Letter to Elders from Affiliates

[mawaga (mawaga)]

April 29, 2005


To the Board of Elders of GGWO,


This letter should not come as a surprise, since the joint letter that Pastor Morin and I sent to you has been in your possession now for almost two weeks and you have not contacted us. We are frankly shocked that there has been no formal response from you to such a serious letter.

That, is the sad testimony of the current attitude being expressed.

This will be the last time we communicate to you officially as a Greater Grace affiliated church.

Our elders have agreed to break fellowship with you as a church, based upon your lack of response to the personal, practical and biblical concerns we expressed in our letter of April 15th.

Our offer to help you as brothers in Christ still stands. If you decide to address the concerns that have been expressed in our letters and publicly repent for those actions we will assist you in any way possible.


In Christ,


Pastor Gerald Graziano
Seneca Falls, NY






Cc: Board of Elders GGCF Rome, NY

[itstimetomoveon (itstimetomoveon)]

Just so you understand the letters Gerald Graziano and others posted about the affiliated churchs are reality. Those Elders in Baltimore have run out of time. Countless times communication was nonexistant.
It's time to move on.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Amen! It's Time To Move On

The winds of God's grace are blowing AWAY from Baltimore. Many are raising their sails and moving with His Spirit. Thank you affiliate pastors who are taking a bold and public stand. May God richly bless you and your congregations as you move away from twisted teachings. I hope as you go forward, you also reach back to the many who have been discarded, in the same process you are now experiencing yourselves. The marked and slandered over these many decades are waiting in a spirit of reconciliation. As difficult as these times are for all, there is something very moving as God's redemptive story plays out before us...

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

raise your sails and sail away, but when you land at the next harbor, DO check all of your BAGGAGE in at the dock... you do NOT want to bring your BAGGAGE... one big bag is labled "FEAR". leave it behind... no need to live in fear.. suprisingly, we do not suffer from mumps, measles or tongue cancer out here. don't fear the wrath of god.. his gentle winds have just blown you away from bondage..... selah.

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

WWWWWWHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWW..... can you feel it-ah.....

[isabella (isabella)]

Amen Jeannie and Bells!

"Leave their baggage behind"...

"As they move away from twisted teachings"..

YES!

After they explain how they taught the many why they are leaving...

After they admit what they did to the people, when they were in agreement with the sick teachings of CHS...

AND,

after they have repented in full, including naming names of the people they have maligned and, in some cases, destroyed.

I'm all for the disaffiliation, but not without the repentance that would make it sincere.

Without that, they are the same...

THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE!

I'm waiting for a response on here.

Post it here, where we are and where many people still in the church/cult are reading.

I'm going to stay here and wait.

Isabella

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

(crickets chirping).... issy... they're not going to respond... fold up the lawn chair.... wrap up your blanket and go back inside... sad... but true. xoxoxo.

[lmao (lmao)]

Pastor Morin,

You wrote: " ... I could not be again blamed for this action by those in Baltimore, who master in the art of public slandering, and un-biblical hurtful marking."

To me this does not sound like revealing God’s character. What it sounds like is public slandering, and un-biblical hurtful marking.

I am not questioning your actions, but by your words, you have closed the door on the way out. While some here applaud that idea, I think it only serves to postpone the healing process as it justifies those who would write you off as negative and evil speaking. It doesn't matter who is right(marriage counseling 101).

[anova (anova)]

" ... I could not be again blamed for this action by those in Baltimore, who master in the art of public slandering, and un-biblical hurtful marking."

I was very struck by this quote when I read P. Morin's thread. I could understand totally his actions and his words.

He is trying to spare himself further false accusation and hurt. He is someone who is being treated with utter heartlessness by people he has supported and worked with for 30 years. He is coming to know the deep pain of betrayal by those who cruelly write him off so they can maintain their "reputation" and not have to own their own sins.


Anovus

[j_graz (j_graz)]

Imao,
Pastor Morin is not closing any 'door' here. He is opening one. The truth always opens doors for people.
He is stating a fact and noting that these things have been happening for years.

In his resignation letter the door is still open...

"Come April 30th, the response deadline to our April 18, 2005 letter to Pastor Stevens and the GGWO elders in Baltimore, should you not receive a healthy response of action, it will be your decisions as the remaining board of Elders to choose the direction you prayerfully want to lead this church regarding its affiliation and name. "

In the letter referenced as April 15th, the door was still opened....

