Those born in or who were young when parents joined

[plaid (66.91.59.248)]

I'm interested in knowing if there are more like me, raised practically from birth in BS/GGWO. I moved with my family from Maine to Lenox, I must have been around 5 or 6 when we moved to Lenox. I graduated the year everyone left Lenox so it was very easy to stay behind, at least physically.

I am not too comfortable giving out my name right now, I just found this board last night. I think many of you old timers would remember me as a young child, I'm a grown woman in my 30's with a couple of kids now, eek.

[Anonymous (67.243.240.5)]

So stay Anononymous Plaid.
Welcome to Factnet.
Where Carl Stevens can't hide his evil until he repents.
Greater Graces worst nightmare....

[Roberta (151.203.163.174)]

Hi plaid...I am sure there are many of the "born into's" out there that will want to be heard.

I always wondered if it was harder for the kids who were born into...especially if they left. The world must surely have been a strange experience.

Glad to have you post. I do hope others will.

Blessings

[plaid (66.91.59.248)]

Thanks for the welcome! I have to say, this has been some very interesting reading. Right now I have a bunch of time on my hands, but probably not enough to wade through it all.

I'm still in touch with a few friends, though I think I'm considered a "lost cause" - I think I still get (and send) cards at Christmas out of nostalgia.

My childhood upbringing is a great source of humor for my husband. He likes to tease me about missing school dances, pointing out music from the 70's and 80's and asking me if it's the first time I've heard that song, and he is completely astounded at the "no touch love" - he really can not believe that a large majority of us kids actually took that to heart.

I'm not known for griping about anything that happend while growing up to those around me, but one thing that always has haunted me was that, at least in my family, I always knew that my mother would never stand up for me if it mean going against "Pastor." I always promised myself that I would protect and love my children as gifts from God and view raising them as a special mission. I may have gone overboard with my kids, my husband and friends know that if anything in anyway threatens my children's happiness and health I will be ruthless.

Hope to hear from more of you, take care!

[Roberta (151.203.163.174)]

You sound like one awesome mom...and trust me when I tell you...the 80's music for the most part was awful *LOL* you didn't miss much there...now the 70's?...well!! "oooh oooh oooh oooh, Stayin' Alive, Stayin' Alive"

*LOL*

[Anonymous (67.243.240.5)]

PLAID,

I'm not kidding when I say it had to be extremely difficult to have that kind of issue with your Mom.

If you remember the Lenox Courtcase, Carl Stevens was found to have told Elizabeth Doveydenas at one point that she "should break her childrens will, spank them till they cry, and not to listen to their pleas."
That's Carl for you even today. Freely giving advice on how to discipline your children.
Harshly or not. He doesn't care as long as you train them to "love their pastahh"
This is a guy who can't handle his own kids giving advice to parents on disciplining their children.

I'm glad you see from where you came.
Your perspective now will make all the difference in your childrens life.

[Bob Brinton (70.17.138.90)]

Hi Plaid. I was 24 when I came to Lenox for Bible school in 1976. I had put music (rock/jazz/classical) aside for the most part before I even got there. My life had been so wrapped up in it for so long. I think it was a necessary personal cross for a long season. Eventually (about 1981, I think), I started listening again. There was some very good music during both the 70s and 80s and a lot of very bad stuff as well. I listen to a lot of music, including stuff that I got rid of before Lenox. Right now I'm listening to a Schnittke Cello Concerto.

My son Dan, who grew up under the influence of the Beaks and its followup, has said that he doesn't remember a lot of the kind of stuff posted here. I guess he was busy fighting his own battles. But in his teen years he had those of us around him who are pretty individual in our thinking. I never was really sold out to 'licking the boots of death born out of fear'. My kids have both grown up with things like Jethro Tull and the Beatles and other stuff that's come down the road like Sarah McLachlan and Alanis Morrisette; along with some jazz and a lot of crazy classical stuff. We appreciate creativity and diversity as a family, and encourage it in our kids and in other believers.

Since you seem to be local (western Mass.?), maybe I know you. I'll put my email address on here if you care to ask anything offboard.

[Plaid (66.91.59.248)]

I'm not really local anymore. I've moved around so much since then. I spend a few years in the area and then started moving around. My husband is from the are though, it's a joke how we grew up so close and met halfway across the country.

I remember you from growing up, I think your kids were lots younger than me though.

[HerkyBird (209.103.235.184)]

Best wishes, Plaid. I'll bet we knew each other at some point. I always swore my kids were going to start and finish school in one school district with the same group of kids. Guess that's a reflection of going to school so many places myself. (public school, southern maine christian schools, stevens christian day school, etc.)

[Plaid (66.91.59.248)]

We probably do know each other! Funny thing is, my poor kids are growing up in the "Army brat" category so no "same school stability" for them. They seem ok but I know it's going to get harder as they get older.

[Dan Huisjen (204.176.40.215)]

Hi Plaid, I don't know if my name will sound familiar or not. Personally, I'm horrible at remembering names. I can remember dogs' names, and that concrete expands by a factor of .0000065 per degree F, but not names.

I was nearly 11 when my family moved from S. Berwick to the Berkshires in '77. My guess is that you must be just a bit younger than me. "Born in" essentially means after the S. Berwick Commune opened in '72. When did everyone leave Lenox? 1988? There about?

As for the being rooted thing, somehow I've never lived anywhere longer than five years, although my wife and I have just passed our fifth Anniversary. We've settled in a small town and are just now having a 50 year roof put on so that we'll never have to have it done again, or at least be old enough not to have to worry about it directly.

I stop by factnet now and again. I think it's kind of funny how, even though most here are no longer Beakers, they're mostly still Fundie Christians. Maybe I'm a fundimentalist too in a way, except that rather than accepting the whole thing, I find that small flaws make the whole structure unreliable. But it's fun to come here every now and again and yank some chains.

Anyway, tell your boy to keep his head down if he goes anywhere sandy and warm and full of oil and other fundies.

[Dan Huisjen (204.176.40.215)]

By the way, looking at time stamps, Herky and Plaid, when do you sleep?

[Plaid (66.91.59.248)]

I'm in a late time zone, and I have insomnia, hence the late night posting, ugh.

My husband is in the sandbox right now, he's been ok so far. Some close calls, though.

[HerkyBird (209.103.235.184)]

I have no excuse. It was a holiday weekend, I stayed up late for two decent TV movies in a row while working on hobby stuff, then checked in here.

I'll keep thinking safe thoughts at your husband, Plaid. Please tell him we'll be thinking of him and waiting for news of his safe return. Are your kids taking his absence okay? Hopefully they can still exchange e-mail with him.

