on so here it is--and it is with no small degree of reluctance.

Someone above wrote:

<font color="0000ff">"Can you show where in scripture it says that a Pastor should step down for a significant time. I am in no way stating that Pastor Paul did not do wrong, I just don't see a biblical premise for him to step down. Also, It sounds very presumptuous on your part to think that Pastor Paul lacks the ability on his own, thru the Holy Spirit in him to re-think, study and teach scripture apart from what he was taught by CHS. I know that his history is much deeper than ours, but he is a man seeking God. Let's give him an opportunity to follow the Holy Spirit's leading for his life, and encourage him that he didn't just give up.
As far as his repentance goes, he has publicly apologized for many whom he has hurt, and done so a few times from the pulpit. This has been stated on more than one thread."</font>

I want to preface my statement for those who have know with what fervor I have dealt with this in this way: I have not an ounce of hatred, ill-will, an attitude of holier-than-y'all, or any other malicious intent towards Paul Stevens. I have counseled closely with the Langs concerning this entire episode. I am not approaching this subject from a view from above, but rather from below. I am twice the sinner that Paul Stevens is.

Having said that, let's see if we can take the personality out of the equation, shall we?

Imagine that you have sent your daughter to university to study English. She does well, and is particularly influenced by one professor of Elizabethan literature. He opens new vistas for her, she grows in her respect for him. She excels expectations and is thrilled in his company. Yet although he is a married man, and this student is dependent upon him--he begins a sexual relationship with her. The relationship is discovered by the authorities, his wife, her parents, etc. In almost any university setting this behavior would be categorized as moral turpitude and would be grounds for permanent dismissal. Which of you with young female students would feel secure sending your daughter to study with this fellow?

Imagine there is a CEO of a large corporation who hires a female protoge. He promises to mentor her through the hoops and hurdles of corporate progress. She learns from him and is a quick study and a capable employee. She sees him as her 'door' to the top. Then he seduces her. Repeat the above scenario. His wife finds out. Her parents, the board of directors, etc. This is called 'fraternization.' If I am not mistaken, a similar instance in the US Military is illegal and prosecutable. Should officers in the military face no prosecution for this crime, should they still lead our troops? Should CEOs like this lead huge companies without scrutiny? Should we trust them with our investments?

What if a licensed marriage and family counselor is counseling a couple. He sees their strife. He knows all the problems of their most intimate life. He has heard both parties pour out their hearts to him. They have both placed their trust in him for their emotional health as they would a doctor for their physical health. Then the counselor begins an affair with the wife, telling her that it is best for her to abandon her husband and children. He tempts her away and they move out of state. He sets up practice in a new area--yet pursued by the cuckolded husband. The authorities find out, etc. Do you think he will retain his license? Do you think he should still be allowed to practice?

And finally, the President of the United States of America is tempted by a young intern...


I am not saying that these individuals are not restorable. I am saying that trust needs to be re-established and proven. That takes time.

The scriptures require that elders (which includes pastors) should be above reproach--and that they should be of good reputation with those outside the church. This takes time to re-establish.

Some might like to quote the verse:

Romans 11:29 (ESV)
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Is this passage speaking about all callings? Is it speaking about 'gifts' with regard to being a pastor or elder? I think the context does not allow that.

Here is the whole context:
Romans 11:26-29 (ESV)
And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
[27] "and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
[28] As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. [29] For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

The passage is speaking about election. It is not speaking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit as in 1 Cor. 12. It is speaking about the plan of God to include Gentiles into the 'calling' of Israel as a people. We are often very quick to say, "There is one interpretation, but many applications." To apply this to personal call to ministry and the requisite gifts is to twist the Scripture to our own destruction.

If we were to apply this Scripture to mean that no sin could revoke the call to ministry, Rom.11:26-29 would become repugnant to 1 Tim. 5:19-20 in the case of elders and to this verse in the case of an entire church:

Rev. 2:5 (ESV)
Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Very plainly, continuing in ministry for this church depends on repentance and the threat of removal of the lampstand is conditional to it.