"If you choose to respond before April 30th, then we will be willing to help work these things through, along with many of the affiliates..."


There has been nothing but gracious offers from the affiliates to help make things right.

We even offered to cosign letters of repentence for our part in things...if that's not leaving the door opened, I have no idea what is.

Pastor G

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Right on Pr. G

[yogi (yogi)]

Pr. G,

TODAY is April 30th, any word?

yogi

[j_graz (j_graz)]

No word...see my above letter....
No call, no formal response....nothing.

Deafening silence - they have spoken louder and clearer than they will ever imagine.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Pastor Morin

I am doubtful you remember me or my husband Scott Fernalld. We knew you in Lenox. We were students in the years just prior to the Dovydenas scandal. You were advisor to the team planning to be missionaries in Turkey and my husband was a part of that group.

We both wish to say how amazed, thankful and proud we are of the move away from affiliation with GGWO you have made. Your biblical conduct, your voice for truth, and your example of spiritual courage is a beacon to all.

We are proud to have known you, Pastor, and consider your decision Holy Spirit inspired and you a true man of God in this situation.

Thank you. You may not know it, but your actions have renewed the faith of many.

Roberta Fernalld

[yogi (yogi)]

Thanks for the update Pastor G and God bless you for having the courage to take a stand for Jesus Christ's standard and not Carl Stevens.

yogi

[itstimetomoveon (itstimetomoveon)]

Now that today being the first day of May we can take comfort in April's showers bring May's flowers. It's an old saying but true. A new reawakening for all those involved.
Many troublesome issues have been addressed and brought to the table by the Affiliated Church's. Mark Morin and Gerald Graziano, Alexey Klimenko and those in foreign countries have stepped up to the plate here to express what is happening with their receptive church. They have been given the voice for the majority of the affiliates here on this forum. For all that are truly concerned so you are made aware of the current standing that has taken place.

It's time to move on

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

this is moving on, quite nicely I might add http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[quot_licet (quot_licet)]

I just want to let everybody know that GGWO in Russia is over. Today I have been at the Easter service in Moscow church and spoke to one of the pastors. He said Russian churches chose to follow the Bible rather than to be led by personal relationships and compromise on Biblical truth. The letter of disaffiliation will be read to congregations over the next weekend, as now is the Easter celebratation in Russia. P. Klimenko message was about the state of disciples after the crucifiction and how Jesus found them ... just as they were. There were cuts from 'the Pasion' shown, and Jesus was the only focus of the whole service. Not even a hint of GG as I know it, no CHS jargon was used even once. Russian churches have a long way to go without GG stigma attached to them, but I am glad the cults in my country have just lost one in their number.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

He has Risen.
Yes, He has Risen indeed!

Amen, Qut_Licet... As a former missionary representing the cult in Moscow and now an ex-member, my heart is gladdened today to hear Christ is center again.

Wonderful Easter news.. He indeed, has risen!

[yogi (yogi)]

Bravo quot_licet, bravo!

yogi

[j_graz (j_graz)]

An excellent letter from Pastor Rob Prokop (posted with his permission as well)

I continue to post these because the elders are dead quiet and are just not responding to any of these. We are now telling it to the church.
(Mat 18:17...if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church)



Vienna, April 29, 2005


To Pastor Tom Schaller, the Elders in Baltimore, the Greater Grace affiliates and all members of GGWO,

Mary and I have been in this ministry for nearly 28 years and have served in it as overseas missionaries for over twenty. We have been very blessed by many things, among them: the emphasis on grace, the cross, Body life, discipleship, evangelism and missions. Therefore, it is with deep sadness but also deep conviction that I write this letter for all to read. The Lord is my witness. It is not necessary to re-hash the details regarding the events that have taken place in Baltimore over the last year and a half, nor the happenings that have taken place over the past few months specifically in regard to the Sandy Cove process and recent elections in Baltimore. I have read all of the recent letters in response to these events by Pastors Powell, Morin, Graziano, White, Wood, Walker, Wilkosz, Simmons and Hogarth and stand in full agreement with them. I was also one of the 10 writers of the letter sent from Florida addressed to Pastor Stevens and the elders in Baltimore, which was endorsed by 84 GGWO pastors.

I wish to inform you that the 14 men on our leadership team here in Vienna have unanimously agreed that it is in the best interest of our church to pursue other options regarding our future. We also have the overwhelming support of our general assembly.

