Play Fundamentallist Bingo

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

A Fundamentalist is a born-again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who--

1. Maintains an immovable allegiance to the inerrant, infallible, and verbally inspired Bible.

2. Believes that whatever the Bible says is so.

3. Judges all things by the Bible and is judged only by the Bible.

4. Affirms the foundational truths of the historic Christian Faith:
A. The doctrine of the Trinity;
B. the incarnation, virgin birth,
C. substitutionary atonement,
D. bodily resurrection and glorious ascension,
E. and Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ;
F. the new birth through regeneration by the Holy Spirit;
G. the resurrection of the saints to life eternal;
H. the resurrection of the ungodly to final judgment and eternal death;
I. the fellowship of the saints, who are the body of Christ.
J. Practices fidelity to that Faith and endeavors to preach it to every creature.
K. Exposes and separates from all ecclesiastical denial of that Faith, compromise with error, and apostasy from the Truth.
L. Earnestly contends for the Faith once delivered.

If you hold to ALL of these, please report to your local chapter of Fundamentalists Anonymous. They have just the program for you!

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">If you do not hold to ALL of these tenets, congratulations! You are not a menace to society--you can not be classified as an intolerant religious bigot--you are ABSOLUTELY NO DANGER to those who practice other religions, who hold to other equally valid belief systems, or none at all. YOU HAVE AN OPEN MIND!</FONT>

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">(And in all probability anyone can throw anything they like in there!)</FONT>

Hi. My name is Jim. I am a fundamentalist.

(Hi, Jim. Welcome to F.A.!)

[Roberta (151.203.163.174)]

Good Afternoon Jim?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Halleluia, I'm no longer a Fundamentalist! Praise God for whom all Blessings flow! FREE AT LAST, Free at last, Ise can now think for my self Massa Jim. My mind is now open to God and His Holy Spirit and what HE wishes, not what MAN says.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Another one bites the dust.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Sounds like a kid having a tantrum...c'mon Jim, chill out. This is beneath you.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.31)]

Is there such a thing as an authoritative definition of 'fundamentalist'?

[Anonymous (68.33.132.7)]

C'mon Jim, you ARE having meltdown. I actually prefer it when you're just P.O.'d. I don't mean this in a sarcastic way, bro, but you need a nap! I need one, myself!

Boss Martian

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

1 entry found for fundamentalist.
Entry: die-hard
Function: noun
Definition: enthusiast
Synonyms: bitter-ender, dyed-in-the-wool, extremist, fanatic, fogy, fundamentalist, intransigent, mossback, old liner, praetorian, pullback, reactionary, right, right-winger, rightist, standpat, standpatter, stick-in-the-mud, Tory, true blue, ultraconservative, zealot
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.5)
Copyright &copy; 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

he hasn't taken his pill today

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Yeah. I wish he would...he's no fun at all like this.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Funny how all you libs go puritan when us "punk ass pieces of fecal matter" attempt a little oddball humor. Since we have both Boss and RJ on board:

Can anyone pick a number from above that either of them possibly subscribe to?

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.31)]

Roberta, That definition is a riot. The dictionary I looked in was much closer to Jim's; but of course not exactly the same.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

I laughed too...I'd never heard it put quite that way.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Yeah, I guess I'd be more fun if I'd just chill out and say how bad Carl's hair looks.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Let's see, point 1 is definitely out on both counts...

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Really? ARE you a punk ass piece of fecal matter?
Interesting usage.
Well, I'll say this for ya, you are an oddball pal.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Points 2 and 3 are out as well...

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

They both find J,K, L offensive...

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.31)]

I may not match up in all points here, Jim; but I'm a lot closer to this than I am to whatever the 'official' definition of 'liberal' would be. I'm really a modified conservative. I'm aiming at truth and sometimes I miss. Paul said he hadn't really made it yet also. And I sure ain't comparing myself to him.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

68.33.60.157 those are labels which Boss the brother who loves Jesus actually has chosen to give me...you must be new here.