[Plaid (66.91.59.248)]

The kids are pretty young, 5 and 2. The oldest misses her dad lots and writes all the time. His email access is sporadic at best but he usually can call once a week. We are just beyond the halfway point, if the Jan return is still a go, so it's all downhill from here, thankfully.

Thank you for the kind thoughts, we all appreciate them.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Hi Plaid,
I'll be praying for you and your family. Although I'm not an 'army brat', my family travelled from one Naval shipyard to another while growing up. My father designed weapons stowage systems for ships, subs....

I went to 6 HS's. Getting a consistent education was difficult, as we don't have standards throughout the country. We weren't such a transient society then as we are now.

I got to hone my observational skills (without knowing it) by all my new schools and new communities. I feel quite comfortable with people from all over with different language, looks and customs.

In some of the places we ended up, there were others that also were on the move and we became our own community. Thats where I felt better about always being the 'new kid that had a funny accent'.

Sounds like you are patient and prayerful. I willjoin you in prayer for your husband.

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

.

[Plaid (66.91.59.248)]

Thank you Lee for your prayers, I know he needs them. It's very wierd, to say the least, looking at the news and seeing my husbands location mentioned. I generally watch for a few seconds then turn to cartoons.

I agree Lee, that my kids are learing to deal with all kinds of customs by moving so much. The last few places we have been the definate ethnic minority and my oldest has learned quite a lot - I am so glad tolerance of others differences is coming so easy to her. My youngest is two and we haven't moved yet, this war stopped our next move.

Thanks for all the replies and posts, it's been wonderful hearing from others.

[Dave Drago (66.137.210.228)]

Plaid,
I spent ten years in the Army. My wife is a great American for putting up and supporting all my Airborne Ranger Hoooaahh stuff. You are a great American for standing by your man while he is in the sandbox. My brother shipped out today for a short stint in the sandbox. May God bless you and keep you and your husband during this time. Thank you for your sacrifice and selfless service to your country. My family and our nation owe you and all the dependents our gratitude, prayers and support.
For Him,
Dave Drago

[Anonymous (209.103.235.184)]

Tell your brother to keep his head down and come home soon, Dave. Wishing him safety, emotional healing, and a fast return.

Herc

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

.

[Anonymous (151.203.157.69)]

.

[abi (abi)]

Was anyone here present in S.Berwick during the years 1980-1987? I was a child member of TBS at the time. I did not live in the church- but I went to school at the affiliated Seacoast Christian Academy My family moved the West coast during the Baltimore scandal (in 1988?) but they were no less twisted for it. Not long afterwards I ran away, I was on the streets for a while and eventually was made a ward of the state. Legally I am an orphan, I have been fending for myself ever since. There were a lot of dark and disturbing things (namely sexual and physical abuse) that happened to me in those years, but I have a lot of unanswered questions since there has been no one to help me patch together my fragmented past. I am in shock that I found this web site! (I guess I was finally ready to look- life is stable and good now) Does anyone from that era perhaps remember the Coffmans? Friends of the wealthier and more prominent members, the Hills: David, Antoinette, & Buff. Who else? Well, I remember Nancy & Nancy (Alquist and Brown) singing their saccharine duets for service. To pass the time I used to mark in a bible how many times Pastor Brown would say, "Oh, Sweet Jesus!", in a sermon- it was always a lot. I remember the Waldens, and Mountain Mike who died mysteriously- I went to school with his son Shawn Fletcher...their laundry mat used to be right across the street.
Any other survivors out there?

[lojemc (lojemc)]

danny I lived right across from you in South Berwick on the third floor and went to school with you all through high school, I sat next to you in math class just so I could see your answers you always were the smartest one. lori

[lojemc (lojemc)]

has any one been in contact with the legueuxs lisa or marlene if so please let me know @lojemc@YAHOO.COM oh and danny like i mentioned on another thread one of my fondest memories was genevas woopie pies you have to remember that!

[herkeybird (herkeybird)]

Hmmmmm . . . I remember (the former) June Jorgensen in that room. Can't remember which family was there next. Maybe Dan will.

P.S. He stopped using Danny about the time his hairline moved behind his ears. :}

[huisjen (huisjen)]

I stopped using Danny about the time we left S. Berwick. It's just some others are slow on the uptake.

Dan

[san (san)]

Lojemc

Do you know San?? Hows the weather and is company gone??

[lojemc (lojemc)]

san I might know you, do you have your bake bean recipe published in a well known cook book? heard it was on the best sellers list, and the illustrations are some of the best i've seen.company is still here.and the weather is sunny and 70

[lojemc (lojemc)]

DAN SORRY FOR CALLING YOU DANNY , OH AND SORRY ABOUT YOUR HAIR TOO.

[san (san)]

Bean!!
They are the best and the recipe book is great
I can get you one if you like. So good to see you are now on FN. There are some young adults that could use your wisdom. You may know most of them.
Good luck God bless. Take FN as you would a church you just started attending. Keep what you want and throw out what you down.
Love you

[lojemc (lojemc)]

san, thanks I just wanted to see if i could find some old friends , i remember so many names but can't remember faces. but yours is comming back to me ." my company" told me about this site some people are really bitter huh? I choose to remember the good and all the wonderful people ,and characters we met over the years most of my memories are of the fun we had together. Im sorry some other people didn't have those same memories. hope to see you soon love bean

[lojemc (lojemc)]

oh san thanks for the woopie pie recipie i didn't know you had it . that can go in the next cook book love bean

[huisjen (huisjen)]

I'm really not too upset with my hairline, Lori. It's just that my clearest memory of you is that you , along with Bernadette Dentremont and several others, figured out how to squirt tiny streams of saliva by just lifting your tounge and opening your mouth. Someone actually had to tell you it wasn't nice to spit at people. Of course I remember you.

I remember the day that Joey Kalunbeck kicked my ass on the Lenox playground. It must have been around 8th grade. He attacked me for no reason other than it seemed like he could beat me up. After some bruising, I managed to land one solid punch in his eye, and that seemed to have brought him up short, so I tried to just walk away. I got to around the middle of the long classroom building when he caught up to me and drop kicked me.

All the kids from the playground were cheering him on.

Just before I landed that one, I had asked him why he wanted to attack me. He said, "Because I hate your ****ing guts." I remember his dad asking me why Joey would do this to me, and I was able to give him the direct quote.

What a place. A place where it was assumed okay to beat someone up or spit on them because you thought you had the ability to do so.

Congratulations on being able to choose to remember only the good.

Dan

[lojemc (lojemc)]

dan as i said before not everyone had good memories, but because some people choose not to dwell on the bad aspects of it doesn't mean that they led a charmed life growing up. I understand you had a hard time of it , but I never, never cheered on joey to hit you and i think your lumping everone together. i'm sure we all had our differences at one time or another, I still have an indention where you kicked me with your hiking boots, but that was 20 years ago and i'm over it now . i was just interested on knowing how you were doing, and i really wish you and your family the best. also in reguards to joey i really don't think it was personal he hated everyone and i'm so sorry that he decided to take it out on you. lori

[huisjen (huisjen)]

"I still have an indention where you kicked me with your hiking boots..."

