How to create a Cult a few easy lessons [Archive]

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steve_quinlan (steve_quinlan)

05-03-2005, 11:03 PM

How to create a Cult (even if you don’t think that is what you are doing.)
Lesson One

I do not believe that I or Tom Schaller or even Carl Stevens, for that matter ever set out to create a cult. But that is what they (we) did and continue to do (even if it is unintentional). Here is Lesson One in how it is done. I excerpt from the transcript of last Sunday morning’s message. (I assume the transcript to be reliable. If it is not, there are plenty of other messages from 1972 onwards that convey the same sort of thing.) Schaller said,

Great odds are against us
and that’s a very good starting point.

Because our church is unique,
Not….it shouldn’t be and perhaps it isn’t
but in my personal experience
I’m very appreciative of our church.

I can distinctly remember feeling this way – that our church is unique. We have a unique take on the gospel, a unique message, a unique calling as disciples, a unique mission to the world. The feeling that our group is unique – that we are like no other group has the distinct effect of diminishing every other group vis-à-vis US. “I’m not trying to suggest that we are exclusive. We are not. How can the hand say to the foot ‘I have no need of you?’” No indeed, we are not exclusive, but we are unique. Those others may be Christians (we can afford to allow them that), but they are, at best, ordinary, run of the mill Christians. We, on the other hand, are unique Christians, superior in unction, insight, wisdom, and calling. This “we’ve heard from Doctor Stevens and his amazing teachings and insight.” We are not ordinary, we are in fact a lot like “The believers in the Sudan who are now being killed and murdered for their faith.” Or we are like “…the believers in Iran who are thrown in jail.” Indeed, “We need the believers in Russia, and in China and around the world.” But what we don’t need are the believers down the street. We don’t need the lowly, compromised, conventional Baptists, Methodists, Catholics or Presbyterians. To leave us, even if it is to be a part of one of these or some other nominally Christian group, is necessarily to choose something inferior. Here is where you may receive the “highest education.” Here is where you may experience the greatest sense of purpose. Here is where you can be a part of not only a local church, but also an “amazing” World Outreach. To choose what is inferior over what is clearly superior is to choose what is less than God’s best for your life. Now why would you want to choose less than God’s best for your life? Can it be that you think that you know better than God? Can it be that your discipleship is adulterated with intellectual pride or a base love for the world? Can it be that you are, in your secret heart, rebellious against God’s will? Well yes, it may be since the human heart is deceitful and wicked above all things. We should, therefore be afraid of our heart and question our motives. “And this verse here is an amazing part of the picture that is so important to us as a church. Because I am afraid, left to myself, I’m afraid what I could do, left to myself, by my own self, I’m afraid what I could do, what I can think, and what I can say.”

One of the many ways we know that our church is unique is that there are “great odds against us.” Jesus was unique and there were great odds against him. So when we see these forces of opposition lined up against us, when we see many turning away and forsaking our fellowship, then we see how much like Jesus we are. “The servant is not greater than his master.” If they hated and persecuted Jesus, then we should expect the same. This is simply another proof of the truth that we are unique. Yes, we are human and sometimes make mistakes, but the Holy Spirit is powerfully and wonderfully with us and we are unique. Here endeth the first Lesson.

ericlaw (ericlaw)

05-03-2005, 11:38 PM

Steve,
Incredible insight. If you could have been in my mind when I was in GG, this is how I thought about the ministry. So much pride, so much arrogance. I use to say, "I am so thankful that God called me right here when I got saved. I didn't have to make my way through all the 'other' churches." The mentality is that you have come to the apex of christianity, to leave would be leaving the geographical will of God. To leave would be turning you back on the greatest work of God in the modern age, we would even say GG is a "Book of Acts" church.

dawn (dawn)

05-03-2005, 11:39 PM

Oh my God. I was there. I remember Steve. I bought the "unique", We were separated into it, even against our families, other churches, afraid to leave for visits away from there. We felt aloof from others, they just didn't know how special we were. We just had to tell them some how. Every thing we knew before was irelevant. Our talents were insignificant, any lowly job was serving the cause. We had a King finally who would give us what we had been seeking for. We didn't understand the fear then. I do now. Jesus was being prempted and we didn't know what was happening. ( years there, and 9yrs. groveling in the effects of it can't be described. Finally, the truth is coming out. Thank you Steve.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

05-03-2005, 11:40 PM

Steve, I think the thing about uniqueness is that every believer and even unbeliever has it. God's never made two of us the same. Respect for the uniqueness of others is what is lacking in this organization. God did not call many noble. Instead, He made many noble. But that nobility can look different in each one and still reflect the Son.

dave_drago (dave_drago)

05-03-2005, 11:48 PM

Steve,

1. Jim F. and I were chatting about this today. The irony that the more the truth is revealed about the organization the more they become convinced of the justice of their cause. And, the deception just runs deeper. The truth is denied and shunned. The heart hardens more.

2. Much like Pharoah's heart after each miracle...more and more he hardened his heart to the truth and called Moses a troublemaker. He did not realize it was Divine justice. Even after the firstborn died he still pursued! (Talk about your cult leader).

3. Schaller sees the exposure on FN and Sandy Cove as persecution and God's blessings are sure to follow. Marr said the same thing last year about FN when it was just ramping up. This causes them to circle the wagons and muster the blind and misguided loyalties of their faithful even more.

4. Schaller is totally sold out to the righteousness of their 'unique message.' He views Factnet and Sandy Cove as just another attack on their 'fruitful ministry'. It hardens his heart to his own deception.

5.Notice the contrasts. Notice not only the absence of American christians but also the inference that they are persecuted in America like these martyrs in countries that persecute believers. They are being 'murdered' by the words of others inside and outside the camp.