[Anonymous (68.33.60.157)]

Nope, just don't have time to keep up and read all the crap...er...fecal matter.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

We know 4.I is a matter of personal taste and preference and not an ESSENTIAL so that's out and we've had no commitment or indication from either on 4.A-H although I've got a sneaky suspicion that neither would hold that there could be a "literal" hell.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Jim...couldn't tell if your posts today were humor or not...still not so sure...*LOL*

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Ramble on....

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Well if the foo..no, if the shoe fits

[Dave Drago (68.91.72.199)]

Hello Jim I am a fundamentalist

[Anonymous (68.33.132.7)]

Listen Jim, I am definitely NOT the first between the two of us to start name calling. I really don't care to do so, but there are PLENTY of posts where you have flat told people that they're full of ****, satan worshippers, WHINERS and many others. So, don't question my Christian brotherhood, hoss, unless you're willing to take a long, hard look at your own. I must have made QUITE an impression on you if that rather minor insult is sticking with you.

I posted Wednesday night, but I might have been too sleepy to post it properly, that tomorrow was a new day and I would be civil as long as you and Nic did as well. As I said, I have not set the tone for this conversation, you have. You appear to be having a temper tantrum right now. I suppose I should take it as a badge of honor that I have had this much of an effect on you.

I will say this, you may be used to bullying people and having them run away scared. It won't happen here, not with me and not with some others on this board. If someone had stood up to Carl Stevens at some point and said "ENOUGH", instead of letting a self centered narcissist continue to run over people, then maybe GGWO wouldn't be in the mess it's in right now. But it is a new day for you, Mistah Jim, just as a new day is coming for Carl.

As far as my beliefs, I think that I've shared them quite openly. I don't think that I need you to provide me with a pre-determined list for me to choose from. It's that controlling nature of yours coming through again. I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Saviour, because I was a SINNER (as opposed to being someone that is now saved, but will still sin, in spite of my best efforts. If I could do it myself, I wouldn't need Jesus, now would I?) I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and I believe in the Trinity. I have personally experienced God moving in my own life. And I love you, Jim, but loving you does NOT mean letting you walk all over me. You will not bully me. And since you only seem to understand and respond to harsh language and that is your accepted mode of communication, I will conduct our conversations in a manner that you can easily understand. There will be absolutely ZERO double standard here, Mistah Jim, at least concerning tone and language. And please use another line of reasoning instead of questioning my Christianity since I have been a little harsh with you (" 68.33.60.157 those are labels which Boss the brother who loves Jesus actually has chosen to give me...you must be new here."). You have openly bragged about being harsh with people yet you are a Christian. What's the difference, Mistah Jim? Next thing you'll be claiming that I'll get tongue cancer for daring to criticize you.

You called me a whiner. Who's whining now?

Take a Ritalin, brother.

Boss Martian
A Big Meanie Doo Doo Head Who Won't Play Nice With Mistah Jimmy

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Count me in Jim. I'm a fundamentalist too!

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

1 entry found for fundamentalist.
Entry: die-hard
Function: noun
Definition: enthusiast
Synonyms: bitter-ender, dyed-in-the-wool, extremist, fanatic, fogy, fundamentalist, intransigent, mossback, old liner, praetorian, pullback, reactionary, right, right-winger, rightist, standpat, standpatter, stick-in-the-mud, Tory, true blue, ultraconservative, zealot
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.5)
Copyright &copy; 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Boss, this bud's for you man. If you got cancer of the tongue you could still type right? I am working with the information you've provided. Got it? Go back and read what I said. I didn't say you were a whiner, I said you were employing the tactic of attack and whine. I didn't call you a name. Now, on the other hand I did call Dan Huisjen, (I think it was him) a knucklehead. I think that is the worst name I've ever called anybody on this board, and that was not malicious. I did not create the above list. For source--try google. But I think that most folks on here who call themselves evangelicals would not have any problem with it. You may want to consult with your pet catfish, the other Bible scholar.

