Questions for Pastors leaving GGWO

[offshore (offshore)]

To any pastors who would be willing to come out into our FactNet family, would you be willing to discuss some of these questions. These are not indictments.

I would also like to know what opinions people have about GGWO pastors or elders who are leaving, or who will be leaving when they get their severance package, to start new churches?


Are they going to be ministering out of their brokenness?

Will they continue to portray the GGWO Pastor stereotype with double honor and loyalty, a must above all else?

Will you still embrace the concept of “exclusivity”?

Will erroneous doctrines continue to be taught?

Will it be a priority to learn how to rethink Truth in order to stop further damage to the people in their new ministry?

Will all that they have learned from CHS continue to leak out of their minds and hearts?

Will they be able to pour out from the overflow in their spirits, instead of pouring out from the deficit?

Does anyone think it might be a healthy thing to take some time off from being a pastor, after coming out of a cult?

Will they be true “image-bearers” of God?

If it was of enough concern for them to want to disaffiliate, would they consider that they may need to seek some help or be mentored for a season?


Were there any “cover-ups” or “don’t look, don’t hear, don’t think” policies that were underlying suppressions of truth?

I do not mean this as an indictment, or a measure of inadequacy, I simply have a few questions. I want to know what you are going to do to restore your minds and hearts before you continue to minister to many who may be very broken, needy, disillusioned and hurting.

[lee (lee)]

Offshore,
I think, for certain there are things each one will have to rethink. Facing truth in such a public way will be difficult for some , especially if one enjoys a public repsect and if that is important to them. For some, it may be quite an embarassment to speak candidly to those of us here. I understand we aren't thought too highly of. And, not everyone can speak candidly to anyone!

Some may be blown over by all the revelations of what has been hidden for years. I know for us, what we've learned in the past year has been quite difficult to swallow, and we thought we knew stuff! Ha! we knew a bit. This years revelations has added to it immensely.

All of us will have to move through a process of coming out. I guess it depends on how much we believed what we were taught and what we were privy to in terms of things covered up. We can't say how long it will take anyone to move through the stages.

I think some pastors have genuinely looked at other modes of church growth, government and even doctrine over the years they have been out and changed things while under the banner of GGWO.

I do not understand the blind loyalty and faithfulness to one man, his doctrines, which if pressed, they will say are secondary but they hold them so dear, that they are clearly most important. The stories of abuse. There is enough info that if they would read objectively, they would be staggered. Why they would want to stay hitched is hard to understand, especially, if they are really seeking to truly feed the sheep and build up the body.

I also don't understand the attitude of some that says 'get up and get beyond this, now'. It's more than just feeling bad for something that transpired between individuals, but it often means people back off from their relationship with God, the Bible is thrown away and they don't ever return to any kind of fellowship. Doesn't a pastor leave the flock to find the one lost one? Or does that just mean go soulwinning and get more people?

I think Offshore, that those of us on FN probably will not hear from those we once considered friends, because we are now considered responsible for upsetting their world and for uncovering those things that they believe should have stayed covered. Even though they now know how bad it really was. It may take a long long time before they digest it all.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Hey I'm glad you upset my so called world. It has brought my relationship with Christ to a much more personal level.
I am sure more can say this, though some who left still don't read fact net, and some do but don't post.
Really I don't believe you upset it, I believe God has allowed all of this to take place. He wants His people back.

[minutus (minutus)]

The thoughtful ones are re-evaluating everything:

What do they believe?
What does their call mean?
What does a pastor look like?
What does a church look like?
Do they want to continue with the new affiliation?
Are there other ministry associations that would fit them and their churches better?
What have they as individuals done to prop up the tottering GGWO system and how can they reconcile with the ones they jettisoned to accomplish that?

I've e-mailed, met, and spoken with a few over the last few weeks. The "legacy" has exacted a brutal price from those closest to Barad-Dur. Some have become wraiths in a sense, hovering between two worlds after having the life sucked out of them. I do not envy them.

[lee (lee)]

Yes, pressing on, God certainly allowed it. He uses people to do his will though, and those of us who post here and have stuck our necks out to tell stories and say things that will, in the end upset peoples worlds, will, do and have experienced what many whistle blowers experience. I'm not saying I'm sorry in anyway, I am not. I would prefer to act in a more gentle manner, but when a world is upset, it is not gentle!

I'm glad pressing on that you are focussed on God, that he is your guide and you are going through all this so strongly. There will bbe many of us who look forward to what will come of God's people in the next phase of their lives! Blessings to you.

[lana (lana)]

Rebounding without consequences?? That makes as much sense as a killer, rebounding and exempt from jail. When you hurt others with your sin, it will ome back upon you. Personal sins, can be repented of personally.

[offshore (offshore)]

Lee,
Yep! You’re absolutely right!
I completely forgot about the pride issue.
Also, my point is....do these "Pastors" really think they are qualified to be leading people NOW?
Personally, I don't think so. It has taken many of us, years to process through the the foundational lies that were taught to us.
They are the ones who need to take some time and get some inner healing and revelation abut what they are getting out of.
I have heard first hand that several are going to be planting churches. Is it because they can't do anything else but Pastor a church?
Even though they don't realize it, they will be caring for a flock out of their own brokenness.
On the other hand, I am thrilled that they may see more clearly everyday, once they are away from Home base. However, I still wonder if they are now healthy enough to be leading more people.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

I'm sorry I didn't mean to make a joke of shaking my world. It has been a very rough journey, but a needed one.
By the way I am not always strong. I just have to believe God at His word, there is no other way.
Yes, sometimes I doubt but God seems to come through at the right moments.
I think of Mary when she was with child, she must have had the most trying days of her life, who would actually believe her story. She must have been overwhelmed by the attacks, how could she really explain it. But I recall her statement "Let it be as God has said".
This is the faith that carried her through.
We will never have all questions answered, But we do have the one that has already been where we have and will someday be.
Blessings to you also.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Hello Offshore, Blessings to you also

[offshore (offshore)]

I posted this earlier as this issue has be really on my mind.
Many of the leaders and elders do, in fact, need to be accountable and need to come clean.
Yes, it would be so incredibly healing to hear from them, “I’m so sorry for hurting you, for using you, and I didn’t represent the true character of God to you . Please, can you forgive me for the hurt, pain, and anguish I have caused you ?”


