Letters From the Affiliates

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Here is the recent Fla letter


To Dr. Stevens and the Board of Elders of Greater Grace World Outreach:

It is with our deep love and respect that we, the undersigned, submit the following letter. Throughout the years we would all agree to the fact that we have all spiritually prospered and matured through the ministry of our pastor and spiritual father, Dr. Carl Stevens.

Over the last 2 years we have found our ministry in a state of great turmoil, and at present teetering on irreparable division. Many long standing relationships are strained, some fractured and others seemingly destroyed as a result. On December 5, 2004 Dr. Stevens commissioned Pastor Tom Powell to convene a meeting of the affiliated pastors. From February 1st through the 4th, 2005, the Board of Elders of GGWO and over fifty of the affiliated American and international pastors convened at Sandy Cove in Maryland. Many of us were greatly encouraged by the love and unity that was demonstrated at the Sandy Cove meetings. Through open and honest dialogue we agreed to endeavor to carry out the following process in sequence:

 Define key doctrines and their applications.
 Determine the future governing structure of our affiliation.
 Establish a covenant which would confirm each affiliate’s commitment to the resolutions defined through this process.


Before God, we voluntarily signed the Sandy Cove covenant to affirm our affiliation and our commitment to carry this process through. In light of that commitment we had looked forward to the upcoming Sandy Cove meeting in June, 2005. Because of the continuing state of tension we feel strongly that this meeting must take place.

Our concerns are as follows:

1. That this process will not continue.
2. That the covenant is being undermined.
3. That there is sentiment that the direction that was agreed upon should not be followed.

A recent e-mail circulated by Pastors Frank Corbiere and Arnold Van Doren (both signers of the covenant), is indicative of our concern. And we quote Pastor Corbiere:

“Sandy Cove has misled a number of pastors into thinking that it was Pastor’s desire to hold such a meeting…”

As stated above, Pastor Powell was commissioned by Dr. Stevens in the presence of witnesses to arrange the meeting. This fact was also stated in writing in the opening sentence of the Sandy Cove Covenant.

Pastor Corbiere continues in reference to Sandy Cove:

“It is a movement of deception against our ministry, not by all those who attended, but by some of those who arranged it in an attempt to remove the old landmarks in our ministry…”




It was evident to all present that the proceedings of the meetings was not “deceptive” in any way but on the contrary was open, honest, and doctrinal. The meetings were focused on the clarification and affirmation, not the “removal,” of the “old landmarks” by defining cardinal, primary, and secondary doctrines. This process was to be continued in the next Sandy Cove meeting.

Pastor Corbiere continues:

“It was never agreed at SC that Baltimore was to become only one of the churches of affiliation.”

On the contrary, it was agreed by the majority that the Baltimore church was to become one of the churches in the affiliation, because clearly no one man could replace Dr. Stevens to lead this worldwide ministry.

Pastor Corbiere goes on to say:

“The majority of the Body in Baltimore and many of us in the branch ministries desire the ministry to continue as it has been, with Baltimore remaining as home base with a pastor who will lead this world wide ministry.”

We cannot speak for the Baltimore church regarding its local leadership, but we can speak as the affiliates regarding the leadership of GG worldwide. As affiliates we have voluntarily submitted to the headship of Pastor Stevens as the founder of GGWO and for this reason, we formerly recognized Baltimore as home base. We thoroughly agree that Baltimore needs to select a local pastor but do not agree that this pastor will also be the leader of the affiliates. It has now become apparent, due to the confusion and chaos, that we, the affiliates need to determine the future governing structure of the affiliation. This is one of the main reasons to continue the Sandy Cove process.

Many of us have faithfully and sacrificially supported this ministry, both financially and by sending some of our best people to Baltimore. We have remained faithful and true through diverse trials and persecutions; our loyalty should not be questioned. We write this letter in the Spirit of meekness, with much prayer; however, our resolve is firm. We have deep convictions on these issues and many of the issues brought forth at Sandy Cove I and we expect this process to continue at Sandy Cove II.

We encourage the Board of Elders of GGWO to make definitive decisions that mutually agree with the doctrines outlined in the Sandy Cove agreement, as well as their implementation. We also expect the Board of Elders to function and abide by their own by-laws. It is our deepest prayer that the unity of Sandy Cove will become our legacy for years to come.

AS WITNESS OUR HANDS AND SEALS this 31st day of March, in the year of Our Lord, 2005.

The following are a list of pastors who gave their consent and support to this letter of rebuttal in a continued support for the Sandy Cove Covenant and the future Sandy Cove plans:

1. Louie Ruvido – Rockland Maine
2. Bob White – Gorham Maine
3. Bruce Brown – South Berwick, Maine
4. Wayne Goldworthy – South Berwick Maine
5. Mike Walker – Montreal, Canada
6. Tom Powell – Tacoma, Wa.
7. Jim Cornwall – Tacoma, Wa.
8. John Hartford – Tacoma, Wa.
9. Paul Wheelock – Tacoma, Wa.
10. Greg Gamelli – Tacoma, Wa
11. Dominick Rodriguez – Las Vegas, Nevada
12. Bill Reed – New Orleans
13. Timothy Kelley - St. Pete, Fla
14. Rob Howland – St. Pete, Fla.
15. Wayne Hogarth – Westfield, Ma.
16. Chet Marshall – Westfield, Ma.
17. Jack Byers, Westfield, Ma
18. Mark Morin, Rome NY
19. Chris Pruett – Rome NY
20. Bob Duncomb – Rome NY
21. Ric Hesse – Rome NY
22. Mike Philip – Rome NY
23. Kevin Lewis – Rome NY
24. Gary Smith – Chile
25. Mark Fellows – Chile
26. David Moore – Burnt Hills NY
27. Gerry Graziano – Seneca Falls NY
28. James A. Dawley III Elder –Seneca Falls NY
29. Jason A. Martin – Seneca Falls NY
30. Timothy P. Kirkey – Seneca Falls NY
31. Alexey Klimenco – Moscow, Russia
32. Anatoly Stephanos – Moscow
33. Nicolai Gunechev - Moscow
34. Pavel Lapin – Archangel Russia
35. Vasily Mikhailov – Kaliningrad Russia
36. Maxim Ivanov – Mogelev, Belarus
37. Dennis Ellis – St Petersburg, Russia
38. Victor M Popov – St Pete, Russia
39. Robert V. Forbatok – St. Pete, Russia
40. Vadim Yanushevsky – St. Pete, Russia
41. Alexei Bogdanov – St. Pete, Russia
42. Andrei G. Beznosikov – St. Pete, Russia
43. George G. Mashkov – St. Pete, Russia
44. Andrei V. Udartchev – St. Pete, Russia
45. Dominick DiPiazza – Uchard France
46. Louie DeMeo – California
47. Mariusz Zajac – Gdanks, Poland
48. Maciej Knechciak– Warsau, Poland
49. Maciej Wilkosz – Kracow, Poland
50. Tomasz Mikulowski – Kracow, Poland
51. Piotr Slomian – Kracow, Poland
52. Larry Cavicchi – Youngstown, Ohio
53. Craig Wade – Youngstown, Ohio
54. Bill Alderson – Cleveland, Ohio
55. Terry Fleck – Indianapolis, Indiana
56. Daniel Baker – Baltimore, Maryland
57. Robert Prokop – Vienna, Austria
58. Michael LaPlume – Vienna Austria
59. Matthew Stross – Vienna, Austria
60. Dragan Jevremovic – Vienna Austria
61. Brent Orman – Vienna, Austria
62. Saulius Karosas – Kliapeda, Lithuania
63. Bob Sampson – South Berwick Maine
64. Fred Gordon – St. Pete, Fla
65. Tom Zeitler - Baltimore
66. Phil Zeitler - Baltimore
67. Phil Mawaka – Hartford, Conn.
68. Doug DelGazio – Hartford/Baltimore
69. Jean Luc Megret – Uchard, France
70. Art Atkins – Baltimore
71. Roman Rudnev – Kazan, Russia
72. Dima Borodkoa – Minsk Belaruse
73. David Michaud – Hilversum, Holland
74. Russ Cheroske – Aberdeen, Maryland
75. Joe Cabral – Baltimore
76. David Lefler – St. Pete, Fla.
77. Allan Wayne – Seneca Falls, NY
78. Wess Simmons – Tacoma, WA.
79. Larry Slater – Putney, NY
80. Jim Chase – St. Pete, Fla
81. Dan Foster – Fort Lauderdale
82. G.Wesseh Bestman – Monrovia, Liberia
83. John Bilowith – Baltimore
84. Brian Williams – Helsinki, Finland

This is not a complete list; but represents a large number of men who are in favor of what
Sandy Cove meant and what it will mean in the future.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

I have heard today that ALL of the branch ministries minus one or two ARE or HAVE disaffiliated. MBCS students, these affiliate pastors are available to you through the internet. You are not alone.. let them assist and support you.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

here is one from Pastor Morin in Rome, NY



3/26/05
Dear Elders of GGWO Baltimore,

I am writing out of response to your request regarding the recent vote by you, the board of elders of GGWO, had where to my knowledge the vote was 5in favor for the appointment of Pastor Roger Stenger as the new senior pastor of the church over 2 votes for Pastor Schaller. I am sensitive to the fact that the church there is indigenous and in one sense does not need my or any affiliates input in the strict sense. So in this regards, I write with a careful respect. First, I want to say that your decision has more than just a local impact but world-wide as the churches affiliated watch this unfold. GGWO in Baltimore has over the last 2-3 years been under great scrutiny, not only by the Christian community, as well as the unsaved world, but for the 1st time in our history by Greater Grace Churches themselves and their affiliated pastors who have remained true to the heritage entrusted to them. Much has taken place over the past 30 months that has not brought honor to the name of Christ in our ministry. This vote can be another step in the right direction to begin the imperative changes to allow us not to repeat the failures of the past. So as an Affiliated Pastor of GGWO for 30 years, I share with you my concerns.

First, I would like to address the affirmation of Pastor Roger Stenger, which I am in complete favor of. Pastor Roger in my view is the most neutral (non-controversial), well balanced, pastoral candidate for the position. He is a former missionary & church planter, has pastoral experience, and is a proven student of the Word of God. But from my experience with him, one of the outstanding characteristics is that he has more of a pastoral heart which is what is needed in the church. His balance would not exclude his visionary abilities but would not let those blind him to the need for the reconciliation of the many who have been marked and hurt during this season. He is not a novice but in my estimation will implement the changes in which the 70 affiliated Pastors agreed upon at the Sandy Cove meeting. Some of those were doctrinal and some were methodology arising from improper application of certain doctrines. I believe he will represent not just the local church in Baltimore needs which is first and foremost but be someone who will reach out to the affiliated churches as well as be one who unites. In my conversations with Roger he is not seeking this great thing for himself. But has the resolve to put into practice the necessary changes and model of leadership that will take the church in Baltimore in a healing direction. I think he has the temperament to handle and work with the various personalities on the staff as well as have personal accountability himself as the Pastor. He patterns what we have strived for here in Rome – Servant leadership and not Charisma leadership.

The second vote option was that for Pastor Schaller. Pastor Schaller is a dear friend and we have been a supporter of him for many years. He has been our guest speaker here in Rome for 13 years at our Mission’s conference. When I write even critiquing any man of God, especially whom I have served in the trenches with I do it knowing, who am I, but for the grace of God.

My fear is that already there are different leaders campaigning for him and hurting the process. I received one call today from a pastor who was at a 2 hour rap by one of the elders promoting why Pastor Schaller is the one for the job. This pastor was convinced that the elders are a bunch of inept novices, who rushed the vote, railroaded the right man, don’t know what there doing and as a result voted for the wrong guy. The quote of the day – “the elders have never operated in this culture of leadership before”. This is sad and a total lack of spiritual integrity. It brings to light the systemic problem we have been facing even as affiliates. The ripple effect of a vacuum of integrity! Who speaks for whom?



