Personal Request

[minutus (minutus)]

FACTNet Friends new and old, please pray for me as I take my statistics final Thursday night. The old brain is a little slower than it used to be and I've been working long and hard this week on the final project to hand in as well. Brain hurts - must find bedhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/yawn.gif.

We can all party after this is over!

Thanks,

Dave Carson

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Godspeed, Dave.

The reason I don't have a minor in sociology is because I was a coward and avoided statistics.

Princess doesn't do math.

[yogi (yogi)]

It was good of God to create the index finger and calculator!

Yogi

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Dave, I feel your pain, brother! That was hands down the hardest class I ever took. May your batteries and coffee be strong!

Good Luck,

Boss Martian

[yogi (yogi)]

Boss,

Are you enlisted?
If so, what branch and is your rank: Lt. Colonel, Colonel
or General? You have such leadership skills
and are not afraid to "go there."

Yogi

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Yogi,

I'm not in the military anymore. I do work (some would say I use the word loosely!) FOR the military, though. I used to be in the Air Force and reached the lofty rank of Staff SGT. (E-5).

I don't know about the leadership skills, but I do think I look at the GGWO issue a little differently than most here because I have never seen Carl or GGWO as anything but a cult from almost the very start. I was already a Christian and was far more interested in the person from GGWO that tried to get me to attend than I was looking for a church.

The thing that gets me is this idea that the Christian world is going to come to a grinding halt if GGWO ceases to exist. This so called church is a cult. People far smarter than me have come to the same conclusion. Why hold on to a cult? Those that have left have posted time and time again on this board that it has taken YEARS to get over the GGWO way of conduct and thinking. How in the Wide World of Sports is this cult going to get healthy just because Carl steps down? ALL of the leadership was brought up under Carl. NONE of the membership will dare, for whatever reason, to speak up and TELL IT LIKE IT IS!

There are thousands of healthy churches out there that are healthy and non-abusive. Anyone who has read this board for any length of time knows that Jim Faucett and I have major disagreements concerning our beliefs. But you know what? I would heartily recommend that someone seeking a church give Jim's church a try. Why? Because even though I disagree with some of Jim's doctrine, I know that his church is not abusive and is not a cult! Why then, with so many healthy churches out there, churches that aren't built with money STOLEN (yes , stolen) from the naive, churches without a laundry list of f*&^ed up conduct from here to Baghdad, is it so imperative for GGWO to survive? My feeling is that there is still that belief that somehow GGWO is superior to other churches. If GGWO doesn't survive, in the minds of some, then somehow people just won't be getting the REAL Gospel. Bull****! Another feeling I have is that there are still those that worship PASTAH(!) and think he has some sort of legacy worth preserving. BULL****!

I'm not at all afraid to "go there" because I have never worshipped the false idol Stevens. I don't feel like I'm crossing any sort of line. He is no different in my eyes than Robert Tilton. After all, haven't people been saved in association with Tilton? Stevens is nothing more than a power hungry liar who has used something so good and so precious to serve his own EVIL ends. I have seen first hand what his "ministry" (I just spit on the floor when I wrote that.) does to beautiful and innocent people. While people like sam_i_am write all this pious prose and quote Scripture about Christian love and ethics, the abuse continues. Where were your Christian love and ethics last year? Funny how all this comes out now when people's ESTEEMED AND HONORED positions are under attack. Oh, excuse me, under SOPHISTICATED ATTACK BY SATAN! What a load! It sounds like something my nine year old nephew would come up with when he is getting punished for something. ("Why are you punishing me for not doing my homework? I tell you, it's a sophisticated attack by Satan!")

What will solve the GGWO problem? Leadership, from Carl on down doing what is right with no regard for preserving their position and maintaining their power. It is a matter of doing the right thing, even if it results in GGWO completely dissolving. Telling the TRUTH without worrying about the institution of GGWO. Realizing that honesty and putting others before self is more important than any position. Like I said before, I don't know if I'm a leader or not, but I do know that TRUE leader puts the welfare of those he or she leads before the welfare of self.

Why don't some of you GREAT CHRISTIAN MEN OF GGWO "MAN UP" AND SAY AND DO THE RIGHT THING? Is there even one of you, ONE, that is leader enough or MAN enough to stop worrying about your precious position for half a second and really address the issues? Will you take time out from your busy day of oppressing women and sucking Carl's butt? I know the answer to that one because, praise powerful and merciful God, I can see!

[yogi (yogi)]

Favorite Martian,

I hate to revert back to a former GGWO idiom but your response has evoked a <font size="+2">"WOW" </font>from this bear.Go get 'em sarge!

Yogi

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Do I have to stop saying "wow", too? I thought "awesome" was the only word I had to remove from my vocabulary.

[yogi (yogi)]

Sorry buddy,

Better think about nixing the words: "capacity" "portion", "body" and most importantly, <font size="+2">"PASTOR" </font>from your current vocab!

Yogs

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

I wish there was some way for me to get a copy of the GGWO Dictionary or whatever the thing is called without giving them any money.

I keep reading about missing someone's "portion". Why don't they just say "I miss YOU!" What exactly is "portion"?

What does "capacity" mean in GGWO-speak?

I think "body" refers to the church, but from what I've seen, it's also the answer Carl would give if asked what the most important thing is when hiring a new secretary.

Pastor hasn't been stricken yet, because I know way too many good people who have EARNED the right to be called pastor. I'm not going to let some no morals pretender slander the good title of pastor. What sickens me is when he's called "Pastor" as if he's the only one or rather, a pastor to begin with. It also makes me angry when I read about Carl taking the title of "Doctor" when all he did was buy it. Oh, but it's all better now because he quit using the title. Please.

