Starting a Process For Redressing Wrongs

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Matthew 18:15 (ESV)
"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother."

Matthew 5:23 – 24
[23] So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, [24] leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Note that the responsibility for beginning the process of redressing wrongs or beginning repentance is always on "you"--YOU...go and tell him his fault--YOU...remember that your brother has something against you.

So without regard to who has committed the wrongdoing the responsibility for redress is always upon the one who first recognises a wrong has been done. We are often more conscious of having a wrong done to us than we are having done a wrong to another. Sometimes we are amazed that someone has been offended by our actions.

I know a pastor who had a member in his congregation who had been one of the stalwarts. He neglected to acknowledge her one Sunday as he was greeting members of the church. She was hurt. Later she expressed that hurt. He was completely unaware of ignoring her.

Many have commented on my good memory on this forum. Having a good memory is not always so great a thing--sometimes it is like having a mental video of your most embarrassing moments played again and again. I have just had an email from someone I knew thirty-two years ago. It brought to mind something that I had done many years ago...acted like a real horse's rear-end to that person. But it was an opportunity as well.

Sometimes addressing wrongs means bringing up painful memories, remembering hurtful words and actions--reliving the moment again. But if we want to repent or call another to repentance we must relive that time. "Rebound" does not heal the rift caused by our sin. A general acknowledgement of having done wrong may be a beginning--but there must be an open door to redress specific instances of errors, sins, transgressions, ungodliness and unrighteousness--especially if we are estranged from our brethren because of these things.

I think some have retreated to the GGWO idea of the Bema seat because they believe they will not have to give an account. What if they are wrong and we and they must give an account of EVERY IDLE WORD?

I believe there is but a single judgment, those who hold to a separate Bema for Christians do not. What if I am right? Then the only difference between believers and unbelievers at the Great White Throne assizes is that believers have an advocate with the Father who has already been judged for all their sins and unbelievers have no advocate there, but must answer alone.

Without engendering too much doctrinal speculation here, wouldn't you rather answer to your brothers and sisters in the here and now than answer to God in the presence of all humanity and the angels later? If I had my druthers...

While I am sure others may have different ways of putting their thoughts down here's a simple plan:


1. Who wronged you?
Was it more than one person? What was their position in GGWO?

2. What happened?
Were there hurtful words said? Did someone do something hurtful? Outline the events, actions, words to the best of your ability.

3. When did it happen?
Establish time and place as best as possible.

4. Where did this occur?
Were you a member of GGWO? Did you leave? Were others present? Who else knows of the wrong done to you?

5. How did you suffer?
Was it emotionally, physically, financially, some other way? Was your family hurt as well? Relationships destroyed?

6. Along with a turning from sin by the offender, what needs to happen to put this wrong right? What can the person who wronged you do to resolve the issue?

7. Was there any concurrent wrongdoing on your part that you need to consider and turn from in the course of the event?

<font color="0000ff">Galatians 6:1-5 (ESV)
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. [2] Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. [3] For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. [4] But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. [5] For each will have to bear his own load.</font>


If we can put these things down in an orderly manner--and I am sure with all those posting here there will be pages and pages that can be collected--a presentation of these grievances can be presented to GGWO elders.

<font color="ff0000">Can we choose someone, generally trusted, to collect these stories and make them available to a number of us?</font>

I will be happy to review them with the biblical issues to be addressed in mind. I am sure others will be able to see more clearly the emotional hurts that need to be addressed, and peacemaking steps that need to be taken.

We would then be the two or more witnesses required by scripture to present these things to the elders, keeping in mind in what spirit we are to go so that we do not add to the problem and increase the burdens of many.

<font color="0000ff">I would be willing to work with Drago, Bowman, Carson and anyone else concerning addressing the doctrinal errors that endorse, enable, condone, or incite sinful behavior. This would include assessment of current leadership and their suitability to continue serving in the capacity of elder or pastor. Some may not want to consider that they may have disqualified themselves, but any admission of wrongdoing must at least show a willingness in this area, does it not? Otherwise, admissions of guilt ring in a rather hollow fashion--showing that one is only covering one's position of power. Pardon my 'Prince Charlesspeak.'</font>

Jim Faucett (somebonus@yahoo.com)
(Message edited by Jim Faucett on December 13, 2004)

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on December 13, 2004)

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on December 13, 2004)

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Impressive Jim. I would suggest that perhaps Anon the Brief might be someone we could trust to gather these stories.

I know that confidentiality would be maintained by all involved as there may be issues of a highly personal nature that some wish to address.

Are you planning to get together with a few and draft an over all statement similar to the "List of wrongs at GGWO" thread that we started here? And if so could we be allowed to endorse that document with our names?

This is a very balanced approach and if we get started right away we could begin to move the process along, no?

Perhaps Jim would like to hear from all of us about his strategy...I for one am all for it.

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on December 13, 2004)

[lee (lee)]

Why go again Jim?

Their leader is diminished in cognitive ability, they haven't appointed a new one, who do you talk to? Men that weren't there when we were? Men that were there but were students at the time? Men that have demonstrated already their belief that they are innocent?

I'm not trying to be difficult, but haven't we done what we were supposed to do already?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

I'm okay with Anon the Brief.

Endorsable document is a good idea, too. I would hope one could be put together with a minimum of reservations.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Lee,

Have we all gone as a single voice before?

Does it matter about Carl? Will the ones who are there continue in error without him?

Have we done all we were supposed to? Hey, I don't know. If we have, what now?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

By the way, I am still wondering since Hadley was the one who last week offered up an open show of repentance why he hasn't yet phoned his sister.

[lee (lee)]

I'm just wondering Jim, because, if we've already done as the Bible has instructed us, then should we do more?

I agree, one voice is powerful.

If Carl doesn't matter, then I can see them saying that they had nothing to do with what happened and dismiss us. I can see them refusing to deal with anything that originated with Carl. You know, the new ministry vs the old ministry.

Have we done all? The thing we did not do until FACTNet, was to tell it to the church. FACTNet has been the only vehicle we've found that we can use and reach people from all over. A permanent record for all to read at their convenience. A good question that I think is difficult to answer.
I think I'd sign a document that stated unGodly practices need to be repented of, however, I'd be hard pressed to prove to the inth degree, with when, where, whom, time, date and so on.....it could get ridiculous! Example: I threw out all letters, notes etc that slandered us.

I've been wondering about the Hadley thing......was it repentance or a performance? Anyone heard from Margaret?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

I think it would be safe to say that I know Hadley hadn't phoned his sister as of yesterday.

I don't think the same sort of evidence as might be required in a court of law is required here, but it would be a good idea to have your facts straight--so that it could be known what was required of all parties.

I think this kind of move is a good one, after all, they are not going to just shut the doors and go home and factnet is a record for all to see--people will still post here. Is that the status quo and should it just be left alone?

What is it that those who are wronged want these guys to do? Telling them with a hundred voices is like trying to listen to a mob. Better to be represented and have a documented argument and a course of action suggested for redress IMHO.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I understand what you mean Lee, but this proposal Jim has made may be a very good idea for the current congregation. I can think of more than a few people from the Baltimore congregation that have been mistreated, maligned, lied about publicly etc, and these issues are unaddressed and the people involved have lost much.

Take Jeannie and Steve Byrne for example, Nancy Curra, Lori, etc. These people have legitimate issues that likly could be properly addressed by our representative. This can be utilized two ways...restitutions and concerns addressed in the present as examples of the thousands who in past incarnations of this organization were ripped off, used, abused etc.

What could the elders do? Public repentence for individual case wronmgs, and public repentence for the wrongs of the past: accepting $$ from people who sold all they had, were promised a home for life and now live in abject poverty, repentence for the lives ruined, marriages compromised, etc.

I think it has merit and can be looked at from that perspective.

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on December 13, 2004)

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on December 13, 2004)

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Hadley would have to be convicted that he has wronged his sister before he'd ever pick up a phone. I doubt that he sees any of his own culpability in this situation....at least not yet.

[lee (lee)]

You mean, I start to break down what we've been talking about in terms of the system and not the sin and start to name names? Like one incident at a time?

Honestly, one incident at a time is easy to dismiss, but adding them up over time, makes you think twice about it. Normally, I wouldn't care about some nincompoop man with a title , mouthing off about how evil we are, because I think he just shows himself to be more culpable than me. But, when that kind of behavior is commonplace , as it is within GGWO, then you need to address it. When you put your stories with others stories, then you have something that reveals more than just one man's sin, but a whole host of men's sins. The originator is their beloved pastor!
But still, it is a system of belief that allows them to behave like this.

I know I am bigger than some man in upstate New York thinking he knows us and knows our heart, and our behavior. The problem is, that my friend Jack Burnett was very upset by his words. I haven't heard from Jack since then and who knows what this man that calls himself a pastor has tried to convince Jack of? Jack was once in the Local Church(Witness Lee) we often spoke of the similarities between the ministries......I can assure you that, unless this #@*% socalled pastor has succeeded in duping Jack, (which, I doubt) he has succeeded in separating good friends. BUT, he is not an Elder, he is not in BAltimore, who knows where he got his info......Carl or Bruce Moon? Robin Moon? Am I to name names or track down this story to verify who said what when? I honestly don't know who gave him this info.

Or perhaps you are speaking in generalities, showing the sytem instead of the sin?

I admit I'm a bit leery of doing more than the Bible tells us to do. Please bear with me as I figure this out.

There are some in Baltimore that should be thankful that I haven't spilled the beans and told other stuff that I know that was done deceitfully that they told me about. I wonder if I started to names names.......I mean really name names if they would think differently?

I just don't see in the Bible, where it says I should go any further than what we've already done.

[chris (chris)]

Commendable ideas but...remember these people are accountable to no one. Unless you can legally prove wrongdoing what is your platform other than that of moral issues? How do you propose to change their hearts? This is not a court of law where we can adress moral issues and force change, it is an organization whose representatives are doing as they please and whose attendees support them.

These people do not really want change. They are very capable of correcting the moral issues discussed here in a very short period of time. Remember, this is a dictatorship...there is no other voice, but...they will string you along forever pretending to listen.

Had we heard and seen true repentance yesterday we would have rejoiced with them and offered our love and support to help in any way we could. We can only speak the truth in love; however, we cannot force change.

Jeannie what are your thoughts?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Then if you are not convicted that this is something you personally can partake in I think you should listen to that.

However, what about those who do know the details, do have the info, do need restitution, do want to have this pile of stuff seen here in the present? Perhaps it is something that might benefit them and show the elders the volume of transgressions.

Just a thought...perhaps they need an object lesson here...

[chris (chris)]

Bottom line is...they do not care!

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Chris...the idea, I think is to deal with this biblically even if they don't...right?

Then confront them with our collective statement about what we consider they have done wrong, where they have sinned, and that we expect nothing less that full true public repentance?

If they refuse we publicise the truth...that they were confronted and refused.

Other than that what do you suggest?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I know they don't care...but we do.

[lee (lee)]

I said I'm not convinced.....I didn't say convicted. I said I don't see that its biblical. I'm asking to be taught.....you know, shown that what is being proposed is the right way to go. Something tht will help me be convicted that this is what God would want me to do.

Obviously, I have no qualms about naming names and I'm so ****ed off that I might just do that, but I still want to know wht God would have me do. I don't want to be written off so easily.

I don't want to be like those men on the stage yesterday. I don't want to be like those people that clapped and cheered their words.

The Bible says that at some point in time, we should shake the dust off our feet. I'm sure those HEADS in Balt would breathe a sigh of relief if we'd shut up and go away, but I'm not saying I'd be quiet just because I shake the dust from my feet. I think what I'd say might just rattle them more!

[chris (chris)]

They have been confronted many times over the years, and everything remains the same. We all have a free will, the elders and the people who sit there week after week do too. I care about the people there very much, I have friends and family that are still there. But there are some things that we personally cannot change. These people have a will not to listen...we cannot change that.

(Message edited by Chris on December 13, 2004)

[lee (lee)]

I think your'e right Chris.

The Bible doesn't state anywhere that if we don't get desired repentance the first time, then try again. What if it doesn't work a second time? Try a third time? For some of us, posting on factnet has been a second time around to bring things out to the open.

I refuse to be cowed by the fact that we have family and loved ones there. So What? If they love their pastor and his ministry more than us then I'm sure I can accept that. Let them kiss his feet and roll over for him and the Elders and anyone else they want to dance for. There comes a times when you have to be ruthless and just make the biblical decision and let those that oppose or who aren't there yet go their own way.

Our relatives know whts happening. It's their choice to remain silent and separate. They answer to God, not me. They can align themselves with Swami Whoknowswhat for all I care.....they have to stand on their own two feet and abide by the consequences of their decision. They've had enough info.....God will decide when and if they are sinning, not me. God doesn't need me to get them out. I'm positive that God will minister to them as graciously as he did to us. If they listen great, if not, then let them practice giving standing ovations.

Roberta, I'm trying to sort things out....please don't be so quick to write me off.

[chris (chris)]

Isn't it really the job of the Holy Spirit to speak to men's hearts? If they won't listen to us and they won't listen to Him there is nothing left that we can do except pray. Perhaps over time their hearts may soften and they may be willing to listen, but we cannot force that.

Jesus never forced anyone to follow Him. He asked people to follow Him... some listened and responded and followed Him and some did not.

I am not by any means suggesting that we give up. I am saying that we must be led by God and not resort to our own devices.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

I have some thoughts...

1. If some of you collectively desire to present something to the elders then do it. Please do not do it on my behalf.



2. I am viewing the fact that my husband went to his peers while he still as on staff and CHS, the action on FACTNet, the long,long,long phone conversations as a long long long process of Mt18. I felt a great sense of relief watching the elder's declaration yesterday. Their obvious lack of repentance, their obvious lack of remorse, their obvious discounting of all of us who have departed as of no value CLOSED THE MT18 PART OF THE PROCESS FOR ME. My husband calmly leaned forward and wiped the dust from his feet. No words spoken, none needed..the spirit spoke loudly to both of us; actually the four of us; my son and his wife were with us. We personally will deal with these men no more. I saw not the slightest open door for further discourse. I will not be sucked into repeated go-rounds with those from another kingdom.



3. "Oh what tangled web we weave..... well, we lived, operated, had families, worked in a huge, huge deceptive web and it is up to God to untangle this. Sin is not the issue, THE DECEPTION IS! It is not the sin but the system. I will not start pointing out sins now after months and months of begging for the system to change. Tell me how I can possible bring up other's sins when it is my own children who at one time shunned me?? My husband partook in the evil towards Kent Sutorius. They are close friends now. Do you want Kent to publicly declare the wrongs committed against him? Well then, he would have to point his finger at Ed Lutz, who now is also been slandered and maligned. And who should Linda Canino point out? We could go on and on and oh how they(the elders) would love it!

We are at a defining moment, let's consider how important our next step is. I believe it is gathering together, prayer, rejoicing, brain-storming, supporting and COLLECTIVELY WIPING THE DUST FROM OUR FEET. With the dust of TBS/GGWO gone we can go forward and help others. I have nothing more to say to the elders of GGWO, I view them as publicans and heathens.

[chris (chris)]

Thank you Jeannie, well said.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I've sought gathering from early on in my time here. I believe that the Lord will lead some back to the Berkshires and other places from 'the ministry's' past to reclaim territory. I think there are hot spiritual things God has in store. I also think abuse throughout the whole Church should be addressed and that victims should be given new ground. GGWO is only a small piece of the whole puzzle.

There's a whole generation-plus of 'kids' that grew up under this stuff. They can seem very disconnected spiritually. But I believe they're meant to reach further into the cultural havens of the world than us oldsters can. I believe God has purpose in what He's allowed. I want to make our spiritual enemy pay. The wrongs should be used to take down his doings in this world. Turn over those tables! Throw out the money-changers! Get radical for Jesus.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Jeannie,

Amen and Amen. I personally very tired from all of this.

In contrast, last night was the Christmas Concert at our new church. For the FIRST TIME in 8 years, I was INVITED to play both Guitar or Bass on three songs during this concert. Many many others participated as well on various instruments, vocal parts, and acting. There was no competition that I could discern. The sense of true Christian community, appreciation for EVERYONE's gifts, and "body life" was overwhelming to me.

The contrast between this and the "control" at GGWO for who participates in these types of events was, for me, as "clear as crystal". ... and just in case anyone is wondering, the quality of the music and vocals was generally on par with anything at GGWO Baltimore.

Friends, this is NORMAL church life.

Brian Bowman
John 3:21

(Message edited by nonotone on December 13, 2004)

[joni_fortin (joni_fortin)]

If it were New Year's eve, I would 'toot' my horn!! These discussions are awesome. They are thought provoking, challenging, encouraging, soul-searching, motivating and defining. Open and honest discussion, without reprisals, is the true essence of what it means to be 'alive'. (many of us were were stripped and violated to the inth degree at TBS/GGWO in this area). I thank EACH one of you from the bottom of my heart. You have shown the many facets of Christs' love, it is truly remarkable!

One last thing, I read something Maya Angelou said many years ago:

"When people show you who they are, believe them the first time"!! If there is one thing I have learned and has been sharpened in my spirit, is that I 'see' and most assuredly 'believe' what I see.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Wow.

I guess I am surprised by these reactions. I never thought there would be anything like repentance from the elders on Sunday. I was not surprised there was no repentance. I don't think that repentance can be true anyway unless accountability is realized.

I hear "shaking off the dust". I hear that some think it is too tiring, taxing and a losing battle?

Is that now what you are saying? This is an honest question not a ploy to make any point. Is this what you are collectively trying to say? Have a gathering? For what purpose? If this is a "defining moment" defining in what way of walking away is what people want to do next.

Why are you so ****ed off Lee? Did you think they'd really repent? Something else?

I think I must have had a different idea about all of this all along. I think I missed the point along the way...all of a sudden I feel this sorrow like a shroud just thinking about the others still there.

Jim? What do you say? Have I been naive? Too blind? Tell me what I am not understanding...do we just sit and wait for Carl to die?

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Roberta,

I am not tired, taxed or feel like a battle has been lost, quite the contrary.

I say it is a defining moment for me and it is the elders who defined it with their appalling lack of true repentance.

I say defining moment because it is clear in the spiritual sense that God's power lies with us, collectively, the discounted and discarded. If we, within the context of cyberspace, can reach out to each other and those who have been wounded, how much more can we do if we meet and pray?

I say defining moment because it has dawned on me that the weight of spiritual power is with us. In sheer numbers alone we outweigh them. We are gifted people with a heart for others AND the Holy Spirit. We share this unique experience of exiting TBS/GG doors. What I saw at GG yesterday was a few men, operating in "another" spirit. Their leader is gone, they are knee deep in lies, slander and wrong-doing and THEY HAVE NO INTENTION OF REPENTING AS LEADERS OVER THE MESS CHS CREATED AND THEY ENABLED AND NOW PRACTICE THE SAME DEEDS WITH THE SAME SPIRIT.

I sensed the spirit of God in Bruder5's comments. We must gather together and tap into our God-given power to mend and restore. It is not over, it is just beginning.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I posted this to you on another thread and will post it here as well...(I had more questions)

So...is that IT, Jeannie? You are done? You are writing them off now? This repentance thing we all KNEW wasn't going to happen is what you were waiting for?

What are you doing now...are you planning to just walk away? Now? Rather than confront them as a group face to face (a couple of representatives) with a document we all endorse confronting them point by point? So...they don't do anything about it? Well, guess what? THEN you publish the damned document and show the few who may be listening or may someday listen that at least we tried?

Why did we bother to post the Elsinore letter here? The CRI Report or anything else? So others might see and find them informative...but you just want to shake off the dust, walk away, and say to hell with the others there who still cannot understand what is really happening?

I missed the boat here someplace...I thought this was something we were going to see through to an acceptable end.

Dave is NOT misled by the way...he has a spiritfilled hope for those still imprisoned by the false doctrine. God bless him.

How strange this talk of shaking off the dust...and disappointing.

[yogi (yogi)]

Since GGWO considers itself to be an evangelical inter-denominational church is there; and could we involve some council of Evangelical Churches in the US to bring about accountability? Unfortunately, it is true that the only person Carl Stevens is accountable to is Carl Stevens so... a generic and perhaps unrealistic idea. Your thoughts on said would be greatly appreciated Jim et al.

Yogi

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Roberta,

We all have unique gifts and different compellings by the Holy Spirit. If someone feels compelled to confront the elders with a document I say "Godspeed." But I am compelled to NOT deal with the elders anymore. I pray that each and everyone of them experiences an ephipany and repents. If one of them does they will be forced to leave and I will welcome them with open arms.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Are you through with factnet...

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Lol.. no Berta, what gave you that idea? Except maybe to get my Christmas shopping done!

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Jim, I think that your suggestion is most excellent. It is a win-win scenario for anyone wronged by the leadership.

If it works and sin is corrected, you win.

If it doesn't and the status quo is maintained, you win the right to pursue other action(s) without legitimate accusation of un-Biblical behaviour.

Either outcome benefits the one who was wronged.

I do not believe that this action would be repetative or in excess of what is Biblical. Not everyone had the opportunity to address their issues in this manner. Those who have had that opportunity would simply be standing in solidarity with the others. If EVERYONE who had been wronged participated in this documentation, the outcome would be incredible - one way or another. It would remove every obstacle and every excuse. It would be placing the leadership between the rock and the hard place.

Having said that, I am available to serve in any way I am needed.

Further, an opinion - while I do not believe that leadership will change even one iota, this is a worthwhile action. It will lend tremendous credibility to the dissidents regardless of its efficacy.

I may be wrong, but I am sensing that the underlying fear is that somehow those who meet with the leadership could be deceived into accepting another manipulation as a sincere effort.

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Please post what happens when you go to the cult leaders.

I am overwhelmed that God used a discussion board on the internet to set so many people free from a terrible cult named GGWO. I am going to keep praying that more of the worker bees will get free from GGWO.

I loved what Brian, nonotone, said about his church life now. There are so many Christian churches that would greatly benefit from x GGWO members joining them.

GGWO began by intentionally using Jesus' precious message of redemption to take advantage of people. Carl Stevens groomed these men to do exactly as he did. You give GGWO leaders way to much credit if you think they care about anything other than themselves. God's Word is just a tool they use to further their own agendas. This is not a new development. GGWO was founded on deception.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Romans 13:8-10 (ESV)
Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. [9] The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." [10] Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Folks, this is a debt that never gets paid. Owe no man anything but to love one another. The one who loves his neighbor does no wrong to him. Love fulfills the law but there is always a debt to love another.

I have been in normal churches since 1988. I know what good evangelical, expository, Bible teaching sounds like. I know what it is like to be a dwarf standing on the shoulders of giants.

You will NEVER do in excess of what the Bible requires. Matthew 18 is a process that may take years, decades, longer. God's memory is long and covenantal. He has not put a statute of limitations on sin. If these folks are erring brethren, then treat them that way. If they are lost, then they need to hear the gospel.

I am not interested in participating in factnet as a sort of 'wailing wall' for broken folks who are content to sit around and bewail their condition and curse the past.

I did not see Sunday's service. I don't care how 'sincere' they sounded. I care what happens from this point forward.

If you can't bother to write out your grievances, what are you doing on here? People are reading! People inside are reading the doctrinal discussions! They are seeing biblical debate for the first time in their lives! It is not just Carl standing up and claiming 'thus saith the Lord.'

I said before that I did not come on here as a victim. I didn't think factnet could possibly be a help to me. Well...I have spent time on the phone with a good many of you. That has been an exceptional pleasure. It has been a delight. The Faucetts and the Dragos spent Thanksgiving together, both Mrss. got on really well--so did the kids, we had a great trip and a wonderful visit. If not for factnet, we would never have met--never roasted the turkey upside down, never had bean, cheese and bacon breakfast tacos together, never visited the Science Center with six kids in tow. What a blast. I am richer for having been on here, for getting to know so many and revisited friendships I thought were gone forever.

We will never lose by doing more. Nothing may come of it, as far as change inside GGWO is concerned. But I am better off now than I was in May when I started on here. I have been forced to study more, to learn how to express myself more competently, to deal with conflict that normally I would avoid. WE will be better for going forward with our stories, even if they just turned their backs and laughed.

I have emails from some of you that are months old. We began our relationships at odds with one another. Both Brian and Dave began their initial conversations with me in some degree of hostility, but we are friends now. We may still see things differently, but we are more sure of the Christ who bought us now more than ever.

Hey, it's tired and I'm late.

[minutus (minutus)]

"What a blast. I am richer for having been on here, for getting to know so many and revisited friendships I thought were gone forever."

Amen, Jim. The best thing that has happened here is that we are no longer separated by silence. Despite our differences and squabbles, we are learning how to share Christ with one another in a very real way and showing those still "in" what real life is possible outside the GGWO "box." It's not always neat and tidily wrapped up in a pretty package of bobble-headed agreement, but more people every day are joing the conversation and walking toward freedom. Our stories are important and each one has been used by God to help others.

Dave Carson

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Anon, Dave, Dave Carson Louise and Jim and so many others

I have learned so much from all of you and have come to love you for your wisdom and friendship and your spiritual fire... for the fire you have rekindled in me.

Amen to what you wrote Jim. I am in total agreement and pray only that I can add something to the effort.

Thanks for writing it...I was rather confused and discouraged earlier tonight and could only pray that the effort would not stop.

I can't write more just now, but thanks for putting my mind at ease. We cannot but continue in Isaiah 58 and Matthew 18 as repairers of the breach and restorers of paths to dwell in.

Good night.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I find it difficult to think of grievances against GG in personal terms. I feel them for others; my brother or son, the Herrings, John Gardner and his family, countless others. But God used the evil there for my own good, and I don't regret my involvement.

Feel free to take testimony from my postings. There is a kind of group grievance, I suppose; of which I am part. I take grievance in principal against the systematic subjection of individuality in Christ to the ends of certain individuals. Can you see it? The point is not what has been done against me or you; though those things should be addressed and rectified if possible. The point is that they have taken what is God's and misused it in His name. And they should be shaking in their collective boots; because He takes these things seriously. Ask Moses, who was a pretty good servant as servants go. One critical mistake cost him a lot. There have been many critical mistakes with GG and CHS.

I posted on the Where Did They Go thread on June 9th, at 6:37 pm about what happened in Lee. That is group grievance. Feel free to use it; and contact Gardners or Herrings if you want. As far as I know, they're both in the phone book. They were much more seriously and directly attacked than I ever was.

I'm willing to answer questions you may have, if I have answers. My email is bob.brinton@verizon.net

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Gotta go to work, but:

If this were my task, I would divide it in to two parts. The first would address complaints, and the second would address restitution. The second part I would save for later. This is so in the law.

I would use a Bibical outline of standards that I believed GGWO failed to uphold. Then I would briefly cite to people and situations to support the assertion. I would want to depend on volume rather than detail to make my point. The problem with describing individual stories is it will invite argument over the individual situations and obscure the point of systemic problems.

I would order these standards by first addressing those issues that affect the people who are there and then addressing issues regarding those who have left.

Finally, I would keep in mind that these people are only human. Humans are messy, stupid, duplicious, weak, ineffucient and cowardly. Hume had a point. They only have a capacity for so much. While I understand the idealism revealed in the posts on FACTnet, I think it is often very impractical. Some here want those in leadership at GGWO to become different people than what they are overnight. That's pretty rare. What really happens is that weak flawed people decide to do the right thing and then they struggle to do it, both failing and succeeding along the way. This demand for immediate perfection and clarity of thought is self-defeating. No one here has said that they changed over night. Everyone has said it took months or even years to change. Why are these people any different from you? Leaders stepping down until they get their stuff together may not be an option here. This is what you've got to work with, and you have to accept them as they are in order to be effective in helping them find their way.

Regarding restitution, while the harm occurred on an individual basis, I think it will be nearly impossible to obtain restitution in the same manner. I think restition should have an engross approach. In fact, if there is any success at GGWO with the first part, they should be able address this second part on their own.

[lee (lee)]

I've been wrestling since Sunday with many thoughts, emotions and memories, as well as a strong desire to know just what God thinks about what took place on the stage in Balt. I've had a simmering anger. I couldn't clearly define what it was coming from. It wasn't the past memories, although when I reiterate them, I can get embroiled once again in the insidiousness of the practices that come as a result of the system that is in place in GGWO. I have stopped the old thinking patterns......if they try to get back in, they are easily recognized for what they are and where they came from. I still feel strong emotions when I listen to someone I love very much tell me of a painful episode......so, where do I think the anger came from? I believe it was the Holy Spirit, showing me how God feels about this. My thoughts, as I prayed last night and finally woke up this morning after 2 nights of restlessness is this:

I do not see the elders as wayward children that finally have agreed to let in a little light. I see them as grown adult men who years ago received a sacred calling from God to serve Him and His Body. When I talk to Dave D or DAve C or Jim and many more, I sense these men take their calling seriously and there is a sense of sacredness to them. I was not only angry but disappointed, not because I expected repentance, but because by the elders attitude, words, demeanor and treatment of those listening, they showed no sacred fear before God. I was insulted that God was treated so glibly. I don't think the Holy Spirit is happy at all. I think he's grieving. It's different when a child does wrong and has to bang his/her head up against the wall of God. God's response is usually of kind compassion, some teaching, lots of guidance and careful watching. I think its altogether different when the recalcitrant one is an elder. One who has an honored position. One who is responsible to lead others.

I am not effected by the ridiculous words of a man raised up to be a pastor that believes he can freely speak out judgements on others, except to realize that he is a product of the system. A system that we want to expose and see removed. Territory taken back for the glory of God. This man is just parroting what he has been taught and what he has heard. He hasn't a clue as to who and what we are. He has been made blind by those above him.

I agree with Jeannie, that this is not over yet. I believe strongly that God not only will not overlook the insulting farce on Sunday morning, but he will discipline and correct those that planned and participated in it. I lacked the confidence to believe that until last night. Now, I have a settled conviction that this is serious business with God Almighty. Those elders took it to another level. God's people are too precious to Him, to speak to them as we were spoken to.

As for my part, I have decided to join you in writing out grievances and hope that it will show the elders what Jim wrote about this morning.....that we love them and we will keep on loving them. We may stumble, we may fall, we may fight, we may lag behind, we may disagree, but we are united in loving the brethren. As Jack has often said to me, we OWE the people of the church we were a part of, to tell them the truth and do everything we can, that God tells us to do, to love them.