6. Therefore, We need to be careful, not proud, walk carefully there is sin in the camp, leaders are rebelling and deceived, we are the two don't be the ten ad naseum. Carl did a good job of indoctrinating his spiritual son. I remember well these messages from CHS. Same song and dance just a different entertainer. Shaller took good notes.

(Message edited by dave drago on May 03, 2005)

ericlaw (ericlaw)

05-04-2005, 12:27 AM

Dave,

3. Schaller sees the exposure on FN and Sandy Cove as persecution and God's blessings are sure to follow. Marr said the same thing last year about FN when it was just ramping up. This causes them to circle the wagons and muster the blind and misguided loyalties of their faithful even more.

Many have expressed that mentality to me. "God is shaking things up....This is a test and a trial of our faith....you shouldn't leave when the times get hard"
I say, you better believe the times are hard, becuase God is dealing with the sins of the ministry. This is not a test, it is reaping what you sow.

ericlaw (ericlaw)

05-04-2005, 12:34 AM

A friend told me about this rap P. Schibelli did about a month ago. In this rap he is shouting "you don't leave your church!!"
I'm thinking, if there was ever a time to leave this would be your cue.

(Message edited by ericlaw on May 03, 2005)

steve_quinlan (steve_quinlan)

05-04-2005, 12:44 AM

How to create a Cult
Lesson Two: Encourage a morbid introspection and self-doubt.

The thing that we read in the scripture that we are warned about, is our self sufficiency, our ability to live this life without God.

To learn the language, to live the life, to warm the seat, to say all the right things
and do the right things, but II Chronicles 25:2, but not with a perfect heart.

The Lord weighs the spirits, not just our actions, and not just our words, but He knows our spirit, and what spirit we are of.

Can it be true that most people are not entirely pleased with themselves? Can it be that many of us would wish to change some things about ourselves? Is anyone completely altruistic? Are we not driven by motivations that are sometimes, perhaps often, less than selfless, loving or noble? For many years how powerfully aware I have been that I am not the disciple of Christ that I wish to be. But then again, if I truly wished to be such a disciple, would I not be? What is holding me back? Even if I am obedient in my actions and faithful in my confession, I may still be "off." How do I know this? I know it because, "The Lord weighs the spirits, not just our actions, and not just our words, but He knows our spirit, and what spirit we are of.

Do you mean I may be of the "wrong spirit?" It is possible. Look deeply into your own soul. What do you see there? More importantly, what does God see there? Does God see “a perfect heart?” Does God see “absolute surrender, obedience and trust in God, and the Holy Spirit giving us His nature moment by moment.” Or does God see someone who is too proud? That’s tragic because God says, “I’m not going to reveal Myself to the proud.” I’m not going to give, I’m not going to show my ways, unless there is humility.” “And I will not pour my Spirit out upon any believer, unless I find that believer at the cross.”

You must not trust yourself. You must not trust your feelings. You must not allow “creeping pride” to keep you from absolute surrender. God only blesses “where there is a surrender and an understanding that my ways are not right, and I would rather lose my life to gain His. I would rather lose my opinion to gain His wisdom. I’d rather lose my words to gain His Word. I’d rather know Him, then to know myself.”

Now then, you are nearly right with God. You have been saved and are being sanctified and things are nearly right. A complete surrender is finding its way into your soul. And to what shall you surrender? To God’s forgiveness? To God’s gracious and absolute pardon? To God’s direction for your life? Yes, yes, and the to anointed word being spoken to you now? Yes, yes, and to God’s anointed leaders? Yes, and even if they sound arrogant and aggressive? Oh yes, for you know how your understanding is darkened. You know how “Some misunderstand our assertiveness, our spiritual authority, and our privileges in the Kingdom of God, as a kind of pride and a kind of arrogance. “ You have examined your soul and what have you seen there? Do you really think that you are in a place to “judge” God’s Holy Spirit leaders? Such people “need to be careful: Judge not lest you be judged… Matthew 7:1, because humility is really summed up with absolute surrender, obedience and trust in God, and the Holy Spirit giving us His nature moment by moment.” Do not trust yourself. Trust God and trust us, for we are God’s leaders and are here meeting God’s deeply felt need. For “God needs leadership on the earth, the right kind, that’s the Holy Spirit kind.” (Applaud now.) Now how do you feel? Here endeth the Second Lesson.

isabella (isabella)

05-04-2005, 04:01 AM

SQ: Thanks for posting this thread.

Exclusivity is always part of a the cult-personality.

Jim Jones and his People's Temple thought they were...Heaven's Gate also comes to mind...

Thank you in advance for lesson two.

Isabella

P.S: I've decided not to send a plane and not to put you up in a plush hotel.

You know, in India, when someone asks you if you'll have a cup of tea, you're supposed to say no the first time around (they may not have any tea). If they ask you again, you can say yes. They have some tea and they're willing to give some to you.

The moral to this story is:

If someone says they'll send a plane and put you in a plush hotel, you're supposed to say no the first time. Always wait for a second invitation.

P.S.S: I remember listening to you in Lenox during my visits there.
Complete sentences..that's what I liked.

itsahokes (itsahokes)

05-04-2005, 01:23 PM

Isabella, those complete sentences with real words were part of what I liked also about Steve's preaching/teaching. I never could understand why anyone would even listen to the gobbledy gook coming out of the mouth of CHS. (not sure gobbledy gook is a real word but hey!)

It's been a mystery to me how intelligent people could have been taken in by such peculiarities as were wholly evident in CHS from the beginning. But the group obviously did attract plenty of intelligent and fun loving people, so I assume that the draw was in the comaradarie of peers. Everyone was so young, and after you have teenagers yourself you realize how young we were and how powerful is/was the need to connect with like-minded friends.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

05-04-2005, 02:25 PM

Steve this thread is excellent, thank you.

ralphwells (ralphwells)

05-04-2005, 02:56 PM

Steve - thank you so much for your very precise and correct dissection of Tom's message.