[yogi (yogi)]

Boss, in South America shoeshines and cab drivers are called "doctor"; though I think they have much more going for them, than the likes of CHS and Lewdass! As for the word "portion" according to my experience it's an insincere word used to pretend to show concern and to "love bomb" people into the kingdom, Carl's that is! Basically this "life style" known as Greater Grace is a crock of ****! Its ridiculous nomenclature, bizarre theology and ONE pastor/teacher in a bad wig have produced some weird ****! [Sorry if I offended anyone using the word "****"; didn't mean devalue this word!]

Da Bear

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

"You have such a unique portion!" = "I think you are freakin' weird."

Upon meeting me for the first time this was the most common GG comment.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I'd spent years working on being weird. If they'd called me it, I would have considered it a compliment. I never liked the way Stevens used the 'w' word. He gave it bad connotations which probably aren't in the dictionary.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

"It never got weird enough for me." Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

I HAVE to find a way to work "You have such a unique portion" into my conversation today. If I get a call from the home office, one guy in particular......

[minutus (minutus)]

Boss, you truly do have such a unique portion http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif. Thanks for the prayers - the test went OK. Glad it's over.

[lee (lee)]

Bravo, Dave

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." Dr. Hunter S. Thompson

Way to go, Dave! I had statistics in 1998. I couldn't pass that final at gunpoint today. NEVER trust a math discipline uses signs that aren't even found on a computer!

[kirk (kirk)]

Mr. Martian,
I do believe that your post is exactly right. The whole thing is corrupt and almost all of the leadership has been trainednin the great art of asskissing. I know i was there. There is a gradual decline in your personal convictions as you serve carl. There must be for you to exist in that world. It would take too much time to try to explain, but let me tell you, that when you do compromise you know what you are doing. You justify it for the greater good, after all he has been walking with God for 45 years. I could not possibley know better than him...

I read the declaration of elders, what a joke!
I know of three men that had the balls to stand up for what is right, and they are no longer there. The elders would eat **** if carl told them it had nutritonal value for the kingdom of God. Lets face it these men could not make it on the outside, so they have to protect their position in the Borg. If you employ people, try to think of any one of the elders you would give a job?????

Steve Byrne, Kent Sutorius, Ron Kirkwood.
Two got railroaded and the third is just like his Dad, and had enough of their bull**** games..

Boss, if you want a copy of the GGWO Glossary I will gladly send you my copy. I never did use it.

I have been silent until now. There is nothing left to salvage from ggwo.. Even the poeple that make it out alive need at least three years to de-program. I know because that's about how long i needed.

Ron Kirkwood

[minutus (minutus)]

Statistics is one of those things I've managed to avoid for almost 30 years, but it finally caught up with me. I'm considering going for a graduate certificate in Geographical Information Systems and it is a prerequisite. Our teacher was an interesting fellow from Burkina Faso and I really appreciated his passion for the subject (he's a statistician for Neilson Ratings). There is a certain beauty to the numbers, but it'll never be my primary interest.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Hi Ron! Thank you for joining us! Your words are powerful and to the point! Just like you!

To those of you who do not know Ron Kirkwood, he was Registrar of MBCS before getting out. He saw the corruption and the devastated lives and stood up for truth. It cost Ron and his wife beautiful Robin everything for their taking a stand. They were marked and slandered. I would say the elders should be very very afraid to have Ron joining us in this public arena. Ron, I publicly want to thank you for your loyal friendship to Steve and I. I am so glad you and Robin have a new life away from this awful place. I really hope you share more about your experience in the bible college and how you eventually had no choice to but to speak up and what it cost you to do such.

BTW, I know Boss Martian and you guys would love each other! Two peas in a pod!

[aurora (aurora)]

Ron-
Have you stayed in contact with Ed Lutz? How are they doing?

[kirk (kirk)]

Thanks Jeannie,

You guys have always been our friends no matter inside or out of the Borg...

I think that your situation really impacted me more than you know. i watched carl destroy two families without the least care in the world. He exposed things to everyone that should never have been exposed.. But his motive was to slander and poision peoples minds with that information to gain what he really wanted. He was always paranoid that he did not have enough honor and loyalty from the college. So he took a personal incident and used it run one man out and place his personal asskisser in. Yes, I said it. When carl made the choice of wright, he commented that his choice was "pc and it would attract more black students and churches"... Yes it was carl's choice. There was no comittee or applications, nor was Ed lutz considered. Even though it was said that Ed turned down the offer. There was never any offer made. Carl know Ed couldn't and wouldn't kiss enough ass to satisfy he and Board of directors. Don't even get me started on those idiots..

Yes i have been slandered, marked and threatened, but i made sure from day one that i kept meticulous notes, discs and photocopies of all that i was involved with as well as all previous BOD meeting notes. So if gg people are thinking of a way to mess with me, be very careful...

If I sound angry, I am... It has been wonderful no to have anything to do with the cult for years, but i have been monitering this site for some time and am astounded at the devastaion the cult has caused. I am equally aghast at the stories from people in the past, and how their stories are the same. Abuse for over 45 years and the pattern never changed.

The hardest thing to deal with is the fact that i was a part of a CULT!

Jeanie,
Give our love to all!
Ron

[kirk (kirk)]

Aurora,

No i have not.. When we left i made sure that noone knew where we were going. No forwarding phone number or address. Even your closest friends have little or nothing to do with you once you leave, for fear of infection. It takes a while but eventually if you get out your mind goes back to normal and you sometimes contact those that left before you.

i did hear that they were out! We pray for them and wish them the best.

[yogi (yogi)]

"Captain" Kirk, you are a much welcomed voice here and represent a "blast from the past" for this bear. Though, unlike you, I lack the courage to step forward with name, rank and serial number, it is "AWESOME" to have your "PORTION" buddy! Empirical evidence is much needed to shut this "asylum" down, once and for all, if they will not make the necessary reforms!

Yogi

[yogi (yogi)]

Ps. Always loved the tatoo!

[yogi (yogi)]

Pss. Speaking of Wright, is he STILL kissing asses with his "silent complicity"? His daughter Jen spoke last year of being VERY disillusioned with how her father for allowing Carl to continue to use him!