I did? I wonder why.

No, it wasn't like the whole school was assembled for the event. There were many who did not and would not have participated. And no, spitting in my face wasn't on the same level as unprovoked physical attack.

But as I said. "What a place..."

Dan

[lojemc (lojemc)]

i don't know why you think i spit in your face , and the time you kick me it was in math class not on the play ground and all i did was ask you how you were. i did not participate in what joey did to you like i said i think your lumping all of us together, i never had any bad feelings towards you. lori

[huisjen (huisjen)]

I still wonder why I would have done that. I really don't lash out at people without reason. It still shows? Was it bad enough that you sought medical treatment? Was I punished for it? I really have no memory of this.

And I think you spit in my face because I do remember you spitting in my face. It wasn't a big hawk and spit of phlegm, but it was a way to squirt saliva in a small, almost subtle stream.

I think part of the problem back then was that we were all told that we were god's chosen, that we were better than any other people in the world. With that came a certain smugness to many. All through school, kids were very cliqueish. I was one of those who didn't belong to any clique, so I was pushed aside and belittled.

I guess what's set me off here is that you started by using the deminutive form of my name (which is a belittlement) when I obviously don't. And then you say you're sorry about my hair too, which you have no control over and therefore means nothing. It implies that none of it at all is sincere. It's just pushing me aside. Sounds like old times. Subtle, like a thin stream of saliva, but I notice these things.

Do I lump you with everyone else? Yes, some, because even if you weren't there that one day, you were there for most of that decade of abuse. Like most, you let it happen to me and others. Do I assume that all those kids are unchanged as adults? No. Do I hold a grudge against you after 22 or more years? No, you really aren't that important. But do I think you are being as subtly dismissive and condescending now as the average kid was then? Yup.

You weren't bad to me as a kid per se, compared to the average. But the average was pretty frickin rude. I guess it's a character flaw of mine that I'm distrustful of those who come at me with overwhelming sweetness and light when they knew me then. I'm much more comfortable with those who say, "Whoa. It sucked to be you. It sucked to be any of us." For me, Factnet is about understanding the past. I'm not here just to party and remember all the good times.

And you sat next to me so you could cheat?

(Message edited by huisjen on February 06, 2005)

[jeannie (jeannie)]

"I'm much more comfortable with those who say, "Whoa. It sucked to be you. It sucked to be any of us."

You are right. What happened to you is not pretty or pleasant, you should have been protected from it and you were not.

Maybe your story with no glossing over, will give a teen right now the courage to leave. Thank you.

[lojemc (lojemc)]

dan i didn't use your name danny to belittle you i used it because that is how i remembered you and i mentioned your hair line because herkybereky said something about it, and you called me slow, im sure we're all older fatter ,have less hair whatever, the point was belive it or not i was glad to see you name on factnet i even asked about you on another thread, and i have to tell you that everyone had their little deamons to deal with growing up and i was trying to say that it's better to remember the good things in life rather than dwelling on the bad i think you would be suprised to know what other people went through and i'm not trying to diminish the fact that you in particular had a hard time, you probably don't remember that in south berwick i tried talking to you but you were very closed off to people maybe it was just your way ,but you kept people at a distance for whatever reasons. we all had problems ,conflicts, and people who treated us badly, i just think that those same problems happen no matter where we live it's a part of life good or bad but only we can choose how to respond to them. i'm deeply sorry if i hurt you in any way. lori

[plaid (plaid)]

I am one that has pretty bad memories of school, though I graduated in late 80's so I am not the same era as you both (I think).

There were some "good" times, and some people who were not as cruel as others.

Though I too find it really really amusing that people who literally treated me like garbage in school have contacted me and want to laugh over old times. Yeah, all those times you mocked me for being ugly, awkward and having a very screwed up family.

I am not bitter and a LONG time ago I learned that how I was treated in HS was no idication of how I would fit in in the "real world". In fact, goofy reading freaks like me make very good company and I have had no trouble making friends. But I guarantee if I had stayed in TBS/GGWO I would still be incredibly insecure, and trying to live up to some false standard set by people who should know better.

[huisjen (huisjen)]

Lori, do you know the racial slur used for Dutchmen?

Generally, we don't need one. Just calling us Dutchmen is harsh enough.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif In some situations I do tend toward the argumentative. Anyway, I've probably done a fine job of getting off on the wrong foot. That in itself is probably a fair indication of how I am, but mostly I'm okay. Really.

In my life I've been an EMT, picture framer, computer room cleaner, parking ticket writer, naval officer, carpenter, ditchdigger/stonemason, linoleum installer, forestry lab worker, undergrad student (twice) and now my wife and I are farming. The navy bit included a supply ship in Desert Storm, and I still have a lot of odd dreams where I'm still in, or at least wearing the uniform. I once gave 1.8 liters of bone marrow (surgically extracted from my butt), but the recipient died anyway. I once got my private pilot certificate, but flying isn't cheap, so I didn't continue. I also went through a master gardener class and did some volunteer work with that program. I've built as series of small boats, mostly plywood.

We now do organic veggies for the farmer's market, a few small groceries, and some restaurant trade. Just now is the off season, so we have knitting group, painting group, regular dinners over at friends' houses, plus we each have a musical instrument we play with. (She, mandolin, me, concertina.) I'm homebrewing beer. There's also the x-country skis, skates, snowshoes, and (not at the same time) chainsaw to play with. We are both officially overedjumicated for the work we do, but at least my degrees are in the fields of agriculture/environmental sciences. We have two cats, five geese, twenty five ducks, and two ram Jacob sheep (who are father and son, and one of whom is to be traded for a ewe lamb this spring).

We are godless heathen ourselves (thank something-or-other), but count among our friends a buddhist-taoist, a mormon, and someone who seems to observe jewish, christian, and pagan holidays. (She just presented us with a Bridget's cross for Imbolc, and insisted we thank her chickens with a little prayer before we offed them all last fall.)

I have been a vegitarian for the last ten years, but those chickens made some small inroad.

I guess that's it in a nutshell.


Plaid, I was class of '85, but left in the spring of '83 and finished highschool out in the real world. It was good to find that all the things Mrs. Snipe said about how awful things were out in public schools were complete lies.

Dan

P.S. I could make coments about the state of Herkeybird's hair too....http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif



(Message edited by huisjen on February 06, 2005)

[herkeybird (herkeybird)]

[and Herkeybird says nothing to continue this line of thought, preferring instead to chuckle quietly . . . .]

