What Tipped You Off

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

I thought a thread about "the lights coming on" for individuals might be interesting. Feel free to post your experience with a "WTF?" moment.

Mine was one day when I was listening to a tape of Pastah Stevens preaching on, among other things, Job 38:31. This verse deals with "the sweet influences of the Pleiades," etc. Steven's went on to indicate that, somehow, in his mind, the Pleiades HOLD THE UNIVERSE TOGETHER. Now at the time I was doing some reading on cosmology and just could not believe that the man could make such an outlandish statement. Does anyone remember this message? I'd love to get a copt of it again; it's stuck in some of my boxes in another state...

anyway, thinking about this made me do a new post on the site: http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com

[shat_happens (shat_happens)]

Mine has to be “Pastors Hallmarks of Certain Certainties, and God’s Bulldozer!”

[wanttoyota (wanttoyota)]

Certain certainties is full of incomprehensibilities. At the time I shuffed it off as mere idiosyncracy of a man.

[offshore (offshore)]

John C. would give me a tape of every class, staff meeting,and service that Stevens preached for 6 years. Stevens would actually name each Service or at least, approve or not, of a Title given.
I had a Sears dishwasher box that I would toss them into.
By the time I got out, I just wanted "everything Stevens" out of my life. I knew I couldn't dispose of them anywhere on campus, so I drove to that car wash on the way to Pittsfield. I had to take smaller boxes to fill to get them into my car. When I got there, I parked and waited for most of the people to leave. I filled two trash cans, (which took quite a bit of time), and took off. As I was pulling out, I saw several overjoyed TBS people diving into the trashcans to recover the treasures within.

Over the years, I have regretted doing that because I had a gold mine of frontal-lobe lobotomized messages from the throne. Ah well!

My favorite was, "The Mysterious Mystery of a Paradoxical Contradiction" ( or,... "A Repetitious Repitition of a Tautological Redundancy")

(Message edited by offshore on May 04, 2005)

[aurora (aurora)]

Does anyone remember the CHS term: relevant righteousness?

It used to drive me nuts because the context in which he would always use this term should have had the term RELATIVE righteousness instead. And then people would quote him and then use the expression as their own lingo and I knew it was not the right vocabulary word for what was trying to be said! He would use the word relative but somehow he switched their meanings.
I think he had his own take on the English language...

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Please, I haven't gotten over the "decussation of the pyramids" yet.

[anova (anova)]

I remember that teaching.

He brilliantly summed it up with the expressions:

RR, Minus R, and Plus R.

RR= relative righteousness
minus r= (hell, I don't remember)
Plus R= righteousness in Christ (I think)

He always seemed so proud to use the "abbreviations," like he was very brilliant and intellectual. Even in my brainwashed state I thought they sounded pretty stupid.

[anova (anova)]

Aurora,

I just got your post.

Junior could say the most idiotic things, and people would repeat them if they were correct or not.

He used to pronounce Japan: jap-ann with the accent on the first sylable. Other people started pronouncing it that way!

Dear God, sometimes, idolizing an ignoramous like him was downright painful.


anovus

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Divine Design ring any bells?????? After being married a short time CHS was telling my husband that I was not his DD and at the very same time was telling me that Bob & I were DD's!! Never knew that until we were out! - Oy! How to screw with a young man's mind!!

[anova (anova)]

Another Junior malopropism:

In 1983 he was trying to cover his ass for having falsely prophesied a “corporate pentecost” which never came to pass. He did this by saying we were in an embryonic state of revival.

Being the ignoramus that he is, he said “embryotic” instead of embryonic. Soon he was referring to the “embryotic revival.”


Anovus

[anova (anova)]

Nancy DeCristo used to sing a funny song about Divine Design. She made up the words and sang them to the tune of "Hey, Big Spender."

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

anon_brief... speaking of the decussation of pyriamids, are you sure you don't have leisions on your cervical peduncle??http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Lord help me. You're going to make my head explode, Verité.

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

don't worry... it's a sign the leisions are beginning to heal. just keep reading factnet.

[anova (anova)]

"Carl H. Stevens at your cervix."

[arguendo (arguendo)]

If I can't get that image out of my head, you boys are dead.

[anova (anova)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

people who really love God get to cervix early so they can get a front row seat. only a suckup gets a reserved seat.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

ACK.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

"thrpththpfpt!"

[linda_kern (linda_kern)]

Divine Design........wow, haven't heard that one in awhile!

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

haha, interesting posts here folks... one good turn deserves another, so here's an image to go with that thought... http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/

my apologies to the sensibilities of arguendohttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Japp-ann indeed. He always added the adjective "Gawd-less Japp-ann"

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[aurora (aurora)]

Let's not forget "channel A and channel B" (was there a channel C?).

Our branch pastor would teach and reteach this Stevens stuff for MONTHS after hearing it taught by the Big Guy. That's why dissafiliation isn't really happening in a meaningful way unless there is a SYSTEMATIC examining and refuting of these weird things WITH the affiliates' congregations, ya know? (Very unlikely- must save butt-they are CHS disciples after all.)

Hey- I still have ALL the tapes and booklets that a good& truly spiritual doobee would accumulate after 20+ years "in". Any suggestions as to what I should do with them? Is anyone writing a book and need GG-cult-reference materials?
I'll probably just chuck them during spring cleaning..

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Actually he stole the channel A, B, and C thing from psychology, and added his twist to it. Jack Daly told me time that CHS woudl read National Geographics or anotehr magazine and then get "a wrod of knowledge" that night in service that was directly from the reading. For years he subscribed to "Psychology Today" and mix his theology with it for his old Christian Psychology classes.

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Maybe we could set up a memorabilia table at the Auction! Probably could make some $$ on eBay if you market it right! Odd, what we hold on to. Actually, Bruder 5 might love to take them off your hands for you...I am not joking...he's got a project for which they might be useful. (I think he is scrapbooking...maybe it's stamping..!! About this I am joking.)

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Aurora,

I am interested in anything you wish to give away.

anonbrief@hotmail.com

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

I was fresh out of Berklee College of Music and at a rap when Junior decided to give a music history lesson and began to explain how the Beatles had brought rock music to America from Africa. As mentioned above, it starts to get really funny when people repeat it like it's a fact. He'd bring it up occasionally and I would just laugh.