Isabelladorable - you said a mouth full! Steve Quinlan was one of "?" who used complete and articulate sentences.

Dave - "2. Much like Pharoah's heart after each miracle...more and more he hardened his heart to the truth and called Moses a troublemaker. He did not realize it was Divine justice. Even after the firstborn died he still pursued! (Talk about your cult leader)." You said it well, ands THAT is scairy!

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

05-04-2005, 03:14 PM

Thesaurus: gobbledygook also gobbledegook

noun

Unintelligible or nonsensical talk or language: abracadabra, double talk, gibberish, jabberwocky, mumbo jumbo. See clear/unclear, words.

Dictionary:
gob·ble·dy·gook also gob·ble·de·gook (g&#335;b'&#601;l-d&#275;-g&#650;k')
n.
Unclear, wordy jargon.

[Imitative of the gobbling of a turkey.]

anova (anova)

05-04-2005, 05:30 PM

isabella,

"Complete sentences..that's what I liked."

Oh, dear God in heaven, yes!!

itsahokes,

"the group obviously did attract plenty of intelligent and fun loving people, so I assume that the draw was in the comaradarie of peers."

That's it! This reality has come up in private conversation often.

anovus

herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)

05-04-2005, 05:50 PM

Okay - so there's Steve Q. and his talent for putting words together in a way that communicates articulate thoughts. He is not driven to convince others that he is right (on doctrine or dogma) yet states his opinion with conviction.

But, you know what?? Steve has been known to bibble a glass of wine and even (gasp) a smooth single malt! And I have it on good authority that he even went to movies while at TBS!!! So, now what do you think??? Can we trust that eloquence - that intellect? - hmmmmmmmmmmm? I mean come on -- he's a Presbyterian for goodness sake!!

jeannie (jeannie)

05-04-2005, 05:55 PM

Bibbling lends him more credibility in my book..

herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)

05-04-2005, 06:04 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Have to agree Jeannie!

ralphwells (ralphwells)

05-04-2005, 06:34 PM

Bibbling bottles of wine and brew.
Just how many I wonder can you do
Being a fan of films at the flick,
I wonder, what makes that boy tick?

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

I think you are A-ok too Sir Steve the Quin, and deserving of the FactNet distinguished service award of excellence!

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/FactLogoSmall.gif

steve_quinlan (steve_quinlan)

05-04-2005, 07:21 PM

How to create a Cult

Lesson Three: Convince your group that they are in grave danger, the situation is urgent, and you alone can protect them.

Once again, I’ll use the transcript of Tom Schaller’s “sermon” from May 1, 2005 to illustrate my Lesson. The very first thing we hear begins to create a sense of urgency. “This morning I would like you to turn to John 16 verse 13. This will not be long, but important.” On the face of it we think are going to hear a brief message based on John 16:13. But what is the “meta message” here? It is “Alarm! Alarm! Pay careful attention (you can do it – the message will be short), the following is crucial to your well being!” “Achtung! Achtung!” “I am the one standing up front here, and I have decided that this message is important! You do not listen and heed this message at your own peril!” Nothing of substance said yet, but already my mind is being prepared to assent.

Now I am told just why this message is so important. “[T]his is so important to us as believers because we know in the world there are many voices … There are many words, many motivations, many hearts, different hearts, same heart, the heart of Adam, the first Adam, and the heart of the second Adam. And there are also many spirits. There are many … voices, that come even from our own soul, our own heart, our own lives. The world and indeed our own souls are filled with a cacophony of voices, some of which are coming from “different hearts” other “sprits” and even from “the first Adam.” These alien voices and mixed motivations are all jumbled together with good spirits and the “heart of the second Adam.” This is a very dangerous situation is it not?

What is this grave danger? Why is this message so urgent? And this verse here is an amazing part of the picture that is so important to us as a church. Because I am afraid, left to myself, I’m afraid what I could do, left to myself, by my own self, I’m afraid what I could do, what I can think, and what I can say. Now I see. If left to myself, I will not know which voices to follow. If I follow the wrong voice, I will be in big trouble. I could do and think and say terrible things. I could, in fact, forsake Jesus in his hour of deepest need. I could become like “The disciples, one cross virtually no disciples, a woman and another woman and then John.” Do you want to be like those disciples who forsook Jesus? Left to yourself, you could be!

Now, have I got your undivided attention? Good. Now listen carefully, “Great odds are against us and that’s a very good starting point. Because our church is unique… This threatening situation may be true for some other believers, but it is especially true for us. Not only are the odds against us as Christians (Christianity is a dicey business), but “great odds” are against US in this particular church, “Because our church is unique.” This is a scarey time, a dangerous time, a threatening time.

Now lets get to the heart of the matter. I think the thing I am most concerned about is our spirituality, as a fellowship. The thing that we read in the scripture that we are warned about, is our self sufficiency, our ability to live this life without God. The “spirituality” of this church as a fellowship is under threat. The threat is coming from “many voices” both “in the world” and “even from our own soul, our own heart, our own lives.” These voices are calling people away from God by luring them into a “self sufficiency, our ability to live this life without God.” 

What, oh what can we do about this terrible threat? How can we stand firm in our fellowship? There is but one way. That is to recognize that that this fellowship is unique just like the fellowship of the church in Acts. “In that fellowship they had certain characteristics, they ate every day, they fellowshipped every day, they prayed every day, and they continued in the Apostolic doctrine. And that doctrine, the nature of it when it is taught line upon line, it brings my flesh to a place of death.”