And Dan, if you are out there reading. I did not mean that you "literally" had knuckles on your head.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Yes he did....really...literal knuckles...*LOL*
Gotta watch you literalists every minute.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.31)]

I used to press my knuckles hard against my younger brother's head when we were kids. I've learned not to do that. I'm sure my wife would be appreciative if she knew. When I was a child...

I'll never understand how a man can abuse his wife. Aren't people afraid that they'll get back what they dish out? How can they live with that? They must be some of the most insecure people going.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Fundamentalist Muslims are defined this way too...interesting.


1 entry found for fundamentalist.
Entry: die-hard
Function: noun
Definition: enthusiast
Synonyms: bitter-ender, dyed-in-the-wool, extremist, fanatic, fogy, fundamentalist, intransigent, mossback, old liner, praetorian, pullback, reactionary, right, right-winger, rightist, standpat, standpatter, stick-in-the-mud, Tory, true blue, ultraconservative, zealot
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.5)
Copyright &copy; 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Boss, it isn't your being a meany doodoo head that troubles me. And I don't play nice either.

You are kinda like the guy who slept at the Holiday Inn Express and now you think you're a brain surgeon.

You've been a Christian for 23 years and the only book outside the Bible that you ever read as a "commentary" on the Bible was written by the most liberal, unbelieving, Christ denying person in America. C'mon man, what does that say about you? And every nonchristian skeptical position that crops up--you side with it. And you claim that nobody can really know anything. You're a relativist and you don't even see the implications of the thinking.

I am not trying to be mean and hateful--but this is my complaint about your thinking: You--as I have read on other threads--know quite a bit about C-130 Hercules aircraft. You've been trained in that. What would you think if I came up to you on the jobsite and said, "Hey Boss, yer an idiot, I saw a picture of a Hercules C130 once and read a story about C130s written by guy who works on Volkswagens, and it was in comic book form. You have no idea what yer doin' on that plane." You would rightly say, "Get the hell out of my workspace knucklehead, before you cause some real damage." To me you are like that.

You've read a single book--and that by a real twit--and you think your theological views are just as valid as anyone elses'. Because of course to you the study of theology and the Bible, along with exegesis and application takes no skill at all, anyone can do it. And of course because this is America, anyone can be a theologian. What if in this America, anyone could practice law, medicine, or work on C130s without any qualifications at all?

Now before people start their rants--I am not denying the priesthood of all believers, nor am I negating the responsibility of all Christians to read and apply Scripture to themselves and their families. I am saying that not everyone is a teacher, an expositor of scripture--and that these callings take just as much training, skill and expertise as any other profession, if not more so.

[Roberta (151.203.163.174)]

Am remembering my favorite commentaries...

Matthew Henry
Jospeh Parker
Erik Sauer
F B Meyer
Jamieson, Fausset &amp; Brown
Jessie-Penn Lewis
Barne's Notes on the New Testament
F.F. Bruce
John MacArthur

Well...those were a few of the commentaries I had.

[Anonymous (64.12.117.20)]

Sigh..besides having no idea whatI believe at this point, I still have many unanswered questions. Can someone please tell me what a "believe priesthood" is. Tell me in laymans terms if you can.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.31)]

Someplace Peter refers to all of us believers as a royal priesthood. I think it just means we are in a position to be used by the Spirit to lead others to the Father. Part of the point is that we don't need 'PASTAH' to be between us and God, or even at that old beamer cushion.

[Anonymous (67.243.131.198)]

Jim, Jim, Jim,

As long as anyone isn't messing with the C-130s that I'M responsible for, go for it. There are MANY operators of C-130s whose maintenance practices and methods for flying are quite different than my own. It's their airplane and they can do what they want with it. The planes that I maintain and fly on, I have something to say about.