I think Bruder5 is on to something for the future. I've talked to Karen and Jeannie and they want to and are involved in loving those that are out and seeing to the binding up of their wounds. I've talked to many that have said they are tired. I'm tired, I have no idea how I'm to get any work done. I've never spent so much time in front of a PC before!

This morning, I have fear for the elders. Especially those that have been around for a long time. I have fear for those that are not elders but work amongst the people and perpetuate the system. My pity is upon the poor confused people that don't know what to think or feel, or where to go because they are coming to realize that they have been lost for a long time.

We'll get to work as soon as we can. Tell us where and to whom to send the statement. We'll sign a docuemnt that will be presented and I hope, published for all to see.

[minutus (minutus)]

"I do not see the elders as wayward children that finally have agreed to let in a little light. I see them as grown adult men who years ago received a sacred calling from God to serve Him and His Body."

Precisely, Lee. While the TBS/GGWO system has many faults, the greatest by far is that gifted men and women are not sufficiently impressed with the seriousness of their calling nor are they sufficiently equipped and held to high standards by that system to fulfill the calling for the sake of the people of God. All that matters is loyalty to a man.

I have no doubt that most GGWO pastors are gifted and called for that purpose. The problems come from a false spirituality based on connection to CHS over the Word, the Spirit, integrity, and humility. So many end up as little Carls with no accountability in isolated little fiefdoms, facing the normal temptations of life alone, as well as the additional temptations of power. The system will be judged for wasting their lives.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

While reading Lee's post above, I was struck by something.

"to know just what God thinks about what took place on the STAGE in Balt." (Capital letters mine.)

Isn't that a big part of the mess that is GGWO? There isn't a pulpit, there's a STAGE! For performers, not men and women of God. No wonder there are so many standing ovations.

The Beatles took a lot of flack when John Lennon made the off-handed remark that the Beatles were more popular than God. Lennon didn't believe this, but it seemed plausible at the time.

Carl Stevens gets more applause than God. At GGWO, at least, Carl is more popular than God.

[veritas (veritas)]

Bingo, Boss. The Christian theater at it's best and most evil.

Veritas

[lee (lee)]

I have another consideration. When we write out stories, I don't really want to name names (as much as I would like to at times, it only serves to hurt) I believe from experience, that put into the wrong hands, it could be used against a person for great harm. Someone we all know, has made a masterful practice of doing that. Do we want to follow that? Do we want to put ammunition into the hands of those who have shown such a lack of integrity?

[aurora (aurora)]

I agree wholeheartedly with the comments made by Chris yesterday.

It is true: it is a dictatorship and, besides that, they don't care!!

Remember, these are folks who were at all the meetings this year- the"inquisition"- and actually participated in, time after time, unbiblical interrogations that destroyed long-time faithfuls and engaged in blackballing.

If they had no convictions then, why would they now? Remember, there are already dead bodies and debris all over the place there and they just ignore it.

This document will just be ignored too.
But maybe it could be published and distributed to current members.

I do want to say again that, for the most part, if a GGer isn't having crap done TO them then they will ignore the pain of others who are suffering (figuring they just aren't mature in Christ enough or maybe are reaping some necessary consequence of disobedience, etc).

What can we do, really, except just be available to encourage and support those who take the plunge to get out...

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"What can we do, really, except just be available to encourage and support those who take the plunge to get out..."

This is THE question, isn't it?

I have been pondering, praying, thinking about his very question since Sunday. The answer that continues to come to me is...we can continue to expose, reveal, and uncover the lies, corruption and danger these men respresent.

We can be heartened by the fact that we have helped to open the eyes of many already, that we are a force to be reckoned with as a group, and that God's desire is that those captivated and captive by these false doctrines, lies and manipulations of this place be free to love Him fully.

We can do all it is within our powwer to do as brothers and sisters of those who live under the lies. There are many means of accomplishing this that have not yet been attempted, not yet discovered.

Any document endorsed by us that is ignored can be distributed, made public etc...the avenues are many.

We can do much and more besides if we have the will to continue. Personally I am going to rejoice in the holidays with renewed hope and greet the new year with excitement for the potential it holds. Lenox looks like a Currier and Ives Christmas card this morning and I am going to soak it in and let God love me and renew His vision in me.

Blessings
(send me your address, anyone who'd like to exchange holiday cards this year)srfern@verizon.net

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

"to know just what God thinks about what took place on the STAGE in Balt." (Capital letters mine.) --Boss

Oh my Lord help me, help me please--THERE IS A POINT ON WHICH BOSS AND I AGREE (I am going to need therapy, where's the Boobah site?}

I remember watching the videos from the convention and Carl had Jim Morrison and some fellow from another country (Canada) doing a comedy act. I love comedy. I think Christians should have a sense of humor. Laughter is good medicine for the soul. Yada yada yada.

BUT--the fact that Carl has made organ grinder monkeys out of his powerless elder board and an "audience" out of his non-participating congregation speaks volumes. Congregations participate in WORSHIP, audiences watch events, plays, etc.

This is part of what I was talking about when Carl robbed the church of its biblical distinctives! No accountability to elders, deacons, or congregation.

Wind 'em up.

Baffle 'em with B.S.

Keep 'em happy.

Get 'em to fill the plate! (I remember Carl training us young guys how to take an offering--hilarious in the wrong sense indeed.)

This is NOT worship.

This is NOT how church is done, this is NOT how Christ is glorified!

People need to be un- or de- trained from being a docile and stupid AUDIENCE to being a powerful and participating CONGREGATION OF THE FAITHFUL IN CHRIST.

Remember all that talk on the anointing--three offices of Christ: Prophet, Priest and King? Apply that to worship! Christ speaks prophetically through HIS word and HE gets the glory. Pastors and teachers are not there to present unique never-before-heard incomprehensible psychobabble--they are there to give the SENSE of the SCRIPTURE!

Neh. 8:7-10 (ESV)
Also Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, the Levites, helped the people to understand the Law, while the people remained in their places. [8] They read from the book, from the Law of God, clearly, and <u>they gave the sense, so that the people understood the reading.</u> (Now that is real preaching!)
[9] And Nehemiah, who was the governor, and Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites who taught the people said to all the people, "This day is holy to the LORD your God; do not mourn or weep." For all the people wept as they heard the words of the Law.

(Holy Spirit conviction NOT Carl condemning people for this or that, see the result at Pentecost: Acts 2:37 (ESV)
Now when they heard this they were <u>cut to the heart</u>, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?")


Neh. 8:[10] Then he said to them, "Go your way. <u>Eat the fat</u> and <u>drink sweet wine</u> and send portions to anyone who has nothing ready, for this day is holy to our Lord. And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength."

See that "fat" thing again? That is the "anointing" on the HEARER!!! You hear the Word and YOU benefit. Not because there was anything special about the nature of the speaker, but because of the ONE whose Word it was!

Liturgies proclaim after the reading of the Scriptures:

Reader: "Here endeth the lesson. This is the Gospel of Christ! (or the Word of God)"

Congregation: (Participating in response) "Thanks be to God!" (or "to you Lord Christ", depending on which liturgy)

Congregational and pastoral prayers offered are the priestly function, as well as the communion service.

What about the Kingly office? At the end of our service there is a benediction like this one:

"Hebrews 13:20-21 (ESV)
Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, [21] equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen."

Then this admonition: "Go in peace to love and serve the Lord. Alleluia, alleluia!"

Not all churches have to worship the same, THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE, but there is a HUGE difference between an audience watching performers on a STAGE and a congregation which participates in worshipping a risen Savior.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Yes, indeed. Well done, Jim.

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

1. I too have been challenged and ultimately blessed by the discussion board. I 'stumbled' across the board by doing a Google search. I was horrified at first. I see now that God in His Sovereignty had a plan for me in this discussion. Initially, I read for two months without posting. During that time, I talked to Neil and Jack &amp; Lee and then Jim. I posted originally as "Just Thinking" and then when I was comfortable I made myself vulnerable by sharing my identity. I believe that in doing so it creates credibility and accountability to the forum.

2. Through this, Jim and I have become good friends. We are hoping to celebrate Thanksgiving together every year. Through this board I have learned to have a genuine compassion for those who are hurt by pastors. Through this, I am learning to really VALUE the flock God has placed in my care. I see the eternal importance of my role. It humbles me.

3. Also, as a result of this board I have rigorously reviewed my doctrine and role as a pastor. I am challenged to study and pray more. I am challenged to know Scriptures and church life in a deeper and practical way. I have spoken to many current and former members. I have made friends in and outside of GGWO. I am extremely thankful for this. It is helping me to grow and encourage the congregation I serve to do the same.

4. We cannot undue the past. Neither can we excuse it or write it off. However, we can begin to grasp what happened and learn from the experience. By visiting the past and planning in the present we can contribute to the future of both individuals and GGWO in a positive and constructive way. Wouldn't it be great to look back at some time and say, ‘WOW...this was really a God-thing’?

5. Wouldn't it be great if God uses frail sinners saved by grace on both sides of the aisle to help out? We are in need of some creativity. We are in need of a can-do, let’s role attitude. We are in need of patience. I am reminded today that we ALL can make a difference on both sides of the aisle. Note, how the author of Hebrews said this same thing almost 2,000 years ago:

“Let's do it--full of belief, confident that we're presentable inside and out. 23 Lets keep a firm grip on the promises that keep us going. He always keeps his word. 24 Let's see how inventive we can be in encouraging love and helping out, 25 not avoiding worshiping together as some do but spurring each other on, especially as we see the big Day approaching. 26If we give up and turn our backs on all we've learned, all we've been given, all the truth we now know, we repudiate Christ's sacrifice.” (Hebrews 10:22-26 The Message)

6. I am willing to help out in anyway I can to bring repentance, reconciliation, restitution, renewal and hope to all parties concerned. I still believe that God will cause this to happen. I will continue until Christ returns to believe that God is able to do this. Or, I will breathe my final breathe on this side of Jordan’s stormy banks praying the same. Regardless of the outcome, I will continue to gaze longingly with the eyes of faith into the Shadows of our Blessed Savior’s Promised Land… the Land that is fairer than day, which by faith we can ALL see the invisible and cleave to the promise that He is preparing our new home for ALL His elect from before time began.

7. Yes, I will continue to raise my Ebenezer and cry out to the God of my strength for one more day of patience…Yes, with God on my side I will continue to offer any help that I can bring alongside ALL the true friends of Jesus Christ.

1Companions as we are in this work with you, we beg you, please don't squander one bit of this marvelous life God has given us. 2God reminds us, I heard your call in the nick of time; The day you needed me, I was there to help. Well, now is the right time to listen, the day to be helped. 3Don't put it off; don't frustrate God's work by showing up late, throwing a question mark over everything we're doing. 4Our work as God's servants gets validated--or not--in the details. People are watching us as we stay at our post, alertly, unswervingly . . . in hard times, tough times, bad times; 5when we're beaten up, jailed, and mobbed; working hard, working late, working without eating; 6with pure heart, clear head, steady hand; in gentleness, holiness, and honest love; 7when we're telling the truth, and when God's showing his power; when we're doing our best setting things right; 8when we're praised, and when we're blamed; slandered, and honored; true to our word, though distrusted; 9ignored by the world, but recognized by God; terrifically alive, though rumored to be dead; beaten within an inch of our lives, but refusing to die; 10immersed in tears, yet always filled with deep joy; living on handouts, yet enriching many; having nothing, having it all. (2 Corinthians 6:1-9, The Message)

For Him,
Dave

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Jim wrote:
"Oh my Lord help me, help me please--THERE IS A POINT ON WHICH BOSS AND I AGREE (I am going to need therapy, where's the Boobah site?}"

Go to your happy place, Jim! Go to your happy place!

[yogi (yogi)]

GGWO pulpit likened to the Greek Comedy &amp; Tragedy... an excellent metaphor!

"Comedy" = laughter at inappropriate times i.e., during prayer, stupid jokes by Stevens which shatter any possibility of an anointing in GG...

"Tragedy" = blind believers in the "players" of this peculiar "drama." [Don't you people in GGWO WANT peace WITHOUT politics?]

Yogi

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

I will be available to speak to anyone who wants to consider putting together a statement based on the above suggestions by phone or email.

By phone after 8pm EASTERN/ 9pm Central until 1am Eastern/Midnight Central
<font color="0000ff">210-602-0213</font>

By email:
somebonus@yahoo.com

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I emailed you a personal statement in the form you stated above, Jim, in case individual incidents/testimonies/complaints are being collected.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Our friend Arguendo put this forward:
<font color="0000ff">"If this were my task, I would divide it in to two parts. The first would address complaints, and the second would address restitution. The second part I would save for later. This is so in the law.

I would use a Bibical outline of standards that I believed GGWO failed to uphold. Then I would briefly cite to people and situations to support the assertion. I would want to depend on volume rather than detail to make my point. The problem with describing individual stories is it will invite argument over the individual situations and obscure the point of systemic problems.

I would order these standards by first addressing those issues that affect the people who are there and then addressing issues regarding those who have left.

Finally, I would keep in mind that these people are only human."</font>

I think if we look at what she says here and add it to the outline presented above we have a way forward that is fairly coherent:


<font color="0000ff">"The first would address complaints"</font>

How do you know if you have a complaint or "something against a brother?" Sins can be looked at in a variety of ways biblically:

There are sins of thought, word and deed.

There are sins we commit and sins because we omitted.

There is the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life.

Sins are transgressions against the law of God or want of conformity to it. While we are human, and we all fail--we have the provision of repentance given to us to restore us to fellowship with God and man. We are forever indebted to owe no man anything but to love one another thereby fulfilling the law. So sin at its heart, when it is against a brother is a failure to love--a failure to love both God and man alike.

<font color="0000ff">I would use a Bibical outline of standards that I believed GGWO failed to uphold. Then I would briefly cite to people and situations to support the assertion.</font>

A Biblical outline of standards? Exactly. Think about it, there is only this: We are commanded to love God with all our hearts, souls, minds and strength and our neighbor as ourselves, right? These are two categories: God and then Neighbor. There are two tables of the law of God, containing four and then six commandments. The second table of the law directs us how it is we are to love our brother and shows us also how we fail to do so. Consider:

The Fifth Commandment deals with authority in the church and the abuse of it. This is CATEGORY ONE:
You shall honor your father and mother. The opposite is also a command--show no disrespect for your father and mother. They are our earliest and first 'neighbors' and are our first introduction to authority which must be obeyed. So contained in this commandment is the command to obey those in authority over us in the world, whether at home, in church or in the world.

Has there been sin against authority here?

The other side of this commandment is understood in the Old Testament and proclaimed along with it in the New:

Ephes. 6:4 (ESV)
Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.
Deut. 6:7 (ESV)
You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.

Children are commanded to honor and obey their parents and parents are commanded to teach their children what God has commanded and not to exasperate them. This commandment extends to all human authority. For the civil magistrate see Romans 13, for the church see these:

1 Tim. 5:17-21 (ESV)
Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. [18] For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages." [19] Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. [20] As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. [21] In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.

Hebrews 13:7 (ESV)
Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith.

Hebrews 13:17 (ESV)
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.


Erring church members can cause division and schism. Erring leaders can teach aberrant and heretical doctrine.

So category one would be:

What doctrines has Carl Stevens taught that are in error, how were you exasperated by that doctrine, what effect did it have and how were you harmed?

Considering yourself in the light of Galatians 6:1-5, were you in any way at fault yourself? Did you by your example, words or actions contribute to the problem?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

This is different then from the question "What practices did Carl Stevens disply that were in error, how did it cause you to stumble, and has there been a lasting effect from which you still suffer?"

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Arguendo said:
<font color="0000ff">I would use a Bibical outline of standards that I believed GGWO failed to uphold. Then I would briefly cite to people and situations to support the assertion. I would want to depend on volume rather than detail to make my point. <u>The problem with describing individual stories is it will invite argument over the individual situations and obscure the point of systemic problems.</u></font>

Systemic problems in GG relate to violations of Scripture in word and deed toward brothers and sisters in Christ. The elders have invited comment, especially if they have acted in any way unbiblically. We have shown in the first category how to outline harmful doctrines that were taught, that trust was demanded because of authority claimed from God--then that authority was abused. This violates the command to parents (and through them, pastors) not to exasperate their children.

The next category has to do with the Sixth commandment:

Category Two:You Shall Not Murder--Violations of Slander, Maligning, and Defaming the Reputations of those who have chosen to leave, Not protecting the reputations or lives of those who have left.
Matthew 5:21-22 (ESV)
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' [22] But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

A person's reputation is his or her life, or it can be a means of making a living. To defame is to rob a person of those means of finding comfort and security. Defamation, maligning or slander may cost a person friends and relationships that have been built over many years.

Were you marked or defamed in or out of GGWO? Did you lose friends, relationships or was your reputation or good name harmed because of the words of leaders inside GGWO?

Considering yourself in the light of Gal.6:1-5, have your own words harmed anyone? Have you turned from this and asked forgiveness of the one you hurt?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

RJ, I guess if it was an abuse of authority it would not be different.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

<font color="0000ff">Arguendo said:
I would use a Bibical outline of standards that I believed GGWO failed to uphold.</font>

Category Three falls under the Seventh Commandment: You Shall Not Commit Adultery. Has your marriage or family relationship been attacked or destroyed by anyone inside GG, has anyone inside GG taught or advocated that loyalty to Carl Stevens was greater than loyalty to spouse to the detriment of your marriage and family?

Matthew 19:6 (ESV)
So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."

The command not to commit adultery presumes the advocacy of the church in protecting and furthering faithfulness in the marriages and families in the congregation by its pastors and teachers.

Was your marriage harmed as a direct result of the actions or words of any leader inside GGWO? Did your marriage suffer, were you defrauded or abandoned by a spouse, did you go through a divorce, lose access to children or the comfort and security of your home because of anyone inside GG?

Considering yourself in the light of Galatians 6:1ff did you contribute to the breakdown of your marriage/family by any of your own actions?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Thanks Jim...btw, this is a very balanced approach and I can only pray that people will participate.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

<font color="0000ff">A Bibical outline of standards that I believed GGWO failed to uphold...</font>

Category Four is determined by the Eighth Commandment: You Shall Not Steal. Have you suffered loss of property, profit, productivity or ability to make a living because of the actions of the leadership inside GGWO?

Ephes. 4:28 (ESV)
Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.

Did you give money, property, goods, services, labor, possessions that you were told would be used for one purpose and then were used for another? Were you cajoled to give money under false pretenses? Were you prevented from making a living in an honest manner? Did you suffer loss of property or productivity because of the action or words (including promises)of anyone inside GGWO?

Considering yourself in the light of Galatians 6:1ff, have you diligently applied yourself to working with all your might with the gifts given you by God to support yourself and your family?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

<font color="0000ff">A Bibical outline of standards that I believed GGWO failed to uphold...</font>

Category Five is determined by the Ninth Commandment: You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Have you been lied to, have facts been knowingly misrepresented to you, has information that would have been necessary to your welfare been kept from you, have half-truths been represented as whole truths?


Ephes. 4:29-32 (ESV)
Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. [30] And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. [31] Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. [32] Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Have you been lied about, or do you know if another has been lied to or about?

Have you considered yourself in the light of Gal.6:1ff, Are you known for speaking the truth in love--as a lover of truth? Have you turned from ill-speaking of others? Are you determined to depart from deception yourself?

A note on the Tenth Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Covet:

Covetousness is a sin of thought, and we are not heartreaders, but covetousness provides motive for other sin. If I am jealous of you and covet what you have, then I am proving that I am not happy with with what God has provided to me.

1 Tim. 6:6-10 (ESV)
Now there is great gain in godliness with contentment, [7] for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. [8] But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content. [9] But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. [10] For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

Have we considered ourselves in the light of Gal.6:1ff, that our motives are for restoration, restitution and reconciliation and not destruction?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

So there is a Biblical Outline of Standards under which can be organized anything that might constitute a complaint against GGWO. The Outline deals with systemic problems so that obscuring does not occur by focusing on the details of individual situations. Situations are presented under each heading to show that problems in general areas of ministry and doctrine exist.

If you are unsure which categories your story falls under, write it anyway--let us fit it into the right category.

Anon the Brief has said that she will compile all the statements. Perhaps she could post an email address for all and sundry?

[sad_u_see (sad_u_see)]

Jim and others...I briefly looked at this thread. I would have to say that this one is the most productive and objective one I have seen. I am hoping that this will be rectafied by the "one voice" of the many that are seeing and believing the best. Yes CHS is unaccoutable and has been. But I think seeing God in this ministry act beautifully for the past 25 years. I'm not going to quit on this ministry yet. I have seen His presence and work in many people. But it's time for a change. the paradign is shifting towards a much more sound and accoutable one. Accusations and bull S%$$ is nothing of any interest to me. But that this one thread has some great suggestions and insight. I hate when the call Dr. Lewis...what they say ect. But reality is...this ministry is at a point of great change. CHS is not in control anymore even if they say so. He's not. And they know it too. P. Paul knows it too. despite his failure that cost him his ministry. Meanwhile we still seek His face and feed the flock FW doctrine. Not CHS doctrine...which we never did anyway.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

AnonBrief@yahoo.com

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

I will be available to speak to anyone who wants to consider putting together a statement based on the above suggestions by phone or email.

By phone after 8pm EASTERN/ 9pm Central until 1am Eastern/Midnight Central
210-602-0213

By email:
somebonus@yahoo.com

[sam_i_am (sam_i_am)]

Thanks Jim for all your input. That letter of grievances seems like a good idea. Let me know how I can help.

Oh, and I too know what it is to be in a normal church - mine!

Lee,
I don´t know why you're still carping and sniping at me, and now my wife! We don´t know Jack whoever, and believe me, you do not occupy so great a place in our life that we need to go about like a busybody informing people I don´t know about things that I don´t care about. We do not wish you and Jack any harm, only blessings and prosperity in everything.

We have a life - a great church, a rehab house for addicts, a christian school, a network of marriage groups, a youth ministry that goes into public schools to minister, a network of pastors and churches from many denominations and affiliations. Next week I speak in a Southern Baptist church and a Vineyard church. We will start in January monthly all-night meetings for churches in southern Mexico City for all night prayer, fasting and communion. I will meet with Bert Waggoner this week to discuss strategy for inner cities. We (the local Vineyad pastor and I) are organizing a pastor's conference for the healing a leaders and their families in March.

Factnet is getting played out. No bones left to pick on. Pastor Stevens is basically out, the church is starting a long process of healing, reform and repentance. I will be there with them cheering them on in this process. Some of you on Factnet have been helpful, honest, and operated in Christian love. Everybody else, please go get a life.

[sad_u_see (sad_u_see)]

Sam_I_Sam;

Toooch-ay as they say. I love your heart attitude. I have always seen it this way. You and your wife walk with such great integrity and thank you for being a solid and edifying voice here on trash.net..ooops factnet. I too believe that the change is coming and that nothing is going to stop it. The works are in process as I type. There is only a "few" that resist..but will by the Grace of God Get It.

Great statement...factnet is getting played out. Pastor is almost out. There was a great pitcher for Texas. Nolan Ryans. He decided to pitch one more time. But his arm popped out. He had to be helped off the field. Unfortunitely The leadership took Pastors life and destroyed it. They allowed him to speak when he shouldn't of. They didn't stand in truth they were living in their borrowed credibility. Not theirs. They lost theirs, actually never had any. Credibility is earned not passed down. You sir have credibility and we have seen it all these years.

formengeorge@yahoo.com

[lee (lee)]

Hey Bruce, I apologize to you and Robin for sniping and carping about you. I know you don't know my friend Jack. You do however know the pastor that talked to him about us and warned him of our evilness. I also stated that I did'nt know who told him about our vile reputation in GGWO. But, Bruce, you are right, I reacted to the hurt that was inflicted on my friend Jack and his wife Polly. I reacted to the tangled up mess of this slanderous, maligning that never seems to stop coming from GGWO. You have always been faithful to inform us of the people that malign us and to tell us that you always tell them that you are still our friend. Thanks though for setting me straight. Now I know that you don't take much time thinking about us.
Thanks for sharing with us all, all that you have and all that you do. You have accomplished much.
I look forward to the prosperity that you have asked God to give us.

[isabella (isabella)]

The leaders of this CULT are not going to stop until they stop! They know what they are doing and they know what they have done. They are the only ones who can stop it. They will not. Read their statement again. 'We believe you deserve transparency, honesty and our commitment to this church. we apologize with regard to the above issues. IF we have sinned, we ask for your forgiveness. We acknowledge mususe of words. We HOPE our tongues will be used to edify!'
The old man is done..he has taught them well. Nothing can grow out of their rotten roots except death and destruction. The only thing we can do is warn the people to get out of there before they are eaten alive by these bastards.

[lee (lee)]

Isabella, You have me curious as to your identity. I suppose you are sure I don't know you. You brought back pleasant memories of our time with the Dorsey's. That choir was something else! Debbie is still my bestest dearest friend!

[isabella (isabella)]

Dear Lee,
I'm pretty sure you don't know me. I don't really know you either except from a distance and of course here on factnet. I have a a great deal of respect for you two especially after reading your posts on here. It doesn't take a Bible expert to know the simple truth. You and I know the truth about this because we saw what they did and we can see right here on this board what they are still doing. Sam and Sad know it too. It is obvious to me that they are not going to stop either. May God help the people they are ministering to, especially the disenfranchised, the lonely, the drug addicts, the people in the marriage groups, the youth in the public schools, the children in their own schools and even the other ministers working with them. They don't know what they're in for. The only thing we can do is try to warn them and hope that they will see through to the real motives of these evil men.
Isabella

[yogi (yogi)]

sad_u_see aka Scott Robinson!

Yogi

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

yogi, we are thinking alike here...it sounds like him to me as well.

[yogi (yogi)]

...or maybe it's the guy who always bought "fundraiser seats" at Camden Yards...George something...can't remember his last name! His e-mail and use of the baseball analogy brought his name, first name that is, to mind! Whoever it is they are a two-faced, wishy-washy cuz they've sure changed their tune from previous posts!

Yogi

[jeannie (jeannie)]

For all you dear ex-military guys on FN:

A friend sent this to me and saw the parallel in our dissident movement... But I thought of all of "youz guyz" too!

“Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”

-George Orwell (with a nod to the Mudville Gazette)

There’s a character trait that’s decided by fate
Comes (sadly) to many, far too faint, far too late.
They won’t face the aggressor, stand up to his ire
They have not the will to fight his fire with fire.
So they bend over backwards to see all sides as fair,
Till they’re faced with dragon breath fire in their hair.
Like our brethren in France, who’d know better than we,
Yet seem never to learn, seem doomed never to see.

Yes, it seems there are some who’re determined by fate,
To possess not the courage to step up to the plate,
Who shrink from all threat because nothing’s worth war.
But how can they know lest they’ve been there before?
Thank God some have courage, the will, yes, the grace,
To stand for the shirkers, stand strong in their place.
Thank God we have stalwarts who’ll stand for us all,
Who will rise to the challenge at their nation’s call.

The faint-hearted, who fear, whose reaction is flight,
Have no comprehension of those who will fight.
To hide their own trepidation they attempt to demean
The rough men, who defend them, as barbaric, obscene.
Yet these rough men stand ready, hard weapons to hand,
To put placaters behind them, draw a line in the sand,
To preserve for the peaceniks what they won’t defend,
So their own unearned freedom won’t perish, won’t end.

To appeasers, rough men are coarse government tools.
To rough men, appeasers are dumb delusional fools.

Russ Vaughn
2d Bn, 327th Parachute Infantry Regiment
101st Airborne Division
Vietnam 65-66

[sad_u_see (sad_u_see)]

Yogi...aka Pastor "R"...not a chance, if I only could be that fortunate.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[yogi (yogi)]

OH PLEZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ SPARE ME!

"burp"http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lame.gif

Yogi

[sad_u_see (sad_u_see)]

Nor am I Georgie Hayes...but whatever as my teen daughter would say..."WhatEver".

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

We sin if we do not love our neighbor.

We sin if we do not love those that despitefully use us.

We sin if we walk past the poor wounded man on the road and do nothing to help him.

We sin if we are the praying publican, full of self righteousness because we proclaim to live in truth, and yet do nothing to rescue the man caught in sin.

"And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."John 17:19

"For their sakes".

The elders are not living in anything but sin. We have seen the truth and are free. The GG church is the wounded man on the road, we are the Samaritan. What shall we do? Turn away in self righteousness and let them bleed out and be not restored?

We have been given hope and freedom. But what does one now do with this truth?

When we were born again we were giddy and thrilled and we came to understand that those around us were not so free in Christ as we ...remember that first new feeling? We wanted to shout it from the rooftops and tell everyone the Good News.

Now as blessed believers we have been set free from a doctrinal bondage by GOD'S GRACE ALONE. It was His Grace that freed our hearts to hear him. Our fellow brothers and sisters, including the elders and leaders, are living in blindness and sin, they are in horrible bondage.

Will we make the effort? Will we sacrifice for them as Christ sacrificed for us? Will we sit back nursing wounds and secret thoughts of vengeance and hate? Will we cave in to satanic apathy and let this new opportunity pass...this opportunity to actually act?

After the 12 were given the Holy Spirit at the Pentecost, they sought out the people who needed the truth...that's why they call it The Acts of The Apostles folks. They were motivated by the truth, by the Lord, by grace, by true love for the people and God. They acted!

One more voice, one more sound of truth, one more chance to set the captives free. How can we not do this? How can we not try? How can we call ourselves Christians and not attempt the impossible?

Have you stopped believing in God's miracles? We are at the time of year when we celebrate the arrival of His Gift to us...the miracle of a babe, lying in a manger, wrapped in burial cloths, worshiped by kings and shepherds...we believe this holy miracle because our hearts know that God so loved us that...

But how much do we love today? How many miracles are we willing to participate in in 2004? How is it that perhaps we believe in past miracles and
not in those that can be manifest today?

I believe in today's miracles every bit as much as I believe in the miracle of salvation. Don't you? Why not? If God so loved then, he still does today. He loves the people at GG, remember? He so loved that he gave...what will you give?

The Magi followed the star for miles, they brought riches, because they believed. The poor brought what they had, because they believed. You are Christians because you...believe?

What exactly do you believe, my brother? What is it you believe my sisters? Do you believe that God blesses those who do right in His Name? Then come be blessed. Participate in this document...give over the anger, pain, conviction, belief you have to this effort. We may in this life never see the fulfillment of it's purpose, but that doesn't mean it is not part of a miracle in the making.