So if you want to avoid the deception of those many voices within and without, here is what you should do. Don’t be like all those “people in twenty first century US of A, beltway suburbia, they are looking for a church that may meet their social needs, even psychological needs, but are they interested to know that God Almighty is the one that will meet my deepest need, and satisfy me so I drink deep from the well of salvation?” No, no, no. Do not be like them, but instead let the Spirit lead you. And here is how to let the spirit lead you: read your bible and God will speak to you, and He’ll build you up, and you’ll hear it in the closet, then you come here to 6025 Moravia Park Drive.”

This is the place for you. This is the place that is safe. This is the place where all those other voices are drowned out. Look, “We have about 300 young people up in Pennsylvania, Pastor Love, and there is a good crowd here today. And tonight we have another one, and then Wednesday night, It just going on…” All these wonderful people can’t be wrong, can they? No they can’t, can they Pastor Love?

And why is that? Its is because, “God is leading us. God is with us. We are blessed by God. Magnify Him. “ So be very careful. “Don’t miss it. This could be the greatest time in your life. This could be a time of new beginnings, for you. A time when you turn the corner, God will not fail you. ..Your life could be changed, Absolutely. Keep going, go on faith, keep coming here. And come by faith, God will meet you right here.” All those terrible confusing, threatening, prideful voices are clamoring all around, but here it is safe, here you will be blessed.

Now just in case you didn’t quite get the point, let me repeat it a little more simply, “Walk carefully before the Lord these days. Don’t believe a lie. If you have a problem go to the person alone and ask them. If you hear something, do not repeat it. Go to the person alone. Where did you hear that? Where’s it coming from? Because our walk is a careful walk. We’re walking carefully, and we want to listen to the Spirit of God, who will guide us into all truth.”} Got it? Here endeth the third lesson.

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

05-04-2005, 07:26 PM

"People just don't understand how badly they need our rap sessions."

steve_quinlan (steve_quinlan)

05-04-2005, 07:53 PM

HRH,

in vino veritas

herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)

05-04-2005, 07:54 PM

Oh, Amen and Amen brother Q!! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

bruder5 (bruder5)

05-04-2005, 07:59 PM

were is AA when a boy needs it? HRH you have a wormwood spirit that needs a modest exorcism...not blue room material but inching in that direction.

herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)

05-04-2005, 08:07 PM

Thanks, Bruder - I'll take that as a compliment! We'll get you to our new cult in Calabria and see if the spirit of wormwood can bring you into the Fifth Way!! No fair sticking your tongue out as we christen your head with Barbera!!

Quin - please continue...I haven't been back in school since 2001 - (other than the RFO classroom of esoteric instruction!)

jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)

05-04-2005, 10:31 PM

"Wine Bibblers..." http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gif

daved (daved)

05-05-2005, 01:10 AM

steve_quinlan quoted Pastor Schaller as saying:

>>>
No, no, no.
Do not be like them, but instead let the Spirit lead you.

And here is how to let the spirit lead you:

read your bible and God will speak to you,


and He’ll build you up,
and you’ll hear it in the closet,
then you come here to 6025 Moravia Park Drive.”
>>>

Nobody on this board wishes to discuss the issue,
that the Bible being used by Pastor Schaller in the pulpit,
and by GGWO Christians in the congregation,
says that God's name is 'JEHOVAH" and not "Yahweh"

Thus if GGWO Christians follow Pastor Schaller's directions,
and read their bibles
[which of course says that God's name is "JEHOVAH" ]
and then return to 6025 Moravia Park Drive,
someone in authority at 6025 Moravia Drive
is going to tell them in no uncertain terms,
to forget those previous instructions
[e.g. read your bible and God will speak to you,]
and beleve what Pastor Schaller or Pastor Stevens teaches you,
at 6025 Moravia Park Drive,
not what your Bible teaches you,
in your closet.

GGWO Christians can read their King James Bible
from now until the twelfth of never, and it ain't going to change.

It's going to keep telling anyone that reads it that God's name is "Jehovah",
not "Yahweh"!

And the pulpit is going to keep telling members of GGWO
that they must not believe their bibles,
they must believe what the pulpit at 6025 Moravia Drive teaches them,
that God's name is "Yahweh",
not "JEHOVAH".

HAS GGWO EVER THOUGHT OF USING A DIFFERENT BIBLE?

FWIW

daved

anova (anova)

05-05-2005, 01:15 AM

Daved,

Check yourself into the nearest mental health facility and DROP IT!

c_la_verite (c_la_verite)

05-05-2005, 01:48 AM

daved... don't take it personally. anovus is a secret jehovah's witness.

daved (daved)

05-05-2005, 02:07 AM

Why would a Pastor tell his followers to read their Bibles, when the Pastor himself doesn't believe the Bible he is asking his followers to read?

daved

hodeuon (hodeuon)

05-05-2005, 02:33 AM

"HAS GGWO EVER THOUGHT OF USING A DIFFERENT BIBLE? "

That's a good question, Dave.

Could someone enlighten us on Carl Stevens' preference for the KJV?

Hodeuon
hodeuon at yahoo dot com

nonotone (nonotone)

05-05-2005, 02:46 AM

Here are some of the reasons CHS has favored the KJV:

1) GGWO is *not* a "KJV-only" organization
2) Carl seems to prefer the KJV because some of his favorite pet doctrines are dervied from its language (e.g "Cockatrice Eggs", "Line upon line....", "Curse Ye Meroz", ... etc.)
3) Carl's favorite Evangelicals are from the Right Wing Bible Baptist camp (Bob Jones, Jack Hyles, etc.) and they are KJV "to the max".
4) Carl seems to consider (considered?) himself an able exegete of the original Hebrew and Greek texts and can therefore "clarify" the KJV where it does not accurately reflect his notions of the "Finished Work". Carl's all-encompassing approach to hermeneutics is the "Finished Work". This is in fact a cover for antinomianism. Also, Carl is *not* a true scholar of the original Biblical languages (as some of his followers suppose him to be), but simply someone who is skilled at using (and obfuscating) the tools which were written by true scholars.
5) The KJV is viewed by many fundatmentalists as being the most authoratative in the doctrine of Christology (1 Tim 3:16, 1 John 5:6-8, etc.).