Further, the maintenance and flying of the C-130, as with just about all aircraft, is a pretty exact science. Every aspect of the "care and feeding" of the C-130, except for the psychological factors of those who fly it (and there is pretty good TESTABLE data on that) is SCIENTIFIC, TESTABLE, WITH PHYSICAL, MEASURABLE results. In other words, if the C-130 runs out of fuel in the air, it will crash. Every time. There are no differing schools of thought on that. There are no Fumists, who absolutely believe that the engines will keep turning regardless of whether there is any fuel present. Actually, there may have been a few, but they're dead! You can set up a scientific experiment with the C-130 and get physically measurable results. This is the same, for the most part, in medicine and to a lesser extent in secular law.

Comparing my knowledge of the C-130 to Christianity, or Judaism, Islam, Budhism, etc., is like comparing fish to bicycles. Like it or not, Christianity IS NOT SCIENCE! That's why they call it FAITH, Mistah Jim! The only measurable proof that we will ever have is when we die and face God. God can do anything He wants to do, from creating the universe to showing up at my house tomorrow morning for breakfast. But I cannot and you cannot offer any scientific, testable, predictable cause and effect scenario for how God is going to act other than what is written in the Bible and most importantly, faith.

SO WHAT if you have read every commentary known to man and written a hundred of your own. You are no closer to a true understanding of God than anyone else who believes and has faith in the Father, Son or the Holy Spirit. I keep asking you why are there so many Christian denominations, schools of thought, etc., each professing to "having it right"? Which denominations have it all wrong and which have it all right? If it were scientifically possible, we could set up an experiment and note the results. Be aware that I am excluding abusive behaviour from this, as abuse is somewhat easy to test and show the results of, although I admit there can be some grey areas.

Each of those commentaries that you hold so dear are only opinions that CANNOT BE TESTED UNTIL WE'RE DEAD. Period. Now, any opinions on the C-130 that you may have, other than "I like it" or " I don't like it", I can test those and show you the concrete results. The only CONCRETE results we see concerning people's faith is that faith based marriages seem to do better as a rule, along with children from a faith based home, etc. Please note that no particular faith seems to do significantly better than others. Do the Methodists, or the Baptists do better at raising children than charismatic church's? Perhaps, but that is testable.

They don't call it faith for nothing, Mistah Jim. Now I don't doubt that you've read and studied A LOT on Christinity. Just reading and understanding DOES NOT MEAN that you AUTOMATICALLY GET IT RIGHT. For each and every commentary that you agree with, there are just as many that you don't. A lot of people believe oppositely from you. You seem to be upset that just because you have read a lot of OPINIONS, people don't just go "Wow, that Jim Faucett sure has read a lot. He MUST be right!" Brother, I know the difference between opinion and fact. That's some of that Carl Stevens voodoo crap again.

It also never ceases to amaze me that people will use the argument that "a lot of people" or "most people" or "a lot of SMART people" hold a certain opinion, so it must be right. For a time, Britney Spears was the most popular entertainer on Earth. MOST people thought she was a great talent. By that standard, she must have been some sort of great artist. I don't think I would argue that Britney Spears was anything more than reasonably attractive and moderatly talented. I don't think you will see the Complete Works Of Britney Spears studied in music appreciation class in 100 years.

To close, let's compare apples to apples, and oranges to oranges. C-130 maintenance and operations are totally different than Christianity.

One last thing, Mistah Jim. I don't define myself by my job. I happen to have a job, and because of it, I have certain characteristics, but I am just me, a middle aged guy with a silly handle on a forum.

And don't try to Bill Clinton me over my insult to you. You revel in it Mistah Jim and no amount of red letters and adding in of Scripture is going to pretty up your beligerent attitude and whining. You are deliberately hurtful to others and will walk over others if they let you. You will not walk over me. But please keep trying. Shoot Mistah Jim, I think you've written more lengthy posts concerning me than Martin L.! I know I chap your rear end more than he does.

Boss Martian
Still a big doo doo head for not letting Mistah Jim walk all over him but glad to be making a difference in someone's life.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

By the way, Boss, I was an avionics chump in the Navy on P3s.