I have compiled seven reasons (in regards to Baltimore) why we are following this present course of action:

1. A serious lack of accountability: This lack of accountability extends to the governing boards of both GGWO & MBC&S, also to the local church body in Baltimore, as well as to the affiliate ministries. For example, the vote for the pastorate, in the case of Pastor Stenger, was rendered null and void by the influence of certain individuals; thus the bonafide vote of the Board of Elders was overturned. In addition, the lack of accountability to the local body and the affiliates was evidenced by an absence of transparency and honest communications regarding the ongoing state of affairs. Decisions were made both ethically and financially without regard for how these decisions would eventually affect not only the local church in Baltimore, but also the ministry worldwide.

2. A serious lack of biblical ethics: I have personally witnessed the deliberate and disgraceful campaigning for position and jockeying for power within GGWO. I have also experienced the undermining of new and effective methods for church growth and consequently have been discredited for differing with the status quo. I am well aware of the unethical process that went on which led to the resignation of Pastor Stenger as the senior pastor of Baltimore and the electing of Pastor Schaller. I am also well aware that the unanimous decision of the elders to elect Pastor Schaller as the senior pastor was in simple compliance with the majority of the church (still attending) but not necessarily in compliance with the personal convictions of the elders.

3. A serious lack of proper hermeneutics: There has been constant insistence on following the “anointed man of God” in light of Old Testament stories and types (prophets, priests and kings) rather than following Jesus Christ in accordance to the New Testament. I dare say that the kind of discipleship that is being promoted by certain leaders in Baltimore is one of co-dependence on them rather than promoting dependence on Christ.

4. A serious lack of “freedom”: There has been considerable pressure, especially recently, to stay within the confines of the “way things have always been done” (i.e. the old landmarks). Statements have consistently been made from the pulpit and at raps in an attempt to intimidate, discredit and discourage those who attempt to serve God in the way He is personally leading them.

5. A serious lack of having a “voice”: This has been witnessed in the entire Sandy Cove process. From the first conception of such a meeting (where affiliates could have a “voice” in their future) there were numerous attempts to veto Sandy Cove I. There was also quiet campaigning against it from those opposed to it, where it was labeled as “conspiratorial”, “rebellious” and “evil”. Sandy Cove was anything but that; I was there and was part of the process that brought it about. There have been numerous attempts after Sandy Cove to discredit its resolutions and the future process leading to Sandy Cove II, which was scheduled for June 2005. Everyone present signed the covenant. However, certain individuals who signed the covenant, now openly speak against it; their negativity goes unchallenged by leaders in Baltimore—a clear violation of the document they signed.

6. A serious lack of concern: One of the saddest things I have witnessed was the labeling of former staff members (who were pushed out) as “dead wood”. There is a serious lack of godly concern for their lives, as well as the lives of hundreds of people around world who have been grieved, hurt and devastated through this ordeal. There is seemingly no concern that the testimony of Jesus Christ has been utterly disgraced in our ministry, evidenced by the indifference of the present leadership to address and resolve the issues at hand.

7. A serious lack of repentance: In light of the above mentioned (i.e. the serious lack of accountability, ethics, proper hermeneutics, freedom, voice and concern), there has been no repentance in regard to these issues. With the tremendous turmoil that has occurred in Baltimore and its devastating effects worldwide, it amazes me that there is no one in leadership who steps up and assumes responsibility, proving the fact that there is indeed, no accountability. Is there anyone willing to say, “I was wrong; I repent—what can I do to make things right?” This includes the campaigning and jockeying for power, the undermining of other men and their ministries, the discarding of faithful staff members and as stated, the indifference of the present leadership to address and resolve the problems at hand.

Due to these concerns, we will no longer be promoting, supporting or attending any Greater Grace functions unless these issues are seriously noted and completely resolved. In the meantime, we are considering future alternatives for our local church here in Vienna.



Respectfully yours,


Pastor Rob Prokop

[search4truth (search4truth)]

Hello,

I'm new to this and was cautioned by so many not to come here at all. Through much prayer and concern, I decided to come. I am only seeking truth and closure to many questions and it's been so hard.

Thank you for sharing these letter from such great men of God whom I respect and honor very much. Does anyone have a list of e-mail addresses of those churches which have disaffiliated? I am trying to establish contact with some whom I have lost contact with now.

Please know that any info you can give is much appreciated.

God bless!
Search4truth

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Search4trhuth

Try the link below which will lead to other informative links:
http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=61478#POST61478
or
http://www.carlstevens.org

[search4truth (search4truth)]

louise_connolly,

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated!