Brian Bowman

hodeuon (hodeuon)

05-05-2005, 03:26 AM

Thanks, Brian,

Good points all.

Based on what I've heard on The Grace Hour, I definitely agree with #4. Carl Stevens seems to translate individual words rather than sentences. And he deals mainly with word meaning, only a little with grammar, and none at all with syntax.

Concerning #5, that's a whole can of worms. One that I enjoy, but... :-)

And #2 sounds like why the Roman Catholic Church stuck with the Latin Vulgate. Telling the masses what to think instead of teaching them how to interpret the Scriptures for themselves.

Of course, it's hard to maintain delegated authority once you start making disciples instead of just making converts....

Hodeuon at yahoo dot com

steve_quinlan (steve_quinlan)

05-05-2005, 03:53 AM

I love this message board.
I hate this message board.
I am ambivalent about this message board.
People hear what they want (can).
People say what they want (can).
People are fond of introducing red herrings, riding hobby horses and missing the point.
This message board is often inspiring.
This message board is frustratingly irrational.
This message board is a lot like the church.
(Take another deep breath Steve, and carry on.)

itsahokes (itsahokes)

05-05-2005, 04:22 AM

Hang in there Steve, help is on the way. gotta brush my teeth.

yogi (yogi)

05-05-2005, 04:23 AM

Excellent analysis and teaching on entendre of Schaller's Sunday "sermon." Thanks!

yogi

daved (daved)

05-05-2005, 08:59 AM

Pastor Carl Stevens may believe that the KJV is the best translation of the Bible, but he has taught in the pulpit that God does not appreciate this evangelical Bible [i.e. The King James Bible] because it calls Him [i.e. God] Jehovah.

So since God has spoken throught Pastor Carl Stevens, and informed the GGWO congregation, that He [i.e. God] does not appreciate this evangelical Bible, why do Pastor Carl Stevens and Pastor Tom Schaller continue to use it?

Is GGWO ignoring Pastor Carl Stevens' annointed message that God doesn't appreciate "this evangelical Bible" that calls Him [i.e. God] Jehovah.

daved

herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)

05-05-2005, 02:25 PM

S-Q -- You're right - we do tend to wander at times, stray from the theme we do, even fracture trains of thought -- frustrating? oh yes, ain't it grand?!

Sorry, Daved - guess I strayed from the Jehovah/Yahweh topic...or was that a fractured drift from the Create A Cult thread-starter??!! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif I'm just going to get on my hobby horse and ride off into the sunset -- er, sunrise...!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

pressing_on (pressing_on)

05-05-2005, 02:39 PM

Sounds like fun!!!

ralphwells (ralphwells)

05-05-2005, 03:16 PM

Carl prefers the KJV because it was "Mummies Bible," everyone heard him say that and say that and say that and say that and,,,,,,,,,,http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

anova (anova)

05-05-2005, 03:22 PM

SQ,

We do go off on crazy rabbit-trails on these threads! As for me, I am releasing a long pent-up latent adolescence (I must have been too drugged during my first).

I would also add this: Your analysis and presentation of Schaller's message is so dead-on right, so incisive, and just so very true that it’s downright chilling. I have been out of TBS for 20 years and years back actively sought and experienced much healing and “deprogramming.” Even so, your postings so vividly point out the insidiousness of the cultic deceptions (even as being preached just days ago) that I found it hard to read. There was something too real, too immediate about it. It is disturbing to be so confronted with the ugly reality of it all.

Don’t give up on this thread. We are listening. It’s just hard for some of us to stay there.

Anovus

herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)

05-05-2005, 05:37 PM

I agree, Anovus (oh my God -- I am agreeing with Anovus!) - It's simple to speak in broad generalities about the cultic tendencies or to be specific about a particular incident or event. But SQ broke down into a clear, concise explanation w/examples, exactly how one could be pulled in -- you know, the subtleties employed to bring intelligent and well-meaning people to a place where they embraced the whole package.

Keep going, Steve. (My hobbie & I are back now.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif)

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

05-05-2005, 06:50 PM

"He is not driven to convince others that he is right (on doctrine or dogma) yet states his opinion with conviction."

Oh, hellsbells, of course he thinks he's right. If he didn't think he was right he'd have bugger all to say.

When did it become a crime against humanity to think you're right about something other than stating the bloody obvious?

joyce (joyce)

05-05-2005, 06:53 PM

Thank you, Steve. It's true....what you wrote IS chilling and VERY DIFFICULT to read. Are we ever really free from it all? Stirs up lots of stuff from I don't know where. Keep posting even though this could give me nightmares!

herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)

05-05-2005, 08:46 PM

Actually, Jim...the point was not that he doesn't believe that what he thinks is correct...it's that he doesn't try to force-feed what he believes to others trying to convince them that his is the only way to perceive a concept. Nor does he take the posture that there could not possibly be another way of viewing an issue. As a matter of fact, Steve has admitted to the fact that he has actually changed some of his paradigms as he studies...so why would he tenaciously hold onto his current understanding with the idea that there is no more to learn on a given subject? That doesn't mean that there can't be a healthy and even heated debate about a point of doctrine or dogma or religious curiosity...!