And "the" faith is called the "faith" because it is provable doctrine--not because it is not science. Faith in one sense is trust, but even that is not blind trust, but reasonable reliance on a body of doctrine that reveals a REAL PERSON. So my comparison is legitimate MR GENIUS.

And smart guy, theology IS called the Queen of the Sciences in classical education and it DOES require quite a bit of technical skill. It has this title because ALL knowledge, skill and ability comes from God as Creator--even the stuff you do on the C 130. Theology is not some compartmentalized game of silly guessing, it is as precise as anything you do.

What I am comparing is knowledge to knowledge not faith to science.

Go get another sandwich for your lunchbox, bro, you're one short.

I really don't care what "a lot of people" or "most people" think. You reveal what you love. If you love God you immerse yourself in His revelation, His revelation is his word. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. Entiendes?

If you want to think I am trying to walk over you go ahead! You must have some kind of complex!

You've been a Christian for 23 years. It is apparent to me and probably to many others on this board that you have not invested much study in your faith. I don't care if you read one or 900 commentaries, how to books, biographies or whatever--your lack of investment in what you SAY you believe is BLOODY OBVIOUS, Bucko! What if we were to ask you how much you've spent on CDs and music over the same amount of time? You might say, "What the hell difference does that make?" It might show where your heart is, mightn't it? How many lyrics have you committed to memory? For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Why are there so many denominations? Why are there so many bad rock bands? Any idiot thinks he can play the guitar--there are very few Stevie Ray Vaughns, Jimmy Pages and B.B. Kings--there are loads of one hit wonders. And Americans are not only relativists who cannot understand a simple analogy, they are suckers who will give more credibility to the John Shelby Spongs and Robert Tiltons as they do to real pastors and teachers. Like you, many Americans are technologically advanced and spiritually, well...not. I held back.

[Anonymous (67.243.137.71)]

Jim,

The only place God's Word is written is the Bible, although it was physically written by men. As far as the "tech data" for Christianity is concerned, the only OFFICIAL guide is the Bible, although, as you probably have guessed, I don't believe it is iffallible and without error.

Could you please tell me where in the Bible Jesus instructs us to read commentaries? Perhaps one of the Apostles wrote something on it and I missed it. As I have stated in several posts, commentaries are just someone's opinion. The author may have a Ph.D in religious studies from a prestigious seminary and may have been a pastor for many years, but it is just opinion. The author gathers the material, digests it, and reaches a conclusion. Using the exact same materials, different authors have come to markedly different conclusions. Look no further than the departed Martin L.. You and he could not be much further apart in your views if one of you was an atheist. Yet you have studied the same materials. I think Martin was ordained through a seminary of some sort, but I could be wrong. Shelby Spong is an ordained minister and so is Jerry Falwell. How did they come to such differing conclusions?

What you want people to do, me included is to read the books on your recommended list and come to the same conclusions you have reached. Unless I missed something, you have stacked the list only with authors you agree with.

Jim, I don't agree with you. I don't believe in this legalistic interpretation of the Bible you have, I don't think that slavery is acceptable at any time under any circumstances, I plain don't believe as you do. The difference between you and me is that as long as you don't try to force your beliefs on me, I don't lose one minutes sleep worrying about what you believe. It seems to drive you crazy that anyone could have a different belief system than you. And I am beginning to wonder why I am wasting my time justifying my beliefs to you.

On Judgement Day, I will be held accountable for my beliefs. Not by you, but by God. Unlike you, I am not trying to convince anyone that my beliefs are the only truth. My beliefs are the only truth for ME.

Should I be impressed at how many commentaries you have read? I'm not. Won't ever be. If you want to impress me, tell me about a time, any time, where you have given a comforting word to anyone. That would impress me, because you are hard and cold and proud of it.