Second, is my concern with the possible appointment of Pastor Schaller and the overruling of the elder’s vote. I was not aware that we had church membership and let the congregation vote for which person they liked best?
My input is the result of a number of personal meetings I have had with him regarding the serious issues concerning the church there and Pastor’s condition. The last one being over Thanksgiving when he was here visiting his mom. I have the utmost respect for Pastor Schaller and his missionary passion. I, too, share in this passion. How the Lord has graciously used him has certainly been recognized around the world. For this I am deeply grateful to have him as my friend all these years and to have the Lord use him to inspire me to think globally in missions. My reservations come as a result of my conversations with him, his strong doctrinal positions in areas which were addressed at Sandy Cove for change, and his seeming indifference or blindness to the departure of so many godly individuals who were just asking honest questions. From the interactions at Sandy Cove and his doctrinal leanings toward OT transfers of the priesthood into NT church government as well as the unclear view on the anointing of the P/T, it helped me understand how he is wired in his leadership style. Beliefs determine actions. His pattern overseas, and this is not a critique but only an objective observation, is that the churches that are planted are led primarily by single pastor/elder leadership with no strong endorsement of the development of deacons, and other ruling elders. This is consistent with Pastor Schaller leadership style as well. A strong “spiritual father” or bishop role of influence which over the years in Europe has by some churches not been so welcomed. It is my opinion that Pastor Schaller is wired for exactly what he is doing – church planting and mission/discipleship. This is a wheel within the wheel – not the whole wheel itself! GGWO at this time in its history needs a Pastor/ physician and not a C.T Studd as its pastor – mind you we always need a C.T. but not as senior pastor of a wounded church! A rebuilder and shepherd and not someone, who if they don’t fit the program doesn’t need them. When I spoke with Pastor Schaller in November and asked him what was being done to stop the flow of people leaving and to go after all the precious folks who were leaving the Baltimore church as a result of Pastor’s obvious waning health and absence, along with the misrepresentations being done in his name, his response was a shock to me. “If Pastor Stevens wants the church to go down to 1000 people, it’s Pastor’s church.” Then he continued, “If Pastor wants the church to go down to 10 people, it’s his church, and I won’t cross the line of trying to remove him.” I then asked him if he saw himself pastoring the church there in Baltimore and stated clearly, “Yes.” Is this something he is seeking? Does Pastor Schaller feel he is the Elisha of the Elijah? This does not represent my convictions or those of many other affiliated pastors for whom I will not try to speak for. How will Pastor Schaller give the affiliates confidence that the changes of Sandy Cove will be made when some of the very doctrines he strongly holds to are those that need changing in GGWO? Would Pastor Schaller be able work with men like Dr. Lewis, Pastor Steve, Pastor Marr, and Pastor Guy Duff? Would Pastor Schaller reach out and listen to the many affiliated churches that have been deeply affected by all of this as well as those callously marked for simple disagreement? My concern is that the vagueness of Pastor Schaller’s doctrinal positions along with his model of leadership would not bring a healing that is needed at this time to GGWO. His model is a much needed wheel within the wheel. Thank God for Pastor Schaller’s portion in that much needed wheel but it is not the only wheel itself in order to bring about a healthy church and affiliation. This is why I believe Pastor Stenger is more shaped for this role at this time in GGWO history. Thank you for considering my input – know we are praying for you and deeply respect each of you.
30 years of getting to know Him together is no small thing – all else means little!


Jesus Never Fails!

Pastor Mark Morin
Rome, NY

[jeannie (jeannie)]

The following letter was sent to Steve Andrulonis and CC'd to Pastor Hadley from Pastor Skip Wood in Argentina.

P.Skip and several other affiliate pastors are concerned about the MBCS students. If any student reading this board would like his assistance or just would like to speak to a pastor about their concerns can contact me and I will put you in touch with him. Jeannieree44@aol.com

Pastor Skip's letter:

I will be brief and to the point. Your tirades against parents and home pastors of students at MBCS need to stop. If I hear another report of you or any other member of the MBCS staff publicly or privately in any way influencing any foreign student from returning to his home country for any reason, I will summarily report you personally and MBCS to the IMF as encouraging students to violate the stipulations of their visas. I would expect that the safe thing to do and the thing that would demonstrate some degree of character and integrity would be to publicly in front of the entire student body repent and apologize for your unguarded statements.

: I repeat, the next time I hear of any disparaging statements made publicly or privately in the presence of MBCS foreign students, I will not contact you first but will go directly to the authorities naming both you and the school.

I'm tired of the bull s**t you guys are shoveling in the name of education. If you don't like my language, you can substitute the KJV "dung." It all smells the same.

Sincerely and dogmatically,
RW Wood

[newcreation (newcreation)]

Jeannie -
Is it true, all except for one or two affiliates have or will leave? I am in an affiliate, I've heard nothing. Zilch. What I am aware of is from FN only.

[lmao (lmao)]

Jeannie,

I hope you had permission to post P. Wood's letter and I hope P. Wood has his facts straight. I do not know either way, but if he or any other afiliate pastors write open letters in response to mere rumors, it could serve to undermine every thing that Sandy Cove stands for. If these things are true, they should be made known, but extreme care must be taken or the very people you want to reach will ignor your words as being gossip, slander, lies and evil reports. It is great to have the freedom to speak, but if we are not careful, noone will listen.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Yes, P. Wood gave me permission to post his letter. The letter was based upon first person information. The other letters were posted earlier by Pastor Graziano, I just bumped them up to be read.

Unfortunately, the letters are not based on rumors. This forum seems to be a good way to circumvent the lies and rumors and put the truth out there.

I heard from a reliable source about the many disaffiliations. I guess the next couple weeks we will see how it all plays out.

[j_graz (j_graz)]

The very reason I decided to post the letters and then address FN openly in another thread was because of the immense amount of porpaganda and misinformation about the affiliates being 'spewed' by the leadership in Baltimore.

I am open to questions and such from anyone at this point!

mawagaman@yahoo.com

[minutus (minutus)]

Jerry,

Thanks for your refreshing openness. I've heard about 75-80% of U.S. churches and about 50% of the foreign churches are leaving. Which churches in the U.S. are staying with Baltimore? Any major ones? Also, what is the next step for those who are leaving? What will the new alignment look like?

Dave Carson

[minutus (minutus)]

Jerry,

Thanks for your refreshing openness. I've heard about 75-80% of U.S. churches and about 50% of the foreign churches are leaving. Which churches in the U.S. are staying with Baltimore? Any major ones? Also, what is the next step for those who are leaving? What will the new alignment look like?

Dave Carson

[jeannie (jeannie)]

P. Graz... Are you aware of the MBCS students who are very concerned with the present atmosphere of intimidation in the bible college?

