Concerning the Spiritual in Art part 2

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Let's try bringing this back. This is not the first post on the original thread; but seems like a good starting place for new discussion. I feel a need for some different type of territory than what seems to be going down. I need a fix cause I'm going down ....

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)
Member
Username: bob_brinton

Post Number: 67
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 141.154.161.226
Posted on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 4:50 am: ææ
As a sometimes 'artist' and a basically creative individual, I believe that while I don't always understand where the elements of what I do come from, that they do come from somewhere; and that God knows where and how. I believe that he instigates what we call creativity.

What can frustrate me at times are the rules and schools of thought that people come up with for creative expression; and how they use these rules and formulas to determine what has value and how much. Why is an oil painting considered artistically superior to a watercolor; and what does the length of its existence have to do with the value of art? Are your words of more value if they are preserved in a book? Does that make them more true? If true words are given and then 'lost', are they not still of greater value than false words which are preserved? What value does extended time have over the moment? And do not certain moments have much greater value and influence than others? Think of Esther before the king; a crucial moment she shone in that God has preserved for eternity.

So; if our art or music or words portray things given us by the Spirit of God; then does it really matter if they are designed by Him for a particular moment or to be preserved 'for posterity'? Something right was captured in the phrase that music is the nectar of the gods. It's just that there's only One. And while you're right, Boddah, in saying that we can't know with certainty in a provable way; by faith I know that God knows. He's holding me; not vice-versa.

This brings up another point. It is logically impossible that God exists, or that we do. And yet it is also logically impossible that we don't. Where could God or the first thing come from? And it can't be the illusion thing; because to have an illusion, someone has to exist that has it; and that being would have to come from somewhere. So; we are here; but impossibly so. This is human wisdom; and it's nonsense. All of our sense belongs to God, as do we. Faith is a choice. It's not blind, but we are if we are without it. He gives the scope to our vision, to our understanding. He inwardly defines sense for us through His Spirit. And He within us connects with the Word. That gives us spiritual context. We have a Comforter Who convicts us also. You might say God is odd.

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

There is an inherent creativity in the human race because we are replicas of the Creator. It is His nature to create and so it is ours also. Not the same as Him but like Him.

The human race is creative. It's not just painting,literature, or music. We build things. There is architecture and engineering, transportation and manufacturing. There is always the search for a better mousetrap. And new ways to entertain ourselves. Someone invented chess. And hockey. And the sand spike to hold your fishing pole.Even people who don't consider themselves to be artists use creative skills on a daily basis. Think of the tradesman troubleshooting a problem on the job, perhaps inventing a new tool.

As a result of the fall creativity has been perverted. The human race seems bent on destroying itself as it invents more efficient ways to wage war. We now live under threat of thermonuclear and bacterialogical destruction. Designer viruses. It is often amazing to see the ingenuity of criminals as they invent new ways to steal. Telemarketing scams, phony ATM cards, and cheating at cards to name a few. What if all this creative energy was used to solve the world's problems?

I think the above question concerning longevity could be summed up in this word: Popularity. Much great art, music, and writing is completed daily but if no one sees or hears it then it becomes lost. "If a tree falls in the forest does anybody hear." The flip side is if people think it's good then it may stay around for a while. Even if it's not that good. Shakespeare is good, but there may have been others who couldn't find an audience once he arrived on the scene. Unfortunately the decisions regarding exposure are usually made by non-artists whose primary concern is the market place. And often great artists are terrible businessmen which only compounds the problem.

So you have to create for yourself. Personal satisfaction is the goal as you continue to expose yourself to new techniques and new inspirations in order to improve the work. The work is the goal, and the reward. Somehow we are driven, as God Himself was driven. Hopefully someone will like it. If it's good and the marketing reps or the public don't accept it, oh well. Not everyone is in awe over a beautiful sunset.

Next time: Existentialism and Why David Hume was a Big Fat Jerk.

Jim

ps. The only writing I am doing now is on Factnet. I wasn't doing anything last year so I guess it's a good thing. It does seem to be a creative outlet for writers and speakers, and maybe even some comedians. At least you have a small audience.

[minutus (minutus)]

Get out your bag, Jim.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Not sure I follow you Dave. But another idea: Part of the Divine purpose of creativity is to serve others; to share what you see. And this with the idea that others can and will build on it.