What if an elder, leader or pastor, stood up and said this? What if he really meant it ?

First, they would have to be enlightened that they have done something wrong. The light goes on!
Secondly, upon that realization, they hopefully would fall on their face before God, at least in their spirit, and experience the gift of repentance.
Thirdly, they would actually go to those they have injured and ask forgiveness. They would do what ever it took to make it right. Hopefully, it would be tearful repentance.

This process has a beginning and an end. They must start at the beginning point. Painful as it is, the beginning point for them is not the end result. The end result is what will be healing for us. They just aren’t there yet. Some may never get there.
But being out and away from GGWO, has to happen in order for the mind to even begin to think with clarity.
For some, it may never happen. Some have been indoctrinated for 30 years. It’s going to take a lot of work to rethink Truth.

This is encouraging also…We are conversing with TBS/GGWO ex-leaders on Factnet daily. They are exploring like all the rest of us. They come on Factnet to encourage and to be encouraged. Like all of us, they also had a beginning point of exit.
We are all equal here.
I think we all need each other in a very healthy sense.
For once, we can all be from the same dysfunctional organization, be totally “out”, and actually do the most unlikely GGWO thing called, talking, communicating, disputing and wrestling for answers.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Amen, offshore

[jeannie (jeannie)]

I posted this on another thread but wanted to add it here to the discussion:


I think it is very complicated to figure out the reasons so many of us were led to TBS/GGWO in the first place and why it took us so long to exit. Also I think so many are exiting now because more information is being offered and in varying degrees, the blinders are finally coming off as this group crumbles.

An interesting book on this subject is "Toxic Faith" by Stephen Arterburn and Jack Felton. They explore toxic faith from the viewpoint of an addiction. The paradox of toxic faith in relationship to other addictions is the issue of moderation. The goal in other addictions is either abstinence or moderation. But faith is not this way. True faith cannot be practiced in moderation. Toxic faith is poisoned faith. It is very difficult to detox the elements of toxic faith and restore true faith in God. One finds himself at a place where the blinders come off and the task of untangling true faith from faith in a counterfeit system is a difficult one. I believe for some it is easier to put the blinders back on tighter than deal with heart issues in the soul.

I observed the current downfall of GGWO from the inside over two years ago. I had my blinders removed completely in the 6-8 years prior to finally leaving. But as is the case of many women in GGWO, the step of seeing things and leaving is a huge one. In my case, my husband was a staff pastor and he did not "see" the things I was seeing. Just voicing the truth within the family unit came at great cost. Within this toxic faith system, one knows to speak the truth means lost of everything precious. I know firsthand how CHS and company will stop at nothing to destroy the partner voicing dissent. I don't believe everyone is capable of withstanding a loss of their own precious family. It is too difficult to become untangled, so they stay. But over the past year and a half the group is unraveling, many are leaving and there is strength in numbers. You may be marked and shunned for departing but one is marked and shunned with a large portion of your community joining you. Exiting is made easier.

I watched how the leadership handled the more current crisis of Carl's drug addiction. And I observe the new regime of Schaller/Schibelli/Love. I have come to believe the crux of the matter comes down to this: The principle of submission was placed above the principle of integrity. GGWO leadership became an operation void of integrity. The currency was submission instead of integrity. Integrity was removed from circulation. It would be similar to walking into a store here in the states and trying to purchase a product with Russian Rubles. Rubles are of no value in America.. same is true in GGWO.. there is no value placed on it. What was apparent to me or anyone else whose blinders removed is this complete void of integrity within the system. Carl was incapacitated due to drug abuse, anyone with integrity would observe: 1. the man needs intervention 2. it is wrong to allow him to speak from the pulpit or counsel anyone under the influence 3. It is wrong to get behind the pulpit and lie to the people in the pews that Carl is having "problems with his back .. these actions obvious lack integrity. But if a whole system puts no value on integrity, it does not profit them to operate in it. Submission to the system, the man, the legacy is the current currency. It is the thing most valued in GGWO. If you don't think so, than look who is the current king. He valued submission over integrity and the mantle was passed to him. He promotes in every message the value of submitting to the legacy. Until these leaders make integrity their currency nothing will change in GGWO. They will pull more converts into their entangled web. And the cycle of Toxic Faith will continue.

[lee (lee)]

Jeannie, I think you're right, its a matter of values. It comes as a surprise to me when I know someone who just doesn't have the same values. We don't usually have too many relationships where values of this type are tested. That kind of testing is usually for marraige and very close relationships. Who would've thought it would be the person sitting in the next pew (chair) That kind of intimacy is rare amongst friends.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

It'd funny, Lee, Off-Sore, Pressing On,Lana,Minutus...(good thing it's a short thread!),

I was considering this morning how the whole picture on Frankford Ave is so different from the Bible itself. On the 'Plaza' damage control and cover-up are the modus operendi yet God openly allows faults and weaknesses to be exposed in his word. I mean we knew all about David's affair with Bathsheba and it's consequenses, How about his behavior that led to the massacre of the priests when he tried to save his own life. Murdering Bathsheba's husband through a well planned military maneuver. Then there is Moses with his anger, killing the Egyptian, striking the rock twice. Look at what happened to Nebuchanezzar when he put himself in the place of God: he was reduced to lunacy and animal behavior. But in the end he was weeping with gratitude because he understood God cared enough to humble him in his pride and he experienced the peace of heart and mind that accompanies letting God be God. Everything we have is on loan to us, our breath is not ours to keep, we breath in and let it out and every breath is given to us that we need. Power is a scarey thing. David was elevated to Kingship in spite of his failures, but his failures were dealt with honestly in fear and trembling before a living God. When David re-entered Israel, he was accosted by Shimei, Saul's cousin who insulted him and threw stones. No one would have faulted David if he indulged in a little "damage control", but David had learned in the school of failure, Who he was really accountable to. So he did not shut Shimei up but said openly, "Leave him alone, maybe God has sent him." Wouldn't be amazing if the core group of the powers that be in Baltimore would take that stand towards those crying out. Wouldn't that reveal something about their posture towards the God of all creation. That is not what is taking place as we know, instead of leaving room for God's soveriegnty and dealings, hundreds, thousands are being categorically (pun intended) rejected, spurned, slandered and in some cases threatened. They are on to something in the "corporate" body, and that is why FN is so threatening to them and loathed by them. There is strength in numbers. But ultimately it is the truth that prevails not human strength. What have we heard even there...Promotion comes not from the east or the west, but from God. And that is all evident in the Old Testament, does the accountability standard disappear with the New?
No, no no!
Look at the incidents in the New Testament where leaders confront each other. It's always interesting to me that the one's who had the sternest rebukes were the top guys. Like Peter, when he allowed the fulfillment of the law to infect the grace message. Paul was not permitted to just go from his radical conversion experience into a highly visible church position. It seems God made a provision for the natural suspicions and expectations of the believers in that time period to "give them space" to trust the purpose He had for Paul. In other words, this guy was killing off believers with zeal for God. People were not going to just rally round the flag pole becuase he got knocked on his tush on the road to Damascus. Paul wasn't all puffed up from his encounter with the risen Savior either, he was blinded, reduced, had to be led by men, totally humbled and then set apart literally for what- three years before Barnabas and Mark? went to get him. ( I con't want to stop and look things up,I have to go out). It seems that when an individual is going to assert the call of leadership in their life there are more built in caveats for them in the word to be tested and know the charge is great. Why are we compared to sheep? Why do we have a tendency to just get in line and follow?
Why is Christ called a shepherd?
I think questions like these help us to understand the balance and multi-faceted layers of experiencing faith. But it seems very clear that those who lead must willingly be under great authority themselves. If the enemy lies in wait to decieve, what greater deception could wreak more havoc than to get a charismatic personality into a place where it is accepted that they are above reproach or have somehow "broken the maturity barrier."? Are we not all vessels of clay, sinners, in mortal bodies, subject to temptation? So the leader who never lays claim to foibles and inherant weaknesses is setting themselves up for a fall or to be a destructive force rather that a true edifier, or reinforcer of truth.

I think of the silly rules in the ministry, women in the back seat for example. How would that convert to the prostitute who wept on Jesus feet and touched him as she anointed him for burial with her precious ointment from the shattered alabaster urn.

In my understanding, there is a lack of true faith in many ministries, it is called a work of God, but how quickly it becomes the work of men who thus have to keep it going (for the Kingdom's sake) at all costs, even at the cost of true spirituality. What you manipulate to get you have to manipulate to keep. That is my line to women chasing men, but it applies in church "building" as well.

When Richard Wurmbrand was imprisioned and could not be in the role of a pastor he recounts how he could not pray because of his mind deteriorating, so he said, "It is your church God, watch over it,I am tired. Amen."
How many western Pastors would ever be open to the thought that everything could be taken from them materially and ministerially and they could still have something worth more than everything else put together? I dare say most would totally flip out.
Gold is still more precious than faith if you look at the circus that parades itself as Christianity in America, especially, today.
There is a verse in the NT that goes like this, "Because of the pernicious ways of a few, the way of good is evil spoken of." I think that is appropriate in terms of the ggwo leadership.

Many of us go on and find meaning, but many of us may never enter a fellowship again, may never be able to listen or give ourselves over to anything again because of nagging suspicions and involuntary reactions to "vocabulary". We are willing to wing it on our own rather than believe there is an uncorrupted church out there, possibly where we can relax and grow. Do these leaders fear being a stumbling block to the church as much as they preach to us not to be one to "the body". I personally could not go to any church that just cropped up within a short time under a leader from the ministry. Not now anyway in the frame of mind I am in. I take comfort in knowing that if my heart is wrong, God is greater than my heart and in Paul's prayer for the Epheisans, that they could know the excellence and limitless nature of God's plan for the ages. I do not think on this side of eternity that anyone experiences a complete knowledge of anything but a whisper of something infuses in our being of such a rare quality that we know that whisper exceeds anything this world has to offer and we are never satisfied until we can taste more of the goodness of God.
Love you all,
Patricia

[sojourner (sojourner)]

One more thought about Shimiai, David did not jsut leave the former kings family alone, he gave them a place of honor in his kingdom. That alone speaks volumes.
Hello Jeannie!
Love,
Patricia

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Sojourner
I believe God will heal the heart of distrust. It may take time but the Holy Spirit will continue to speak to the heart until this transformation takes place.
I wonder how many here thought the same thing years ago who now attend a loving body.

I love what you said about David giving a place of honor to the former kings. How in the world could he do that? The only way this would ever be possible is by fellowshipping with God who is love. Christ transformed his heart to love them. Davids response to leave them alone was incredible. He viewed Shimiai as used of God, and David allowed God to cause him to be humble.
David learned something far valuable from that circumstance.

[minutus (minutus)]

He also had Shimei killed.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Shame on him. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[sojourner (sojourner)]

You guys make me laugh and that is an achievement believe me. Keep it up please. Pressing on, you especially make me laugh with your one liners.Too funny.
Patricia
The real issue I was dealing with is how some leaders focus so much on deflecting criticism while at the same time they label and slander anyone who brings up concerns or wrongs they believe have been commited by the same leaders. A lot of double speak.
Ok, back out in the sunshine.

[theboardis1 (theboardis1)]

Hello, this is my first time ever posting. I was wondering how I could get jeannie's e-mail address. I wanted to thank her for that post today about toxic faith. Thank God that the blinders are off and that I can see things more clearly than ever before.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Hello theboardis1, Welcome! My email is:

Jeannieree44@aol.com

[giselle (giselle)]

Does anyone know what happened to the Team that was in Louisiana? Are they back at home base or no longer affiliated?

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Hello theboardis 1, welcome

[mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale)]

Welcome theboardis1.

Offshore..thanks for your post. I totally agree with you. I have been thinking the same thing myself...there does need to be a time of healing and restoration. How can you see clearly without that?..just a thought

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

pr reed was in LA it was posted on another thread that he is now in st pete, as for the brookes and others I don't know.

perhaps you could contact the pinellas park church

[giselle (giselle)]

mercyreigns,

Thanks! I'll try to contact the church in Pinellas Park.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Six months ago, a lot of GGWO supporters on Factnet were defending Carl by saying he is "humble", "broken", and led by the Holy Spirit. They defended him by saying that he had done a bad thing or two, but "God is in control", and only a "bitter" and "hard" heart would ever question anything he's done.

Now, those exact same terms are being used to describe Paul and Steve Stevens. The same logic of not questioning ANYTHING to do with these two men or any other recently disafilliated pastor is in full effect.

Once again, questioning the "pastor" is questioning God.

The people that follow these guys are looking for a personality. They want Carl-lite. They will say they only want to serve God. The problem is they think they have to have a Paul Stevens or a Steve Stevens in order to serve. After all, no one else is "annointed" like they are.

[anova (anova)]

Boss,

Very true.


Anovus

[lee (lee)]

So many, along with giving up or not developing thinking skills have also given in to believing they are nothing. They don't see the beautiful creation God gave in themselves, so they live under condemnation, guilt and shame. The church plays into that so well! It's time to shuck off the old man along with the crap that churches seem to specialze in and start loving what God has made and develop, along with him ,the gift that you are.

Wow, if we all did just that, can you imagine what that would say to the world?

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

Right on Boss.

Sad how so many have been led to believe that they are nothing and are not supposed to be thinking for themselves. Some just want to follow a man and let him think for them because that's just plain easier. Thinking takes some work but it's so very worth it. I don't want a pastor to take me by the hand through life; I have my own God given brain and I'm going to use it. Better to learn from my own mistakes and search the Scriptures for myself than blindly follow a fallable human standing behind a pulpit. That's how to truly grow in Christ!

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
I am nothing.Look and see that it is true in the words of scripture,yet that is not the end of the matter as I will point out.
1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
2 Corinthians 12:11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
In and of <u>myself</u> I am nothing yet there remains hope.For has it not been written,
Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
All that we do in the flesh will burn when it is tried by the fire.All that we do thru Christ will remain as gold that is purified.
Now as to being nothing,that is reason for total dependance upon the Holy one of God,Not any man.Yes?

Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia,
Dave</font>}

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>Ericb;
you're being contentious again.

Child,why do you avoid the Lord's call upon your life?

Why?

Dave</font>}

[offshore (offshore)]

ericb,
This thread was getting boring enough without you posting here.
( And I'm the one who started it!)

[kathleen (kathleen)]

Boss I totally disagree with you on this comment
"Once again, questioning the "pastor" is questioning God."
Sorry I question just about everything.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

Since when is questioning God unacceptable? Seems to me as long as I don't accuse God, I can ask Him anything....even if it's out of a dislike for what's going on. That's ALWAYS been my reason to throw away the idea that questioning a pastor is wrong....God allows me to question Him, petition Him, and He graciously answers, though sometime's I'll admit it's not always the way I'd like Him to. I tend to question just about everything lately...and you know what's funny? There's NO CONDEMNATION!!! LOVE IT!!!

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Kathleen,

I respectfully disagree with your disagreement.

Time after time I have listened to as well as read the words of those who would defend GGWO. Because of Carl's so-called "annointing", virtually anything that came out of his mouth was considered the Word Of God. That was how he controlled so many people for so long. Haven't you read the posts here?

On a personal level, the woman that I became friends with in GGWO told me herself that she was fearful of saying anything against Carl Stevens because SHE FEARED THE WRATH OF GOD. Has not Carl Stevens been referred to MANY times as "God's Man"? That is the result of twisting the "touch not mine annointed" verse.

Regarding concerns over Paul and Steve Stevens (as well as any other recently disafilliated pastors), some people like Pressing_on seem to think that all Paul or Steve has to do is say "I'm sorry" and all is well. Certainly, FORGIVENESS should be extended to these men. But FORGIVENESS is NOT where it ends. I don't think that ANYONE who has just left a cult is qualified to lead ANYONE until it is certain that all cultic tendancies are GONE. How long will this take? It will vary from person to person, but I can assure you that it is not an overnight phenomenon!

How can I question their "calling"? Well, supposedly they had a "calling" when they followed Carl Stevens every whim. I assume that along with a "calling" comes DISCERNMENT and CONCERN FOR THE FLOCK, AHEAD OF THE DESIRES OF THE SELF. I haven't seen anything like that from either of them. I have seen a keen sense of job preservation and perhaps a keen sense of timing to get out before the waste matter has fully impacted the turbine. I see people following a personality.

And I see people defending these guys with "who are we to question God?" I'm not questioning God, I'm questioning two MEN who were a huge part of a cult. Two men who went along with the abuse and pastor worship. Two men who stood by and did NOTHING! Yet the defense is "who are we to question God?" Please re-read pressing_on's posts.

Can they be forgiven? Of course! Should they be leading a church? Of course NOT!

You know, I have a "calling" to perform heart surgery. I have always been a "humble" and "broken" medical enthusiast. I used to be in a cult led by a witchdoctor, but yesterday I figured out that being a witchdoctor is bad. I have read a lot of medical texts. How dare ANYONE question my ability to perform surgery!

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Boss

You allowed yourself to be apart of GGWO.
The decision was yours, but now you have come out. You are going on.
But I think you need to step down, I don't think you are qualified to share Christ with others or your view of Christ. After all you have to be cleansed of your indoctrination, correct.

This is a joke but think about it.

In Him Pressing_on

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Pressing_on, I am NOT sharing my views on Christ. I am a Christian, but I am leaving it at that. By GGWO standards, I am a heathen, because I only go to church one day a week (if that), don't go on "blitzes", and I listen to (and PLAY) rock music. I don't even pretend to know enough about Christ beyond what I read in my Bible and how He has moved in my life. Beyond that, I have no desire to tell others what they should believe about Jesus Christ.

MEN and CULTS are a different matter.

I never went to GGWO. Thank Merciful God for that!

Sometimes, I can see when things are messed up. Not every time, but some times. GGWO is definitely one of those times. How many affairs does your pastor have to have before he's unfit to pastor, at least for "a season"? How many people have to be marked? How many lies like Carl at the Bema? How many people have to get chewed up and spit out because they don't serve the MACHINE enough hours in a week? How many kids have to be neglected by parents that are so concerned about getting their head up Carl's pompous rear end?

I didn't have to be in a cult to see how messed up it is.

I have certainly got my head up ass on some issues. This isn't one of them.

Until proven otherwise, it's still a cult to me. The Stevens boys don't even want to talk about their beliefs, unless you go to their church. I think they're a danger to the public. That's my opinion.

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

boss-you're a cool cat....even if your approach is harsh sometimes. I think there is defintely a time for that sort of thing just as there is a time to be gentle. I agree with what you said/say. Not only that, but your taste in music ROCKS! At least what you've posted on here anyways...I myself...am a tatooed, hippie, heavy metal rocker babe wanna-be :-) and a DARN good mommy!!! I don't attend 'church' regularly but when I'm with friends or fellow believers, the fellowship is ALWAYS sweet...even if we don't agree...

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

press,

I know you are joking, so here is the puchline..
That is like comparing apples to oranges. A person’s witness to people is not even in the same ball park as being a pastor to people. I personally think that some, not all , but some of these men should have taken some time off. Their participation in the errors of GGWO, should have dictated tey enter a proper discipline and restoration process. That’s just me and why I am not in their churches. However, I know that many people asked these men to pastor them. If these men feel like God wants them to pastor and they have people begging them to be their leader, than who can stop it?

As I said in a post long buried, the call of God is a very subjective thing. I have heard people say that God told them that a certain person would mary them and it never happened. I have heard people say that God told them to do all kinds of crazy things. Can you tell them, "No He didn't!" You can only point them to filter their perceived calling from God through the WORD.

I think that the healthiest thing is to break the “co-dependent” spirit that pervaded GG churches. Stand on your own feet with God, in ANOTHER assembly, when your led to one, and see how God loves and works through His other children.

[dontchugthekoolaid (dontchugthekoolaid)]

Boss I understand your points on this issue of "Stevens Sons". I don't know for a fact but I would think they would have known about all the affairs of their Father, along with the drinking, and use of prescription drugs. And not to mention marrying Barbara Baum knowing about her habit of prescription drug use! That doesn't sit well with me at all. How could either one of them stand by their Father while he preached against everything that he was doing?????????? This is so mental!!!! That destroys the issue of trust.

[ariel (ariel)]

Steve knew about his dads 'indiscretions'.
Paul did too.
While both may have been 'puzzled by it all', they still had a God given mind that they refused to use and make hard choices like big brother Bruce did. Bruce faced off with Dad and left.
As dad (CHS) did, Steve and Paul BOTH cast aspersions on Bruce for his 'independent spirit', for being 'way off', 'out there'.
Steve and Paul benefited from Bruces absence, and had only each other to compete with to be dads favorite. It seemed to be more of a priority for Paul.
With all the perks and benefits Steve and Paul enjoyed it was hard to refuse without the help of a little self delusion along with dads(chs) twisted way of excusing himself.
Steve must have wrestled with his doubts a bit harder than Paul, because Steve left GGWO from about 1988 to 1988. 10 years !. About the time mid life crisis hit, the promise of goods things from dad (CHS) lured Steve back into 'ministry'.
Both Steve and Paul did not use their backbone like Bruce did.
Steve and Paul always seemed to consider things from the viewpoint of 'whats in it for me?'
On the contrary...
Bruce's observations apparently were 'something is seriously wrong here and I want to know why"
If this were a story from the pages about King Solomon, I would picture him pointing to Bruce as being the Stevens who should have been the Pastor.
The one who did not lust after the position enough to sell his soul as did CHS, Steve and Paul.

[offshore (offshore)]

Yes, Bruce Stevens is one of the most Godly men I have ever known. He is kind, compassionate, generous and is a wonderful father, husband to Maila, and true friend to us all. He wouldn't think twice about confronting his father with the truth.
If anyone in that family should be a pastor, it should be Bruce. But he is content serving breakfast in his shop and ministering to everyone who walks in the door, with who he is. He's just one great guy who knows how to be real and really love.

[nomansman (nomansman)]

i've been readings the treads for a while now but this is my first post

i have been praying for what is currently happening in GGWO for over 20 years now. i still have close family in baltimore but praise god some have finally seen the light and left pray for the rest of my family that they would not fall deeper into traps

i was part of a TBS church which de-affiliated the reasons at that time where the issues of delegated authority and principle of anointing and lack of accountability

i think there is an important key here for pastors who have "seen the light" and seperated from GGWO. they have taken the first step but many of them that had leadership positions will have been unduly influenced during their time of leadership because human nature is to aspire to the one that you admire so. so the tendencies of control and heavy sheperding will have been evident in many GGWO affiliated churches even if in reduced form.

Repentance Repentance Repentance has to be the next step for many leaders otherwise they will run the risk of reproducing smaller versions of baltimore without realising it the Weed has to be pulled out entirely else it will continure to grow and never fully be dealt with. Repentance is the key that breaks the mould so it cannot be used again

i feel it would be wise for many ex-pastors to take time out. they must re-evaluate their belief systems. i think many will be surprised with how many untruths they have to relearn all over again.

the emphesis of being a pastor was so distorted at GGWO that many should even be evaluating if that is what they are. lets be honest "a pastor" is not a title it is a gift like being a prophet or evangelist. in other words you are a pastor if you are pastoring others. there are many 'pastors' who should actually be called evangelists or teachers because they have no pastoral abilities dispite carrying the title

anyway back to my ex church. even though we de-affiliated there was never any repentance not for years and the church struggled on with many of the same issues for years because the ROOT OF PRIDE was not dealt with. in the end many fell away and the church now continues in some small excentric way.

pray that leaders have the courage to de-affiliate fully and walk in repentance and even step down for a time to re-evaluate their own calling if neccacary.

does anyone know how many are actually left in baltimore ? how many other churches remain loyal?

i am very pleased that on the whole these threads are so positive and christ centred it is good to see in such a public domain

please if you can pray for the rest of my family who stubornly are holding on pray that the bonds will be broken and the veil lifted

many thanks

(Message edited by nomansman on June 08, 2005)

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Offshore, is Bruce going to be with us August 6th? I'd really like to see him, and Ed too, if possible.

[mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale)]

Hi nomansman....welcome

[dontchugthekoolaid (dontchugthekoolaid)]

Wow Ariel and Offshore, that puts the pieces to the puzzle together for me! And it really ticks me off. That place is the biggest stinking lie! I know I will be warning some of my family members that are still invoved with some of the Steven's family.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Dear Normansman,

Thank you for your excellent post. I will be praying for your family.

Interesting you would ask about how many have actually left. Out of curiosity I sat down with my old church directory and checked off the names of those I knew had left. This is the same list we used to send the postcards to alert the congregation of FACTNet.org. Many of the names I did not know, so I have no idea if they still attend or not. But out of names I knew, I counted 400 names of adults who have left the church in the past year and half. This does not count the children, just the adults. This does not include the many churches who have disaffiliated around the country and the world. But tonight John Love is up on stage saying "all is fine in GGWO and it is Satan saying "people are leaving in droves" I would say 400 people is a drove...

Welcome to FN, Normansman!

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Love you Boss Man...so glad to see you posting...you ROCK.

[ariel (ariel)]

F.Y.I.
http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

nomansman,

Excellent post and welcome to FN, I look forward to more of your posts.
Your point on repentance is right on. These pastors that are leaving need to make a radical change of mind to have this new affiliation be different. Some have done it I know, others not sure. I wouldn't attend any of these churches without asking SPECIFIC questions to these men, and if they have repented for their involvment, and how they repented. You see if someone is trully sorry there will not be limitations on their repentace, like when and where, and how much. If a man's heart is to serve God and serve people, he'll do what ever it takes. If that means dealing with these issues and repenting to people for the next 5 years, then thats what it takes. After all 20+ years of error isn't corrected by a single repentant letter or a conversation with a few people. The errors where enforced in a long process, so will be the undoing of the errors.

[nomansman (nomansman)]

ericlaw
"If a man's heart is to serve God and serve people, he'll do what ever it takes"

absolutely right you are
even at times repenting for things that you are not even sure need repenting off is wise

repentance is not a sentence or a phrase or an apology it is "a conscious decision to turn around and go in the opposite direction"
and that can take time

repentance can be stepping down from a position of leadership or a calling in order that your true motivation is clearer even to yourself somtimes pride means we are very good at deceiving ourselves

and when the season of repentance is over. if your initial calling was from god (particularly if you thought you were called to being a pastor)

then God will find a way of getting you back into your calling and doors will open up for you
and boy the flood gates of heaven will pour down on your ministry.

to whom much is given much is required
i would not want to be in their shoes if i stood before the father and had not repented.

God knows our earthly nature is geared around self-preservation and self promotion and self adoration. thus being a humble leader who does not lead because he gets a kick out of it but to serve god and his people is very hard indeed and most of us might not be capable of it.

the other thing i wanted to say was for those of you who have "come out" ( new meaning of the phrase ) know this "god can redeem the years the kanker worm has eaten" (spelling ?)

even through this you will grow in christ it is not a step back but forward you will be much wiser and your discernment will multiply manifold
as long as you can prevent suspicion and mistrust by guarding your hearts against bitterness which is also a sin like "control" is

finally and then i shut up

i am really not sure about this site that seems to exist now

liquidwavesdotblogspotdotcom

not sure where it came from or who set it up but i am sure you must agree that this is actually counter productive?

the last thing we need is to add fuel to the fire for current members as evidence for them that all we do is slander and make personally attacks on CHS.

i understand the new found freedom ex members are finding now to critise and make fun of former leaders but is God glorified in it?

when you get to heaven god won't say to you "there.. there.. sorry about your hardships at GGWO, come on in" he is more likely to rebuke us for being blind and Not examining the scriptures to see if things were so.

we are accountable for our actions they are accountable for theirs. hope i'm not offending anyone with that.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

noman,

Well said, we can do the right thing and then let God do the rest.

As for the "questionable humor", please keep this in perspective, not everyone here has the same convictions or standards. This is the internet. This is a TRUE Open Forum. Anyone from anywhere can post what ever they want, whether I like it or not. I can't legislate to how people should conduct their communication anymore than they can to me. I can only take what I want and leave the rest. Some of the people here have been out for 20 years, they have had their freedom for some time. So, just understand that people will not be controlled into how to express, we can only control in what we partake.

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

Sometimes people need to call CHS, Schaller, Love and others a few things to drive a point home. It doesn't mean that we hate them (CHS) or just want to speak evil of them. It means that we want to expose them for the harmful people that they are and that they should be avoided like the plague. Even Jesus Himself called people dogs, and sons of the devil in His day. So lets not be too quick to jump on those who call CHS a few unflattering names. After all the spiritual and financial raping of people CHS did to so many for decades some bashing of him is very well justified. If he doesn't want people calling him a jerk or something stronger, then all he has to do is stop being one!! Same goes for Schaller, Love and the rest of the leadership. Heck, if calling CHS or Schaller a jerk on FACTNET while they still act like jerks would keep just one person who reads FACTNET posts from attending GGWO and getting snared by it, its all worth it!!!! I do love CHS and company as human beings like anyone else and do not wish to speak openly evil of them but exposing them with some strongly worded remarks I will do in order to keep some from attending GGWO. Bashing GGWO is nothing new for me. I've seen too many hurting, alienated, rejected, and abused people because of GGWO and will not stay silent. I simply hope that the GGWO will repent, and repair the lives of those they slandered, and abused all these years. If they would truly do that without cheap insincere lip service, I'd support them. But as long as they want to be a dangerous cult that hurts and exploits people they must be exposed and bashed. Too many peoples lives are at stake here!!

[offshore (offshore)]

nomansman,
I love your post about the John Eldridge book. I have seen many men who have been awakened in their true self to be loving, gentle and true image bearers of God.

I wanted to express though, how we dealt with our multitudes of complex feelings, when we left TBS/GGWO.
My husband and I were so confused, greiving the loss of all our friends, devastated and slimed all at the same time.
With our particular sense of humor, we just had to be a little wacky and laugh. We found laughter to be very releasing and it escalated…..a lot. We laughed from the depths of our beings!

We didn’t try to spiritualize what had happened to us, we just needed to be really free.
One night, we cut out all the pictures in our wedding album of Stevens and glued his head onto pictures of the 3 stooges and onto pictures in magazine. Then we xeroxed them off and made our own little booklet called, The Bible Speaks goes on Record. The cover had a picture of Steven's head sitting on a CD.

We still have this and pull it out every so often to laugh again, or to show old friends (many have gotten “out” very recently) . It’s still funny, even 20 years later.
Who ever the creators of the “liquid waves” are, their doing the same thing we did, only it’s the 2005 version.

For us, we had to reckon that God could take this kind of humor. It was good for us, and it allowed us to come out as survivors. As Ericlaw said, we can only control in what we partake.

I think the guys on this site, are young. They could have been in the GGWO for many years, or grown up in it. Sometimes, the humor is a little rough around the edges, but if for no other reason, it serves to help them and we have howled with laughter.
It’s a spoof on Stevens, the great controller. It’s a “mockumentary” of the ridiculous and bizarre.

So glad you are here nomansman. Welcome!

(Message edited by offshore on June 10, 2005)

[minutus (minutus)]

"Mockumentary" - That's a very nice way to put it. I'd love to see the Stooges shots http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif. Mocking a man is way less of a problem than making him into a god.

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Jesus said to Peter;Get thee behind me satan.
Yes?

Dave</font>}

[offshore (offshore)]

Dave, what are YOU saying?

[anova (anova)]

I think Dave was referring to the photo of Tom Schaller "getting behind" Junior.


anovus

[nomansman (nomansman)]

I do agree of course with all of you ( i knew i was being controversial. haha..)

the ability to 'take the rise' out of a leader that you have been 'double honouring' for so many years shows the release and the healing you are experiencing

i was just concerned for those 'on the inside' ( may family in particular) and how it would look through their eyes. i really pray they read fact net and not be able to find anything that would feed their desperation to discredit or dismiss those who have left.

actually factnet really lives up to its name there is more pure spirit filled godly truth being 'spoken' here then in 10 years of gggwo sermons

[whitehorses (whitehorses)]

i really dont know what your concern is noman, of your family looking at this site. reading and seeing ALL of what Gods people have written here is a testament to who we all are in Christ. let God be the one to lead them to the truth about what they are involved in. why hide peoples personalities, senses of humor, and comments? it is refreshing to most liberating... to say the least, to know you can come out of a place that is stifling, and express what you feel how you want to express it without feeling like you are going to get cancer of the tongue... er... fingers...
ket God be God and liberate people and dont be so concerned about how those people are going to "take" things.
you would be surprised how some of the off the wall things that are said in this forum actually open peoples eyes.

[nomansman (nomansman)]

whithorses
that is why i said

"actually factnet really lives up to its name there is more pure spirit filled godly truth being 'spoken' here then in 10 years of gggwo sermons"

GOD IS God factnet has already been used by Him to release more people then any of us could have dreamt

anyway my initial comment was not about factnet but "another" site

[whitehorses (whitehorses)]

oh ok noman so.. disregard what i said then. oops and sorryhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

[lana (lana)]

Its hard to find words to fit our varied experiences. We are all different, but seeking. Every person is so important to us as we grope along. Its exciting to feel this oneness. We felt alone for so long.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

I agree with you 100% Lana. Who is the author of alienation and lonliness? Not the Spirit! We don't need to find the words, just the courage to grow and move on and I think the words will find us. You are so right,too, when you say, "Every person is so important to us as we grope along."
You don't need fancy words or a college education to share profound truth, in fact, those things as good as they are can erect obstacles instead of bridges. It is impossible to feel oneness when you are in bondage to someone, or to something like fear or self-loathing. We are all unique and yet the same. Thanks for your short but very meaningful post.
Love,
Patricia

[lana (lana)]

Patrica, Thank you so much.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Thank you! This dialogue is like a dance. It takes two to tango! Have a great day.

[offshore (offshore)]

I think it's OK to be at any point, in each person's process of exit, physically, emtionally and spiritaully.

I still have many areas to grow in. For me, if one speaks with honesty and from the heart, I love to converse. However, that only happens if the person sharing feels SAFE enough to be that vulnerable. With all that we have come out of, vulnerability is not going to be much of a drawing card...it's going to scare the **** out of people.

Sometimes, this trust deficit can take so long to spring to life again. I have known many, many people who's spiritual lives have been destroyed by the wrongful, selfserving actions of Carl Steven's. I doesn't matter if they never walk into a church again, they just can't do "The God Thing". I can't really blame them.

[offshore (offshore)]

Just want to let you know this.
When you try to post and it won't, and says error...keep doing it over and over until it takes. We have had to do this for about 4 weeks now.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Offshore,
Just before I read your post(1:33) above two words were on my mind- trust and vulnerability.
The idea of having a trust deficit is so real to me. You touch upon so many real life matters in your post that I can only think it is the result of real life experience...your words have substance and help many of us.

I love candor, overly polite people make me nervous. As if they are assuming I cannot handle what they really are thinking!

My whole life I "behaved" to fit in and guess what, I never fit anywhere, by hiding my true feelings I got further and further into isolation and other problems. It has almost killed me, the weight of pretending and putting myself down by living in comparisions.

The only way to truely fit in anywhere I believe is to find the courage to be yourself and nothing else. Don't dress it up, don't dress it down. Why do we hide and pretend so much?

Any thoughts on that Offshore?

How many of us are willing to refuse to do anything out of a sense of obligation or fear and ONLY do those things that come from a place deep inside of us, our true selves? Totally relaxed.

Are we afraid of rejection? Looking wierd? Aren't we tired of scripting our lives out of caution?
Is God drawing some line we might cross and find ourselves outside of His reach?
What do we think?

Why are we hiding when He has redeemed us totally at His expense?

The garden is ours again and even better than before the fall because we can be known and loved unconditionally anyway.

Each moment is new and yet we can be so predictable, unspontaneous and scripted.
Do the lilies of the field do that?
We all know the answer to that- Of course not.
Jesus told us, "Consider the lilies..."
What was He trying to get us to consider?
Any comments out there in Factland?

I would hate to see this board become a place of just serious theoligical discussions or quotes.

The valuable essence here is the voice of each individual person.

One soul, we are told, is worth more than the whole world.

Either that is true or it is not true.

It is true.

To me it means there is no such thing as a life without significance, no accidental encounters.

No one should be disregarded. As much as I am tempted to knock myself, I am included in the scheme of things. My soul is worth more than all the world. Feels uncomfortable to claim that-because I don't live as if it is true. I neglect my soul every single day, and my own contradictions intimidate me into a sense of unworthiness.
The greatest trips are the ones we lay on ourselves don't you think. So I love and learn from the people who just spill the beans unedited.
They are my best counselors, I will never censor anyone on this site. Troll or not whatever that means. That trolls soul is worth more than all the world.

There are "No Little People"as Francis Shaeffer wrote.

How can we bear one anothers burdens if there is a limit as to what we can pour out.

It is frightening to be vulnerable.

You may get crucified.

But it is also a place of ultimate freedom.

We can be free to yell at someone when we disagree, free to lambaste those who have hurt us
but there is a better freedom that incorporates all of our experiences, good and bad into the classroom of God, and allow it to help us grow.
I know pseudo humility is a trap.

I think God's heart aches every time one of his kids condemns themselves. Don't they know, maybe He thinks, Don't they know my love is unshakeable and that is why I am letting everything, EVERYTHING else be shaken.

Look at what we can have the thrill of discovering.

It's an I know that I know that I know He loves me kind of discovery. And it can never be taken away. It's not a cheap little gift-we can only appreciate it I think as long as we are giving it away to others.

With His love as a constant in our lives that nothing can remove, ultimately we can see that all our experiences, sucesses, disappointments, betrayals, failures, everything, can and will serve our good.

Does this make sense?

I think it does.

Everone is just where they are and that is the way it is.
Have to go, my fasting from FACTNet has been interrupted.

That's fine. I can't help but dance when you sing.
Patricia

[lana (lana)]

The "Body Of Christ" includes every born again Christion in the world. Each of us has a body. Our body has many parts and works together in harmony. When one part gets sick, the whole body suffers. Its the same with the Body of Christ. As we heal, it affects the whole body. That is what is happening here. Its a universal healing beyond our understanding.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Lana you have the simplest way of presenting truths. You're right again and this is not vain flattery. It is a universal healing beyond understanding- in fact my so called "uderstanding of things" is usually the biggest obstacle I have to overcome. You are tapped into some powerful reality friend, keep posting.

[itstimetomoveon (itstimetomoveon)]

Patricia
"Are we afraid of rejection? Looking wierd? Aren't we tired of scripting our lives out of caution?"
Oh God only knows.....

[lana (lana)]

Sojourner, It is so important to wait on God when I write. "My heart is the pen of a ready writer". Too many precious people are reading Factnet, for me to do otherwise. I am so grateful to hear everyone.