I am saved. Period. I love Jesus and Jesus loves me. Period. I can think for myself and really don't need you or any of the long list of authors that you have on your list to tell me how to think and worship. I am not missing a single thing by not reading commentaries. I read my Bible. I'm still seeking, but I have already been to a church (thankfully changed) filled with people like you. I left it behind and haven't looked back. If what you're doing works for you, great. Just be aware that no matter how much you rant and rave, it won't change me. God can and does, but you don't speak for God. I know that attitude comes from being under Carl, but it's tiresome, nonetheless.

There are some people on this board that are VERY impressed with your reading and your fire and brimstone brand of theology. They are your people, hang with them. This board isn't all about you, no matter how many threads you start, so I will continue to read and post, as I've stated before, because of concerns for people under the control of people like yourself.

Boss Martian

[Anonymous (70.16.0.138)]

ok boys..time out~!!

[Anonymous (70.16.0.138)]

AND THE WINNER IS.................

[Maria T (70.16.0.138)]

"BOSS MARTIAN~!!"

Sorry Jim, but I have to agree with 90 percent of what he said, and I too have seen you attack others on here even more radical and/or hateful than I did when sorely provoked.

You get on tangents and don't let go, we do love ya here on the forum, Jim, but sometimes why just can't people "LET JESUS WIN" instead!!!???

I forgot to sign my 2 above posts.
Maria T

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

Boss Martian asks:
"Could you please tell me where in the Bible Jesus instructs us to read commentaries?"
2Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Eph 4:11,12 And he gave some....teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.

Commentaries are written by teachers, scholars who have studied the bible and the original languages in a depth that the average person does not. Just because they don't always agree on everything does not mean that they are not needed. No one can understand all of the bible correctly just by reading it himself, because it is not a simple book. And most commentaries agree on the essential doctrines.


"My beliefs are the only truth for ME".

Boss M, there is not one truth for you and one for me and one to suit each individual.
John 4:16 I am the way, the truth, and the life
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth, thy word is truth

The only truth is through the Word, rightly divided, and not your private interpretation.

AND, if anyone fits your description of "hard and cold and proud of it", it is YOU. To a T.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Nic, qaccording to you, how does the "true" Christian define "rightly divided"?

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

I will use my own advice and defer to a Bible scholar, John MacArthur, and his commentary on that verse (2Tim 2:15).

rightly dividing: Just as trades such as carpentry, masonry, and Paul's trade of leather working and tentmaking demanded exactness, biblical interpretation demands the highest level of precision and accuracy. Anything less is shameful.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

That's not the answer I was looking for, but ok.

[Dave Carson (65.234.189.188)]

The difference between Falwell, Spong, et al. is a difference in the presuppositions with which they read the "tech manual." If the technician decides most of the manual really doesn't apply and he can do the maintenance based on the way he feels, then the passengers and crew are in for a world of hurt. Almost reminds me of Aeroflot http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif (but they had an excuse because they were drunk.)

Sorry to butt in. I used to design parts for B-1s, F-14s, and Blackhawks in my pre-TBS/GG life (also drove a red nuclear sub around the Idaho desert, but that's another story.) Can I play in this sandbox?

[Dave Carson (65.234.189.188)]

Oh yes, forgot to add. I am a fundamentalist (although Jim would probably consider me an Amyraldian heretic http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif).

[Anonymous (67.243.137.71)]

Nic,

I should have been a little clearer in the "truth" comment I wrote above. Two days with another to follow of rebuilding the suspension on my TransAm with another day at it tomorrow has made me let my guard down against Fundametalist snipers. I must be "categorical and precise", much like a lawyer, to deal with you guys.

Precisely what I mean is that I have found what I believe to be the truth. Unlike you and Jim, I really don't care if my beliefs line up with yours. I pray many times a day and frequently it is for understanding of God's Will for my life. At no time while reading either yours or Jim's posts have I felt like I have it wrong concerning MY faith and my relationship with God. If you two were representative of all of Christianity, and thank Holy God in His Divine Mercy that you aren't, I would have given it up long ago. In short, if I wasn't so strong in MY convictions, if I didn't even KNOW God, you would have run me off from God. I do not meant that as an attempt to make you feel guilty and I know you wouldn't even if I did, but it's a fact.