When we leave a church like GGWO, it is a very good idea indeed to revisit how we handle the Scriptures--especially if we come from a tradition where they are handled deceitfully for so very long by the one at the top of the organization.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

I may have been misunderstood concerning my view of polity. Let me clarify a little if I may.

None of the three forms of polity found in most evangelical churches are problem free. They each have strengths and weaknesses inherent to them because they involve government by sinful humans. The church does not exist in a single polity, but all churches should strive to be biblical in their polity.

One of the creeds says: "I believe one, holy, catholic and apostolic church..." There is one church made up of all believers (and we Presbyterians believe the children of believers are included)--this church is holy; set apart for God. It is catholic or universal--it includes all believers from every era. It is militant and triumphant simultaneously. It is apostolic; it is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets--this means what they have taught as a body of doctrine. This phrase follows on the heels of the one that begins, "I believe in the Holy Spirit, Lord and Giver of Life..." The church is the work of the Holy Spirit.

All forms of polity in evangelical churches include participation by the congregation in one way or the other in the governing of the church. Even in Episcopalian polity, the presbyters, vicars, deacons and other leaders are confirmed by the congregation and chosen out of its ranks. While there may be a 'rule by bishops' over the local churches. Bishops must be approved and elected by the diocese they seek to represent.

In most Baptist churches, there is an autonomy of the the local church. The local church ordains its own men--elders, deacons and pastors. There is a congregational vote on many decisions affecting the life of the church.

Presbyterian polity involves congregational approval by vote of all elders, including the teaching elders. Elders are members of a regional presbytery which serves as a 'court of appeal' from the local session of elders which is the church's most immediate court. There is further appeal to a national body--the General Assembly, to which overtures may be made by individuals, congregations or presbyteries.

Episcopal and Presbyterian churches are more connectional than Baptistic churches. In this way the local church is not as autonomous as a Baptist church.

In my view, the concept of the 'One Pastor Teacher" or the 'Senior Pastor' is one of the greatest ills of the American church.

Why? Because it focuses 'ministry' on a single individual. Imagine someone walking into your church and asking, "Where's the minister?" Is the answer, "You're looking at them!" Or is it, "There HE is." No one needs this kind of scrutiny. No wonder there is pastoral 'burn-out'. No wonder we are nation driven by following personalities. No wonder when one man falls so many are damaged.

Imagine you go to a church where the elders are all able teachers and they share the pulpit ministry. Imagine members of the church body leading in prayers during worship, reading the scriptures, leading in the communion service. Imagine the church ministering in the neighborhood it thrives in--in the spheres of education, economy and work, art and music, industry and yes, even in government and politics. Is there any part of the world where Christ has not sent us?

When we have the One Pastor Teacher Dog and Pony Show-we go through all sorts of turmoil when he must eventually leave--because of retirement, death or some other reason. Here what Paul said to Timothy:

2 Tim. 2:2 (ESV)
and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

Men who are elders ought never to leave a void when they go. This is a Scriptural mandate. This is apostolic doctrine continuing throughout history. The message is to be continually entrusted to others who will take it to the uttermost parts of the earth until the Lord's will is done on earth as it is in heaven and till His Kingdom comes!

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

I thank you DD and JF for your answers; however, I still don't see in black and white where the scriptures say that an elder or pastor MUST STEP DOWN for a while.

I can see from what you wrote why it might be "suggested"; however, unless I missed something, it doesn't really say step down for a season?

Did I miss something? Thanks you two...

Inquiring minds want to know... LOL

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Many good points above.

I must say that to state that most abuses of this sort are in non-denominational churches is a rather broad accusation - unless there is well researched, statistical data to validate it that I missed seeing. Don't mean to insight a debate on a rather banal point, but in defense of hundreds - maybe thousands - of independent churches who have no such problems, I thought that a supporting voice was appropriate.

Generally if a leader of any group is not full of him or her self and has some level of integrity (moral, spiritual, etc.) and education the organization has a good chance of operating within the bounds of appropriate guidelines/structure.

I am absolutely not implying that checks and balances are not needed - accountability is always necessary in any organizational structure!