For God so loved...he gave. Please give what you can to our effort to address GGWO? It is a gift you will give this Christmas that may reverberate in Heaven for eternity.I believe this. I believe in the miracle that is His Grace.

Don't you?

[boddah (boddah)]

anon-brief:
"I would use a Bibical outline of standards that I believed GGWO failed to uphold. Then I would briefly cite to people and situations to support the assertion. I would want to depend on volume rather than detail to make my point. The problem with describing individual stories is it will invite argument over the individual situations and obscure the point of systemic problems."


i agree with jeannie. ordinarily, i'd be all for bringing in anecdotal evidence to keep the discussion from becoming an abstract doctrinal argument. but some of us are feeling the pain more than others at this point, and we really need some distance to feel safe.
it's fine for the soldiers among us to do their thing, but please don't expect people plaugued by the effects of trauma to put on a nice suit and go marching into that place.

that has nothing to do with giving up, being a quitter, not fulfulling the potential of factnet.
that's survival.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

So...the concensus is then that you all will do nothing?

Painful, damned right it is painful to speak up, address the wrongs, face the bastards and do the right thing.

You all are Christians...was it less painful for Christ to give up his blood for you? What is this lack of faith, lack of courage, lack of love, lack of conviction that stops you from doing the right thing?

Jim has spent time, effort and study on this proposal to confront GGWO in a biblical way. It is the only path that makes sense, because it is a win/win situation. Can't you all see?

If they reject it...we win! We have proof that we did a biblical thing and they rejected it. If they do not reject it, we win...for there is no way they can wiggle out of it...Jim is tough enough to hold their feet to the fire.

So what is it going to be, folks? More sitting around typing and kvetching on FactNet? More **** and moan without the courage of your convictions?

Don't give me this "I am wounded" stuff either. Was Jesus' wounds worse than yours? Is His grace that saved you from hell insufficient for you? Have you no sense of gratitude? Have you no understanding that your words are just that unless you're willing to back them up?

You have denounced Dave Drago's efforts while you yourselves sit back and lick your wounds. Come on. Get real. There is precious little time left in this window of opportunity.

Action is necessary. This avenue is biblical, and you have an advocate like Jim to make it work. Why do you persist upon sitting around and doing nothing when the machinery is in place to do something bold?

Jesus' blood not enough for you?

Hate me, swear at me, get off your asses and throw things...something! Anything! But talk is cheap, and you are making a mockery of all He died for if you do not mobilize in some way to stop these awful men from continuing on with their cult unabated. It is sin, your sin if you do not partake of the opportunities to make them stop, don't you see?

Flame me all you like...I am used to it. Your words mean very little anymore, now that I see you are willing that those at GGWO should perish.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Well...no answers?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

No one?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

.

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

(crickets chirping)

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

So...I gather you are happy to sit on your can and NOT participate? Just curious "bells".

If you do not plan to participate I am asking you why.

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

You don't know what I am or am not doing, so shut up...and I return with some questions of my own RJ....YOU have said that everyone from GG is not qualified to preach.. YOU have said "why approach the elders to make changes?"... BUT NOW... a-hemm.."hey, RAH!! let's work with these men!" Sounds like a double standard and it smells like hypocrisy, RJ. Have you forgotten how have (and continue to) arrogantly lie?? Let's just give them a pass and work with them? You can't have it both ways, RJ. THERE HAS BEEN NO REPENTANCE YET. We have nothing to say to them......

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

No, I do not know if you are participating or not. I will answer your questions, no problem. I believe that unless we address these men biblically (and they likely will NOT admit to anything) we can have right on our side in that at least we tried to address the problems in an unquestionable biblical way. We will have clean hands, having approached them biblically. You know and I know they are not likely to play ball...but don't you see that even if they do NOT, it is a score for us. If they repent, it is a score for us. Either way, we win.

I am not in favor of believing the elders, I am only trying to advocate the way Jim has paved to try to gain the most leverage.

I am not a hypocrite because I see something designed to work and advocate for it. At least it beats sitting around doing nothing constructive. Bitching doesn't seem to be getting anything accomplished.

Or am I decieved that we wanted something real to happen here? If you (collectively) plan to wait to move once the elders repent, you may as well have stayed in the cult, for it won't happen.

If they will not deal with the real complaints from the hundreds who could make a real complaint, what great publicity that is for the dissidents. And if they pretend to play ball and start to jerk us around what better spiritual pit bull can you think of than Jim F to hold their feet to the fire?

So..."there has been no repentence yet so we have nothing to say to them"? Then they have already won and you all will just have to sit and watch them continue in sin doing nothing to free your brothers and sisters who remain trapped.

THAT is worse than any supposed hypocrasy...that is as wrong as the elders are. No good samaritans here? No one willing to die to their ego to attempt the hail mary pass...oh well.

How disappointing, and how happy you have made the elders...they will wait until doomsday and more people will spiritually perish.

Flame away, for it changes nothing.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Sorry Jim...I have done my best to encourage the people to participate. Seems I may not be the best person for this, for they seem not to believbe me or trust me at all. So, Jim. I think it is time for you to explain this one last time. I for one am frustrated with all of this. I must not be finding the words to express what seems very clear and straightforward to me.

Please forgive me Jim...I did what I could, but it just isn't enough I guess. I still believe in your plan.

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Roberta,
I agree with you. I think Jim's plan is outstanding. If you have a story please mail it to him. Review his outline and write it. If you can't write well then call him and he can help you.

For Him,
Dave

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Jim has my story and the outline was invaluable toward puting it in some context.

Please folks...contact Jim? This may be our one good chance of making a difference.

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

AUGH.. you're killin' me! What a trio! Maybe you haven't realized that many of us in Balto. are no longer pressed to approach the elders AGAIN.. (many of us have done it individually all along.. to no avail)We are alarmed at the concept of handing over our written grievances to JIM... who is working with DRAGO, who is in open and trusting correspondence with MARR! AAAAAAAA!
And YOU, RJ.. you just can't have it BOTH ways... demanding that we trust Jim, Dave and you when you are collaborating with dishonest men WHO HAVE HURT US AND WOULD DO IT AGAIN TO KEEP THEIR LITTLE KINGDOM ALIVE...
Sure, go ahead... "contact Jim and make a difference!" Marr will applaud your efforts.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

You do not understand a few things, I am sad to say.

1.Dave Drago is NOT collaborating with Marr.
It does no harm to understand where the enemy is "coming from" you know. Reconnoiter is always a good tactic before launching an operation...ever consider THAT possibility? Hmmmmm?

2.You have totally misunderstood the quantitative as a opposed to qualitative means that are to be employed with the information. Conveinently or on purpose so as to confuse people? Hmmmm?

3.No one is trusting the elders and that is not at all what this exercise is about. Many have gone individually, you say. How about using the power of numbers?

You don't have to convince anyone how this cult has hurt people. Long before this elders committee was formed, TSB/GGWO were employing the same methods. I know we cannot convince any of you that we have seen this senario happen before but we have.

You can demonize Dave, Jim and I all you like. It makes no difference. As long as you let them, the elders will continue. They will never repent of a damned thing and everyone knows it. Time is on their side. Wait them out...go ahead. They win. By refusing to pressure them, they have only to wait you out. They have more power than you do. Those with loved ones still in will have to watch and see nothing change.

By doing nothing collectively, nothing changes.

Sounds to me like YOU might be working for the elders...for methink thou dost protest far too much. It would serve Marr's purpose to have you sew discord too. Hmmmmm.....interesting.

So, Marr has convinced everyone to wait for a repentance that will never come....he has done well and you have played right into his hands.

So wait. Hell will freeze over before repenting will be offered without pressure. Wait...I dare you.

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Luke 9:49 And John answered and said, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said onto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Luke 9:54 And when the disciples James and John saw this (vs 53 they did not receive him", they said Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Matthew 51: And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, "Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels."

And finally one of my favorite verses in the Word of God... the one that reminds me so much that I am as thickheaded and stubborn as Peter...
After Christ 3 times said Lovest thou me? he still asked the Lord...

John 21:21 Peter seeing him (the disciple whom Jesus loved) saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Just some thoughts.}

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Those are familiar verses Carl always used too at times like this.

Interesting.

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Methinks that if we throw out all the verses Pastor Stevens preached to us RJ, we would be left without any Word of God at all. hehehe.

The Word of God is true, even if the vessel that preaches on it is not. Calvary Chapel preaches on these too... I wonder if they should stop... : )

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

You know that is not what I meant...no need to try to be clever here.

Carl misused those verses to cover up his sin and to shore up his false teachings about not touching God's annointed so he could get away with crimes against God and the congregation. The word of God can be twisted, misused, wrongly applied etc, and we all know that..."hehehe"?

Sorry, I don't think it is funny. If CC miuses the word, and I don't say they do...but if they did, no matter the vessel THEY would be better off with a millstone tied around their neck and thrown into the deepest part of the sea than they mislead on of God's little ones. Carl teaches lies, mislead the congregation and was an adulterer, whoremonger, greedy snake and more, and unless you choose to be blind you know it.

Carl uses the word to mislead. Period. THAT is his sin, that is why the people need to be retaught and THAT is why this is more than a slightly off church.

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

... and yet, we should go back to them to negotiate...... now THAT is interesting.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Who said anything about "negotiate"?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

It is called "accountability" It is called "getting it on the record". It is called "we win if they repent and change, we win if they don't because it was biblically done and they refused".

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on December 29, 2004)

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

It's called "bold biblical confrontation with the weight of numbers where there is no wiggle room as their feet are held firmly to the fire."

[british_sponge_bob (british_sponge_bob)]

WAY TO GO BELLs!!

This is the best post on this thread!!
Let me post it here again for everybody:

Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 -

AUGH.. you're killin' me! What a trio! Maybe you haven't realized that many of us in Balto. are no longer pressed to approach the elders AGAIN.. (many of us have done it individually all along.. to no avail)We are alarmed at the concept of handing over our written grievances to JIM... who is working with DRAGO, who is in open and trusting correspondence with MARR! AAAAAAAA!
And YOU, RJ.. you just can't have it BOTH ways... demanding that we trust Jim, Dave and you when you are collaborating with dishonest men WHO HAVE HURT US AND WOULD DO IT AGAIN TOO.
Sure, go ahead... "contact Jim and make a difference!" Marr will applaud your efforts.

RJ you don't know diddly squat as to who cooroborates with whom. Drago posted he is now a friend to Marr. Doesn't that raise a flag at all or is your brain so filled with yourself you can't see ****??? And you trust these people?
You want us to bear our souls and "tell" our TBS/GGWO stories? For whose glory, RJ...yours?
To fill your inflated ego that is just waiting revenge? Let God be your defense. You people are nuts if you think taking a stand and confronting the elders is going to do a damn bit of good. It will provoke laughter from the whole lot, most likely Schaller rather than Marr. And you want Jim and Dave to go to Baltimore to confront all the elders at the same time? Don't you know they will have a prepared response. Schaller just gives a damn about himself. Marr must have a lot better qualities than you give the man credit for, Drago has befriended him and I'm sure he's discerning something decent about the man character-wise or he wouldn't waste his time. Me? I trust nobody. None of those elders.
AAnd I don't have to write my saga of what these men did to me and my family over the years, its just giving them more stuff to shove under the rug. That carpet has to be worn out by now.

Stop pressuring people RJ. If they want to tell their stories let them but quit pushing yourself on people it only turns them off from you. Go play in traffic for awhile. Take the other hypocrites on here with ya like Boss Martian and Bruder5. Let the rest of us do what we feel we are to do before God. Last I looked He is the one who is supposed to be giving orders. His book doesn't state otherwise.

B.G.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

british sponge bob,

Please explain why I'm a hypocrite.

Thanks.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

It was my understanding that people that wanted to include their experiences with GGWO/TBS in the outline were to contact JF or AB directly.

I don't think it's necessary at all for people to post their experiences here.

AND it's the holidays. People are busy, people are trying to enjoy their families and friends, and people just may be trying to let go of this unpleasantness for awhile.

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

RJ relax. The Lord is bigger than all of this, that is what these scriptures tell us. You either believe the Word of God or not... period.

Believe the Word about Carl Stevens, believe the Word about all that happened to us, repent that all of us did hear the pure Word of God and then chose not to live by it at times.

But most importantly RG, read your postings and discern the spirit. Not an "evil" spirit, just one that has been so hurt and wants revenge. Revenge is not ours... it is the Lords. And anyone who sees and discerns what is happening in the ministry at present can certainly see the principle of "you reap what you sow" going on.

But most importantly, hehe (sorry, I couldn't resist, just trying to be clever again) I will NOT, ever again, by the Grace of God, hear the Word and not keep it to make my "peers" happy and "tow the line". If that be in TBS/GG or in Factnet.

RJ, in TBS/GG when we disagreed with them, they turned against us and reviled us. The lovely thing here is we can discuss and disagree (of course at times we will disagree, because we are all coming from such different lives and places), but we can still honor each other with our love, and laugh about our funny lives.

Peace, darlin... off to work I go.

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

Sponge Bob, YOU ROCK! And amen to BJ... God is bigger than all of this. I'm tired of thinking about it.

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

British Sponge-Bob Joybell,

Thanks for pointing out what needs to be pointed out. I have been reading and amazed that anyone would go along with the baloney of a couple of guys, one a sincere sucker and one a giant egotist, who are going to use Matthew 18:15 to be the heroes who bring GGWO back to God. I am willing to bet practically everyone who ever left already followed this scripture.

How Can GGWO go back to God when they never began there? Did not this organization begin when Carl Stevens climbed out a window because he had a Matthew 18:15 meeting with his church at that time about his adulterous affair? He left with his brainwashed loyal hippy kids and began the cult called The Bible Speaks in South Berwick, ME. This cult uses God's word to take advantage of people. The leaders who remain in TBS/GGWO are master manipulators of both the Word of God and human beings. The assumption that GGWO is a church is ridiculous. It masks itself as a church. The leaders have been expertly trained by Carl Stevens to use evangelical Christianity to serve themselves. It is their meat and potatoes. What church do you know of where the pastor gets treated like a king and all should bow before him because he is so anointed? The only place I have seen this behavior is in a cult called TBS/GGWO.

Those of you who consider some of the GGWO leaders your good old friends, why didn’t you stay with them? I wonder how the folks who sold their homes so that Lenox, MA property could be purchased think fondly of their days in the cult. I wonder if the folks who sold their homes to live in ‘body houses’ have fond memories. These things fell apart and the leaders kept the money. Very rarely was any money returned to any of the folks who gave all their assets to buy property. Steven’s had all kinds of cash he was sharing with his loyal followers to buy property when he first moved to Baltimore, MD yet Dovydenas got no cash back just the Lenox property. Many of the people who were conned into forsaking all to follow Jesus have never recovered from what happened to them. The casualty list far outweighs the few of you who had such a good time when you were in TBS/GGWO. I have been gone from the cult for many years, too but I do pray to God that GGWO closes its doors. It would be great if the leaders could repent but they need to get out of the Bible business. It is not for revenge but because it is a place that I know from personal experience is a mind control cult that has reaped devastation on thousands of people..

There are now many freshly wounded in Baltimore, MD who have been set free from the mind control cult called GGWO. They are working together to bring healing to each other. I applaud their efforts. I am sad that so many of these new folks have been driven away from sharing their hearts on Factnet because of a few folks with personal agendas.

Louise Connolly

(Message edited by louise connolly on December 30, 2004)

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

I totally agree with you, Louise.

I want it to shut down, too.

It tires me out to read verse after verse used to support forgiveness for Carl, forgiveness for the elders, love for those in power at GGWO. Just about every scripture quoted here is some attempt to protect Carl and the rest of the GGWO mafia.

Why? These evil men are not only un-Godly, they are actively harming people! Perhaps I really am a heathen, as been suggested by a few on this board, but when I pray about this, the answer I get isn't "just love Carl and forgive him and leave him alone".

How about enough love for those that have been abused and continue to be abused to shut this cult down?

I wish I had a plan to put these low-lifes out of business once and for all. As of today, I don't. But I do think that legal action, such as Neil is proposing, is the ONLY thing so far that has had any tangible effect. Everything else has just put the GGWO propaganda machine in motion. Prayer and fasting may un-harden my knuckle-head and allow God to give me an answer.

Call me vengeful, call me hateful, call me un-Christian, call me whatever. If you want to start trading scripture, I'm ready. For every forgive and forget verse in the Bible, there's one where God is girding the righteous to SMITE the hell out of the unrighteous.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Not perhaps that this will do any good, but I wish to speak to the "personal agenda" accusations.

The only reason I even came back to factnet or to the cause of closing the cult was to help those who have been deveatated by it, like I was. I know that many people have written to me personally and have received what comfort and help I have had to give. I especially wanted to help the kids, which I believe I have had a small part in doing.

This plan of Jims has merit. Not for anyone's ego. it was designed to open the eys of the blind for if tht elders refused in the face of a mountain of evidence of wrong doing to repent, the blind would perhaps finaaly see what liars they really are at their core. We already know that...the people still at GGWO do not.

Secondly, if they had tried to play the game of pretending to repent, the blind would also see that they were publically approached with true evidence and attempted to manipulate once more. Jim could have ****ered that.

No one believes that this place is restorble in it's present form. No one has any illusions of "saving the day". Louise you did not include me in your post, but how you can think that I too have a personal agenda pains me. I have no warm and fuzzy memories from this cult. I want to see it stop just like you do.

I truly believed this plan had merit. From my perspective anyhting that could be employed to expose them so more could see what they are really about was worth the effort.

Maligning me is easy. Bjoy, BJ, Louise, Maria and whoever else...I know that I am not what you say, I know God knows my intentions in this matter were not any personal agenda, it was to help set more of the captives free. I know you don't believe me. But God does. He knows why people have chosen the malign and be nasty. He also knows that I am hurt and angry and more than a little confused by your attitudes.

My only prayer is that you someday understand that this place will never close its doors as long as this inaction continues. Personal agenda? The only thing I have gained from this experience so far is knowing I helpd the kids that contacted me, and a larger capacity for compassion, oh...and learning the depths people will go tyo to retain the status quo.


I want this place shut down, and wanted to do whatever it took to do so. Forgive Carl? I never said that and am not sure why anyone would think so.

You don't believe me either Boss? Now I am really hurt.

Personal agenda...I am stunned at this accusation. And personally hurt not that some of you care. What a sad day this is.

[in_quietness (in_quietness)]

Roberta,

One thing I have learned from you (and I thank you for it -- really), is how, when and why to be quiet. Yes, there is a time to voice, but I am learning and desire to grow in this divine truth ...in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength; and ye would not. Isa 30:15. We all have so much to learn.

[hodeuon (hodeuon)]

I so agree with you, Boss. The GGWO mafia, as you call them, needs to be put out of business. Like you, I wish I had a plan to do so. Then again, could be that God knows better than to let me make that plan. :-)

As you say, legal action does appear to be the only way to date to get their attention. I hope that Dave Drago's discussions with Marr have planted some seeds, and that there will be change resulting in a sound church replacing the current GGWO. Do I expect it to work? Honestly, not really. But I don't think we should put up stumbling blocks to anyone who wants to repent and change. This shouldn't be a "no quarter" fight. Should one or more or even all the GGWO leadership have a change of heart, we need to forgive but it won't be cheap grace. The consequences of some sins last beyond an "I'm sorry".

Meanwhile, what are we going to do? So far there is exactly one plan on the table: write up your story and send it to Jim. Or send it to AB. If you need to keep your Factnet pseudonym in your story, that's your call. It will be less powerful, but as an outsider looking in, I for one am not going to pass judgment on how much pain each of you chooses to relive.

What good will this do? Well, I've been alerting a few people to what's been going on at Greater Grace. Do you know what the first words are out of someone's mouth almost every time they hear? "I always that something was weird there." A lot of mature believers don't want to listen to an evil report. However, put the "Concerns" from www.carlstevens.org (http://www.carlstevens.org) or TalkinTruth's posts about GGCA from back during the summer in front of them, and they will acknowledge that there's a problem. If those who want to submit their stories, there will be hard documents to put in front of other churches in Baltimore. And Calvary Chapel and AWANA and anyone else to whom GGWO passes themselves off to as a healthy Christian church.

Is this plan going to put them out of business? No, probably not. Could it make it harder for GGWO to pull in new unwary recruits? Absolutely. If they have trouble getting recruits, then fewer people are going to keep getting hurt.

What else can we do?

Pray. Even those who don't think that GGWO can/should be salvaged believe that God will continue to lead people out, right? You all know of people who are still inside. Also, has anyone else gotten the impression that God is moving forward with a very intricate sense of timing? Pray that each of us will recognize when God wants to teach us something so that we don't slow down His plan.

There are people in the community who have had interaction with GGWO. Not every story is from an attender. If you know of people outside the dissident community who might want to send their stories to Jim or AB, those would be good to have, too.

And we can stay united. There's been quite enough sniping at Roberta, Jim, and Dave Drago. And I'm not talking about Jeannie, who simply has an honest difference of opinion. Whether you agree with Dave Drago's approach or not - he stepped forward and *did* something. Please stop for just a minute and recognize that Roberta has never called for anything but the dismantlement of GGWO. And yet she sees the value in confronting them. Not so that they'll squirm away or stonewall one more time, but so that it will be apparent to other ministries that GGWO has been confronted biblicallly, that people have tried to get them to listen. Whether such an attempt ends up being a ministry of mercy or a ministry of condemnation would really be in the hands of GGWO's leadership.

Hodeuon

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Excellent, Hodeuon.

Roberta is, as always, sincere. Don't make this about her.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Roberta,

I want you to know that you are one of the last people I would intentionally hurt. Nothing is worth that.

My frustration comes from this idea that either we follow Dave, Jim and your idea or we're sitting on our hands. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I get the vibe that we all need to let this respectful, gentle, politically correct plan run its course and be secure in the fact that at least we're being Biblical about all this.

I wasn't being sarcastic in my earlier post when I said that the Bible is chock full of stories where God has armored the righteous to do battle with the unrighteous. I'm not talking about approaching your brother in a spirit of love. Carl Stevens is not my brother. Carl is abusing MY brothers and sisters.

All of you learned Bible scholars out there, will you say that there is no Scripture in which God blesses those who are going forth to smite the unrighteous? Is there not one instance in the Bible where God has commanded believers to get off their butts and take care of business?

People of Factnet: the house is on fire right this second! YOUR brothers and sisters are burning alive inside! Should the fire be put out, or should we form a committee to design posters for Fire Safety Awareness Week?

Roberta, I also feel that the approach that you and Dave and Jim advocate is not new. Would this be the first time that Carl and GGWO has ever been approached "in a spirit of love" concerning false doctrine, pastor worship, abuse, etc.? What has it done? How does the CRI and Martin reports fit into this? How does the Dovydenas case fit in with this?

The argument has been made that regardless of the result, we win with this approach. I disagree. I think that the miniscule chance that GGWO leadership repents is tremendously offset by the fact that this approach legitimizes GGWO. To me, this approach is for the formerly healthy church that has gone astray, not a personality cult.

Once Jim makes this presentation to the elders (because you know the false idol Carl will be spared any unpleasantness and certainly won't be present), what then? What will be contained in the presentation beyond a list of people's grievances? What will constitute "success"? To me, success will be for Carl to get up in front of the congregation during a Sunday morning internet broadcast and admit to each and every false doctrine, clearly state that he is NOT annointed or "God's man", ask for forgiveness and ride off to drug treatment. That's my idea of success, because it is the ONLY thing that will open the eyes of the decieved. ANYTHING else, unless it comes out of the mouth of the false idol will be passed off as an "evil report". What, then, will be the measure of success according to Jim, Dave, and Roberta?

What do I think will happen? First and foremost, Carl H. Stevens will never be required to publically repent. That will be a prerequisite for any action by the elders. The memory of Carl, beloved founder of GGWO, the false idol, PASTAH(!) will have to be left intact. And if that happens, there will be people that will still believe the bull**** he spews. And his minions will still have that power to use over the congregation.

Maybe the answer to this question will go some way in reassuring people like me: What are the "conditions of surrender" or the minimum requirements for Carl and the elders that will be presented in Jim's report? I don't think it's too much to ask what the definite and concrete requirements for GGWO are so that the doubters can see for themselves if the Mafia are doing the right thing. I wish I could be optimistic, but I can just about bet that none of this will require Carl to explain to the congregation the false doctrine.

I will repeat Ronald Reagan's doctrine: "We will not negotiate with terrorists".

I wish you luck with your efforts. I hope it turns out just like you hope it will. I agree that at least you have a plan. But I think that there has to be more than one way to approach this, because the GGWO Mafia is going to have to have a MAJOR change of behaviour and attitude to even LISTEN to any sort of presentation. THEY DON'T EVEN LISTEN. They don't feel like they have to. They think they only have to answer to God. And they have God's Man on their side.

I am beginning to think that posting here is a waste of my time and the time of those that read Factnet. Most people here are rightfully filled with a sense of justice being done when a murderer, or rapist, or child molester is sent to jail and taken off the street where they CAN'T ABUSE PEOPLE ANY MORE. Will any of you say that there is no Christian love when a criminal is locked up? When it comes to Carl, however, any talk of bringing him to justice brings a torrent of Scripture about love and forgiveness. Why is he different? What sets Carl Stevens apart from the common criminal?

[muskyrose (muskyrose)]

AMEN! Hodeuon I agree with you also.

[free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)]

Boss or anyone else,
Does anyone know of an objective third party and reputable organization which could intercede in this situation? Do you think Calvary Chapel might come in and lend a hand at "restructuring" this mess? I shudder at the idea of any "nondenominational" coming in because these typically don't have a "checks and balance" accountability system built in. Who can be called upon? Christian Research Institute? Watchman Fellowship? Some legitimate evangelical association which has certain criterion to be met for a church to be considered legitimate? We are talking about something much deeper here...RELIGIOUS FREEDOM! Regretfully, with this freedom comes wackos like Carl Stevens who joyfully scoop up lives and money for personal gain! How can these types of charlatans be stopped without setting a legal precedent which will cause a loss of RELIGIOUS FREEDOM and LIBERTY? I don't know! BUT GOD DOES!!! PRAY-PRAY-PRAY cuz we don't want to jepordize our religious freedoms due to a narrow focus on GGWO! What exactly will the implications be in the "bigger scheme" of things? Sure we take Carl Stevens out...but do we take out "legitimate" churches and ministries too because of our actions. Cry out to God for wisdom cuz our backs are against the wall!

FTBO

(Message edited by free_to_be_off on December 30, 2004)

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

I hear you FTBO. I don't want a single LEGITIMATE church to be taken out or even hindered.

I have never been a part of GGWO. I have been affected a LOT by this cult, though. I have only attended church (for any length of time) at "mainstream" denominations (mostly Baptist).

When I tell mainstream Christian people about GGWO and they read the stuff on the net and they watch a service on the internet, most people are struck by the WEIRDNESS of it all. (The people I have "shared" GGWO with range from some friends that "warm the pew" at a Methodist church, to the pastor of my hometown Baptist church, who is quite familiar with GGWO.) The standing ovations, the constant message of "this ministry this, this ministry that", Carl rambling on and on about nonsense, delegated authority, marking, the Bema Seat, geographical will, the affairs, and on and on and on, all of this seperates GGWO from %99 of the churchs out there. There is not much chance of confusing GGWO with a mainstream church. From what I can see, Carl never wanted it to be mainstream anyway. If he wanted mainstream, he would have stayed Baptist.

A lot of the stuff done by GGWO would be unethical or illegal no matter what type of organization or leader did it.

Any leader or organization has a responsibility to do the right thing.

I pray for God in His wisdom to show how to stop the abuser of His children and have this false idol removed.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

You don't like any solution or plan offered so far...so offer one...a concrete one.

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Arguendo, I am a claims adjuster for a personal injury firm in Florida. I believe you have stated you are an attorney, but have never been in TBS/GG. I am not sure if you practice law in MD or Federal Tort... is there a cause of action to bring against Carl Stevens and/or TBS/GG in either criminal law or civil law in which victims can get damages for what Stevens and/or the ministry has done to them?

I am not seeing anything criminal that they have done wrong. Is there possibly a cause of action in the Maryland or Federal civil tort arena that you see?

Or if this is out of your area of expertise, do you know of anywhere folks can go to to see if they have any kind of avenue of redress for all the hurt that has been done?

Thanks.

[hodeuon (hodeuon)]

Boss,

These verses might fit what you're looking for. Further context in Joshua 7.

5 And the men of Ai struck down about thirty-six men, for they chased them from before the gate as far as Shebarim, and struck them down on the descent; therefore the hearts of the people melted and became like water.
6 Then Joshua tore his clothes, and fell to the earth on his face before the ark of the LORD until evening, he and the elders of Israel; and they put dust on their heads.
7 And Joshua said, "Alas, Lord GOD, why have You brought this people over the Jordan at all -- to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? Oh, that we had been content, and dwelt on the other side of the Jordan!
8 "O Lord, what shall I say when Israel turns its back before its enemies?
9 "For the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land will hear it, and surround us, and cut off our name from the earth. Then what will You do for Your great name?"
10 So the LORD said to Joshua: "Get up! Why do you lie thus on your face?
11 "Israel has sinned, and they have also transgressed My covenant which I commanded them. For they have even taken some of the accursed things, and have both stolen and deceived; and they have also put it among their own stuff.

Hodeuon

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Dear Roberta,
My posts were not personally directed at you and I'm sorry you took them as being so.

You posted: "Maligning me is easy. Bjoy, BJ, Louise, Maria and whoever else...I know that I am not what you say, I know God knows my intentions in this matter were not any personal agenda it was to help set more of the captives free. I know you don't believe me. But God does. He knows why people have chosen the malign and be nasty. He also knows that I am hurt and angry and more than a little confused by your attitudes. "

**********

Roberta, may I point out to you that I never mentioned your name in the post I made on the thread stating why I was stepping out of Factnet for a season!! I understand you are hurt and angry at people that just blasted you prior to the post you made above. Don't include me in that list!!!

I have no "attitude" towards you. We don't agree on some issues, but that has not once changed my heart attitude towards you!! I never said I doubted or disbelieved your intentions either. You don't stand or fall before me, you owe me no explanations for what you do or say. That alone would be between you and the Lord.