Ed Lutz where are you? Hablar por favor, hablar!

Yogi

[kirk (kirk)]

Hey Yogi!

With all due respect, you cannot reform a rabid coyote unless you kill it. They will never reform. It must be killed to save the people. That is all i am concerned about. When the old dog is dead the other pups will take what little following they have and try to start a church to fuel their megalomania as well, or at least fend off the need to get a real job in the real world.

Remember, most could not and will not make it in the real world after all crumbles...
kirk

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Ron,

Thank you for your strong voice! It is more than just anger we all feel but outrage. The elders are feeling the heat of our collective outrage and their solution was the pathetic display on Sunday morning. As if those words would make this all go away. Now once again they are enlisting some on FN to once again approach them with grievances and further discussions. Some believe it is a step and a slightly open door. But an open door to what? There is talk of conflict resolution teams coming in. Does anyone really believe this is about conflict resolution? The outrage we are feel for the diabolical manipulations of CHS and company must be met with something more from elders other than more talk! NO MORE GAMES!

Mr. Marr if you are serious and sincere as some believe you to be then show us the fruit of your sincerity. We all know you read this forum, so I ask that you us address here, on the forum. Do not meet our serious outrage with anything less than serious. If you are sincere you will put your lawyer cap aside and address US with your intents. You are well aware your church is imploding and exploding at the same time. You will loose those from within and loose most of the branch ministries, you will have lawsuit coming in like a flood and you will attract national media attention! Is this how you want the GG saga to end?? I will not believe your sincerity until I see fruit. Talking to one or two in private is NOT PROOF. That is the same old GG way of doing business. YOU WANT TO BE BELIEVED? PROVE IT!

[yogi (yogi)]

"BOO-YA Jeannie" Damm girl you're good!

Kirk, unfortunately you are right! We must continue to pray for those who are the innocents in this drama and go after those bastards in the name of God and truth!

Yogi

[kirk (kirk)]

Jeannie,
Cut the head off and kill the offspring. Let the wounded go free to heal and put their live back together.
We may all be in the playground but it's their sandbox. We should all just find another sandbox, because once the cat poops in the sandbox all the sand has to go before it is safe to play in there again.

i appreciate what many are trying to do with reform, but remember all the early reformers never reformed the original church. they just went and found another sandbox to play in.
Eg. Luther, Calvin, Knox.

P.S. Yogi, email if you dare....
Ronaldkirkwood@comcast.net

[yogi (yogi)]

jeannie = Queen Esther

"for such a time as this" girlfriend!

Yogi

[chris (chris)]

R.J.,

Jack and I were talking with someone this morning about GGWO issues and the subject of child abuse came up. It was a very sobering conversation in light of all the sexual and physical abuse that has gone on for years within this organization that has been covered up.

I remember some of your earlier posts and your passion for all the children who have been abused. One in particular that broke my heart when I read it was from a young girl named Amy.

If you wouldn't mind, I would encourage you to refresh all of our memories again with the reality of what has gone on. It was, and is, a vital part of FactNet.

For the kids...

Chris

[minutus (minutus)]

Ron, pleased to meet you! Maybe you could tell us your story. I'm sure there are people still "in" who know you and have wondered what happened. Truth dispells BS.

[chris (chris)]

1 John 3:18--My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and truth.

True love always acts. For God so loved the world that He GAVE..



(Message edited by Chris on December 18, 2004)

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Ron,

Good to meet you, too. I have sent you an e-mail. Thank you for being MAN enough to say what needs to be said and for not just "talking the talk", but "walking the walk".

I wonder if there are any MEN at GGWO.

[lee (lee)]

Chris....isn't it 'funny' that that particular subject doesn't seem to go away. I am regularly reminded to pray for those that were recipients of perhaps the most detrimental abuse yet.
A touchy subject indeed.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

To Ron, Welcome to Factnet~!

I was in Robin's French class at MBC&amp;S back in 1995 Fall Semester. Remeber the Christmas party at my house that you guys came to, and she made the crepes...right after my cancer surgery 80 people came out that night. I remember the Foreign Students singing Christmas carols in their languages, many of the talented musicians we had brought their instruments and played/sang. It was one of the most memorable nights of my life. There was FELLOWSHIP IN THE HOLY SPIRIT there. That was the big thing for me. After that, however, things happened, I was falsely "marked" around the college...you know the ugly stories, you had to have heard them. Even I heard them!!! Sad to say, none of them were true.

I was sad to hear you had left 3 years ago. Asked tons of people where you had gone, either they pretended not to know why you left, or they said some hateful things about you and Robin to which I point blank cut them off. Well, when they weren't slandering me, it was you, and Robin and then the next poor soul that went against their lines of thinking.

Anyhow what's past is past. We have a great future in store for us. God is not mocked, His word doesn't come back void. I understand that you are angry, I've had to deal with instances of anger myself through this separation process.
Keep your focus on the Lord. He's the only one who doesn't betray friends.

I will keep you and Robin in my prayers. I always loved you two. I may even email you one day. Give my love to Robin.

Love Maria

[maria_t (maria_t)]

On repentance by Brian Bowman:
On Repentance,

Friends, true repentance is a PROCESS, it involves a growing awareness from deep within the soul concerning the gravity of one's actions that are incongruous to the Word and will of Almighty God. When offending Christian leaders are involved, the fruit of their repentance WILL BE DEMONSTRATED in how they lay down their lives for the sheep they have wounded and scattered.

The true outworking of this process of repentance in Christian Leadership is authenticated when the offender is honestly freed by the Holy Spirit into a brokenness that is willing to pursue a course of reconciliation and restitution to the offended, even when said course comes at great cost to the offender(s).

[minutus (minutus)]

Just for grins:

http://www.montypythonsspamalot.com/

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Hello Folks:

How a personal request gets granted and so much more! Boss Martian and Ron's posts were so poignant. A word I had to drop from my vocabulary was "Amazing", even though, I felt that those above posts were "Amazing".