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Here's the "heathen" (Martian) view on non-denominational churches:

1. Non-denominationals form due to some disagreement on SOMETHING with mainstream denominations. The mainstream denominations are either too conservative, not conservative enough, etc., etc. The important question to ask is "why have you formed your own denomination?" If the answer is that our annointed Man of God, Pastor For Life got caught in bed with the wife of a deacon and this decieved and off deacon refuses to recognize that this sin is "under the blood" and is going to burn the church down, so we're forming our own chuch so people don't ask a bunch of "questions", then you may want to look elsewhere. Bottom line, it's important to know the history of this group because the reasons for starting a new church are not often given, but will shed much light on the "ministry".

2. Since a non-denominational is usually a fairly new church, there is no history of how doctrines are applied and there is no accountability other than to themselves. Please note that "we are here to serve God", or "we are accountable to the Holy Spirit" is absolutely no guarantee that any sort of orthodox doctrine is followed.

3. Non-denominationals frequently (but not always) allow "ordination" of persons with absolutely no formal theological training whatsoever. One poster on this board proudly denounced ALL mainstream theological education. Often, only a person's "calling", identified by people with no formal training of any sort, is the only prerequisite to become a pastor.

It is for these reasons that I will personally NEVER attend a non-denominational church. There are certainly some good ones out there, but I have personally sat through "godly" sermons on why Jesus is happy that we have nuclear weapons (Christian Serviceman's Center, RAF Bentwaters, UK, 1984), that Black people are inferior to White (Eagle's Way Church, Georgia, 1991), voting Democrat is a sin and an abomination to God and that the Republican Party is God's Party (Church on Fire, Georgia 1999), etc. They preach these doctrines with absolutely no reviewing authority. Couple this with a charismatic leader who is accountable to no one, and you have GGWO.

This is ONLY my experience. I haven't been to every non-denominational church.

[kirk (kirk)]

Boss,
You KICK ASS!!!!!

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Boss, many of the reasons you give are reasons why I attend a CONFESSIONAL church. All churches claim to confess that they hold to the Bible. What is commonly up for grabs is what exactly they mean by "holding to the Bible." Many churches publish a "statement of faith"--these are usually brief and open to much "interpretation". While even weightier confessions still may incite debate--the fence around the arena is more defined.

BJ, to answer your question--and please don't take this as a smart-ass answer, it isn't intended that way, is that the Bible doesn't read like a book of statements by Chairman Jesus. We don't look under 1 Church Government and Discipline Chapter 6 section iv subheading 'g.' However Paul does give qualities and traits which must be present in elders and those qualities and traits must be recognizable by others--including outsiders:

1 Tim. 3:1-7 (ESV)
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. [2] Therefore an overseer <font color="ff0000"><u>must</u> be above reproach</font>, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, [3] not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. [4] He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, [5] for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? [6] He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover, <font color="ff0000"><u>he must be</u> well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil</font>.


Being above reproach is not a quality which one arrives at or is restored to immediately. It is a quality that can only be determined by a period of observation. How do we know that? The passage above warns against the ordination or choosing of an elder who is a novice--he must be observed first. If he is found to exhibit the requisite qualities, then the ordaining body may proceed, if not--then they should not.

Later Paul warns:

<font color="ff0000">1 Tim. 5:22 (ESV)
Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor take part in the sins of others; keep yourself pure.</font>

This passage does not just apply to recent converts. Paul inserts a comment about Timothy taking a little wine for his stomach at this very point--perhaps implying the stress which can be caused by the process of choosing good leaders.

Then he says:

1 Tim. 5:24-25 (ESV)
The sins of some men are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later. [25] So also good works are conspicuous, and even those that are not cannot remain hidden.

The words "before" and "later" imply to most of us the concept of time. Some sins show up "early" in time, some "later" in time. The TIME is important to observe and prove the man--the purpose of the observation time is to detect sinful ways. We all have sinful ways. We all have weaknesses. But elders are held to a higher standard particularly because of the scrutiny under which they are held. Paul has made this clear using the imperative term "must be" in his list of requirements for office of elder.

If however you are looking for a passage that says:
"Any pastor or elder who commits adultery must step down from office for at least ___ months or years" then you will search in vain for it. Not all situations are the same. However, I think if you will read Wayne Hogarth's letter elsewhere you will see that others share the views I've expressed here.