In the name of trying to help him get his facts straight I tried talking to Dean about it (another musical genius himself), explaining about Africa and drums and slavery and jazz and blues and and Bo Diddley and Chuck Berry. He looked at me incredulously : "Who told you that?!" I walked away thinking "I give up."

Two things really opened my eyes about getting out. The first came after sitting in a meeting listening to Junior mark George Flegel out in Pittsburg (Knapps replacement that backfired) About a week later he grabs me in the hall and says Diane is on the phone and will I talk to her. I pick up the phone and she's crying. "We love Pastor, why is everyone being told we are off?" I hardly knew what to say and held back my own tears knowing what was said at the meeting. I felt sick and vowed never to cover for him like that again. (I'm so sorry Diane, please forgive me...)

The second was when he was preaching about Heb. 13:17, saying that he would be there with God when we were judged telling God if we had been faithful or not. Then he starts calling people to the stage and saying to them "well done good and faithful servant." ( 2 of the people were Mike and Sue Marr lol.) Junior Stevens on the Throne with the Almighty handing out rewards. That was it for me.

Jim

[anova (anova)]

Jim,

Great story.

What was the date of Junior claiming to be part of the judgement process? That was one I never heard. Sounds like he was descending into greater madness.

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Fall 1993

[anova (anova)]

Jim,

Gheez, I had just left!

Creepy. Very creepy.

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

What a story, Jim! I don't think I ever heard him make that claim - (we were gone in the early 80's exodus) - Scary that he'd say that out loud even if it was a thought that bounced around in that parallel universe between his ears!

[aurora (aurora)]

It was taught so much to me that I just assumed everyone knew that your "one pastor-teacher" OF COURSE is the one who presents you at the judgement!

He is accountable for you, don't ya know (so certainly with such a great calling he would never do you wrong..)!

As old Sinatra used to sing- What kind of fool am I?

[nonotone (nonotone)]

aurora,

I'm back on-line. Please EMAIL me at: nonotone@mac.com

Thanks,


Brian Bowman

[isabella (isabella)]

Jim,
I wonder what Junior thinks about RAP!

I'm not nuts about it (rythm without music) but I would love to hear a message from Junior about it.

What a riot!

I can't stop laughing!!

Goodnight..Tomorrow's goin to be another working day and I'm tryin to get some rest...

Isabella

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

"There is a view that Jazz is evil, because it comes from evil people...But actually the greatest priests on 52nd street and on the streets of New York City were the musicians. They were doing the greatest healing work."

Garth Hudson

[anova (anova)]

Jim,

Junior said that classical music caused homosexuality.

Maybe you could make a booklet on Junior's musical wit and wisdom.

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Now that is fuuuunnnny!

Classical music makes me want to:

Kill Someone
Start a War
Surrender to the Russians
Dance with the Queen of England
Laugh
Cry
Relax
Take a Nap
Think of God
Go Back to Music School

But homosexuality would have never crossed my mind (or sex for that matter.) It's amazing what people will say about things they can't comprehend...or about the garbage in their subconscous.

Jim

ps. My favorites: Beethoven and Stravinsky

(Message edited by jim kennedy on May 05, 2005)

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

So they had an overdose of Beethoven in Sodom. I remember him ranting and raving over Wagner. People who practise authoritarianism always seem to end up monkeying with the arts. They can't stand creativity or freedom of expression. It threatens them and makes them feel inferior. God forbid anyone would use their minds to think with.

[ski (ski)]

Wasn't it Wagher who was Hitler's favourite?

Jim, CHS probably was thinking about Tchaikovski and the gang.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Applying the same logic elsewhere, you could come to the conclusion that religion or even Christianity leads to it. You could decide that mom's milk does, or dna or leftover monkey. But as a practise, it predates classical music. Maybe homosexuality led to the music? Maybe it has something to do with snakes or apples.

Homosexuals are people. They are attracted to fine things just as other people are. And logically speaking, even if you consider that orientation a great evil or sin (the Bible makes a good case for it), think of this: If statistics show that murderers and rapists prefer Cross pens to any others, does that mean that you now are not allowed to use them, or that the Cross pen company is evil?

[ski (ski)]

Homosexuals are people. They just have (sinfull) nature they can't change themselve just as I can't change the one which mine. I do sin every day and, sometimes, I don't even notice it.

So I don't see any big difference if a gay comes for forgiveness to Christ or any other person does. I hope it is clear. I love homosexuals, but not by the love most of them would want to. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

As for Stevens and his view on any music - I don't care what he is thinking of it. He might say he likes blondes and the other girls are not from God. I say blondes are good for you, so you may stick to them.
Matthew 15-11 (a little out of context, but still...)

The person should never project his own weaknesses to others, especially from the pulpit.
I do not have problems with music, I am not enslaved by it! So you better take care of your own blondes!
Sergei

[itsahokes (itsahokes)]

Ski, precisely what I needed this morning, a little LOLOLOL. "He might say he likes blondes and the other girls are not from God. I say blondes are good for you, so you may stick to them. Matthew 15-11".

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

I like my blond and am sticking with her.

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

What always yanked my crank about GG is this insane devotion to country gospel music. talk about one of the worse genres ever... And they ram that stuff down one's throat like castor oil. Gotta get the evil out! I remember thinking, "my mom took away all my Zeppelin albums for THIS!?" All that twanging... ARG!!!

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Now I KNOW I have two horns and a tail. I play bass in a garage/metal band.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Ski - yes Hilter liked Wagner. Very heavy and moody. It was featured in a Viet Nam war movie because a lot of the helo pilots liked to play it over loud speakers to shake up the VC.

I like most all of them, but Antonin Dvorak is my favorite. Especially New World Symphony. Hmmm, very appropriate for moving one.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[minutus (minutus)]

Ralph, the highlight of the 1991 Prague conference for me was a pilgrimage to the cemetery where Dvorak is buried, as well as Bedrich Smetana. It's in the fortress of Vysehrad on the Vltava River. I must confess I skipped one of CHSs raps to do that and enjoyed it immensely http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif. BAD MINUTUS!

[anova (anova)]

Bob,

You came up with the perfect title for CHS's book on music history and spirituality:

Beethoven in Sodom

"They can't stand creativity or freedom of expression. It threatens them and makes them feel inferior."

That is SO true.

[anova (anova)]

Minutus,

Good choice on skipping the rap!

I had a choice like that 20 years ago.

