AAA INFORMATION for New Readers

[buggin (buggin)]

Anonymous (64.12.117.20)
Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 2:34 pm:

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Click on these links to find information regarding Greater Grace World Outreach and Carl. H. Stevens, Jr. -

Summary of Grievances Against the Leadership of GGWO

The CRI Martin Report

Gospel Truth Ministry Report

Watchman Fellowship Newsletter

The Alan Lang Story

Elizabeth Dodvydenas v. The Bible Speaks

Dodvydenas Proof of Claim

An Example of Cult Practices in America


Other websites containing information:

www.carlstevens.org (http://www.carlstevens.org)

The Rick Ross Institute

Watchman Fellowship Expositor

re: George Robertson

re: George Robertson

An Elusive Pastor Reborn


Anonymous (64.12.117.20)
Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 2:53 pm:

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The Bambino Posts - Newark, DE


Anonymous (152.163.253.102)
Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 5:14 pm:

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Articles can be found here and load very quickly:

www.carlstevens.org (http://www.carlstevens.org)


Anonymous (205.188.117.20)

[twhtbs (twhtbs)]

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. (John 8:7)

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Let him who can't tell the difference between stone-casting and biblical correction go and learn that he errs not knowing the Scriptures.

1 Tim. 5:20 (ESV)
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

Matthew 18:17 (ESV)
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Ephes. 5:11 (ESV)
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

And you should know this one by heart, although you may have precious little understanding of it:

Romans 16:17 (ESV)
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Oh yeah and then there's this one:

2 Peter 2:1 (ESV)
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

[kalos (kalos)]

Let him that is without the first sin do the stone throwing. If Jesus wouldn't throw the stones, let's let go of ours. Food for thought.}}

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Jesus didn't throw stones, but he sure kicked ass throwing the moneychangers out of the temple.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

twhtbs & Kalos,
Maybe you should send that verse to TS and CHS. They were guick to judge, mark and slander others but have no accountability for their actions. Seems like through plenty of stones.

[twhtbs (twhtbs)]

In 1975 I received Jesus Christ as my Saviour. At the time I was a severe drug addicted, alcoholic, pot-smoking mess. I’m sure some of you can identify. I was delivered instantly from the drugs an alcohol that had had hold on me for more than 10 years. Yes, instantly delivered. I have never touched another dose of anything since then.
One of the people instrumental in leading me to the Lord then began bringing me to the Bible Speaks church in South Berwick, Me. I began asking God what He wanted me to do. Was this my church? Was this my Pastor? Was this the message He wanted me to be receiving? After all, I wanted to be in the will of The One who so graciously delivered me from my grave affliction. (I was one foot in the grave at the time of my salvation.) As I discussed these things with a friend who was in a Baptist church, he encouraged me to listen to the Holy Spirit.
I lived in Portland at the time and this drive to church was not the most convenient. However, the Holy Spirit did, without a doubt lead me to continue with The Bible Speaks church in South Berwick. However, by the time I realized this there was a new pastor there. I had only heard a few sermons from Pastor Stevens before he moved to Lenox.
By 1978 I was ready to do some serious studying so I packed up and moved to Lenox myself. I stayed for a year and then moved back to South Berwick, Me. to help with Bus Ministry. I continued to take a full load of classes in South Berwick via cassette tape and eventually video tape.
In 1983 I returned to Lenox and graduated from a three year missions course, after which I again returned to South Berwick where I have been ever since. Before each of these moves I agonized in prayer about whether it was Gods will, not telling anyone what I was praying about. Each time, God spoke through His Spirit to my heart and assured me when I made a right choice.
From 1975 to the present I have listened to Dr. Stevens at conventions and other visits to Lenox and Baltimore, and on tape and radio as well as times when he came to Maine for visits. I have never discerned anything but humilty and compassion from this man.
Pastor Stevens is not and has not ever been my Pastor. He is and was my Pastor’s Pastor. My Pastor has been a supporter of Pastor Stevens for 30+ years. My Pastor, Pastor Bruce Brown, is the most humble man I have ever met. He Loves God with everything in his being. He does nothing unless it is to Glorify God and The Lord Jesus Christ. He is a soul winner’s soul winner. He received his training from Pastor Stevens. He learned how to soul win from watching Pastor Stevens and he does win many, many souls. That is not the fruit of a heretic’s message! My Pastor is the fruit of a Gospel preached by a Godly, humble man of God – Pastor Carl Stevens.
I’ve said all that to say this. If there is something in the way Pastor Stevens is or has been conducting his life that one disagrees with, one should simply move on and let God deal with anyone who may be distorting His message to His people. It is not for people, outside of the church especially, to correct a member or a Pastor inside the church. That is an internal affair and should be dealt with quietly and in private by the elders. No one else has the right to and to try to usurp that right is a sin in itself.
If, and I do mean IF, Pastor Stevens has become something other than what he was, in his last days on the earth, than wouldn’t it just be compassionate to pray for him and his family and allow God to work?
I am praying for God to touch the minds and hearts of all who have been in Baltimore over the past years to show them the compassionate, GRACE-FULL way to handle these trying times in the church there. (I am savvy to what’s happening there, by the way.)
Pastor Stevens is no longer preaching in the majority of messages is he? Isn’t now a time to pray for healing within the congregation? Why try to destroy a man in his old age? Why try to discredit him when he’s probably on his deathbed? Bitterness is the only reason anyone would do that. Or is it Jealousy? Or hatred? Whatever it is, it’s not a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Everyone of us should search our hearts daily for any thing that doesn’t belong there and ask Gods forgiveness. Animosity, jealousy, bitterness, negativity will destroy us if we harbour it too long. Please don’t let that happen to yourselves. Focus on the Lord Jesus Christ. That’s what it is all about. Life is not about a man or a woman or a doctrine or anything else we might find ourselves occupied with. Go out and win a soul, don’t destroy one.
Sincerely,
Tom Hinckley

[search4truth (search4truth)]

twhtbs,

Thank you for your post. It truly was inspiring and sincere. This is my first day here, seeking for some truth and loved ones that have recently left GGWO. One of them is Pastor Bruce Brown and family whom I've gotten to know over the past years. Is there an e-mail address you can provide or maybe just a church address? I have not been able to find anything on the So. Berwick church.

Take care and thanks again for you post.
Seach4truth

[twhtbs (twhtbs)]

I would like to know who you are before giving out any email addresses.

[search4truth (search4truth)]

OK, I can totally understand, I am just a bit hesitant at this point to reveal my identity. I've never been on this board and feel a bit lost. I also don't think I'll be reading this board often. My only objective was t hopefully connect with some precious folks that i'm looking for. I do not think you know me, nor do I know who most of you are but thank you for responding anyway. I'll have to find some way to find those I care about.

God bless,
Search4truth

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Carl Stevens has not become something he wasn't in his last days on Earth. He was and still is a charlatan who uses the Bible and evangelical Christianity as a tool take advantage of good Christian folks. Maybe God is using an internet message board to expose a cult once named 'The Bible Speaks' now named 'Greater Grace World Outreach'.

It could happen Tom Hinkley.

[kpntreal (kpntreal)]

TWHTBS,
YOU GOTTA BE JOKIN OR ELSE YOUVE STILL BEEN SMOKIN
to much weed.
Get a clue pal.
Your stance is to say pray and look the other way.
Your pastor (Bruce) may be ever so humble, but he doesn't have the backbone to check for himself to see if these things are true.
Thats NOT humility. Thats selective ignorance.

There is a whole 'nother world outside the tiny confines of your lil' old town in Maine.
You wrote among other things;
"If there is something in the way Pastor Stevens is or has been conducting his life that one disagrees with, one should simply move on and let God deal with anyone who may be distorting His message to His people. It is not for people, outside of the church especially, to correct a member or a Pastor inside the church. That is an internal affair and should be dealt with quietly and in private by the elders. No one else has the right to and to try to usurp that right is a sin in itself."

In fact the person of Jesus who you TOM call Lord, Lord... was none too patient with people like Carl Stevens in his day. Read the whole gospel sometime slowly and notice how Jesus reacted to relogious leaders who presented one front to the public and another face in private.
Many, many people TOM, have gone to Stevens ALONE attempting to find resolution. It did not work.
Thank God Tom we have a legal system in this country that such actions are documented.
See the Dovydenas thread.Check the Lang story. This was written prior to a major settlement your guy (Stevens) could not wait to settle and pay with the intention of keeping things quiet.
Before you "go out and win a soul".
Ask yourself what you are winning that soul to. Are you winning that soul to you church, or your pastor? Is it really about Jesus or just gaining more members for your greater grace affiliate?