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

dan...i loved your comment about dutchmen... because i am one myself... grew up in a very closed dutch crc community...

[whitehorses (whitehorses)]

i lived on the dutch side of the island of st maarten for 12 yrs. we called dutch coffee the litte green bottles filled with yep you guessed it heineken!

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

i was in st maart in 77 for a week... my only time on an island... i would love to go back and stay for the next 12 years...

[whitehorses (whitehorses)]

its changed alot

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

like everything unfortunately

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Unfortunately when I came to GG Baltimore I was so zealous and ecstatic to be there. I believed it was Heaven on earth and had no idea what was really going on with my kids.

My daughter has shared some of her story. She was just a brand new Christian when we came. She was called "satan's little helper" by the infamous "spirit filled" Love. It stuck with her.

My son went through more than words can be penned here. If my kids choose to share more of their story I think it would help others. I would like to share more but without their permission I can't.

Suffice it to say they were emotionally and spiritually raped and abused as brand new babes in Christ. To this day they have a very difficult time trusting "Christians" and have no desire ever to go to a church.

But they love the Lord and are saved despite the damage GG inflicted upon them. I can only say Praise the Lord and be forever thankful to Him.

There are more kids out there right now who are very confused about Christ and Christianity in GG. They see the hypocrisy. Kids are not stupid.

I pray that God will bring an end to this so we don't have another GG generation of mistrusting kids, confused,who feel alone because of fear of telling their parents and ultimately turn to the world for comfort in all manner and ways.

Have mercy on us and them O Lord.

[aurora (aurora)]

Amen, Nancy. I have great concern for the kids too...
Hey, before you move I want to say to you that I sure have enjoyed your posts here on FN. I wish you the best as you start a new era in FL. (I've told my husband many times during this past year that I want to move somewhere far away from where we are with all its 25 years of "ministry memories"!)
God bless you!

[chadcass3 (chadcass3)]

I stumbled onto this site yesterday for the first time. After reading a few posts I wanted to respond right away. I was in TBS/GGWO for most of my childhood. As far back as I can remember my parents were involved with that church. In my early childhood we went to one of the Bible Speaks' local branch churches. When I was ready to enter Jr. High my parents moved the whole family to Lenox, Ma, and enrolled my two brothers and I into Stevens Christian School. It was an adjustment for us at the time, but not a hard one since we already knew some of the other kid's from church camp, and previous visits to the church in Lenox. Anyway it was about 1985 I think when we moved out there. I was in the 7th grade and my brothers were in 6th & 2nd. We were there until the whole church closed down and then got dragged to Baltimore. I was in the 10th grade for the very first year of Greater Grace Christian Academy. After that year my parents split up and my brothers and I went with my Dad back to New England. It was quite a shock being thrown right into a public high school for the first time in 4 years. Needless to say, I wasn't real popular for my Jr. & Sr. years. I had alot of adapting to do. I'm still coping and trying to adapt I think. My littlest brother doesn't seem to be affected too much. My other brother has found the bottle to cope. I think I've done nicely. I'm happily married, and have a beautiful little girl. And therein lies my conflict. I look back at the time I was in Lenox as a good time. My family was helped out by so many good people who would literally give you the shirt of their backs. The time I spent learning about the Bible really laid down a foundation for my life. It is Jesus Christ who has helped me through the many, many hard times I've had in my life. With-out faith in Him I'd be so lost. But, for some reason I have not until very recently stepped foot into a church again. Maybe it's because of a lack of trust. Let's face it, when you are watching your church on "60 minutes", it's time to do a little bit of re-evaluating. But, the way I remember the Bible Speaks was just good people. So, that brings me back to my daughter again. She's been asking alot of questions lately about God. She's never been to church or Sunday School. I bought her a children's bible and that brought more questions. She was asking,"if we're Christian, why don't we go to church?" I told her that I need to find a goodone first. I need to find a church that preaches the Bible, and doesn't twist it. I want a paster who can back up what he says with scripture. I want a paster that I can respect. I want to go to a church like the one I was in. I want her to learn what I learned, but I don't want her to end up cut off from the real world. So, what church? How do you pick a good one? Exspecially when you don't really trust them, and haven't been to one in 15 years. I looked up Greater Grace World Outreach on the internet, and looked up their closest church to me. I took my family and went to a service. I turns out to be the same one my parents first got involved with. There were actually some people there that I remembered from my childhood. I had a great time. It was so refreshing to be there. This past Sunday my daughter woke me up early. She was all dressed up telling me to hurry up and get ready for church. She wanted to see what Sunday School was like. So we went again. I was listening to the paster talk about a meeting he had with the other pasters in Baltimore over the week. He was talking about pasters being upset with each other and in-fighting. They all got together to iron things out between them, and wrote a document together. This got me thinking about things and when I got home I did a google search on Greater Grace to see what I've been missing over the last decade and a half. I got to this site and WOW! There seems to be alot of opinions being thrown around and alot of things to think about. The last thing I want to do is get my family involved in a cult. But, I never viewed the church that way. I'm a very confused person right now, and I feel like I'm in a crossroads in my life. Everything has come full circle and now I have to confront these issues one way or another. I was actually on my knees last night, for the first time in a long time looking to God for wisdom. I only want to be a good dad, and a good husband. What I'm doing feels right, but I'm questioning myself constantly.

[dominic1725 (dominic1725)]

I too remember TBS that way, for the most part, pertaining to the members. Many good friends and some fine pastors who taught well. Most of those pastors are not there now. You are a good father to be diligent in this regard. Not just for your daughter, but for yourself and family as a whole.

You're words are a reminder of my thoughts from many years ago: "But, the way I remember the Bible Speaks was just good people." and, "I need to find a church that preaches the Bible, and doesn't twist it. I want a paster who can back up what he says with scripture. I want a paster that I can respect."

I left Lenox in 1984, raised 3 children, and through all the ups and downs, I have been sustained and have prospered by God's grace in my life. Finding a local church in my area has been difficult. However, there ARE good pastors and good churches out there. You need to find out which is right for you, and your family.

If you want a reference or two, or would just like to discuss it, feel free to email me: dominic_6361@yahoo.com

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

ChadC3 - Any chance that you are in the southeastern Mass. area? I know of a place that might just be perfect for you. If you are in that area and want to know, just state it in a post and I'll supply the name of the pastor and how to contact him and you can interview him before you go.

Additionally, I think most people here (Factnet)could attest to the warm, wonderful, kind, friendly people who we know and have known in many TBS/GGWO churches. That is definitely NOT the problem that is discussed here. It is (among other things) the harmful disparity between what is taught -- which is often out of context -- and how the leadership operates, turning scriptures to accomplish various levels of control over members' lives. Some GGWO branches are less like this some are flagrant in deceptions, abuses, etc. But you will find wonderful people in all of the branches - no question about that.