Have a great rest of the day.
Search4truth

(Message edited by Search4truth on May 01, 2005)

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

I truly hope it helps and wish you the same.

[out_for_good (out_for_good)]

Has anyone seen Wayne Hogarth's disaffilation letter?

[out_for_good (out_for_good)]

Has anyone seen Wayne Hogarth's disaffilation letter?

[search4truth (search4truth)]

out_for_good,

I was just wondering the same thing. I just got an e-mail from a friend of mine who attends church in Westfield and she confirmed the dis-affilation and said most everyone was in agreement with Pastor's decision there. Wish I could see his letter...

God bless,
search4truth

[out_for_good (out_for_good)]

I've talked to a few people from Westfield. They knew I left GG 10 years ago yet had nothing to say about their disaffiliation. They made it sound more like they were cutting their losses from the "negative publicity" than there was any solid repentance or doctrinal change. We'll see, I guess.

[search4truth (search4truth)]

out_for_good,

Were you ever a part of the church in Springfield/Westfield? No one told me anything there until I asked then they said yes it was true but offered no explanation as to why. Maybe they're just trying to protect me in some strange way. Who knows... I know the web site they have now doesn't mention GGWO in any way, shape or form. We shall see I guess...

God bless,
search4truth

[yogi (yogi)]

Pastor Rob is another example of courage and valor in the face of significant change!
God bless you as you choose to follow Jesus and NOT popular opinion!

yogi

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

THANK YOU j graz for posting pastor rob prokops letter...

[out_for_good (out_for_good)]

search4truth-

Yes, I was part of the Springfield church for many years. We broke away from Baltimore and Greater Grace started another church in Westfield. The reforms of Sandy Cove are practically a carbon copy of reasons of why we disaffiliated many years ago.
Of course everyone who disaffilited then was evil and apostate. I'll be pretty surprised if the Westfield church has had a real change in spirit or doctrine. They still treat ex-members just the same. I would love to be wrong here, but when I see them repent to the Glorious Gospel Church people then I'll know it's really of the Lord.

[search4truth (search4truth)]

gone_for_good,

I used to attend Glorious Gospel Church on State Street for some years when P. Stratus was there. I eventually moved out of the area and avoided all the turmoil precious folks went through back then. Small world...

God bless!
search4truth

[j_graz (j_graz)]

In the interest of fairness....here is a letter from P Corbiere. He was the pastor that the recent florida letter references.


To: GGWO PASTORS

COPY OF LETTER TO PASTOR SCHALLER




May 1, 2005

Dear Pastor Schaller,

We the humble church body in Braintree congratulate you on your new position of
Chief Elder/Pastor of Greater Grace World Outreach; voted for by the Baltimore local
assembly on April 16, 2005, and validated by
the elders, by a vote of 8 - 0, on Friday, April 22, 2005.

We are bountifully blessed that you have shown your heart of great respect for Pastor
Carl H. Stevens; for his
life of dedication to Christ, the Gospel, and every one of us who have been part
of this ministry for so many
years, by providing him his position due in the Body of Christ, as Senior Pastor.

I, Pastor Franck Corbiere, Head Pastor of Greater Grace Church of Boston, personally
witnessed a healthy
church body, and increased revival among the brethren at Greater Grace World Outreach
in Baltimore during
the three services and raps and outreaches that I personally attended in the same
time interval expressed in the first paragraph, despite the external and internal
unfair oppositions. My spirit and soul were blessed and fed by the presence of
God during the rich messages that I heard, and by the intense fellowship.

Hereafter, Greater Grace Church of Boston purposes in our hearts and in writing,
to continue to pursue the most blessed affiliation with Greater Grace World Outreach,
and to be under the spiritual covering of Pastor Carl H. Stevens; founder of the
ministry, and Pastor Thomas Schaller, with the signing of this letter by myself
and the elders of our church.

In His Grace,


Franck Corbiere, Pastor

Joel Samuel, Assistant Pastor

David Merrett, Elder

John FIllebrown, Elder

Natrum Nathasingh, Deacon

Shem Henry, Deacon

cc: P. CH Stevens, and the GGWO Elders


This was an 'open' letter sent to most of the GGWO pastors. I responded, but will wait a few days before posting, perhaps he will address my response first.....

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

Seneca Falls, Rome and many other affiliates have internet domain names referencing GGWO... is this something that will change along with the content of the pages? Just wondering, as I've noticed that Seneca Falls' page is under construction...