May God lead all those Christian people still attending GGWO to the many healthy churches that exist already. It was painful for me to admit I was in a mind control cult but it was a necessary part of my healing.

I personally know many people whose lives were ruined irreparably by GGWO. I was just a kid when I was in the cult. God's helping hand has seen me through many dark times. Life is good now! I am glad to have found factnet where so many folks who were affected by the cult called TBS/GGWO can get information and let out their pain, as well as, correspond with old and new friends.

New readers, remember to go to http://www.carlstevens.org where there are many useful documents to read.

The GGWO leaders are charlatans. It is incredible that folks actually believe the men running GGWO care about Jesus and the Word of God. If they are genuine in their repentance they need to get out of the pretend pastor business completely. As it was articulately stated above by Boss and Ron, GGWO needs to go. It is rotten to the core.

Louise Connolly

[yogi (yogi)]

<font size="+2">YUP!</font>

[jeannie (jeannie)]

We are still waiting Mr. Marr....

I wrote this post eight months ago. Much has changed, many have left. But the elders continue to bear no fruit of sincerity behind their words with action. We are still waiting..




Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 10:43 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear A.Z...
I understand your position. I think the forum serves many purposes. This includes a place for people to seek understanding and healing. Another purpose, at least for me, was an opportunity to address the serious issues of errant doctrines and counterfeit leadership practices. The opportunity for real change is very difficult because of the closed system we are all forced to operate within. The forum has been a tool to press for that change. Unfortunately, even with the light being shined on these relevant issues from outside the closed system, it has had no effect on the leadership within. You are right on that account, but the very fact that the leadership digs their heels in even with light shining on them is also a purposeful tool to bring change. Maybe from within in GG this forum has not moved the leadership but it will cause others in the Christian community to take notice of all that happens behind the "GG Iron Curtain." It is apparent to many that GG has a strong system in place, it will only stay strong, holding it's members by control, manipulation and twisted doctrines if they can keep their system closed. I believe one of the purposes of this forum is to "take down that wall" as Reagan said years ago in Berlin to a similiar government. I had also hoped that at least one leader would use this forum to give himself the courage to stand in the light. It did not. I no longer believe there is any person in leadership that brave, without a leader standing in for the flock, all the words on this board will not bring the needed changes. Our church government allows no power or voice from the pews. A.Z. there is no plan of action discussed here because there is no action that could work from within. This was the same behind the Iron Curtain, I believe that Lech Walenzsa as a Polish labor leader is ultimately responsible for the wall coming down in Russia. A small movement in Poland took down Communism all over Eastern Europe and the Russian bear. It was a long and complex, removing brick by brick battle but eventually it all came down. We are in a similiar battle, it may take many factors and many years and this forum is just one brick being removed from the wall. God does not want his sheep harmed by those that represent Him. It is His work and His battle. It is up to each individual to be brave.. like Lech... and trust God for the rest, no matter how it appears by sight. I had the opportunity to live in Moscow after the wall came down in 1993. The effects of communism on the faces of the people and the landscape can not be described. How could such a beaten-down people have overthrown such a powerful government? the answer is they couldn't, just like GG members, it took the work and courage of many outside and within to bring that change. It will be the same for GGWO.

[brad (brad)]

Dave
Statistics is a whopper of a class. I passed with a low C. Best of wishes...
Know what you mean "Brain hurts".

Brad

[minutus (minutus)]

Thanks, Brad. The test was rough, but I think I'll get at least a B in the course. Unfortunately, if I want to get ahead in my field I'll be studying stats in one form or another the rest of my life http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Congrats Dave! Hope you have a great Christmas. Maybe you and Outi can join the crowd next Thanksgiving!

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Lamentations 3:24 The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.

[minutus (minutus)]

Thanks, Jim. That's a great idea. Or some of you cold folks up north could head down this way.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

I think next year it's in San Antonio and we're kinda 'down here.'

[arguendo (arguendo)]

"Mr. Marr if you are serious and sincere as some believe you to be then show us the fruit of your sincerity. We all know you read this forum, so I ask that you us address here, on the forum."

It is absolutely fair to ask that Marr answer your inquiries regarding GGWO. However, it is absolutely unfair to ask that he do it here. He will not. Never. I would not. Never. And the fact that he will not do it here is an unfair measure of his sincerity. You want to know, call him or write him. If GGWO is serious, they should be able to commit to their intentions in writing.

"Do not meet our serious outrage with anything less than serious. If you are sincere you will put your lawyer cap aside and address US with your intents."

As long as he is counsel for GGWO or CHS, he can't take off his lawyer cap regarding GGWO or CHS.

"You are well aware your church is imploding and exploding at the same time. You will loose those from within and loose most of the branch ministries, you will have lawsuit coming in like a flood and you will attract national media attention!"

Exactly why he cannot address concerns here and cannot indulge in vetting personal feelings regarding GGWO/CHS in public.

"Is this how you want the GG saga to end?? I will not believe your sincerity until I see fruit. Talking to one or two in private is NOT PROOF. That is the same old GG way of doing business. YOU WANT TO BE BELIEVED? PROVE IT!"

What GGWO decides to do and what Marr does on the behalf of GGWO/CHS are two separate things.

I'm not defending Marr, but it's like you are asking a duck to bark like a dog. Even if Marr were inclined to do what you ask, he couldn't do it.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

FYI and per personal request:

Clean Hands Doctrine
n. Under the clean hands doctrine, a person who has acted wrongly, either morally or legally - that is, who has 'unclean hands' - will not be helped by a court when complaining about the actions of someone else. The person's activities that weren't involved in the legal action can be abominable because they are considered irrelevant. For example, a defendant may claim that the plaintiff violates the clean hands doctrine because the plaintiff has misled the defendant or done something incorrectly regarding the matter being considered. For example: A former partner sues on a claim that he was owed money on a consulting contract with the partnership when he left, but the defense states that the plaintiff has tried to get customers from the partnership by spreading untrue stories about the remaining partner's business practices.