So, I agree with Dom - YOU must find your own way and be comfortable wherever you choose to place your family.

All best in your search - Let us know if there is anything we can do to help you and your family.

Alanna

[huisjen (huisjen)]

Religion is the opiate of the masses.I'm just alergic to some opiates, christianity and morphine being two of them.

Chad, every church that tries to call the bible fact twists it. It is not a coherent document.
Consider the idea that your strength comes from within. That you are the master of your own small destiny, and that all our destinies are actually quite small.

Also consider that there are more social, supportive groups to be involved in than just churches.

If you have your heart set on going to a church, make up a list of a dozen different churches and go to each one, one Sunday at a time. Include the mainstream types, plus Unitarians, a Synagogue, Mosque, Buddhist Temple, and maybe the Mormons or JW's. Ask your daughter what she thinks of each one and to think about how they each differ. Ask her why she thinks they're all different and if there's a right and wrong between them all.

Dan

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Ohhh...I like that advice Dan!

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Dan, that was some of the wisest advice yet on Factnet!

[ariel (ariel)]

Chadc3,

Please make sure you check out the 11 or 12 articles that are linked on the bottom of the
www.carlstevens. website, in case you missed something.
it sounds like you haven't forsaken your God given critical thinking skills which is sometimes referred to as discernment.
It's refreshing to hear that you put your daughters welfare before a religious organization even if you find it to be one you like.
Godspeed to you.

[dominic1725 (dominic1725)]

Sounds great, huisjen. Why stop there? While you're at it, (tongue in cheek), have the young girl visit and critique the hare chrishna's, the arian brotherhood and the temple of doom.

Chad sounds open, not lost. Chadcass3 quotes: "I had a great time. It was so refreshing to be there. This past Sunday my daughter woke me up early.", and another quote ... "I want a paster who can back up what he says with scripture. I want a paster that I can respect. I want to go to a church like the one I was in."

[huisjen (huisjen)]

Oh, and run all this past your wife too.

Dom, I didn't know the temple of doom had many local branches. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

Dan

[dominic1725 (dominic1725)]

LOL - you're a good sport Dan.

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Chad???
Fisherman
SER

GGWO must have been so happy to have your family and you show up all excited to be there when so many of their cult members are fleeing in droves. Carleluia!!

[chadcass3 (chadcass3)]

You all make some very good points. I have spent at least 10 hours over the last 2 nights reading post, after post, after post about TBS/GGWO, and CHS. I am sure I'll be having alot of similar nights in the near future. I spent the 1st 16 years of my life exposed to this ministry, and I've spent the last 16 years trying to find a healthy balance between the two lives. Some people find God later in life after they have screwed it all up on their own. With me it's kind of the opposite. I do not have an agenda here. I have not been to this church or any church for that matter since my family left Baltimore in 1988, the past 2 Sunday's aside. I am sure that alot has changed in the last 15 years. But, I know one thing for sure. I found my Lord and Savior in that church/ministry. That is the Lord Jesus Christ, and not the Lord Carl H. Stevens. I was too young to fully understand the whole inner workings of the church, and what was going on behind closed doors. I never read many of the doctrine booklets, or completely understood what I read in them anyway. But, I did go to an awful lot of church services, and teenage bible studies, and bible classes, etc. , and never got the feeling that anyone was worshipping anyone but Christ. God, to me, deffinately had a hand in that ministry. Alot of good was done. I saw it almost every day. I know that people are not perfect. I know that Carl Stevens is not perfect. I never expected him to be. He is just a man, who answered a calling and brought alot of souls to Christ by his messege. That's the way I see it anyway. I'm sure alot has changed since my days there. It's been 15 years, the whole world has changed. But, I learned everything I know about Christianity at that church, and I want my daughter to have the same beliefs that I have. That's why I've been drawn back. I want her to have the faith in Jesus that I have. I want her to have that same foundation. But, how can that happen when I don't have the ability to explain to her why I believe what I believe, and I don't take her to a church to learn? I guess I could let her grow up and try to figure everything out on her own. But, to me, that's not being a good father. So I started taking my family to the one I used to go to with my family before the move to Lenox. I guess with the same reasoning that any Catholic parent would take their child to a Catholic mass, or a jewish parent would take their child to temple. I want her to believe what I believe. I know there are other churches. But, if I was indeed in a cult for all those years and didn't know it, than how would I know if I was in another one? I found it logical to take her to the place that I first heard the Truth, and felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. I haven't made up my mind if I'll go back this Sunday or not. Alot of things I've read on this site has forced me to step back for a minute, and try to make sure I'm doing the best thing for my little girl. It took alot of soul-searching for me to even go back in the first place, and now I have to dig down even deeper and re-examine that decision. I'm just afraid that if I start digging down too far I'll fracture my own foundation of beliefs. I know that TBS showed me the way to Christ. If they are a cult, like so many of you say. Then how do I know what to believe? How do I know what a healthy church is, if I think that TBS was "healthy"? I'm not expecting answers from anyone. My answers are only going to come through alot of thinking, and prayer. I only write these words here because it's the first time in a long time that I've been able to express these feelings to anyone. It feels good to be able to share a little bit with some people who might be able to relate.

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Chad - I don't know where you should go to church, not that I personally believe that is a requisite of finding truth or learning about God, etc. However, I do know it is good and spiritual to dig down, as you said, and keep going to re-examine our foundation of beliefs. It is incredibly healthy and in my experience it has helped me broaden my scope regarding God and his Universe and my faith has never been stronger...although I'm not "churchy." Our minds were given to us to think and reason, it is logical to assume that if we do that God won't leave us...our faith won't crumble. When I left TBS the pieces of what I had believed were scattered around me like bits of a broken window and the process of putting my "foundation of beliefs" back together has been (IS) rewarding, satisfying and enriching beyond what I could ever begin to explain here.

As far as the postings here go, most people here agree that there are positive things about TBS/GGWO, however there are other things that are just as real. I "saw" the reality of many of those negative, destructive, unGodly things quite a while before I left. I figured that no place is perfect and I had wonderful friends there...but there came a time when it became so evident that those negative issues were so pervasive and detrimental to so many that I had to leave.

Anyway, you sound like a sincere man, all best in finding your path.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Chad - excellent post. I never expected CHS to be perfect either, merely honest. Unfortunately I, and many others found he lied about person after person after person, etc., and etc.

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Right Ralph. The straw that broke the camel's back for us was catching him in a 3-way set of lies with two other very close friends who were also TBS pastors. When confronted with what he'd said about the 3 men -- you know, different accusations to each about the others (the three different lies to the three different men involved) guess what -- he lied again trying to cover his backside. So, on top of a long, long list of indescretions, lies, misrepresentations, scripture twisting, etc. etc. we'd had enough. Of course we were cut off and the typical lies were circulated about us -- water long passed under the bridge now...and I'm so thankful for the renewed friendships that happened when some of those who cut us off left.