[j_graz (j_graz)]

Our church is under construction, well actually reconstruction.
Voted on the name change today. We'll be filing new Corp. papers this week with the State. We wanted to wait for the new church name before looking for a new 'domain' name.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Imao - I think P Morin and others have been most gracious. It is CHS and TS that have slandered folks, oh and don't forget SS. It is Baltimore and the ones supporting the crumbling walls who need to repent, PUBLICALLY I might add.

TS continues it with his plastic smile and "they are still our brothers,,," then attacking with inuendos at the service and directly at the RAPs. Open your eyes to the truth Imao, it truly does set one free. BTW, Jesus called religious pharisees "snakes and vipers!" Guess what people are who mark and slander? Yup, snakes and vipers.

[yogi (yogi)]

Thank you for presenting objective data P. Graz. Now if you will please excuse me I need to go find my Pepto bismo for my upset stomach.

yogi

PS. Ralph I posted this yesterday and thought you might find it an interesting read...

FYI: Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 11:46 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did anyone see them put that poor naive man from Dallas up to PRAISE GGWO on the internet service today? pathetic

And what's with Jeff and Nancy Phelps preaching at GGWO "homebase" if their home church in Tacoma headed by Tom Powell, is disaffiliating?
I am very disappointed in them for not taking a stand and boycotting GGWO in EVERY way!

Did anyone listen to T. Schaller's double entant this morning during GGWO church service? He sounds just like his mentor using Jesus' precious word to justify himself and his practices! Where is the true recognition and repentance for his subversive tactics of getting himself elected as Chief Elder and forcing Stenger's resignation? He wants the affiliates but he doesn't abide by the SC? What a hypocrite!

TS QUOTE: "I'm not going to share my spirit with the proud..."

Another words Tommy Boy you are not going to repent and speak the truth in love. How can you say these "godly platitudes" and not repent of your subversive tactics of dealing with Paul Stevens, Lewis (not that he didn't do his own share of destroying lives too), Steve Stevens, Gerry Graziano, Skip Wood, Mark Morin, Roger Stenger and many others!

TS QUOTE:"28 kinds of pride Doctor Stevens taught us..."make that 29 Tommy Boy. No, you have your own "special" brand of pride!

TS QUOTE: "Judge not least you be judged?" Aren't you judging those who are exposing the truth about YOU and your minions despicable acts of secret raps etc, etc. to get you "elected" as CE Tommy Boy?

TS QUOTE: "For he shall speak not of himself..."
*twist* those scriptures Tommy Boy, so you won't have to be accountable.

TS QUOTE: "The thing I am most concerned about is our spirituality as a fellowship...concerned about our self-sufficiency..."
*twist" some more with subtle inferences and lies Tommy Boy! You should be concerned about your self-sufficiency because if you don't come clean there will probably be only three churches as affiliates: Hungary, Pastor Matti's and Pastor Morrison's.

TS QUOTE: "This fellowship is unique (GGWO?)"
*twist* Is it? Perhaps you're right Tommy Boy, after all, it's one of the few churchs with NO accountability, misuse of tithes and offerings and continued, unrepentant subversion to run things!

TS QUOTE: Act's description of the New Testament church...
*twist* you must stay at GGWO because it's JUST like the N.T. church... NOT!

TS QUOTE: "Are they interested to know God Almighty will meet my greatest need?"

*twist* If you question or leave GGWO it was infered one is NOT interested in knowing God and the that one doesn't believe HE will meet one's greatest need, so DON'T think and DON'T question my spiritual insights and authority, otherwise, I will know you don't want to know God and see Him as your sufficiency...Tommy Boy YOU'RE A LIAR!

TS QUOTE: "Fundamental error in all of our lives is that sleeping,creeping pride..."
*twist* TAKE A GOOD, LONG LOOK IN THE MIRROR TOMMY BOY!

Tommy Boy continued to twist facts and infere many things; all beautifully, "exegeted" from scripture out of context. He summarized his "beautiful" "broken" sermon with accusations of jealousy...*twist* *twist*
PLEASE! Yes, we are jealous of all you deceived who are being manipulated by charlatans.

Tommy Boy, DON'T use God's beautiful word to justify your secret, hateful actions...HOW DARE YOU!

No Tommy Boy, God is permitting this...remember 'if a man's ways are pleasing to the Lord even his enemies will be at peace with him.' Read on Tommy Boy, many enemies are NOT at peace with you, Carl Stevens or the two-faced elders of GGWO!