Its not because of you that I am stepping away from Factnet. The Holy Spirit laid it on my heart heavily for close to two weeks before I took a major step and obeyed. I am not permanently 'leaving' I am taking time off to spend more time with the Lord right now. I am not the only person who is stepping back for awhile, and I am not going to get into a long verbal dissertation with anyone over it. Its part of the healing process I need right now. As the Lord leads I'll post.

Now we both know that we don't agree on issues. You said above you would do anything to see that GGWO closes its doors permanently. I don't feel that way. I want to see God move beyond what any of us would even fathom. Sure we all want justice, but isn't it better when its God's justice?? Sure it is. I still have hope of the Lord turning the entire thing 360 degrees for the good. That is "my" hope. "My" heart's desire. Its between "me" and the Lord". I won't keep God in a box and demand of Him to make them pay for what they did to me and everyone else. I wanted that for awhile when the hurt and the pain I experienced was so heart wrenching and I thought it would never ease up. When I cried buckets of tears not only for my own spiritual rape but for the wounds of those posting on here I started to become filled with hate and anger inside of me. It festered too. I got really depressed and down at times.

The truth is, it didn't do a darn thing for me spiritually, it didn't edify the Lord, it made "Maria" miserable and sometimes "Maria' made everybody around her miserable because of it. Thank God I had the friends I made on Factnet to help me thru those dark hours/days. I don't know what I would have done if the Lord hadn't put many of you in my path. I mean that with all of my heart.


Well, thru that time the Lord used you, Bonnie &amp; Chris mightily in my life, and, He Himself got thru to "Maria" in this last week in particular. I spoke with 2 Professional Licensed Christians, one a Psychologist, the other a counsellor with an MSW (same credentials as Bonnie has). I spoke with both at great lengths, I left no stone unturned in regards to my GGWO "experiences" and the cultic tendencies the ministry has. I shared the experiences that I could remember that others have gone through (no names mentioned ever). I took some major steps to overcome this seige of unrelenting depression I was going through. The first one was admitting I had it. Bonnie helped me with that. Thank God she did. Its not easy admitting that first to yourself then to a stranger!

I also knew I have to quiet myself down, and to purpose daily to have those intimate times that I used to have with Him. Both of those counselors told me to go back to basics...just like Bonnie had shared with me months ago at her home. Really seeing how my foundation spiritually had been crumbling beneath me was also hard to deal with. No amount of my temper tantrums, or anger at Carl and his minions was going to change that for the good. Anger doesn't rebuild spiritual foundations. Neither does bitterness and unforgiveness and I had gotten full of it again allowing things in my spirit that should have never had a door open to them.

I feel like this huge weight has lifted right off of me. I've had such a freedom again these last 10 days that I can't really explain it here on a forum. It wasn't easy either starting on my knees. I can now see that the Lord's way for true healing is a process. I had to go back to the very beginning "again"...and purpose to walk in true forgiveness from the heart. So much for my stinking pride. I was desperate. I got back on track. The Lord gave me a special vision for my life. Each time something rises up within me that tries to bring on the hurts and pains all over again, giving them to Him each time the depth of that pain will diminish. I could also see the Lord showing me that each time those hurts are given to Him, He builds a new level in our foundation in Him.

As best as I can each day to keep my focus on Him, to spend time with Him, to listen for His voice, to not only read but obey His words, and He promised me then that I would experience that "joy unspeakable" that is derived from that life in the Spirit. Day to day it will manifest - more and more in my life. And that, is what I want. He also showed me how much He wants that for everyone of His children. He wants all of us to have that abundant life in the Holy Spirit.

Its nice to even see myself finally being on the road to recovery. This isn't a delusion, nor is it a "manic euphoria stage" of a bi-polor disorder (which the psychologist said is not my problem at all...praise God!!) Its the same reactionary symptoms of someone being physically raped, only its spiritual rape. I know its a process and that things are going to try to rear their ugly heads up...like the next spiritual rape victim I help get out, or sharing the pain of someone just realizing what damage the ministry has done to their lives...etc. I also know in my heart that the extent I allow the Lord to heal me, it is to that extent God will use me to minister healing in someone else's life. Then too I can share with them that there is LIFE outside of TBS/GGWO...life in the Holy Spirit.

To me that makes every stinking tear I've shed worth it all before the Lord. As for Carl? He'll get his from the Lord. So will the elders that don't turn away from their wicked ways. Pray for them to turn to the Lord. The judgement that awaits them for mocking Him the 12th of December with their Declaration is coming sooner than they realize. I have never put "THUS SAIETH THE LORD" on anything I've posted, but that statement I made came directly from the Holy Spirit. God WILL not be mocked.
They are ALL accountable. I now can pray and hope they turn around before the Lord smites them. It is not a place I would want to be in myself.

Love Maria

[maria_t (maria_t)]

By the way...everybody, that is my "concrete" plan that I have to offer. FWIW.

Love Maria

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Beautiful Maria, sound counsel and so peaceful.

14 years ago when we left Baltimore and came to Florida, Mike and I heard of some things that happened after we left. I don't think I have to expound on what kind of things we heard... you have all been through that. It devastated me that a ministry I had been in for 19 years.. since 1973, would so easily treat us that way. I was hurt, railed against them to family and friends and was royally ****ed off for about a year.

Funny thing happened about a year later. Tim Kelly's ex-wife, a dear friend of mine from Lenox, said "get over it, BJ. You aren't hurting TBS/GG, you are hurting yourself, your family and your friends." First I was royally ****ed off at Suzie for not "understanding" the extent of my pain. But I did give it to the Lord.

Suzie, who was always considered badly, probably as "unsaved" cuz she left the ministry and her husband, saved my life. What a friend she was!!

Sounds like you are receiving "Suzie - Good Friend" kind of counsel. Maria... God bless you real special this new year, girlfriend.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Short and sweet.

Well, maybe just short.

There are people who are happy to come on factnet and join the demonizers. Let's make a demon of everyone and everything inside GGWO. Let's call anyone who thinks otherwise "deceived" "naive" "egotistical" because we can always knock down straw men.

Not everyone inside GGWO is a demon. Not everyone drinks the koolaid--some of those posting are happy to say that while they were in they were not completely fooled. I guess that makes them better and smarter.

The facts are that scripture COMMANDS us to be reconciled to one another and to God. If God has given us the steps to do so and we must follow them to the point of absolute refusal then we have done all we can. If we don't attempt to be reconciled to our brothers then we disobey Christ.

If we say that these folks are not brethren, therefore I do not need to be reconciled to them--we err yet again because God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself--and we don't know his mind but that he wants the gospel preached to every creature. If they are brothers then reconcile if at all possible, if they are not brothers then they need to hear the gospel of saving grace in Christ. There are no other categories. No other options. There is no option saying we must demonize. I don't have to be a partaker of error, and I don't have to be tolerant of their aberrations--but I do have to love them. If you have nothing to do but **** and moan what in the world are you accomplishing? A sort of public online catharsis? Well isn't that special.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Jim - a few questions:

Are you saying that the biblical process needs to be followed repeatedly until reconciliation takes place?

When can one be considered unentreatable?

Where does that leave those who have previously followed the biblical process without resolution?

These are questions that have been asked to me that I am unable to answer. Can you provide me with some guidance on this?

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

Excellent questions anon.
My understanding is that attempts for reconciliation have been met with lying, deception, coverup and no repentance.
Communications with the lawyer/elder months ago stated that personal grievances could be brought but no mention of CHS' sins, doctrinal issues, etc.
Notice the positioning of my wording lawyer/elder. His job is negotiating. He will negotiate the best deal for his client CHS/GGWO. This deal is presented in a way that does not open the door for lawsuits. It is also to preserve the "legacy" of CHS. The current atmosphere amongst leadership is one of positioning. People are seeking the most favorable position they can place themselves in. Please remember that TBS/GGWO was founded upon adultery. Yes, when CHS refused correction by the Baptists, he escaped through the back of a church in Bath and holed up in a Holiday Inn until the heat was off. TBS came into being because he refused correction. The ministry from that point has been based on multiple adulteries, lying, manipulation and false doctrines to support self-preservation.
I find it interesting that nothing has been said on Factnet about the meeting scheduled in February with approximately 27 affiliated pastors. One pastor said there was a 70 percent chance that all would disaffiliate if their grievances weren't met. Are you invited to that meeting Jim or Dave. Last I heard, you weren't.
Jim, you tried to reconcile years ago, we have tried. The problem is them. The word isn't reconciliation. It is REPENTANCE. They will talk your ear off about tweaking doctrines and making this change and that, but will they repent? Will they get outside help? When they do, then they mean business.

[hodeuon (hodeuon)]

Terra Cognita,

That's sure an interesting question about a meeting of affiliated pastors in February. I just went to GGWO's missions page (http://www.ggwo.org/missions/index.html) and counted about 50 affiliates in the US and another 4 in Canada. Why the disparity between 50 affiliates and 27 pastors at the February meeting?

Hodeuon

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Are you saying that the biblical process needs to be followed repeatedly until reconciliation takes place?

Not all of these elders are on the same page is my thinking. I think that as long as there are some that are reachable--then reach them.

I said there are two types of people:

brethren with whom we are commanded to be reconciled--and of course that process often necessitates repentance--hence the "winning of your brother" in Matthew chapter eighteen.

THEN there are those who need to hear the gospel. I still will share the gospel with a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness--I don't seek to be joined to him in his error.

Paul occasionally made statements like this one:

1 Tim. 1:18-20 (ESV)
This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, [19] holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, [20] among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

AND this:
1 Cor. 5:5 (ESV)
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

And John says further:

1 John 5:16 (ESV)
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

The disciplinary powers of the church are few. This is a good thing. The church may exclude people from its fellowship through excommunication. The purpose of excommunication is to bring an erring brother to repentance and to be reconciled to him.

Matthew 18:15 (ESV)
"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, <font color="ff0000">you have gained your brother.</font>

We are not called personally to destroy anyone. Satan will do that as will our human nature. Repentance and reconciliation go hand in hand. If your brother listens to you, you have gained him.

How long? How often? How long is longsuffering? How patient is God? Reconciliation is something we must seek but which God gives. God commands repentance and yet He is the one who gives it. This giving of repentance is found in this context:
2 Tim. 2:24-26 (ESV)
And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, <font color="ff0000">patiently enduring evil, [25] correcting his opponents with gentleness. <u>God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth</u>, [26] and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will</font>.

Terra,
You will see that I have attempted to address your comments above as well. As to the founding of TBS/GGWO, you know I also recorded this elsewhere. Armstrongism was also founded on gross error, but many precious souls were led to truth because some friends of Christ persevered. How long was Armstrongism in error? How long was patience? How much do you care about those precious souls inside GGWO? Are they not God's lambs, too? Terra, I may be wrong, but are you not also a leader who cares? I think you are. You make the strongest point concerning this meeting in February.

Dave Drago and I have been vilified here on factnet as one being a sucker and the other having a huge ego. I have attempted to comfort Dave, convincing him that he is not really all that egotistical. He has helped me not to be so gullible.

Facts concerning Dave and I going to the February meeting are:

1. We have not been invited.

2. Both of us are "outside the camp" and willing to help--one a Baptist, the other a Presbyterian--but we both have a history with TBS/GGWO. No other outside advisors can offer that. Both of us have studied enough Scripture to be able to know the erroneous doctrines in GGWO and the effects of those doctrines on real lives.

3. Neither of us are 'victims.' We both believe that God led us both in AND out of GGWO. Neither of us have an axe to grind. Neither of us have a mind to destroy, but rather to build up. We are both aware of the history of tweaking doctrines (I was there in 1980/81 and participated in the TBS response to the Martin Report.}

4. As to the lawyer/elder Arguendo has made clear the role of attorney and what dogs and ducks do. There are more elders than just this one, no? If there is a "puppetmaster" pulling strings then we can all go home, right?

5. Thinking out loud and before all the whole world right here on factnet--I would have thought that what they might be tempted do is invite Dave and not me. I am, after all, in the eyes of some of those elders if not just CHS and Paul, the devil and Judas for instigating the Lang legal episode--seeking to destroy the ministry and all that. I cost them money, they might think (rather than their own intransigence and sinfulness). I have attempted to talk to a certain elder that goes all the way back to my 1975 NESB graduating class--it was like pulling teeth. I don't think there is much grace left--greater or otherwise--for me in the heart of CHS or his loyalists. I will say this, I am ready to repent of any sin with which they want to confront me.

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Well presented, JF. Thanks, again.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I want to acknowledge that people and pastors within GG are not all in the same place spiritually. I do believe that many there sincerely want to do God's will. Perhaps you and Dave entering the fray with them may help some to see their way into the clear, even if it doesn't change the overall organization. So, I don't wish to be thought of as against your efforts. Quite conceivably, they might bear some good fruit. I'm not part of some 'side' that is against you or Dave, Jim. There are not really any sides in Christ. Walk in peace. Have a better year than you have yet had.

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Bob said:
"Are we concerned with saving or fixing an organization, or with the people who are in it? My own concern is for people. There are organizations all over the place that vary in how bad they are. Why fix a bad one when you can start fresh? Will you reach and help more of the people that way?"

IF, you are implying that those who engage the leaders do not care for the people then you are not accurate. It all comes down to the objective and the approach. It is a complicated process.

1. IF your objective is to reach those who have left then it is a one on one approach. This is critical. And, it needs to be done. Keep doing it.

2. IF your objective is to help those who are still in then your approach is multi-faceted:

You can engage (one on one) your brother helping him see the light and leave. This is critical and it must be done. Keep doing it.

And, you can confront the decision makers to repent and change so that those who are still in will be helped. This is critical and it must be done keep doing it.

Also, you can come up with a document that clearly reveals that real people with real stories were really hurt by the organization of GGWO. Did you ever consider the influence a document like that could have on the elders, members and any organization that might want to help the injured be compensated and have their grievances addressed? This is critical and it must be done.

3. IF your objective is to close the doors of GGWO then your approach is to vilify anyone who attempts anything else other then your objective. This is counterproductive. Keep it up. I am so sincerely gullible that I believe your prideful potshots really help.

4. IF your objective is to stay anonymous while criticizing and belittling the motives, methods and minds of those who try then your approach (although cathartic) is childish and unfair.

I have requested three areas for change:

1. Immediately start from the pulpit renouncing the false doctrines and correcting the errors.

2. Have Jim and I go to the conference for all the reasons Jim mentioned.

3. Bring in an outside Evangelical agency to ASSIST them in making the necessary transitions to include doctrine, polity and compensating those who have been deemed legitimately hurt by the organizations abusive practices. This would involve a fact finding commission that the agency would preside over.

But, I am too gullible and easily deceived to confront Michael Mar with that approach. I have been too busy drinking in the system of evil. Also, not one of those three mentioned areas has happened. Will it? Time will tell. Time will tell. Time will tell. And, if areas one and three are accomplished then I can live without area two!

IMHO, it all comes down to what your objective is and how you approach it.

For Him,
Dave

(Message edited by Dave Drago on January 01, 2005)

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Terra Cognita,
Why haven't you written your story? It sure would help.
For Him,
Dave

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

Jim,
I am all for reconciliation and forgiveness. I question the sincerity of GGWO when they continue to denigrate believers that have left and place blame on everything and everyone but themselves. (Saying if we have hurt anyone, we are sorry, doesn't cut it.)
The lawyer/elder is the one that is approving who and who cannot attend this meeting. Does that sound like transparency to you? Sounds like control to me. The lawyer/elder will invite you or Drago if he feels that you will support what the elders want to accomplish. This is an internal ministry meeting, so I would think they want to keep it just family. Hopefully real change will come out of it.

On a different note, it has been mentioned that Baker and Powell are editing doctrinal booklets and taking out stuff like "one pastor teacher", and references to that sort. Do you know if they have told the church that these doctrines were wrong and have a plan to reeducate the people?

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

Dave,
I think your three areas for change are excellent!

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

I wanted to correct one of my statements pertaining to the approval process for the meeting. The lawyer/elder is not solely in charge of that.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Jim, thanks.

Dave, if an independent group would be invited by leadership to become involved in mananging change, what would be the benchmark and objective criteria in order to measure success or, at least, compliance?

Would the external agency be recommended by an independent person with expertise in these matters?

Would there be more than one consultant brought in, i.e. a team?

Would there be a contractual agreement involved between the external agency and GG indicating the minimal length of time that oversight, services and assistance would be rendered?

Would certain actions be time referenced and specific, e.g. dates by which doctrines would be publicaly corrected, how they would be corrected, by whom, etcetera?

I understand that none of this has taken place, but believe that in order to be prepared for the next step some consideration must be given to these questions.

Most sincerely,

AB

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

These are all pertinent questions, but one step at a time, and not revealing too much before the subject is even broached to GG seems unadvisable.

Perhaps these questions can be considered with Jim/Dave in an email at some point if and when we get that far?

Just a thought

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

Neil Carrick attempted to bring in an outside group that had experience in these matters. I believe there was a conference call with the lawyer/elder, Carrick and an individual from the denomination. Nothing happened after that. As I recall (its written somewhere here on Factnet) he knows two groups that are very experienced in dealing with these problems. One is Baptist, I don't recall what the other one was.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

I have been very busy for a few weeks and meant to say this earlier.

I have absolutely no problem with Dave Drago's relationship with Marr. Dave has never come across as an ego driven person to me, so I think he is aware that he CAN be fooled. This is my only concern in this situation, that someone's pride would get in the way and they would let their guard down.

Dave has decided to go the path of negotiation. Negotiation requires people to not only get close, but to become empathetic. This is not a problem as long as one does not sacrifice one's own principles. The fact that Dave is close only shows me that he's serious about what he's says he wants. BTW, Dave is in a crappy position for negotiation. Dave has nothing that can help Marr if Marr is insincere.

I trust Dave to not get used because I believe he strong enough and humble enough to engage with Marr/GGWO and come out unscathed.

(Message edited by arguendo on January 02, 2005)

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

An outside agency that might be willing to help:

Center for Church Renewal--Gene Getz (http://www.renewalradio.org/phil_frame.html)

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

In Florida, we have a legal maneuver called mediation and/or arbitration. In these meetings, both sides meet with either 1 or 3 "mediators or arbitrators."

If the elders were indeed willing to try to "make well" those parts of the ministry that are not God-based, they could allow this to happen. But the big word is "IF".

In Florida the Plaintiff cannot get to "trial" without mediation. There would be no reason, outside of litigation, for GG to allow a mediation/arbitration process to happen. That is UNLESS they are truly willing to turn from bad practices to Godly ones (i.e. repentance).

Dave and Jim would be excellent attendees for the "outsiders". They both have gifts of knowledge, and most importantly wisdom. Then the mediator or arbitrators could be Gene Getz and/or Chuck Smith, etc.

While it would be "unbinding" (meaning GG would not be forced to change or adopt the outsider's principles), it would be a healthy, biblical exchange of discernment, in love.

Lots of "IF's" and quite honestly, unless GG elders are able to be led of the Holy Spirit into a forum like this, why should they? They have so MUCH to lose and nothing to gain, unless they truly want to listen to good Godly wisdom and have a "Peter" spirit to Paul's discernment.

Just some thoughts. Again, this usually optimistic person has serious doubts that this can happen at this time.

Edit 30 minutes later: After thinking about this post for a little while, I remembered son Paul recently going to dad to try to help dad do "right". We can see how that ended up. The elders had a wonderful opportunity to follow the Lord and the Word. They did not. So not very optimistic that this can happen until Pastor Stevens is home with the Lord.

(Message edited by bjerwin on January 02, 2005)

[cape_cod (cape_cod)]

My two cents...(for what it's worth)

I know of many different people over the years who have confronted Carl Stevens one on one regarding either his personal sins or concerning his many doctrinal errors and false teachings. Even when he has said that he'll make personal changes and set things straight from the pulpit, needless to say he never did. Futhermore, he would always malign and discredit the person who confronted him. The same exact pattern has held true decade after decade going way back to the 60's from all that I have heard. I would be totally shocked to see ANY major 'public' repentance come from him personally. Carl Stevens has always held ALL the strings in HIS ministry and the leaders/elders have ALWAYS done as they are told by 'God's man / pet (who remembers this one?) / anointed one'. You have ALL seen what has happened in the past even if one of his own CHILDREN dared to confront him. I personally do NOT see things changing very much for the better as long as he is drawing breath on planet Earth. There is just so much at stake in regards to his legacy and just far too much arrogance and pride that has been revealed over the years. It would take great humility and brokeness to repent in PUBLIC after all these years. Although, with God, ALL things ARE possible.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

And--he will not, (nor will any of us), always be drawing breath.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

cape_cod

This post from Hudeon says it best why this confrontation at this particular time may help save a lot of people from a lot of heartache:

hodeuon (hodeuon)
Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 12:12 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I so agree with you, Boss. The GGWO mafia, as you call them, needs to be put out of business. Like you, I wish I had a plan to do so. Then again, could be that God knows better than to let me make that plan. :-)

As you say, legal action does appear to be the only way to date to get their attention. I hope that Dave Drago's discussions with Marr have planted some seeds, and that there will be change resulting in a sound church replacing the current GGWO. Do I expect it to work? Honestly, not really. But I don't think we should put up stumbling blocks to anyone who wants to repent and change. This shouldn't be a "no quarter" fight. Should one or more or even all the GGWO leadership have a change of heart, we need to forgive but it won't be cheap grace. The consequences of some sins last beyond an "I'm sorry".

Meanwhile, what are we going to do? So far there is exactly one plan on the table: write up your story and send it to Jim. Or send it to AB. If you need to keep your Factnet pseudonym in your story, that's your call. It will be less powerful, but as an outsider looking in, I for one am not going to pass judgment on how much pain each of you chooses to relive.

What good will this do? Well, I've been alerting a few people to what's been going on at Greater Grace. Do you know what the first words are out of someone's mouth almost every time they hear? "I always that something was weird there." A lot of mature believers don't want to listen to an evil report. However, put the "Concerns" from www.carlstevens.org (http://www.carlstevens.org) or TalkinTruth's posts about GGCA from back during the summer in front of them, and they will acknowledge that there's a problem. If those who want to submit their stories, there will be hard documents to put in front of other churches in Baltimore. And Calvary Chapel and AWANA and anyone else to whom GGWO passes themselves off to as a healthy Christian church.

Is this plan going to put them out of business? No, probably not. Could it make it harder for GGWO to pull in new unwary recruits? Absolutely. If they have trouble getting recruits, then fewer people are going to keep getting hurt.

What else can we do?

Pray. Even those who don't think that GGWO can/should be salvaged believe that God will continue to lead people out, right? You all know of people who are still inside. Also, has anyone else gotten the impression that God is moving forward with a very intricate sense of timing? Pray that each of us will recognize when God wants to teach us something so that we don't slow down His plan.

There are people in the community who have had interaction with GGWO. Not every story is from an attender. If you know of people outside the dissident community who might want to send their stories to Jim or AB, those would be good to have, too.

And we can stay united. There's been quite enough sniping at Roberta, Jim, and Dave Drago. And I'm not talking about Jeannie, who simply has an honest difference of opinion. Whether you agree with Dave Drago's approach or not - he stepped forward and *did* something. Please stop for just a minute and recognize that Roberta has never called for anything but the dismantlement of GGWO. And yet she sees the value in confronting them. Not so that they'll squirm away or stonewall one more time, but so that it will be apparent to other ministries that GGWO has been confronted biblicallly, that people have tried to get them to listen. Whether such an attempt ends up being a ministry of mercy or a ministry of condemnation would really be in the hands of GGWO's leadership.

Hodeuon

[minutus (minutus)]

Someone sent this to me with David Alexander in mind, but it sure sounds a lot like CHS.

Profile of a Sociopath

A number of mind-manipulating cult leaders may exhibit many of the behavioral characteristics of a sociopath--an outstanding ability to charm and seduce followers. Since they appear apparently normal, they are not easily recognizable as deviant or disturbed. Although only a trained professional can make a diagnosis, it is important to be able to recognize the personality type in order to avoid further abuse. These traits also apply to a one-on-one cultic relationship.

Glibness/Superficial Charm
Language can be used without effort by them to confuse and convince their audience. Captivating storytellers that exude self-confidence, they can spin a web that intrigues others. Since they are persuasive, they have the capacity to destroy their critics verbally or emotionally.

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right." Craves adulation and attendance. Must be the center of attention with their own fantasies as the "spokesman for God," "enlightened," "leader of humankind," etc. Creates an us-versus-them mentality

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion, it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love
While they talk about "God's love" they are unable to give or receive it. Since they do not believe in the genuineness of their followers' love, they are very harsh in testing it from their devotees and expect them to feel guilt for their failings. Expects unconditional surrender.

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge, yet testing the beliefs of their followers with bizarre rules, punishments and behaviors. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them. Their skills are used to exploit, abuse and exert power. Since the follower cannot believe their leader would callously hurt them, they rationalize the behavior as necessary for their (or the group's) own "good" and deny the abuse. When devotees become aware of the exploitation it feels like a "spiritual rape" to them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others. The followers only see them as near perfect.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blame their followers or others outside their group. Blame reinforces passivity and obedience and produces guilt, shame, terror and conformity in the followers.

Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Totalist leaders frequently practice promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts. This is usually kept hidden from all but the inner circle. Stringent sexual control of their followers, such as forced breakups and divorces, removal of children from parents, rules for dating, etc.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future. Many groups claim as their goal world-domination or other utopian promises. Great contrast between the leader's opulent lifestyle and the followers' impoverishment. Support by gifts and donations from the followers who are pressured to give through fear and guilt. Highly sensitive to their own pain and health.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image and that of the group as needed to avoid prosecution and to increase income and to recruit a range of members. Is able to adapt or relocate as needed to preserve the group. Can resurface later with a new name, a new front group and a new twist on the scam.

Other Related Qualities:

1. Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them

2. Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them

3. Authoritarian

4. Secretive

5. Paranoid

6. Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired

7. Conventional appearance

8.Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)

9. Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life

10. Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)

11. Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim

12. Incapable of real human attachment to another

13. Unable to feel remorse or guilt

14. Extreme narcissism and grandiose

15. May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare. In the 1830's this disorder was called "moral insanity." By 1900 it was changed to "psychopathic personality." More recently it has been termed "antisocial personality disorder." Order: Without Conscience: The disturbing world of the psychopaths among us by Robert D. Hare

NOTE: The information in this article was originally compiled and posted by Exit &amp; Support Network™ and posted in March 2000. If you wish to copy this article on your website, please be kind enough to link back to our site.

http://home.datawest.net/esn-recovery/artcls/socio.htm

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Is it sure does sound like Carl...*shudder*

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Someone asked me why I was even bothering to change things at GG, and this quote from Mother Theresa came back to me, it is something I believe deeply:

"People are unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered. Love them anyway. If you do good, people may accuse you of selfish motives. Do good anyway. If you are successful, you may win false friends and true enemies. Succeed anyway. The good you do today may be forgotten tomorrow. Do good anyway. Honesty and transparency make you vulnerable. Be honest and transparent anyway. What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight. Build anyway. People who really want help may attack you if you help them. Help them anyway. Give the world the best you have and you may get hurt. Give the world your best anyway."

[maria_t (maria_t)]

To Terra Cognita:

You posted: "Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 3:52 pm:

"Neil Carrick attempted to bring in an outside group that had experience in these matters. I believe there was a conference call with the lawyer/elder, Carrick and an individual from the denomination. Nothing happened after that."

***

FWIF, I remember having a phone conversation with Neil at that time, he stated to me that the phone call was three way with Scott Robinson, Michael Marr and himself to set up the meeting with the outside party available to help. Still, nothing happened in the end.

Maria

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

I am encouraged by the number of things that are going on behind the scenes beyond the contributions of Drago and JF. Regional meetings, things planned for the near and distant future, and conversations with leaders in the Body of Christ. Also there are so many more readers of Factnet than contributors. They are waiting to see how the CHS and the elders respond to all this. I am not in the area where some of these things are happening but something good is happening!

[maria_t (maria_t)]

All of us have hopes, Terra...

All of us have been encouraged before and let down too. Its not that we aren't optimistic about "things to come" but its getting "old" because we've been led to believe these things are going to happen and NOTHING happens!!

Besides you elude to things "going on" behind the scenes, you haven't told us squat. Right now the things Dave and Jim are doing in the area of the Dissenter's Declaration is still in the beginning stages. Its a great idea but I'm not going to be involved in it because I don't see it going anyplace. I HOPE that it will, but realistically, it will get whitewashed again...and we will all be set up as fools again.
I don't want to be that vulternable one more time. I've had enough of it.

Maria

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

There was a great event that occurred in the Northeast this last weekend. Dave and JF are contributing. Evangelical leaders have been spoken to in the last few days. Events are being planned. People in regions will be informed when necessary. Patience is a virtue. The good thing is that believers are using their gifts to do what they can do. It's a process.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Maria

With all the posts you have made here recently alluding to all your so-called great knowledge of things going on and yet naming no names yourself, telling someone else they don't know squat sounds rather funny. You made a great show of telling us all you were taking a break to hear from "God" and you are posting more than ever. *LOL* No problem, post away!

Dissenter's Declaration??? Where on earth did you pick up that phrase?

A fool is someone who ever expected anything at all from the elder's repentance BS in the first place. This IS much going on that you do not know of, Maria, in a lot of areas. Let it be. It will work out the way it works out. People do what they can when the opportunity presents itself, nothing more, nothing less, if they love God.

Once you have been out a lot longer, you will understand better the ebb and flow of these things. Expect only what is, not want you hope for, and it is easier to see what progress there is if any.

It is a battle...it has a plan. But all good field generals know that to wage a battle one must be fluid, strong and pragmatic, expecting the results to be the best you can get at the time. Then you wait for another opportunity...watchful, ever watchful, prepared, ready to make good use of any crack in the armor of the opponent. Then you take your best shot, and adjust to the outcome as you plan for the next scrimage.

If anyone doesn't see this as a battle, they are very wrong. Because principalities and powers are ever ready to make use of men to launch their agendas, and we must be ready.

The next strategy will produce what it can and nothing more. The pragmatic approach is best...be prepared to adjust to whatever new reality good or bad that arises from the latest effort, and move on to the next plan.....over and over and over. Good soldiers take the field and win one inch at a time...so must we.

Good soldiers pocket their emotions for the seige, and do the work. Emotional expectations will spell defeat everytime.

The die is cast, let it shake out as it will, and take it from there. And if you and others choose not to involve yourself, that's good. No need for you to, but be a good warrior and let the soldiers on the frontline at the moment have their chance to try.