[john_krainis (john_krainis)]

Chad,

About a year ago I visited a church, not knowing that it was a Greater Grace branch ministry (it dawned on me during the service). It had been 24 years, and I had hardly thought about the ministry during that time. Afterwards, like you, I was interested to find out what had become of them, and discovered FACTNet, which was just getting going at the time.

FACTNet has caused me to think about the influence that TBS had on me. Like you, it was the ministry that introduced me to Jesus Christ, and I'm indebted for that, and He has never left. But there is a reason that 60 Minutes ran their piece, and that cult-watching organizations and ex-members view it as a cult, or as a Christian church with cultic tendencies.

You'll have to draw your own conclusions about everything (and it sounds like you've started doing the research), but here's my suggestion:

Do not attend Greater Grace. As Ralph and Alanna mentioned, the history of improper behavior is too well documented to ignore. There are churches that believe in Jesus and don't have all the negatives of GG. Who we allow to teach us (and our kids) is so important. How much would islamic hatred die down if the imams preached love and tolerance? There is no perfect church or pastor, but there are healthy ones.

There are good books and web resources on finding a healthy church. A readable book is "Stop Dating the Church - Fall in Love With the Family of God" by Joshua Harris http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1590523652/ref=cm_bg_f_1/002-8323672-8624016?v=glance&s=books

A helpful web article is: http://wellspringretreat.org/choosing_church.html

If you are in Maine, feel free to get in touch - it's krainis@suscom-maine.net

God bless.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Dear Chad,

You are a "child of the ministry," you were drawn in because of your parents decision, not yours. I think it might be helpful to you to consider the toll the decision to join the TBS/GGWO had on your family. You said your parents moved you to Lenox and then to Baltimore and then split up. Do you know their thoughts on the ministry? GGWO was not a normal Christian church to begin with. Normal Christian churches do not expect families to follow a man from state to state. Normal Christian churches do not teach to be in the geographical will of God whole families must leave good jobs and their homes and their extended family. This is what GGWO teaches. I hope you will think about how GG effected your own parents lives; consider asking them. I also think it might be wise to think of those you respected during your teen years; leaders and teachers. Where are they now? If you were in GGCA in Baltimore than you remember the principal, Mr. Kirby? James is a good friend of mine. He left GGWO for the same reasons I have and many others. Dr. Sutorius was the bible college president back then. He left the ministry for the same reasons. Pastor Lutz, gone. Paul Stevens, CHS's own son is gone also. Hundreds and hundreds of people of have left this church because it harmed their families.

I would also suggest you do a search on abusive churches. Warning signs to look for. I wish I had the wisdom and support back when I chose to got to Lenox. I would have never joined if I knew what a healthy church was back then. I would have never raised my children in this kind of church. I have grown children and grandchildren now. My daughter's decision to leave GGWO was made to protect her children. I know many young parents who left this past year for that very reason; they did not want to raise their children in such an unhealthy church.

This is your decision to make. I hope you make an informed decision, use your critical thinking skills. Christ will lead you but He also expects us to equip ourselves in decision making.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Great posts Alanna, Jeannie, and John.

You know, please do not beat up on me anyone, to some degree we must "pity" the "blind" leaders who are still singing praises to CHS. Because they do not realize that literally single one of them have been lied about.

Perhaps one of the best prayers we could pray is that they hear the lies that have been (perhaps still are being) told about them.

I know that there is much hurt on here, but I also believe that many of us still love those dear folks, even if they cannot or will not love us in return. And, when that happens, who is truly revealing their love for the Father?


"If anyone says, I love God, yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For the person who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." 1Jo 4:20 (Holman)

Blesings,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[lojemc (lojemc)]

Dan so your a jack of all trades ,as they say.

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Chad:

It is good to see you are sincere poster. Sorry for my remarks. I thought you were a poser troll. The above folks gave you much good advice. The bottom line is your child deserves better than GGWO.

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Chad:

One thing I forgot. Read the documents on http://www.carlstevens.org

[chadcass3 (chadcass3)]

Hi guys me again. I've been doing alot of research the last few days. At this point I'm pretty burnt out, trying to comprehend all the accusations about GGWO/TBS. I read all the info on www.carlstevens .org. There is alot of stuff in there that is really hard to defend, and hard to overlook. I've also took your advice and questioned my parents regarding some of the allegations on the website. I have never before now, questioned them on their mindset of why they followed the church all the way to Baltimore. My dad is really upset about me questioning the decisions that he made back then, of getting us all involved in the church. He points out some of the same things that I did about how many great people and pastors he met when involved in the ministry. He seemed to feel like I was attacking him. But, even he admits that some of the things he heard about CHS were a little questionable. Like CHS claims that he was baptised by "liquid waves of love", and that all his messeges were "anointed by God". But, my dad says that he knew the man, CHS, and he was a decent man and an excellent pastor/teacher with a genuine caring for the "lost". My dad also points to other men of God who deffinately helped him through some of the more difficult times in his life. He mentioned Pastor Butch Veader, and Paster John Whalen as 2 incredible men of God who had lasting influences in his own life, and walk with God. It was good to talk with my dad about all of this although the whole thing deffinately made him feel uncomfortable. Like I was telling him he was a bad father for getting us all messed up in a "cult". I told my dad that I loved him , and was glad to have been involved in TBS because they showed me the way to the Lord and helped make me the Christian man that I am. He says it was His Holy Spirit that called him to Lenox, and then to Baltimore, for the sake of his marriage. He was only trying to do the best thing for his family. I told him that, that was exactly what I'm trying to do now. It would be silly of me to just flat out ignore the effects that TBS has had on some people lives. It's hard to ignore some of their "cult-like" tendencies, and for these reasons cannot rationalize taking my family back to this church. He seemed to respect my desicion, and was glad that I was not rejecting Christ, just the churh.