TS QUOTE: "Speak according to my flesh I will never become what I should be...
*twist* Those on FACTNet are speaking according to THEIR flesh so they will NEVER become what they should be spiritually. Tommy Boy hides behind the words of the Bible to induce fear and to protect himself from having to admit to wrong doings or tell the truth about the lack of spiritual, financial and personal accountability of Carl Stevens, the perversion and twisting of scripture for the advantage and continuance of an abusive church system!

Very subtle abuse and these poor stupids continue to believe this charlatan too! Please run into the arms of Jesus in a NON-abusive church system, PLEASE!

yogi

[minutus (minutus)]

I was speaking with a former GGWO missionary and recently-exiled pastor, an old friend I hadn't seen in years. He had told Darth Schallerious that he hadn't kicked someone's ass in years, but Tommy sure was provoking him to such an action. I guess from listening to such vomitous bilge I could understand why.

[daved (daved)]

Pastor Maciej Wilkosz writes:

<font color="ff0000">>>>
Question One

2 weeks prior to 3/1/05
Repeated attempts to contact &amp; inform Pastor Stevens of the need to replace him were unsuccessful.

Why exactly were these attempts unsuccessful? Was he physically or mentally unable to communicate with his closest associates or simply unwilling to do it?
>>></font>

According to The Grace Hour Archives Pastor Carl Stevens was rather easy to locate on
March 31, 2005--He was co-hosting “The Grace Hour”

<font color="0000ff">1. Thursday, March 31, 2005
Devotional message by P. Steve Stevens: "Sought Out 3-9-05"
Today's Host: Pastor Carl H. Stevens, Pastor Glenn Cannon and Pastor Robinson</font>

According to The Grace Hour Archives Pastor Carl Stevens was rather easy to locate on
March 29, 2005--He was co-hosting “The Grace Hour”

<font color="0000ff">3. Tuesday, March 29, 2005
Devotional message by Pastor Carl Stevens:
" Consistent Lines Throughout the Bible" Tape #8064
Today's Host: Pastor Carl H. Stevens, Pastor Love, and Pastor Morrison</font>

The above evidence can be found at the link below:
http://www.ggwo.org/grace_hour_archives.html

I wonder how hard they looked for Pastor Carl Stevens, on March 29, 2005,
and on March 31, 2005?


daved

(Message edited by daved on May 02, 2005)

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Pastor Wilkosz

You have a right to know this information as all of use do.
It is all very shady, again the same corruption to try to preserve the church.
My Bible tells me that God preserves us, not man. It also tells me to expose unfruitful works. You know what else it tells me that no hidden thing will remain unturned. I see this all playing out right now.
For every verse GG uses to be quiet I can find a verse that says to expose, how about teaching people the balance. There is such a thing as righteous anger so why not teach this. Oh, it might just cause someone to go against them huh.

I have heard so many times obey them that have the rule over you Hebrews 13:7, but the whole verse is never taught. The end of that verse says "whose faith follow considering the end of his conversation (Conduct). Why did they not teach part B of that verse.
I have also heard The verse in Isaiah, I believe 11:5 where it says judge not by the sight of your eyes or the hearing of your ears, but again the end of this verse is not taught either which says "but judge with righteous judgement"

The list goes on and on, so why not the balance? It might just cause people to think for
themselves.

Sorry got a little rapped up there.
It is very interesting how things have played out in Greater Grace. All but two elders voted for Steinger. Why the change, all but two of them can't take the crap going on but again they revote for schaller go figure. I heard from one two weeks before the vote who said we have a few pharisees in the church meaning Schaller and Scibelli, but what does he do to save face and a job, votes for Schaller. This will go on and on people don't have the gutz. If God created us as individuals he sure did it for a reason. That reason was so that we could learn to think for ourselves, Greater Grace calls it a spirit of independance I call it a Spirit of individuality in Christ, if God wanted us to be puppets he would have never given us free volition.
He wanted us to learn to love Him freely. No bondage just to love Him because He first loved us.
I don't care how much you do for Christ if His love doesn't flow through you in the process it is all in vain.
I can't take it when people say look at all I have done, look at my fruit. When a soul gets saved it is Gods work not ours, we were just available he however prepared the person before hand by softening His heart for the very moment He would be spoken of.
You shall know them by their fruit, what is fruit? Galatians 5:22 it is the work of the spirit: Love, joy, peace, patience, long suffereing etc. Don't look at what someone has done and call it fruit, look at them and see if you see the fruits of the spirit, this is the fruit that remains. Look for the marks of the cross in a persons life.
I hate what is going on right now, and I have left because of it, I cant to be apart of that spirit any more. It is not Gods heart just to blow people off because they won't go with your flow. I love Pastor Scibelli and Schaller but God has to do a work in them so that they will learn to love those they marked. They have to go through the cross for this, maybe this season will cause that, the same for pastor Stevens.
Until then we go on with God wherever God places us, Satan would want nothing more at this time than to cause us to give up. You know what I love about God though, He continues to tug at the heart. When we are faithless He remains faithful.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Pressing_on - Welcome! Excellent post, thank you.