Remember...no one is a fool unless they expect too much and are disappointed over and over. The idea is to expect only the true result of an effort done in God's name, be it yea or nay.

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on January 04, 2005)

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"There was a great event that occurred in the Northeast this last weekend. Dave and JF are contributing. Evangelical leaders have been spoken to in the last few days. Events are being planned. People in regions will be informed when necessary. Patience is a virtue. The good thing is that believers are using their gifts to do what they can do. It's a process."

That is terrific news Terra...I am praying!!!

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Ya know, Roberta, I would find this post before going to bed tonight. Thanks for criticizing me right along with everybody else on here, at least I now feel like I am part of the gang.

So, I will address your snide remarks:

<font color="ff0000">#1. With all the posts you have made here recently alluding to all your so-called great knowledge of things going on and yet naming no names yourself, telling someone else they don't know squat...</font>

First of all. I stated I talked with one of the leaders today about this Feb. meeting Terra_Cognita posted. They acted as if they knew nothing about it, and wanted to know where I heard it from. Do you demand of anyone else their sources? No you do not. Did you demand Terra explain the details of the weekend's events in the Northeast? NO YOU DIDN'T. Enough said.

<font color="ff0000">#2 -- "You made a great show of telling us all you were taking a break to hear from "God" and you are posting more than ever. *LOL* No problem, post away!</font>"

First of all, Roberta, it was no show.

Secondly, I am sick to death of you twisting my words. I said I would post as I was led by God.
Since you aren't "Him" in my life, then you have no right to comment about what I write, or the number of times in a day I may post. I don't comment about your 581 posts in comparison to my 186, do I??? I certainly don't have to justify my being led of God to post to you or anyone else on here.

Thirdly: And, LOL I didn't find your "LOL" part of the post amusing!! Thank you so much for cutting me down, I should have figured it since Chris and Jeannie don't post now that you would go after me at least once more since I stated and agreed with them that there was an evil atmosphere here.

<font color="ff0000">#3 -- "Dissenter's Declaration??? Where on earth did you pick up that phrase?</font>

Someone else said it on the threads, not me. I'm too "busy" with God to go look for it.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

<font color="ff0000">And, #4 -- your statement: "A fool is someone who ever expected anything at all from the elder's repentance BS in the first place"</font>

Roberta, I had hopes of change that day as did others. I trusted Michael Marr to have told me the truth of what was intended to happen. Things didn't happen that way and I discussed those things with him at great length and I didn't remove my posting that I thought GGWO's Elder's Declaration was a whitewash and a bunch of "bull****."

I never called you a fool when I didn't agree with you many times Roberta. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, eh? Consider it that I now truly know where I stand with you.

Maria

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

They were not snide remarks, maria, andnothing I would not have said to your face. My remarks to you are certainly no more snide than what other posts you have made to people tonight.

You really should heed the words of the book you are quoting. And my dear...no one is criticized more on this board than I have been....so, if you plan to dish it out like you have to people here tonight, you must always be prepared to take it with at least a modicum of grace.

Also...this isn't about you. Few people I know ever truly thought the elders would actually say anything substantive. It wasn't in their best interest to be transparent and repentant so they weren't *shrug* I am surprised you didn't see that...most did.

I am weary of this hyperspiritual crap and find I no longer have the patience for the pettiness. Surely you must be far too busy with your studies with God to actually care about what anyone as insignficant as I think.

So...think what you will, play the martyr if you must, it honestly isn'tnecessary...I know how pain can hurt the heart..

"I should have figured it since Chris and Jeannie don't post now that you would go after me at least once more since I stated and agreed with them that there was an evil atmosphere here."

This is simply ridiculous, but I suppose you must believe this too...and btw, I didn't need to ask terra about her post...I already understand that much is happening behind the scenes.

It is sad to see the vindictivness now in you that others have spoken of but I always excused. Please let it go, Maria. You seem so much less entreatable than you once were, ready to pounce on anyone who doesn't agree.

It does get easier to bear, and after awhile you won't need this superiority thing so much to bear the pain of the betrayal. I understand why you are bitter...just remember that it is going to get less painful over time.

It is a process and you'll make it through as long as yoou are entreatable...be careful not to let the hardness in your heart spread or take hold.

I know you are hurting, so I have already forgiven your hatrful words. I will continue to pray that the pain works God's will for you...pain can be a good teacher and God is faithful and will comfort you.

Goodnight...sleep well.

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on January 04, 2005)

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Roberta,

No hurting martyr here, Roberta. I too speak as I see things, just like you do. Its not me that is pouncing on people Roberta. Once in awhile I have stuck up for myself being called an "ugly fat ass" or whatever...and those replies of mine are somewhat snide but more humerous, its how I keep them from tearing me apart on the inside.

If you had posted you were going to take time off and spend it with the Lord, and then only post as God leads, nobody here should have thrown it into your face like you threw it into mine, implying now that I am petty and hyperspiritual...bitter... and even vindictive.

You're wrong!! I love ya, but you're wrong!!
I've had the greatest 2 weeks of my life. I had to quiet myself down because I saw I was getting hateful because of the anger I had inside at that time. I didn't like myself too much and I knew spending more time with the Lord was the only way out. You do get criticized a lot on here Roberta, but some of it you bring on yourself because you jump on people a lot.

I admit my remark about not finding the Dissenter's Declaration phrase because I was "too busy" with God was said in a snotty tone. Actually I did do a search on the words and whoever did call it that phrase from the beginning must have edited their post and removed it, to which I am glad it wasn't the best "phrase" to use.

I purposely chided the two posters who thought they needed to slam my physical appearance here and make other comments late last night. I wasn't slamming Terra_Cognita, I was only saying that people are hinting of things happening and not actually saying anything at all. Carl played those games with people for years. Hints here and there, but nothing said except for something coming down the road. You have friends here in MD that keep you updated on things, I do too, but sometimes they say nothing, because nothing is happening!!! LOL other times they say far too much!

I'm not trying to be more "superior" or "hyperspiritual" than anyone else. I have never thought I was any better than anyone else. Just because I set some goals for my personal life to keep myself before the Lord doesn't mean I'm downing anybody else. If I was I would have said that "EVERYONE HERE ON FACTNET IS SPIRITUALLY OFF AND NEEDS TO DO EXACTLY AS I DO, WHICH IS TO SHOVE YOUR NOSE IN YOUR BIBLE AND KEEP YOUR KNEES ON YOUR CARPET IN PRAYER 24/7~~!!!!!" -- then and only then you could say I was hyperspiritual or tell me to go screw myself!

I find you quick to judge me RJ...and you have twisted my words and taken some of them personal, when they weren't directed at you at all. So it isn't just me who isn't entreatable at times, or, needing to feel superior. Lots of times we see things in others because they are there in us.
Only you know that between you and the Lord its not my place to point fingers and judge anyone's walk.


Sure, I do battle with being angry at times and yes it is mainly over the betrayal. Those are issues I am determined to keep before the Lord because I don't want to fall into that trap again. If anybody knows they have a long way to go still with the healing process, its me.
I'm the first to admit that.

My words to you weren't meant to be hateful I am sorry you took them that way. If I also thought you were an "insignificant" person I would have just ignored your posts from the beginning and just fought with you like everyone else has done. Gee, for someone so insignificant I really like you a lot. Thats the last word I would have thought of to describe my feelings for you as my sister in Christ and my friend.

Maria

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

*sigh*

[british_sponge_bob (british_sponge_bob)]

And the hypocrite "sighs"

Don't let her get to you Maria. She sets herself up to be flamed, she twists people's words to suit herself and agitates people deliberately.

She's a lonely "sick" woman who has nothing else to do all day long but post her obnoxious unwelcome thoughts on Factnet. What will this poor woman do when Factnet dries up and dies out because the people that are Christ-like are backing off from posting on a day to day basis.
She'll have to go back to beating upon her hubby and family I guess. What else would there be for her to do?

Don't be intimidated with her comments about you taking time off not to post. Everyone saw that post, everyone saw you say that you would post as God led. None of us are perfect Maria, even if you did blow it and post in your flesh its far more amusing reading than the likes of her opinionated posts. These self absorbed people make me deathly ill inside. This is what sickens me, believe it or not.

BG

[aurora (aurora)]

I like Roberta's posts and I think she has, along with many others here on factnet, made a difference by regularly contributing.

Golly, let's just calm down now and be civilized (ie refrain from below-the-belt stuff?!)

[isabella (isabella)]

Right, Aurora. I agree. Please, BG, stop calling names and saying mean things. If you don't like Roberta's posts, don't read them..then you won't get sick. I have enjoyed a lot of what Roberta has to say on here. Also, I enjoy Maria's stuff. When two get into a tiff..I just pass over it. We are here to expose a cult which tries to act like a church so they can take advantage of people for their own earthly gain. They use the Word of God to do this and He hates that. Sometimes, they gain respectability and move on to other places without ever acknowledging what they have participated in. See? When they do this, like this guy DeMeo, it's like saying these things they did were right. It was never right and it never will be. But, how can they ever name the stuff? If they did, they would have to find another way to make a living and that would mean getting a real job. No, they're not going to do it...this is too lucrative and too easy. Much easier than showing people goodness and sacrifice by example.

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Okay kids -- sounds like we might need a "Time out" (hear the humor in my voice????) I am fairly new as a "poster" here, and I certainly don't claim to know the nuances in the many already-formed relationships, but IMHO (and it's ONLY my opinion) the hurtful, accusatory stuff doesn't work to further the cause. It might even serve to turn people off who have been offended by the bickering and name-calling they hear in GGWO or heard in TBS. So, my vote would be not to take ourselves too seriously. None of us speaks directly for God (only Carl does that!!!!!!!) and after all...not one individual has "THE" answer for everything, so how 'bout if we play nice here and take it to emails if we need to get personal. AND I don't mean to suggest for a second that we shouldn't have challenges to people's points and hot discussions and disagreements - even arguments - let's just keep the personal hurts &amp; judging off here.

Does anyone agree with me or is there just a whole lot that I'm missing in my evaluation?

(God, if I sound too...well...royal, just tell me to shut up!!!)

[helenaofmass (helenaofmass)]

<font face="arial,helvetica"><font color="0000ff">Since I am from the Northeast I was wondering if anyone could tell me who the affiliate churches are that are involved in the meetings or does anyone not know? I admit to my curiosity getting the better of me here.
Also, do you know who will be at the meeting in February? </font></font>

[isabella (isabella)]

Dear Her Royal Highness,
I agree with you. The personal stuff, like calling people hypocrites and lonley sick woman..who have nothing to do, fat ass, etc..This is uncalled for. It sounds to me like the bantering that must go on inside TBS/GGWO offices (according to some posters here). It doesn't surprise me.

I have to reinterate now:
We are here to expose a cult which tries to act like a church so they can take advantage of people for their own earthly gain. They use the Word of God to do this and He hates that.

Helena of Massachusetts:
All the affiliates are involved in this. They will save themselves so they can continue to do what they do, or not. It must be scary for them because if they actually disaffiliate, they will have to start over and they will have to change all their signs that read: "The Greater Grace World Outreach", after they repent. I wonder if the so called 'Home Base' has any legal ties..I remember during the Doveydenas Case that they said there were none. That was done on purpose, even though the proceeds of the property they sold or collected for, throughout the years, went directly to the Lenox (Baltimore?) coffers. We just have to wait and see what they do in the branches, but don't forget, these people cannot be trusted unless they repent of their part in this cult. They have to name the incidents, including the people they have harmed..maliciously and on purpose. Falling on their knees and sprouting tears is not an option..they have to go to the people they have harmed and, not only apologize, but make amends. That means, giving the money that they stole from them, back to them. It means, admitting to the family members that they have maligned and abused, that they were wrong..let them tell the children what they have done to their Mothers and their Fathers. Let them tell the Mothers and Fathers what they have done to their children. It means that, if they disaffilate, they have to admit that these rediculous doctrines (like one Pastor etc.) were wrong..they have to say why they did what they did and explain to the people, in their care, why they have practiced this deception. They have to tell the people in the pews what is going on. No more, standing in the pulpit and telling the people to dis one another, and to wipe the dirt off their feet, when the only thing those people have done, is to ask an innocent question about their finances and their doctrines.
Anyone who has been in this 'ministry' and is still there, since 1986, knows exactly what is going on. They need to leave, or not.
They need to say what has happened. They need to repent for their own sake! Or they can go to the meeting and act like none of these things have ever happened. They can laugh like bafoons, but they know and God knows what they have done.

May God have mercy on them. I hope they can find their way out of there sometime soon.

Thanks, Isabella

[aurora (aurora)]

I told my friends still in the "church" that I believe now that they are in a cult, an abusive organization. It was extreme, I know. Probably motivated by some anger as well as righteous indignation. I so desire to expose the false doctrines and corrupt foundation but they will have none of it. They will not even look or listen. They tell me I am with Satan and only speaking lies against God's man, God's work (exact words). They are ENTRENCHED as I was for decades. Now I am out of their lives- their choice but it's for the best I think too. It hurts, yeah, but being so totally misunderstood is what eats at me. Time will make that fade, though. It's the crappy doctrine tangled up with God's Word that troubles me more. For deliverance from that, I look to the Holy Spirit, support from family, involvement in a healthy church and, yes, even 'ole factnet for occasional insight.

The affiliates will not break away from the foundation. Why would they? Years and years and years of damaged people ("disgruntled, wounded" they would call them) have been disregarded!! Leaders are thoroughly instructed (by example) in protecting "the ministry" (Don Corleone would say "The Family"). And now it is believed that CHS is a demented old man - yet another reason to "honor" and "cover" and deify their spiritual father in his old age, honor the "heritage of Pastor".

They certainly are not constrained by what God's Word would say to do. Those who think so are naive. The affiliates will say that the emperor has clothes to the very end. I wonder what the end will be...

We should all watch The Godfather trilogy for a refresher course on the character of such an organization. Hey- we could even start a thread devoted to a discussion of the interesting parallels!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

My thinking is that if you think you've found a 'healthy church', you just haven't looked at it hard or long enough. I'm pretty happy to find a few healthy individuals here and there. Or, to be more precise; there are elements of health and disease in us all. We need to hold to the good and reject (at least inwardly) the 'bad'; and what is good for me is not necessarily so for you, and vice-versa. We can't just give up on people or on the general form of 'church', but we can't buy everything hook, line and sinker anywhere. The Spirit and the Word are our guides and protection. A lot of personal time in the Spirit is healthy for anyone. He'll give us proper places of connection if we're humble enough to receive them from Him instead of trying to force things according to our own understanding.

[aurora (aurora)]

I agree, Bob. I'll never sit at a man's feet to "hear the Word" again, never focus on church like I did for all those years. I will never again approach the whole church experience as "an annointing flowing down from the beard of the high priest" again or that, in going, I am "getting under the spout where the blessing comes out". It's a new era in my life, different to say the least. Much more emphasis on my own personal relationship with God and His Word.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Herroyalhighness,

Your words ring true and clear.

I have but one person to blame for getting into and staying in TBS/GGWO, ME! I overlooked, excused, rationalized, just like everyone else. But it was my own failure to listen to the Holy Spirit.

My concern now is that people go on with God, not any MAN! And that none of us determine that there are no good churches anywhere, because there are. As Bob said, none perfect, but there are good ones.

We must not "throw the baby out with the bath." We may have "duped ourselves" (and those of us who were pastors helped to dupe) but we can learn from this, AND MUST!

God truly is NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS, even if that has been grossly misused! And he loves each and every one of us the same, PERFECTLY. We need to love the same. And, as I said on another thread, love does not condone sin, nor does it cover unconfessed sin. There-in lies the mis-appropriation of John's words "Love covers."

The hardest lesson I had to learn was to let my wife talk about all the garbage I had made her "swallow" over the years. And yes, some of it gets repeated because it has not been eliminated yet. But I have learned to gently remind her that we dealt with that, and she is okay with that.

If there is anyone out there who believes I have misused, mislead, or mistreated them, knowingly or unknowlingly, please let me know. We can, and MUST, work through the repentance, grieving, and subsequent healing process together.

God bless,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Thanks, Ralph, well said. This is what I have come to believe regarding Factnet - and regarding the "ministry". This is not something that "God told me" nor anything at all more than my opinion. That said, let me go on (guess I sound a little gun-shy, but I only want the reader to know that I'm only giving my point of view as a human being who was once a part of this group).

Factnet serves several purposes and probably many that it was not originally created for (don't worry, I won't give a comprehensive list). People get a chance to vent/share their experience. At the very least this can be healthy in a cathartic sense and I'll be that some readers have taken these shared experiences and either found an affirmation of sorts of what they went through or others may begin to realize that some of the things they suspected about GGWO (no matter if they are in or out) might just be true.

People have had a wonderful opportunity to reconnect with old friends and/or catch up on news about the lives of people with whom they shared a signficant experience.

Others have gotten ****ed because they are overly sensitive to the negative things being said about individuals or GGWO - maybe because they are still loyal -- but they are challenged to think! That's a good thing.

I also believe that if God really cared so much about putting an end to this ministry HE could do it. (Am I going to get slammed for this one???!!!) This is NOT new, my friends. Nearly since it's inception 40+ years ago there have been decent, God-loving people who have worked to bring it down. It still stands. I'm absolutely NOT saying that what is preached or that the actions of the administration are ordained by God (I personally don't feel that there is much there that is "on" to use a TBS/GGWO term.) But it goes on and has, despite the efforts of many wonderful people over the years.

Does this mean that they have failed? Does it mean that God has failed? Nope. So, is God allowing it? Evidently. So, am I saying that we do nothing? No. Do what you feel you must. For some that will be simply giving answers to those who have ears to hear...'cuz if they aren't ready, they won't/can't hear (I know because there was a time when I could not hear). Others may be more aggressive or may feel called to go directly to Carl or TS or SR or whomever. Perhaps when Carl dies it will become something else. I don't expect it to be something else while he is at the top of it. But God COULD put an end to it this very day if He so chose...couldn't He? Yet that has not happened -- even after the "victory" Betsy D had in Lenox! Why? Perhaps the lessons we have learned about not following a man, about questioning scriptures for ourselves, about not speaking falsely, about going to a brother one-on-one, about being humble, and on and on and on - perhaps these lessons might not have been learned had we not been through the experience of GGWO. Do I believe everyone should get the heck out of there? Yes...but as individuals they have to be brought to that place of choice by a series of events and questions before they will be able to "hear." And we all know that just telling people the truth doesn't get them out, because people are in different stages of being able to recognize truth as truth....remember, they believe that what comes fromt he pulpit is truth....remember when you thought that???

So, just consider for a moment that God might be allowing all of this for reasons that He hasn't sat down to discuss with us!!! In other words, just like Balaam's ass, He can use whatever means at hand to make His truth known to people. Do we just forget it then? I'm not saying that. Do what you feel compelled to do individually...just think about this part of it.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

And that my Dear friend is the key,,,


THINK!

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Oh a big ol' Amen!

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Ralph
When you can apply your new Christianity to Paul Stevens and retract the remark you said to me on the phone Christmas day in regards to his needing to publically repent from the pulpit....then you and I will start to clear up the years of messes YOU created for Nancy and I that will never ever change in people's minds down at GGWO.

You were the pot calling the kettle black demanding a repentance from Paul Stevens publically. You yourself should be in that pulpit repenting if thats the case!! How many lives and relationships did you destroy running your mouth repeating things said to you confidentially??? You, who was a staff pastor who was privy to PRIVATE INTIMATE details of people's lives!!!

What you did with me on the phone was typically GGWO. You bashed a body member that left the ministry. You can go ahead and try to tap dance your way out of this one. I wasn't alone when the phone call came in from your cell phone.

Yes, I am angry at you knowing what you are well capable of doing to people. Yes I too will have to go to God in regards to the way I feel about you, and what you said to me about my pastor. (Paul Stevens). Shows me you haven't changed one stinking bit since you left GGWO. You can fool these people here on factnet all you want, but Nancy and I are not going to be fooled by you again. Not ever.

Maria

[tywint (tywint)]

You are so RIGHT, Maria!

Ralph, I have been in touch with you since you left ggwo concerning the matters that you have mistreated my family with and you have refused to accept responsibility for what happened and only defended yourself.
So what's the story? Will the real Ralph Wells please stand up?
Don't trust this guy.....

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"Don't trust this guy....."

why? specifics? he has done an unforgivable sin?

[maria_t (maria_t)]

HRH
AWESOME POST. Sorry about the "GGWO" lingo, but the word fits it right on this time.

We all learned a lot from our experience at GGWO. Some of us learned painfully at the expense of the leaders there.

It has puzzled me that God has allowed this stuff to go on all these years. For the life of me I couldn't fathom why inside. So many people's lives destroyed that still are not healed and repaired to this day, and seemingly CHS gets "away with murder." Sometimes it just isn't fair, is it.

Many of us that have left are stronger spiritually than we were while we were there. I know in my own life, it has caused me to draw much closer to the Lord than ever before. For that purpose I can thank God for the experiences I had while at GGWO, even though they were excruciatingly painful. I know there is still many area's that God has yet to heal from the wounds incurred there. It truly is a long road of healing as others can attest to, they've been there and they know what all of us that have recently left are going through. Without their support, many of us wouldn't have taken those first steps in walking out those doors forever.

Maria

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

The accusations against Ralph...are either of you going to illuminate us? Since these cryptic accusations have been posted here publically and you have told us not to trust him, hadn't you better tell us why?

Either that or I would think an apology to Ralph might be a good thing.

JMHO

[tywint (tywint)]

Why should I "illuminate" you? Sorry, this fish won't bite....

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Then you should NOT have posted this publically. If I am not to trust someone I want to know why.

[tywint (tywint)]

I think both my post and Maria's were self-explanatory. The problem was explained, then Ralph's response to the problem. Rjfernalld, what exactly do you want?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I really didn't find them self explanatory at all. You have accused someone and I am curious as to what, it really is only that simple.

I do not know this man other than what I have seen written here on FN. Maria says he needs to publically repent, you say he has trashed your family. Not saying he didn't, just asking for more information on which to make a judgement.

I would just need more info to decide is all...geeeeeze sorry I asked. But on the grounds of these two postings it isn't enough for me.

Roberta

[tywint (tywint)]

Rjfernalld, I never said he trashed my family. That was your interpetation of what I said, which was that was he mistreated my family. Please read the posts carefully as to not put words in my mouth. And as I read your posts, I have to either:

1. Dish out my family's juicy details as to satisfy your "curioristy"; or
2. Post an apology to Ralph?

Are you serious?

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Thanks HRH. Your 12:17 post was awesome. Have thought these thoughts many times.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

tywint

Actually I am merely trying to say that without providing a real case against the man, here publically you have deliberatly raised suspicion.

Many who are newly leaving GGWO are afraid of everyone because they too are hurting, as you do seem to be.

It was pointed out to me some weeks ago by another poster here that if we demand accountability from others...which you seem to be doing here...we too must be accountable.

My point is that Ralph and others here reading the thread are deserving of at least enough information to make a proper judgement about this if we are warned not to trust him.

I am sorry I used the word "trashed" I should have said mistreated as you wrote.

I am only saying that your point may be very valid and if so, to bring only an accusation without some additional information to show why he shouldn't be trusted would be the best route to take, or no one will take it seriously.

I am honestly NOT simply writing this to provoke you, t. I only wish to clarify an accusation made. Really...that is all. I think it is important, scriptual and fair to both you and Ralph.

[tywint (tywint)]

I only posted because Ralph first said that if anyone had been mistreated by him to contact him and he would make it right. I refuted that by saying that I already had contacted him about what transpired between my family and him, and he did nothing. My point was not to trust him because he didn't live up to his word. I don't see the point of airing my family's private details about what happened.
And Maria was very clear about her situation. At least I thought so.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Having read back further I see now Ralph's remark, and see that you are in fact refuting it.

I will not comment about Maria's remarks.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

<font color="ff0000"><font size="+1">RALPH WELLS NOW HAS HIS OWN THREAD SO I CUT AND PASTED THE DISCUSSIONS ON HERE ABOUT HIM OVER THERE FOR PEOPLE TO BE THE JUDGE AND JURY.

MARIA</font></font>

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I am sorry to see this.

[kpntreal (kpntreal)]

Let me get this straight....
Maria T suggest that because Ralph Wells says that Paul Stevens should repent, then Ralph Wells "needs to repent".
What a joke!
The main thing mentioned that Ralph should repent of is harshness towards his wife.
And also if he lied to his wife repeatedly publicly joking about her sickness and possible demise while shacking up with another woman.... Oh wait....that was Paul ...wasn't it ?
Thats more of the same mindset employed by TBS/Carl since its inception.
It is obvious that Maria T. now demonizes the dad Carl but worships Paul as her "pastah teeecha"
Common Maria T. evolve a little.
Stop trading in your old idols (Carl) for a new one (Paul).
I can hear her nasty response already.
Perhaps Paul wasn't as honest as he should have been with "his" church......hmmm?
Don't try telling Maria T. that, because afterall
"Never accept an evil report even if its true" (or could save other people from being the target.)

[isabella (isabella)]

Kpntreal,
Don't be so mean. Give Maria time to evolve if she will. In the meantime, back-off a little.
Maria,
Take it easy. Calm down..read the Word..take a nice hot shower and relax.
Isabella

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Isabella, kpntreal isn't being mean...there does come a time when someone must address these issues. If Maria can tell it like she sees it so can everyone else. That can only be considered fair, no?

People who are in the process of 'evolving" need to be rebuked at times and reminded to check themselves. This is especially important for passionate people, as I know well. I needed a good reality check more than once after I left. I was blessed that my exit counselor and my friends who had already been through the process stepped up and said something to me. Their cautions and clarity were invaluable to my healing. It is common for people newly free to feel that they have been healed, but it takes a long time and should not be done without help....hopefully qualified help if possible.

There is a very real danger for people who leave an abusive church to become abusive to others who hurt them, exchange one idol for another, and to be unaware that these things are happening. Some become extremely hyperspiritual and sadly unentreatable, because no one spoke up with a word in season.

That is what stephen and kpntreal have done. They have spoke what others have noticed in a cautionary way.

We are, as Jack so aptly said, responsible for each other.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Yes, RJ, stephen and kpntreal shared their concerns which I noted. I also noted the difference in the tones of both of their posts. Izzy was right, kpntreal was being mean -- to the point of being hateful. Even though the hateful remarks may have been towards me, the hatred that he has for Paul Stevens is far worse, and for that, he needs to go to him.

Kpntreal you didn't thoroughly read my posts in regards to Ralph Wells.

Ralph Wells as a staff pastor at GGWO was/is just as liable for the things done by the leadership there and CHS. Yes, the same accountability Paul Stevens took publically. As a pastor he violated the privileges extended to him in privately counselling people. He violated them by repeating them to others. He had no right to tell me that Paul Stevens needs to publically repent when he himself violated his pastoral counselling responsibilities too. My posting that to Pastor Wells was perhaps upsetting to you, but the facts are the same. Staff person abuse of body members.

For the record, I never idolized CHS. I don't idolize Paul either. I'm far from ignorant as to Paul's past sins, and so are the people that attend FWM now. Nothing has been hidden from anybody that goes there.

Sounds to me, kpntreal, that you have "issues" with Paul Stevens that you need to go to him about instead of attacking me over them. I'm not the God he has to answer to. Frankly, neither are you.

Maria

[arguendo (arguendo)]

For Lana

[trusty (trusty)]

"When will he die, and his name perish?"
6And if he comes to see me, he speaks lies;
His heart gathers iniquity to itself;
When he goes out, he tells it.
7All who hate me whisper together against me;
Against me they devise my hurt.
8"An evil disease," they say, "clings to him.
And now that he lies down, he will rise up no more."
9Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.
10But You, O LORD, be merciful to me, and raise me up,
That I may repay them.
11By this I know that You are well pleased with me,
Because my enemy does not triumph over me.
12As for me, You uphold me in my integrity,
And set me before Your face forever.

And there was a servant of the house of Saul whose name was Ziba. So when they had called him to David, the king said to him, "Are you Ziba?"

He said, "At your service!"

Then the king said, "Is there not still someone of the house of Saul, to whom I may show the kindness of God?"

And Ziba said to the king, "There is still a son of Jonathan who is lame in his feet."

So the king said to him, "Where is he?"

And Ziba said to the king, "Indeed he is in the house of Machir the son of Ammiel, in Lo Debar."

Then King David sent and brought him out of the house of Machir the son of Ammiel, from Lo Debar.

Now when Mephibosheth the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, had come to David, he fell on his face and prostrated himself. Then David said, "Mephibosheth?"

And he answered, "Here is your servant!"

So David said to him, "Do not fear, for I will surely show you kindness for Jonathan your father's sake, and will restore to you all the land of Saul your grandfather; and you shall eat bread at my table continually."
Then he bowed himself, and said, "What is your servant, that you should look upon such a dead dog as I?"

And the king called to Ziba, Saul's servant, and said to him, "I have given to your master's son all that belonged to Saul and to all his house. 10You therefore, and your sons and your servants, shall work the land for him, and you shall bring in the harvest, that your master's son may have food to eat. But Mephibosheth your master's son shall eat bread at my table always." Now Ziba had fifteen sons and twenty servants.
Then Ziba said to the king, "According to all that my lord the king has commanded his servant, so will your servant do."

"As for Mephibosheth," said the king, "he shall eat at my table[z] like one of the king's sons." 12Mephibosheth had a young son whose name was Micha. And all who dwelt in the house of Ziba were servants of Mephibosheth. 13So Mephibosheth dwelt in Jerusalem, for he ate continually at the king's table. And he was lame in both his feet.

It happened after this that the king of the people of Ammon died, and Hanun his son reigned in his place. 2Then David said, "I will show kindness to Hanun the son of Nahash, as his father showed kindness to me."

So David sent by the hand of his servants to comfort him concerning his father. And David's servants came into the land of the people of Ammon. 3And the princes of the people of Ammon said to Hanun their lord, "Do you think that David really honors your father because he has sent comforters to you? Has David not rather sent his servants to you to search the city, to spy it out, and to overthrow it?"

4Therefore Hanun took David's servants, shaved off half of their beards, cut off their garments in the middle, at their buttocks, and sent them away. 5When they told David, he sent to meet them, because the men were greatly ashamed. And the king said, "Wait at Jericho until your beards have grown, and then return."