Possibly my favorite composer is Gustav Mahler. He wrote a symphony someone subtitled, “The Symphony of a Thousand.” It is rarely ever performed because it requires such large forces: an extra large orchestra, two choirs, and 8 operatic soloists. A major orchestra may perform it every 20 to 25 years.
The BSO did it at Tanglewood a year or two before I left TBS.
I didn’t go. I figured, “I love Mahler too much. It’s probably the flesh. I will deny ‘myself’ and not go.”
That Sunday afternoon, when I realized what I was missing, I knew in my gut I had made a mistake. Then I found out all these other people from the ministry went!

The BSO will perform this symphony this summer (22 years later) at Tanglewood. I’ve already got the tickets. My wife and I will be there…to the glory of God!

Anovus

[minutus (minutus)]

May you enjoy it twice as much, Anovus.

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

hahah, yogi, i was always partial to that rendition of "Besty" you sang to the tune of the Stones "Angie."

As for composers, I've always been drawn to the virtuosos... Paganini, Scarlatti, Dowland. Not to mention the baroque stuff... Albinoni, Vivaldi, Telemann, Bach, etc.

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Wow, looks like Factnet is turning into a homo bath house. LOL. I can see that little group of kids on Southpark that walk into a scene occasionally and say "that's totally gay." LOL

I get really angry when some christian celebrity gets on TV and starts bashing on homosexuals. What is this obsession with this issue? Why do these guys believe following Jesus means taking a stand on that issue? No wonder so many gay/lesbians in this country are so turned off by "fundamentalism." They're constantly being told God hates them. It is quite the opposite, God loves them as much as anyone else.

What if you found out some of the publicans who Jesus spent some time ministering to were gay? It is certainly possible.

Like any other sexual pleasure, it's been around since the beginning of time. It really isn't mentioned all that much when you look at the entire Bible. Sodom of course, but read the story and they were more like homosexual rapists.
It is prohibited in the law, I think only one sentence is devoted to it and with no penalty, as opposed to adultery. (Feel free to correct me on that...just do it in a way that ministers to the homosexuals please.) I'm not aware about much being said about it in the Prophets, the issues there were idolotry, usury, false shepherds, a corrupt priesthood, and to a lesser degree sensual excesses and fornication.(Although many times He's referring to idolotry when He uses the word fornication)

The Apostle Paul' reference to it is the most conspicuous, describing the condition of the Roman world and the results of the fall in Romans 1. He also mentions idolotry and 23 other things, many of which can be found in Juniors ministry and throughout fundamentalism. Chapter one does seem to represent the way our culture is heading in the west today. But of course all the holy men who like to harp on that point forget to mention Chapter 2 verse 1. We're all guilty, and when we believe we're all forgiven and restored. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

There are many homosexuals in the Atlantic City area. Meeting them and working with them puts a different perspective on it than just hearing about it in church or on TV. They're like anybody else; happy, sad, nice, mean, good people, bad people, needy, proud, kind or ignorant. We all have something in us that wants to deny God, and we all are drawn to Him by the same Spirit. "for the Son of Man has not come to destoy men's lives but to save them..."

I'm getting windy here, but there is a lot of good content on this thread. When I first met the church I really felt my call was music. But everyone I talked to about it said the same thing: "Have you thought about going to Bible School?" I also was handed a tape called The Devil In Rock and Roll that was making the rounds in christianity at the time. All this when I was already in Berklee and getting lessons from Alan Dawson up in Lexington. Looking back, no one was told to quit being a salesman because it was evil. Oh well.

Yes, I'll confess I love country music. (Merle Haggard Rules! One of the best American Songwriters) I think Duke Ellington said it best: "There are two kinds of music. Good and Bad."

Jim

ps. Are blondes really good for you?

[ethelmertz (ethelmertz)]

Jim.......merle haggard? My sister makes me listen to him when we are in her car! I like country music too but MH is too "twangy" for me. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/talker.gif Now...zztop is a different story...........http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[yogi (yogi)]

La Grange...a how, how, howwwww!

yogi

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

IMO, Country Gospel is a blend of barbershop, bluegrass, country and rockabilly...

[anova (anova)]

Doris,

Awesome story! What you guys did was what Jesus would have done. God bless you.


Anovus

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Truth. God loves sinners.

Ro 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

But let's be careful with 'Christian cliches':

Ps.5:4 For You are not a God who delights in wickedness;
evil cannot lodge with You. 5 The boastful cannot stand in Your presence;
You hate all evildoers. 6 You destroy those who tell lies;
the Lord abhors a man of bloodshed and treachery.

Paradox?

That section in Romans begins with this statement:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness..."

It continues mentioning twice that "God gave them up or over to...":

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity...

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions...

Many diseases show symptoms of its presence in a body--yellow eyes can suggest jaundice, shortness of breath can reveal asthma, etc. The sins (all of them) evident in the Romans 1 passage are symptomatic of creatures having forsaken the image in which they were created and the knowledge of the Creator being suppressed in unrighteousness--and the symptoms further reveal the abiding wrath of God on those people..."God gave them over..." Sexual sin was only part of the symptomatic evidence:

Ro.1:29
being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
1:30
slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant , boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
1:31
without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful...


I really like Mussorsky's Pictures At An Exhibition--even done by Emerson, Lake and Palmer. And why is it every time I hear "Ride of the Valkyrie" there's these helicopters?

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Yeah, Merle is an adult dose. Hard Core.

And Billy Gibbons (zz top) is a great guitar picker.

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

As if on cue, in rides Faucett on his white horse, separating good from evil. Can you ever restain yourself for one second in case the Spirit wants to tell someone He loves them? No, in bold print You Hate All Evildoers. Ever read about the New Covenant in those theology books of yours? I'm revoking your 4th grade sunday school teaching certificate.

That passage in Romans concludes with:

"Therefore you have no excuse or defense or justification, O man, whoever you are who judges and condemns another. For in posing as judge and passing sentence on another you condemn yourself, because you who judge are habitually practicing the very same things (that you censure and denounce.)"

"For the Son of man has not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them..."

Jim

ps. $10 says he doesn't give me the last word
pps. Can I have some of Junior's pain killers?

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

When I got saved and moved into the dorms, I couldn't bare to throw my CD collection away. I had everything Cat Stevens, CSN&Y, Hendrix, the Dead, Phish and countless others ever did. Music that I really loved. I stashed them in a bottom drawer of my dresser. I would take one out and look at them (fearing that I was craving the old things of Eygpt) and play one occasionally. As I needed money I would take stacks of CDs to Record and Tape traders and make a couple of bucks.