Would the affiliate pastors consider talking to these students if they were gathered in one location? I also know some are reading the forum so any information which could be posted is very helpful to them.

Another pastor mentioned a recent response from P. Morin and yourself to Tom Schaller's letter. Is this something which also could be posted?

Thank you for being here...

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I have been told that the GGWO missions dept. is holding the return tickets of some of the foreign students (who turned them over in good faith when they arrived in Baltimore) and are now refusing to give them back upon request.

I repeat, this was the latest "rumor" relayed to me. I cannot confirm. Does anyone have further information?

[jeannie (jeannie)]

This excellent post from a student of MBCS was posted on the "Discuss Forum." Ericlaw's response was perfect. We need to help these students. Please consider posting on both boards. Affiliate pastors please consider how important your voices, spoken in a public forum could turn the tide for our young people. They are seeking answers to their questions. They need all the information possible.

http://s10.invisionfree.com/DiscussGGWO/index.php?showtopic=13

[j_graz (j_graz)]

Minutus - I can't answer for any of the other churches at this time. There is an issue of 'disaffiliation' being hard to define, since 'affiliation' is such a vague issue in this ministry. You'll get a different definition of affiliation, depending upon who you ask. Some of the leaders in Baltimore hold the ordination as affiliation, some the name of the church. There has never been a formal act of affiliating, just vague, voluntary association. Some of the churches are waiting for repentence to happen. Some for deadline dates. Others are more realistic.

This is the single most important issue facing SC II - what is affiliation and how should it look.

Jeanie- I am aware of the MBC&S crisis and am available to help in any way I can. As far as meeting these students in one location...I don't know. It depends on the relationship the affiliate pastor has with those students. It would better, if they are organized, to write a joint letter to the pres of college and pastor of the church. Send copies to the affiliates and make the issue public. Then we can deal with it doctrinally.

There is another letter, but I am going to honor the deadline on it for a response.

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

There's something I haven't thought of. If you disaffiliate, do you also turn in your ordination papers? (I turned in mine) Or does GG have the power to revoke them? And then how do you continue? Can your affiliate church, which I assume is "incorporated" turn around and give you an ordination certificate? Take a guy like Rick Knapp, or even Paul Stevens, are they still working off a TBS/GG ordination?

Does anyone out there know the law concerning all this? Maybe I can start my own religion...

Jim

[lee (lee)]

Jack never turned his in Jim. He still uses it today if he marries someone. The Ma laws are somewhat loose concerning the use of the ordination.(they never check) He even got a waver to marry our son in another state.
Fear not, he's not planning to start his own religion!

[j_graz (j_graz)]

My father-in-law has been an amazing encourgement to me. I asked him about sending my ordination in and he rebuked me.

He said 'that was a time when you experienced a legitimate call on your life. Those men witnessed it and at that time, and in your conscience, all was well. The ordination is a testimony of those men and you about a very beautiful and sacred work of God. It is not yours to turn in, NOR THEIRS TO TAKE. Keep it!'

It is a bigger issue than a GGWO ordination...

(Message edited by J_Graz on April 25, 2005)

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Don't take this the wrong way guys, but when I left GG, I left. There is a bigger issue, the Word of God. If I use their credentials in my ministry then I still represent them. They are a cult and I refuse to represent them in any way, shape or form.I want nothing to do with them or their lies or hypocracy. If I'd felt called to stay in ministry, I would have done what others on Factnet have, got my theological training and credentials somewhere else.

Jim

[j_graz (j_graz)]

In a legal sense, if the constitution of a church defines the process, it can ordain its own pastors.

As far as calling the whole of GGWO a 'cult' I disagree. I think there are certainly 'cultic' tendencies wooven throughout that are going to need re-evaluation. This is another topic that is going to be hammered out at future SC meetings. We need to ask and look at 'What is unhealthy about GGWO and what needs to be defined and formally rejected.'

(Message edited by J_Graz on April 25, 2005)

[leegriffith (leegriffith)]

Excellent post j-graz. I actually sent my certificate back to Baltimore once. Then I got a call from CHS's secretary saying that CHS said the doctrinal issues I brought up did not have to be the cause for dissafiliation, and he wanted to know would I take it back? I did take it back for a short time. Then I saw that remaining affiliated would just not work. Also, I realized that whole idea of having one local assembly submitting to the authority of another (which is what all GGWO affilliates are really opening themselves up to even though there has been back and forth "interpretation" as to exactly what affiliation is) is bogus. So I sent CHS a letter saying I was dissafiliating. But this time I kept my ordination certificate. I figured if they wanted it back they could come out here to Arizona and get it. I saw some of what your father-in-law perceived. Furthermore, I still have tremendous respect for at least one of the men who signed my certificate: Rick Knapp, who long ago disaffiliated with GGW0. Though Rick and I have definite doctrinal differences, we have communicated over the years and still remain friends, and thus far he has not told me I'm a heretic.

[aurora (aurora)]

Jim Faucett makes this point:

"There is a bigger issue, the Word of God. If I use their credentials in my ministry then I still represent them. They are a cult and I refuse to represent them in any way, shape or form.I want nothing to do with them or their lies or hypocracy. If I'd felt called to stay in ministry, I would have done what others on Factnet have, got my theological training and credentials somewhere else."

That is really the point of dissaffiliation, isn't it? I mean, aren't the branch leaders acknowledging the fact that they have faulty doctrine in their heads and have been indoctrinating others with it and THAT is ultimatly what needs addressing?!

I know with the South Berwick branch, however, that the dissaffiliation from Baltimore has been presented to the congregation as being because of Stevens' dimentia and drug addiction only with no acknowledgement of needing to have doctrinal or church government renovation.

I expect that many of the branches will affiliate with eachother, maybe based out of Kelly's Florida church, and try to maintain that we-are-part-of-something-really-big appearance..

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

It has been suggested to me by a couple of my friends on Factnet that I post my "disaffiliation" letter. Based on the way this discussion is going maybe now is the time.

My Letter of Resignation, dated 5-23-96:

Dear Pastor Stevens,

After two years of thought, I am officially resigning my ordination as a Pastor at GGWO. As stated in earlier correspondance, I am leaving because I can no longer agree with your distorted views concerning chastisement, pastoral authority, and your self appointed role as "God's Annointed." Your disclaimers concerning these issues do not impress me as I have boxes full of tapes clarifying what you teach. I can also no longer accept your method of administration which is gossip. It is hypocritical for you to claim that gossip is verbal murder while you constantly slander those who disagree with you. Your willful misrepresentation of my situation from the pulpit in Dec. 1993 is a perfect example.