God's not gonna excuse your selective ignorance.
It aint gonna work to say "I didn't know they did that Jesus!"
You are an enabler of Carl's sin as much as Bruce Brown is when you take that position.
Your bible does say to "speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves"! "Rescue those being led away.." etc.
your reading of the scriptures is soooo myopic, you only see what Carl Stevens, Bruce Brown and others want you to see.
You need to look into the faces of some of these children, (some now grown), whose families were ripped apart by the intentional actions of Stevens, and some of his pastors.
You need to check the scriptures yourself like those 'noble Bereans' from the Book of Acts, instead of swallowing the greater grace version of what they want you to think.
Have you ever heard Carl Stevens accept a dissenting opinion without infering that the person was "off" or "demonized"
WAKE UP TOM !

[twhtbs (twhtbs)]

Search4truth,

You can find the address for the Bible Speaks and a phone number by using www.anywho.com (http://www.anywho.com).

Hope this helps.

Tom

[twhtbs (twhtbs)]

Kpntreal,

Whatever you want to think is OK with me. I know I have only seen what the Holy Spirit wants me to see. I Trust Him! I hope your anger and bitterness don't cause you health problems down the road!

God Bless you and have a great day!

Tom

[search4truth (search4truth)]

twhtbs,

Thanks, I'll give it a try. I think this can be a very scary & intimidating place for a new person. Just hearing such harsh words when some of us are going through turmoil can be so damaging. Please pray for those who are struggling.

Thank you.
Search4truth

[twhtbs (twhtbs)]

search4truth,

I'm praying for all of the GGWO people, past, present, as well as all of those who are former GGWO, with all of my heart.
By the way, the only reason I'm hesitant about giving out my email address or the churches is that there are all manner of people who read these posts and some of them may not be people I or the church want to hear from. Nothing personal.

God Bless.

Tom

[kpntreal (kpntreal)]

Believe me TWHTBS it ain't bitterness.
But yes I do get a little angry when I see the abuse of Gods people.
I do get impatient when people choose to act stupid while pretending to be pious and holy like you have.

[twhtbs (twhtbs)]

kpntreal wrote:

"There is a whole 'nother world outside the tiny confines of your lil' old town in Maine."

It so happens that my "confines" include Norway, Italy, Spain, Portugal, England three times, Jamaica, Cuba, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and every state on the east coast plus a few elswhere. I work for an International Company in a building with 2000 people from all over the world. We're not "hicks in the woods" as you seem to be implying.

At 50+ years old I have seen my share of the world and then some and have a good idea of who's trying to "pull the wool over my eyes" and who's not, Thanks to the Holy Spirit.

Again, think what you want, it's a free country!

God Bless and Good day!

Tom.

[twhtbs (twhtbs)]

Kpntreal wrote:

"YOU GOTTA BE JOKIN OR ELSE YOUVE STILL BEEN SMOKIN"

And:
" Get a clue pal."

And:
"when people choose to act stupid while pretending to be pious and holy like you have"

And:
"WAKE UP TOM!"

Hmmm, sounds bitter and contentious to me!

[really (really)]

twhtbs, GOOD FOR YOU!! It is a free country. I thank God that you aren't afraid to speak the truth.

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

So glad there are those who have such a direct line of contact with God. Schaller said it this morning: "There are many voices" Re those who disagree with GG. Those voices include the CRI report,Sixty Minutes, The Boston Globe, The Boston Phoenix, The Berkshire Eagle, The Baltimore Sun, The U.S. Circuit Court, The Cult Awareness Network, and many other secular sources too numerous to name. Also ex-members including pastors,teachers,students,missionarys,youth workers,administrators,secretarys and attendees scattered over 3 decades. And now pastors/affiliate churches who organized a reform and when it was shouted down are leaving or are threatening to leave, many of whom have posted letters here. And yet Schaller admonishes the flock: "Listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit" Will everyone have to quit before you see there's a problem?

I stopped attending GGWO in November of 1993 and I can tell you that they threw all the stones. And you know what, it stinkin' hurts to get pelted with stones all the stinkin' time. Junior Stevens is quite accurate with them, steering his slander campaign and lies at those I loved most, organizing the spineless sycophant leaders to spread his venom. Dan Lewis, John Love, Scott Robinson, Michael Marr, Wayne Hogarth and many others were all major leagers when it came to destroying my reputation. It was even suggested to my wife that she should leave me and stay in the church. I'm not the only person this has happened to, It's happening now as John Love makes the rounds to the affiliates in the states, seeking a perverted "remnant" to carry on GG's work of mind control in the name of Jesus.

I love the testimonies about how TBS/GG rescued people from drugs. Do you think you were in a position to make responsible decisions regarding the future of your life in the numb afterglow of being a pot head? Do you think you were just a little vulnerable to someone's suggestion that God Almighty, Creater of Heaven and Earth, through the power of the Holy Spirit was leading little old you into the ministry of "the annointed" Junior Stevens, Maines best cookie salesman? And wasn't it interesting, all those messages about "thinking with God, the every thought process, chastisement, and not touching God's annointed" just easing into your mind. So many of us could tell the same story. Down and out and loved and lured into Juniors traveling salvation show.

Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the work of the Holy Spirit, his leading, deals primarily with the revelation of the person of Christ and his salvation. We have the Spirit, we know we are of Him. The Spirit re-awakens our faith, and gives us patience as we wait for so great a salvation. There is not one verse that says he tells us what church to go to. Or that we've left his will if we leave one and choose another.

So, when you listen to that still small voice in your head twhtbs know this, its the voice of years of indoctrination, a habit of thinking, the neuro transmitters in your brain firing in the order which they have been trained by Junior Stevens through messages, classes, tapes, and books.

Many of us on Factnet are quite in tune with the voice of the Holy Spirit by the way, just in case you thought that you and your fellow robots are the only ones. I think we could all say the same thing: when we saw so much of the teaching so out of line with the scripture (inspired by the Spirit by the way), when we saw the lies, the adulteries, the abuses of authority, the hypocracy, the markings, the skimming of money, and the damage caused to so many who simply wanted to go to another church I think the Holy Spirit spoke quite clearly. "THIS IS BAD. GET OUT."

If your going to get on here an imply that you're right and we are "stone casters" and claim the authority of a member of the Trinity, at least have the balls to post your name.

I'll go throw up now...

Jim

" A strangers voice they will not hear..."

(Message edited by jim kennedy on May 01, 2005)

[twhtbs (twhtbs)]

My Name is posted on all my posts but one. (and this one)

[twhtbs (twhtbs)]

For the record, I did not get saved in the Bible Speaks church. I was led to Christ by a Baptist minister in Portland Maine and was delivered instantly from the drugs. It was close to a year of Bible studies with the Baptist minister that I met the young man who brought me to South Berwick. I was well into the Word of God by the time I came here and if you read my original post in this thread about middle of the page you will see my name signed at the bottom.

Surprised to hear from you again, Jim. Sorry to hear about your difficulties with Pastor Stevens and others. I hope someday you'll find it in your heart to forgive those who have tresspassed against you.

God bless and Good day.

Tom

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Tom Hinkley, I apologize for that comment, although most of them just say Tom. Tom has the balls everybody! (See how easy it is to apologize Tom Schaller and GG elders)

Were you in Jamaica? If so we know each other. You should read the Jim Kennedy Consolidated Story thread. There's also a LaGracia alum thread you might be interested in.

I truly hope this will be a mind opening experience for you.

Jim

[hodeuon (hodeuon)]

Mr. Hinckley,

You raise an interesting point in your 3:38 post above:

"It is not for people, outside of the church especially, to correct a member or a Pastor inside the church. That is an internal affair and should be dealt with quietly and in private by the elders. No one else has the right to and to try to usurp that right is a sin in itself."

Where would you place those who listen to Greater Grace? They call in and ask Carl Stevens' advice on major life decisions. This includes people from other churches. I offer the Thursday, April 28 Grace Hour as an example. Since Carl Stevens is dispensing advice to churches other than his own, I think that whether it is good advice would be a matter of legitimate interest to those other churches.

Additionally, The Grace Hour had been in "damage control mode". Only one caller has alluded to any recent events in GGWO, and this call was lost due to technical difficulties. Thursday, April 14's broadcast is a good example of damage control. Carl Stevens was present in the studio.

I cannot accept the assertion that when one sees authority figures doing something wrong, one should do nothing because they outrank you. Even soldiers are taught that the proper response to an immoral order is not nothing, but rather, "Sir, would you please rephrase that in a way that I can comply with?" 1 Timothy 5:20 says to rebuke elders who sin in the presence of all. Are not outside elders & pastors appropriate people to be doing this?