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

I really do not understand why Jim F.'s typing what he did would irritate you so much! Is not our loving God also the Righteous Judge of the Universe? Abraham knew He would judge justly. Can we not trust Him the same way?

Perhaps, the frustration comes from the American Evangelical Paradigm being challenged. I think it is good to have our 'pithy' assumptions challenged.

And, btw, Jim K. you jumped ahead many chapters to chapter 14 of Romans and the immediate context of that passage is dealing with our liberties in Christ and not judging a weaker brother. The context does not deal with the wrath of God as Romans begins. You qoute out of context. Please, let's not ignore context to prove a point.

Here is the passage in context

Romans 14:10-19
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11 For it is written,
"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.

How can we look forward to the judgement seat of Christ? Knowing that God's wrath has been satisfied on Calvary for my sins by the offering of His body and blood (that is, Himself once and for all). Is HE not altogether the Savior of those who believe? Isn't good to know He has saved us to the uttermost?

How can I look forward to the judgement seat of Christ if I do not know this? What do I have to look forward to but His wrath. Does not God's wrath abide on me? This is why He is the Savior of those who believe.

Perhaps, these thoughts will build us up?

(Message edited by dave drago on May 06, 2005)

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Dave, that's Romans chapter 2 verse 1. Haste makes waste. btw.

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

From Jim K.

"Like any other sexual pleasure, it's been around since the beginning of time. It really isn't mentioned all that much when you look at the entire Bible. Sodom of course, but read the story and they were more like homosexual rapists. It is prohibited in the law, I think only one sentence is devoted to it and with no penalty, as opposed to adultery. (Feel free to correct me on that...just do it in a way that ministers to the homosexuals please.)"

I will do my best to answer this in a way that will minister to all us sinners who are in need of forgiveness, no matter what the offense.

1. Jim, the penalty in the Old Testament for homosexuality is death.

Leviticus 20:13
If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

2. In the New Testament the hope of the Gospel for all who repent and receive His mercy (regardless of the sin) is that scripture promises we are washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the LORD Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God. We, who by nature are unrighteous are saved by the redeeming work of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

3. The Good News is that we do not have to live as a slave to our sinful desires. IMO, many people hear that God loves them but inside they realize that God is just and He is not happy with their condition. This is troublesome. (If, God loves me just as I am, then why the need for Calvary?). Perhaps, instead of extremes like 'God loves you' or, 'turn or burn', we should share the penalty of our sinful condition and the promise of forgiveness and restoration in Christ - the Good News.

Titus 2:11-15
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. 15These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority Let no one disregard you.

I hope this helps.

For Him,
Dave

p.s. I have met Jim F. He is from Texas but he doesn't have a white horse. Like me, he is a horse's rear-end. What can I say, but to know us is to love us!

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Thank you, addresses help me focus!

Romans 2 deals perfectly with my point about love and justice (or mercy and wrath) the Good News is that when He convicts us and leads us to repentance we are forgiven. It is God's kindness that leads us to the change. Salvation is all grace.

You are right we need to share the truth of our totally sinful condition (without sounding self-righteous)and our total inability to save ourselves, so we see our need and cry out to God and receive His grace. So many just share 1/2 or the other 1/2. The Gospel is both.

Romans 2
3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism."

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Jim and others,

1. This is relevant. Please hear me now and listen to me later! (LOL) We (Christine and I)left GG in 1989. We didn't even know why! And, for years, we fought the guilt trip thrown our way (Christine's family is still in). We knew we had to find another church. Neither of us had ever known anything but GG, and Christine was in since a child. Just think, no FACTnet, no support, no fellowship with others who left, only visits from my friends saying I was 'off' and forsaking my call. All we had was just an inner conviction that it was time to go.

2. Anyway, over the years, I was confronted with my peculiar CHS teachings. Liberty University helped me shed much. The pastors of the churches we attended also helped. Studying orthodox commentaries helped. Studying and learning hermeneutics helped. One by one, the false doctrines have been discarded. I imagine there is probably more to be jettisoned. God is patient with us.

3. For years, I have enjoyed studying without hearing, "Carl said this."For years, I have enjoyed not being judged as spiritual and 'right' by my professed loyalty to CHS and his little vision. I don't give a rat's hiny about what Carl says or who is loyal to him! I love FN for the connections, the shared stories and the challenging of our presuppositions from GG. This board is a help towards healing. And, I appreciate the diversity of viewpoints on this board.

4. Now don't get all sloppy and try to reach through the keyboard and hug me (LOL). I just want you to know that ALL the voices on this forum are apprecaited by me. God bless and I hope you all have a great weekend.

For Him,
Dave

[knew_it_then (knew_it_then)]

I can tell you junior's condemnation of homosexuals makes my blood boil. His sermons helped destroy a young teen in Lenox. My brother struggled with his sexual identity while we lived on campus in Lenox. Our parents were oblivious. There was a great reliance on the "body" to care for the children. He was 14 years old and felt so conflicted he attempted suicide. He left home at 15 when he could no longer stand the emotional turmoil. People knew of his struggle. Do you think one person took anytime with him or tried to offer him counsel. No, but they all had a judgement to offer. At 15, he made his living as a prostitute. That's what 12 years of TBS did for him.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Let's discuss where liars go.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Remember, 'Let God be true and every man a liar'; so maybe the ladies are okay on this one.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Sorry Doris. That was not directed at you. Just thought I'd give a fuller perspective on the wrath of God.

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

Speaking of the love that dare not speak its name...

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Context, context, context:


And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, <font color="0000ff">and went and hanged himself</font>.


Go, and do thou likewise.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

A little heavy reading...

for those addicted to bumpersticker and cliche Christianity... (http://www.credenda.org/issues/16-2.php)

[karen (karen)]

Here's a sample from Jim's suggested reading. I'm speechless:


"First of all, having a daughter who loves to be outdoors is not necessarily at odds with her femininity, unless she wants to be a logger or a roofer. A woman can be a skilled horseback rider, archer, or shooter, but she should not go off to war . It is a mother's duty to steer such things, teaching her daughters that God requires husbands and fathers to go to war, not daughters and mothers. In our so-called politically correct society, it is essential that we train our children to think biblically and to laugh out loud at the modern absurdities surrounding gender roles. God has made Himself abundantly clear regarding our role assignment, and it is our duty to teach our children how to enjoy themselves as His obedient creatures in this as in every other area. Daughters must be taught to have real reverence and admiration for the high calling women have been given by God, to be homemakers and life-givers. The central way to impart this is by esteeming our own calling in the home as wives and mothers.