Then it was on to my mother. I planned on talking to her the next day face to face. But when I got hme my phone rang and it was her. My dad had called her and filled her in on some of the issues that I had. My mom is a tough nut to crack. She actually is still in touch with some of the pastors in the ministry. She had a come back for everything I had to say. She is convinced that the church is 100% "right on", with evrything that they preach. She too respects my desicion, but told me,"good luck" trying to find a better church. I talked to my mom for 4 hours, until the batteries in my portable phone died. She was outraged by some of the facts that I presented to her. She actually agreed with the church's stand on "delagated authority", and tried to defend it. She actually has a copy of Watchman Nee's, "Spiritual Authority", that she bought over 20 years ago. She also has an extensive collection of some of Pastor Stevens old tapes and doctrine booklets. She is searching for her copy of the tape,"What it Means to be Baptised unto a Man", as we speak. My mom had some real interesting opinions. She told me that the reason people didn't like Pastor some times was because they "didn't like hearing the truth." I asked my mom why we moved from place to place with TBS, and she said because there were not any other "good churches." She went into more detail than my father did about how they originally got involved in the ministry. She said that when I was just a baby they were going to a local baptist church. There was a lady at that church that convinced my parents to go and see a service by this incredible preacher CHS. This lady (Janice Allen), witnessed to them. They came to Christ, and were introduced to TBS. They met CHS, and loved to hear him preach. After a while my mom says that they were getting bored with their baptist church and went to TBS full time. Years, went by, during this time my parents were having a hard time with their marriage. The Paster at TBS branch (Pastor Saprano) suggested to them that they try Lenox to see if they liked it. We had nothing to lose. We were evicted from our house and my dad had no job. So we moved to Lenox, for the sake of my parents marriage and were inrolled in SCS. We lived at a campground at October Mountain for a few months while my parents tried to find an apartment to rent. We eventually found a place to live in Pittsfield and lived there for 3 years, before the move to Baltimore. Again, my mother said we had nothing to lose and a pastor had found my dad a job in Baltimore so off we went. She emphasised the point that no one forced them into these desicions. They were made of their own free will, because they thought it was the right thing to do. She says she wasn't following a man, she was following her heart. No one , "put a gun to her head.", and TBS was deffinately NOT a cult. I asked her if it seemed funny to her that 100's of people did the same thing as she did, and uprooted their families to move to Baltimore, even after the church was seemingly exposed in court. She didn't really have a good answer to this , replying that it was just everyone's individual desicions. So talking to my mom was the equivilent to banging my head against the wall. She offered me phone #'s of pastors who taught me when I was in Lenox and Baltimore, like Pastor Robinson, and Pastor Love. I told her that , that was alright, I'd pass on that one, but I did tell her that I'd be interested in reading some of her Watchman Nee books, and listening to some of her old tapes of CHS. She told me "good luck" in trying to find a good church, but told me after I attend a few of them , that she knows I'll end up back at Greater Grace. We'll see.

Anyway, in response to Jeannie, I do remember Mr. Kirby. He was my science teacher in the 9th grade, and my principal in Baltimore. His son Ben, was in my littlest brothers class. I would definitley be interested in hearing his reasons for leaving the church, because he was a man that I respected very much. Paster Lutz is a teacher who I vaguely remember too. By any chance does anyone know what happened to Mr. Holehouse? He was another one of the teachers that I had a very deep respect for.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Chadcass3,

Your Mother is right, no one put a gun to anyone's head. However, CHS DID "assign" people to "massage" certain people with money and make them feel "special" to draw them in. But he taught not to prefer people. RIGHT!!!! Teach it, but don't live it.

He taught not to gossip or malign, however,

He told a group of us that a certain friend of mine had left his wife and was into drugs and whoring. This was only a few days after I had a report from their daughter's best friend on how great they were doing. When I told him privately (should have done it publically) that he needed to check his sources because it was not true, he gave me the strangest look. I could not understand the look at the time, but coupled with other things I would now say it meant, "So, cares if it is true or not?"

He told many times how another friend of mine supposedly exposed his wife's adultry from the pulpit and they subsequently divorced? Only thing is, THEY NEVER HAD A PROBLEM!

BTW any GGWO pastors who are reading this, even though every time I asked about seeing this friend CHS preached against me the next service , HE WAS WRONG!! He lied, slandered, maligned! Why, so no one would get the true story!!!!

Anyway Chadcass3, you ARE doing the righht thing. People get the most defensive about what they "believe" when they are not absolutely sure they believe it. Understand that for your parents to admit that CHS/TBS/GGWO was wrong they must admit that they bought into it, and that is uncomfortable at first. But with your love, prayers, and persistance, they will see the truth. And, well, we know what the truth does, don't we?

God bless you in your efforts,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[chadcass3 (chadcass3)]

I response to herroyalhighness, "ChadC3 - Any chance that you are in the southeastern Mass. area? I know of a place that might just be perfect for you. If you are in that area and want to know, just state it in a post and I'll supply the name of the pastor and how to contact him and you can interview him before you go."... I think I would be interested in receiving some more information about this please.

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Chad, many of us are now in Calvary Chapel. I have found it very much like GGWO, except with none of the weird doctrine. They are all over the place. I went to about 10 churches after we left GGWO looking for one I was confortible in. They were all great churches, they all preached the gospel, I would have grown in all of them. When I found CC I knew for me, it was home. And they do NOT mark. They do not gossip and consider it healthy and not sin. And they are all over the country and world. If you look on the internet, chances are there is one close to you.

Good luck young man. It sounds like you will do just fine!!!

[jeannie (jeannie)]

I can attest to CC. In Baltimore, Rick and Tara Plantholt are the salt of the earth. Godly, real and Rick's messages always minister God's nature.

After receiving so little of Christ from the pulpit in GG, it is overwhelming to receive from someone who exalts Him and not himself.

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Chad - in Douglas, MA - Pastor Ed Young at the First Congregational Church. If it tells you anything, Ed was not ordained as a Congregationalist yet they hired him anyway. It is an open, accepting place full of caring Christians and you will find Ed to be a careful listener who does display unconditional love. Please look him up and tell him that the Queen from Yarmouth Maine recommended him.

[aurora (aurora)]

Jeannie-
Are you going to become a member at CC? Do they have membership?
I'm learning that most churches do have membership and I would be interested to discuss the topic here if folks have thoughts/experiences regarding church membership.

Of course, gg/tbs never had it (which is a whole other subject). I find myself skiddish and skeptical and I don't want to stay in that disfunction if is just that I always heard preached that "we don't have membership" like it was bad to have it, ya know?

[herkeybird (herkeybird)]

The UCC (United Church of Christ), an affiliation of several churches including the Congregational Church, does indeed have membership. But they don't go crazy about it. For instance, before I was an official member of my Congregational UCC church, I was on the mailing list for months and was welcome at all church functions. But once I became a member, I had the additional privileges of serving communion and voting in congregational meetings. The motto is "open doors, open arms, open minds," and we do our best to live up to it.