Hodeuon
hodeuon at yahoo dot com

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Yes, into the "sea of forgetfulness" as Junior so loved to say in regards to all his affairs, lies, and everyone he crapped on. And there has been no repentance in case you didn't know. you might want to read Ma.18:15-17 because that is exactly what is happening here on Factnet, GG lies perpetually about what is happening and this is the source of reality that was non-existant at the time I left. Kind of hard to spin a lie when there's so many witnesses here.

"The truth will set you free" That's why we're all here on Factnet. There are so many confused, outcast, dissilusioned people out there Tom. And I can forgive you for your glib admonitions about forgiveness, you haven't been through what I have, and I hope you never will. But it doesn't matter if I've forgiven him or not, I think he's got bigger problems than that. God has a special place for "all liars." Keyword: All

Jim

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Tom,

Being in a branch ministry, you probably wouldn't have any insite on what is going on in Balt. But if you read through alot of the trash that has been posted on FN, you will see what has and is going on.
Most of us are former member, I left just a month ago. We are operating within our right to bring leadership into accountability. There have been countless private meeting with leadership and many letters from the affiliated ministries for CHS and the new leadership to repent and make a clean start. It has all been rejected, and people that are for the changes are being slandered maligned and marked.

Check here http://s10.invisionfree.com/DiscussGGWO/index.php?showforum=13 for a consolidated archive of what has been posted on FACTNet.

I felt the same way as you until the leadership in Balt started doing some really odd this that opened my eyes and mind to start asking questions. The training we all received for years forbid us to ask or question what was anointed of God. The Holy Spirit will reveal little by little to you. Learning all this stuff at once can be quite a shock.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Really,
There is much truth on here, thank God for all that weren't afraid to speak it.
God bless the USA http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[anova (anova)]

ericlaw,

I did not realize that you left GG just a month ago! God bless you, that's awesome. Having left just a month ago, you're taking in a heck of a lot more truth than I was able to handle one month out.

Glad you're posting.


Anovus

[yogi (yogi)]

Tom you might be interested to know that Bob Brown and Bob White signed the Sandy Cove document which was OVERTURNED by P. Stevens and P. Schaller! Where exactly do you think they stand now that they've seen the duplicity firsthand? Perhaps you'd better ask P. Brown...

Please don't use spiritual rationalization to justify the corruption at the top of GGWO. Just some things to consider and pray about,

yogi

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Am I mistaken... I thought Pastor Bruce Brown was one of the 84 pastors who have disaffiliated?

TH, I was in TBS in So. Berwick, Lenox and Baltimore. You might remember me, I was one of CHS secretaries and Mike Erwin was one of his "ballplayers". We've been gone a long time (close to 15 years). While some in here are bitter ... the main thing is that like you, many of us love the Lord Jesus and were in the ministry a long time. However, what started as very sweet, turned very very unChristlike very quickly.

Don't let the "bitterness" turn you away from the truth. Many in here have been turned on viciously and slandered horrifically. This was not the Christ that I accepted in 71, nor his teaching.

CHS will always be Mike and my "spiritual father"... however when his teaching goes against the Holy Spirit and my precious Lord, thee is nothing we can do except call a spade a spade.

Some are not bitter... we are over that. Just saddened that a sweet life before the Lord has turned so very bad.

God bless you. I believe 84 affiliate pastors, and one of them being your pastor Bruce Brown, have recently disaffiliated. Ask Bruce.

Peace. If you want to contact Mike and I, feel free. merwin1@tampabay.rr.com.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Anovus,
Yes we have left the plaza. Thank you for your concern and prayers. We are doing well, visitng churches and praising God for His great grace (pardon the pun)

[search4truth (search4truth)]

I also know that Pastor Bruce Brown has dis-affiliated. His church is no longer listed on the GGWO web site.

Take care.
search4truth

(Message edited by search4truth on May 01, 2005)

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

I think some of the humor and comments on here could be seen as bitter to somone checking in for the first time. I think for alot of us it's an outlet for getting over fear: I can speak against "the ministry" and "God's annointed" and I'm not dead, my tongue hasn't fallen out and I'm not living under some kind of curse.

The GG slant on certain issues is quite frankly blasphemous and draws a negative response from many of us. Hitting the congregation with a "blanket" concept of forgiveness to cover their own lies and indiscretions is one of them. It cheapens what Jesus did on the cross. Most of us believe in "eternal security", rightly so, but there are enough warnings in the epistles to jolt any believer out of abusing that priveledge. I read 1 and 2 Peter last week and frankly it's scary.

When I confronted Junior with the issue of slander his answer was: "you should have instantly forgiven me." He did not say "I'm sorry for ruining your reputation and busting up all your friendships and publicly slandering you when you did absolutely nothing to me." Apparently "forgive as you have been forgiven" applies to me in my relationship to him but does not apply to him in any of his relationships with those who dare to challenge him. GG seems to be carrying on with that "legacy."

Speaking of forgiveness, a thought which came to me while eating a Sacko's sub and navy bean soup:
Doesn't repentance precede forgiveness? God forgave me, but I had to repent first. How many of us do that daily? And I am to forgive as I have been forgiven. I have received no repentance from Junior or anyone representing GG. In the parable of the wicked servant, he asked the master for forgiveness. When asked for forgiveness by a fellow servant he refused, and because of that he was made to pay. I don't see it as automatic. In the same chapter he states those who refuse to repent are to be regarded as a "heathen and a publican." Repentance first, then forgiveness. Otherwise there would be no final judgement and no hell, everyone would be "instantly forgiven."

GGWO refuses to repent for anything they have done, including the trashing of the Sandy Cove reforms and those who continue to support them. They are unrepentant, and therefore in the minds of many unforgiven. Their eternal state is in the hands of God, who knows their genetics, experience, motives, and actions.

If you're new here you may have to do some sifting, but the truth about what GG really is can be found here. Along with alot of wisdom and eye witness testimony from some people who have been through it. And we're not only here for those who are exiting, we're here to help each other in our recovery and the songs, jokes, anger, tears and comments about bad hair pieces are all a part of that.

Jim

[twhtbs (twhtbs)]

To All,

I know all about the Sandy Cove event and the 80+ Pastors,(Mine included) who were there. I know a lot more than I have told you or will tell you.

I know many people are hurt, angered, bitter, etc. Maybe even some of it is legitamate. If so that is between you and whoever. That is not my issue.

Baltimore has problems, there is no denying that.

My issue is simply this:
Jesus Christ is Lord. My focus is on Him. If this church or that church wants to "disaffiliate" with GGWO it is their prerogative. That is between them and God. The reason South Berwick has disaffiliated from GGWO is to stay out of the fray. Pastor Stevens is not our Pastor, he is the Pastor of the Baltimore Body, (or was, whatever the case may be.)

Didn't Jesus Pray in (Matt.6:12) -
"And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." In other translations it says "forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us." What part of f-o-r-g-i-v-e don't you understand?

I only want to know Jesus. I don't know and won't know, any man after the flesh. I have no desire to argue over whether Pastor Stevens did right or wrong. I am only trying to say that if he did, it is between him and the ones he wronged, it should not be aired on the internet for the entire world to see. To think that someone would have the audacity to uncover a brother in the Lord, even if he is in a fallen state is simply unthinkable to me. Kick him when he's down. That's it!

I found this site by accident and began reading it just a few days ago, out of curiousity. I was looking for something completely different and came across this.

I was appalled at the strife, argumentativeness, anger and bitterness. I have not seen or heard any of what you speak of in Pastor Stevens in the 29 years I've been involved with the church. I have seen joy, peace, patience, understanding, and an abundance of other characteristics that reveal he was in tune with the Holy Spirit.

I'm sorry if some of you are hurt, I'll pray for healing. I'm sorry if some of you feel betrayed, I'l pray for you, too. I'm sorry if some of you feel it's necessary to air GGWO dirty laundry on the internet, I'll pray for you.

I am taught by the Word of God:
Matthew 5:44 -
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you."

And that's what I intend to do.

God Bless and have a great week!

Tom

[twhtbs (twhtbs)]

Oh and by the way Jim Kennedy, Yes that was me in Jamaica but we only know each other by name. Two weeks of running around the Island doing this and that was hardly enough to get to know each other.

Perhaps we'll get to do that in eternity!
Good Night.

Tom

[buggin (buggin)]

Tom H.
I have read your postings and am struck by the inconsistencies of your logic.

'I was appalled at the strife, argumentativeness, anger and bitterness. I have not seen or heard any of what you speak of in Pastor Stevens in the 29 years I've been involved with the church. I have seen joy, peace, patience, understanding, and an abundance of other characteristics that reveal he was in tune with the Holy Spirit.'