I came from a church background that was narrow minded and traded in guilt and fear.They shared Jim's belief that slavery is Godly. Now THAT is a big deal with me, since I woke up, and a big reason why I left the Southern Baptist church as a whole. (I wonder how Jim would feel if HE was a slave. He could really put his money where his mouth is, then.) Now I'll be the first to admit that I have reason to feel guilty now and again, and I do have some fears, but I don't feel one shred of guilt or fear concerning your and Jim's take on Christianity and my lack of interest in it.

In my "regular" life, I avoid people like you and Jim like the plague. I have frequently slammed the door in the face of people, both figuratively and literally,that try to force their legalistic theology on me.It doesn't make me happy or feel superior, but I'm just not interested and don't like dealing with it. I consider this exchange the price I pay for being on FACTnet, which ain't about this sort of thing, really. It's about trying to stop one manipulator and hopefully learning enough to stop manipulators before they start. Hey, I'm saving you guys a lot of time by letting you know I'm not interested. You can spend your time on someone who CAN be manipulated. I can't quote Scripture like you two, because I read the Bible to learn, not to beat somebody with it. But for each verse you use to beat me with, I can, given time, rebut it with a verse or two of my own. To be quite honest, I'm wondering if the Biblical accounts of the Pharissees weren't written in the last few months because the accounts seem to be referring to you two. But I don't view my reading of the Bible in that light. What's the point of going back and forth with you on Scripture. It is meaningless and a pastime for people who have to be right all the time. I have things to do that are more important to me. (Although I am definitely thinking I may have just told you a lie with the amount I post on here. NOW, I feel guilty!) I don't have to be right, just right for me.

If I wasn't so interested in Greater Grace and Carl's crap, I wouldn't even be here. I rejected the type of theology you two espouse a long time ago. I never looked back.

I have an interest finding out more about God. I am reading a book right now called "A History of God". It's in my car right now, or I would tell you the author is. It is DEFINITELY not something you would approve of, nor would Jim. I'm sure Jim will pop tall and tell how false and terrible it is, so wait for the review. I don't have an interest in learning more about your brand of theology. And like I wrote to Jim, all of the commnetaries in the world are someone's opinion. OPINION. Just because you agree with it, doesn't give it the weitght of the Bible. And you already know my feelings on that (the Bible). There are MANY schools of thought on Christianity. I am doing just exactly like you and Jim with the exception of coming to the same conclusion. I am not even really that far out of the mainstream. There are many who feel just like I do. I think for myself for the most part, though.

And how many more times do I have to say it: Time will tell who is right and who is wrong. God will determine this. God. Not Nic. Not Jim Faucett. Now go try to ensnare somebody who's hurting and vulnerable into your legalistic theology. They will be a lot less trouble and much more manageable than me.

Do you guys really need me to get yourself spooled up over? Can't you just walk around angry at the secular world in general?

I'll read your response tomorrow night. For now, I need to get some sleep and hope that visions of polyurethane suspension bushings come to life don't give me nightmares. Night night.

Best Regards,

Boss Martian
"I am NOT a role model." Plus, "it never got weird enough for me".

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

Hey Boss,
What exactly is your definition of "legalistic"? It sure is one of your favorite words. Is what you call "legalistic" just people actually believing the Word of God? It is SUCH an old tired defense to cry "legalism" because you don't really know or care to know the Word.

Why do you feel that just because a verse is quoted that you are being "beaten" by it? A big strong military guy like yourself should not feel so easily intimidated. It's just the Bible! Why are you so threatened by it?

You say, "If you two were representative of all of Christianity, and thank Holy God in His Divine Mercy that you aren't, I would have given it up long ago."
I truly could say the same about you, because any brand of Christianity that is intimidated and feels "beat up" by God's Word sure is not real Christianity to me.