P. Maciej - thank you for posting. I miss you Sir! Be blessed.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

You know what really gets me about this whole voting thing, number one- since when has politics become a part of the church, number two- is it now right to change the bylaws of a church in the process of replacing someone.

I can't believe the elders allowed this. People where campaigning for schaller in the Hallways at the college.
Also one of the pastors sister in laws placed in all the nursery and preschool mailboxes a letter stating as to why Schaller is the man for the job.
Many where upset about that one.
This alone would be a red flag as to the Spirit of his followers which in turn shows the spirit of his influence on his followers.
Why couldn't they have just taken the elders word. Know they have no authority, sickening. I'll tell you why it was a conspiracy one that started over a year ago.
Schaller was not going to be stopped until he got his position. I knew this was going to happen a year ago. I had talked to someone in the car back then and we laid the whole thing out. The last thing we were waiting to here is that Marr finally seperates from Schaller, this may not be to far down the road, great conspiracy guys. Shows you how much energy Satan can give and how powerful it is. Remember God doesn't stop men from using their free volition.

[j_graz (j_graz)]

Where are these letters that were circulated?

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

bump

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

J Graz
Not I but a friend of mine still attends Greater Grace, she received the letter in her childs mail box she was furious, some of her friends where furious also. She wanted to confront the person who put them in the boxes but her husband informed her not to because they did not want to start anything. I can not reveal who they are because they still attend and one of them works on the staff. See how this works everyone is scared of being marked, it really upsets me. The only thing I can tell you is it was one of the Veaders who put them there, that is all at this time.
Before God this is the honest truth.
I can't go against her at this time it was revealed to me only because she was so upset, I can not uncover her. I hope you understand.
Just another thing covered by Greater Grace

[j_graz (j_graz)]

I hope they read these boards...

[jeannie (jeannie)]

P.Graz, I heard a meeting was held in the missions department with Schaller speaking from Finland, to a packed room. I heard different people were assigned different things to write and address in their protest campaign for Schaller. I assume these hand written letters were circulated to appear as just an individual opinion when in fact it was a well planned attack to take Rodger out.

And Pressing On,
What you have witnessed this past year is what many of us had witnessed in the year prior. This is not a new way of "dealing" in GGWO. I witnessed the most immoral, unbiblical, unethical behavior in all the key players. Schaller just played a better game. He quietly set up his minions (in every department).. kept himself under the radar and in Carl's good graces and won the top prize. He is one very smart religious fanatic. And do you think he really cares if all these churches disaffiliate? He does not.. it fits his perception of himself... He is Joshua, HE WILL possess the land! Carl is a "Moses".. he messed up and will not enter the promised land... but Joshua, he didn't need the ten ... all he needs is the two... He expects to do more with less....

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

So do I but if she reads it she will be upset I revealed this.

I don't know each persons capacity only God does. You want to shake them and wake them up but only God can. I heard things years back but dismissed them as rumors now I believe. I have to allow God to speak to them, just as it took me time to realize.
I just pray that they to will finally speak out.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

I think it is hard when you have been controlled for so long. You really believe what you have been taught, it becomes your life and when you break away it is very difficult to overcome those things. I still have some hard times with all of it but I know God will always be faithful. I don't think you ever really get over it I think you learn to move beyond it. God gives you an inner strength that you never had before, and you realize God is your God and that He cares for you, that He is not out to harm you but to prosper you. Why would God harm those who want to go forward in Him or those who have been wounded by someone who was suppose to tend to them tenderly. I know my God and He would never do such a thing. Now it is learning to trust His word, His promises, His plan. He will will do this, my favorite verse Philippians 2:13 It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure. See the work is Gods

[yogi (yogi)]