So by your own admission TH
you have never been part of the Baltimore experience.
Even with all those nice Bible verses,
You unwittingly admit you dont know what your'e talking about?.

Now let me play your game of who can come up with the most righteous Bible quote, (if thats possible)
From the book of Ezekial,
He saw the distress of those abandoned by their shepherds,
Did he preach to them " GET RIGHT and FORGIVE!" ?

I dont think so.

Instead it says "I sat where they sat"
Without saying a word, he put himself in their position.
Highly unusual these days (and back then)
Pretty profound in that here was a preacher who could actually empathize with the suffering of the flock instead of 'preparing a message' to preach at them.
Your turn.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

I hardly know where to begin.

Tom, I have known Carl Stevens since 1972. He is a serial liar, a slanderer, a maligner, he loves adulation and openly promotes it, he has covered up adultery and he has misused funds--that's just a start--and he has a drug problem. Now you can shout hearsay all you like--there is plenty of evidence. The fact is that Carl Stevens has not met the biblical qualifications to fill a pulpit before the people of God for many years.

This is not JUST between him and God when he gets into a pulpit claiming to be God's anointed man.

Read this very carefully Tom, since you, like so many other GG'ers DEMAND forgiveness but refuse to show any:

1 Tim. 3:2-7 (ESV)
Therefore an overseer <u><font color="ff0000">must be</font></u> above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, [3] not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. [4] He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, [5] for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? [6] He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, <font color="ff0000">so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil</font>.


WE ARE ON THE OUTSIDE, TOM. WE DON'T, NOR DO MANY OTHERS, THINK WELL OF CARL STEVENS FOR MANY GOOD REASONS!

Carl Stevens, and many others inside GG are NOT above reproach. They need to step down. You need to wake up. Read the Alan Lang story. If you can do that and not weep, you are stone cold dead.

somebonus@yahoo.com

210-602-0213

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Oh yeah, and Tom, while you're at it--ask Pastor Bruce Brown how he is able in his mind to eschew unbiblical marking and avoiding as a signer of the Sandy Cove Declaration <font color="ff0000">YET HE INSISTS ON MARKING AND AVOIDING HIS OWN BROTHER IN LAW--NEITHER HE OR HIS WIFE NANCY HAVE SO MUCH AS SPOKEN TO HIM IN OVER A DECADE. THEY INSIST THAT HE BOW DOWN TO STEVENS BEFORE THEY WILL EVEN TALK TO HIM. HOW BIBLICAL IS THAT? SMELLS HYPOCRITICAL TO ME, BROTHER.</font>

[j_graz (j_graz)]

One of the issues that continues to rise to the top in these threads deals with whether or not something is between an individual, or a church and their Lord. This is an incredibly shallow way to view personal integrity.
Our decisions do effect many more people than we can imagine. Does anyone really think they live in a sanitary bubble, no one gets hurt by what I do, or effected? It's all just me and God?

It was so important to Christ that we recognize this - our lives effect others - that he instructed us to attempt reconciliation even if we are the accused!
This why Christ said "Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift."...if your brother has something against you...make an effort - your life is effecting him.

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

j_graz....please read the star wars thread...i left a message for you...

[anova (anova)]

j-graz,

A huge AMEN to your above 11:32pm posting!


Anovus

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

DAVE'S TOP TEN REASONS WHY IT IS OK TO DISCERN WHILE FORGIVING

1. I can forgive until the cows come home (7x70). However, I can discern while I am forgiving. If I don't discern then I am a slave/victim in a toxic and unhealthy relationship. My silence (let God deal with him) only encourages and enables my abuser to continue the destructive pattern. IT IS OK TO DISCERN WHILE FORGIVING!

2. Did not Jesus discern the wickedness of the elders and the Roman soldiers? They were wicked and cruel. While HE discerned their condition HE cried out,"Father, forgive them, they don't know what they are doing." It is OK to discern while forgiving. The exhortation in Ephesians 4.15 to forgive others as God forgave us because of Christ is not a free pass clause for the unconfessed sin of the errant party. Many here have forgiven but discerned the wicked and cruel bahavior of CHS and his loyalists. IT IS OK TO DISCERN WHILE FORGIVING!

3. When people trespass against me God uses this experience to teach me how to forgive. He also uses the experience to teach me how to discern. Forgiveness and discernment are the indicators of a maturing believer. Joseph forgave but he also called his brothers' behavior wicked. He was forgiving and discerning. His painful experience of his brothers' trespassing against him taught him forgiveness and discernment. Can we not do the same? Of course we can and we are!
IT IS OK TO DISCERN WHILE FORGIVING!

4. Yes, of course we become more like Christ when we forgive. However, we also become more like Christ when we discern. Forgivenss frees me and teaches me to be discerning. Many here have forgiven CHS and GG. And, they are using their discernment to warn other believers from being used and abused. IT IS OK TO DISCERN WHILE FORGIVING!

5.God is using the many hurts and sorrows of ex-members to become their greatest ministry to those who need it. So many were ashamed for being duped, but by speaking we are being used by God to inform and warn. He is taking our greatest sorrow and using it to help many leave. I bless HIM tonight for HIS Sovereign control over my life (even the parts I regret) He is using it for the good. IT IS OK TO DISCERN WHILE FORGIVING!

6. Friends, please don't try to use the forgiveness card to trump my discernment. Shame and guilt doesn't cut it with me. I traded the disappointment of CHS' unfinished work and lesser grace message of shame and works years ago for the real joy of the LORD. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. IT IS OK TO DISCERN WHILE FORGIVING!

7. Factnet can be messy. So what? Life is messy and unscripted. Welcome to relationships 101 apart from GG/TBS spin. It can get messy but it is worth the understanding. If you are searching you will find the answers. And, I have found that Factnet offers forgiveness and discernment for those who are searching. Because, we have been there too. IT IS OK TO DISCERN WHILE FORGIVING!

8. Besides, if two people agree on everything, then one of them isn't necessary. Why do so many in GG insist on absolute agreement on everything? Because, they learned this behavior from their spiritual father. IT IS OK TO DISCERN WHILE FORGIVING!

9. I may just be a horse's rear-end, but at least I can see that trend in myself. The leaders in GG can't see their own stinkin' faults, yet they point out others'. Have you ever wondered why? It is called arrogance and deception. Many have discerned their arrogance and hypocrisy. IT IS OK TO DISCERN WHILE FORGIVING!

10. If there are five people in a room and four of them are calling you a hypocrite...chances are you are a hypocrite. CHS and his loyalists are hypocrites. I forgive them, But I also discern their hypocrisy. And, by the very nature of the office they are accountable to the church for their actions and unrepentant behavior. (James 3, Matthew 18 &amp; I Timothy 5) IT IS OK TO DISCERN WHILE FORGIVING!

For Him,
Dave

(Message edited by Dave Drago on May 02, 2005)

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Beautiful, correct and true to the Word of God, Dave. Thank you for those thoughts...

They were Godly wisdom at its best!!!

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Psalm 58 is one of my favorite passages on forgiveness...

What part of GET-OUT-OF-THAT-CULT don't you understand?

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Tom H - your studies seems to have left you a bit out of balance in your dietary needs. GGWO preaches "The whole counsel of God's Word," but either selectively quates, or worse still, selectively applies.

There are GREATER PROBELMS than GREATER GRACE. Stevens has slndered people, told lies, commited mutliple adutries, covered others adutlries only to expose them when it has been to his advantage. He has used and abused his own sons, and then selected Tom Schaller whois in his hip pocket when he could not contorl his own sons!

Hmmm, smell the coffee Tom. BTW your comment about health was very typically CHS control tactics!

Finally, we are told to be angry (Eph 4:26) if the anger becomes bitterness it would be sin. But if it is directed towards righting wrongs it is not! There are people on here who have been marked for going to CHS alone and addressing things.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

For those who are having difficulty finding certain information, an archive has be created on DiscussGGWO. Documents are listed alphabetically.

www.DiscussGGWO.org (http://www.DiscussGGWO.org)

[arguendo (arguendo)]

This is what I want to know:

Why does Pilgy have a gun?

[arguendo (arguendo)]

384 posts? what the heck have I been writing?

[anova (anova)]

Who is Pilgy?

[arguendo (arguendo)]

darlin, don't be obtuse. If I wanted you to know I would have told you.

[anova (anova)]

Arguendo,

386 posts and you are still as droll, elusive, witty, cruel, mysterious, unfathomable and fascinating as always.

You are the Greta Garbo of FactNet.

Anovus

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

I can just hear Arg saying, "I'm afraid of nothing except being bored."