During our last conversation you stated that if I resigned my ordination I would be your "enemy." The only enemy you have is a delusional view of your role in Christianity and an inability to keep your mouth shut. You also stated that I would "always be Greater Grace." I will always be a Christian first and put Jesus ahead of all else, and I cannot in good conscience continue my relationship with your ministry while you continue to abuse your authority and misrepresent the Word to support that abuse.

Since leaving your church my wife and I have basically been treated like lepers. I believe this is a result of your constant teaching concerning evil. Instead of trusting God and trying to reconcile lost sheep, people are afraid of contact with those who have "left the will of God" because they may become "infected with evil." On the Grace Hour broadcast of 01/15/96 you stated that people who "leave the will of God" become mentally ill as a result of God wounding them. Was it a coincidence that this message was spoken after your conversation with my tearful wife the day before? I think it's really sick that you would blame God for the emotional damage your legalism causes.

I have sent copies of this resignation to several people in the church I consider to be elders. It is not my desire to try to get anyone to take my side on this issue, only to have my resignation on record with someone besides you. My testimony concerning this matter will be open to any inquiry.

Truly, James P. Kennedy

cc: Dick Colby, Ed Canino, Ron Johnson, Tom Schaller, Jim Kirby, Guy Duff, Ron Petrecca

note: I attended my last GG service in November of 1993, this letter was mailed in May of 1996. I realize how difficult a decision it is for the affiliate pastors.

Jim

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

ps. The next person who calls me Jim Faucett is getting a disaffiliation letter! LOL

[ariel (ariel)]

Bravo, Jim Kennedy !

[anova (anova)]

"If I use their credentials in my ministry then I still represent them. They are a cult and I refuse to represent them in any way..."

"If I'd felt called to stay in ministry, I would have done what others on Factnet have, got my theological training and credentials somewhere else."

Jim, to these statements I give you a big, full-throated AMEN!!


Anovus

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

Jim Kennedy: You're nothing less than inspiring.

[cape_cod (cape_cod)]

Jim Kennedy,

I think that YOU, Jim Faucett, took a VERY brave stand. Thank you!!!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[j_graz (j_graz)]

The ordination I received from GGWO was very precious to me and still is. There are men who testified of the call of God on my life at that time who's signatures are on that document. I'm not giving to anyone.

As far as using it as my 'credentials' that is dealt with as my church ordains me. I will not consider myself a GG pastor any longer.

The other issue I want to mention here is that there are many of us who have not been limited to studies under GG. Some have had excellent training and used other educational resources to learn from,live under and grow in.

No offense here either, but some of the pastors in this forum who disaffiliated, spent a great deal of their ministries either at the home base or were trained exclusively by 'home base' (I hate calling it that)...so they were very 'home baseised' (great new scrabble word here)
Perhaps most of if not all they learned and heard was CHS. But, once you get out of Baltimore (or Lenox) most of, of course not all, the affiliate churches are pretty sound.

Secondly, there has been a great deal of good teaching that is orthodox in both schools (Lenox and Balt). The problem doctrines are those 'conjectures and liberties' taken by the founder to either bolster his office, defend himself or make himself the author of something 'never heard anywhere else before!'
ie: Bemer seat pastoral presentation, Demon Armies, Theantric Action, etc....

[aurora (aurora)]

oops- I just noticed that I attributed that quote to the wrong "Jim" (I should have said Kennedy not Faucett). Sorry!

I think his point is SO relevant.
Are the branches dissaffiliating just to preserve their ministries from GGWO fallout?

I say the answer is probably: YES. Otherwise, they would HAVE to be retrained for their pastor job and future SC's could become some sort of clearinghouse for that...

[leegriffith (leegriffith)]

Again, kudos j_graz. It is apparently easy for those who don't feel "called to stay in ministry" to set the standards for those who are called and who fulfill the calling to teach. I don't "use" my credentials either. My small congregation doesn't care if or through whom I'm ordained. My teaching for the past 15 years has established my competency in their eyes--and the bottom line is we are all approved or disapproved of by God anyway and we must all give account. But if formal training means buying into the systems of theology taught by most seminaries, please, by all means, let me remain "untrained."

BTW--I dissafiliated in 1991, and it was most certainly not to avoid "GGWO fallout."

(Message edited by leegriffith on April 25, 2005)

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Actually, I'm talking about disaffiliation and not attempting to set any standards for anyones call apart from the scriptural admonition that we are to obey God and not men.

Yes, some of the branch ministries are pretty sound hence Sandy Cove and now talk of breaking away. I guess that's my point. To be affiliated by its definition is to be in close connection as a member or a branch; closely associated with another in a dependant or subordinate position. (Websters) It looks like many are going to abandon that relationship and start something new, for precisely the same reasons outlined in my resignation. That's why I put it up there.

Lee, I'm glad you're in this discussion but your jab about my statement regarding my call reeks of a GG superiority complex. My reasons for staying out of the pulpit are just as sacred as your reasons for staying in one. I felt called while at GG and my ablities and results exceeded many of my peers. The first 2 years of my exit process crushed the life out of me. I also felt for me to carry residual GG programming coupled with my personal scars into a pulpit would be irresponsible. In 1996 I found myself separated and later divorced, I feel that is a disqualification to act as an elder. That in no way makes me a second class citizen as a christian, and I am more than qualified to share my experience with others regarding my life in and out of TBS/GG.

Jim

(Message edited by jim kennedy on April 25, 2005)

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Jim, Sounds pretty responsible and ultimately the heart of a pastor.

Lee,
It seems to me that the call of God is an extremely subjective thing. We pray and ask God to lead. We determine the will of God for our lives by feelings of peace or attraction maybe and hopefully checked against the Word. In the end it comes down to us doing the best we can, it is a heart attitude. You might say, " I really believe God wants me to turn in my ordination." To do otherwise would not be by faith and would be against conscience. What is truly the call calling of God on a life? Who knows, but we can at a minimum say that it is:
1. My relationship with God
2. My Marriage (if applicable)
3. My Family (if applicable)
4. My Church

Can I say that being a pastor in Elbonia is my call if it causes division in my marriage or if it destroys my children? Can I say that I am called to a church if my wife will not attend, or if my children are not prospering there? Could I continue to attend a church if it is “OFF”? Could I keep my ordination if my conscience and my personal walk before God dictate that I can’t? To violate these things would be going against my call. We have these divine priorities to keep the call in focus or to even clarify the call.