Sometimes parents press a child into the tomboy mold. This may come about because a mother has trouble relating to a daughter because she does not seem very feminine in her appearance or interests. In that case, she may be dubbed a tomboy. Her parents may tell her regularly that she is a tomboy, and so she will simply strive to live up to the expectation. If she is not built like a china-doll, and her sisters or friends are, she may hear comparisons way too much. "Oh, she is our little tomboy, while little sister Susie here is so feminine and pretty!" It would be much wiser to teach, instruct, and encourage the naturally unfeminine one to be more feminine than to give her up as a tomboy (and the daughter who gives herself to fluffy dresses may need a little parental restraint). When a daughter first pronounces that she will not wear a dress, her mother should laugh and gently instruct her otherwise. If she begins to wear a baseball cap constantly, her parents should insist it come off. But this should have happened long before she turned fifteen. By that time it is very difficult to turn things around.

A girl who has been treated like a tomboy by her family may think her only future is in sports. And if she feels she cannot compete with the other girls in her looks, she may just give up all together and begin to adopt a more unfeminine persona as an attempt to say to everyone, "I don't care if you don't think I'm feminine, because I beat you to it: I don't want to be." This sort of daughter begins wearing dumpy, unfeminine clothes, and doesn't make an effort to look lovely. This may annoy a mother, which just causes her to become more critical of her daughter. "Why can't you wear a dress like the other girls? Why can't you try to look a little more feminine like your sister?" And that will only alienate the daughter all the more, increasing her insecurity, and making her more unattractive.

Unfortunately, mothers can reinforce this by sins of omission as well: not teaching their daughters how to do their hair or makeup, not encouraging them to be comfortable with their looks or shape, not complimenting them when they look good, not buying them attractive clothes or teaching them to love the lovely. And it's no good saying, "I don't know how to do hair or makeup, so I can't teach my daughter." You'd better learn how, and quick, or get out you wallet so someone else can help."

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Dave Drago - I agree with your JF is a horse's arse evaluation. I learned somehting new today that JF is also addicted to bumpersticker and cliché Christianity.

Knew-it-then
If your story is genuine my heart aches reading your brother's experience in the cult. I pray his life is better today.

(Message edited by louise connolly on May 07, 2005)

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

social engineering.

[lee (lee)]

Yup....speechless, cause I'm choking.
Now this is really twisted and sad.

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Knew It Then, thank you for joining us on this forum. I really don't know what to say, that's a sad story. I'm sorry your brother couldn't get help from a church that was shouting "no condemnation" all the time.

Doris, Send the $10 to P.O. Box 298, Ocean City NJ, 08226

Jim

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I have long hair too. I try to keep out of the makeup though.

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

Oh, the hair issue. Some of my best memories in GG revolve around the hair issue.

I was going through some past Grace Hours (looking for ideas for LW) a few weeks ago and came on a caller who wanted some definition on the hair issue. Pastah got around to saying something along the lines of "as long as the husband's hair is shorter than his wife's, then it's OK."

I guess I'm FINALLY in the clear... my hair is about 3 inches shorter than my wife's is (just past the shoulder blades).

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

So if your wife wants you to cut your hair, all she has to do is cut hers.

[lee (lee)]

I think they are really looking for BIG hair and long fingernails to go with the red lips and high heels!

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

I didn't write it, and I am not in agreement with 100% of it. But I am glad it riles you.

Louise, Bless your little heart, in the most southern use of that term. Rather than being addicted to "bumpersticker and cliche" theology I love to stick pins in it -- i.e.

"God hates the sin but loves the sinner."

This is pure nonsensical bull****.

Think about this for a minute--I'll try to make it like bumperstickers or cliches for those who love sound bites:

Sins don't exist apart from sinners any more than crimes exist apart from criminals.

Christ didn't die for 'sins' that exist on their own--he died for sinners.


You can't really appreciate the supreme love of God for sinners until you understand the enmity--that means 'war'--between God and sinners.

You can't understand what it means for Christ to be a 'mediator' between God and man until you understand the force of the wrath that necessitates mediation.


If we are saved from wrath by Christ, whose wrath is it exactly that we are saved from?


Oh, yeah, JK:

Carl always liked having the last word, too...old habits are hard to break aren't they?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

The person who wrote the article to which Karen refers is Nancy Wilson (not her from 'Heart') wife of Douglas Wilson oft quoted by our friend Minutus.

Whether you agree or disagree with her methodology, the fact that gender roles in American society are in trouble is pure fact. The Wilsons are never short of suggestions as to how we are to deal with the challenges we are faced with--and they are always swift to show up the fact that Christians have failed in many ways to address the beam their own eyes before addressing the woes of the world.

Good on 'em for that.

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

I'm putting my $10 on Sun King/Noble Causeway in the Derby today. It will probably pay around $800. I'll tithe to Factnet if it hits.

I liked the part about "quasi-homosexuality" in the Husbandry section. Does that mean my girlfriend can't wear my t-shirst anymore? Or me hers? Hey, it worked for Stevie Ray Vaughan.

I'm writing a love letter now:

Dear Other.

You are so totally different from me. God made you to be separate from me. I hope we will always be others, never mind that one flesh crap I read in the Bible. When I think of you, I think of our differences and hope we will always remain separate and different from each other. I also promise to never crawl around your feet emotionally, although if you continue to support your son's fascination with dolls I will browbeat you because what if it means he's a fag?

all my love,

your sweet other and real man, Jimbo

ps.Yaaawwwnnn.
pps. Jim, comparing me to Junior, is that the best you can do? The idea of all this was to say the gospel is for homosexuals as much as it is for heterosexuals. It's called evangelism. You could yield the right of way once in a while if you're as knowledgable as you claim to be. YOU HATE ALL EVILDOERS. At least that wasn't God's last Word.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

In the category of "Oh, it can't REALLY mean THAT..."

Ro 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


Really? It must certainly mean that God loves Esau less, doesn't it? Or it means that God just really hates Esau's sins right? Could it mean that God loves Jacob's good deeds and hates Esau's sins?