[anova (anova)]

anon-brief,

If I didn't know you in "the ministry," I missed out.


Anovus

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

anovus... get a grip! arguendo despises your fawning.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Bonjour, Vérité.

J'espère que vous êtes bon ce matin?

Je suis heureux de vous voir ici encore.

Votre ami,

AB

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

merci bien AB

dit moi, tu es en europe quelque pars ? sinon, il fait un peu tôt, non ?

amicalment, CLV

[arguendo (arguendo)]

To the contrary, CLV. Anovus made me nostalgic. I had a teacher in the 9th grade say almost the same thing to me.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Verité,

Non, je suis aux USA. It was quite late. I prefer to work on projects throughout the night when it is peaceful.

For some reason, it is comforting to know that there are other people far away who are awake when we are asleep. Odd thought, isn't it?

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Kind of llike the old slogan, "You can sleep well tonight, your National Guard is awake." Kudos Boss man!!

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

arguendo,

what exactly did he say ? that you were droll, elusive, witty, cruel, mysterious, unfathomable and fascinating or just that you reminded him of greta garbo ? i mean, i'm not sure that that is exactly appropriate to say to a ninth grade girl even though i'm sure its true...

(Message edited by C_la_verite on May 03, 2005)

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Ah, he essentially said what anova said but it ended with, "But you're lazy academically."

Still am.

[anova (anova)]

I'm sure you had a quick rejoinder.

What was it?

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

anon_brief,

i hear you. i often fall asleep thinking about what must be going on in different parts of the world...

[anova (anova)]

CLV,

Shame on you.

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Tom, apology accepted. I read yours now I hope you'll read mine.

I am a man of God, and God has chosen me to deal with it. All of us are, we are all God's children and we are all men and women of God. Even GG teaches we are members of His body. The Holy Spirit speaks to all of us.

We are speaking out about problems that have existed in GG for decades. During that time many, many, people have gone to Pastor and then to "elders" in a Godly way, only to have their character asassinated and their reputations ruined. Families have been divided over it. Others who chose to leave quietly suffered the same treatment. None of this solved any of the problems. There has been a "no talk rule" at GG, and it has been strictly enforced.

This forum has done much to change that. In the last 2 years many have left, many are leaving now. The ministry can no longer put a spin on why these people have quit, or get away with slander, or disinformation to try to control the situation. If you were in Baltimore you would know what the elders are saying about the affiliates who are leaving, then you can read their letters here and it's a completely different story. They can no longer lie about it, it's out in the open.

"In the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses every word may be established...In a multitude of counselors there is safety." If a ministry or a leader get "off", if they teach false doctrines, if they live in sin and cover it up, if they lie about who they really are, if they operate their church in an unbiblical manner, ultimately God will stop them. I guess an asteroid could land at Frankford Plaza on a Sunday morning during the International Convention, that would stop things pretty quickly. But it appears that God is using other methods. Factnet. www.carlstevens.org (http://www.carlstevens.org). The affiliate ministries. The Sandy Cove meeting. God is using His people to bring change Tom. It is a work of the Holy Spirit.

There are a lot of people who have forgiven and prayed and swallowed their pride and have gone above and beyond anything that you could imagine concerning forgiveness. Some of us don't post that because we don't believe the right hand should know what the left is doing. But the facts remain, the ministry is corrupt, has a history of fraud and deception, is in error concerning their teaching on authority and the "annointing" of their pastor, and has therefore departed from the faith. The women and men of God here on Factnet have told the truth about that and it has helped so many to see the light about GG. It is a work of God. And God will forgive us if our flesh gets in the way of His purpose. God is breaking up Greater Grace World Outreach Tom. It's never going to be the same.

Now my turn to apologize. I really thought alot about what you said. I'm sorry for the times my flesh has gotten in the way and I've engaged in a petty arguement because my pride got stung. And if I crossed the line in what God wanted me to say I'm sorry for that too. I wouldn't want to make someone who needs help getting out stumble.

But the facts remain, my testimony is factual and my accounts of abuses are eyewitness. And so it is with so many of us on Factnet.

"There's a time to speak..."

Jim wokbts@aol.com

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Excellent post Jim! Thanks.. It is time to speak and many are...

[newface (newface)]

Tom I hear what you are saying. There has not been a lot of connection between some of the affiliates and Baltimore. This has probably been our saving grace. We have to be careful to think, and question and use our brains and not follow the herd as far as our faith goes. Please don't lose your own ability to evaluate and discern what is truth and what isn't. God can overcome all of it but in the case of Baltimore there has to be humility and willingness to listen to God. I think that is not present. Hope all is well with the South Berwick crew. I am praying also and thinking and evaluating. It's the right thing to do. God bless

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Tom - Excellent post. I am glad you ar ehere, and I am glad you are going to pray about the things Jim has posted.

Also consider what Newface posted, branch members are very "sheltered" from a lot of Baltimoe "stuff."

I was a missioanry, and pastored in branch ministries. But, it was not until I came to Baltimore and went on staff in 93 that I "saw" what was going on.

Got there just in time to see Jin Kennedy (you can read his "personal observations) s _ _ t on by CHS, "B"XV, and others. Over time I have heard (first hand BTW from CHS' own mouth to my ears) a number of men and women whom I love dearly slandered with proven lies. Even went to CHS about it and got a blank stare.

Yes Tom, some things on here may be second hand and hear-say, but most of it is first hand witnessed events.

CHS has sinned publically, and needs to repent the same way. Maybe he no longer has the mental capapcity to know right from wrong, okay. But for TS and others to continue with the status quo is even more ludicrous, they were at Sandy COve, they agreed then, and went back and "sucked up" to CHS and each other to maintain the kingdom. For these "men?" to repudiate SC and attack the men who are standing by SC, is SIN! And it is public!

Well guess what? Jim Fawcett, Dave Drago, Jim Kennedy, Boss Martian, myself, and many, many others, are men that God HAS raised up for this moment in history. BTW, also more than a few women! Even though many in the camp would doubt that God still raises up Deborah's and Jael's, let me assure you that he does!

Please Tom, do pray, but also, read more. There are many revalatory stories on here. There is also some negative vomiting! But you know what, that is the "Body's" way of getting rid of sickneess. You can read how people have softened as th poisons have been expelled from their being.

Blessings,

ralph
1Cor 15:10

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Tom,
You wrote:

<font color="0000ff">the majority of my years as a Christian have been spent sitting under Pastor Bruce Brown who is an extremely humble, meek, and sincere Christian. He spends hours upon hours studying the scripture and praying for the Holy Spirits guidance. </font>

Please ask this humble, meek, sincere Christian who has signed the Sandy Cove Declaration which condemns unbiblical marking and avoiding and promotes biblical church discipline why he will not be reconciled to his own brother-in-law.

You wrote:
<font color="0000ff">In my twenty nine years as a Christian, I have spent a total of two years hearing Pastor Stevens on a regular basis so as I said before, I can't speak for or against his doctrine.</font>

If you have really listened to a man for two years on a regular basis--how is it that you remain without an opinion or conviction? What did you hear exactly? I listened to him for many years and thought, like many others that he was God's anointed man on earth, that when he spoke God spoke through him. Know what? I was wrong.

You wrote:
<font color="0000ff">All I am saying, by posting on this forum, is that if someone is NOT one of the people God has chosen to deal with any discrepncies or errors on Pastors part, than they should not be discussing it.</font>

God has made us all believer priests. He has given us all the responsibility of hearing him and reading his word. We are to evaluate what we hear:
Acts 17:11 (ESV)
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

We are all called to expose evil:

Ephes. 5:11 (ESV)
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

What is more evil than someone making himself out to be someone 'unique' and 'special' or 'anointed above others' when God has not done that? What is more evil than to preach against a thing and then to do it yourself claiming you have license from God?

If the process outlined in Matt. 18, Gal. 6:1, etc. has been followed then these matters are open to be declared to the church. That is what you see happening here.

In twenty-nine years you've heard nothing? The covering up of things has worked fairly well, I'd say.

[yogi (yogi)]

Ralph,

You're such a nice guy.
I'm glad you came here to FACTNet!

yogi

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Aw shucks Yogerino.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

BTW, you remember who Jael was, right? She is the one who nailed Sisera's head to the tent floor with a wooden tent peg through the temple! He, he, he! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Tom H - Don't know who you are but I hope you realize that you are welcome. Hope you realize that people will not just accept what you say without responding. -

Just because CHS tells you that he's spending "hours upon hours studying the scriptures," does not make it so. As you said...if you have not seen it first hand you really do not know. What you seem not to have realized while reading many of the posts is that there are so many of us who actually have first hand experiences regarding many of the things reported here.