Being the "husband of one wife" does not mean married only once. Remember the list is made up mainly of observable qualities. The passage means that an elder must be "a one woman kind of man"--he must be observably faithful over time to his wife. How else would we know what kind of man he is? This is also not a quality to which one is immediately restored through some sort of 'rebound',though we may certainly be forgiven instantly of sin.

We need as believers who have been in an aberrant church with aberrant doctrine to learn the difference between repentance, forgiveness of sin and qualification for and restoration to the office of elder. They do not in any way amount to the same concept.

somebonus@yahoo.com

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on May 03, 2005)

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

This is from Wayne Hogarth's letter:

"It is necessary at this point to address the matters of Pastor Paul. Before God, I am continuously praying for him and his entire family. When he fell, he was reprimanded on several occasions over a three year period, and yet continued to preach, as well as taught the marriage classes. This was wrong. Also, the very large sum of money that was paid without going through the insurance company, to compensate the damaged parties was taken directly out of the general fund without the body’s knowledge and consent. This may have been legally permissible but ethically questionable. Moreover, to go more than three years of not defining these issues, when they became public knowledge throughout the world, is wrong."

(italics above are mine)

[minutus (minutus)]

Hogarth hit the nail on the head. Serious lack of integrity or compassion for the victims of pastoral violation on the part of the ministry and the men (father &amp; son) would cause any objective observer to question their fitness to pastor a dog, let alone a church. They spiritually raped a family, hid their transgression, slandered them, and then fleeced the flock to pay for their sin. The life patterns and motivations that led to such behavior don't just disappear because someone says "I'm sorry" and sheds a few tears. Just as those love an alcoholic will face them with the truth and stand with them in a recovery process, so those who love Paul Stevens should do the same. I hope he truly is gifted and called, but I hope more he deals with the emptiness that led to such behavior before more of it is inflicted on the church.

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

“I thank you DD and JF for your answers; however, I still don't see in black and white where the scriptures say that an elder or pastor MUST STEP DOWN for a while.
I can see from what you wrote why it might be "suggested"; however, unless I missed something, it doesn't really say step down for a season?” Did I miss something? Thanks you two... “

BJ,

With Jim, I must also say that I have not an ounce of hatred, ill-will, an attitude of holier-than-y'all, or any other malicious intent towards Paul Stevens. I am not approaching this subject from a view from above, but rather from below. I am twice the sinner that Paul Stevens is. The body of elders must exercise wisdom when disciplining and removing an elder. Each case will have various nuances but principle and standards of conduct must be clear. The following seven principles must be considered when dealing with an abusive Elder.

1. Integrity above Approach
What I am saying is that the standards of pastoral conduct are that a pastor reveals integrity above reproach. The New Testament gives us basic guidelines on who can hold the office. These are standards. This is setting up reasonable expectations for the pastors of a church. This is not legalism it is godly conduct.

2. Applying Forgiveness
Forgiveness is granted but discernment must also be used. If a mature group of men had assembled and decided how to handle Paul, then the outcome might have been different. They would have considered what is best for him, the other party and the congregational health. They did not because they cannot. They do not meet the requirements of 1Timothy 3.

3. Dealing with the Sin
When a pastor does sin, the elders need to address the issue. And, if the very board of elders has and is held to the same high standards then they will discipline him accordingly so that others will be warned. However, In GG the collective body of the elders is not effective because there are some obvious and glaring integrity issues.

4. Revisiting the High Standards of Conduct
What GG in Baltimore misses is that elders are held to a higher standard. The permissiveness towards sin is appalling. There is no accountability or consequences. Sadly, Paul was handled the way GG deals with all sin- rebound and move on. Their current system allows for this type of abuse to go unchecked. Until they see God’s standards for an elder this problem will reappear throughout the organization. And, how will they handle it? What standards will the abuser be held to? The only precedent is to wink, conceal and ‘cover’ because he repented. This is MC HAMMER THEOLOGY…NANANA…CAN’T TOUCH THIS. Being an elder does not confer the Divine Rights of Kings.