[leegriffith (leegriffith)]

Jim,
My remark was not about whether or why you are in the pulpit or out of the pulpit, which is none of my business, but it was about the cavalier way that I believe that you and some others on this thread have approached the subject of ordination. I certainly do not think of you (or anyone else) as a second class citizen as a Christian.
Lee

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Gentlemen:

Your above discussion is most interesting. I don't see how Jim is being cavalier about his ordination. Jim's resignation letter must have been one of the most painful things he ever had to do. It screams of integrity.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Since the 80s, even when I was still 'affiliated' with TBS, I insisted that the people I ministered to called me Jim. Not 'Pastor' (titles were such a big thing in TBS, I became sick of them--Carl was not happy with just 'Pastor'--he had to be 'Doctor'). Men are called by God and that calling can be recognized by others. 'Pastor' describes more what you do, than what your title is. I had to tell Carl Stevens face to face that I could no longer in good conscience be a part of TBS because I had come to a point where I could not confess the same doctrines he did. I did not see him as even preaching the biblical gospel--but rather a diminished shadow of one centered on man and not God who saves.

I still have my ordination certificate. It is nothing more than a souvenir--a reminder like a divorce decree of a time past.

God has been very faithful in providing me with many opportunities to minister and I am grateful for them. The paper never made me a minister, God did that and those men recognized nothing more than what God had done. I am just ministering now in other ways that are just as fruitful if not more so--imagine trying to explain what sin is to a group of wiggly three and four year olds. Now imagine it is me trying to explain that--then imagine that I have to explain sins of 'commission' and sins of 'omission'. It all starts with cookies. If you omit sugar from cookies what do they taste like? If you commit flies and worms to your cookies can you only imagine...

(I have passed exams for ordination by the way, in at least two denominations--yet I have held off pressing towards ordination. Until now.)

In my view, there is a seat empty at the table for guys like Jim Kennedy. Read his posts of his memories of when he was teaching and preaching and then tell me that the Word of God is not like a fire in the bones. I don't know him that well but I know that some local church, a representation of the body of Christ is less well off without him.

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on April 26, 2005)

[newcreation (newcreation)]

From JF's post worth repeating:

>>In my view, there is a seat empty at the table for guys like Jim Kennedy. Read his posts of his memories of when he was teaching and preaching and then tell me that the Word of God is not like a fire in the bones. I don't know him that well but I know that some local church, a representation of the body of Christ is less well off without him. <<

Thank you, JF, for saying this so pointedly.

Jim K, it has been so good to read your posts. To know you are well. I pray that the Lord will continue to use you in great and mighty ways.
}

[leegriffith (leegriffith)]

Well said, Jim, and worth much contemplation.

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

"Jim's resignation letter must have been one of the most painful things he ever had to do. It screams of integrity."

"In my view, there is a seat empty at the table for guys like Jim Kennedy. Read his posts of his memories of when he was teaching and preaching and then tell me that the Word of God is not like a fire in the bones. I don't know him that well but I know that some local church, a representation of the body of Christ is less well off without him"

So glad to read these words. Thank you Louise and Jim. AMEN &amp; AMEN

[minutus (minutus)]

"In my view, there is a seat empty at the table for guys like Jim Kennedy. Read his posts of his memories of when he was teaching and preaching and then tell me that the Word of God is not like a fire in the bones. I don't know him that well but I know that some local church, a representation of the body of Christ is less well off without him"

I knew it on La Gracia, saw it on the streets of DC, and am convinced of it to this day. You're needed greatly in whatever capacity the Lord leads you to serve, Jim Kennedy.

Dave

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Mark Morin and J.Graz, may God bless you in all of this, and thank you for posting this letter. It is good that you offer solutions to the problems you've defined.

I'm also happy to see you making use of Factnet to expose more people to the truth of what is happening in Baltimore. Only a small percentage of those who are reading actually post; you've reached many by putting this letter here.

"Where no council is the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety."
"And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church..."

Jim

ps. Mark, I'm still swinging a brush 2-3 days a week. lol.

(Message edited by jim kennedy on April 26, 2005)

[lmao (lmao)]

I think God is awsome. Everything that is happening is a testamony that God is true to His Word. I can't wait to see how it all shakes out. God is doing alot of judging, chastizing, loving and encouraging. All things truly are working for good. The peacable fruits of rightousness are coming. How do I know? God promised they would and He has a pretty good record so far.

[ariel (ariel)]

Whether or not Jim Kennedy becomes a formal member once again of a religious organization of any kind is an issue I for one will not press upon him. Its between him and God. I do know for certain he would be of benefit to any clear thinking congregation. (The operative words there are 'clear thinking'). Jims story speaks volumes. I knew him back then. He was always a man without guile. Which is probably why he invoked Stevens wrath. In my opinion his contributions here on Factnet indeed serve the real body of Christ wherever its members are scattered.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Hey Mark, purple and black ceilings and walls! lol. Welcome to the outer fringes. I much appreciate your presence here. Mary would say hi if she were here, through me. Big days ahead.

[lmao (lmao)]

J Graz,

This morning you wrote:

"Sadly our letter was misrepresented in a rapp to the folks in Baltimore."

You have a lot of credibility. Please don't blow it by making general statements. Who misrepresented you? What did he/she say? How do you know?

[anova (anova)]

Graz's characterization in no way stretches the limits of credibility.


Anovus

[j_graz (j_graz)]

Imao,
It has been said and witnessed by dozens of people that in private raps after bible college classes that 'we have disaffiliated' and have 'left our covering' becuase we 'no longer want the cross' bla bla bla bla bla

Those who tell these things are the bible college students that we are the most concerned about and will not divuldge their names.

It is with those folks in mind that I am on this board.

mawagaman@yahoo.com

[j_graz (j_graz)]

Jim Faucetts notes posted on the 'Somebody Took Notes" thread are substantiated word for word quotes.