And, when did it become a crime to appreciate someone's delivery? and why are you always so sensitive about it when someone compliments Quin? Geesh, why the raw nerve over something so inconsequential as what "I" think?

bruder5 (bruder5)

05-06-2005, 01:44 AM

Huxley in his book "The Devils of Loudun" made an interesting observation. "A long religious training had not abolished or even mitigated his self-love; it had served only to provide the ego with a theological alibi. The untutored egotist merely wants what he wants. Give him a theological education, and it becomes obvious to him, it becomes axiomatic, that what he wants is what God wants." There seems to be great security in being right. A place of safety. Being right or being in systems that "are right with God" seems like a good deal. However, didn't the apostle Paul speaks to this regarding the Pharisees? That by clinging to systems of the law they denied the mystery of God and by extension the mystery of brokeness? A dear friend passed along "Poverty of Spirit" to me recently. Metz speaks of the threatening nothingness in which many find themselves after leaving systems of comfort. The first instinct is to think something is wrong. The nothingness almost testifies to "the wrongness". Many of us have stood outside of systems and in looking back see safety and order, old friendships and an abiding sense of loss. (I certainly did) and I felt there was something inherently wrong with me. (Shame based in my case) I misunderstood or mistook the nothingness as toxic ground rather then holy ground. "We run away from the Night with its fear and tremblings into the Light of easily understood platitudes." Metz again. I continue to be distracted by safe places and things easily understood. But, I'm beginning to understand that traces of God's presence however fleeting are richer then systems that believe like Huxley's character that "what I want God wants." Jesus on the other hand just walked around doing good. And for the most part he stood alone. With people and against systems that harmed them. I like that Jesus. I love the idea of "Blessed are the poor in spirit..."

herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)

05-06-2005, 01:53 AM

Hushhhhhh - Thanks, Bruder.

ariel (ariel)

05-06-2005, 03:09 AM

Profound as always - Bruder5
Thanx

steve_quinlan (steve_quinlan)

05-06-2005, 04:11 AM

How to create a cult

Lesson Four: Discourage independent critical thinking by equating it with pride.

“Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God and He shall lift you up. For God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

There is a fundamental error, an error in every one of our lives, and what is that error? It is that sneaky, creeping plague called pride. Pride is very hard to avoid isn’t it? It is sneaky. It creeps up on you and snares you before you even know it. And it is deadly – like the plague. So you have to walk carefully before God.

Proud people are all impressed with themselves, but God is not. No, let’s get this straight because He is not impressed with any of us. Let’s get that straight. Have you accomplished significant things? Like earned degrees from accredited schools? He’s not impressed with your track record. Do you have an incisive mind? He’s not impressed with your ability. Have you been successful in business? He’s not impressed with your portfolio. Do you come from a good and caring family? He’s not impressed with your name, your..what’s the thing, your, your genealogy?…the tribe of Benjamin. Like Paul said in Philippians 3. 

Nothing you are and nothing you have done amounts to anything as far as God is concerned. You think you’re so smart, reading books and going to school, but He’s not impressed with our wisdom and our talent. He’s not impressed with us. He isn’t.

I’m standing up here as a successful preacher, and I’m telling you that I don’t need any of that stuff to know what is sound and sensible and right. All I need is the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit will guide me into all truth. Yes, the Holy Spirit will guide me, but will mark the proud in James 4:6

This insidious pride is not only unimpressive to God, but keeps us from knowing God. Because God says, “No, nope…..nope, not going to happen….I’m not going to reveal Myself to the proud.” “I’m not going to give, I’m not going to show my ways, unless there is humility” “And I will not pour my Spirit out upon any believer, unless I find that believer at the cross.” Well, God does say that actually, but “in effect.” 

Now I want you to get this very clear and straight. The reason why people have a problem with this church and our teaching is because they are proud. God says, I’m not going to reveal Myself to the proud. So they don’t get our revelation. God says, “I’m not going to show my ways, unless there is humility.” They do not have humility and so they can’t see that our ways are God’s ways.

I’ll tell you what all these “smart” and “clever” people need. They need a good baptism in humility. A good surrender. They need to come to a church that will meet [their] deepest need, and satisfy [them] so [they] drink deep from the well of salvation, and be delivered from [their] personal sin of which pride is a dominant one.

Now some people don’t think that it is prideful to think for themselves. Some people don’t think that it is prideful to challenge the sense of what you hear. Some people are willing to listen to those other voices. But not you and not me. We say, “Guide me into the truth, because there are many voices out there.” Really, do you know what the Holy Spirit says to me? This has been ….I ..I…He’s been saying these things to me, and I’m sure to you for many years. You know, all through the years when hundreds of people have given in to pride and listened to other voices, and become self-sufficient and have left the ministry. He’s been saying to me things when other people live in unbelief, the Holy Spirit says “No…oh No…Follow Me…believe Me.” 

Remember, pride is a plague. Remember, the enemy is our self life, mark it down. Please, please do not be presumptuous. Don’t presume to think for yourself. Walk carefully before God. Listen now, those critical of this ministry are not of God. Those who accuse us are prideful and not of God. How do I know this? You tell me. Does He accuse you? Talk to me. Does He accuse you?…No He does not. Does He condemn you? Have you sinned?….Yes Am I condemned?….NO!

Now, one last thing. You may think that this is a rambling and incoherent message, but that is just because of your pride. And that pride, and we’ve heard from Doctor Stevens and his amazing teachings and insight... Just remember …the humble looking guy, who just is a wallflower, just very humble looking, as proud as anything before the eyes of God. And if that doesn’t make sense to you, well its just because you judge on the outward but I know the heart in I Samuel 16:7 Here endeth the Fourth Lesson.

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

05-06-2005, 06:44 AM

HRH, FYI--what I said had nothing to do with sensitivity towards the Q. I actually am enjoying the psychological exam he's giving the TS sermon. What I really find assinine is this glorification of 'tolerance' (read relativism) and use of the words 'dogma' and 'doctrine' as if they were urine and excrement.