5. When to Remove the Elder
Now, does the bible say remove him? No, not exactly. But, it does rely on godly men treating an elder who abused his office with a firm but loving approach. Could Paul have been restored to the office? I think because of the length and circumstances behind the issue the answer is obvious. The Catholic Church is disciplining their sexual predators. Paul was a predator. If a congregation affirms a man to the office of elder they should have the ability to remove him when he is incompetent. The sin and the impact on the congregation must be considered. I think God’s flock deserves better. Again, this is not legalism it is standards.

6. Considering the church’s testimony and Using Good Judgment
As an Army captain I was held to a very high standard. Fraternization was punishable under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. If a doctor seduces and abuses his patient he/she is banned and faces jail time. If a teacher seduces a student he/ she is removed and pending the results of an investigation he/ she is exonerated or faces criminal charges. If the world can do this, should it not be a higher standard in the church of The Living God? This cavalier attitude of sin spits in the face of my blessed Redeemer’s finished work. The church loves, forgives but there are reasonable standards of conduct in God’s house.

7. Swallowing the Bitter Pill of Reality
Sadly, I am amazed that the children of this world have more insight into accountability than the children of light in America. I am reminded of the parable that Jesus spoke in Luke 16:8, “The master praised his dishonest manager for looking out for himself so well. That's how it is! The people of this world look out for themselves better than the people who belong to the light.” We need to look after our churches and protect the flock from abuse. When an elder serves he agrees to uphold the biblical standards. The path is narrow and the light is bright in this area. The standard is exacting and uncompromising.

Proverbs 4.18
But the path of the [uncompromisingly] just and righteous is like the light of dawn, that shines more and more (brighter and clearer) until [it reaches its full strength and glory in] the perfect day [to be prepared]. (Amplified)

I hope this helps to clarify.

For Him,
Dave

(Message edited by dave drago on May 03, 2005)

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

oh my gosh...the MC HAMMER referance was GENIUS!!! Oh, the rest was great too....

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Very well done, Jim and Dave. Thank you. Makes lots of sense.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Pr. G.,

I think we are saying the same thing here. Corruption starts at the lowest level and moves up and out. Even a board of equals can be corrupted, and bylaws can be over looked. We just saw this happen. I totaly agree that the autonomy of the local church should not be tampered with. But you say your self that there would be a "Conflict Resolution Team" Where does this team come from? I am guessing a greater body of government, like the affiliation of churches. The local assembly and elders still have to submit to this process. I am not talking about having a huge combersome government that can invade a church.
I guess the question is what will the new affiliation look like. It will be representative of all the ministries in the affiliation, or else you would just have another GGWO situation. This representative affiliation is the government. If the corruption takes the local assembly, meaning all the elders, what recource is there? The people will look to the other affiliates for help.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Perhaps it is the same as our natrion and constitution, Thomas Jeeferson said that it would take a revolution every forty years to preserve it.

Well, we have not had the revolutions, and our constitution is being raped and prostituted.

Sounds just like the average church/denomination government, doesn't it?

[j_graz (j_graz)]

1. Even a board of equals can be corrupted, and bylaws can be over looked. We just saw this happen.

Not really Eric, we did not just see a board of equals do anything. There is no board of equals in Baltimore, its a Single-Elder dominated culture that trancens any documetention they may even now claim to have. Their constitution although recently adjusted, was very imbalanced.


2. But you say your self that there would be a "Conflict Resolution Team" Where does this team come from? I am guessing a greater body of government, like the affiliation of churches.

I am (along with several others )suggesting that the Affiliation be lead by a board of elected pastors from the participating churches, each with term limits of say 3 years. The resolution team could be headed by one of the board members who has recruited other pastors or leaders in the affiliation. I say this as my opinion, this has not been agreed by all of the other pastors, so bear with me please. This is going to take alot of prayer, time, arguing and so forth.

As I said above, a member of the church should be able to contact the affiliation or resultion team if they need to. It is not an endall to this kind of problem. I mean let's face it, if the leaders of a local church teach hogwash and live lousy long enough with any checks and balances, they will create a culture in their churches that makes spiritual mediocrity acceptable.