[truefriendofthetruth (truefriendofthetruth)]

I am not a member of Greater Grace Church of Westfield or any other affiliate ministry of GGWO. I am an unbiased listener to these discussions. I have interviewed many members of the Westfield Church because I have many friends in different places that are seeking the truth and are standing for the truth.

On Sunday April 24th of 2005 Pastor Wayne Hogarth of Westfield Massachusetts’ with a church full spoke. He explained and gave the whole story holding nothing back from the church. You can read in his letter below the position the elders and he took. The elders of the church were unanimously in support as well as His entire church was blessed that their elders and their Pastor were and are accountable, transparent, and revealed humility to tell the truth in love.

He offered the letter to anyone who wanted the letter and also I was told he said “I will not leave the church until every person has their questions answered today.” He spent the entire day at the church ministering and answering any and all questions. He also took comments and suggestions from the Church from everyone about these matters. We need to give credit where credit is due this is the way to do an open forum with a local church.

Twice a year every dollar in the church budget is shown on overhead screens to the entire church and the books are completely open to people to ask questions and make comments. They also hand out in printed form the budget of every dollar taken in with every cent spent or that is accounted for at the meeting so people to take home and review it and ask any questions or make suggestions.

For the past ten years, Pastor Hogarth and the elders from several different witnesses in the church who I have interviewed was already operating and taught the corrected doctrines of the Sandy Cove Covenant and was a key developer of the different corrections that were needed in GGWO because the elders and he were already practicing the proper doctrines and taught them previously with the church, at the Bible college extension school within their local church and at numerous speaking engagements worldwide.

This is the letter that he wrote to the Elders of GGWO Maryland

Greater Grace of Pioneer Valley

848 North Road

Westfield, Ma. 01085

April 23, 2005

To all the Elders and Pastors in Greater Grace of Baltimore:

I open this letter with greetings and loving salutation to Pastor Stevens and to the board of elders. It is in regards to all of the ongoing developments and significant changes in the ministry that prompts me to write this letter. I begin by stating my love for Pastor Stevens and to all the men who have served God faithfully all these years. In addition I would like to take this time to congratulate Pastor Schaller for being voted in as chief elder of Greater Grace in Baltimore.

I have spent much time in prayer and contemplation concerning the complexities of these developments. I now would like to share my heart on these matters as well as some decisions that I have reached. I believe we have done precious work together, filled with many souls coming to Christ and many lives have been touched, so many great things to praise God for. It has been a privilege to co-labor in the Lord together these many years.

Yet there are some concerns as of late which are being discussed among leaders and congregation members across the entire ministry. Some of these concerns reflect personal issues, and others, decision making processes. I would like to say on a personal note I love all the men of this ministry, and that I view the current situation not to be a problem with precious individuals, but rather a problem of current policy and practice within the ministry.

The Bible clearly charges us to speak the truth in love (Eph. 4:15). Many people have no problem with love, but fall short concerning the truth. Some have no problem with the truth, but struggle with love. I believe, like in any family, there will be compounding problems, but through God, there can be resounding resolutions. Regardless of the numerous problems and troubles which we have been facing these many months together, the answer lies in one simple conclusion— accountability, transparency and humility before God and men.

Please keep in mind that these things are to be taken in a spirit of edification, constructively from a lifelong friend of this ministry. There are many hurts and cries around the world that should weigh heavy on our hearts as men of God. These hurts and cries are a direct result of the disregard of three fundamental imperatives: First, the need for complete accountability; second, the need for absolute transparency; third, the need for genuine humility.

Accountability puts the checks and balances in place to protect us all, leaders and followers together in Christ. For example, presenting the finances semiannually before the congregation is financial accountability. Every single person’s contribution to the offering, regardless of amount, must be esteemed with the highest regard, for the reason that it is their church as much as it is ours. In addition we need to be accountable morally, and in our ethical practices. Accountability appropriately guides the ship to safe harbor through all the storms we will face in life. No man of integrity fears accountability because it provides safety for all. Someone cannot be expected to be accountable to a system that is without accountability.

Next, there is transparency, which is often avoided because of it’s attached stigma of shame and embarrassment. When we fail, and as human beings we often do, we need to be, as leaders, the ultimate example for the Lord. We need to repent and ask for forgiveness like a child before God and men. We need to bare our hearts with honesty and clarity so the weakest person in our congregation would not stumble. "…All things are naked and open unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do" (Heb 4:13). It is easy to say, as a leader, "follow me", but true transparency means facing, admitting, and changing our wrongdoings for the health and the spiritual well being of the body. Allow me to humorously state that we sometimes express issues to the body as though they were three year old children, incapable of comprehension and unable to deal with heavy matters. On the contrary, they are well taught, well furnished men and women of God that could lift up our arms, if we allow them, in the heavy dilemmas that we face as leaders. We owe them the entirety of the truth so they cannot become victims of the air in speculative reasoning.

I have saved the greatest of these things, humility, for last because as we all know God resists the proud but gives more grace, or in our case, "Greater Grace," to the humble. Humility opens the door for victory and harmony within all three. I don’t speak as an accuser, but as a heartbroken friend. I ask all of you, and anyone else who receives this letter, to forgive me if I have ever failed to be humble in any of these areas. This brings me to the conclusion and directive of this letter.

Many of the body members in Westfield have become aware of the events of last several years through family and friends in Baltimore. I have tried desperately to preserve the honor and dignity of the leadership in Baltimore. As you well know, I came to Springfield ten years ago when this body faced serious challenges concerning immorality, mismanagement of finances, and a lack of accountability which resulted in backbiting, dissension, and ultimately, wounded body members and chaos. Sadly and regrettably, they are hearing the very same echoes ten years later, this time coming from their "home base".

I now have to inform my church because I am being inundated with questions. I must live and hold true to the honor code and values that I have upheld before all of you, and have expressed throughout this letter. As you know, I say what I mean and mean what I say. This creed now compels me, in a loving and truthful way, to disclose these matters to the Westfield church. Regretfully, in our community, the name "Greater Grace" has suffered grave reproach, not because of the glorious privilege of bona fide persecution, but rather the travesty of Baltimore’s indiscretions.