[calv (calv)]

life is art

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Here we are beautiful creations of God, waiting to be molded. As we go through life we collect concepts, truths, lies, false identities, ..all which began to shape our image. I picture the great sculpter with chizel in hand, chizeling all that that shouldn't remain, smoothing, shapeing, forming. I see gentleness, kindness, patience, peaking through. The sculpter continues with great intensity hour after hour, shaping, forming, molding. I now see mercy, longsuffering, peace, as the work intensifies love begins to show forth like never before.
The great sculpter steps back and ponders on His work, He is well pleased.
His glory is revealed, as it shines forth brightly. He proclaims with joy in His heart as he reflects on His masterpiece of grace. He now sees himself in the eyes of His creation.
(2 Corinthians 3:18)

[arguendo (arguendo)]

"Someone invented chess. And hockey. And the sand spike to hold your fishing pole."

1. Bored peope who wanted to achieve the ultimate boring experience.
2. People looking for a legitimate reason to beat the crap out of each other in the winter because they were bored.
3. Some guy with extra PVC pipe hanging around who was tired of holding his pole.

What's the difference between problem solving and artistic creativity? No utilitarian purpose. Maybe.

(Message edited by arguendo on June 13, 2005)

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif Maybe God was bored...

[arguendo (arguendo)]

How can you explain it all? A troublesome lot, human beings are.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Yes. How is it Linus put it? Born unto trouble as the sparks fly upward?

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Nice to see you around, Bob.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Thanks Anon. Sometimes I get feeling a bit disconnected here. There were about three weeks that I could only reach the forum a few times. And I wrote an answer to Calv's post above that just sank into the cyber netherworld and could not be retrieved.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I believe that walking in the Spirit is an art form. That He inhabits us with nuances and flavorings that give off the aura of His personality and attitude. That we are the Lord's gardens in which He chooses to plant things and to raise unusual 'crops'. That He can express things through us in an unbelievable variety of forms. I think we limit His expressions and intentions by trying to simplify them so we'll understand. We try to funnel that which is spiritual into something we can grasp and wield for our own ends. We want God to be someone we can maneuver. We believe we can do that because of things He has said, like 'ask anything...' It's not that simple. We are the instruments and He is the player. We don't see all the patterns or goals He has. What we do see is what He decides to show us. We often try to live by our own eyes, instead of allowing Him to give us eyes of understanding.

[calv (calv)]

pitchin ****
over the bank
in my back yard
cleaning up
makin a pile
give it a while
soon Ill have
blue ribbon soil
that will grow
what ever I plant
it makes me look good
pitchin out ****
on a big heap
the more that you grow
the more that youll have
pileing and turning
mulch it all rots
turning whats bad
into something good
a gift thats free
it takes work
if thats what it is
that you see
or maybe its fun
its up to you
what you do with your ****
dont throw it away
see what its worth
some toil-some soil
some rich black dirt
keep adding
keep taking
year in and year out
see what is growing
in my yard
the pile gets bigger
my garden gets better
and I feel good
pitchin ****

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Pew, I can smell you from here.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

Long time no hear Calv, hope you are doing well.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Calv.
That is an incredible poem. Do you have any others?
I would like to read more.
The fact that pres.on could smell something adds to the power of your words.
I am not joking though-you have a gift in poetry.
Patricia

[calv (calv)]

good soil rocks

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I like that Calv. I think we're supposed to learn from all the **** in our life. Things that appear bad can often be turned to good ends.

[calv (calv)]

exactly
but you have to keep turning it over.
you have to know whats good and whats not
over time you learn what works or
what the weeds really are.
some stuff may be good but it invades other places it dosent belong.
every season has waste.
every season is preperation for the next.
God uses the usless stuff to feed us....
but first it must be pulled out, then put in the right place.
over time he breaks it down into something we can use.
It stays in our life but it gets put to use.
so often its easyer to just put in a can,and have it taken away.
the process is a lot of work
but the rewards
spectacular
one day at a time.
the garden looks great in every season
if thats what you see.
the winter reveals the stones
nature put there
brought to the surface
i pull them out
use them to make beds
like jewels around my garden
you can use what you have
or throw it away
its all up to you
the yard is your life
what does it look like
do you buy new plants every year
add chemicals
to make em look nice
or do you build up your soil
take what others discard
give it a home
and some love
and watch it thrive
in a natural healthy enviroment
it takes work
etc.....

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Calv,
Will you be going to the reunion. I love your way with words and would be totally honored to make your acquaintance? I've been told more than once that I am full of **** so we would get along fine my friend.
I have to find some of my old poems, probably they will sound very silly now, never know though,,,the human experience has no set rules.
Keep it up calv. I am glad to hear from you.
Patricia

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

This day, June 16th, is the 25th anniversary of the last concert Gentle Giant played. Rock music had a golden age. It was the time of progressive rock, art rock, classical rock. It was the art thing in musical form. Giant was among the finest, a brief brilliant flash across the world's stage. Some of their albums are being currently rereleased as 35th anniversary remasters. Thinking people's music. Kick your listening up a few notches.