6When the people of Ammon saw that they had made themselves repulsive to David, the people of Ammon sent and hired the Syrians of Beth Rehob and the Syrians of Zoba, twenty thousand foot soldiers; and from the king of Maacah one thousand men, and from Ish-Tob twelve thousand men. 7Now when David heard of it, he sent Joab and all the army of the mighty men. 8Then the people of Ammon came out and put themselves in battle array at the entrance of the gate. And the Syrians of Zoba, Beth Rehob, Ish-Tob, and Maacah were by themselves in the field.

9When Joab saw that the battle line was against him before and behind, he chose some of Israel's best and put them in battle array against the Syrians. 10And the rest of the people he put under the command of Abishai his brother, that he might set them in battle array against the people of Ammon. 11Then he said, "If the Syrians are too strong for me, then you shall help me; but if the people of Ammon are too strong for you, then I will come and help you. 12Be of good courage, and let us be strong for our people and for the cities of our God. And may the LORD do what is good in His sight."

13So Joab and the people who were with him drew near for the battle against the Syrians, and they fled before him. 14When the people of Ammon saw that the Syrians were fleeing, they also fled before Abishai, and entered the city. So Joab returned from the people of Ammon and went to Jerusalem.

15When the Syrians saw that they had been defeated by Israel, they gathered together. 16Then Hadadezer[aa] sent and brought out the Syrians who were beyond the River,[ab] and they came to Helam. And Shobach the commander of Hadadezer's army went before them. 17When it was told David, he gathered all Israel, crossed over the Jordan, and came to Helam. And the Syrians set themselves in battle array against David and fought with him. 18Then the Syrians fled before Israel; and David killed seven hundred charioteers and forty thousand horsemen of the Syrians, and struck Shobach the commander of their army, who died there. 19And when all the kings who were servants to Hadadezer[ac] saw that they were defeated by Israel, they made peace with Israel and served them. So the Syrians were afraid to help the people of Ammon anymore.

1 It happened in the spring of the year, at the time when kings go out to battle, that David sent Joab and his servants with him, and all Israel; and they destroyed the people of Ammon and besieged Rabbah. But David remained at Jerusalem.

2Then it happened one evening that David arose from his bed and walked on the roof of the king's house. And from the roof he saw a woman bathing, and the woman was very beautiful to behold. 3So David sent and inquired about the woman. And someone said, "Is this not Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?" 4Then David sent messengers, and took her; and she came to him, and he lay with her, for she was cleansed from her impurity; and she returned to her house. 5And the woman conceived; so she sent and told David, and said, "I am with child."

6Then David sent to Joab, saying, "Send me Uriah the Hittite." And Joab sent Uriah to David. 7When Uriah had come to him, David asked how Joab was doing, and how the people were doing, and how the war prospered. 8And David said to Uriah, "Go down to your house and wash your feet." So Uriah departed from the king's house, and a gift of food from the king followed him. 9But Uriah slept at the door of the king's house with all the servants of his lord, and did not go down to his house. 10So when they told David, saying, "Uriah did not go down to his house," David said to Uriah, "Did you not come from a journey? Why did you not go down to your house?"

11And Uriah said to David, "The ark and Israel and Judah are dwelling in tents, and my lord Joab and the servants of my lord are encamped in the open fields. Shall I then go to my house to eat and drink, and to lie with my wife? As you live, and as your soul lives, I will not do this thing."

12Then David said to Uriah, "Wait here today also, and tomorrow I will let you depart." So Uriah remained in Jerusalem that day and the next. 13Now when David called him, he ate and drank before him; and he made him drunk. And at evening he went out to lie on his bed with the servants of his lord, but he did not go down to his house.

14In the morning it happened that David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it by the hand of Uriah. 15And he wrote in the letter, saying, "Set Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retreat from him, that he may be struck down and die." 16So it was, while Joab besieged the city, that he assigned Uriah to a place where he knew there were valiant men. 17Then the men of the city came out and fought with Joab. And some of the people of the servants of David fell; and Uriah the Hittite died also.

18Then Joab sent and told David all the things concerning the war, 19and charged the messenger, saying, "When you have finished telling the matters of the war to the king, 20if it happens that the king's wrath rises, and he says to you: "Why did you approach so near to the city when you fought? Did you not know that they would shoot from the wall? 21Who struck Abimelech the son of Jerubbesheth?[ad] Was it not a woman who cast a piece of a millstone on him from the wall, so that he died in Thebez? Why did you go near the wall?'--then you shall say, "Your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead also."'

22So the messenger went, and came and told David all that Joab had sent by him. 23And the messenger said to David, "Surely the men prevailed against us and came out to us in the field; then we drove them back as far as the entrance of the gate. 24The archers shot from the wall at your servants; and some of the king's servants are dead, and your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead also."

25Then David said to the messenger, "Thus you shall say to Joab: "Do not let this thing displease you, for the sword devours one as well as another. Strengthen your attack against the city, and overthrow it.' So encourage him."

26When the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband. 27And when her mourning was over, David sent and brought her to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.

1 Then the LORD sent Nathan to David. And he came to him, and said to him: "There were two men in one city, one rich and the other poor. 2The rich man had exceedingly many flocks and herds. 3But the poor man had nothing, except one little ewe lamb which he had bought and nourished; and it grew up together with him and with his children. It ate of his own food and drank from his own cup and lay in his bosom; and it was like a daughter to him. 4And a traveler came to the rich man, who refused to take from his own flock and from his own herd to prepare one for the wayfaring man who had come to him; but he took the poor man's lamb and prepared it for the man who had come to him."

5So David's anger was greatly aroused against the man, and he said to Nathan, "As the LORD lives, the man who has done this shall surely die! 6And he shall restore fourfold for the lamb, because he did this thing and because he had no pity."

7Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel: "I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more! 9Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in His sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword; you have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the people of Ammon. 10Now therefore, the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised Me, and have taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your wife.' 11Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I will raise up adversity against you from your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, before the sun."'

13So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD."

And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die." 15Then Nathan departed to his house.

And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it became ill.
The Death of David's Son
16David therefore pleaded with God for the child, and David fasted and went in and lay all night on the ground. 17So the elders of his house arose and went to him, to raise him up from the ground. But he would not, nor did he eat food with them. 18Then on the seventh day it came to pass that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead. For they said, "Indeed, while the child was alive, we spoke to him, and he would not heed our voice. How can we tell him that the child is dead? He may do some harm!"

19When David saw that his servants were whispering, David perceived that the child was dead. Therefore David said to his servants, "Is the child dead?"

And they said, "He is dead."

20So David arose from the ground, washed and anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house; and when he requested, they set food before him, and he ate. 21Then his servants said to him, "What is this that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive, but when the child died, you arose and ate food."

22And he said, "While the child was alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, "Who can tell whether the LORD[ae] will be gracious to me, that the child may live?' 23But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."


24Then David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in to her and lay with her. So she bore a son, and he[af] called his name Solomon. Now the LORD loved him, 25and He sent word by the hand of Nathan the prophet: So he[ag] called his name Jedidiah,[ah] because of the LORD.

26Now Joab fought against Rabbah of the people of Ammon, and took the royal city. 27And Joab sent messengers to David, and said, "I have fought against Rabbah, and I have taken the city's water supply. 28Now therefore, gather the rest of the people together and encamp against the city and take it, lest I take the city and it be called after my name." 29So David gathered all the people together and went to Rabbah, fought against it, and took it. 30Then he took their king's crown from his head. Its weight was a talent of gold, with precious stones. And it was set on David's head. Also he brought out the spoil of the city in great abundance. 31And he brought out the people who were in it, and put them to work with saws and iron picks and iron axes, and made them cross over to the brick works. So he did to all the cities of the people of Ammon. Then David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.

1 After this Absalom the son of David had a lovely sister, whose name was Tamar; and Amnon the son of David loved her. 2Amnon was so distressed over his sister Tamar that he became sick; for she was a virgin. And it was improper for Amnon to do anything to her. 3But Amnon had a friend whose name was Jonadab the son of Shimeah, David's brother. Now Jonadab was a very crafty man. 4And he said to him, "Why are you, the king's son, becoming thinner day after day? Will you not tell me?"

Amnon said to him, "I love Tamar, my brother Absalom's sister."

5So Jonadab said to him, "Lie down on your bed and pretend to be ill. And when your father comes to see you, say to him, "Please let my sister Tamar come and give me food, and prepare the food in my sight, that I may see it and eat it from her hand."' 6Then Amnon lay down and pretended to be ill; and when the king came to see him, Amnon said to the king, "Please let Tamar my sister come and make a couple of cakes for me in my sight, that I may eat from her hand."

7And David sent home to Tamar, saying, "Now go to your brother Amnon's house, and prepare food for him." 8So Tamar went to her brother Amnon's house; and he was lying down. Then she took flour and kneaded it, made cakes in his sight, and baked the cakes. 9And she took the pan and placed them out before him, but he refused to eat. Then Amnon said, "Have everyone go out from me." And they all went out from him. 10Then Amnon said to Tamar, "Bring the food into the bedroom, that I may eat from your hand." And Tamar took the cakes which she had made, and brought them to Amnon her brother in the bedroom. 11Now when she had brought them to him to eat, he took hold of her and said to her, "Come, lie with me, my sister."

12But she answered him, "No, my brother, do not force me, for no such thing should be done in Israel. Do not do this disgraceful thing! 13And I, where could I take my shame? And as for you, you would be like one of the fools in Israel. Now therefore, please speak to the king; for he will not withhold me from you." 14However, he would not heed her voice; and being stronger than she, he forced her and lay with her.

15Then Amnon hated her exceedingly, so that the hatred with which he hated her was greater than the love with which he had loved her. And Amnon said to her, "Arise, be gone!"

16So she said to him, "No, indeed! This evil of sending me away is worse than the other that you did to me."

But he would not listen to her. 17Then he called his servant who attended him, and said, "Here! Put this woman out, away from me, and bolt the door behind her." 18Now she had on a robe of many colors, for the king's virgin daughters wore such apparel. And his servant put her out and bolted the door behind her.

19Then Tamar put ashes on her head, and tore her robe of many colors that was on her, and laid her hand on her head and went away crying bitterly. 20And Absalom her brother said to her, "Has Amnon your brother been with you? But now hold your peace, my sister. He is your brother; do not take this thing to heart." So Tamar remained desolate in her brother Absalom's house.

21But when King David heard of all these things, he was very angry. 22And Absalom spoke to his brother Amnon neither good nor bad. For Absalom hated Amnon, because he had forced his sister Tamar.

23And it came to pass, after two full years, that Absalom had sheepshearers in Baal Hazor, which is near Ephraim; so Absalom invited all the king's sons. 24Then Absalom came to the king and said, "Kindly note, your servant has sheepshearers; please, let the king and his servants go with your servant."

25But the king said to Absalom, "No, my son, let us not all go now, lest we be a burden to you." Then he urged him, but he would not go; and he blessed him.

26Then Absalom said, "If not, please let my brother Amnon go with us."

And the king said to him, "Why should he go with you?" 27But Absalom urged him; so he let Amnon and all the king's sons go with him.

28Now Absalom had commanded his servants, saying, "Watch now, when Amnon's heart is merry with wine, and when I say to you, "Strike Amnon!' then kill him. Do not be afraid. Have I not commanded you? Be courageous and valiant." 29So the servants of Absalom did to Amnon as Absalom had commanded. Then all the king's sons arose, and each one got on his mule and fled.

30And it came to pass, while they were on the way, that news came to David, saying, "Absalom has killed all the king's sons, and not one of them is left!" 31So the king arose and tore his garments and lay on the ground, and all his servants stood by with their clothes torn. 32Then Jonadab the son of Shimeah, David's brother, answered and said, "Let not my lord suppose they have killed all the young men, the king's sons, for only Amnon is dead. For by the command of Absalom this has been determined from the day that he forced his sister Tamar. 33Now therefore, let not my lord the king take the thing to his heart, to think that all the king's sons are dead. For only Amnon is dead."

34Then Absalom fled. And the young man who was keeping watch lifted his eyes and looked, and there, many people were coming from the road on the hillside behind him.[ai] 35And Jonadab said to the king, "Look, the king's sons are coming; as your servant said, so it is." 36So it was, as soon as he had finished speaking, that the king's sons indeed came, and they lifted up their voice and wept. Also the king and all his servants wept very bitterly.

37But Absalom fled and went to Talmai the son of Ammihud, king of Geshur. And David mourned for his son every day. 38So Absalom fled and went to Geshur, and was there three years. 39And King David[aj] longed to go to[ak] Absalom. For he had been comforted concerning Amnon, because he was dead.

1 So Joab the son of Zeruiah perceived that the king's heart was concerned about Absalom. 2And Joab sent to Tekoa and brought from there a wise woman, and said to her, "Please pretend to be a mourner, and put on mourning apparel; do not anoint yourself with oil, but act like a woman who has been mourning a long time for the dead. 3Go to the king and speak to him in this manner." So Joab put the words in her mouth.

4And when the woman of Tekoa spoke[al] to the king, she fell on her face to the ground and prostrated herself, and said, "Help, O king!"

5Then the king said to her, "What troubles you?"

And she answered, "Indeed I am a widow, my husband is dead. 6Now your maidservant had two sons; and the two fought with each other in the field, and there was no one to part them, but the one struck the other and killed him. 7And now the whole family has risen up against your maidservant, and they said, "Deliver him who struck his brother, that we may execute him for the life of his brother whom he killed; and we will destroy the heir also.' So they would extinguish my ember that is left, and leave to my husband neither name nor remnant on the earth."

8Then the king said to the woman, "Go to your house, and I will give orders concerning you."

9And the woman of Tekoa said to the king, "My lord, O king, let the iniquity be on me and on my father's house, and the king and his throne be guiltless."

10So the king said, "Whoever says anything to you, bring him to me, and he shall not touch you anymore."

11Then she said, "Please let the king remember the LORD your God, and do not permit the avenger of blood to destroy anymore, lest they destroy my son."

And he said, "As the LORD lives, not one hair of your son shall fall to the ground."

12Therefore the woman said, "Please, let your maidservant speak another word to my lord the king."

And he said, "Say on."

13So the woman said: "Why then have you schemed such a thing against the people of God? For the king speaks this thing as one who is guilty, in that the king does not bring his banished one home again. 14For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him. 15Now therefore, I have come to speak of this thing to my lord the king because the people have made me afraid. And your maidservant said, "I will now speak to the king; it may be that the king will perform the request of his maidservant. 16For the king will hear and deliver his maidservant from the hand of the man who would destroy me and my son together from the inheritance of God.' 17Your maidservant said, "The word of my lord the king will now be comforting; for as the angel of God, so is my lord the king in discerning good and evil. And may the LORD your God be with you."'

18Then the king answered and said to the woman, "Please do not hide from me anything that I ask you."

And the woman said, "Please, let my lord the king speak."

19So the king said, "Is the hand of Joab with you in all this?" And the woman answered and said, "As you live, my lord the king, no one can turn to the right hand or to the left from anything that my lord the king has spoken. For your servant Joab commanded me, and he put all these words in the mouth of your maidservant. 20To bring about this change of affairs your servant Joab has done this thing; but my lord is wise, according to the wisdom of the angel of God, to know everything that is in the earth."

21And the king said to Joab, "All right, I have granted this thing. Go therefore, bring back the young man Absalom."

22Then Joab fell to the ground on his face and bowed himself, and thanked the king. And Joab said, "Today your servant knows that I have found favor in your sight, my lord, O king, in that the king has fulfilled the request of his servant." 23So Joab arose and went to Geshur, and brought Absalom to Jerusalem. 24And the king said, "Let him return to his own house, but do not let him see my face." So Absalom returned to his own house, but did not see the king's face.

25Now in all Israel there was no one who was praised as much as Absalom for his good looks. From the sole of his foot to the crown of his head there was no blemish in him. 26And when he cut the hair of his head--at the end of every year he cut it because it was heavy on him--when he cut it, he weighed the hair of his head at two hundred shekels according to the king's standard. 27To Absalom were born three sons, and one daughter whose name was Tamar. She was a woman of beautiful appearance.

28And Absalom dwelt two full years in Jerusalem, but did not see the king's face. 29Therefore Absalom sent for Joab, to send him to the king, but he would not come to him. And when he sent again the second time, he would not come. 30So he said to his servants, "See, Joab's field is near mine, and he has barley there; go and set it on fire." And Absalom's servants set the field on fire.

31Then Joab arose and came to Absalom's house, and said to him, "Why have your servants set my field on fire?"

32And Absalom answered Joab, "Look, I sent to you, saying, "Come here, so that I may send you to the king, to say, "Why have I come from Geshur? It would be better for me to be there still."' Now therefore, let me see the king's face; but if there is iniquity in me, let him execute me."

33So Joab went to the king and told him. And when he had called for Absalom, he came to the king and bowed himself on his face to the ground before the king. Then the king kissed Absalom.

1 After this it happened that Absalom provided himself with chariots and horses, and fifty men to run before him. 2Now Absalom would rise early and stand beside the way to the gate. So it was, whenever anyone who had a lawsuit came to the king for a decision, that Absalom would call to him and say, "What city are you from?" And he would say, "Your servant is from such and such a tribe of Israel." 3Then Absalom would say to him, "Look, your case is good and right; but there is no deputy of the king to hear you." 4Moreover Absalom would say, "Oh, that I were made judge in the land, and everyone who has any suit or cause would come to me; then I would give him justice." 5And so it was, whenever anyone came near to bow down to him, that he would put out his hand and take him and kiss him. 6In this manner Absalom acted toward all Israel who came to the king for judgment. So Absalom stole the hearts of the men of Israel.

7Now it came to pass after forty[am] years that Absalom said to the king, "Please, let me go to Hebron and pay the vow which I made to the LORD. 8For your servant took a vow while I dwelt at Geshur in Syria, saying, "If the LORD indeed brings me back to Jerusalem, then I will serve the LORD."'

9And the king said to him, "Go in peace." So he arose and went to Hebron.

10Then Absalom sent spies throughout all the tribes of Israel, saying, "As soon as you hear the sound of the trumpet, then you shall say, "Absalom reigns in Hebron!"' 11And with Absalom went two hundred men invited from Jerusalem, and they went along innocently and did not know anything. 12Then Absalom sent for Ahithophel the Gilonite, David's counselor, from his city--from Giloh--while he offered sacrifices. And the conspiracy grew strong, for the people with Absalom continually increased in number.

13Now a messenger came to David, saying, "The hearts of the men of Israel are with Absalom."

14So David said to all his servants who were with him at Jerusalem, "Arise, and let us flee, or we shall not escape from Absalom. Make haste to depart, lest he overtake us suddenly and bring disaster upon us, and strike the city with the edge of the sword."

15And the king's servants said to the king, "We are your servants, ready to do whatever my lord the king commands." 16Then the king went out with all his household after him. But the king left ten women, concubines, to keep the house. 17And the king went out with all the people after him, and stopped at the outskirts. 18Then all his servants passed before him; and all the Cherethites, all the Pelethites, and all the Gittites, six hundred men who had followed him from Gath, passed before the king.

19Then the king said to Ittai the Gittite, "Why are you also going with us? Return and remain with the king. For you are a foreigner and also an exile from your own place. 20In fact, you came only yesterday. Should I make you wander up and down with us today, since I go I know not where? Return, and take your brethren back. Mercy and truth be with you."

21But Ittai answered the king and said, "As the LORD lives, and as my lord the king lives, surely in whatever place my lord the king shall be, whether in death or life, even there also your servant will be."

22So David said to Ittai, "Go, and cross over." Then Ittai the Gittite and all his men and all the little ones who were with him crossed over. 23And all the country wept with a loud voice, and all the people crossed over. The king himself also crossed over the Brook Kidron, and all the people crossed over toward the way of the wilderness.

24There was Zadok also, and all the Levites with him, bearing the ark of the covenant of God. And they set down the ark of God, and Abiathar went up until all the people had finished crossing over from the city. 25Then the king said to Zadok, "Carry the ark of God back into the city. If I find favor in the eyes of the LORD, He will bring me back and show me both it and His dwelling place. 26But if He says thus: "I have no delight in you,' here I am, let Him do to me as seems good to Him." 27The king also said to Zadok the priest, "Are you not a seer? Return to the city in peace, and your two sons with you, Ahimaaz your son, and Jonathan the son of Abiathar. 28See, I will wait in the plains of the wilderness until word comes from you to inform me." 29Therefore Zadok and Abiathar carried the ark of God back to Jerusalem. And they remained there.

30So David went up by the Ascent of the Mount of Olives, and wept as he went up; and he had his head covered and went barefoot. And all the people who were with him covered their heads and went up, weeping as they went up. 31Then someone told David, saying, "Ahithophel is among the conspirators with Absalom." And David said, "O LORD, I pray, turn the counsel of Ahithophel into foolishness!"

32Now it happened when David had come to the top of the mountain, where he worshiped God--there was Hushai the Archite coming to meet him with his robe torn and dust on his head. 33David said to him, "If you go on with me, then you will become a burden to me. 34But if you return to the city, and say to Absalom, "I will be your servant, O king; as I was your father's servant previously, so I will now also be your servant,' then you may defeat the counsel of Ahithophel for me. 35And do you not have Zadok and Abiathar the priests with you there? Therefore it will be that whatever you hear from the king's house, you shall tell to Zadok and Abiathar the priests. 36Indeed they have there with them their two sons, Ahimaaz, Zadok's son, and Jonathan, Abiathar's son; and by them you shall send me everything you hear."

37So Hushai, David's friend, went into the city. And Absalom came into Jerusalem.

1 When David was a little past the top of the mountain, there was Ziba the servant of Mephibosheth, who met him with a couple of saddled donkeys, and on them two hundred loaves of bread, one hundred clusters of raisins, one hundred summer fruits, and a skin of wine. 2And the king said to Ziba, "What do you mean to do with these?"

So Ziba said, "The donkeys are for the king's household to ride on, the bread and summer fruit for the young men to eat, and the wine for those who are faint in the wilderness to drink."

3Then the king said, "And where is your master's son?"

And Ziba said to the king, "Indeed he is staying in Jerusalem, for he said, "Today the house of Israel will restore the kingdom of my father to me."'

4So the king said to Ziba, "Here, all that belongs to Mephibosheth is yours."

And Ziba said, "I humbly bow before you, that I may find favor in your sight, my lord, O king!"

5Now when King David came to Bahurim, there was a man from the family of the house of Saul, whose name was Shimei the son of Gera, coming from there. He came out, cursing continuously as he came. 6And he threw stones at David and at all the servants of King David. And all the people and all the mighty men were on his right hand and on his left. 7Also Shimei said thus when he cursed: "Come out! Come out! You bloodthirsty man, you rogue! 8The LORD has brought upon you all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose place you have reigned; and the LORD has delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom your son. So now you are caught in your own evil, because you are a bloodthirsty man!"

9Then Abishai the son of Zeruiah said to the king, "Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? Please, let me go over and take off his head!"

10But the king said, "What have I to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah? So let him curse, because the LORD has said to him, "Curse David.' Who then shall say, "Why have you done so?"'

11And David said to Abishai and all his servants, "See how my son who came from my own body seeks my life. How much more now may this Benjamite? Let him alone, and let him curse; for so the LORD has ordered him. 12It may be that the LORD will look on my affliction,[an] and that the LORD will repay me with good for his cursing this day." 13And as David and his men went along the road, Shimei went along the hillside opposite him and cursed as he went, threw stones at him and kicked up dust. 14Now the king and all the people who were with him became weary; so they refreshed themselves there.

15Meanwhile Absalom and all the people, the men of Israel, came to Jerusalem; and Ahithophel was with him. 16And so it was, when Hushai the Archite, David's friend, came to Absalom, that Hushai said to Absalom, "Long live the king! Long live the king!"

17So Absalom said to Hushai, "Is this your loyalty to your friend? Why did you not go with your friend?"

18And Hushai said to Absalom, "No, but whom the LORD and this people and all the men of Israel choose, his I will be, and with him I will remain. 19"Furthermore, whom should I serve? Should I not serve in the presence of his son? As I have served in your father's presence, so will I be in your presence."

20Then Absalom said to Ahithophel, "Give advice as to what we should do."

21And Ahithophel said to Absalom, "Go in to your father's concubines, whom he has left to keep the house; and all Israel will hear that you are abhorred by your father. Then the hands of all who are with you will be strong." 22So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the top of the house, and Absalom went in to his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel.

23Now the advice of Ahithophel, which he gave in those days, was as if one had inquired at the oracle of God. So was all the advice of Ahithophel both with David and with Absalom.

1 Moreover Ahithophel said to Absalom, "Now let me choose twelve thousand men, and I will arise and pursue David tonight. 2I will come upon him while he is weary and weak, and make him afraid. And all the people who are with him will flee, and I will strike only the king. 3Then I will bring back all the people to you. When all return except the man whom you seek, all the people will be at peace." 4And the saying pleased Absalom and all the elders of Israel.


5Then Absalom said, "Now call Hushai the Archite also, and let us hear what he says too." 6And when Hushai came to Absalom, Absalom spoke to him, saying, "Ahithophel has spoken in this manner. Shall we do as he says? If not, speak up."

7So Hushai said to Absalom: "The advice that Ahithophel has given is not good at this time. 8For," said Hushai, "you know your father and his men, that they are mighty men, and they are enraged in their minds, like a bear robbed of her cubs in the field; and your father is a man of war, and will not camp with the people. 9Surely by now he is hidden in some pit, or in some other place. And it will be, when some of them are overthrown at the first, that whoever hears it will say, "There is a slaughter among the people who follow Absalom.' 10And even he who is valiant, whose heart is like the heart of a lion, will melt completely. For all Israel knows that your father is a mighty man, and those who are with him are valiant men. 11Therefore I advise that all Israel be fully gathered to you, from Dan to Beersheba, like the sand that is by the sea for multitude, and that you go to battle in person. 12So we will come upon him in some place where he may be found, and we will fall on him as the dew falls on the ground. And of him and all the men who are with him there shall not be left so much as one. 13Moreover, if he has withdrawn into a city, then all Israel shall bring ropes to that city; and we will pull it into the river, until there is not one small stone found there."

14So Absalom and all the men of Israel said, "The advice of Hushai the Archite is better than the advice of Ahithophel." For the LORD had purposed to defeat the good advice of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring disaster on Absalom.

15Then Hushai said to Zadok and Abiathar the priests, "Thus and so Ahithophel advised Absalom and the elders of Israel, and thus and so I have advised. 16Now therefore, send quickly and tell David, saying, "Do not spend this night in the plains of the wilderness, but speedily cross over, lest the king and all the people who are with him be swallowed up."' 17Now Jonathan and Ahimaaz stayed at En Rogel, for they dared not be seen coming into the city; so a female servant would come and tell them, and they would go and tell King David. 18Nevertheless a lad saw them, and told Absalom. But both of them went away quickly and came to a man's house in Bahurim, who had a well in his court; and they went down into it. 19Then the woman took and spread a covering over the well's mouth, and spread ground grain on it; and the thing was not known. 20And when Absalom's servants came to the woman at the house, they said, "Where are Ahimaaz and Jonathan?"

So the woman said to them, "They have gone over the water brook."

And when they had searched and could not find them, they returned to Jerusalem. 21Now it came to pass, after they had departed, that they came up out of the well and went and told King David, and said to David, "Arise and cross over the water quickly. For thus has Ahithophel advised against you." 22So David and all the people who were with him arose and crossed over the Jordan. By morning light not one of them was left who had not gone over the Jordan.

23Now when Ahithophel saw that his advice was not followed, he saddled a donkey, and arose and went home to his house, to his city. Then he put his household in order, and hanged himself, and died; and he was buried in his father's tomb.

24Then David went to Mahanaim. And Absalom crossed over the Jordan, he and all the men of Israel with him. 25And Absalom made Amasa captain of the army instead of Joab. This Amasa was the son of a man whose name was Jithra,[ao] an Israelite,[ap] who had gone in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister of Zeruiah, Joab's mother. 26So Israel and Absalom encamped in the land of Gilead.

27Now it happened, when David had come to Mahanaim, that Shobi the son of Nahash from Rabbah of the people of Ammon, Machir the son of Ammiel from Lo Debar, and Barzillai the Gileadite from Rogelim, 28brought beds and basins, earthen vessels and wheat, barley and flour, parched grain and beans, lentils and parched seeds, 29honey and curds, sheep and cheese of the herd, for David and the people who were with him to eat. For they said, "The people are hungry and weary and thirsty in the wilderness."

1 And David numbered the people who were with him, and set captains of thousands and captains of hundreds over them. 2Then David sent out one third of the people under the hand of Joab, one third under the hand of Abishai the son of Zeruiah, Joab's brother, and one third under the hand of Ittai the Gittite. And the king said to the people, "I also will surely go out with you myself."

3But the people answered, "You shall not go out! For if we flee away, they will not care about us; nor if half of us die, will they care about us. But you are worth ten thousand of us now. For you are now more help to us in the city."

4Then the king said to them, "Whatever seems best to you I will do." So the king stood beside the gate, and all the people went out by hundreds and by thousands. 5Now the king had commanded Joab, Abishai, and Ittai, saying, "Deal gently for my sake with the young man Absalom." And all the people heard when the king gave all the captains orders concerning Absalom.

6So the people went out into the field of battle against Israel. And the battle was in the woods of Ephraim. 7The people of Israel were overthrown there before the servants of David, and a great slaughter of twenty thousand took place there that day. 8For the battle there was scattered over the face of the whole countryside, and the woods devoured more people that day than the sword devoured.

9Then Absalom met the servants of David. Absalom rode on a mule. The mule went under the thick boughs of a great terebinth tree, and his head caught in the terebinth; so he was left hanging between heaven and earth. And the mule which was under him went on. 10Now a certain man saw it and told Joab, and said, "I just saw Absalom hanging in a terebinth tree!"

11So Joab said to the man who told him, "You just saw him! And why did you not strike him there to the ground? I would have given you ten shekels of silver and a belt."

12But the man said to Joab, "Though I were to receive a thousand shekels of silver in my hand, I would not raise my hand against the king's son. For in our hearing the king commanded you and Abishai and Ittai, saying, "Beware lest anyone touch the young man Absalom!'[aq] 13Otherwise I would have dealt falsely against my own life. For there is nothing hidden from the king, and you yourself would have set yourself against me."

