To John an answer for todaybs questions

[juanita (juanita)]

I think that allowing someone to cover up someone who is sexually molesting children is wrong. I am not critisizing the parents of these children, merely asking the question, why didn't they do something after the fact since they could not prevent what happened and I was told by another person on this board, how dare you question the parents of these children. The verse I referred to in Cor. and the meaning of the word bears was from personal study of the word, not from a teaching by Pastor Stevens. I have rarely actually sat under Pastor Steven's personal teachings other than ABD classes and a few other instances. But I have heard from many pastors who have been trained in Bible college in this ministry and I have been blessed. But I also have my own personal walk with God and if I hear something I don't think is right I question it to receive definition. God speaks His word to me in church and out of church. Sometimes in a small whisper, sometimes He wakes me up in the middle of the night to pray. I have been blessed by God thrugh the Holy Spirit. I accepted God when I was 19 in a Baptist church. But when I listened to the teaching from that church I still thought I had to do something to go to heaven. While reading a book by Billy Graham I saw the words Jesus blood is why we go to heaven and nothing we do can be good enough. A light was turned on inside my head,like living in a dark room and I finally saw the truth. God led me into this ministry and I have had the most incredible time of love, I saw Jesus in the Body. Have there ever been times I have been hurt by people, sure, but we are all sinners. Heck God spoke to me out loud one time, when I shared that with my current pastor at the time he told me God doesn't talk to people,( I think he meant out loud)and it must have been an angel who talked to me. I didn't get upset, I just chalked it up to the fact that he doesn't know any better. When a voice says I AM to me and promises a healing you better believe I know it's God in spite of what he says. Do I hold it against him, no. I just don't feel any bitterness towards those who have hurt me. God has given me the grace to forgive. Am I perfect, no way. God is so faithful and I am so thankful for His grace and forgiveness towards me.

[bonniescott (bonniescott)]

Juanita,
You asked why didn't the parents do something? I can only speak for the experiences of my own family. In our case our father was the first perpetrator. Our mother reported both incidents directly to Stevens. I can't speak for her since I wasn't present in those counseling sessions. My guess though is that the very same logic you've applied in many of your posts, i.e. Trust God, All things work together for good, God is big enough, etc. were used to convince her not to take any further action. For me, reading these pages and understanding the lengths that Stevens went to to control individuals has helped me to let go of any lingering blame I held toward her.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

I am breaking my abstinance from posting for this.

The questions John posed to Juanita are in the thread under the heading 'Paul Stevens:good or bad.
He posted it Wed. July 6th at 7:25am.

To say that everyone who posts on FN is bitter is a broad generalisation that disregards the individual and their story. God never does that. His word is all about men and women in conflict and doubts and bitterness. Moses, Jonah, Naomi,Paul to name some of the more 'famous ones'.
God knows our frame that we are but dust and God cares about everything in our lives, He is love and can do nothing else. His judgment stems from love even.
How God works in a persons life is a sacred thing, each story is the unfolding of the work of God who knows the end from the beginning.

Not everyone can say, "Sure I've been hurt but so what, that is what sinners do." To say that to a hurting soul is one of the meanest things in the world. Ever hear of identification, compassion, understanding. Sure if a person you are involved with cannot ever stop being negative you want to see them move on, but even that should be motivated by love not legislation.
I see people here who are evolving, reaching out to each other, albeit in cyberspace, but I think it is of God. I happen to believe God is sick of the superficial one liners 'believers' dump on anyone with a shred of emotional sensitivity.
"Give it to Jesus."
"Trust the Lord."
David said he was devastated when his friend betrayed him, his love was wounded.
I have heard personally Carl Stevens talk about his heart being broken by enemies...and he said it to manipulate the congregation into a sentimental bond. If there is a soul attachment he was a master of fostering them to himself.
But still I would rather he be reconciled to truth, to God, to his own deceptions than to leave him to God for judgment. That is loving your enemies.
In fact I do not think that is even Biblical. David spoke of the devastating effect betrayal had on him.
We are not talking about someone cutting you off in a grocery line or being sharp tongued for a moment.
This forum addresses serious wrongs that have been done in the name of God against God's own children.
You say, Juanita that your exposure to the ministry has been limited, but that you have had good experiences there.
Perhaps you should be a little more respectful of those who have lost children, wives, husbands, sisters and brothers, houses, savings, health because someone used doctrine to create a position of spiritual authority and fatherhood of them.
Recently many heard first hand that Carl Steven told people he was their Pastor "like it or not>"
He has made similar statements to me during my 20 plus years there and it was always in the midst my most insecure motives. He knew I had doubts about the ministry and insecurities about salvation. The underlying message was: Staying in was the only way to know God fully because I was called to one pastor. Unequivocally that is plain bull****.
Jesus does not condemm people for having broken hearts. Ps. 34 says God draws near to the broken hearted.
Where do we get the idea that being hurt by others and saying so is unspiritual? We are not machines we are people that have been called to live in relationships! To disregard our own emotions is to say to God, I do not matter.
In God's eyes we all matter. One soul is worth more than all the world.
So this disregard for our feelings is bunk.
We have all seen Jesus in the Body Juanita and we want to keep seeing Him, that is why false teaching and pernicious ways must be dealt with.
Leaders and teachers do exert powerful influences on people. Why does the Bible liken Jesus to a shepherd and people to sheep? Because sheep by and large are easily led, easily distracted. All the more reason for those with first hand knowledge of abuse from leaders to speak out, shout it out! Teachers will be held accountable on a much more stringent level. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that judgment is reserved for eternity. I think it is because God would rather see them corrected and restored and know the joy of humility before Him and true authority based on love for men not control over others.

By the way, almost everyone here wrote personal letters, or spoke privately about their grievances and they were ignored personally and then slandered publically. That after honoring the office and honoring the Scriptures. So don't tell them to shut up in the name of being mature.
You don't know them or what they are doing now.
These leaders have put their own heads on the chopping block so do not blame the people here because you do not approve of their dissent.
We are dissenting from lies and I do not care how many nice experiences you have had.
David had an army made up of malcontents, men who had given up and lost hope, do you think some of them were bitter. I do. Did that stop David from gathering them up. No it did not and David had a heart after God. He persevered and got to know God's unchanging love that transcended all his sins not excused them.
I am not bitter at all Juanita, but I am burdened.
I do not want to sit here and type, it hurts my back and neck and I have a million things to do.
But I care.
To say people here are upset and not mature, that they are all bitter is a great presumption.
God wants truth in the inward parts because the inner world is what we hide from each other. As long as we cover things up they fester and cannot be healed.
No one is out for blood here. They are out for truth.
Don't gloss over suffering because you place others under your standard of personal experience.
Have a great day!

[calv (calv)]

bitterness infects every life...
what we do
is add stuff like self rightousness
to cover it up
I dont want to grow into a bitter old man
just look around
thier not hard to find
but where could they go
with the load
put on thier back
by some other bitter types