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

ummm...wanna name a song by this group? I don't think I've ever heard of them...

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

You wouldn't likely know any of their songs. I don't think I ever heard them on the radio. There's a song called 'Aspirations' on the album 'The Power and the Glory' that is 'normal' enough so that it could have been. I believe the album is based on Grahame Greene's book. The albums 'Free Hand' and 'Octopus' are both exceptional. Very complex music that combines a lot of musical influences.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Bob,
I recently picked up a book by Grahame Greene called 'The Last Word'. It is a compilation of short stories. The first one is about an old man who is really the last living pope and he is being put to death after being forgotten, by the top general of the one world system. It was eerie because they called him Pope John the third. I got goosebumps all the way through it, and I read most of it in a pub (looking like a total nerd of course). Love your thoughts Bob, meant to tell you sooner. You are a thinker and very edifying.
Patricia

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Thanks Patricia. The Power and the Glory is about an alcoholic priest being pursued by an antagonistic government. In Mexico, as I recall. It was an interesting read. I picked it up because of the album.

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

sounds interesting....might look into it.

[minutus (minutus)]

Bob, ever tried Iona? A British group with somewhat of a prog rock feel. I'm listening to their "Open Sky" CD now and really enjoying it. Gentle Giant was very creative. Saw them open for Renaissance in 1974 at my very first concert. Their vocals were quite prodigious.

[offshore (offshore)]

For all you spiritual gardeners, here's the movie for you!!
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/8200/Tour2.htm

( BEING THERE with Peter Sellers)


http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/8200/being.html

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Dave, I have a few of their albums and like them. Some of that Celtic stuff (sorry Jeannie) can wear a bit thin after a while, but Iona doesn't. Yes' vocals came across really well back in the 70s. Dig out your CSN and Deja Vu. It amazes me how many bands now have singers that can't even hold a pitch. Including bands that play really well.

[minutus (minutus)]

I know what you mean about the Celtic thing. It became a fad and fads rapidly water down the good stuff. Same happened with fusion - it went from Miles and Mahavishnu to "smooth jazz" (insert vomit smiley here). Iona would be convincing whatever style they chose because of their quality.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I don't know if this constitutes art, and the 'spirit' it's of is questionable; but have a few laughs on me.

http://anomalies-unlimited.com/Jackson.html

[calv (calv)]

Bob....wow talk about the ultimate cutter!
Im the same age as him, watching the progression of his life vs my own makes me wonder....does anyone really know who he is?

Patricia
sorry i wont be able to attend the picnic...
got a couple root canals
in the morning
a vacectomy at noon
followed by a couple weeks entertaining the in-laws!
so im pretty booked out right then.....

ahhh....the poetry
its something new
ive been called a lot of things
and thats one of em
funny the impact
factnutz can have on ones life
who God uses
and why
I pray for you guys constantly
I know what its like
I read what you say
it makes me think
just a part of my life
few people get
whats really going on
its hard to say
keep pressin on
well get there someday

calv

[calv (calv)]

a test

sit in a chair
lift your right foot
twirl it clockwise
with your right hand
draw a "6" in the air
your foot will change directions
you can't do anything about it
check it and see

something to do in your spare time

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Calv, you are a lateral thinker, ever heard that saying. I met a writer of fiction who said it has to do with seeing the ordinary articles in our life and imagining we have no clue what they are for: then think of a totally different reason for their existance. It was in a class and we had a lot of fun redefining ordinary things like pencils, ties, shoes, coat racks etc.....
I love your posts they make me smile, that is a gift I love to receive.
patricia

[calv (calv)]

http://www.worth1000.com/default.asp

some interesting art

[calv (calv)]

http://www.worth1000.com/cache/contest/contestcache.asp?contest_id=974&display=photoshop# entries

gotta click on religious shapes

i liked the wolf in sheep skin

[calv (calv)]

the good things
in life
can be found

if you know
what they are

what do they cost

what are they worth

the good things
in life

are not free

what you must do
to know what they are
the price
that you pay
for what you have

thats what it cost
the good things in life

be careful
what you think
and you do
you dont know
the price

till its too late
for
the good things
in life

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Calv,
after you get through with all your appointments and to do lists you should get published.
Patricia
you remind me a little of e.e. cummings-he was a poet, haven't read him in a long time.
There's a woman named Lucy Shaw some of whose poetry is free form like yours. One of her books is called "Listen To The Green". I need to pull it out of storage. Keep posting.
Patricia

[calv (calv)]