Note that Christ spoke with authority. He was dissed because of this habit. Christianity by its very nature is both dogmatic and doctrinal. You cannot really know the God presented in its revelation otherwise. While there are certainly mysteries and unknowables, God reveals himself to us in Scripture because he wants us as his friends. He has made this revelation through Scripture his way of 'knowing' him, not just 'being right.' Christianity is also by nature exclusive. It does not accept that 'other paths' may lead to God. Is this religious bigotry? If it is, then the Christ of the Bible is a bigot. Jn.10:1

People in the present climate accuse anyone who speaks or who thinks that they are right in their exclusive presentation of an overarching truth claim are 'intolerant' or 'force feeding their beliefs' or 'fearful of the unknown'. Whatever. 'The dogma is the drama of the Man born to be King.'--Dorothy L. Sayers

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on May 06, 2005)

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

05-06-2005, 09:33 AM

Our teaching, our revelation, our ways. That's rich. Reminds me of the way Stevens would say 'we' instead of 'I'. Is that the 'royal we'? Did he mean 'God and I' or 'this Ministry'? This 'table of organization'?

I believe that when I say 'I' think or believe something that it indicates that I'm saying 'this could just be subjective. It may just be my own perception.' 'You' may think differently, and we may both be wrong. But 'I' see things a certain way. God made each of us this way. It's not proud to share your own perspective. It is not possible for a human being other than Jesus Himself to be totally objective. And you could view it as even Him not being objective when He walked the earth. His objectivity lay with the Father. The Father's perspective was brought to the Son's environment through their communion. The 'objective' found an outlet in the 'subjective'. The process can work the same for us, but only God is an accurate evaluator of it.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

05-06-2005, 09:35 AM

'Walk carefully before God.'

Sort of calls up images of David dancing before the Ark, doesn't it?

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

05-06-2005, 09:37 AM

Alanna, Does the sun really rise at 9:25 up there? Does that mean he'll stay up late on August 6th?

bjerwin (bjerwin)

05-06-2005, 10:11 AM

"Now, one last thing. You may think that this is a rambling and incoherent message, but that is just because of your pride."

Gosh, scary, scary scary. He sure covered all his bases...

ralphwells (ralphwells)

05-06-2005, 02:03 PM

Bob - The "we" thing is three-fold. Supposed to show humility, supposed to show "corporateness," and (my suspicion) that God is speaking with him.

I used to hate it when they would sing "We love you Lord," I would sing "I love you Lord." Boy I really am adamically rebellious.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

steve_quinlan (steve_quinlan)

05-06-2005, 02:21 PM

JF
The 8th chapter in Reinhold Niebuhr's Nature and Destiny of Man vol. II is entitled "Having, and Not Having, the Truth." The chapter deals with the Biblical paradox of grace as applied to the search for truth. Commenting on the chapter, somebody wrote, "Tolerance, for Niebuhr, was not simply a courtesy or a liberal social ethic. Rather it was a theological necessity arising from human finitude." Tolerance most emphatically is not "relativism" as you would have us read it. The nature of grace is that it allows us to believe that we are at once saints and sinners (simul justus et peccator). God's infinite grace and my finite humanity lead me to believe that I may know the truth, but not entirely. Dogma and Doctrine should be provisional and tentative affirmations or assertions based upon the paradox of grace. Tolerance is holding on to a belief simultaneously with conviction and humility. This is not relativism in any sense of the word.

Of course, I think I am correct. It would be perverse to assert what I didn't believe to be true. It would be equally absurd -- and an affront to God's grace to assert (or believe) that my finite word (or my finite take on God's word) is the last word on any subject. That is the theological point of tolerance.
SQ

cape_cod (cape_cod)

05-06-2005, 03:12 PM

For though He was crucified through weakness, yet He liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you. - (Gal.13:4)

God's infinite grace is the power of God, made manifest through our weakness.

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

05-06-2005, 03:33 PM

I am talking not about 'tolerance' as Neibuhr defines it, SQ, but as it is used in common American parlance as the greatest of all virtues. This 'virtue' means that no truth claims may be made absolutely. (This is in itself a self-defeating absolute proposition.) However, it is us finite critters that contain the infinite Truth in earthen vessels.

Relativism, as Bloom describes it in "The Closing of the American Mind" is taught as the greatest moral good in our universities so as to hold in disdain any claim to be right about anything at all. This thinking has now trickled down to us common folk, "Whatever works for you," "I am so glad you have found YOUR truth," "What is truth for you may not be truth for me." Doubt and scepticism are the new greater moral 'good'. This is hardly humility, but rather a new form of bigotry and a method of excluding Christianity from exerting its claims at all. Not to recognise this state of affairs in this country is in my view, voluntary blindness.

Tolerance of one another as justified sinners can only be given by believing Christians who have an understanding of the doctrine of justification by grace alone. Not all the world are justified sinners are they? One must have personally encountered the dogma of the God-man who satisfied God's justice to have become justified (Cur Deus Homo). I quite agree with tolerance as bearing with one another in growth as believers--but that is hardly the definition of tolerance in modern usage. Tolerance in modern usage means that Christianity must 'play nicely' as an equal to any other truth claim or deity which pops up. As far as I can tell, the first and second commandments of the Decalogue (still in force) preclude that, however politely we phrase our exclusivity. "You shall have no other Gods before me" offends us to the very sinful core. This flies in the face of postmodernism and is offensive, but this offense is bound to occur.

In Christianity, doctrine is apostolic and scripture begins with dogma: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth..." This is neither tentative or provisional but rather it is a tenet: "I believe in God the Father Almighty, maker of Heaven and earth..." But, how we understand God as Creator and the implications of that doctrine are obviously up for debate. Other 'views' not in accord with this tenet are heretical (how archaic!) and do not fit into what we might dare to call orthodox Christianity. One cannot reasonably and simultaneously hold that God is the Creator and that God did not create all things visible and invisible.