Nope.

This is one of those verses that means clearly exactly what it says. Later on the NT re-emphasizes the assessment of Esau in Heb.12:16.

Was Jacob any better than Esau? Did he 'do' anything to prompt God's favor? Did he 'will' himself into God's love?

Nope.

God loved him.

Before either of them had done any good or evil.

Romans 9:11
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth...

God loved Jacob.

God hated Esau.

Not fair is it?

Nope. If it was 'fair' we'd all be in blazes, that is why it is called 'grace'. Jacob got what he didn't deserve, and he didn't get what he did deserve.

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

Mmmm... makes me all warm and fuzzy inside when I hear folks talk about arbitrary God is.

...makes me wish everyone wasn't so locked into a linear view of space/time... as if God is constrained to it as we are.

[jack_leonard (jack_leonard)]

Jim F,
What does it mean that God so loved the world...?
Why did Christ die for sinners?

I had to expel a student from my school this week. He is excluded forever. I hate doing this, but I know it is absolutely necessary for the others to succeed. I evaluate teachers as well and may evaluate 2 people right out of the profession this month, a prospect that keeps me awake at night with anxiety. Nevertheless, I cannot allow them to go on getting paid as the expense of my students. I hate the sin, so I am ruthess and unrelenting, but I still love the sinner. If there is something I can do for them outside of my school, I will. I wish them well.

I know this is not a final judgment; this is discipline. I do it because I hate the sin and I love the sinner; I think, in the long run, it's the best thing for the sinner. Explain?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Kennedy,
You made it about having the last word. I didn't.

I was not making a case for God hating fags, or focusing mainly on homosexuality--which is why I listed the rest of the litany in Romans 1.

You tend to make this all about you.

What prompted my post was the cliche:

"God hates the sin, but loves the sinner."

I hold that cliche, and many others that American Christians bandy about like spiritual M&amp;Ms to be nonsensical bull****. That's my opinion. You have yours.

It had nothing to do with you or your feelings towards homosexuals.

"Sin is sin" is another bumpersticker cliche. All sin is not the same. Some sins are more grievous than others. I refer you to Christ's words to those who rejected him and the judgment being greater on those cities than on Sodom and Gomorrah and to the greater responsibility placed on teachers.

I did not say that God hating evildoers was his last word. You made it out that I meant that. I began by saying God loves sinners. You ignored that.

You tend to read selectively and you wear your hurting heart like a badge.

What makes you think that you are more interested in evangelism than I am? Where did I say that the gospel was not for every sort of person? Quote that back to me, will you?

You know, JK, I may get bent out of shape for many reasons by some of the things that folks post on here--but where do you get off telling me that I should 'yeild the right of way?' Aren't you the one who was all for free speech on another thread? Or are you just for free speech for those that don't upset your particular applecart?

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

No, it's all about you Jim. I officially now give you the last word...

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Thanks for your questions, Jack.

When we discipline our children we do it because we love them do we not?

When we execute a murderer this is not a warning, nor is it a disciplinary exercise to remould him to society's standards, is it?

There is a difference between how we treat children and murderers isn't there? Final punishment and discipline are different. But the latter is a warning against the former, isn't it?

Jack, I know I am responding to questions with questions but what is in hell at the end? Are 'sins' in hell or are 'sinners' there?

Did Christ sweep the sins under the rug and accept the sinner? Or did he take the full brunt of the wrath of God that was meant for me, and then declare me as righteous as he is?

Do we have a 'lite' view of sin and sinners? Are the consequences 'lite'? Are we born friends of God or are we born in Adam as enemies of God?


What does this mean?:

Eph 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The miracle of the gospel is that Christ makes peace between warring parties between whom is real severe hatred. We are born hating God--we are chilren of wrath by nature. God hates evildoers. But thank God that he became one of us, yet perfect and obedient to satisfy the law and became the perfect willing recipient of all the wrath of God which was meant for me. I became the recipient of all his righteousness, none of which I was worthy, all of which was imputed to my account. That is the miracle of the gospel of the God who justifies sinners.

[karen (karen)]

I removed this statement from the New Readers thread--well, because it didn't belong there even though it relates to what Jeannie posted. I said that a lot of what passes for biblical doctrine creates cognitive dissonance for me.

I can accept that divine love and wisdom may appear harsh in particular circumstances, as illustrated by Jack. But I will never accept the vision of God's nature that is presented by some. What terrifies me about many Christians is their willingness to contort themselves to line up with the letter, even when the character that emerges is hideous. I believe this is another manifestation of the cult mentality. If there is no tension between the written word and the Holy Spirit, then why do we need the Spirit? I am convinced that God wants us always to struggle with reconciling His loving nature with the harsh realities of our human existence. And may God have mercy on us if we ever grow comfortable with the idea that He hates our brothers and sisters.

[jack_leonard (jack_leonard)]

Jim F,
I still don't get it.
I just cannot accept that God sent His son only for his own purposes (to declare his righteousness; to vindicate his holiness, or whatever). I think he also sent his son because he loved me, a child of wrath. That seems so simple, a child would appreciate it.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

The written word makes claims for itself, Karen, to be given to us by whom?

If there is tension within that Giver Himself then He is a cosmic schizophrenic. I think the problem is rather with us. Lining up to the letter requires no contortions, it requires transformation by renewing of the mind:

12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

That renewal is the work of the same Spirit who inspired the Scriptures.

What you call 'hideous' I call wonderful. It is wonderful that God himself became one of us to end the war over sin between our Maker and his creatures. It is wonderful that Jesus Christ stood in the way as an enemy of His own Father crying out, "My God, my God why have you forsaken me?" It is wonderful to me that this cry went out for my sake. He was separated so that I might be joined.

The Christian message of the Gospel of Grace is God's answer to the hideousness of sin. Sin is barbaric, disgusting, degrading and we are all colored to the core with it. Sin made us God's enemies and objects of His fierce wrath. Christ as mediator stood between us and that wrath, and it was poured out on Him. How else did you understand the gospel message?

We are all repulsive to God as sinners:

Hab. 1:1:13
Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

As far as God hating, if He did not you would not ever understanding anything about His love.

Jas 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

But our hope is in this prospect:

Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby...

And:

Ro 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Concerning brothers and sisters...it would of course depend on who your father is whether God hates them or not.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

"I think he also sent his son because he loved me, a child of wrath. That seems so simple, a child would appreciate it."