It was mentioned in the Demeo thread that the church in France functioned like a club, and the minister could not hold any of the administrative offices like treasurer, etc. Congregational churches work like that, with a specific constitution. Also, the pastor is an employee of the congregation and can be fired - - I'm sure you understand why that would be attractive after living the TBS experience. <g>

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Dear Aurora,

I completely understand about being skittish. We have come out of a church which abuses. I think being skittish is part of our radar detectors at work. I go to CC because my radar detector does not go off. I don't feel compelled to explain my absence if I miss and I am not asked where I have been. I sense genuine love from Rick and Tara. And Rick preaches the Christ I know when I am alone with Him. I think we all need to give ourselves grace and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us. Yogi shared that he is attending a Catholic church, I think he is being led by God and I applaud him. I have friends who do not attend anywhere and yet are spiritually intuned to the max. I celebrate their walk of faith. I am enclosing an article from the Wellspring Retreat. We all have been eaten by a wolf in sheep's clothing. The wolf may have only taken a nibble out of one individual and that person can jump right into another church. Or maybe the wolf devoured the limbs off another individual and it will take them a long, long time to heal and hobble into another church building. I am thankful for this forum because we can encourage each other that no matter how or how long it takes to heal the bites of the wolf, it is going to be ok.....



What is a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing?

by Stephen Martin


A wolf in sheep's clothing" can be a simple and concise definition of a cult (or an abusive church or relationship). Everything that describes a wolf in sheep's clothing is what a cult is and does.

What would such a creature look like? Many people believe (or want to believe) that it would look like wolf in sheep's clothing, as though its true identity is apparent. But if a wolf could truly disguise itself and do a good job of it, it would look exactly like a sheep. People would not say, "Look at that wolf in sheep's clothing," but rather, "Look at that sheep." It would look like a sheep to those with little education as well as to those with much education. It would look like a sheep to Protestants,Catholics, Jews, or members of other religions, as well as to those of no religious affiliation. It would look like a sheep to one who is committed to his faith, or to one who is only nominal in his commitment.

A wolf in sheep's clothing deceives in order to lure, then devours the victim to satisfy its own appetite. The prey is torn, severely injured, and emotionally traumatized. If he manages to survive, he will now have a lack of trust for anything that looks like a sheep.

Responses and "remedies" that an observer might typically give only pour salt into the wounds of the victim: "You must have been stupid or crazy to get near that wolf." "You must have had some prior psychological problem to get involved with a wolf." "You must not have been a good moral and spiritual person to get near that thing." "You just need to return to the flock and you'll be fine." Yet these are exactly the kinds of responses that many people give in regard to those who have been involved in a cult or abusive church, because few who have not personally experienced life in a cult really understand what it's like.

By the time a cult makes news because of some tragedy, the wolf has had its disguise removed, and people conclude things like, "Those people had to be pretty crazy or immoral to come near that group and get involved." (It is true that a few people do deliberately choose an evil way when they join an evil group, depending on the nature of the group. But members of cults and abusive churches are generally not people who have deliberately chosen an evil way.)

In reality, of course, a wolf cannot disguise itself as a sheep, but it is quite easy for harmful groups to disguise themselves as good. In fact, they often do a better job of appealing to new prospects than most mainline churches do. They do a better job of being more friendly, showing more care and love, and offering to meet needs. All of this is designed simply to draw recruits into their group. But the true agenda of the group is hidden. It is a "bait and switch" tactic of betrayal orchestrated by a very appealing and persuasive leader and group. It is not that people who join are stupid or gullible, but that the leader and the members who have been trained by the leader are so persuasive and appealing.

"A wolf in sheep's clothing" is a simple way to illustrate a problem that is actually quite complex. In a cult, the "wolf" acts in a way you would not expect. It does not devour instantly, but slowly, biting occasionally and then more frequently. Part of the time it shows itself as a sheep and part of the time as a wolf in order to keep the victims confused. There is just enough charm in the "sheep" side to keep the victims awestruck, believing, and therefore hooked.

Eventually, victims are torn between trust and distrust. If distrust wins out so that the victims escape,the lack of trust may carry over to other "flocks," because the victims have experienced a form of trauma, and may feel bewildered in many ways about this encounter. These are the people that Wellspring seeks to heal and restore. (Wellspring Retreat and Recovery)

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Thanks for posting that Jeannie.

[calv (calv)]

bump

[calv (calv)]

I wonder about voices i cant hear?

[plaid (plaid)]

Herkeybird, is that the church that welcomed Sponge Bob after he was outed by Jerry Falwell?

I saw the best newsletter, showed Sponge Bob being shown around the church, singing in the choir, talking with the pastor. I printed it out but can't find it anywhere, I'm bummed.

[herkeybird (herkeybird)]

It is! I just found the news item: http://www.ucc.org/news/r012505.htm. And the website for the new campaign is stillspeaking.com; you might see some of the ads there.

How's things with you and yours? I haven't seen you post in a while.

(Message edited by herkeybird on April 04, 2005)

[plaid (plaid)]

Everything is going well...it's been a bit nuts adjusting to my husband being home, then everyone kept getting sick, I swear they passed it all around about five times. Now we are gearing up for a big move - lots of the very things that make me more stressed!

I am going to see if i can find your email, I tend to lose things easily.

[herkeybird (herkeybird)]

herkeybird@hotmail.com still works. Glad to hear everyone is home and safe (if not quite sound).

[estelles (estelles)]

I may be coming in late but this is the perfect place for my first post.

My family came into TBS when I was 3. I've been in branch ministries, home base, Lenox and Baltimore. My father is an affiliate pastor. I was a teen in GGWO. I sat under messages surrounded in services by the sea of nodding heads. I was emotionally damaged by the tactics of the youth "ministry". I knew nothing else. }}

I left as soon as I became independent as a young adult. I have many of the same experiences as indicated in some of your earlier posts. I probably know some of you. I've always looked back thinking of those I grew up with... wondering... are their minds free? Do they know their true position in Christ? I've been out of GGWO now for over a decade.

This is a great forum. I gotta go explore now. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Welcome Estelles. Not too many finding the lower threads now, they have changed the format on us drastically, and at what is a very crtitical time. But welcome! Is you Dad still in??

I was a pastor in TBS for two years, left, then foolishly came back into GGWO and was a apstor for another ten years. Finally left that three years ago. You are right about wondering about the thought process, when we wer ein we were not operatring in our God given critical thinking. But, thank God for people finally thinking no matter how long it takes, just that they do.

Blessings,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Thought this might be helpful to some who might be lurking!

[preston (preston)]

Plaid,

We have loved ones who know eachother.

Aside from the military we have much in common. This thread interests me greatly but forgive me I can't post at length right now! I'm on my way out on a date and believe me, with little ones that's a rarity right now.

I grew up in TBS/GGWO, born into it, you might say. Some of my personal story is in 'A Child's View' thread.

You sound like a great mom.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Plaid and Preston, You both sound like great moms! You both are beautiful examples of forging your own journey of out of wounds and cultism. You both make me proud to be a woman!

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Jeannie -- how ironic -- you make me proud to be a woman!

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Me too.