You state: <font color="0000ff">When Jesus looked down from the hill upon the city of Jerusalem when they were full of hypocrisy and Pharisee-ism and all manner of other sin, “Jesus wept.” Why? Because he loved them. And then He went to Calvary! I will weep in prayer, with Jesus, for ALL His children who are hurting in this dark hour in Greater Grace history. </font><font color="000000"> Sorry...I'm sure you didn't intend it to come across this way, but it sure sounds "holier than thou" - chances are that you ARE better than many of us old reprobates here on FN, but I'm sure that you would admit that you might not know what our experiences have been or what we know. You are free to practice your religious life as you feel compelled to do... but please don't assume that you know what is best for the rest. So, if you are praying "that God will have HIS way" - let HIM! Maybe He already is having HIS way -- don't screw it up with your own opinion about what that means for other people.

PLEASE understand that my tone is not angry, not sarcastic...just matter of fact. You can and should follow your path, as others need to follow theirs.</font>

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Hmmm, CHS always said it was alright to criticize things that are written or stated pubically. I have always wondered why that meant/means as long as it is not CHS' writings or tapes???

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

This forum is an opportunity for many who were in the cult called GGWO to expose it. The cult once named 'The Bible Speaks' and now named 'Greater Grace World Outreach' always was and still is a cult that uses the Holy Bible and Jesus' precious message of salvation to take advantage of people.

I am not bitter. I don't feel hatred for the charlatans who lead GGWO. I do feel relief to have a place to state the truth about GGWO. I even had some resentments that have been fully patched up through reading the posts of people sharing their Christ filled hearts with all of us on this discussion board.

For many years, I never knew quite where people stood in their participation in the cult. Many have come to factnet and shared their stories. It is has helped me to reconcile myself to my past. I find it extraordinary that something that happened so long ago had such a profound affect on me. God has not only used this board to expose a cult but He has used it to help so many of us heal in unfathomable ways.

My prayer for people still in and those newly gone from GGWO is that they will get deprogrammed and find their way back to God. If one does not acknowledge that they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed how to they not become fodder for the next cultish person or group that crosses their path. I pray for all those involved in this cult to find their own walk with God.

[jack_leonard (jack_leonard)]

Tom has not heard anything negative in 29 years. I believe him. What we are hearing is conclusive proof that Carl Stevens has been able to control the information flow for 29 years – but no longer!

[jack_leonard (jack_leonard)]

Tom also pointed out that Carl Stevens cannot hurt anyone any longer. Why kick a man when he’s down? I have wondered about this as well. Here are my reasons.
1. It didn’t do much good to kick him when he was up, because, frankly, he was powerful and could rant and rave and convince people that we were all demonized conspirators. However, no one else in Baltimore has this power.
2. We are not just kicking Carl; we are kicking out the bars of our prisons, the lies that held us prisoner for so long. We are kicking out the threats (cancer of the tongue, for example) and letting the sun shine in.
3. Our kicks are attracting attention and believers such as Tom as sitting up and taking notice. Some, who have lived in a prison for a long time are daring to come out.
4. I am most concerned about the suggestion that we just let believers blithely go on believing the best about Carl Stevens. This would be OK if Carl preached a pure message, if we could just walk away with the message and not worry about the behavior. He didn’t. A man cannot effectively preach what he does not live. Sooner or later, he must twist the doctrines, emphasize this and de-emphasize that to justify his lifestyle. We heard another Gospel. We need to say so.

[jack_leonard (jack_leonard)]

Is it ever right to kick a man at all? Should we just pray?
Perhaps we should ask, "Is it ever right to publicly call a man a hypocrite, a snake, a viper, a serpent, a whited sepulchre, a child of hell, a fool, or a liar?"
I think we know the answer to that.

[daved (daved)]

On Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 9:34 pm:
out_of_it [aka Tom] says:

<font color="ff0000">>>>
All the time spent writing a lot of the posts on these pages would be much better spent doing things like soul-winning, praying, studying, worshipping and praising our Almighty Father.

Father in Heaven, we adore you.
We lift your Holy Name!
>>></font>

Tom,

What Holy Name are you lifting up?

daved

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Tom - thank God there are people like my wife and I who decided on a Saturday that "enough is enough." And we were in another Church on Sunday. But there are many on here who,, for whatever reason, cannot do that. And you know what, that is alright with God! We all heal at different rates. You sound like a few (thank God only a few) pastors in GG who would tell someone who was grieving for a loved one who died, "You just have to get over it and go on with God." What tripe!!! Everyone heals at their own speed.

I agree with Jack, if you saw nothing wrong in 29 years you are a testimony to exactly why we are on here on FactNet, spiritual blindness! It is not "Not hearing and evill report." No it is spirtual blindness.

Why has it ALWAYS been alright to talk about other ministers sins, but not his? Why has it ALWAYS been alright for him to gossip and tell lies about other people, but not talk about him.

You know what Tom, he is JUST A MAN, and that is why he did not want people to say that. It puts you in a postion to evaulate rather than simply swallow the things he says.

And one final thing Tom, if you say you have not heard or seen anything in 29 years, I would have to say that you are dearf and blind, otherwise I forced to conclude that you are a liar, because Stevens has attacked, slandered, and run down people from the pulpit for a lot longer than 29 years!

PS - hope everyone will take time to add ap rayer to the Prayer Day thread.

Blessings,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Tom wrote:

<font color="0000ff">I refuse to ask P. Brown about that as it is between him and Joel. I have my own irreconcilable family differences to deal with.</font>

The Sandy Cove declaration is a document which was made PUBLIC, much for the benefit for and by the instigation of some of us on this board! Your pastor signed that document! In it he eschews unbiblical marking and avoiding and commits himself to biblical church discipline. One of the marks of a pastor is that he should be above reproach. That means that he comes under scrutiny by those on the outside. TRY reading that qualification here:

1 Tim. 3:7 (ESV)
Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

Tom, we are on the outside. We are not thinking well of him for this very reason: What he has SAID does NOT line up with what he DOES. I am sure you will not get it. You have no idea how well indoctrinated you are.

I wrote:
<font color="ff0000">Ephes. 5:11 (ESV)
Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.</font>

To which Tom responded:

<font color="0000ff">My Answer:
If we are privy to it.
The church in Baltimore is indigenous. Even though there are many churches that are/were affiliated with it, we were not members of it. Yes, we are members of the Universal Body of Christ and we share many of the same beliefs with Baltimore, and many common bonds but we have that same thing with members of other Christian churches as well. If I was a Baptist or Assembly of God believer and someone told me some of the things going on in Baltimore I would not and could not get involved with trying to expose the evildoer because I’m not a member, unless I was somehow directly privy to it. (I have never been a member of the church at GGWO in Baltimore.) If I were directly privy to it, I would not go to a public forum and start posting it.</font>

If we are privy to it??? Adding a little to the scriptures there aren't you? IF in the process of Matt. 18 the last step is reached when that individual is declared to the church to be like a publican to whom is that declaration made? IT IS TO THE WORLD, because we are to be like a city on a hill, observable by all. Our behavior ought not to give the world, enemies of Christ, more opportunities to blaspheme. I would warn anyone against joining GGWO and those who remain affiliated with it just as strenuously as I would advise against joining the Mormons.

The church in Baltimore is indigenous? Here's a dictionary definition of that word:

indigenous
adj : originating where it is found

Sorry. The church in Baltimore was imported from Lenox, when a thousand plus sycophants followed Carl Stevens to Baltimore. It is an import. It did not originate in Baltimore.

Many of you guys misuse this word. What you mean is that the church in Baltimore is autonomous. That is up for debate. It seems to exercise not a small degree of influence on other churches. Ask John Gardner how 'indigenous or autonomous' the church in Pittsfield was. You guys are not Baptists nor are you part of AoG. Both those organizations have defined processes for disciplining error. Yours does not, never has had. That is why there is so much discord. That is why there are people posting on FN.

The verse I quoted does not have the qualifiers that you chose to impose on it. You have chosen to add to the scriptures. You come from a tradition which has a habit of doing just that. You need to reconsider those habits.


The necessity of the public forum, Tom, is because there has been such revision of the truth (see the infamous 'timeline' on the GG website) over the years, and such artful covering up and disinformation accompanied by slander and maligning (see the Alan Lang story) that private approach of the individual culprits has been made impossible. It is not for any small reason that CHS has armed security surrounding him.