Whose wrath were you a child of?

What we are not seeing here is the amazing prospect of Christ making peace between two parties between whom is much enmity and hatred. We are born hating God. This is the greatest injustice, we hate the very one who gives us life and breath. His wrath is aimed at us. His anger is justified, yes even His hatred. But there is a Redeemer who stands in the way of this Holy wrath. This is one of the greatest mysteries to me, how God could extend His great love towards us 'while we were yet sinners.' It is only because Christ satisfied that just wrath on our behalf that God could even set eyes on us.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

fkoktop5jyjbwjkgkldfmskl;am;klhnklASDNKLHBNASKL}

[knew_it_then (knew_it_then)]

My parents are still a part of the church so I am very reluctant about what I post. Not that I don't address them personally about their involvement, but they truly can't identify with what we see as the problems within GG. They have been in nearly 38 years and not one of their five children continued to attend TBS or GG after leaving home. I would call this a sign from God.

Unfortunately, my brother still has very serious issues. I would like to ask the posters here to pray for my brother. As a family we have reconnected with him after 23 years of him being apart from us. I just pray for him to find peace and for him to know how much God loves him. I try to minister to him but he can't get beyond the past.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Dear Knew_It_Then,

I have a very good exit counselor who may offer solace to your brother. I also recommend Wellspring In-patient treatment, it was founded by Dr. Paul Martin. It is intensive therapy for recovering from spiritual abuse issues. If I can lend your family any assistance please write me at Jeannieree44@aol.com

[buggin (buggin)]

Dear Knew _it_then,

Your brothers story reignites my anger at the twisted thinking of GGWO.
As Jeannie pointed out Wellspring has very qualified people that know all about GGWO and would be willing to talk with your brother by phone. Someone in his situation, burned by other 'christians(?)'
are often very reluctant to trust others
even the qualified. But I am certain its worth the step.
In all the advice others may give you,
please consider my next suggestion as just that, only a suggestion; Don't try to 'minister' to your brother. No preaching. (You said he heard it all before). Love Him where he is at, with his specific needs. My experience shows that most people resent being the object of 'being ministered to' as if they needed another reminder that they are 'a sinner'.
If its worth anything to you I hope it helps.
You sound like a good man in the most biblical sense of the word. Maintain your sanity; Continue to tell your story and hear others tell theirs.
Stick around and in time, please post as to how your brother is doing.
Thank You.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

OTP wrote:
<font color="0000ff">Mmmm... makes me all warm and fuzzy inside when I hear folks talk about arbitrary God is.

...makes me wish everyone wasn't so locked into a linear view of space/time... as if God is constrained to it as we are.</font>

Never mistake grace and mercy for what we might call arbitrariness or capriciousness. Time is linear, and God has chosen to reveal himself in it. Grace and mercy are not owed to anyone, nor are they dispensed to all equally--that's what makes grace what it is.

Of all those in the antediluvian age only Noah found grace in God's sight along with his family. Noah was not any better than the rest. Jacob was certainly not a better example of humanity than Esau, Isaac was not better than Ishmael, etc. They did no work and had no internal goodness that prompted God to love them, but that does not mean that what God does not choose to show us of himself makes him 'arbitrary.'

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

> Never mistake grace and mercy for what we might call arbitrariness or
> capriciousness.

i wasn't mistaking them for anything, only signaling my ambivalence with the definition we have and perspective we happen to view them from.

> Time is linear, and God has chosen to reveal himself
> in it.

yeah, i realize that. that doesn't have anything to do with the fact that time is a construction necessitated only by our limited consciousness. on a fundamental physical level time is merely an outgrowth of quantum-mechanical processes manifesting on the macroscopic scales to which we are used. just because God has chosen to reveal himself in linear time doesn't mean that his understanding is limited to that arena. i have faith that God has far more information to go on when formulating the judgment that "esau have I hated" than that used when picking up pennies off a sidewalk. this is a major problem that i've got with the calvinist election concept; it's too simple and doesn't take into account that God isn't willing that any should perish. don't tell me that God's will isn't potent enough to affect His design.

> Grace and mercy are not owed to anyone, nor are they dispensed
> to all equally--that's what makes grace what it is.

that's correct.

> Of all those in the antediluvian age only Noah found grace in God's
> sight along with his family. Noah was not any better than the rest.
> Jacob was certainly not a better example of humanity than Esau, Isaac
> was not better than Ishmael, etc. They did no work and had no internal
> goodness that prompted God to love them, but that does not mean that
> what God does not choose to show us of himself makes him 'arbitrary.'

thanks for the clarification there, jim. could you now direct your discourse into the arena of moral law? ought the Moral Law Giver be subject to His moral law, or no?

(I'm not expressing any opinion here, in spite of what you might infer from my question. I'm merely curious)

on a side note, i'm off for some professional development in italy - leaving today. there's a chance i could be on again before the flight but i'm unsure about that possibility. if you don't hear from me, pray for my wife and i as we spend the next month looking at paintings and frolicking in tuscany.

OTP

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Have a great trip, you and the Mrs. OTP. I've copied your post onto a word document and will happily answer it on a later post when you return or in an email--if there's one to send it to.

But I will leave you with this, you wrote:

<font color="0000ff">this is a major problem that i've got with the calvinist election concept; it's too simple and doesn't take into account that God isn't willing that any should perish.</font>

A. If God isn't 'willing' that a single human being would ever 'perish'--why does anyone ever perish? As you said, isn't God's will potent enough to effect his design?

B. If we take the statement 'God isn't willing for any to perish' in the context in which it is found, who exactly is it that he isn't willing that they should perish...any of whom?

C. Please don't go off on a tangent about free will etc. What makes us think that our puny wills will ever thwart God's will anyway? Especially when he says that he will do all his good pleasure. Our 'free will' regardless of which stand we take, had nothing to do with where or to whom or when we were born. It had nothing to do with our race or ethnic group. Our 'free will' will not keep us from having a tree from falling on us or being in front of an eighteen wheeler at the 'wrong' time. Our free will will not determine how long we live or when and how we die. (Ps.139) It will also have nothing to do with God's ability or his intention to save us. He could (and IMO does) save everyone he is willing to save.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

"Calvinistic Election" simplistic?