Galatians 6:1-5 (ESV)
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. [2] Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. [3] For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. [4] But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. [5] For each will have to bear his own load.


Matthew 7:3-5 (ESV)
Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? [4] Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? [5] You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.


1 Cor. 6:1-8 (ESV)
When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? [2] Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? [3] Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! [4] So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? [5] I say this to your shame. <u>Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, [6] but brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers? </u> [7] To have lawsuits at all with one another is already a defeat for you. Why not rather suffer wrong? Why not rather be defrauded? [8] But you yourselves wrong and defraud—even your own brothers!

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Jim...you have mail

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Why isn't the Maryland Bar Association concerned that Marr is part of a known cult that has been involved in the past with criminal activity (Dovedenas case).

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on December 19, 2004)

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Thank you Arguendo,

You always give the judicial perspective that I most certainly lack. You are correct that the duck will never bark. But is that not part of the problem? Mr. Marr is both the duck and the dog. As well as the duck can't bark neither can the dog quack. How can an elder in this type of situation say he sees the need for repentance and reform and also be the attorney leaning in saying "don't answer that question, it admits guilt?" I am not of the legal mind, Arguendo but common sense seems to say maybe Mr.Marr should decide whether he wants to be the dog or the duck?

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Doyvedenas (sp?) was a civil matter, not a criminal matter.

When the law looks at GGWO, it sees people engaging in religious activity. It is not illegal to be apart of or start a cult. Being a part of a cult is free exercise of religion. The idea of "cult" is bit of an anachronism where the law is concerned. In order to assess something as a "cult" the law would have to make a doctrinal assessment. The law doesn't do that, nor do you want it to do that. That's why cults get busted on other things, like tax evasion, fire arm violations, or drug abuse.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

In England the "Dog and Duck" is a great pub.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

"I am not of the legal mind, Arguendo but common sense seems to say maybe Mr.Marr should decide whether he wants to be the dog or the duck?"

There's thousands of stockholder's from Enron and Worldcom that agree with you, Jeannie.

(Message edited by arguendo on December 23, 2004)

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Ron Kirkwood!

I began the GGWO 'Ordination Program' about the time you left. I knew that you had sat for the exam and I was devestated *not* to see you on the platform during the ceremony. Later, after realizing that you and Robin were gone, I asked one of the Pastors local to Baltimore what had happen to you. He replied '... well Brian I cannot tell you everything I know, but I do know that there were some "descrepancies" on Ron Kirkwood's written Ordination Exam'.

I never forgot this comment during the two years that passed (2002-2004) as I studied 15+ hours per week for the GGWO Ordination Exam. I know you to be a man of impeccible character and I am convinced that you would not have lied or misrepresented the truth of God's Holy Word in any way on your exam.

These things "stuck" in my mind for those two years and were part of what motivated me to study ONLY to search for TRUTH in God's Word and NOT simply for the answers the GGWO Ordination process was look for. I have already written much about this in previous Factnet posts.

Anyway, much grace to you Ron. I miss your good humor and wonderful character. If you want to email, please contact me at nonotone@mac.com.


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

[kirk (kirk)]

HI Brian,
I remember you.. How are you and Ana? (i think there is an "e" somewhere in her name) Sorry...

The "descrepancies" must have been where i would not pledge my total allegance to the King Borg, and swear to name my first born child after him... If you took the written exam, then you know what i mean. Or it could be that out of a room full of people i was one out of three people that were actually taking the exam..

I really don't want to get into defending my exam,so i will only say this and then i'm done. Neils Dejong corrected my exam and said i did great, and he too was perplexed at the outcome. If he is still a man of character he will attest to that. The other question becomes, if i had doctrinal issues don't you think they should have checked me before i started teaching in the College 2 years prior? Or maybe they should have checked where i got my degrees from? (MBC) If i was sooo off then why would carl have me in his pulpit, teaching his class and doing Radio?
However, I would be more than happy to expose what i know regarding this Bogus Exercise.

If you went through this process did you get to have your 3 hour oral exam? Did you get to go into the room with Lewis and his gutless pussies?
Did you get the intense theological questions? You know, "Does your wife attend three services a week? does she do outreach? do you do outreach? How many raps does she attend? do you attend?" " Don't lie, because my wife Kathy, and the other church police keep track".
The best question was " Are you REALLY one with Dr. Stevens and his vision?"

The whole program unfortunately had become bull****.. If it were not then why did the man who developed it and wrote the first few exams quit the ordination Board? That was also one of the reasons he wouldn't sponsor candidates any longer.

That process was the epitome of the Good Ole Boys Club. If you only knew the "Pastors" that never went through that process, it would make you sick.

If you only knew that being one of CHS, Lewis, Shaller, Scibelli, etc. bible carriers would guarantee you papers without having to crack a book.

SAD, very SAD...

[doris (doris)]

Delaware gives people the "pastor" title without going thru GGWO. Several are called "pastor" up there publicly. You get the title if you do what Wisot says without thinking with your own brain.

[kirk (kirk)]

YUP! Same down in Baltimore. That's where it started.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Sounds like "Stepford Pastors R US"

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Thanks Ron,

You're closer to my wife's name than many - it's Anne (pronounced Ahn'ney). Anyway, no I resigned from the Ordination Process before I actually took the written or oral exam. I 'formally' held the 'Lisense to Preach' for 1 year but was in the program for 2.

Bottom line for me. I completed less than 40 total hours of MBC&amp;S - including transfer credits from other schools. However, at the time we moved back to NC (spring 2002), I was still very loyal to CHS/GGWO. Without wanting to sound 'cocky', I believe my high academic standards are well known. CHS agreed to be my ordination sponsor and I set out to "master" the ordination material. Dr. Lewis was also "cool" with all of this (at the time).