You're in the right place pressing_on! Hang in there and keep joining us, you are SO welcome here!

yogi

PS. None of our fingers have fallen off from posting the truth here either...http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[timeless (timeless)]

Hi Yogi,

Are you going to be at the reunion? I hope that one day we can meet. That would be nice http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[nonotone (nonotone)]

... and I'll add one for you John Love:

We are ALL made in the image of God. Marriage came BEFORE the church and in fact instituted the first "church" (from a Covenantal perspective). As members of God' s house, our legitimate work (of any kind) unto and for God is sacred including the 1000's of hours that 100's of us labored to raise the money that paid the tithes and offerings that funded the settlement that GGWO was required (and rightly so) to relieve the suffering, displacement, and near destruction of the Lang family because of Paul M. Stevens adultery and the combined conspiracy that ensued (directly involving Carl H. Stevens) to discredit Alan Lang, attempt to destroy his family, and in the end try to coverup the whole matter.

How is GGWO going to answer this? When are you going to hold Carl H. and Paul M. Stevens responsible in good conscience and faith to make restitution for the several hundred-thousand dollars paid to the Langs?

The rummeration (from Carl and Paul) of this money belongs to the Church for the futherance of Kingdom of God. Paul and Carl violated the peace and purity of Christ's church. This is an affront to those of us who worked sacrifically (while being constantly pounded from Carl's pulpit to DO MORE in ministry on top of this).

Get some GUTZ and either make this right or step down from the minstry, PERIOD!


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

[yogi (yogi)]

Thank you timeless,

Not sure if I will be able to attend due to job conflicts. But your kind outstretched hand means a lot!

yogi

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Yogi:

I hope you can get rid of your job conflicts and come. The rocky coast of Maine in August is pretty neat.

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

jeannie... very interesting your post about TS seeing himself as joshua and CHS as moses. sounds very plausible to me.

[yogi (yogi)]

Well if I do you all had better watch out for your pic-i-nic-a baskets.

yogi

[anova (anova)]

Yogi,

You really should be at this reunion.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Thanks Yogi!

[anon_for_ever (anon_for_ever)]

Jeannie, I've been thinking about your Joshua-TS -parable. It sounds true. He is a man of principle and doesn't count the cost.

Soon after p Schaller started the church in Finland in the 70's there was a huge persecution, we were on the front pages of the national scandal papers, picturing young people making Hitler salutions. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Now 30 years later the atmosphere in Finland has changed and we are not the only strange church here with foreign origin. Anyway, we were persecuted because the FAMILIES didn't understand why their children quit their university studies and went to an obscure Bible school that didn't give you any profession or diploma to show anywhere. How our parents could be so oldfashioned and narrow minded! LOL!

Also the main religion in Finland, the Lutheran church opposed TBS heresy. The Pentecostals were kind of friendly to us first, but something happened in the relations on the leader level and they became our fierce enemies.

This shows clearly that p Schaller is very good at starting Bible Schools, getting young students excited about missions, giving them a vision, stirring up people's faith. Very good things. But the other side of the coin is that he doesn't see any need to try to please parents, authorities, other churches and pastors. He doesn't want to compromise, because he sees his vision, the Promised Land, so clearly. He is good in conveying faith and grace; I haven't caught him preaching any legalism. Basically he is a tremendous pastor, but he is lacking humility and diplomatic skills. Can anybody help him? Can we learn something from the experiences in Finland 25-30 years ago? This present schism between MBC&amp;S students and affiliated parents/pastors is paraller to the happenings back then.

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Yogi is NOT coming to the reunion? What is that?

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Hey Yogi, Mr. Ranger says if you come to teh reunion he will turn his back as you steal pic-a-nic baskets. What d'ya say Yogi.

It will be lonely without you!

Boo Boo

[itstimetomoveon (itstimetomoveon)]

it is time to move on.....

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

We already moved on. We moved here. Glad to have you with us.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

... really, "Time to Move On". How about doing what is right and taking responsiblity as LEADERS? This would be a good start toward "moving on". The simple problem is that Carl's historical overextended application of the "Finished Work" is used as an excuse to ingnore the Conscience (or turn it off altogether) and repudiate the moral demands of God's Law (both O.T. and N.T.).

Brian Bowman
John 3:21

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Really "Time to move on?" Let me quote your idol, "Get right!" The thing that has only been taught by a few individuals in GG is repentance. Study it, with your eyes open. It has RESPONSIBILITY tied to it.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

For Lana