Watching the storm
move over head
Thru the open door

I hear the rain
come down
on top of my shed

The storm outside
me inside
rain pounding down

Reaching the ground
pounding down
in my shed

Thru my head
the storm passes over
Thunder and Lightning

Rumbleing long
Quiet and still
trickleing sound

Clean Rain
outside
me in

I think Ill go out
Breathe the air
Feel the rain

Ive come to love
Each day I live
by whats outside and in

Good to be Free
in the Clouds
and the rain

the trees
and the sun
and moon
and stars

The air
in the wind
and the Snow!

water and mountains
pasture and dessert
rivers and oceans

Places and things
and Time
and People

Theirs somthing about
whats out my door
I think I found it.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I particularly liked that one, Calv.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Thanks Calv, I second Bob's post,

A fan http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[calv (calv)]

The rythem of the rain
Flow of the traffic
Down below
Life keeps on

twisting and turning
I start to grow
Time keeps on slipping
into the past

traveling the road
the journy is life
Rain is refreshing
Time is the key

keep on growing
slow but sure
From under the Rock
laid upon me

The ground is Hard
Rain is good
thirsty roots
Sun up above

I keep on pushing
Thru to the top
Ill rise above
the Heavy Rock

I know he's tending
watching over me
He sees me growing
Knows what I need

I wonder why
this Rocks in my life
He is the gardener
I am his plant

He keeps feeding me
just what I need
One day Ill blossem
for all to see

The Gardener
the garden
me
and the Rock

Seasons will come
and they will grow
when I am old
the Seeds will Flow

onto the ground
around the Rock
laid in their life
They will start growing

what will they be
a reflection of me
what I am doing
under the Rock

busy eating
what He provides
roots growing deeper
into the Soil

branches Hes pruning
looking for Fruit
seasons keep changeing
I keep growing

The rythem of the Rain
falling on me
Right where im planted
He's watching over me

Traffic keeps flowing
down below
Where they are going
I don't know

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Thanks calv, I needed that.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

I have to say that without you all I would be in despair. It is impossible to express what this forum of the inner worlds and stories has done for me. I know people tell me I have a way with words but words without life and meaning betray the very purpose of communication-to impart life, beuaty, hope and joy. Many of us are grieving estrangement from loved ones. Mine live next door and I am an enigma to them, a problem to solve. It hurts so deeply and it is so hard to acknowledge. I guess God doesn't even want me to find refuge in my natural family.
I mean it with my whole being, and in tears, I truly thank God for everyone of you that takes the time to share the treasure that you are.
Patricia

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Me too sojourner, even if some of them harp on me sometimes.
At least we can express freely.

[calv (calv)]

exactly
thats what really matters

love
calv

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

I wrote this for George Jones. He hasn't heard it yet. lol.

He's A Sales Man
(c)2001 All Rights

He's standing in the parking lot
Sizing his next target up
Elevator shoes...diamond ring
He comes at me, extends his hand
A hairpiece in a steady wind, And he knows
That he has what I want

He's a sales man...He's a sales man...He's a sales man...

I try to find how much it costs
Demo ride I think we're lost
Has he told me...anything?
"This ones not on sale you see"
But boy does he have a deal for me, "You got a trade in?"
And we're dancing around

He's a sales man...He's a sales man...He's a sales man...

Cell phones or TV's
Computers or interest rates
Cold beer...Insurance
November's candidate
He's a sales man...

He's lied to me a dozen times
I turn the key it's finally mine
It took two hours...to get it done
I shift the gears and drive away
Third one he's sold today, And I wonder
How he lives with himself

He's a sales man...he's a sales man...he's a sales man...

Jim

[calv (calv)]

beat up pick up
crumpled cowboy hat
ciggarette
two inch ash
hangin down
cold beer
cheap twelve pack
inbred dog
with a google eye
shot gun
two rut dirt road
sagebrush
winding along
thru foot-hills
old log house
privie too!
two best friends
makin dew...

kinda romantic
aint it

you brought out the country in me Jim!
yeehaw

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Hey Jim You and Calv should publish!
patricia

[calv (calv)]

Its fun to see what other people do...
Ive allways learned by watching and then trying.
Kinda a kick....
I hated school as a kid...not a good story
never did well, just barely made it thru high school...
kinda a blurrrr
allways liked work though
grew up on a dariy farm
loved the cows,the crops
the way I felt at nite after a hard day of work
learned that young
loved to build stuff
carpentry, plumbing, electric etc....
always pick stuff like that up real easy
never thought of myself as an artist
but I guess I am....
just began to relize that the last couple of yrs
For the first time in my life
I like writting....
i use to think I was a stupid writer
i hated it
i dispized it
it pointed to failure in my life

it was like i was undisiplind
lazy
i just couldnt do it

but now
its like a voice
i can say things
i could never say
learn things i never knew
all because
someone said i could
i never knew
nobody ever told me
before