Anyway, the bottom line for me was after 100's and 100's of hours of studying the KJV, Basic Hebrew/Greek exegesis, Chafer, Ryrie, Stanford, Scofield, Larkin, (... you know the "original sources" that CHS studied in his early years) along with the DTS 'BibSac' journal; I came to a startling conclusion that many of Steven's doctrines (especially the Spiritual Authority, One Pastor/Teacher, Body of Christ, and Psycho-sexual stuff) are a bunch of "HOT AIR" that no real, balanced, and properly lettered (read EARNED DOCTRATE) evangelical scholar could get on board with.

Since I live 40 miles from one of the finest Southern Baptist Seminaries in the world (Southeastern in Wake Forrest, NC), I came to the conclusion that I was not about to go preaching the CHS/GGWO message in my neck of the woods.

At the same time, I also basically "became a Calvinist" with respect to soteriology. In other words I believe that God is SOVEREIGN in His elective purpose and that He does not elect anyone based upon foreknowledge that they would choose Him in time. As far as I can tell Chafer taught a Calvinistic soteriology as well. CHS apparently got his from Bob Jones, Jack Hyles, and other Arminian right-wing fundies.


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

(Message edited by nonotone on December 23, 2004)

[minutus (minutus)]

For everyone who blessed me with prayer, I just found out that I received an A for the course. It must have been your prayers, because I left the final with a bad feeling.

Next project: True repentance in the Borg Collective http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Rockin' good news!

[free_to_be_off (free_to_be_off)]

Ron &amp; Brian,

Gentlemen, it sounds like you two may have intimidated these GED graduates with your intellect. After all, are these men that you really respect? It sure doesn't sound like it, so wipe the dust off your feet, consider the source and keep up the fight for freeing the oppressed and used.Based upon your posts and for what it's worth, I for one admire you both very much!

FTBO

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Dave (Carson), congratulations on your Statistics grade.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

FTBO,

Initially, I did respect most of these men for two basic reasons:

1) Many of them have years of experience on difficult foreign mission fields, and in spite of their allegience to CHS, have measures of Godly character as a result of this sacrifical service.

2) I simply did not know enough to know what I did not know. My educational and professional background are in advanced R&amp;D for Computer Operating and Database Systems. This provided the critical thinking skills but not the kind of broad and deep background in theology that one needs to sift through the rhetoric at GGWO/MBC&amp;S.

It was not until I moved away from Balitmore, began fellowshipping with Evangelicals *outside* of GGWO, AND began an intense course of personal study (using the VERY SAME materials that CHS claims to have built his "foundation" upon - I might add) that I began to REALLY SEE just how twisted and strange much of the CHS/TBS/GGWO so-called "doctrinal system" really is.

FWIW, I think that a person CAN have tremendous Christ-like character, a great Theological Educational (obtained by some combination of formal and self-directed study), be "Spirit-led", and humbly submissive to a reasonable system of accoutability to both local Church Government AND the larger Body of Christ.


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Nicely said Brian...thanks.

Maria

[atotaljesusfreak (atotaljesusfreak)]

I still think the hardest part to believe is that so many people experienced the same exact circumstances (like the ordination questions that Ron spoke of, as well as other issues) and they were able to make us all think for so long that we were just an isolated case. incredible! Well I know of some people that I think have had the wool pulled over their eyes in an affiliate ministry that I will be speaking to at some length about these issues.

In Love,
Michael Kenny

[brisbane (brisbane)]

