Stevens World True Repentance VS Our Forgiveness

[dancer (dancer)]

I want to be very clear I have some biases here that really shake people in their thinking.

But there is an exodus of people from GGWO ministry as a whole. My fear with the days that we are in now that people would be taking on the identity of stigma of things they were involved with or maybe had zero connection.

I cannot speak to the likes of Kent Sutorius, Ed Lutz, Paul Stevens and Steve Stevens.

I cannot even speak to the place that Pastor Schaller finds himself. I know that for many of the changes that took place in the Worlwide Church of God took years and it took some empowerment from many places for it to work at all.

If Pastor Schaller is sincere he will sincerly seek out forgiveness and push the ministry in a direction where it repents for its wrongs. It could save many affilations and connections. Go look at what happened to the Worldwide Church of God. They lost most of their churches at one point.

If I live in Maryland I would be at Pastor Pauls church constantly. If I had a chance I sit and talk to Pastor Stevens and others in leadership. Not that I can change I thing. I am not that naive. But maybe there is something left there that attracked so many of us to the place to the people.

I never thought much of Pastor Teddy but my heart goes out for him with what he has been through.

I feel the same about Pastor Steve Stevens.

People tend to be opportunist. But more so people tend to fight to survive when they are hurting and get out of the way.

Making demands on people becoming something they are not is rather silly. If you don't like what they represent go somewhere else.

If you are hurt by them pray that you may be able to forgive them.If they are still hurting people do whatever you can to stop it from happening!

I cannot look into Paul Stevens soul and tell you if he is truly repentented before his God, but I sure accept it, and have faith in the idea that his deeds show it.

If Thom called me up, or any of the other Pastors spoke up and tried to bring healing it would be a good move. It takes real courage and a shepherds heart.

God Bless those who have stood up against what has gone wrong on both sides of the fence. Lets not blast those seeking to do right even if they are guilty from the past. We need to encourage people with hope not attacks.

I am a sinner saved by grace, not acts of my own contriction.

Neil Carrick

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Neil;You strike to the point of our duty as believer priests 2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;.
We are called to uphold and restore.Not to cover up but to cover with prayer those that need healing in their inner most being.Those that are willing to repent with actions speaking louder than words.
We are after all God's body here on earth are we not?
As for what we hear,we are to be good bereans,searching the Word daily as to whether these things are so.We can know what is false only in as much as we know the truth. That is the guard upon our hearts.

Baruch Habbah Hahsem Adonia,
Dave</font>}

[lee (lee)]

Hi Neil

[lana (lana)]

It has to be a very confusing time for the pastors. They have been shielded in the system, some for 20 yrs. That is their livehood. With all that is going on, they have no choice but to "examine" themselves. Some may not even have a calling. They will have to get jobs like the rest of us. Popularity won't last. True repentence won't come easy. It must to save the church.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

We all have a calling, it's to reveal to the world a loving savior.
None excluded

[lana (lana)]

Pressing on, naturally we all have a calling. Maybe when this all over, some may not be called to pastorship. I thought I said that.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

I think that everyone feels that same way, if these guys came out and said, "We Are Sorry, We Were Wrong!" we would have a place to start reconciliation and forgiveness.
BUT,
we have a track record here, and there is nothing wrong with saying so. The record says that if they, meaning GGWO pastors, can get out with their shirts on they will. If Schaller came to me and said he was sorry, and I saw that he was sorry, I would weep and reconcile with him. Who am I to deny a person trying to get right? However, I have seen the exact opposite of this. CONSTANT, lying and cover-ups, continued manipulation through the silver tongues of the ministry in the form pulpiteering and Open Forums, and out right arrogance from the dogmatic, Stevenist leaders in GGWO. Ignoring what IS will not help anyone, neither them nor us (us meaning anyone that was hurt or stabbed by these guys).

Examples have already been set, Pastor Mark Morin. He has repented before his church and willingly stepped down and been reinstated. This is what it takes to get my attention. To get up in the pulpit and say, “we love you, we’re for you, we’re reaching out to you…blah blah blah.” Means absolutely ZERO! Those statements are anything but repentant or sorrowful. It could not be clearer when they said at the last Open Snorum, “We will not apologize again.” How can you put arrogant limitations on your repentance or plea for forgiveness? Impossible and absurd. This nonsense is CRAPOLA of the highest order.

Here is what repentance would look like:
GGWO leaders come out and say they are sorry for the harm and damage they have done, in SPECIFIC naming of errors Doing this with out trying to entice me back to the PLAZA.

This is not repentace:
Saying, “We love you and were are for you, come back sometime and you will see how good it is now that we have an anointed covering and a red hot pulpit.”

Here is the summary; nothing in their past or present actions would indicate that they have any interest in repenting. I am not negating what God can and may do, I am only basing my decisions toward this ministry based off on their TRACK RECORD.


-----------------------
This is you brain:
<font color="0000ff">EGG</font>
This is GGWO:
<font color="0000ff">CATEGORIES</font>
This is you brain on GGWO:


No questions right ;)

[minutus (minutus)]

Maybe we need a CRAPOLA TRANSLATOR

http://www.degraeve.com/translator.php

[nonotone (nonotone)]

No Dave,

We need remote-controlled bullsh*t detectors:

http://www.fakecrap.com/products/bull****_detector.html

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Thanks, ericb for publishing some good ol' Carl Stevens bull****:

"Aperson from another church called me. He
said, “I have attacked you, I have hated you, and
I have fought God. At twenty-nine years old, I
am dying and I want to repent.”
I said, “The only thing I am interested in is
that you let God love you.” He said, “I have AIDS. I’m going to die.”
“Just be loved, let God love you,” I told him.
“In the state you are in, just be loved.”
He had done wrong, but the only thing he
needed was to be loved by God. I visited him
every day and kept telling him, “Let God love
you.” Within twelve weeks, that man was out
of the hospital, and he was baptized in the
church he hated in the past. God changed him.
This man’s thoughts, emotions, and decisions
were now being expressed according to the
Word of God. His heart was changed, then his
soul was changed, and then his mind was
changed. He began to love the wife he had battled
for many years, and he started to love his
two daughters. As he began to love the church,
he began to love the lost."