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Calv,
You are graduating with honors from the school of life. OK goodnight!
I went to college and had to unlearn a lot of "schoolin". High school was a fog of pot in the seventies...somehow my brain survived and I DID inhale.
LOL,
patricia

[calv (calv)]

blue smoke
came billowing out
as they climbed out of the car
and stummbled
into the bar

urban cowboys
not disco kings
boston
blue oyster cult
the cars

took the long way home
most every nite
how deep is your love
jenny jenny 667 5409
pearl necklace

lost in the smoke
just one more toke
drawn down deep
let it out nice and slow
salvation for one more nite

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Wow, Calv, you are refining your gift right before our eyes....
SIS

[calv (calv)]

Im starting to study
learned what a muse is
guess its what
im thinkin about

emerson looks interesting
and the san francisco movement
my buddy told me about
sure a lot to learn

to try and be a poet
wonder what its worth
why write at all
is it just vain

tryin to make it all fit just right
say something well
in a differnt way
hope they undersand what you say

[sojourner (sojourner)]

It is never in vain to struggle to communicate what has been shown to you. We are made for communion with God and each other. The deterioration in communication, the loss of meaning in language are all part of the great alienation froom the Truth. It is a certain sound, but it doesn't mean canned rhetoric.
Pray for me Calv, I am sick today, head like a sledgehammer and the heat is nauseating.
Thanks,
me

[calv (calv)]

Lord
be with Patricia
today
help her feel better
whatever it is
shes goin thru
and anyone else
the sick and the suffering
be close to them
what ever the need
amen
and thanks
for every thing
that youve done
and
will do
if we just ask

[calv (calv)]

The things that are crawling
thru the valleys of my mind
always consuming
to the core of my soul
digging deeper
into my being
Finding refuge within
moving about
excavating
brought to the top
piled in heaps
wreakage of life
burned to a crisp
all that is left
from the fire
burning thru the past
here in the present
all by myself
shoveling theu thoughts
finding whats left
after the refining
fire in my world
rain on my spirit
washing my brain
rushing thru like a torent
thru the valleys of my mind

thru the valleys of my mind
i still remember
where i began
places ive been
storm in the sky
Thunder and Lightning
in a flash I am struck
a great bolt of power
surges thru me
enlightning
the valleys of my mind

In the valleys of my mind
storm passing over
rain washing thru
carving a canyon
thru the thick walls
exposeing the layers
piled up deep
in the canyons of my mind

In the canyons of my mind
there is an echo
bounceing off the walls
sounds of thunder
lightning does flash
the storms keep brewing
once again to rain down
thru the valleys of my mind

Thru the valleys of my mind
I have been opened
much more light
comes shining in
down in the canyons
rivers flow
carving away
the debris
exposeing the layers
laid long ago
every stone tells a story
every drop exposes
washing away
what is loose
down to the river

in the vallys of my mind
out to the ocean
flowing from me
the rivers within
leaving the pieces
where they may settle
on the ocean floor
of my life

On the ocean floor of my life
it begins to fill up
the treasure that was washed
from the valleys of my mind

the oceans are deep
and very wide
still fully connected
to the rock
underneath
washing away
by the rain

thru the valleys of my mind

the moutains thrust up
cut deep thru the sea
swimming in me
reaching ever higher
the ones I must climb
through the valleys of my mind

In the beggining
soft foot hills
full of beauty and life
the higher I go
the more I can see
the mountains
the oceans
the valleys
the kingdoms
that are mine
all I have been given
to do as I please
the picture gets clearer
the more that I climb
up above it all
thru the valleys of my mind

there on the top
all by myself
looking down
on the valleys of my mind
the river of life
flowing in me
washing mr clean
exposing the walls
built up in my life
thru the valleys of my mind

As I desend
back down again
what will I see
as I begin
to look at the things
crawling
thru the valleys of my mind

so if you see me
on this journey
walking down a path
all by myself
what I am doing
it may look like hunting
the things that are crawling
thru the valleys of my mind

Im just exploring
looking at Rock
the layers built up
seeing the stories
every stone tells
where it came from
part of a mountain
that comes from the rock
thats within
under the oceans
filled by the rivers
out of the canyons
made from the valleys
full of things crawling
thru my mind

now that Im living
what can I do
with those things
all their digging
bringing up from within
whats buried inside
the valleys of my mind