1) Merely calling it "Calvinistic Election" (although it is simple in many ways because it lets God be God) is VERY simplistic because the doctrine of Sovereign Grace Election traces "backwards" from Calvin-to-Luther-to-Augustine-to-Paul. In fact Martin Luther, in his classic "The Bondage of the Will" addresses the foundation of Election as God's Sovereign choice with greater authority than Calvin. Truly, the so-called "Calvinistic" view of election is rooted in Augustine and therefore in Pauline theology.

2) The doctrine of Sovereign Grace Election is *anything* but simplistic when studied with the depth of treatment that real theologians give it - i.e. the kind you DON'T find at GGWO/MBC&amp;S.

3) When God does the saving based on HIS choice with order of Salvation (regeneration->repentance/faith->conversion) based in God's work ALONE, then evangelism is freed from the BONDAGE of attempting to get someone to "make a decision for Jesus" or "pray a prayer to receive Christ" - notions that are difficult to support with Scripture.

4) Beware of making Calvin and "Calvinism" a straw man for arguments that don't represent what the doctrine really teaches.

Here's a great place to start understanding the premise for the Reformed Faith - also known as "Calvinism":

http://www.logos.com/media/productinfo/VanTilMadeMeReformed.pdf

Yours in Christ,


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

(Message edited by nonotone on May 08, 2005)

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Buggin:

I really liked what you posted above, especially
"most people resent being the object of 'being ministered to'"
The whole ministering thing resounded with me. It is so condescending. It reminds me of the TBS/GGWO cult mentality who believe they are spiritually superior as they minister to those less fortunate.

I appreciate reading the posts of so many people in their varied walks with Christ. So many people in different stages of exiting or being long gone from the cult called GGWO.

It is the posts of those who believe they know so much more about the Bible than the rest of us and they are going to minister it to us all that is repulsive. I realize their insecurity must be incredible but it does irk me from time to time. Thank God for the scroll button.

[iris (iris)]

Well said Louise,
the ministering seems to be done by a more spiritual person towards a) an outsider b) a new person c) anybody weak. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

But there must be a godly way to serve and minister, without talking down to someone. How does it happen? What is the difference? Would the real ministering be more practical and more focused on the person and their situation than the ready answers that we are going to give once the other person has stopped talking?

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I believe the intent behind 'ministering' to another should be to make them greater than yourself. And it should not be 'done' with the idea of reproducing yourself. Each person is unique before God and deserves respect from us as such. We should expect Christ to be evident in His people. It's not about building things. It's about loving one another and loving God. Simple, really; but complex in its application.

[knew_it_then (knew_it_then)]

When I say I minister to by brother, I don't preach to him. I love him as he is, accept him as he is. I let him know he has value and that I want him to part of our lives. I am in no position to preach to him or anyone else. So maybe minister was the wrong word. I know he wishes I was his mother and not his sister, so maybe mother is a better word.

Somehow I knew I would be sorry, I posted here.

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Knew-It-Then:

Please don't be sorry you posted here. Your story stirred up in me so much of what makes me sick about this cult. Buggin's bit of advice to you was a catalyst for me to vent about some of the know it alls who post regularly on factnet. I apologize if I in anyway indicated you sharing your heart on factnet was anything less than deeply touching and another story used by God to expose the awful cult named GGWO.

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Knew-It-Then,

You can reach me at wokbts@aol.com

Jim

[ski (ski)]

the contents below ... well just treat it as you want ;)

I am imaginary person.
Can you imagine pastah tuned to blues music:

Gypsy woman told my mother ’fore I was born,
You got a boy-child coming, gonna be a son of a gun.
Gonna make pretty womens jump and shout,
And then the world wanna know what this all about.

But you know I’m here.
Everybody knows I’m here.
Well, I’m the hoochie coochie man.
Everybody knows I’m here.

I got the black cat bone and I got a mojo tooth.
I got the john the conquerer root, gonna mess with you.
I’m gonna make you girls lead me by my hand,
And then the world will know the hoochie coochie man.

But you know I’m here.
Everybody knows I’m here.
Well, I’m the hoochie coochie man.
Everybody knows I’m here.

On the seventh hour, on the seventh day,
On the seventh month, seven doctors say,
"he was born for good luck, that you’ll see."
I got seven hundred dollars; don’t you mess with me!

But you know I’m here.
Everybody knows I’m here.
Well, I’m the hoochie coochie man.
Everybody knows I’m here.

Standing ovations.....

(Message edited by ski on May 11, 2005)

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Sergei - you are ENTIRELY too Americanised!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

You da man! You rock Bro! Er, I mean you are a blues brother Bro.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif

[minutus (minutus)]

Sergei is on a Mission from God!

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Sergei - you can order your black suit, tie, shoe, and hat, oh yea, and the dark glasses on EBay.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[minutus (minutus)]

As I was teaching on Galatians in Turku, this passage brought to mind the behaviors I'd witnessed in Lenox/Baltimore, the striving to become part of the Inner Circle and the expectation that it was a desirable thing. That was the first time I even considered something might be wrong.

4:17 They court you eagerly, but for no good purpose; they want to exclude you, so that you would seek them eagerly.

[anova (anova)]

Yeah, and then if you're unlucky enough to get in, you get to experience how boring and depressing it is to be around Junior.

Oh sure, you get to sweep in and out of services with Junior after they've started and before they've ended. It must look very exciting like they're big doings going on. It isn't. It's BORING. And spiritually EMPTY.

And then you ask yourself:

Is that all there is?

[mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale)]

I got to ride on the airplane once to SB. Wasn't all that glamorous either.

[anova (anova)]

Was Junior in the back seat of the plane with a beautiful blonds or brunette?

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

No I wasn't there that day....http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale)]

I don't remember, I think I fell asleep while wishing I hadn't gonehttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lame.gif

[anova (anova)]

Aayah,

That was Juniah's plane your were on, allright.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Kathleen and I flew to Maine with him once. It was a beautiful brunette that day. And no, I will not say who is was.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif I tried to be cool and ignore, but Kathleen was VERY "underwhelmed."http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Blessings,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

Dad,
How on earth were you able to reconcile staying in a ministry where it was apparent that there were adulterous/fornicaterous (?) things going on? Just asking....

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

At that time I did not know about the adultrous affairs. Just thought it was a little odd behavior for a guy eleven years my senior.

Blessings,

Ralph
Dad to Dina
1Cor 15:10

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly that they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

That's funny....it was the only verse I had previously marked in 1 Corinthians 15....thanks!