I for one will be moving very slowly into any new affiliation, their is much to be worked out and much to be invited in.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

P. Graz - may I make one additional suggestion??? The Southern Baptist (at least they used to, help me out here Dave Drago) and Assemblies of God both send "lay persons" elected by the congregations to the annual conference, which among other things solicits input into the governing rules.

[j_graz (j_graz)]

That's an excellent suggestion....

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Good governance has:

1. Written Rules.
2. Accountability for everyone - cheques and balances.
3. A membership that is paying attention to 1 &amp; 2

Why have an official affiliation at all?

GGWO failed at #3.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Pr. G.,
Well said, with your last post I know we are on the same page. Affiliation by representation from all the churches.

[search4truth (search4truth)]

Has it been posted that P. Stevens is hospitalized? Someone just told me this. Is this true? Any details available?

Search4truth

[anova (anova)]

Someone on another thread said Junior is in the hospital, has just found out about all the churches disafilliating, thinks it's Schaller's fault, and wants Schaller to step down.

The source sounds convincing, but no one has corroborated it, yet.

[search4truth (search4truth)]

anova,

Who wants P.Schaller to step down? And you said he just found our about all the disaffiliating Pastors? Sorry if I'm buggin' for clarifications.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

God bless!
search4truth

[anova (anova)]

Junior, aka Carl, is said to want Schaller to step down. Yes, they say he just found out about the disafilliating pastors. If he's in detox, he's probably been on a downward spiral.

[search4truth (search4truth)]

anova,

I thought that P. Stevens kinda wanted P.Schaller to be elected... Why now the change again? Oh, I'm not well informed, I guess.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif

Search4truth

[yogi (yogi)]

Pastor Stevens is a junkie.
He changes his mind at a whim
and everybody scrambles to "cover"
his messes! VERY DISFUNCTIONAL LOYALTY.
Kirk said it best, "Battered Wife Syndrome"
on the part of the elders who spread the
myth down to the congregants.

yogi

[ski (ski)]

If it is true about forcing Schaller to step down, then it mean the final end of GGWO.
Very soon the new organisation will be formed based on current anti-Schaller movement, since even more will disaffiliate looking at the weak Baltimore. It is revolution in GGWO. CHS will be an idol, but not for worshiping. I mean that the name of CHS still might be useful for supporting the auhtority, yet with opposite view.
I wonder who will be the first speaker of a new church parliament - it will answer many questions about the revolution.
I don't want to offend anybody, but doesn't it funny that the revolution was made not by Jeannie Byrne or any other FNers (Jeannie, I may be wrong it. FN has done great job for recovering and helping people out, but not the revolution). It was made by "inners" and only when it became evident about CHS is close to pass away. This all makes my corrupted mind to think about real background of this "revolution". Don't get me wrong. I admit that my opinion is rather negative and I sincerely hope that the new organisation will be healthy and biblical. Huge changes needed for that in each and every single church.


Sergei Kiselev

P.S.
Poor Schaller. To be fired by CHS only for defending and covering the same CHS.

[minutus (minutus)]

Sergei,

The situation is reminiscent of transitions as Lenin and Stalin neared the ends of their lives. God bless you in your work.

Dave Carson

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Hurry, hurry, hurry, get your programs right here! Can't tell the players without a program. Can't tell the players with a program, but hey, at least you will have a list of possible players.

GGC is beginning ot sound like an Abbott and Costello routine,,,,,,

On payday who picks up the check for the first baseman? Thats right. Whats right? Who. But who gets the paycheck? Tha's right.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Didn't someone go to Mexico and assassinate Trotsky?

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Yes, they did. But Jim, what, er,,, are you suggesting here?http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

[jeannie (jeannie)]

With an axe, right?

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

There's a-gonna be a hangin'!

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

JOSEY: When I get to liking someone, they ain't around long.

LONE WATIE: I notice when you get to disliking someone they ain't around for long neither.

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Get ready, little lady. Hell is coming to breakfast!

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Hmmmm, Charlie Daniels, tall tree, short rope. Hmmm.

[anova (anova)]

"That's not edifying."

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Hey. we could have a posse and then sing with Toby Keith and Willie Nelson, "Whiskey for my men, beer for our horses."http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif