Another leaves and getbs kicked in the butt on the way out

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Hi fellow brothers and sisters of the WAY.

I have this friends permission to say the things I am about to say. Maybe we can use this thread for info on the latest ones to head out the door. My very very good friend is Pst Art Atkins. You might know him, short black guy that worked for security, and has one of the most amazing laughs I've ever heard.Arthur and myself co-labored at the Salvation Army for about, well I was there for two years almost before Arthur came aboard.We did the Grace Overcomers meetings there and sometimes in the youth hut.Another of the many reasons I left GG was because of what I felt as predjustice against the Black man. Arthur came down from New York a little rough around the edges, but him and I started hitting it off great and it wasn't long before we became closest of friends. One time I had spent a year getting together the paperwork to open a home for women coming out of prostitution and drug addiction. Mostly dancers and street walkers. Finally when i did everything that the powers that be ask me to do when it came time to fork out the loot, because you can't treat women like the men in the Grace Home.The women would have to stay in house for at least 6 mos before even attempting to get a job, but only after an evaluation.I went to my covering in the G.O. ministry and then I was sent to this pastor and that Pastor, and by the time I had ran through a good part of 13 Pastors I ended up in front of Pst Sciabelli. He informed me that I needed to try and get grants from the government, (yea right, so they could run the Home) no way. It was one of the biggest run arounds I ever went through. At around this same time Arthur is teaching Bible Studies, going to the hospital to bring ABD lessons to someone hospitalized and remember this; both of us were told that if we did the work of a Pastor and got just a little Bible College under our belts we would have no problem being ordained.Let me say this between family interventions , counseling, hospice ministry, soul-winning, how much more did we have to do. Now catch this Pastor Art is standing up in the offices where Pastor and Sciabelli, and at that time and the topic came up about Arthur maybe needing to start a Bible study in i think Aberdeen or some way out place. Then Arthur said, I'm called to go to New York and teach there, when Pastor Sciabelli turns to him and says " I couldn't even use you in Africa without at least two years Bible College" Arthur told him he didn't want to go to Africa anyway, that is not where God had called him. When Art told me this I thought, what an arrogant jerk, he wouldn't be using Art anyway, the Lord would. Now Art says that Pst..... ask him to open up one night with a 10 intro, but all the black guys have already heard that " A black man can't go anywhere in this ministry" I was there the night that Art gave his intro. He kept it under 10 minutes, respecting the pulpit, because he was told if he went over, don't look forward to getting behind that pulpit for many years to come. That is one thing CS couldn't stand was for someone to go over their allotted time. Art went 8 mins and a few seconds, the message was one of the most Spirit filled intro's that I had heard in a long, long time. He even got a standing ovation, but yet it has been over 3 yrs and to this day has yet been asked to return. CS got his token Black guy to do what he needed and now time to move on. Then as Art is getting ready to move to New York he gets a meating with Tom Schaller and ask Tom if he can get his Ordination papers so that he might have them to begin a work in NY. He has a Bible Study up there that has requested that he start a church. Again words of dung from GG leadership. Tom Schaller told him that he wasn't qualified enough to Pastor a church, when I heard that I wanted to know who qualified him, especially for an honorary Doctorate. This is like I said another reason that I left GG, among the others reasons which I will tell in my story one day.A black man is just a token at GG. Or as Cs used to say "Sure are a lot of Canadians here tonight"
Does anyone know who that black gentleman was who used to sit on the stage for a long time and then dissapeared, then a couple of years later showed back up, only to leave after a few short months. He was very tall and thin with graying hair.Well I'm going to go to see if anyone agree's with me that as well put by Rodney Dangerfield, for the black man at GG " I get no respect"

(Message edited by Gone to PA on June 15, 2005)

[stephen (stephen)]

That "black gentleman who used to sit on the stage for a long time and then dissapeared, then a couple of years later showed back up, only to leave after a few short months." Very tall and thin with graying hair" happens to be the hubby of Melba, who was adorable and wonderfully eccentric. You're right black men had NO opportunities in GGWO, I remember during Black History month they had Pastor's Shallow and ****belly "guest preach" Sheesh, who wanted to hear a bunch of egotistical white boys say their same old boring pastor worship anyway?

[stephen (stephen)]

Is Pastor Ed Wigeon still at GGWO? I hope not, he was such a cool brother! How about Dr. Wanda Simmons-Clemmons? That sugar mama's smokey style of singing was righteous! You'd think a woman of her intellect would get the clue about the bull**** that's going on in the "house." I used to love to hear Miss Flora go off in the Holy Ghost during service! She could have cared less what any of those stiff old pastors thought about her business!

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Gone,

You may be referring to Pastor Monroe. or maybe Pastor Law. I have heard it over and over again, Black men have no chance, I believe it 100%. You get a black man to read the scriptures and think that is diversity. Give me a break. GGWO is like a crappy onion, layer after layer of dung gets revealed.

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

I was thinking of Tom Fields. And everything written is right on the money. I even overheard Stevens say one night we need more black men up on stage because Baltimore is 90 something percent black. I was stunned. I heard this with my own ears.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Where is Pastor Law. I always liked that guy, he had the nicest family, and he really worked his heart out for those in prison. Anyone know what he is doing?
Patricia
If you are reading FN- Greetings

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Yes that's right. I believe he is asking about pr law.

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Hey, hey, hey,
I believe that man was Melba's hubby.I'm not sure, but this guy was very tall, not Past Fields tall,taller than that and he was the nicest very soft spoken man. I know Pst Monroe personally and still have contact with him, it wasn't him. Nor was it Ed Widgeon thou he was a great guy also. The last thing i heard from him was an intro I call "Sweet Hour of Prayer" As far as Flo, I loved how she used to praise the Lord when she was all filled with the Spirit and didn't give a hoot who liked it or not.The best song in my humble opinion she sang was when her and my friend Jackie V sang, who is now Jackie Potechkni, (think that's right spelling) " God Is" that song used to tear the roof off the house, nothing like a white girl with some soul. Also I knew Pastor Law who was Head Chaplin in Jessup for the lifers, and it wasn't him. There ia a very large predominatley black church very close to GG, think it's Mt Pleasant, and I heard some of the black men that were in GG headed over that way. Maybe this doesn't belong on this thread but, check out ptmin.org, it ask the question of " Will The Emerging Church Ever Emerge" by author Frank Viola. Especially read the article on Where does the Pastor come from? It will show you a great deal if you are open minded. It really goes into the Clergy/laity set-up in our modern day church and shows you what it was meant to be back in the NT time. Anyone who reads this please let me know what you think. I know you are checking it out Misil as we talked today, call me after and let me know what you think.

Jesus bless one and all
Gone

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Jackie just sang a couple weeks ago on a Sunday morning. I miss her. Hope she is doing well. I miss that whole family. They took care of my son when I was in the hospital in 92 for 3 months. Actually I think Jorgie is part V hahaha He sure acts like it.. lol

Nancy Curra (o by the way Jorge and Lori are both living with me for anyone wondering what happened to them) We are all in florida God willing for good. (and it is not Egypt)

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Gone I remember the man you are speaking of. Wish I knew his name.

[mikko (mikko)]

thats one of the main reasons i left ggwo newark i noticed there was no respect for black people and were often mocked from the pulpit ...they would say ''hallelujah'' in funny manner imitating black preachers..the sad thing is the congregation thought this was funny ....i did not...that there told me they were maryland confederates that hate other people groups ,they didnt think much of blacks asians spanish or city whites....

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Hello all,

I remember one year for the Play they took a song by an artist named Kurt Franklin who has reached so many of the young black crowd,with his hard bass beats in his music. He was reaching that crowd with their pants hanging off their butts and was giving them a positive message of our Savior. I think unless you have examined someone's ministry you have no right to say a thing about it, let alone all the inner city folks we were trying to reach by the play. I know, I was the Grim Reaper one year and my wife was a pregnant angel(not to Biblical), but after the play many of the people that I witnessed to were black. I always wondered what they thought of us, as we knocked one of the worlds premeire Black Artist, and poked fun at his music, trying to make it appear demonic.

Another of the many reasons why I'm
Gone to PA

[giselle (giselle)]

mikko,

That sounds awful. That is a sad thing to experience in a church. We have friends in Baltimore that are minorities and they do not see this as an issue there.

[lee (lee)]

gone to Pa,
The Melba you are speaking of, did she once reside in Boston? I'm wondering if she is the same Melba that was once in our church. She was a wonderful lady. Is she still in Balt?

[heather (heather)]

Gone... Thank you for starting this thread. I had to laugh my ass off the day Wisot and Majors were so hell bent on shutting me up that they told one of the parents pulling thier kids from the school that I was a bona-fide Klan member. At first I wanted to rip off his head and spit down his neck, but then I laughed my butt off, you see, my kids are mixed, thier father is Puerto-rican. I guess I belong to that "new" section that accepts race mixing lmaooo. It is a known fact that the "black men" were referred to as"The Canadians" right in front of them. There is a serious issue with the treatment of people of color, spanish, orientals, and other not upper crust white folk. "token black man" is the perfect phrase for GGWO. I know I would rather listen to Pastor Ron preach any day.

[mikko (mikko)]

yes ,amen i really love ps. Ron cause i see his good fruit , i do pray for us all to seek more of the Lord i pray for that all churches ministries and christians be the answer to Jesus's prayer that we all be one in him..God bless

[jokesonyou (jokesonyou)]

I guess Pastor Wright (Bible College) and Pastor Cooper (Head of outreach) are just window dressing.
Talk about peeling off the layers!! Get a mirror folks.

[giselle (giselle)]

Pastor Cooper! One of the most honorable, sincere, and down to earth men of God I've ever met! Even being the head of outreach, he is just the same as he was when I first met him many years ago. He has never changed!

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

hey joke
Is still the head of the college. My step daughter is half Puerto-Rican, so i have looked in the mirror. Two black guys in a city of millions does not a ministry make. You need to talk to some of the brothers who left and why they left, which apparently you didn't. Also the gentleman I was asking about was sent to me by Pst Wells, Two very beautiful Christians. Joke maybe you don't have the repore to talk to our brothers and sisters in Christ about how they really feel about their treatment at GG, but I have talked to quite a few, not that there are hundreds to talk to, and they are the ones who voluteered their thoughts to me. I give these same people of color enough credit to be able to think on their own, and I will not whiye wash their precious opinions because a couple of black men have been allowed to do somethings at GG. Being uninformed might just mean that the jokes on you! Let me ask you, how many black brothers and sisters have you been in a ministry with, working side by side. I can say a few, and why don't you go talk to Pst Art about his experience for Black History Month, if you can find him since he left also.

(Message edited by Gone to PA on June 15, 2005)

[stephen (stephen)]

<font size="-2">Pastor Cooper! One of the most honorable, sincere, and down to earth men of God I've ever met! Even being the head of outreach, he is just the same as he was when I first met him many years ago. He has never changed!</font>

NOT MY EXPERIENCE, THAT ******* WAS SO RUDE TO ME WHEN I RAN INTO HIM AROUND CHARM CITY ONCE! I SAID, "HEY" AND HIS SNEERING RESPONSE WAS, "YOU TALKING TO ME?"

WHAT A JERK! HE'S A WHITE WANNA BE! WE BLACK FOLKS CALL UM "WHIGGERS"

[giselle (giselle)]

We are minorities but have never experienced this at our church or when we were visiting many times at home base. Could it be coz we weren't always @ home base but rather a branch ministry? That never much mattered to us anyway as we do all as unto the Lord. Ultimately it is the Lord that will judge the hearts of everyone.

(Message edited by giselle on June 13, 2005)

[misil (misil)]

is it at least possible that some black people, just will not let the black thing go.
do not get me wrong i respect and am still close with alot of black people(i dont even like saying black people).but, alot(not all) of black people put the black white issue even ahead of Christ.this its not fair thing is what is stopping alot from advancing in life and in the church. let me ask you somthing.do you not think that white people can see when that is taking place?
i can tell you it is not taking place with pst eugene.it is not taking place with julian.but i do know some that it is taking place with as well and i will not mention thier names. i hate the prejudice from both whites and blacks, it sickens me. but i dont remember a white pastor in any church ive been to saying lets not give the n$@@&amp;r a thing.i do however remember alot of black people saying,i didnt get that or to do that because im black.the fact that they are voicing it says its there.
let me say here it is more justified to say that black people have alot more reason to feel they are being overlooked because of the past.
but let me say that everyone is not against black people.and i for one have no prejudice that is why i am not afraid to talk about it.

and dont post messages about me being prejudice either because i wont responed to that kind of accusation.

[giselle (giselle)]

Stephen,

I'm sorry you have had such an experience with P. Cooper. I cannot say that at all. He has always been sincere and respectful, not just to me but to many who know him well. You sound angry and I do not believe the Lord would now want that. We have to forgive them who [may] offend us and move on. I refuse to participate in name calling and slandering the bretheren, no matter who they are. I will pray for them and would hope others will, too. It's almost scary at times to post something positive about someone/something when some responses come as an attack, filled with hostility and anger.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Joke,

Pr. Wright is one of the dearest people to me. That man was a true minister of grace. He always took time to stop and give me a hug. Not a cheesy, get out of the way embrace, but real heart felt love of Christ. He is a prime example. How long was he the president before being replace? Any other position they can give him would be a demotion. That shows you the value for a black man at the plaza.
Pr. Cooper was always decent to me. I know others have had real issues with him, but he was always kind and edifying. To someone’s point, 2 black men don't make a diverse ministry. These guys are great, but still just window dressing for GGWO.

Keep peeling, you'll get there. You may have to shed some tears though.

[jayso (jayso)]

I remember P. Bruce Wright from the early Lenox days. I never saw him as being held back or discriminated against. He pastored a beautiful group of people in Totowa, NJ for quite a while. I always thought of him as being warm, intelligent, articulate and confident. I knew him to be a man of integrity and wisdom. He was uniquely different from most TBS pastors.

His being "black" was only the color of his skin. I don't believe it hindered him in ministry. I had a lot of fellowship with Bruce in New Jersey and would attend his meetings when visiting my parents in NYC. At first, I thought Bruce might be Canadian because of his accent. I found out he is originally from Boston; which accent sounds a little "canadian" to me. If he is still in leadership at GGWO, it can only lend credibility to GG's image as being a church and not a cult. I hope he hasn't compromised with cultish doctrines. I knew him to be a "critical thinker". IMO, he is far more gifted intellectually than CHS or any of the other dressed up hay seeds that called themselves "pastor" in Lenox.

Bruce Wright and Dave Moore were two TBS affiliate pastors who treated me as a brother in Christ, even after they knew I "disaffiliated". I have fond memories of both these guys. I miss their fellowship. It is important we don't paint all of GG with a broad brush, when people like BW and DM are still part of it (providing they haven't compromised their integrity).

If anyone from GG reads this, please send my regards to my 2 good pastor friends from the past. -Jay Stern

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
I remember pastor Dorcie<--spelling?from Dorchester Mass.I was privilaged to attend his church once and remember him speaking in Framingham.He has a heart after God for sure.
That could be why he stopped coming after a while.He may have seen some troubling things and decided not to be associated with them.
That is only speculation on my part.

Dave</font>}

[jokesonyou (jokesonyou)]

Gone to pa pa. I see many black, brown and beige and chinese and latin faces at ggwo. I guess everything is a token to you. The church leadership must spend all their time with gathering tokens because there are a whole lot of AA folks in GG. There was a group of African pastors touring the New England and New York churches for the last two weeks. Pastor Moses from Brooklyn spoke at the Grace Hour banquet. More window dressing for everybody I suppose. Last I knew God was not impressed or concerned with the color of our skin nor the country of our origin. We have ordained as a ministry over two hundred African Pastors. I guess that does not count for anything in your mind. Is this overlooking the black man? Oh yeah we just go to Africa for public relations. Riiiiiiight.
As far as the Black History month goes I know many black people who are offended by it, and not just in this church. They say they are tired of being pandered to by everybody. At least at church we should not be pointing out our differences but the fact that the Bible says "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Col 3:11
That's the attitude of GG. Reach every people group in every country possible including the USA.
When I get a chance I will let Pastor Renaldo in Zambia, (another one of our token American Black Pastors on the missionfield), know that he is part of an organization that doesn't let black people do anything. If I get a chance I'll make atoken list for you. On second thought why don't you come to missions night and see for yourself. It's next thursday if you are interested.

(Message edited by jokesonyou on June 14, 2005)

(Message edited by jokesonyou on June 14, 2005)

[yogi (yogi)]

jokesonyou is right! You've definitely bought into the GGWO baloney and are squawking the company diatribe. Your name suites you since the joke is indeed on you for believing in a cult like GGWO...

yogi

[dontchugthekoolaid (dontchugthekoolaid)]

Jokesonyou you definately are drinking the koolaid at the plaza!!! The jokes really on you!

[jokesonyou (jokesonyou)]

Yogi and koolaid,

Was it the part about God that you didn't like?

Or did the Bible verse offend you?

Your brilliant responses have left me speechless.

Maybe you two should study for the G E D together.

[timeless (timeless)]

LISTEN JOKES ON YOU,

IT WASNT THE PART ABOUT GOD OR THE BIBLE VERSE! ITS THE FACT THAT YOU ARE CONTINUING TO STAND UP FOR A CULT THAT DOESN'T TRULY CARE ABOUT PEOPLE.

This so called church goes after the vulnerable, the weathly and those who kiss the leadership's butt!

Speaking of P.Renaldo...I once thought of this man as having character and integrity, but I must say that I personally had an encounter with him that was NOT SO godly. He tried his hardest after getting orders from P.Scibelli to convince me not to question leadership. This happened after P.Scibelli noticed that I was aware of things that were happening. Right away I sensed this was NOT from the Holy Spirit. God would not operate this way. This kind of tactic was deceiving and planned.

My prayer for you is that you will listen to the Holy Spirit first and not man. You might be surprised, He may in fact lead you out! God really does do miracles....

By the way, have you ever been to Africa?

[dontchugthekoolaid (dontchugthekoolaid)]

Jokesonyou - Oh gee it must have been the part about coming for Missions night. Why the hell would I waste my time going to what YOU call missions night, when all it is is a bunch of poor brainwashed people! Oh and let me add this, maybe YOU should go get your GED because your probably one of the idiots that count your MBC&amp;S as a real education when it counts for nothing b/c it's not a credited school. You act just like someone from GGWO, proud and arrogant and so much more spiritual than any other Christian outside of GGWO, the CULT!! Get a life.

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Hey joke,
First of all you say at church. The building at the Old frankfort Plaza is not church. We are the church.Your great at name dropping, and that is so wonderful since you are part of a WORLD wide ministry, but ahh let me ask you. Where is Pastor Morin? Where is Pastor Fields. Where is Pastor Arthur who stayed around to the bitter end to get kicked in the teeth by your new elected leader, oppps did I say elected or rejected. And where is Pastor Van.Is Pastor Law still around or not? I don't want to talk to all the brainwashed folks. I want to talk to some who are truly experiencing the Life of the Risen Lord.You know the ones who are Spirit led, not man led. Not those that scream at the top of their lungs " Were submitted to Home Base" How about submitting to Jesus Christ first.Try that on for size. Joke I know you. Your one of those pants chasers, that chase CHS like he was Jesus Christ Himself. You were the one who wanted to knock me down just to get a glimpse at Carl. You went from rap to rap to rap just to sniff the seat where CS sat. You are a Pastor worshipper and are in bondage to a building, a pulpit and a man. I grew up in Baltimore City. Let me ask you something joke. Wheres all my brothers and sisters from 5 miles on either side of the building? But let me ask you, you might be doing great in Africa, of course, you have the Mighty Pastor Sciabelli who has personally built over 80 churches in Africa, but how about on Monument street. You know brother Port and Monument.Now that's where you'll see a " Whole Lot" of AA people. How about Armstead Gardens. Oh yea, You only go down there with a team of 100 people. Why don't you come down with me one night. I'll show you around. How about down the Block, bro. I'll take you down there too. We can make a night of it and you can tell all the girls I know down there about the Grace Home for women, the church just couldn't come up with the money to support.All those tithes and offerings and they wanted the girls to go out and get a job right away. Yea, that would have been wise. I'm sure they would have felt protected, nutured and safe being put out on the street again after the first week they got there. Oh, there built just like men, they have the same capacity and makeup so let's get them out there making the rent. What happened to the money for their housing? Maybe that money went elsewhere. Where you think it went? Now let me see...hmmm and how about all those whores and faggotts ( thus saith the Lord) downtown. They didn't need no help no way. Don't tell me what you've done with Pastor Renaldo, from what I here he's a descent man, in Zambia, you can leave him out of this conversation, but of course I'm sure he got his Good Ole Boys Bible College Edumycation so he could go. In fact that's what Jesus said to Him. 'Now you know Renaldo, you must get your Bible College edumycation so you can go in the mission field " Thus saith The Lord" Joke did you here the message? You know, about all the whores on Baltimore Street as your leader was blasting some guy from the pulpit about going down and visiting " Those Whores" I did, and I had the balls to tell the Messenger he was off that day. Have you ever had the balls to tell him that. Speaking of helping folks out how many folks you got coming out from Pratt and Monroe. North and Longwood, North and Mccullough for missions night? They are part of our mission field aren't they? How many buses you send out to Stricker St and Ramsey. How about Gilmor and Lombard. Oh yea that's right you only go there with 100 people on outreach. Wouldn't want none of dem junkies and whores to git ya. Well you go ahead. I'll let you go to missions night and tell all those folks about the great worldwide ministry that CHS built, and blow about a million lbs of smoke up their ass. Hey you can tell then your in Revival. That should explain the mass exodus. Oh yea that's right no-ones leaving, we just needed to clean those last 5 or 6 rows of chairs for Convention this year. I'll be on the Block that night trying to get someone in the Salvation Army or the Helping up Mission. Whens the last time you preached there. You know the Helping up Mission on Baltimore Street.Or how about the Grace and Hope Mission on baltimore and Gay st. Joke I'm sorry if I offended you about your knowledge of how a great percentile of Black men who I've spoken to have said they felt at GG. I guess they were all lieing. Meanwhile since the ministry has helped so many AA and PWT's like myself to get ahead in the Kingdom, why don't you stand on top of the McCRorys ( you know the new chapel site, that we put change in the wheelbarrow for months for to get that down payment on the New Chapel. Do me a favor would you Joke. Go stand on top of that building with a pair of binoculars and look 5 miles in all directions. Then you'll see a " Whole Lot of AA" See what you can do to reach them, and don't tell me about soul-winning. Come tell me how many of those homes you see that you personally offered to do a Bible Study in. Where that building is sitting, your congregation should be about at least 50% AA,at the very least, but you know what, you want to recruit students, and more students, and more students. You have done well at the uttermost, but you have left your Jerusalem to rot. I know that in the area your in there needs to be about 10 more Grace Homes, but believe me you have put enough bull on Shelton to last 5 lifetimes. Maybe he could use a little help. And dear God above, how about all those precious women who lower themselves and demean themselves, and put their very lives on the line every night just to make enough to support their child or children and their habit, Yet you drive past them every night on your way back to Harford County up 95N, and it's out of sight and out of mind. There are literally 10's of thousands of AA as you put it within your grasp, yet you drive on by, thinking... Hey, we let AA get ahead in our ministry, hell we even let him read the Scriptures. Don't tell me about outreach. He didn't get that job for sometime after. if that doesn't work for you then get a good night sleep knowing that at least you let Tom Fields read the Word before service. Equal oppurtunity is everywhere at GG, as long as you submit to Spiritual Authority and of course Home Base. Wait a minute, a black brother of mine was just telling me how he was getting tired of being pandered to. Sorry about that.I've seen some of those over 200 African Pastors the ministry has ordained. As a matter of fact one worked with me for a while during his stay in Baltimore with another African Pastor. My 5 yr old little girl knew more about Jesus than both of these two put together. You get in a country like that and say, " Watch, we can make our numbers soar" Yet the Bible tells us to lay hands on no man suddenly, yet just as you pump out Pastors from foreign lands that, I remember one who stayed at the Tree House. Great Ambassador of Christ, but a Pastor, no way, yet GGWO ordained them. Se you can talk about a GREAT WORLDWIDE MINISTRY,but as far as pastors are concerned, some are called and some volunteer. At GGWO I seen many, many voluteers. You missed a geat one when Pst Art was refused but I guess a call that is obvious to everyone, but Pst Schaller, and of course him being black had nothing to do with it. You know what, I'm glad he rolled out, your loss, not God's. Hey Joke I came from a Pentacostal background. Matbe we could meet one time and I could lay hands on you. We'll pray for a healing after. What ya think.???? You are a joke!!

Thank God
I'm Gone to PA

[jokesonyou (jokesonyou)]

You are not kind gone to PA.

Your goal is to insult.

Yes I am good at name dropping because the names are there including P. Law who sat on the stage Sunday morning. Why leave P. Renaldo out of it?
P.Atkins and Morin and whomever have the right to worship wherever they want to, just as you and I do.

I choose to worship where God led me to over 25 years ago.

Whether I am a joke or not I am not going to receive my self image from a person such as you. I receive my self image from Jesus Christ who saved me and washed me in his blood.
I'm not a man worshiper I am a God worshipper.
I will however follow a man who follows God.

I don't mind having a conversation with you but I won't if all you want to do is make accusations and insults.

You said in a previous post that two black men aren't enough to show you that the ministry is open to black people so I sited more examples. For some reason you say that those examples are not valid. Were you looking for Jesse Jackson to join the Church? (just kidding)
You talk your talk to Pastor Moses and see what he has to say about it if you have the guts.

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Joke,
You make Pastor Moses out like I'm supposed to be afraid to talk to him. I'm not afraid of you him, or any other person who has anything to say that makes sense. You never addressed any of the inner city issues I stated. You follow a man who calls girls lost in prostitution " Whores" and Homosexuals "Faggotts" Then you accuse me of making accusations and insults. I've sat on the stage. I've heard the rhetoric. You didn't address one thing I said about anything else you avioded it all. like some kind of Jehovah Witness. There were more than two black men who expressed their feelings to me about the ministry. This wasn't just one or two guys. many I have forgotten their names. I had to ask someone about who Pst Van was. I will pray for you, because, please forgive me, but you can't see the forrest because the tree's are in the way.I too once loved GGwo. It wasn't an easy thing to leave contrary to what you might think, and for many, many others it's been a lot more personal, 28 yrs in the ministry, 30 yrs in the ministry. You think it was easy for them to leave. I will rephrase my statement for you so maybe it will sound better. I, GTP, have talked to at least a dozen or more AA who have left the ministry because they felt as though, they would not get a fair shake at GG. They also have their own personal stories to back their side of that statement. Please with a name like Jokesonyou what kind of positive response do you want from people with a name that antagonizes anyone in whom you are addressing. maybe you need to take the beam out of your own eye, so you can see clearly to take the speck out of mine. Talk to Pastor moses if I have the guts. Why don't you and i meet somewhere unbeknown to anyone so as to not draw an audience and then I'll let you examine for yourself exactly just how much guts I have, but be forewarned, don't let your words or actions overload your ass. You don't know me from a hole in the ground, but I know your type and your not built to go the distance with someone like me. So until you change your name to something that isn't personally set up to aggravate and insult whoever you address, your best bet is to leave me out of your post's. I want no response from you. You promised to not talk to me anymore if all I do is insult and accuse. Ok, I accuse you of being a mindless, spineless WHORE for CHS. I hope that will do it.

To all others, please forgive my language, for I know that is not God's heart, and truly I don't ever want to respond to anyone like that, but as I told another one day. I don't see things as having a lot of gray areas. It's either black or white with me as it was for Jesus. " Either your with me, or against me" I have no trouble with a spirited debate, but when you pick 1 or 2 things possibly out of the 20 things I addressed, and don't bother to respond to what was said then your not trying to have a debate, " Come, let us reason together", by his very name he has come to FN to do nothing, the exact thing he accused me of. Accuse and insult. I love how people can turn things around to suite their own brand of bull....Again, I'm sorry, but that old guy just doesn't want to hear he's been crucified all the time. Between the Lord and me, we'll convince him of it one day. Please forgive me if you can find it in your heart.

Gone to Bed
maybe like Misil
I'm off and I'm tired.
PS Please Pray for Randy and Roxy Miller. Both were riding their Harley when some idiot blew a stop sign going about 50 mph. Randy is in Schock Trauma not expected to live and Roxy is in a coma as she was then after being hit by one car was shoved into another lane of traffic and run over by a car. The Doctors say it will take no less than a miracle for either to survive. They have a baby too.

[misil (misil)]

jokes,
i bet gone has the guts,
great post gone
i would like to add somthing,
what do you think ggwo does with all the offering moneys.
they say it is for missions but a missionary has to raise thier own money to go!
and what about outreach,you just heard gone tell you about Grace Homes that were talked about planed and then fell in the money phase!
where else could all that money go, i know maybe to radio! nope they take a second offering for that in the widows mite envelope.

hey jokes maybe you can answer the question, since you know so much about the inner workings of the ww ministry.
they do have a ministry in Switzerland dont they!!!!!!

if the people in ggwo tithed ten percent, lets see.
1800 times lets say everyone makes 500 a week(and we know alot of people make alot more and some make less plus the big business)so its times 50 thats 90,000 a week and that doesnt include the second offering for the new church that has been going on for years on weds.
that also doesnt include the money branch ministries send every month on the weekly tithes there(suposedly for missions)

where does it all go!!!!! can you tell me!!!!!!

[misil (misil)]

let me add one more thing,
i personally know two missionaries that went overseas that are practically starving right now!!! in isreal is one of them. they can only afford to eat meat(of anykind) one meal a week and they are broke!!1 is ggwo missions helping them...

[itsahokes (itsahokes)]

Gone-to-pa: I'm taken by your portrait of life within a 5 mile radius of GGWO. What a gold mine of opportunity to do something meaningful with one's life. Help people. I've never lived there but you've renewed my sense that "being a Christian" can't be extricated from reaching out to people in a real way. Not telling them about God, but being God to them. I always hated "soul winning" ministries since I don't believe Christianity is about profession; I don't believe God gives a hoot about who said a prayer to "get saved". I think it's about making a difference in someone else's life in such a way that they know something of God by how we care.

Well, thanks for the thought provoking post.

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

misil please email me asap. thanks. inmercyrejoice@hotmail.com

[ariel (ariel)]

Your the man GONE TO PA!
All that 'Jokes' could come up with was a pathetic holier than thou response without addressing your questions or challenges.

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

The truth never has to defend itself. It just is!
Thankyou so much for the forgivness and the support I have found here. It's nice to be real isn't it. I've always been accused of being that and I always took it as a compliment. To Jesus be all the glory. Ariel and misil, that you for keepin it real! As for you my friend; Itsahokes. See, I got tired of going out telling people about Jesus and then going home to my cushy couch while they walked the streets half the night. Your absolutley right, it's never about a profession; morelike taking possesion of the person of Jesus Christ. My plan was to go downtown to all the street girls we knew and then say, " You what what so and so; it doesn't have to be like this." " "You can leave your dance shoes, your needles, all those old clothes, leave everything behind, and me and my wife are going to take you to a place where we will work with you to get your kids back in time. It will be a place of rest, safety, protection, and a place where you will be discipled on a daily basis. i had the curriculum from the Teen Challenge for girls, which we would have switched around as far as doctrines to let them know they were not going to lose their salvation every other week e.tc. I had women who were seasoned in the ministry who wanted to invest in these girls lives. See, itahokes; it's one thing to tell someone about Christ. It is quite another to give them Him. we were not told to go out and soul win, we were told to make disciples of all men and women. That takes a little more than an afternoon visit.And don't tell me the church didn't have the money to do it. Heck, just give us back all that wheel barrow money and we could have bought a huge house for the girls, just like " New Life for Girls" in Westminster.

It never ceases to amaze me by the things He can accomplish through His Body, when He finds that folks really want to play ball.

You guys humble me
Thank God, someone has to.
Gone to PA
until you see me on Marylands Most Wanted Again ( that's a story for another time) Nite-nite

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Exactly. The punk chooses a handle "jokesonyou" and talks a big line of crap, but then cries like a three year old when someone calls him out. And of course avoids answering any real questions. Instead, just like the drug addicted coward they all worship, he starts trying to say you're critical of God.

Jokesonyou? The joke is DEFINITELY on you! And I'm laughing until I wet my pants.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Jokes,

25 years and still so much to see.
I was speaking of "Homebase", the plaza if you will. Sure black men are permitted to pastor other churches and in other countries. These locations are not GGWO central. Let’s talk only of the "PLAZA". One of your two examples, P. Wright, was removed from a great position. Sure he was graciously **sigh** given another position, but it was absolutely a demotion. Gone to PA brought up a good point, where GGWO is located and the places that they choose to do outreach, the Plaza should be at least 50% AA. You may look around and see a diversity of faces, but the percentages are soooo small.

Did you read Hassan's Story (http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&amp;post=145972#POST145972)? Check it out.

Where do most of the new people and students come from? Not from the areas surrounding the complex, but from branch ministries. This is why GGWO is predominately white. White pastors going to white areas and sending white people to Baltimore. Don't get me wrong, those guys have done great work (especially if they have disaffiliated).

GGWO is a shallow well, you have to stop drinking the kool-aid to see it.

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Misil,

A Pastor who posts on here has been as he puys it Ghosting our posts here as of late. He believes I used unappropriate language with Joke. I will say to all of you as I said to him, I apoligized once, I will not do it again. As I explained to this dear sweet ambassador of Christ. Three things you do not do. You don't mess with my Lord, family or my money that I use to feed my family.If you do that then the guy you might encounter next is that Old Man that used to think nothing of dropping someone like a sack of potatoes. That guy, and as i said before I've been reading here for months before I said a word, has taken everything that is precious. All the love, commitment, and personal sacrifice that so many here have given to CHS and GG. Some 20, 30, 40, and maybe even 50 yrs or more, and to just ignore it like it is a non-factor makes my blood boil. This kind of stuff shows me a total lack of sensitivity and understanding for the things that some many have suffered and endured at the hands of this ministry. To say all that heartache doesn't mean a hill of beans, says to me that you who talk like that need an attitude adjustment and I have no problem handing one out, in Jesus name of course.(LoL) What I will do though is ask forgivness one last time for any of you dear sweet people that I might have offended in any way. Please, will you forgive me. Like I said sometimes that Old Guy doesn't know his place is one the cross and just sometimes he wants to come out and get a few licks in. This is what I will say about that situation.' The Lord will perfect, that which concerns me" I'll trust him. I guess 100 more pastors from Ghana can come and help our inner city special kids. Let's remember we have to grow the numbers in AFRICA, as if there are no other ministries there. That way on Missions night we can look like were not members of the Good Ole Boy's fraturnity. Look, I have nothing against Africa or any other country that needs to be reached for the Gospel. Have you ever seen that Televangelist who goes to Africa all the time and millions come to see him. As a matter of fact everytime he is there, people get stomped to death, just to see him. He waved his Bible one time and so many were " Slayed in the Spirit" ( Not my belief) that as they fell backwards they were crushing each other to death. But he loves to claim how millions have accepted Jesus through his ministry. I love that. HIS MINISTRY. How about the Lords ministry that he is a stewart over? P.Sciabelli has single handley built over 80 churches in Africa. Now don't get me wrong, and I know I'll probally get another rise out of this. Why don't you take the money, that you beg for every week from Grace Hour, which has turned into a medium to have people from all over the world call in and tell the world how great CHS is, and how no-one could live without him, and how folks don't know what they would have done if it were not for Grace Hour, and let's never forget Home Base. Let's be real, and if you met the ministry through Grace Hour, believe me if God wanted you at GG, he would have gotten you there. Grace Hour or not. But wow, the money that goes into that 1 hour of personal praise for CS might be spent well working with some of the less fortunate, but like I said last night. Jesus commanded us to go to Jerusalem, Judia, Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the world. What about our Jerusalem. Did you know that Baltimore has the biggest, herion problem per capital in the U.S. Forgive me this might be off slightly, but at the time of my research, it also had the same problem for crack cocaine, aids, STD's herpies, ghonorhea, e.t.c. Guess where the problem is. The inner city once known as the murder capital of the US. Why because we have way less square miles in our fair city, but the problem is a epedemic levels. If you don't believe me call Doctor George Belan, head of the Board of Health and Human Resources. I know, I have a great idea. I personally know about 10 girls who if given a new lease on life would walk away gladly if they could come to a place in the country away from all the stench of downtown. They want out bad, but no-one will help. Sure there are literally 20 programs or more in the greater balt, Metro area for men. You know how many for the girls that I am speaking of. About two, and one of them is in Westminster. All I wanted was a duplex house where my family was on one side and my wife and I on the other with only a door seperating us in case of any unforseen mischief. Our salary would be so that we could throw our lives into building up these women, who have been used and abused for years. They need the Lord and tender loving kindness. They need to have all their needs met. Working on getting kids back, legal matters being dealt with, but the most important of all their needs, is to get all their Spiritual needs met and not by some legalistic jugheads.This ministry would be one of those 24-7 deals, bringing women back and forth to service three times a week. I even had a couple of drug stores that were willing to donate toilettries and femine products. I witnessed the faith House in Fredrick for women. I watched the director throw a woman and her child on the street because they was not allowed to smoke. Think of what a beautiful duplex could be bought by the Grace Hour shutting dwon. But that sure is a pipe dream, that's CS baby. brought girls up there from Baltimore, when with some help instead of run arounds and power plays to see who could jockey themselves into a position to make themselves look good and get all the credit, we should have just funded what I was talking about. You don't think I would have had to sacrifice and my wife's sacrifice to keep aplace like this up and running. But you know what? We were willing to go the distance, but women weren't a priority, they were " those Whores" downtown. Misil remind me to tell you about the heart of a prostitute and a dancer. I worked with them many years and sat with them after hours many nights and just a skim off the top. One of their thoughts daily was suicide. What a thing to ponder dailY. THEY WOULD POUR THEIR HEARTS OUT TO ME NIGHT AFTER NIGHT AND IT WOULD BREAK YOUR HEART TO JUST LISTEN. Not to mention their testimonies. Well I'm going for now. Thank you all for your love and support. You have really been family to me and great great fellowship. Misil give me a call, and Dave Munson, this ones for you.
" Jesus is just alright with me"
" Jesus is just alright Oh yea"
"Jesus is just alright with me"
" Jesus is just alright Oh yea"
Love all you brothers and sisters. I was adopted for real, so it really is nice when you get to meet all your long lost brothers and sisters. Shalom....Gone to PA/ You'll notice some blanks...had to do some editing. Just had someone tell me the rules. Thanks for letting me know!

(Message edited by Gone to PA on June 15, 2005)

[nonotone (nonotone)]

misil &amp; gone_to_pa,

You might want to consider that the persons you mention in your previous posts have up to now remained anonymous here on FN. Given their geography and the fact that this forum is world-wide you might want to edit to your posts to remove references to location and identity of these dear ones.

Love in Christ,


nonotone

(Message edited by nonotone on June 15, 2005)

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Not to point fingers,
What is the editing rule noe. Anyone who has not posted, we should not mention their names. Maybe someone might have clued me in when I was first welcomed. Anywho, I see all kinds of names of people that have not posted yet their names are all over here. Sciabelli, Schaller, Steve Stevens e.t.c. Is it that the rule only applies to who? Please explain, I'm still new at this. Some of those I mentioned are dear friends. Can someone please explain in detail. Thanks, I took your advise and did the best I could!!

Gone to PA

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

If any would like to contact me, i've posted my e-mail.

God to Pa....opps Gone to PA,
but God, your welcome above the Mason-Dixon Line anytime!!!!Happy Fathers Day.abba father
Love your son GONE

[itsahokes (itsahokes)]

Gone-to-pa: I've been looking at the website you posted, ptmin.org, and found some great thoughts. I especially liked "The Bible is not a Jigsaw Puzzle". Frank Viola's testimony has a line I so identify with..."the institutional church facilitates the spiritual impoverishment of many".

[heather (heather)]

Gone2pa I applaud you brother..keeping posting and keep telling it like it is. I'd walk those streets with you anyday.
GG Newark "soul wins" in the $350,00 and up homes, then straddles the pulpit and gay bashes. Are these people not worthy of salvation? Wisot once bragged that his preaching made a homosexual man get up and run from the church. he was such a big shot that night. Ohh how he bragged " I ran the homosexual out" Niether he , nor one of his sock puppets went out to the man to minister to him, to give him the message of salvation, not one. Instead they laughed at him and mocked him. Go ahead Jokes on you defend this cult full of closet homosexuals and perverts. I wonder which catagory you fall under.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

gone_to_pa,

Thank you so much for the gracious way you handled this. The reason for my post is that the folks you originally mentioned *could* be in danger if certain government officials discovered their identity or whereabouts. In a public forum like FN, it is a good idea to never mention the names or locations of any Christians who live in countries where the message of Christ cannot be freely proclaimed.

The leaders in Baltimore (Schaller, Schibeli, Stevens, etc.) are already "high profile" and travel freely between many countries for relatively short periods (3-6 months) of time. This is very different from those who live for longer periods of time in places where the Gospel is very restricted.

It has always been very important to protect the identity of these folks, but now more than ever with the Internet and the ease that it provides for anyone to do "research" via GOOGLE and other Serach Engines.

In Christ's great love,


nonotone

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Now here's something that made me laugh my butt off. I was at a friends and the O'Riley (Spelling?) Factor was on. O' Riley was complaining about some one sucking up some bad information and this is the statement he ended with "keep on drinking that koolaid" I was almost rolling on the floor. Do you think he reads factnet? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

(Message edited by pressing_on on June 16, 2005)

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Hello beautiful people,

Thanks Heather and Nono. I would count it a privledge to walk any city street with any of you. nono, thanks for letting me in on all that.Itsa, let me say did you read the one on "Where did the Pastor Come From?" Now what Frank is talking about is having fellowship the way we were meant to, and when we can learn to become a community that really ( DON"T take these words lightly) Forgives, Accepts, Cares, Exhorts, and Submits one to the other we could be a community of believers that couldn't be stopped. I'll keep on keeping on as long as the Lord is in it. It was told of me a long time ago that part of my ministry would be to step on toes, and as long as the Holy Spirit leads me in that way, so be it. I know I'm not perfect and I'll be the first to admit it, but I've never had a problem with pushin up on people for the Lord. One night there was a guy downtown who became a friend of mine who was street preaching and another guy who was on the opposite corner doing what we call in the bussiness " Barking" trying to get guys to come into the night-club. Well to make a long story short the street preacher got so loud that he aggravated the doorman for the club. He started hollering obscenities at the preacher, but where he made his mistake was he started saying some crude stuff about Jesus. Enters ME. I walked over told the doorman the preacher had as much right to sell Jesus (so to speak) as the doorman did to sell women, then after saying that, I proceeded to drop him for talking about Jesus like that and walked away. I've never minded to much laying hands on folks that need it, in Jesus name as long as we can all pray for that healing after LoL.

Praise Him
Please nobody respond with a bunch of hyper spiritual bologna about how I should have ministered to the doorman. There is enough of that hyper doo-doo down at the plaza to last anyone a lifetime. Let's at least be real. Thank you so much for all of you that are, and that doesn't mean that you have to agree with me either. It just means " To thine own self be true"

Love ya
Gone

[yogi (yogi)]

Gone,

You hit the nail on the head, HYPERSPIRITUAL DOODOO! These people pontificate so much they can't relate to the planet earth! It's kinda creepy listening to their spiritual rationalization of situation which has existed in GGWO for almost three years now. Guess some people prefer delusions to reality.

yogi

[minutus (minutus)]

That's why it's called the Mother Ship http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>jokesonyou says,
You are not kind gone to PA.

Your goal is to insult.
-----------------
I just gotta respond to this one.

gone_to_pa has a heart after God.This is easy to discern.If you where offended by what he said,too bad.Truth is sometimes hard to swallow.

It is so easy to see that he is frustrated with the crap that is taking place.The lack of concern for the flock and those who need to be met where they are at.
I'm so sorry (NOT!) that he calls it as he sees it.
Men of integrity are scarce nowadays.We need more people who will stand up for the truth and not compromise because it might offend someone.

Personaly,I'm not impressed with those who are in "athaurity" at this stage of the game.

Where is the reconsiliation?
Where is the brotherly love and concern for those that have been mislead or "marked?"

Why do so called "leaders" need to be protected and not questioned?
There's the sticking point"do not question the pastor".I've got news for you.If you don't question,you'll get no answers.
If a man is walking with God,what does he fear about questioning?
Fear is not of God.

get it?

Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia,

</font>}Dave