14Then Joab said, "I cannot linger with you." And he took three spears in his hand and thrust them through Absalom's heart, while he was still alive in the midst of the terebinth tree. 15And ten young men who bore Joab's armor surrounded Absalom, and struck and killed him.

16So Joab blew the trumpet, and the people returned from pursuing Israel. For Joab held back the people. 17And they took Absalom and cast him into a large pit in the woods, and laid a very large heap of stones over him. Then all Israel fled, everyone to his tent.

18Now Absalom in his lifetime had taken and set up a pillar for himself, which is in the King's Valley. For he said, "I have no son to keep my name in remembrance." He called the pillar after his own name. And to this day it is called Absalom's Monument.


19Then Ahimaaz the son of Zadok said, "Let me run now and take the news to the king, how the LORD has avenged him of his enemies."

20And Joab said to him, "You shall not take the news this day, for you shall take the news another day. But today you shall take no news, because the king's son is dead." 21Then Joab said to the Cu****e, "Go, tell the king what you have seen." So the Cu****e bowed himself to Joab and ran.

22And Ahimaaz the son of Zadok said again to Joab, "But whatever happens, please let me also run after the Cu****e."

So Joab said, "Why will you run, my son, since you have no news ready?"

23"But whatever happens," he said, "let me run."

So he said to him, "Run." Then Ahimaaz ran by way of the plain, and outran the Cu****e.

24Now David was sitting between the two gates. And the watchman went up to the roof over the gate, to the wall, lifted his eyes and looked, and there was a man, running alone. 25Then the watchman cried out and told the king. And the king said, "If he is alone, there is news in his mouth." And he came rapidly and drew near.

26Then the watchman saw another man running, and the watchman called to the gatekeeper and said, "There is another man, running alone!"

And the king said, "He also brings news."

27So the watchman said, "I think the running of the first is like the running of Ahimaaz the son of Zadok."

And the king said, "He is a good man, and comes with good news."

28So Ahimaaz called out and said to the king, "All is well!" Then he bowed down with his face to the earth before the king, and said, "Blessed be the LORD your God, who has delivered up the men who raised their hand against my lord the king!"

29The king said, "Is the young man Absalom safe?"

Ahimaaz answered, "When Joab sent the king's servant and me your servant, I saw a great tumult, but I did not know what it was about."

30And the king said, "Turn aside and stand here." So he turned aside and stood still.

31Just then the Cu****e came, and the Cu****e said, "There is good news, my lord the king! For the LORD has avenged you this day of all those who rose against you."

32And the king said to the Cu****e, "Is the young man Absalom safe?"

So the Cu****e answered, "May the enemies of my lord the king, and all who rise against you to do harm, be like that young man!"

33Then the king was deeply moved, and went up to the chamber over the gate, and wept. And as he went, he said thus: "O my son Absalom--my son, my son Absalom--if only I had died in your place! O Absalom my son, my son!"
2 Samuel 19
David Returns to Jerusalem
1 And Joab was told, "Behold, the king is weeping and mourning for Absalom." 2So the victory that day was turned into mourning for all the people. For the people heard it said that day, "The king is grieved for his son." 3And the people stole back into the city that day, as people who are ashamed steal away when they flee in battle. 4But the king covered his face, and the king cried out with a loud voice, "O my son Absalom! O Absalom, my son, my son!"

5Then Joab came into the house to the king, and said, "Today you have disgraced all your servants who today have saved your life, the lives of your sons and daughters, the lives of your wives and the lives of your concubines, 6in that you love your enemies and hate your friends. For you have declared today that you regard neither princes nor servants; for today I perceive that if Absalom had lived and all of us had died today, then it would have pleased you well. 7Now therefore, arise, go out and speak comfort to your servants. For I swear by the LORD, if you do not go out, not one will stay with you this night. And that will be worse for you than all the evil that has befallen you from your youth until now." 8Then the king arose and sat in the gate. And they told all the people, saying, "There is the king, sitting in the gate." So all the people came before the king.

For everyone of Israel had fled to his tent.
9Now all the people were in a dispute throughout all the tribes of Israel, saying, "The king saved us from the hand of our enemies, he delivered us from the hand of the Philistines, and now he has fled from the land because of Absalom. 10But Absalom, whom we anointed over us, has died in battle. Now therefore, why do you say nothing about bringing back the king?"

11So King David sent to Zadok and Abiathar the priests, saying, "Speak to the elders of Judah, saying, "Why are you the last to bring the king back to his house, since the words of all Israel have come to the king, to his very house? 12You are my brethren, you are my bone and my flesh. Why then are you the last to bring back the king?' 13And say to Amasa, "Are you not my bone and my flesh? God do so to me, and more also, if you are not commander of the army before me continually in place of Joab."' 14So he swayed the hearts of all the men of Judah, just as the heart of one man, so that they sent this word to the king: "Return, you and all your servants!"

15Then the king returned and came to the Jordan. And Judah came to Gilgal, to go to meet the king, to escort the king across the Jordan. 16And Shimei the son of Gera, a Benjamite, who was from Bahurim, hurried and came down with the men of Judah to meet King David. 17There were a thousand men of Benjamin with him, and Ziba the servant of the house of Saul, and his fifteen sons and his twenty servants with him; and they went over the Jordan before the king. 18Then a ferryboat went across to carry over the king's household, and to do what he thought good.


19Then he said to the king, "Do not let my lord impute iniquity to me, or remember what wrong your servant did on the day that my lord the king left Jerusalem, that the king should take it to heart. 20For I, your servant, know that I have sinned. Therefore here I am, the first to come today of all the house of Joseph to go down to meet my lord the king."

21But Abishai the son of Zeruiah answered and said, "Shall not Shimei be put to death for this, because he cursed the LORD's anointed?"

22And David said, "What have I to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah, that you should be adversaries to me today? Shall any man be put to death today in Israel? For do I not know that today I am king over Israel?" 23Therefore the king said to Shimei, "You shall not die." And the king swore to him.


24Now Mephibosheth the son of Saul came down to meet the king. And he had not cared for his feet, nor trimmed his mustache, nor washed his clothes, from the day the king departed until the day he returned in peace. 25So it was, when he had come to Jerusalem to meet the king, that the king said to him, "Why did you not go with me, Mephibosheth?"

26And he answered, "My lord, O king, my servant deceived me. For your servant said, "I will saddle a donkey for myself, that I may ride on it and go to the king,' because your servant is lame. 27And he has slandered your servant to my lord the king, but my lord the king is like the angel of God. Therefore do what is good in your eyes. 28For all my father's house were but dead men before my lord the king. Yet you set your servant among those who eat at your own table. Therefore what right have I still to cry out anymore to the king?"

29So the king said to him, "Why do you speak anymore of your matters? I have said, "You and Ziba divide the land."'

30Then Mephibosheth said to the king, "Rather, let him take it all, inasmuch as my lord the king has come back in peace to his own house."


31And Barzillai the Gileadite came down from Rogelim and went across the Jordan with the king, to escort him across the Jordan. 32Now Barzillai was a very aged man, eighty years old. And he had provided the king with supplies while he stayed at Mahanaim, for he was a very rich man. 33And the king said to Barzillai, "Come across with me, and I will provide for you while you are with me in Jerusalem."

34But Barzillai said to the king, "How long have I to live, that I should go up with the king to Jerusalem? 35I am today eighty years old. Can I discern between the good and bad? Can your servant taste what I eat or what I drink? Can I hear any longer the voice of singing men and singing women? Why then should your servant be a further burden to my lord the king? 36Your servant will go a little way across the Jordan with the king. And why should the king repay me with such a reward? 37Please let your servant turn back again, that I may die in my own city, near the grave of my father and mother. But here is your servant Chimham; let him cross over with my lord the king, and do for him what seems good to you."

38And the king answered, "Chimham shall cross over with me, and I will do for him what seems good to you. Now whatever you request of me, I will do for you." 39Then all the people went over the Jordan. And when the king had crossed over, the king kissed Barzillai and blessed him, and he returned to his own place.


40Now the king went on to Gilgal, and Chimham[ar] went on with him. And all the people of Judah escorted the king, and also half the people of Israel. 41Just then all the men of Israel came to the king, and said to the king, "Why have our brethren, the men of Judah, stolen you away and brought the king, his household, and all David's men with him across the Jordan?"

42So all the men of Judah answered the men of Israel, "Because the king is a close relative of ours. Why then are you angry over this matter? Have we ever eaten at the king's expense? Or has he given us any gift?"

43And the men of Israel answered the men of Judah, and said, "We have ten shares in the king; therefore we also have more right to David than you. Why then do you despise us--were we not the first to advise bringing back our king?"

Yet the words of the men of Judah were fiercer than the words of the men of Israel.

1 And there happened to be there a rebel,[as] whose name was Sheba the son of Bichri, a Benjamite. And he blew a trumpet, and said:
"We have no share in David,
Nor do we have inheritance in the son of Jesse;
Every man to his tents, O Israel!"

So every man of Israel deserted David, and followed Sheba the son of Bichri. But the men of Judah, from the Jordan as far as Jerusalem, remained loyal to their king.

3Now David came to his house at Jerusalem. And the king took the ten women, his concubines whom he had left to keep the house, and put them in seclusion and supported them, but did not go in to them. So they were shut up to the day of their death, living in widowhood.

4And the king said to Amasa, "Assemble the men of Judah for me within three days, and be present here yourself." 5So Amasa went to assemble the men of Judah. But he delayed longer than the set time which David had appointed him. 6And David said to Abishai, "Now Sheba the son of Bichri will do us more harm than Absalom. Take your lord's servants and pursue him, lest he find for himself fortified cities, and escape us." 7So Joab's men, with the Cherethites, the Pelethites, and all the mighty men, went out after him. And they went out of Jerusalem to pursue Sheba the son of Bichri. 8When they were at the large stone which is in Gibeon, Amasa came before them. Now Joab was dressed in battle armor; on it was a belt with a sword fastened in its sheath at his hips; and as he was going forward, it fell out. 9Then Joab said to Amasa, "Are you in health, my brother?" And Joab took Amasa by the beard with his right hand to kiss him. 10But Amasa did not notice the sword that was in Joab's hand. And he struck him with it in the stomach, and his entrails poured out on the ground; and he did not strike him again. Thus he died.

Then Joab and Abishai his brother pursued Sheba the son of Bichri. 11Meanwhile one of Joab's men stood near Amasa, and said, "Whoever favors Joab and whoever is for David--follow Joab!" 12But Amasa wallowed in his blood in the middle of the highway. And when the man saw that all the people stood still, he moved Amasa from the highway to the field and threw a garment over him, when he saw that everyone who came upon him halted. 13When he was removed from the highway, all the people went on after Joab to pursue Sheba the son of Bichri.

14And he went through all the tribes of Israel to Abel and Beth Maachah and all the Berites. So they were gathered together and also went after Sheba.[at] 15Then they came and besieged him in Abel of Beth Maachah; and they cast up a siege mound against the city, and it stood by the rampart. And all the people who were with Joab battered the wall to throw it down.

16Then a wise woman cried out from the city, "Hear, hear! Please say to Joab, "Come nearby, that I may speak with you."' 17When he had come near to her, the woman said, "Are you Joab?"

He answered, "I am."

Then she said to him, "Hear the words of your maidservant."

And he answered, "I am listening."

18So she spoke, saying, "They used to talk in former times, saying, "They shall surely seek guidance at Abel,' and so they would end disputes. 19I am among the peaceable and faithful in Israel. You seek to destroy a city and a mother in Israel. Why would you swallow up the inheritance of the LORD?"

20And Joab answered and said, "Far be it, far be it from me, that I should swallow up or destroy! 21That is not so. But a man from the mountains of Ephraim, Sheba the son of Bichri by name, has raised his hand against the king, against David. Deliver him only, and I will depart from the city."

So the woman said to Joab, "Watch, his head will be thrown to you over the wall." 22Then the woman in her wisdom went to all the people. And they cut off the head of Sheba the son of Bichri, and threw it out to Joab. Then he blew a trumpet, and they withdrew from the city, every man to his tent. So Joab returned to the king at Jerusalem.

23And Joab was over all the army of Israel; Benaiah the son of Jehoiada was over the Cherethites and the Pelethites; 24Adoram was in charge of revenue; Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud was recorder; 25Sheva was scribe; Zadok and Abiathar were the priests; 26and Ira the Jairite was a chief minister under David.

1 Now there was a famine in the days of David for three years, year after year; and David inquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, "It is because of Saul and his bloodthirsty house, because he killed the Gibeonites." 2So the king called the Gibeonites and spoke to them. Now the Gibeonites were not of the children of Israel, but of the remnant of the Amorites; the children of Israel had sworn protection to them, but Saul had sought to kill them in his zeal for the children of Israel and Judah.

3Therefore David said to the Gibeonites, "What shall I do for you? And with what shall I make atonement, that you may bless the inheritance of the LORD?"

4And the Gibeonites said to him, "We will have no silver or gold from Saul or from his house, nor shall you kill any man in Israel for us."

So he said, "Whatever you say, I will do for you."

5Then they answered the king, "As for the man who consumed us and plotted against us, that we should be destroyed from remaining in any of the territories of Israel, 6let seven men of his descendants be delivered to us, and we will hang them before the LORD in Gibeah of Saul, whom the LORD chose."

And the king said, "I will give them."

7But the king spared Mephibosheth the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, because of the LORD's oath that was between them, between David and Jonathan the son of Saul. 8So the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bore to Saul, and the five sons of Michal[au] the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite; 9and he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them on the hill before the LORD. So they fell, all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest, in the first days, in the beginning of barley harvest.

10Now Rizpah the daughter of Aiah took sackcloth and spread it for herself on the rock, from the beginning of harvest until the late rains poured on them from heaven. And she did not allow the birds of the air to rest on them by day nor the beasts of the field by night.

11And David was told what Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, the concubine of Saul, had done. 12Then David went and took the bones of Saul, and the bones of Jonathan his son, from the men of Jabesh Gilead who had stolen them from the street of Beth Shan,[av] where the Philistines had hung them up, after the Philistines had struck down Saul in Gilboa. 13So he brought up the bones of Saul and the bones of Jonathan his son from there; and they gathered the bones of those who had been hanged. 14They buried the bones of Saul and Jonathan his son in the country of Benjamin in Zelah, in the tomb of Kish his father. So they performed all that the king commanded. And after that God heeded the prayer for the land.


15When the Philistines were at war again with Israel, David and his servants with him went down and fought against the Philistines; and David grew faint. 16Then Ishbi-Benob, who was one of the sons of the giant, the weight of whose bronze spear was three hundred shekels, who was bearing a new sword, thought he could kill David. 17But Abishai the son of Zeruiah came to his aid, and struck the Philistine and killed him. Then the men of David swore to him, saying, "You shall go out no more with us to battle, lest you quench the lamp of Israel."

18Now it happened afterward that there was again a battle with the Philistines at Gob. Then Sibbechai the Hushathite killed Saph,[aw] who was one of the sons of the giant. 19Again there was war at Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaare-Oregim[ax] the Bethlehemite killed the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver's beam.

20Yet again there was war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, who had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number; and he also was born to the giant. 21So when he defied Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimea,[ay] David's brother, killed him.

22These four were born to the giant in Gath, and fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants.
Then David spoke to the LORD the words of this song, on the day when the LORD had delivered him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul. 2And he said:[az]
"The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer;
3The God of my strength, in whom I will trust;
My shield and the horn of my salvation,
My stronghold and my refuge;
My Savior, You save me from violence.
4I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised;
So shall I be saved from my enemies.
5"When the waves of death surrounded me,
The floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
6The sorrows of Sheol surrounded me;
The snares of death confronted me.
7In my distress I called upon the LORD,
And cried out to my God;
He heard my voice from His temple,
And my cry entered His ears.
8"Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven[ba] quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen[bb] upon the wings of the wind.
12He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.
14"The LORD thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the LORD,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.
17"He sent from above, He took me,
He drew me out of many waters.
18He delivered me from my strong enemy,
From those who hated me;
For they were too strong for me.
19They confronted me in the day of my calamity,
But the LORD was my support.
20He also brought me out into a broad place;
He delivered me because He delighted in me.
21"The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness;
According to the cleanness of my hands
He has recompensed me.
22For I have kept the ways of the LORD,
And have not wickedly departed from my God.
23For all His judgments were before me;
And as for His statutes, I did not depart from them.
24I was also blameless before Him,
And I kept myself from my iniquity.
25Therefore the LORD has recompensed me according to my righteousness,
According to my cleanness in His eyes.[bc]
26"With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful;
With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless;
27With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.
28You will save the humble people;
But Your eyes are on the haughty, that You may bring them down.
29"For You are my lamp, O LORD;
The LORD shall enlighten my darkness.
30For by You I can run against a troop;
By my God I can leap over a wall.
31As for God, His way is perfect;
The word of the LORD is proven;
He is a shield to all who trust in Him.
32"For who is God, except the LORD?
And who is a rock, except our God?
33God is my strength and power,[bd]
And He makes my[be] way perfect.
34He makes my[bf] feet like the feet of deer,
And sets me on my high places.
35He teaches my hands to make war,
So that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.
36"You have also given me the shield of Your salvation;
Your gentleness has made me great.
37You enlarged my path under me;
So my feet did not slip.
38"I have pursued my enemies and destroyed them;
Neither did I turn back again till they were destroyed.
39And I have destroyed them and wounded them,
So that they could not rise;
They have fallen under my feet.
40For You have armed me with strength for the battle;
You have subdued under me those who rose against me.
41You have also given me the necks of my enemies,
So that I destroyed those who hated me.
42They looked, but there was none to save;
Even to the LORD, but He did not answer them.
43Then I beat them as fine as the dust of the earth;
I trod them like dirt in the streets,
And I spread them out.
44"You have also delivered me from the strivings of my people;
You have kept me as the head of the nations.
A people I have not known shall serve me.
45The foreigners submit to me;
As soon as they hear, they obey me.
46The foreigners fade away,
And come frightened[bg] from their hideouts.
47"The LORD lives!
Blessed be my Rock!
Let God be exalted,
The Rock of my salvation!
48It is God who avenges me,
And subdues the peoples under me;
49He delivers me from my enemies.
You also lift me up above those who rise against me;
You have delivered me from the violent man.
50Therefore I will give thanks to You, O LORD, among the Gentiles,
And sing praises to Your name.
51He is the tower of salvation to His king,
And shows mercy to His anointed,
To David and his descendants forevermore."

1 Now these are the last words of David.
Thus says David the son of Jesse;
Thus says the man raised up on high,
The anointed of the God of Jacob,
And the sweet psalmist of Israel:
2"The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,
And His word was on my tongue.
3The God of Israel said,
The Rock of Israel spoke to me:
"He who rules over men must be just,
Ruling in the fear of God.
4And he shall be like the light of the morning when the sun rises,
A morning without clouds,
Like the tender grass springing out of the earth,
By clear shining after rain.'
5"Although my house is not so with God,
Yet He has made with me an everlasting covenant,
Ordered in all things and secure.
For this is all my salvation and all my desire;
Will He not make it increase?
6But the sons of rebellion shall all be as thorns thrust away,
Because they cannot be taken with hands.
7But the man who touches them
Must be armed with iron and the shaft of a spear,
And they shall be utterly burned with fire in their place."

These are the names of the mighty men whom David had: Josheb-Basshebeth[bh] the Tachmonite, chief among the captains.[bi] He was called Adino the Eznite, because he had killed eight hundred men at one time. 9And after him was Eleazar the son of Dodo,[bj] the Ahohite, one of the three mighty men with David when they defied the Philistines who were gathered there for battle, and the men of Israel had retreated. 10He arose and attacked the Philistines until his hand was weary, and his hand stuck to the sword. The LORD brought about a great victory that day; and the people returned after him only to plunder. 11And after him was Shammah the son of Agee the Hararite. The Philistines had gathered together into a troop where there was a piece of ground full of lentils. So the people fled from the Philistines. 12But he stationed himself in the middle of the field, defended it, and killed the Philistines. So the LORD brought about a great victory.

13Then three of the thirty chief men went down at harvest time and came to David at the cave of Adullam. And the troop of Philistines encamped in the Valley of Rephaim. 14David was then in the stronghold, and the garrison of the Philistines was then in Bethlehem. 15And David said with longing, "Oh, that someone would give me a drink of the water from the well of Bethlehem, which is by the gate!" 16So the three mighty men broke through the camp of the Philistines, drew water from the well of Bethlehem that was by the gate, and took it and brought it to David. Nevertheless he would not drink it, but poured it out to the LORD. 17And he said, "Far be it from me, O LORD, that I should do this! Is this not the blood of the men who went in jeopardy of their lives?" Therefore he would not drink it.

Now Abishai the brother of Joab, the son of Zeruiah, was chief of another three.[bk] He lifted his spear against three hundred men, killed them, and won a name among these three. 19Was he not the most honored of three? Therefore he became their captain. However, he did not attain to the first three.

20Benaiah was the son of Jehoiada, the son of a valiant man from Kabzeel, who had done many deeds. He had killed two lion-like heroes of Moab. He also had gone down and killed a lion in the midst of a pit on a snowy day. 21And he killed an Egyptian, a spectacular man. The Egyptian had a spear in his hand; so he went down to him with a staff, wrested the spear out of the Egyptian's hand, and killed him with his own spear. 22These things Benaiah the son of Jehoiada did, and won a name among three mighty men. 23He was more honored than the thirty, but he did not attain to the first three. And David appointed him over his guard.

24Asahel the brother of Joab was one of the thirty; Elhanan the son of Dodo of Bethlehem, 25Shammah the Harodite, Elika the Harodite, 26Helez the Paltite, Ira the son of Ikkesh the Tekoite, 27Abiezer the Anathothite, Mebunnai the Hushathite, 28Zalmon the Ahohite, Maharai the Netophathite, 29Heleb the son of Baanah (the Netophathite), Ittai the son of Ribai from Gibeah of the children of Benjamin, 30Benaiah a Pirathonite, Hiddai from the brooks of Gaash, 31Abi-Albon the Arbathite, Azmaveth the Barhumite, 32Eliahba the Shaalbonite (of the sons of Jashen), Jonathan, 33Shammah the Hararite, Ahiam the son of Sharar the Hararite, 34Eliphelet the son of Ahasbai, the son of the Maachathite, Eliam the son of Ahithophel the Gilonite, 35Hezrai[bl] the Carmelite, Paarai the Arbite, 36Igal the son of Nathan of Zobah, Bani the Gadite, 37Zelek the Ammonite, Naharai the Beerothite (armorbearer of Joab the son of Zeruiah), 38Ira the Ithrite, Gareb the Ithrite, 39and Uriah the Hittite: thirty-seven in all.
Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."

2So the king said to Joab the commander of the army who was with him, "Now go throughout all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and count the people, that I may know the number of the people."

3And Joab said to the king, "Now may the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times more than there are, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king desire this thing?" 4Nevertheless the king's word prevailed against Joab and against the captains of the army. Therefore Joab and the captains of the army went out from the presence of the king to count the people of Israel.

5And they crossed over the Jordan and camped in Aroer, on the right side of the town which is in the midst of the ravine of Gad, and toward Jazer. 6Then they came to Gilead and to the land of Tahtim Hodshi; they came to Dan Jaan and around to Sidon; 7and they came to the stronghold of Tyre and to all the cities of the Hivites and the Canaanites. Then they went out to South Judah as far as Beersheba. 8So when they had gone through all the land, they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. 9Then Joab gave the sum of the number of the people to the king. And there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men who drew the sword, and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.
10And David's heart condemned him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done; but now, I pray, O LORD, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly."

11Now when David arose in the morning, the word of the LORD came to the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying, 12"Go and tell David, "Thus says the LORD: "I offer you three things; choose one of them for yourself, that I may do it to you.""' 13So Gad came to David and told him; and he said to him, "Shall seven[a] years of famine come to you in your land? Or shall you flee three months before your enemies, while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days' plague in your land? Now consider and see what answer I should take back to Him who sent me."

14And David said to Gad, "I am in great distress. Please let us fall into the hand of the LORD, for His mercies are great; but do not let me fall into the hand of man."

15So the LORD sent a plague upon Israel from the morning till the appointed time. From Dan to Beersheba seventy thousand men of the people died. 16And when the angel[b] stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD relented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, "It is enough; now restrain your hand." And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing floor of Araunah[c] the Jebusite.

17Then David spoke to the LORD when he saw the angel who was striking the people, and said, "Surely I have sinned, and I have done wickedly; but these sheep, what have they done? Let Your hand, I pray, be against me and against my father's house."

18And Gad came that day to David and said to him, "Go up, erect an altar to the LORD on the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite." 19So David, according to the word of Gad, went up as the LORD commanded. 20Now Araunah looked, and saw the king and his servants coming toward him. So Araunah went out and bowed before the king with his face to the ground.

21Then Araunah said, "Why has my lord the king come to his servant?"

And David said, "To buy the threshing floor from you, to build an altar to the LORD, that the plague may be withdrawn from the people."

22Now Araunah said to David, "Let my lord the king take and offer up whatever seems good to him. Look, here are oxen for burnt sacrifice, and threshing implements and the yokes of the oxen for wood. 23All these, O king, Araunah has given to the king."

And Araunah said to the king, "May the LORD your God accept you."

24Then the king said to Araunah, "No, but I will surely buy it from you for a price; nor will I offer burnt offerings to the LORD my God with that which costs me nothing." So David bought the threshing floor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver. 25And David built there an altar to the LORD, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So the LORD heeded the prayers for the land, and the plague was withdrawn from Israel.
Now King David was old, advanced in years; and they put covers on him, but he could not get warm. 2Therefore his servants said to him, "Let a young woman, a virgin, be sought for our lord the king, and let her stand before the king, and let her care for him; and let her lie in your bosom, that our lord the king may be warm." 3So they sought for a lovely young woman throughout all the territory of Israel, and found Abishag the Shunammite, and brought her to the king. 4The young woman was very lovely; and she cared for the king, and served him; but the king did not know her.

5Then Adonijah the son of Haggith exalted himself, saying, "I will be king"; and he prepared for himself chariots and horsemen, and fifty men to run before him. 6(And his father had not rebuked him at any time by saying, "Why have you done so?" He was also very good-looking. His mother had borne him after Absalom.) 7Then he conferred with Joab the son of Zeruiah and with Abiathar the priest, and they followed and helped Adonijah. 8But Zadok the priest, Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, Nathan the prophet, Shimei, Rei, and the mighty men who belonged to David were not with Adonijah.

9And Adonijah sacrificed sheep and oxen and fattened cattle by the stone of Zoheleth, which is by En Rogel; he also invited all his brothers, the king's sons, and all the men of Judah, the king's servants. 10But he did not invite Nathan the prophet, Benaiah, the mighty men, or Solomon his brother.

11So Nathan spoke to Bathsheba the mother of Solomon, saying, "Have you not heard that Adonijah the son of Haggith has become king, and David our lord does not know it? 12Come, please, let me now give you advice, that you may save your own life and the life of your son Solomon. 13Go immediately to King David and say to him, "Did you not, my lord, O king, swear to your maidservant, saying, "Assuredly your son Solomon shall reign after me, and he shall sit on my throne"? Why then has Adonijah become king?' 14Then, while you are still talking there with the king, I also will come in after you and confirm your words."

15So Bathsheba went into the chamber to the king. (Now the king was very old, and Abishag the Shunammite was serving the king.) 16And Bathsheba bowed and did homage to the king. Then the king said, "What is your wish?"

17Then she said to him, "My lord, you swore by the LORD your God to your maidservant, saying, "Assuredly Solomon your son shall reign after me, and he shall sit on my throne.' 18So now, look! Adonijah has become king; and now, my lord the king, you do not know about it. 19He has sacrificed oxen and fattened cattle and sheep in abundance, and has invited all the sons of the king, Abiathar the priest, and Joab the commander of the army; but Solomon your servant he has not invited. 20And as for you, my lord, O king, the eyes of all Israel are on you, that you should tell them who will sit on the throne of my lord the king after him. 21Otherwise it will happen, when my lord the king rests with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon will be counted as offenders."

22And just then, while she was still talking with the king, Nathan the prophet also came in. 23So they told the king, saying, "Here is Nathan the prophet." And when he came in before the king, he bowed down before the king with his face to the ground. 24And Nathan said, "My lord, O king, have you said, "Adonijah shall reign after me, and he shall sit on my throne'? 25For he has gone down today, and has sacrificed oxen and fattened cattle and sheep in abundance, and has invited all the king's sons, and the commanders of the army, and Abiathar the priest; and look! They are eating and drinking before him; and they say, "Long live King Adonijah!' 26But he has not invited me--me your servant--nor Zadok the priest, nor Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, nor your servant Solomon. 27Has this thing been done by my lord the king, and you have not told your servant who should sit on the throne of my lord the king after him?"


(A) 28Then King David answered and said, "Call Bathsheba to me." So she came into the king's presence and stood before the king. 29And the king took an oath and said, "As the LORD lives, who has redeemed my life from every distress, 30just as I swore to you by the LORD God of Israel, saying, "Assuredly Solomon your son shall be king after me, and he shall sit on my throne in my place,' so I certainly will do this day."

31Then Bathsheba bowed with her face to the earth, and paid homage to the king, and said, "Let my lord King David live forever!"

32And King David said, "Call to me Zadok the priest, Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada." So they came before the king. 33The king also said to them, "Take with you the servants of your lord, and have Solomon my son ride on my own mule, and take him down to Gihon. 34There let Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet anoint him king over Israel; and blow the horn, and say, "Long live King Solomon!' 35Then you shall come up after him, and he shall come and sit on my throne, and he shall be king in my place. For I have appointed him to be ruler over Israel and Judah."

36Benaiah the son of Jehoiada answered the king and said, "Amen! May the LORD God of my lord the king say so too. 37As the LORD has been with my lord the king, even so may He be with Solomon, and make his throne greater than the throne of my lord King David."

38So Zadok the priest, Nathan the prophet, Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the Cherethites, and the Pelethites went down and had Solomon ride on King David's mule, and took him to Gihon. 39Then Zadok the priest took a horn of oil from the tabernacle and anointed Solomon. And they blew the horn, and all the people said, "Long live King Solomon!" 40And all the people went up after him; and the people played the flutes and rejoiced with great joy, so that the earth seemed to split with their sound.

41Now Adonijah and all the guests who were with him heard it as they finished eating. And when Joab heard the sound of the horn, he said, "Why is the city in such a noisy uproar?" 42While he was still speaking, there came Jonathan, the son of Abiathar the priest. And Adonijah said to him, "Come in, for you are a prominent man, and bring good news."