My loved ones and my friends stand aloof from my plague, And my relatives stand afar off. Those also who seek my life lay snares for me; Those who seek my hurt speak of destruction, And plan deception all the day long. But I, like a deaf man, do not hear; And I am like a mute who does not open his mouth. Thus I am like a man who does not hear, And in whose mouth is no response. For in You, O God, I hope; You will hear, O Lord my God. For I said, "Hear me, lest they rejoice over me, Lest, when my foot slips, they exalt themselves against me." For I am ready to fall, And my sorrow is continually before me. For I will declare my iniquity; I will be in anguish over my sin. But my enemies are vigorous, and they are strong; And those who hate me wrongfully have multiplied. Those also who render evil for good, They are my adversaries, because I follow what is good. Do not forsake me, O God; O my God, be not far from me! Make haste to help me, O Lord, my salvation! I said, "I will guard my ways, Lest I sin with my tongue; I will restrain my mouth with a muzzle, While the wicked are before me." I was mute with silence, I held my peace even from good; And my sorrow was stirred up. My heart was hot within me; While I was musing, the fire burned. Then I spoke with my tongue: God, make me to know my end, And what is the measure of my days, That I may know how frail I am. Indeed, You have made my days as handbreadths, And my age is as nothing before You; Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor. Surely every man walks about like a shadow; Surely they busy themselves in vain; He heaps up riches, And does not know who will gather them. And now, Lord, what do I wait for? My hope is in You. Deliver me from all my transgressions; Do not make me the reproach of the foolish. I was mute, I did not open my mouth, Because it was You who did it. Remove Your plague from me; I am consumed by the blow of Your hand. When with rebukes You correct man for iniquity, You make his beauty melt away like a moth; Surely every man is vapor. Hear my prayer, O God, And give ear to my cry Do not be silent at my tears; For I am a stranger with You, A sojourner, as all my fathers were. Remove Your gaze from me, that I may regain strength, Before I go away and am no more. I waited patiently for the God; And He inclined to me, And heard my cry. He also brought me up out of a horrible pit, Out of the miry clay, And set my feet upon a rock, And established my steps. He has put a new song in my mouth Praise to our God; Many will see it and fear, And will trust in the God. Blessed is that man who makes the God his trust, And does not respect the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies. Many, O God my God, are Your wonderful works Which You have done; And Your thoughts toward us Cannot be recounted to You in order; If I would declare and speak of them, They are more than can be numbered. Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require. Then I said, "Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart. I have proclaimed the good news of righteousness In the great assembly; Indeed, I do not restrain my lips, O God, You Yourself know. I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart; I have declared Your faithfulness and Your salvation; I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth From the great assembly. Do not withhold Your tender mercies from me, O God; Let Your lovingkindness and Your truth continually preserve me. For innumerable evils have surrounded me; My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to look up; They are more than the hairs of my head; Therefore my heart fails me. Be pleased, O God, to deliver me; O God, make haste to help me! Let them be ashamed and brought to mutual confusion Who seek to destroy my life; Let them be driven backward and brought to dishonor Who wish me evil. Let them be confounded because of their shame, Who say to me, "Aha, aha!" Let all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; Let such as love Your salvation say continually, The God be magnified! But I am poor and needy; Yet the God thinks upon me. You are my help and my deliverer; Do not delay, O my God. Blessed is he who considers the poor; The God will deliver him in time of trouble. The God will preserve him and keep him alive, And he will be blessed on the earth; You will not deliver him to the will of his enemies. The God will strengthen him on his bed of illness; You will sustain him on his sickbed. I said, "God, be merciful to me; Heal my soul, for I have sinned against You." My enemies speak evil of me: "When will he die, and his name perish?" And if he comes to see me, he speaks lies; His heart gathers iniquity to itself; When he goes out, he tells it. All who hate me whisper together against me; Against me they devise my hurt. An evil disease," they say, "clings to him. And now that he lies down, he will rise up no more. Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me. But You, O God, be merciful to me, and raise me up, That I may repay them. By this I know that You are well pleased with me, Because my enemy does not triumph over me. As for me, You uphold me in my integrity, And set me before Your face forever. Blessed be the God God of Israel From everlasting to everlasting! Amen and Amen. As the deer pants for the water brooks, So pants my soul for You, O God. My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When shall I come and appear before God? My tears have been my food day and night, While they continually say to me, "Where is your God?" When I remember these things, I pour out my soul within me. For I used to go with the multitude; I went with them to the house of God, With the voice of joy and praise, With a multitude that kept a pilgrim feast. Why are you cast down, O my soul? And why are you disquieted within me? Hope in God, for I shall yet praise Him For the help of His countenance. O my God, my soul is cast down within me; Therefore I will remember You from the land of the Jordan, And from the heights of Hermon, From the Hill Mizar. Deep calls unto deep at the noise of Your waterfalls; All Your waves and billows have gone over me. The God will command His lovingkindness in the daytime, And in the night His song shall be with me- A prayer to the God of my life. I will say to God my Rock, "Why have You forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?" As with a breaking of my bones, My enemies reproach me, While they say to me all day long, "Where is your God?" Why are you cast down, O my soul? And why are you disquieted within me? Hope in God; For I shall yet praise Him, The help of my countenance and my God. Iindicate me, O God, And plead my cause against an ungodly nation; Oh, deliver me from the deceitful and unjust man! For You are the God of my strength; Why do You cast me off? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy? Oh, send out Your light and Your truth! Let them lead me; Let them bring me to Your holy hill And to Your tabernacle. Then I will go to the altar of God, To God my exceeding joy; And on the harp I will praise You, O God, my God. Why are you cast down, O my soul? And why are you disquieted within me? Hope in God; For I shall yet praise Him, The help of my countenance and my God. We have heard with our ears, O God, Our fathers have told us, The deeds You did in their days, In days of old: You drove out the nations with Your hand, But them You planted; You afflicted the peoples, and cast them out. For they did not gain possession of the land by their own sword, Nor did their own arm save them; But it was Your right hand, Your arm, and the light of Your countenance, Because You favored them. You are my King, O God; Command victories for Jacob. Through You we will push down our enemies; Through Your name we will trample those who rise up against us. For I will not trust in my bow, Nor shall my sword save me. But You have saved us from our enemies, And have put to shame those who hated us. In God we boast all day long, And praise Your name forever. But You have cast us off and put us to shame, And You do not go out with our armies. You make us turn back from the enemy, And those who hate us have taken spoil for themselves. You have given us up like sheep intended for food, And have scattered us among the nations. You sell Your people for next to nothing, And are not enriched by selling them. You make us a reproach to our neighbors, A scorn and a derision to those all around us. You make us a byword among the nations, A shaking of the head among the peoples. My dishonor is continually before me, And the shame of my face has covered me, Because of the voice of him who reproaches and reviles, Because of the enemy and the avenger. All this has come upon us; But we have not forgotten You, Nor have we dealt falsely with Your covenant. Our heart has not turned back, Nor have our steps departed from Your way; But You have severely broken us in the place of jackals, And covered us with the shadow of death. If we had forgotten the name of our God, Or stretched out our hands to a foreign god, Would not God search this out? For He knows the secrets of the heart. Yet for Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Awake! Why do You sleep, O Lord? Arise! Do not cast us off forever. Why do You hide Your face, And forget our affliction and our oppression? For our soul is bowed down to the dust; Our body clings to the ground. Arise for our help, And redeem us for Your mercies' sake. My heart is overflowing with a good theme; I recite my composition concerning the King; My tongue is the pen of a ready writer. You are fairer than the sons of men; Grace is poured upon Your lips; Therefore God has blessed You forever. Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One, With Your glory and Your majesty. And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness; And Your right hand shall teach You awesome things. Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King's enemies; The peoples fall under You. Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions. All Your garments are scented with myrrh and aloes and cassia, Out of the ivory palaces, by which they have made You glad. Kings' daughters are among Your honorable women; At Your right hand stands the queen in gold from Ophir. Listen, O daughter, Consider and incline your ear; Forget your own people also, and your father's house; So the King will greatly desire your beauty; Because He is your Lord, worship Him. And the daughter of Tyre will come with a gift; The rich among the people will seek your favor. The royal daughter is all glorious within the palace; Her clothing is woven with gold. She shall be brought to the King in robes of many colors; The virgins, her companions who follow her, shall be brought to You. With gladness and rejoicing they shall be brought; They shall enter the King's palace. Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons, Whom You shall make princes in all the earth. I will make Your name to be remembered in all generations; Therefore the people shall praise You forever and ever. God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble.m Therefore we will not fear, Even though the earth be removed, And though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; Though its waters roar and be troubled, Though the mountains shake with its swelling. There is a river whose streams shall make glad the city of God, The holy place of the tabernacle of the Most High. God is in the midst of her, she shall not be moved; God shall help her, just at the break of dawn. The nations raged, the kingdoms were moved; He uttered His voice, the earth melted. The God of hosts is with us; The God of Jacob is our refuge. Come, behold the works of the God, Who has made desolations in the earth. He makes wars cease to the end of the earth; He breaks the bow and cuts the spear in two; He burns the chariot in the fire. Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth! The God of hosts is with us; The God of Jacob is our refuge Oh, clap your hands, all you peoples! Shout to God with the voice of triumph! For the God Most High is awesome; He is a great King over all the earth. He will subdue the peoples under us, And the nations under our feet. He will choose our inheritance for us, The excellence of Jacob whom He loves. God has gone up with a shout, The God with the sound of a trumpet. Sing praises to God, sing praises! Sing praises to our King, sing praises! For God is the King of all the earth; Sing praises with understanding. God reigns over the nations; God sits on His holy throne. The princes of the people have gathered together, The people of the God of Abraham. For the shields of the earth belong to God; He is greatly exalted.
Great is the God, and greatly to be praised In the city of our God, In His holy mountain. Beautiful in elevation, The joy of the whole earth, Is Mount Zion on the sides of the north, The city of the great King. God is in her palaces; He is known as her refuge. For behold, the kings assembled, They passed by together. They saw it, and so they marveled; They were troubled, they hastened away. Fear took hold of them there, And pain, as of a woman in birth pangs, As when You break the ships of Tarshish With an east wind. As we have heard, So we have seen In the city of the God of hosts, In the city of our God: God will establish it forever. We have thought, O God, on Your lovingkindness, In the midst of Your temple. According to Your name, O God, So is Your praise to the ends of the earth; Your right hand is full of righteousness. Let Mount Zion rejoice, Let the daughters of Judah be glad, Because of Your judgments. Walk about Zion, And go all around her. Count her towers; Mark well her bulwarks; Consider her palaces; That you may tell it to the generation following. For this is God, Our God forever and ever; He will be our guide Even to death Hear this, all peoples; Give ear, all inhabitants of the world, Both low and high, Rich and poor together. My mouth shall speak wisdom, And the meditation of my heart shall give understanding. I will incline my ear to a proverb; I will disclose my dark saying on the harp. Why should I fear in the days of evil, When the iniquity at my heels surrounds me? Those who trust in their wealth And boast in the multitude of their riches, None of them can by any means redeem his brother, Nor give to God a ransom for him-- For the redemption of their souls is costly, And it shall cease forever-- That he should continue to live eternally, And not see the Pit. For he sees wise men die; Likewise the fool and the senseless person perish, And leave their wealth to others. Their inner thought is that their houses will last forever, Their dwelling places to all generations; They call their lands after their own names. Nevertheless man, though in honor, does not remain; He is like the beasts that perish. This is the way of those who are foolish, And of their posterity who approve their sayings.Selah Like sheep they are laid in the grave; Death shall feed on them; The upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; And their beauty shall be consumed in the grave, far from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave, For He shall receive Do not be afraid when one becomes rich, When the glory of his house is increased; For when he dies he shall carry nothing away; His glory shall not descend after him. Though while he lives he blesses himself (For men will praise you when you do well for yourself), He shall go to the generation of his fathers; They shall never see light. A man who is in honor, yet does not understand, Is like the beasts that perish. The Mighty One, God the God, Has spoken and called the earth From the rising of the sun to its going down. Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God will shine forth. Our God shall come, and shall not keep silent; A fire shall devour before Him, And it shall be very tempestuous all around Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, And to the earth, that He may judge His people: "Gather My saints together to Me, Those who have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice." Let the heavens declare His righteousness, For God Himself is Judge. "Hear, O My people, and I will speak, O Israel, and I will testify against you; I am God, your God! I will not rebuke you for your sacrifices Or your burnt offerings, Which are continually before Me. I will not take a bull from your house, Nor goats out of your folds. For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on a thousand hills. I know all the birds of the mountains, And the wild beasts of the field are Mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell you; For the world is Mine, and all its fullness. Will I eat the flesh of bulls, Or drink the blood of goats? Offer to God thanksgiving, And pay your vows to the Most High. Call upon Me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall glorify Me." But to the wicked God says: "What right have you to declare My statutes, Or take My covenant in your mouth, Seeing you hate instruction And cast My words behind you? When you saw a thief, you consented with him, And have been a partaker with adulterers. You give your mouth to evil, And your tongue frames deceit. You sit and speak against your brother; You slander your own mother's son. These things you have done, and I kept silent; You thought that I was altogether like you; But I will rebuke you, And set them in order before your eyes. "Now consider this, you who forget God, Lest I tear you in pieces, And there be none to deliver: Whoever offers praise glorifies Me; And to him who orders his conduct aright I will show the salvation of God.

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>brisbane;Hi again ericb.

Dave</font>}

[itstimetomoveon (itstimetomoveon)]

brisbane?
Brisbane - Queensland - Australia - suburbs

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>brisbane's IP

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The continuity of deception once again.

Dave</font>}

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>brisbane;to him who orders his conduct aright I will show the salvation of God.

You really ought to apply this to your own actions.If you are capable that is.

You also ought to learn the proper use of scripture.If you are capable that is.


That is all.


Dave</font>}

[minutus (minutus)]

The essence of Greater Grace: small men who can't stand behind the word they twist.

[itstimetomoveon (itstimetomoveon)]

Yes Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi
Wise one. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif
Just a joke for all those
Star Wars fans.....

[minutus (minutus)]

Obi-Wan had it right as he waved his hand: These aren't the pastors you're looking for...