Here's a man that committed the ULTIMATE SIN of going to another church. Notice how the transgressions against Carl are listed first:

"I have attacked you, I have hated you, and
I have fought God. At twenty-nine years old, I
am dying and I want to repent."

He attacked CARL, he hated CARL, and oh, by the way, he fought God.

How can Carl Stevens EVER be considered HUMBLE? Does GGWO have a different definition of "humble"? I thought humble was the opposite of arrogant and proud. Not at GGWO!

Thanks, ericb for this very informative post.

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

How true. This gross lack of humility is one of the many things the GGWO leadership needs to repent of. They're the most proud bunch of jerks I've ever seen. They should also be reminded that pride comes before a fall which they will likely experience the hard way quite soon. The exodus of people and affiliates should be just the beginning!!

[lana (lana)]

The enemy of pride is humility. It sounds real but the humble are seeing through that "awsome" phoniness. Jesus is drawing them out and back to Himself.

[dancer (dancer)]

I have to say I am not trying to suggest nor do I want to suggest anybody get a free pass.

I do believe that we and all believers need to encourage true repentance.

I will give a for instance. Many people wanted the Stevens brothers to leave the ministry. They encouraged the very idea. They wanted then to show their willingness if they had their own ministries to run them like any good mainstream church would with accountablity and transparency. Especially with things like finances and staff in workings.

I believe since the day I spoke to Paul Stevens he was sincere about doing this and more.

Now there seems to be another demand that he needs to step aside for a period of time.

I am willing to bet money even if he did there would be other demands and then something else, and then another, etc.

Paul in a way has stepped aside and moved to a different world in ministry. He went from being the next Senior Pastor of a large International Ministry to being a church planter.

If you ever been a church planter you would understand that there is a major difference. Its like going from being the District Manager of a Large Corperation to the field investigator for a possible new store in the middle of a nowhere town.

I would direct people back to the concerns I have. Not on what the little guys who have moved on are doing, but what the still existing situation that is unresolved in Balmer.

Paul did something for me in regards to being a Shepherd that I am not so sure the Pastor of the local Baptist Church or Presbyterian Church would do. The idea that a man would go from being the next big chief to being the guy who would amounts to a house call speaks volumes.

I say he became an ole school local parish minister in a shot from GGWO.

Count this all Grace.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Dancer,

I understand what you are saying. I don't really care what any of these men want to do. They stand or fall before their Master. I don't care where people go to church either, they also stand or fall before their Master. I am only responsible for me and my family. Based on what I believe and have a conviction on, I can not and will not attend any of these churches. Could God lead me to one in the future? It is possible, but it won't be until these pastors and their new organization have been proven, apart form GGWO. I love these guys and hope the best for them. I also pray that all those that attend truly are blessed and grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ. I will be doing the same, just not in a GG'ish church.

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hey brothers/sisters let's give ericb a hand for at least giving some context rather then just scripture posting.we can now discuss with him openly in a manner ( whether in agreement or disagreement ) that befits intelligent forum.

Thus the dialog of Christian love can begin with another brother in Christ.

Let's not allow ourselves to mock him for what he believes but have discouse within the confines of biblical truth.To the end of which we seek edification.

Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia,
Dave</font>}

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

David
I Have read what eric b posted,, I believe it comes from the booklet "Just Let God Love You."

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>pressing_on ;
yes as a matter of fact it does.I recognize it.
At least he is expressing where he is coming from.That gives us the opportunity to reach out with understanding to this fellow brother.We know that he believes in Love.That is good is it not?

Our responsabilty is to Love him back and build him up so that he understands that no one is here to simply attack another,just to discuss doctrinal error and help toward the correction of that error so as to facilitate reconciliation.

Yes?

Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia,
Dave</font>}

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Ericb;
it is now a good time for you to open up in communication from who <u>you</u> are and what you believe.Why you stand on your beliefs and the defending biblical principles that support your belief system.

Be yourself without parroting from a booklet.
Use your own words to communicate with your fellow brothers/sisters in Christ.

Dave</font>}

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

yesum David. Youze be correcto.

I agree,
ericb how about your thoughts we'd love to hear them.

[nomansman (nomansman)]

someone said

if these guys came out and said, "We Are Sorry, We Were Wrong!" we would have a place to start reconciliation and forgiveness.

i' just thought i'd add that forgiveness is not exclusive to repentance

we have a duty to forgive whether they repent or not. that's tough i know epcpescially if you have been deeply hurt.

although it's true of course that reconciliation can only begin when both actions have taken place

[lana (lana)]

You know, I think it too complicated for them to understand. The've established their kingdom for so long theres no way they can be wrong. "How can they do this to me"?, I gave them my life. Like Jesus, this is my cross" The enemy has taken over their souls." "I am an oposle".

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
nomansman;
anyone who argues with that which you have stated would have to be completely ignorant of what Jesus did,not only for the offender but also for themselves.

Forgiveness in and of itself causes freedom from the offence and starts the healing proccess within the one who has been offended.

Forgiveness removes the offenders grip upon the offended's life.

Sweet release.Forgiveness is the greatest revenge.Oh yeah!

Dave</font>}