My comment was intended to show that even though you use a psychological approach to the TS sermon rather than one which is dogmatic or doctrinal, it is nonetheless intended to persuade. Please do continue with your very lucid evaluation of cultic thinking--it is very helpful and, Lord help me, true.

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on May 06, 2005)

minutus (minutus)

05-06-2005, 04:14 PM

This passage illustrates a biblical description of tolerance for me:

Hebrews 5:1 For every high priest is taken from among the people and appointed to represent them before God, to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins. 5:2 He is able to deal compassionately with those who are ignorant and erring, since he also is subject to weakness, 5:3 and for this reason he is obligated to make sin offerings for himself as well as for the people.

We acknowledge we fall short and don't know everything and make allowances for others to do the same. One of the best things about further studies after GGWO for me was extended interaction with people from a wide variety of denominations and non-denominations, learning the strengths and shortcomings of all and being able to enjoy the contributions of each in church history and the present.

steve_quinlan (steve_quinlan)

05-06-2005, 06:41 PM

Daved,
I should thank you for the transcription of TS's May 1 message. Will you do another? We need some more grist for the mill.
SQ

daved (daved)

05-06-2005, 07:19 PM

First I have to get a good tape recording of Sunday's message.

There is no guarantee that my computer will receive a good broadcast on either Media Player, or on Real Player.

Some Sundays the GGWO Broadcast is terrible, some Sundays it is quite good.

I have dial up, which probably adds to the problem of receiving a good broadcast.

daved

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

05-06-2005, 07:22 PM

There's always the Grace Hour archives...

anova (anova)

05-06-2005, 07:46 PM

Someone mentioned a Grace Hour broadcast from this week in which Carl's sermon sounded pretty crazy. Could be good.

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

05-06-2005, 08:00 PM

I view tolerance as more respect, love and attempting to understand another's view of life.

I think the Bible is also full of examples of this... The story of the good samaritan speaks less of dogma than of love, that Christ healed the centurion's child speaks of love for a heathen to the point of sacrifice, "let he who is without sin castr the first stone" speaks of love over the law, compassion over doctrine...

I do not think it is possible for we human beings to understnad our Maker for our minds are clouded with our humanity. Humans believe and some need to believe in absolutes to the point of believing in a finite God. I do not believe in a God found only in the absiolutes of doctrine and dogma for I see that as a false limitation imposed by the limitations of the human mind.

We see through a glass darkly...of course we do. The capacity we have for God is incredibly small compared to his all encomassing being...I like that. I like the expanse the He is, the joy of his granduer is something I am so glad to have found.

The Book is what it is...the closest thing we may have to a written record of the history of the Jews and the spotty record of the beginnings of Christianity. It is a marvelous meditation and can be the Christian's best companion...but it cannot be all there is to God, Christ,Humanity or anything else. I know my words will not be well received nor agreed with, but never the less...tolerance is not relativism...it is respect for another's culture and humanity...you cannot love a person and show him the real Christ without it.

dave_drago (dave_drago)

05-06-2005, 08:07 PM

Seed thought for the rap:

I have an amaaaaazing thought I just had to comment on your aaaaawesooooome message Pastor Schaller, I was soooo blessed when you said:

"And that pride, and we’ve heard from Doctor Stevens and his amazing teachings and insight..."

What I wanted to share with you and God gave it to me in the powerful anointing of the moment ( and I thank God for you and you are such an aaaaaawesome man of God, you are like Elisha for me)....and I just had to write it down and come to this rap so I could share this anointed thought with you:

God showed me through the anointing that Dr. Stevens 'amazing teachings and insight' are really equal to 'theological gas'. Now, what I mean to say, is that the release of categorical doctrine working from the inner man of aaaaawesone men like you and Dr. Stevens, in the humble and broken unction of the moment, whereby the divinely human and spontaneously adamic pontificating reaction really produces a stench that I wish would stop.

ericlaw (ericlaw)

05-06-2005, 09:10 PM

I don't know if someone posted this in another place yet but...

I was told that in ABD this week, Schaller said it anyone wasn't with him and what he taught 100% they could leave. 8 people prompty left.

ralphwells (ralphwells)

05-06-2005, 09:30 PM

Holy doctrinitus Batman, can you imagine that? Eight people got up and walked out. Koly macroni Batman, what can that mean.

Well Robin old chum, it means the light was refracted as it came down from the throne of God and eight more people saw the light and were emitted from the presence of the false profit, er I mean prophet. To the bat cave Robin, their are more souls to release. Hurry Robin, the Finnish riddler must be stopped!

rjfernalld (rjfernalld)

05-07-2005, 02:51 AM

God bless those eight, may their example lead more out of the chaos of the cult.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

05-07-2005, 03:43 AM

Was the 35% a one time deal, or a repeating phenomenon? If 8=35%, how many students were in the class? My math skills deteriorate in proportion to the number of beers.

buggin (buggin)

05-07-2005, 04:44 AM

Bob-Brinton
According to your calculation 8 students would be 35% of 23 students total. For answering correctly, I'll take a star on my forehead or a Doctrine booklet to wipe my A** with.

jim_faucett (jim_faucett)

05-07-2005, 02:41 PM

"They don't realise how much they need our rap sessions."

"If they'd just get with the vision, I'd receive them."

hodeuon (hodeuon)

05-07-2005, 06:04 PM

Agreed, Jim, those are some frightening quotes.

The first one reminds me of something that a Jehovah's Witness leader once said - that if a JW stopped reading the Watchtower for two years, he'd revert to interpreting the Bible the same way everyone else did. People "need" the raps so that they don't start thinking for themselves.

And that second quote is just a polite way of saying "my way or the highway"...

Hodeuon at yahoo dot com