43Then Jonathan answered and said to Adonijah, "No! Our lord King David has made Solomon king. 44The king has sent with him Zadok the priest, Nathan the prophet, Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the Cherethites, and the Pelethites; and they have made him ride on the king's mule. 45So Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet have anointed him king at Gihon; and they have gone up from there rejoicing, so that the city is in an uproar. This is the noise that you have heard. 46Also Solomon sits on the throne of the kingdom. 47And moreover the king's servants have gone to bless our lord King David, saying, "May God make the name of Solomon better than your name, and may He make his throne greater than your throne.' Then the king bowed himself on the bed. 48Also the king said thus, "Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, who has given one to sit on my throne this day, while my eyes see it!"'

49So all the guests who were with Adonijah were afraid, and arose, and each one went his way.

50Now Adonijah was afraid of Solomon; so he arose, and went and took hold of the horns of the altar. 51And it was told Solomon, saying, "Indeed Adonijah is afraid of King Solomon; for look, he has taken hold of the horns of the altar, saying, "Let King Solomon swear to me today that he will not put his servant to death with the sword."'

52Then Solomon said, "If he proves himself a worthy man, not one hair of him shall fall to the earth; but if wickedness is found in him, he shall die." 53So King Solomon sent them to bring him down from the altar. And he came and fell down before King Solomon; and Solomon said to him, "Go to your house."
Now the days of David drew near that he should die, and he charged Solomon his son, saying: 2"I go the way of all the earth; be strong, therefore, and prove yourself a man. 3And keep the charge of the LORD your God: to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, His commandments, His judgments, and His testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn; 4that the LORD may fulfill His word which He spoke concerning me, saying, "If your sons take heed to their way, to walk before Me in truth with all their heart and with all their soul,' He said, "you shall not lack a man on the throne of Israel.'

5"Moreover you know also what Joab the son of Zeruiah did to me, and what he did to the two commanders of the armies of Israel, to Abner the son of Ner and Amasa the son of Jether, whom he killed. And he shed the blood of war in peacetime, and put the blood of war on his belt that was around his waist, and on his sandals that were on his feet. 6Therefore do according to your wisdom, and do not let his gray hair go down to the grave in peace.

7"But show kindness to the sons of Barzillai the Gileadite, and let them be among those who eat at your table, for so they came to me when I fled from Absalom your brother.

8"And see, you have with you Shimei the son of Gera, a Benjamite from Bahurim, who cursed me with a malicious curse in the day when I went to Mahanaim. But he came down to meet me at the Jordan, and I swore to him by the LORD, saying, "I will not put you to death with the sword.' 9Now therefore, do not hold him guiltless, for you are a wise man and know what you ought to do to him; but bring his gray hair down to the grave with blood."

10So David rested with his fathers, and was buried in the City of David. 11The period that David reigned over Israel was forty years; seven years he reigned in Hebron, and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty-three years. 12Then Solomon sat on the throne of his father David; and his kingdom was firmly established.


13Now Adonijah the son of Haggith came to Bathsheba the mother of Solomon. So she said, "Do you come peaceably?"

And he said, "Peaceably." 14Moreover he said, "I have something to say to you."

And she said, "Say it."

15Then he said, "You know that the kingdom was mine, and all Israel had set their expectations on me, that I should reign. However, the kingdom has been turned over, and has become my brother's; for it was his from the LORD. 16Now I ask one petition of you; do not deny me."

And she said to him, "Say it."

17Then he said, "Please speak to King Solomon, for he will not refuse you, that he may give me Abishag the Shunammite as wife."

18So Bathsheba said, "Very well, I will speak for you to the king."

19Bathsheba therefore went to King Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her and bowed down to her, and sat down on his throne and had a throne set for the king's mother; so she sat at his right hand. 20Then she said, "I desire one small petition of you; do not refuse me."

And the king said to her, "Ask it, my mother, for I will not refuse you."

21So she said, "Let Abishag the Shunammite be given to Adonijah your brother as wife."

22And King Solomon answered and said to his mother, "Now why do you ask Abishag the Shunammite for Adonijah? Ask for him the kingdom also--for he is my older brother--for him, and for Abiathar the priest, and for Joab the son of Zeruiah." 23Then King Solomon swore by the LORD, saying, "May God do so to me, and more also, if Adonijah has not spoken this word against his own life! 24Now therefore, as the LORD lives, who has confirmed me and set me on the throne of David my father, and who has established a house[a] for me, as He promised, Adonijah shall be put to death today!"

25So King Solomon sent by the hand of Benaiah the son of Jehoiada; and he struck him down, and he died.


26And to Abiathar the priest the king said, "Go to Anathoth, to your own fields, for you are deserving of death; but I will not put you to death at this time, because you carried the ark of the Lord GOD before my father David, and because you were afflicted every time my father was afflicted." 27So Solomon removed Abiathar from being priest to the LORD, that he might fulfill the word of the LORD which He spoke concerning the house of Eli at Shiloh.

28Then news came to Joab, for Joab had defected to Adonijah, though he had not defected to Absalom. So Joab fled to the tabernacle of the LORD, and took hold of the horns of the altar. 29And King Solomon was told, "Joab has fled to the tabernacle of the LORD; there he is, by the altar." Then Solomon sent Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, saying, "Go, strike him down." 30So Benaiah went to the tabernacle of the LORD, and said to him, "Thus says the king, "Come out!"'

And he said, "No, but I will die here." And Benaiah brought back word to the king, saying, "Thus said Joab, and thus he answered me."

31Then the king said to him, "Do as he has said, and strike him down and bury him, that you may take away from me and from the house of my father the innocent blood which Joab shed. 32So the LORD will return his blood on his head, because he struck down two men more righteous and better than he, and killed them with the sword--Abner the son of Ner, the commander of the army of Israel, and Amasa the son of Jether, the commander of the army of Judah--though my father David did not know it. 33Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab and upon the head of his descendants forever. But upon David and his descendants, upon his house and his throne, there shall be peace forever from the LORD."

34So Benaiah the son of Jehoiada went up and struck and killed him; and he was buried in his own house in the wilderness. 35The king put Benaiah the son of Jehoiada in his place over the army, and the king put Zadok the priest in the place of Abiathar.


36Then the king sent and called for Shimei, and said to him, "Build yourself a house in Jerusalem and dwell there, and do not go out from there anywhere. 37For it shall be, on the day you go out and cross the Brook Kidron, know for certain you shall surely die; your blood shall be on your own head."

38And Shimei said to the king, "The saying is good. As my lord the king has said, so your servant will do." So Shimei dwelt in Jerusalem many days.

39Now it happened at the end of three years, that two slaves of Shimei ran away to Achish the son of Maachah, king of Gath. And they told Shimei, saying, "Look, your slaves are in Gath!" 40So Shimei arose, saddled his donkey, and went to Achish at Gath to seek his slaves. And Shimei went and brought his slaves from Gath. 41And Solomon was told that Shimei had gone from Jerusalem to Gath and had come back. 42Then the king sent and called for Shimei, and said to him, "Did I not make you swear by the LORD, and warn you, saying, "Know for certain that on the day you go out and travel anywhere, you shall surely die'? And you said to me, "The word I have heard is good.' 43Why then have you not kept the oath of the LORD and the commandment that I gave you?" 44The king said moreover to Shimei, "You know, as your heart acknowledges, all the wickedness that you did to my father David; therefore the LORD will return your wickedness on your own head. 45But King Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD forever."

46So the king commanded Benaiah the son of Jehoiada; and he went out and struck him down, and he died. Thus the kingdom was established in the hand of Solomon
Now Solomon made a treaty with Pharaoh king of Egypt, and married Pharaoh's daughter; then he brought her to the City of David until he had finished building his own house, and the house of the LORD, and the wall all around Jerusalem. 2Meanwhile the people sacrificed at the high places, because there was no house built for the name of the LORD until those days. 3And Solomon loved the LORD, walking in the statutes of his father David, except that he sacrificed and burned incense at the high places.

4Now the king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there, for that was the great high place: Solomon offered a thousand burnt offerings on that altar. 5At Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream by night; and God said, "Ask! What shall I give you?"

6And Solomon said: "You have shown great mercy to Your servant David my father, because he walked before You in truth, in righteousness, and in uprightness of heart with You; You have continued this great kindness for him, and You have given him a son to sit on his throne, as it is this day. 7Now, O LORD my God, You have made Your servant king instead of my father David, but I am a little child; I do not know how to go out or come in. 8And Your servant is in the midst of Your people whom You have chosen, a great people, too numerous to be numbered or counted. 9Therefore give to Your servant an understanding heart to judge Your people, that I may discern between good and evil. For who is able to judge this great people of Yours?"

10The speech pleased the LORD, that Solomon had asked this thing. 11Then God said to him: "Because you have asked this thing, and have not asked long life for yourself, nor have asked riches for yourself, nor have asked the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding to discern justice, 12behold, I have done according to your words; see, I have given you a wise and understanding heart, so that there has not been anyone like you before you, nor shall any like you arise after you. 13And I have also given you what you have not asked: both riches and honor, so that there shall not be anyone like you among the kings all your days. 14So if you walk in My ways, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as your father David walked, then I will lengthen your days."

15Then Solomon awoke; and indeed it had been a dream. And he came to Jerusalem and stood before the ark of the covenant of the LORD, offered up burnt offerings, offered peace offerings, and made a feast for all his servants.


16Now two women who were harlots came to the king, and stood before him. 17And one woman said, "O my lord, this woman and I dwell in the same house; and I gave birth while she was in the house. 18Then it happened, the third day after I had given birth, that this woman also gave birth. And we were together; no one was with us in the house, except the two of us in the house. 19And this woman's son died in the night, because she lay on him. 20So she arose in the middle of the night and took my son from my side, while your maidservant slept, and laid him in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom. 21And when I rose in the morning to nurse my son, there he was, dead. But when I had examined him in the morning, indeed, he was not my son whom I had borne."

22Then the other woman said, "No! But the living one is my son, and the dead one is your son."

And the first woman said, "No! But the dead one is your son, and the living one is my son."

Thus they spoke before the king.

23And the king said, "The one says, "This is my son, who lives, and your son is the dead one'; and the other says, "No! But your son is the dead one, and my son is the living one.'|" 24Then the king said, "Bring me a sword." So they brought a sword before the king. 25And the king said, "Divide the living child in two, and give half to one, and half to the other."

26Then the woman whose son was living spoke to the king, for she yearned with compassion for her son; and she said, "O my lord, give her the living child, and by no means kill him!"

But the other said, "Let him be neither mine nor yours, but divide him."

27So the king answered and said, "Give the first woman the living child, and by no means kill him; she is his mother."

28And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had rendered; and they feared the king, for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him to administer justice.
So King Solomon was king over all Israel. 2And these were his officials: Azariah the son of Zadok, the priest; 3Elihoreph and Ahijah, the sons of Shisha, scribes; Jehoshaphat the son of Ahilud, the recorder; 4Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, over the army; Zadok and Abiathar, the priests; 5Azariah the son of Nathan, over the officers; Zabud the son of Nathan, a priest and the king's friend; 6Ahishar, over the household; and Adoniram the son of Abda, over the labor force.

7And Solomon had twelve governors over all Israel, who provided food for the king and his household; each one made provision for one month of the year. 8These are their names: Ben-Hur,[a] in the mountains of Ephraim; 9Ben-Deker,[b] in Makaz, Shaalbim, Beth Shemesh, and Elon Beth Hanan; 10Ben-Hesed,[c] in Arubboth; to him belonged Sochoh and all the land of Hepher; 11Ben-Abinadab,[d] in all the regions of Dor; he had Taphath the daughter of Solomon as wife; 12Baana the son of Ahilud, in Taanach, Megiddo, and all Beth Shean, which is beside Zaretan below Jezreel, from Beth Shean to Abel Meholah, as far as the other side of Jokneam; 13Ben-Geber,[e] in Ramoth Gilead; to him belonged the towns of Jair the son of Manasseh, in Gilead; to him also belonged the region of Argob in Bashan--sixty large cities with walls and bronze gate-bars; 14Ahinadab the son of Iddo, in Mahanaim; 15Ahimaaz, in Naphtali; he also took Basemath the daughter of Solomon as wife; 16Baanah the son of Hushai, in Asher and Aloth; 17Jehoshaphat the son of Paruah, in Issachar; 18Shimei the son of Elah, in Benjamin; 19Geber the son of Uri, in the land of Gilead, in the country of Sihon king of the Amorites, and of Og king of Bashan. He was the only governor who was in the land.


20Judah and Israel were as numerous as the sand by the sea in multitude, eating and drinking and rejoicing. 21So Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the River[f] to the land of the Philistines, as far as the border of Egypt. They brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.

22Now Solomon's provision for one day was thirty kors of fine flour, sixty kors of meal, 23ten fatted oxen, twenty oxen from the pastures, and one hundred sheep, besides deer, gazelles, roebucks, and fatted fowl.

24For he had dominion over all the region on this side of the River[g] from Tiphsah even to Gaza, namely over all the kings on this side of the River; and he had peace on every side all around him. 25And Judah and Israel dwelt safely, each man under his vine and his fig tree, from Dan as far as Beersheba, all the days of Solomon.

26Solomon had forty[h] thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. 27And these governors, each man in his month, provided food for King Solomon and for all who came to King Solomon's table. There was no lack in their supply. 28They also brought barley and straw to the proper place, for the horses and steeds, each man according to his charge.

29And God gave Solomon wisdom and exceedingly great understanding, and largeness of heart like the sand on the seashore. 30Thus Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the men of the East and all the wisdom of Egypt. 31For he was wiser than all men--than Ethan the Ezrahite, and Heman, Chalcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol; and his fame was in all the surrounding nations. 32He spoke three thousand proverbs, and his songs were one thousand and five. 33Also he spoke of trees, from the cedar tree of Lebanon even to the hyssop that springs out of the wall; he spoke also of animals, of birds, of creeping things, and of fish. 34And men of all nations, from all the kings of the earth who had heard of his wisdom, came to hear the wisdom of Solomon.
Now Solomon assembled the elders of Israel and all the heads of the tribes, the chief fathers of the children of Israel, to King Solomon in Jerusalem, that they might bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD from the City of David, which is Zion. 2Therefore all the men of Israel assembled with King Solomon at the feast in the month of Ethanim, which is the seventh month. 3So all the elders of Israel came, and the priests took up the ark. 4Then they brought up the ark of the LORD, the tabernacle of meeting, and all the holy furnishings that were in the tabernacle. The priests and the Levites brought them up. 5Also King Solomon, and all the congregation of Israel who were assembled with him, were with him before the ark, sacrificing sheep and oxen that could not be counted or numbered for multitude. 6Then the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD to its place, into the inner sanctuary of the temple, to the Most Holy Place, under the wings of the cherubim. 7For the cherubim spread their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubim overshadowed the ark and its poles. 8The poles extended so that the ends of the poles could be seen from the holy place, in front of the inner sanctuary; but they could not be seen from outside. And they are there to this day. 9Nothing was in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

10And it came to pass, when the priests came out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, 11so that the priests could not continue ministering because of the cloud; for the glory of the LORD filled the house of the LORD.

12Then Solomon spoke:
"The LORD said He would dwell in the dark cloud.
13I have surely built You an exalted house,
And a place for You to dwell in forever."Then the king turned around and blessed the whole assembly of Israel, while all the assembly of Israel was standing. 15And he said: "Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, who spoke with His mouth to my father David, and with His hand has fulfilled it, saying, 16"Since the day that I brought My people Israel out of Egypt, I have chosen no city from any tribe of Israel in which to build a house, that My name might be there; but I chose David to be over My people Israel.' 17Now it was in the heart of my father David to build a temple[a] for the name of the LORD God of Israel. 18But the LORD said to my father David, "Whereas it was in your heart to build a temple for My name, you did well that it was in your heart. 19Nevertheless you shall not build the temple, but your son who will come from your body, he shall build the temple for My name.' 20So the LORD has fulfilled His word which He spoke; and I have filled the position of my father David, and sit on the throne of Israel, as the LORD promised; and I have built a temple for the name of the LORD God of Israel. 21And there I have made a place for the ark, in which is the covenant of the LORD which He made with our fathers, when He brought them out of the land of Egypt."

Then Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the assembly of Israel, and spread out his hands toward heaven; 23and he said: "LORD God of Israel, there is no God in heaven above or on earth below like You, who keep Your covenant and mercy with Your servants who walk before You with all their hearts. 24You have kept what You promised Your servant David my father; You have both spoken with Your mouth and fulfilled it with Your hand, as it is this day. 25Therefore, LORD God of Israel, now keep what You promised Your servant David my father, saying, "You shall not fail to have a man sit before Me on the throne of Israel, only if your sons take heed to their way, that they walk before Me as you have walked before Me.' 26And now I pray, O God of Israel, let Your word come true, which You have spoken to Your servant David my father.

27"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built! 28Yet regard the prayer of Your servant and his supplication, O LORD my God, and listen to the cry and the prayer which Your servant is praying before You today: 29that Your eyes may be open toward this temple night and day, toward the place of which You said, "My name shall be there,' that You may hear the prayer which Your servant makes toward this place. 30And may You hear the supplication of Your servant and of Your people Israel, when they pray toward this place. Hear in heaven Your dwelling place; and when You hear, forgive.

31"When anyone sins against his neighbor, and is forced to take an oath, and comes and takes an oath before Your altar in this temple, 32then hear in heaven, and act, and judge Your servants, condemning the wicked, bringing his way on his head, and justifying the righteous by giving him according to his righteousness.

33"When Your people Israel are defeated before an enemy because they have sinned against You, and when they turn back to You and confess Your name, and pray and make supplication to You in this temple, 34then hear in heaven, and forgive the sin of Your people Israel, and bring them back to the land which You gave to their fathers.

35"When the heavens are shut up and there is no rain because they have sinned against You, when they pray toward this place and confess Your name, and turn from their sin because You afflict them, 36then hear in heaven, and forgive the sin of Your servants, Your people Israel, that You may teach them the good way in which they should walk; and send rain on Your land which You have given to Your people as an inheritance.

37"When there is famine in the land, pestilence or blight or mildew, locusts or grasshoppers; when their enemy besieges them in the land of their cities; whatever plague or whatever sickness there is; 38whatever prayer, whatever supplication is made by anyone, or by all Your people Israel, when each one knows the plague of his own heart, and spreads out his hands toward this temple: 39then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men), 40that they may fear You all the days that they live in the land which You gave to our fathers.

41"Moreover, concerning a foreigner, who is not of Your people Israel, but has come from a far country for Your name's sake 42(for they will hear of Your great name and Your strong hand and Your outstretched arm), when he comes and prays toward this temple, 43hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to You, that all peoples of the earth may know Your name and fear You, as do Your people Israel, and that they may know that this temple which I have built is called by Your name.

44"When Your people go out to battle against their enemy, wherever You send them, and when they pray to the LORD toward the city which You have chosen and the temple which I have built for Your name, 45then hear in heaven their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause.

46"When they sin against You (for there is no one who does not sin), and You become angry with them and deliver them to the enemy, and they take them captive to the land of the enemy, far or near; 47yet when they come to themselves in the land where they were carried captive, and repent, and make supplication to You in the land of those who took them captive, saying, "We have sinned and done wrong, we have committed wickedness'; 48and when they return to You with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies who led them away captive, and pray to You toward their land which You gave to their fathers, the city which You have chosen and the temple which I have built for Your name: 49then hear in heaven Your dwelling place their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause, 50and forgive Your people who have sinned against You, and all their transgressions which they have transgressed against You; and grant them compassion before those who took them captive, that they may have compassion on them 51(for they are Your people and Your inheritance, whom You brought out of Egypt, out of the iron furnace), 52that Your eyes may be open to the supplication of Your servant and the supplication of Your people Israel, to listen to them whenever they call to You. 53For You separated them from among all the peoples of the earth to be Your inheritance, as You spoke by Your servant Moses, when You brought our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord GOD."

And so it was, when Solomon had finished praying all this prayer and supplication to the LORD, that he arose from before the altar of the LORD, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven. 55Then he stood and blessed all the assembly of Israel with a loud voice, saying: 56"Blessed be the LORD, who has given rest to His people Israel, according to all that He promised. There has not failed one word of all His good promise, which He promised through His servant Moses. 57May the LORD our God be with us, as He was with our fathers. May He not leave us nor forsake us, 58that He may incline our hearts to Himself, to walk in all His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, which He commanded our fathers. 59And may these words of mine, with which I have made supplication before the LORD, be near the LORD our God day and night, that He may maintain the cause of His servant and the cause of His people Israel, as each day may require, 60that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no other. 61Let your heart therefore be loyal to the LORD our God, to walk in His statutes and keep His commandments, as at this day."

Then the king and all Israel with him offered sacrifices before the LORD. 63And Solomon offered a sacrifice of peace offerings, which he offered to the LORD, twenty-two thousand bulls and one hundred and twenty thousand sheep. So the king and all the children of Israel dedicated the house of the LORD. 64On the same day the king consecrated the middle of the court that was in front of the house of the LORD; for there he offered burnt offerings, grain offerings, and the fat of the peace offerings, because the bronze altar that was before the LORD was too small to receive the burnt offerings, the grain offerings, and the fat of the peace offerings.

65At that time Solomon held a feast, and all Israel with him, a great assembly from the entrance of Hamath to the Brook of Egypt, before the LORD our God, seven days and seven more days--fourteen days. 66On the eighth day he sent the people away; and they blessed the king, and went to their tents joyful and glad of heart for all the good that the LORD had done for His servant David, and for Israel His people.
And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished building the house of the LORD and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he wanted to do, 2that the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as He had appeared to him at Gibeon. 3And the LORD said to him: "I have heard your prayer and your supplication that you have made before Me; I have consecrated this house which you have built to put My name there forever, and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually. 4Now if you walk before Me as your father David walked, in integrity of heart and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded you, and if you keep My statutes and My judgments, 5then I will establish the throne of your kingdom over Israel forever, as I promised David your father, saying, "You shall not fail to have a man on the throne of Israel.' 6But if you or your sons at all turn from following Me, and do not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods and worship them, 7then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them; and this house which I have consecrated for My name I will cast out of My sight. Israel will be a proverb and a byword among all peoples. 8And as for this house, which is exalted, everyone who passes by it will be astonished and will hiss, and say, "Why has the LORD done thus to this land and to this house?' 9Then they will answer, "Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore the LORD has brought all this calamity on them."'


10Now it happened at the end of twenty years, when Solomon had built the two houses, the house of the LORD and the king's house 11(Hiram the king of Tyre had supplied Solomon with cedar and cypress and gold, as much as he desired), that King Solomon then gave Hiram twenty cities in the land of Galilee. 12Then Hiram went from Tyre to see the cities which Solomon had given him, but they did not please him. 13So he said, "What kind of cities are these which you have given me, my brother?" And he called them the land of Cabul,[a] as they are to this day. 14Then Hiram sent the king one hundred and twenty talents of gold.


(B) 15And this is the reason for the labor force which King Solomon raised: to build the house of the LORD, his own house, the Millo,[b] the wall of Jerusalem, Hazor, Megiddo, and Gezer. 16(Pharaoh king of Egypt had gone up and taken Gezer and burned it with fire, had killed the Canaanites who dwelt in the city, and had given it as a dowry to his daughter, Solomon's wife.) 17And Solomon built Gezer, Lower Beth Horon, 18Baalath, and Tadmor in the wilderness, in the land of Judah, 19all the storage cities that Solomon had, cities for his chariots and cities for his cavalry, and whatever Solomon desired to build in Jerusalem, in Lebanon, and in all the land of his dominion.

20All the people who were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, who were not of the children of Israel-- 21that is, their descendants who were left in the land after them, whom the children of Israel had not been able to destroy completely--from these Solomon raised forced labor, as it is to this day. 22But of the children of Israel Solomon made no forced laborers, because they were men of war and his servants: his officers, his captains, commanders of his chariots, and his cavalry.

23Others were chiefs of the officials who were over Solomon's work: five hundred and fifty, who ruled over the people who did the work.

24But Pharaoh's daughter came up from the City of David to her house which Solomon[c] had built for her. Then he built the Millo.

25Now three times a year Solomon offered burnt offerings and peace offerings on the altar which he had built for the LORD, and he burned incense with them on the altar that was before the LORD. So he finished the temple.

26King Solomon also built a fleet of ships at Ezion Geber, which is near Elath[d] on the shore of the Red Sea, in the land of Edom. 27Then Hiram sent his servants with the fleet, seamen who knew the sea, to work with the servants of Solomon. 28And they went to Ophir, and acquired four hundred and twenty talents of gold from there, and brought it to King Solomon.
But King Solomon loved many foreign women, as well as the daughter of Pharaoh: women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites-- 2from the nations of whom the LORD had said to the children of Israel, "You shall not intermarry with them, nor they with you. Surely they will turn away your hearts after their gods." Solomon clung to these in love. 3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart. 4For it was so, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned his heart after other gods; and his heart was not loyal to the LORD his God, as was the heart of his father David. 5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not fully follow the LORD, as did his father David. 7Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the hill that is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the people of Ammon. 8And he did likewise for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.

9So the LORD became angry with Solomon, because his heart had turned from the LORD God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not keep what the LORD had commanded. 11Therefore the LORD said to Solomon, "Because you have done this, and have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom away from you and give it to your servant. 12Nevertheless I will not do it in your days, for the sake of your father David; I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13However I will not tear away the whole kingdom; I will give one tribe to your son for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen."


14Now the LORD raised up an adversary against Solomon, Hadad the Edomite; he was a descendant of the king in Edom. 15For it happened, when David was in Edom, and Joab the commander of the army had gone up to bury the slain, after he had killed every male in Edom 16(because for six months Joab remained there with all Israel, until he had cut down every male in Edom), 17that Hadad fled to go to Egypt, he and certain Edomites of his father's servants with him. Hadad was still a little child. 18Then they arose from Midian and came to Paran; and they took men with them from Paran and came to Egypt, to Pharaoh king of Egypt, who gave him a house, apportioned food for him, and gave him land. 19And Hadad found great favor in the sight of Pharaoh, so that he gave him as wife the sister of his own wife, that is, the sister of Queen Tahpenes. 20Then the sister of Tahpenes bore him Genubath his son, whom Tahpenes weaned in Pharaoh's house. And Genubath was in Pharaoh's household among the sons of Pharaoh.

21So when Hadad heard in Egypt that David rested with his fathers, and that Joab the commander of the army was dead, Hadad said to Pharaoh, "Let me depart, that I may go to my own country."

22Then Pharaoh said to him, "But what have you lacked with me, that suddenly you seek to go to your own country?"

So he answered, "Nothing, but do let me go anyway."

23And God raised up another adversary against him, Rezon the son of Eliadah, who had fled from his lord, Hadadezer king of Zobah. 24So he gathered men to him and became captain over a band of raiders, when David killed those of Zobah. And they went to Damascus and dwelt there, and reigned in Damascus. 25He was an adversary of Israel all the days of Solomon (besides the trouble that Hadad caused); and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria.


26Then Solomon's servant, Jeroboam the son of Nebat, an Ephraimite from Zereda, whose mother's name was Zeruah, a widow, also rebelled against the king.

27And this is what caused him to rebel against the king: Solomon had built the Millo and repaired the damages to the City of David his father. 28The man Jeroboam was a mighty man of valor; and Solomon, seeing that the young man was industrious, made him the officer over all the labor force of the house of Joseph.

29Now it happened at that time, when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilonite met him on the way; and he had clothed himself with a new garment, and the two were alone in the field. 30Then Ahijah took hold of the new garment that was on him, and tore it into twelve pieces. 31And he said to Jeroboam, "Take for yourself ten pieces, for thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: "Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you 32(but he shall have one tribe for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel), 33because they have[a] forsaken Me, and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the people of Ammon, and have not walked in My ways to do what is right in My eyes and keep My statutes and My judgments, as did his father David. 34However I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand, because I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of My servant David, whom I chose because he kept My commandments and My statutes. 35But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand and give it to you--ten tribes. 36And to his son I will give one tribe, that My servant David may always have a lamp before Me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen for Myself, to put My name there. 37So I will take you, and you shall reign over all your heart desires, and you shall be king over Israel. 38Then it shall be, if you heed all that I command you, walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then I will be with you and build for you an enduring house, as I built for David, and will give Israel to you. 39And I will afflict the descendants of David because of this, but not forever."'

40Solomon therefore sought to kill Jeroboam. But Jeroboam arose and fled to Egypt, to Shishak king of Egypt, and was in Egypt until the death of Solomon.

Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon? 42And the period that Solomon reigned in Jerusalem over all Israel was forty years. 43Then Solomon rested with his fathers, and was buried in the City of David his father. And Rehoboam his son reigned in his place.

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Trusty;
I am sorry to have to say this,however I find it a needful thing.Get your head out of your a** and begin to realise that the proccess has been gone through and reject out of hand.
So,having established (many times again) that Sandy Cove has been rejected by the top dogs,what may I ask is it that you are missing?
When you post,please have something of substance to contribute when you attempt to rebuke.Just posting verse after verse after verse detracts from any credabilty that you might have some chance to establish.
As of yet, you have not expressed intent or stance with any proported mission,leading or direction.
Come together to reason which,by the way, involves intelligent dialog.Something the Lord is not afraid of.
So what are you afraid of?Well?
Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia,
Dave</font>}

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

David are you related to Tim Munson in Baltimore. The one that owns American Energy Savers.

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>I am related to a Tim Munson but it couldn't be the same one since my cousin Tim lives here in Maine.
That does not mean that I'm not related to the Tim you know,I'm just not sure.
Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia,
Dave</font>}

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Thanks, Just wondering

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>No problem.
I do have some reletives I'd like to loose over the side of a ship though.(ungodly moment)
Dave</font>}

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Gotta love those ungodly moments, as long as they are only moments LOL.
Life is to short to have them last any longer than a moment.

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Me thinks you speak the truth.
Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia,
Dave</font>}

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

I try, but you know sometimes those ungodly moments get in the way
Good night David.

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>pressing_on;
Have a blessed morning my friend and may the Lord fill your heart with overwhelming love and peace.
Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia,
Dave</font>}}}}

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Thanks David, it truly was a blessed day!

May you be blessed beyond measure also.