Your take on "we're all unique" is pure obfuscation, Tom, and you know it. What is being perpetrated at GGWO is that their particular brand of Christianity is not just 'different' it is SUPERIOR. By the way Tom, the gospel is the gospel. Has been for eons, since Gen.3 as a matter of fact. If your gospel is 'different' or 'superior' as in 'Greater' Grace where the doctrine is arrived at through 'precise academics'--hadn't you ought to be careful that you don't preach 'another' gospel and end up anathema?

Time to wake up and smell the coffee, Tom.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Tom you wrote:

<font color="0000ff">“I can't speak for or against his doctrine.”</font>

Then you wrote later:
<font color="0000ff">“Who said I didn’t have an opinion or a conviction?”</font>

Who said? Well, Tom, you did actually! Help me out here someone who understands the plain meaning of the English language. If I have an opinion concerning a point of view or presentation of doctrine, or if I hold convictions concerning that doctrine—wouldn’t that mean necessarily that I was for or against it? If I am ambivalent concerning the doctrine after seventeen months either the presentation is unintelligible or esoteric or I’m not listening—if I am ambivalent and can speak neither for or against a thing then I am of no opinion or conviction, right? Help me out here Tom, if you have a conviction or opinion concerning Carl Stevens doctrine which you sat under for 17 months were you for or against it? Stop tap dancing and attempting to redefine the plain English meaning of words.

[minutus (minutus)]

Or you can keep sleeping and "pull a vacuum over the beans." I think biblical reality beats a vacuum over the beans every time.

Churches may be independent, but they are not beyond scrutiny by other believers when their actions blaspheme the name of Christ before the world.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

A vacuum created by beans leads to flatulence.

[anova (anova)]

JF,

That is SO true!

[anova (anova)]

minutus,

Did Schaller REALLY use those EXACT words? "pull a vacuum over the beans"?!

[minutus (minutus)]

Anovus,

Sorry, it was "on the beans." From TS letter to affiliates:

"I think we need the face-to-face encounters. Though I know we use the phrase with familiarity, it is definitely evident that we all struggle with the tendency for subjective "jumping to conclusions mentalities". We suffer tremendously from the air that comes between us. S.C. helps pull the vacuum on the coffee beans. No air between us and this because God is between us. Imagine how Pastor taught… we think no evil. How many conferences have we attended where air was gone? How many congregations are living with God's power motivating people and stirring us to great things? No air is my thought."

http://www.factnet.org/factnetcgi/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&amp;post=142736#POST142736

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Tom - AS to the "thing" P. Brown and Joel, it was slander by CHS. And P Bron and Nancy decided (as many have) that Pastah Teacha bond is thicker than bloood. BTW, CHS lied about Joel from his pulpit here in Baltimreo several times as well as on radio.

Jim - for Tom as well as many, the coffee pot has not even been put on yet.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

<font color="0000ff">"My Answer:
Jim, when I said I can't speak for or against his doctrines" I was saying I don't know what all his doctrines are. I have not sat under his teaching since 1984. He hasn't been my Pastor.</font>

Flippin' 'eck, man! You don't have to know ALL his doctrines to have an opinion or to be able to speak for or against the ones you DO know about.

Willful ignorance is bliss, no?

[ski (ski)]

I am with you, Tom, about Carl Stevens. There are no problems in a number of doctrines Stevens preached. His ministry made me to take a spep toward Jesus. Basically it always looked as God praising ministry untill it touched relationships with other churches, untill you were getting in the inner circles (even at the local church), untill you became a part of Gods plan, geographic will of God and Divine Design.
From the outside it is great christian church with evelasting revival. From the inside it is a money making organisation with christianity as a sub-product.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Tom - even twenty plus years ago CHS WAS attacking people from the pulpit. But you are living evdence of how many totally bought into the "hear no evil report."http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif Thank God you are out. But there are several hundred still in who are buying the lie. Some of them are family, many (most) are dear friends, we are our brothers keeper, or we do not know Jesus in intimacy.

Over the years CHS has not only not gone after those who have left, he has prevented otehrs frmo doing it. Now there are enough out that we are going after those who are trapped within.

Blessings,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

CHS does not preach the biblical gospel, but one centered on man. He does not preach real grace, but an antinomian cheap version of it. He does not teach biblical Christian living but a convoluted system of works and performance leading to literalistic 'rewards' some of which are centered on his participation--i.e. bema seat presentation, tree of life 'rap' etc.

[daved (daved)]

out_of_it said:

>>>
Bet you thought I would say Yahweh, Huh?
I never bought into that Jehovah/Yahweh argument
I always thought that whole argument was trivial
because My God does not care what I call Him as long as I call Him.
>>>

out_of_it,

You say: "My God does not care what I call Him as long as I call Him."

However your Pastor's Pastor
[i.e. Pastor Carl Stevens]
does care what name you call God.

And Pastor Carl Stevens states that his ministry is a "preciseness" ministry,
and that at the Bema Seat Evaluation,
YOU will be held responsible for NOT calling God by his correct name
[i.e. "Yahweh" according to GGWO]
EVEN IF YOU NEVER HEARD PASTOR CARL STEVENS PREACH IT.

out_of_it

Of course even if Pastor Carl Stevens is correct
you will not lose your salvation, however you will suffer loss,
for not agreeing with a "preciseness' ministry,
that has taught that God's name "Yahweh".

Of course nothing I wrote in this post is valid,
unless GGWO actually is a "preciseness" ministry,
and that God will hold Christians accountable
for what Pastor Carl Stevens preaches,
even when they never heard him preach it.

Wow, the GGWO Koolaid tastes bitter this morning!

daved

(Message edited by daved on May 06, 2005)

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Tom is not out. SB is not out, it's just separate. SB cannot be out because Pastor Brown has not rejected CHS or his doctrinal progeny. Until SB divests itself of the unhealthy teachings of CHS, it will never be "out."

Tom lives in the building in SB and shares a roof with the Browns. He believes that the Browns are above reproach, which means he's been ignoring inconsistencies with this perception for years. It means that he has accepted the cover up of the embezzlement of the building funds without question, it means he has accepted that husbands abuse their wives and kids without account in the same building in which he lives, it means he does not question the influence of that non-Christian enema administering quack brought to the church by the Browns, and it means that he accepts the evil reports and slander regarding members that have left the church as mere warning to guard one's heart.

When you challenge Tom to reject teaching of CHS, you are also asking Tom to reject everything that surrounds his life.

Going by what Tom has said, his views will not change until Pastor Brown's views change. Tom seems more that happy to be lead by this man without question.

(Message edited by arguendo on May 06, 2005)

[yogi (yogi)]

Girl, you gotta a mind like a steel trap...

...love it!

yogi

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Why is it brainwashed cultists confined within the closed system that is TBS/GGWO continually regurgitate the same tripe about judging, not listening to evil, authority, etc. and then in the next breath say "I'm my own man with God." That's what you think.

I'd love to see Juniors library, I bet it is loaded with books on psychology, the human mind, conditioned response, how to control a crowd etc. (The same stuff Jim Morrison from the Doors read)

Branch pastors like Bruce Brown haven't had an original thought in decades. They listen to Juniors tapes, read his booklets and repeat the same baloney over and over again. It's no coincidence after a few years in GG that you begin to see the same things in your Bible that are being said from these pulpits. It's a huge connection wired in your brain and difficult to break. Is it any wonder these "brave" affiliates who are just now doing something about this apostacy came to their conclusions only when they became victims of "marking" themselves? Before that happened they sat at Juniors table like 3rd graders seeking teacher's approval, devouring his gossip about those who were "deceived" like hungry kittens. There's alot of repenting and rewiring to be done before these guys ever get it right.

Arguendo is right, people like Tom are truly "out of it." Hopefully a good dosage of reality will bring them back.

Jim

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Arguendo and Jim you are both correct. Until they see that most of what they heard was borrowed bologna with a different mayo they will grope in darkness proclaiming their freedom and spirituality. Until they realize they have the same anointing as all believers this will continue.

Deception: "My pastor wins souls"
Truth: The Holy Spirit wins souls, we are His witnesses. He does the work, not me. There is a great gulf between these two statements. And, it is only bridged by giving God the glory and not a man.
dave

[anova (anova)]

"I'd love to see Juniors library, I bet it is loaded with books on psychology, the human mind, conditioned response, how to control a crowd etc."

Jim,

My wife just recenlty told me that Carl, I mean junior, did indeed have books on psychology. He was often talking about "herd mentality." For years I have reasoned that his manipulative ways were patterns he fell into out of his insecurity. He found these things worked and continued to use them. Now, I realize that some of his stuff was premeditated and done with eyes wide open!

Anovus

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

In the early days, "Reality Therapy" by William Glasser was assigned reading to Bible college students.