It is necessary at this point to address the matters of Pastor Paul. Before God, I am continuously praying for him and his entire family. When he fell, he was reprimanded on several occasions over a three year period, and yet continued to preach, as well as taught the marriage classes. This was wrong. Also, the very large sum of money that was paid without going through the insurance company, to compensate the damaged parties was taken directly out of the general fund without the body’s knowledge and consent. This may have been legally permissible but ethically questionable. Moreover, to go more than three years of not defining these issues, when they became public knowledge throughout the world, is wrong.

Next, concerning Pastor Stevens whom we all love dearly, he deserves our full support in all his medical concerns. I feel, however, that the degree of his illness should have been made public to the body. Perhaps we could have done more to protect his dignity in his most needy and vulnerable state.

Along with this, the appointment of Pastor Rodger Stenger as chief elder although reached by a bona fide vote of the elders and confirmed by the body, was handled in an inappropriate process resulting in his resignation. I feel pastor Rodger displayed courage and integrity throughout the entire proceedings.

I want to make it clear that I am not acting in haste. I have spent hours and hours on the phone. I have flown in to help and plead with the elders to make things right. I have gone alone and with witnesses to each elder individually and to the board as a whole (Mt. 18). I have begged leaders to say these things are wrong, and to give hope that these matters will be resolved now or in the near future. I was told lovingly by a very dear and close friend, and a key leader, who is very close to these matters that I was being "moral" and not "spiritual" by focusing in on these matters, but I believe we can be both.

I want to thank Pastor Tom Powell and Doctor Ken for their sacrificial labor in putting together the Sandy Cove conference. I am compelled to express my heart that the Sandy Cove conference was given by God and was needed because of vulnerabilities that exist within our ministry. Sandy Cove was a breath of healthy reform to enable us to correct some of these matters so we can go on together, enjoying our precious ministry. God has given us a beautiful ministry, body life, discipleship, and worldwide outreach. Please understand that I am not forgetting any of the precious and beautiful things that we have counted dear together all around the world over the years. Although Sandy Cove was embraced by a majority, it is not currently being implemented by the present administration. Therefore, we remain in the same dilemma, unable to correct the things that have brought serious trouble to our ministry.

In an effort to protect our flock from harmful policies, Pastor Marshall and I, along with all the leaders in Westfield have decided to change our name. The depth and the future of our affiliation will be based on Baltimore’s response to all of the doctrinal issues discussed in this letter and the Sandy Cove covenant. We are, however, changing the nature of our relationship. Pastor Schaller has beautifully said that some may be under and some may be beside, but we all serve the Lord together. At this point, we choose to be beside, following the leading and guiding of the Lord. This should not be viewed as a step back but as a step forward into a greater work, continuing the precious legacy that we have been given . We still love these men and leave a door open for fellowship. That is my true heart, no matter what the air may suggest. We are praying for our families and friends that God would bring in guidance and correction with great healing at this time. Before we can consider fully separating ourselves from Greater Grace, we want to give Pastor Schaller, whom I love with every bone in my body, and count him as a dear and special friend, the opportunity to publicly correct these matters in Baltimore that have brought us to this unfortunate place. We are praying for you. As a personal suggestion, if anyone has been hurt or has left Baltimore, now is the time to diligently seek them out and restore the brokenhearted.

I realize that you may feel that some have expressed their concerns sharply. However, I am speaking to my friends, whom I love and treasure. I believe God that these matters can be dealt with by His amazing grace. Please do not hear my words in a stereotype or think of me in any camp, rather receive my words as coming from one friend to another friend. I know the type of friends you are, and know you will take my words to heart.

In closing, I thank you for your consideration and receiving this letter in the gracious spirit that my entire heart intended.

In Calvary’s Love,
Pastor Wayne Hogarth

[arguendo (arguendo)]

I think this thread is also important for people that are new to FACTNet to read.

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

The following is a letter that Pastor David Michaud in the Netherland sent to Baltimore last month:
--------------------------------------------

Dear P. Schaller &amp; elders,





I have been with GGWO for almost 30 years now, and in January 2005 have became fully aware of the various unethical events and methods of operation as a ministry that have taken place in the past years.

I refer to, of course, the content the many letters you have received from Pastor’s Morin, Graziano, Prokop, Ellis, Powell and others. I am in full agreement with them and have been waiting to see a step towards real change and till now have not. This was GGWO’s real opportunity to make things right with the Lord and in our testimony to believers worldwide, former members, and the world. Unfortunately that opportunity to start with a clean slate was missed. A thorough repentance remains undone and halfhearted with many former members and dear friends wounded in the background over the many years. The question still echoes in minds of many here “How could such things happen in such a ministry as this one with such a teaching emphasis on wisdom, meekness, purity, integrity, mercy, etc. and for so many to be snared in this mindset and not want to know the truth and come clean with God, but to remain naïve.”



As a result of this I am ceasing my affiliation with GGWO. The five elders in Grace Christian Fellowship Woudenberg, The Netherlands and I voted unanimously to no longer continue in affiliation. I hold no grudge or bitterness but there is a shock &amp; sadness at the same time about this matter.



Corrie &amp; I are thankful for the many years we have spent together, for there were many good and deep spiritual times. In spite of the “behind the scenes” error that has been ongoing for, I still don’t fully know how many years, God has used this ministry and most of the teaching from Pastor Stevens in a very deep way in our lives. I will not let Satan rob me of the deep work of Christ that happened over the past 30 years of my life, therefore I will not be bitter but better as a more discerning Christian and servant to others in the future.



We have learned from both the good and the bad examples in GGWO over the past years, and for that I am thankful to God. There remains love in our hearts for you and we will continue to pray for you, even though we are no longer part of your organization or mindset. The church here and myself will continue to consider ourselves friends to those we have known and loved for so many years, if we will be mutually received as friends. But as far as governance is concerned we are no longer under or part of GGWO and its affiliates.



In Christ,







David &amp; Corrie Michaud &amp; family

Elders:

Jan Lakeman

Wim Schiphorst

Jim Roberts

Martin Schreurs

Herman Askamp

[ericlaw (ericlaw)]

Pastor Michaud said that Baltimore has been contacting elders in dissaffiliated ministries to start their own churches. We know this is true based on what happened in FL.

[escaped (escaped)]

this is true...happening in a lot of places. they are...ooops

God bless everyone and All

Tiny Time (movie the scrooge)