Later he started quoting from Gail Sheehy's "Passages"--this was in Lenox I think.

Early on, I thought his interest in psychology was cool because I was into Fritz Perls and Carl Jung.

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on May 07, 2005)

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

I remember him mentioning Rolla May, although I haven't read it. It was funny how he was reading that stuff but would tell us not to. Now I can see why.

He threw alot of terms around. "Herd mentality, conditioned response..." many more I can't recall. He also used alot of biblical terminology that related to thought control. "Thinking with God, casting down imaginations, the every thought process, Holy Spirit recall, doctrinal frame of reference." It all boils down brainwashing. "Don't listen to an evil report, cockatrice eggs etc." Someone was in our heads and we didn't know it. And doesn't it just sound so spiritual when we repeat that stuff, after all it's in the Bible.

He was also adamant about people not seeing a psychiatrist or therapist. I'm sure a good therapist would have counseled a patient to get out of his church.

It does take a good dose of "Reality Therapy" to get someone out of a cult. Most of the testimony here seems to revolve around a bad experience waking us up. When you become the victim of marking or slander that's one way to see it. A blatant misuse of scripture from the pulpit is another. (It is amazing how personal bible study begins to center around what he taught, we read out what he's been reading in and repeat it. It's also interesting how people take notes and "study" them and think that they are experts on the bible. A casual reading will point out so many errors and I think alot of people there don't do that anymore, they stick to their notes and tapes and booklets.)

No I'm not the problem. I do think, with so many others on Factnet, I'm part of the solution. We've broken the NO TALK RULE.

Jim

ps. I like Carl Jung. Out of the big 3 he at least accepted man's spiritual nature. I also like what he said about primordal information we carry in our minds from the beginning of time. I got one practical thing from him regarding our life cycle. Early in life we live for others; our career, children etc. We build. Later in life we need to learn to take care of ourselves. I don't think it's selfish, I found it helpful.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I remember the 'Holy grid of information'. Sound like a cage?

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Tom, what your posts reveal cognitive dissonance at work within you. The factor of being forced to behave opposite to what you know causes cognitive dissonance. It is real phenomena. It is when a person is forced to accept and tolerate contradictions in their mind, the Orwellian group-think principle. This condition of cognitive dissonance, could explain how your thinking appears to break from reality to those of reading your posts. The condition causes a split between ideas and reality, to the point where one accepts "ideas" over perceptions of actual reality. It is an appalling lack of common sense and it signifies a cult member able to tolerate huge contradiction from the real world. I wrote the following post back in October concerning my own inner struggles:

Posted on Friday, October 22, 2004 - 11:06 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cognitive Dissonance:

This principle was present the first day I set foot on the TBS campus. This principle kept me in the ministry for so long and thankfully it was this principle that led me out.

My dilemma when I met the ministry was there an obvious esteeming of the Word of God (which was my heart's cry.) I also saw behavior that really bothered me and I could not reconcile within. God wanted to use my mind and allowed me to see behaviors as warning signals that something just wasn't right. But mind controlling groups work diligently on newcomers to explain away the discrepancies. Eventually the behaviors took a backseat in my thinking. I had to reconcile and justify the behaviors contrary to God's nature to remain sane in the ministry. I realize now that a thinking person (and someone who desires no hypocrisy in their heart) uses a lot of energy to remain sane in GGWO.

For all of us, the process of leaving (which starts long before one actually leaves) is enough light and understanding is shed and once again you cannot reconcile what you see against what they are telling you to see.

For me, I could no longer participate without being a hypocrite. Being a member of GGWO did not reconcile with my inner walk with God. I had to leave. The principle of cognitive dissonance was used by God to lead me out and back to Him.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

"You have made statements that I could take you to court for and win but fortunately for you I don’t believe in doing things that way."

I have committed no tort against you, Tom. I merely made assertions about your beliefs that you may answer and deny, or avoid and let stand.

You have choosen to avoid them and let them stand.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

"You accused me of being an accessory (by not reporting them) to the crimes of embezzlement and domestic abuse (of which I know nothing) and that would come under slander, defamation of character, etc."

No, I didn't, Tom. You will not twist what I have said. I said you are aware of these things and have accepted the manner in which they have been handled by the Browns. Mere knowledge of a crime does not make you an accessory, except for probably child abuse. You have yet to deny that all these things have happened in SB.

I have done nothing to you for which I need to be forgiven.

It is you that has made the discretion of Pastor Brown an issue. It was you that made the distinction between Baltimore and SB. These are your words:

"My Pastor has been a supporter of Pastor Stevens for 30+ years. My Pastor, Pastor Bruce Brown, is the most humble man I have ever met. He Loves God with everything in his being. He does nothing unless it is to Glorify God and The Lord Jesus Christ."

How do you rectify things that have happened in SB with this statement?

(Message edited by arguendo on May 07, 2005)

(Message edited by arguendo on May 07, 2005)

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Okay, Tom.

Church funds went missing from the building fund for the renovation of the gym. Why don't you know about that? Why did Pastor Brown not tell the church that those funds went missing? Why did Pastor Brown not tell the authorities that those funds were missing? Do you have the courage to ask Pastor Brown to explain?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

<font color="0000ff">I don't need to know nor do I want to know.</font>

Willful ignorance?

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on May 08, 2005)

[arguendo (arguendo)]

"Do you have the courage to reveal who you are and to explain why it is you're gossiping on the internet?"

I don't choose to reveal may name. Nor did I expect you to reveal yours. If you want to assume that the reason I don't reveal it is a lack of courage, you can do so. It is a reasonable assumption for you to make, although untrue in my opinion.

However, as to gossiping, Tom you have carefully put yourself in a position that makes it impossible for you to know if I am gossiping or not. Your avoidance of personal responsibility for your participation in your church has made it impossible for you to discrern between truth and gossip. You cannot "know" truth if you are afraid to engage in critical thinking and will not at least consisder that not everything you have been told from the pulpit is the whole truth.

You can condemn me all you want, Tom. But you are still stuck with yourself and your conscience. Either you are engaged in the truth or you are avoiding it.

For example, how can you say that you know little of Pastor Stevens teachings? Pastor Brown often played CHS's tapes at raps and occassionaly in services. CHS's teachings have been constantly present in SB, even if he has not. How can you deny their constant presence?

(Message edited by arguendo on May 09, 2005)

[dave_d (dave_d)]

out_of_it says:

<font color="ff0000">>>>
I am accountable to no man, only to God, as to how I live my life. The same applies to P. Stevens. If, if, he is off, he will be held accountable. I know my heart is towards God and have nothing to worry about
>>></font>

out_of_it,

Pastor Carl Stevens teaches you are accountable for what he preaches,
even if you don't hear his message.

In a taped message on the “Angelic Conflict” Played on “Grace Hour” on Friday, January 21, 2005, Pastor Carl Stevens mentioned the importance of being taught by a “Church that preaches preciseness”, like GGWO.

He said:

<font color="ff0000">>>>
…as obedient children, have your minds filled with precise light.

And it’s got to be a Church that preaches preciseness,
if it isn’t, [e.g. if isn’t a Church that preaches preciseness] you will be held responsible,
cause you will say that I never knew that at the Bema seat,
and God will say:
“Well, where were you when I sent people around that did it. [e.g. preach preciseness]
>>></font>

dave_d

[anova (anova)]

Doris,

You've only been out 7 months?!?!?

You've evidently traveled VERY far in those seven months. God bless you.


You know, after 6 years in TBS I went to visit my parents for a week. No services, no raps, no tapes, nothing. My head started to clear in that week.

It was the beginning of the end. I was out in 6 months.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Anova,

Doris was once a FN Samurai for the Dark Side. She was sent to FN by Wisot on a Search and Destroy mission. One can never underestimate the Power of the Light. Especially when the Light lives within. The Dark Side should be vewy vewy afraid...

[anova (anova)]

Jeannie,

Lately, I keep asking, "Is this really true?" I want to say that of this story about Doris. I am left speechless.

Anovus

[anova (anova)]

Doris,

It's good to hear your background and have the spaces filled in! Incredible.

This Wisot sounds like a real prize.

There was a GG pastor in France who sounds a lot like Wisot.
His saga continues. Scroll down the threads page and check out the Charles Louis Demeo thread #4. A French church member just posted with some really interesting stuff.

(Message edited by anova on July 19, 2005)

[anova (anova)]

Looks like the thread I just mentioned got moved to the top of the heap!

[anova (anova)]

Doris,

Thanks, Doris. There are a few GG pastors that seem to have been truly cloned from Carl. It's good for the sheep to be warned.

Anovus

[jeannie (jeannie)]

bump..