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

Maria T. -- there is such a thing as truth that is definable and knowable. One thing Carl Stevens is right about is that doctrine in scripture is as precise as any tech manual on any plane--he has strayed himself. You bet your sweet bippy I attack sometimes and with vigor. There is nothing in all the world wrong with that and Scripture commands both sharp rebuke and reproof--and sometimes when YOU'VE done it I have whispered an "amen!" These people are parading as Christians--they sound like Christians. But are they? Let me point anyone of you here to the New Hampshire Diocese site of the Episcopal Church USA. Look at the testimony of V. Gene Robinson. He is a gay man who left his wife and family to pursue a perverse and wicked lifestyle--and he is now a bishop in a church that claims to be Christian. He says he loves Jesus. He says he received Christ into his heart. He says God wants him to be gay. He preaches messages with evangelical fervor that rival some of the best I've ever heard. Acceptance of homosexuality by EVANGELICALS IN AMERICA is one of the most alarming trends in Christianity. It is now illegal to preach publicly against homosexuality in Canada. The devil can sound just as religious as any of us. That is why he is called an angel of light.

Boss is on here because he is enamored with a member of your church. He feels she is suffering from abuse in YOUR church--and maybe she is, I don't know. (If there is something illegal going on it needs reporting to the proper authorities) He sees Carl Stevens as an abuser, liar, charlatan, deceiver etc. He would like this lady to come out of GGWO and hopes to have some lasting relationship with her. (I am not attempting to be mean here, just realistic) I have said, and I still believe that this lady is better off in GGWO than with him. I am not trying to be cruel. I am saying that some biblical faith--even the sort inside GG--is better than being with someone who cannot completely trust God's word, thinks that all Bible study and testimony of the Church is nothing but "opinion" and that we can know no truth until we're all dead, entertains the possibility that an apostle of God is gay, thinks that a heretic who says that Christians don't sin deserves just as much credibility as orthodox believers, has invested time in reading only ONE book in 23 years of "Christianity" and that by the single greatest heretic on the continent--you're damn right Maria--I will attack that with a lot of vigor because there are people reading here who think those of us who are dissidents will throw our lot in with anybody just as long as they hate Carl Stevens--and I don't. I don't hate Carl. I appreciate my roots. I still love people inside GG and I think that for the most part they are real Christians. And to be quite honest I would much prefer the old Maria to anyone who would do a laydown for these people!

[Tim Ewert (68.166.67.71)]

Nic--

These area few of my thoughts on rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Paul was writing to Timothy in part, to encourage him to be strong and not timid or ashamed of the gospel in the midst of a church that was argumentative and contentious-- about words (2:14) and other matters. The congregation may have been embroiled in debates about the original meaning of words in the OT Scriptures. In any case the congregation was fighting about Scriptural words and therefore those who were listening were not receiving any benefits

Paul also reminded Timothy to be careful about what words he used and how he used them e.g: "Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. (1:13) and "...avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene." (2:16). Since they were not using spoken words properly it only follows that they would mishandle the written "Word of Truth."

Rightly dividing the Word of Truth in my view has at its core the goal of benefitting the believers. Since Timothy's church was "wrangling" about Scriptural words, no one was benefitting and the faith of some people was beginning to collapse.

So, Paul is telling Timothy to handle the Word of Truth properly (This does include preciseness and accuracy) so there would be profitable results, among which are: reproof, correction, training in righteousness so they (we) will be prepared to do good works. Paul also mentioned to Timothy that he should preach the Word with great patience and instruction. The true Christian will "divide the Word of Truth" so that fellow believers will be prepared to do good.

An example of two people who did not "rightly divide the Word of Truth--" Hymenaeus and Philetus. They were participating in useless talking which led them away from the truth and into ungodliness. The final result was that they were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place and confused the faith of some.

[Maria T (141.157.46.56)]

Jim...its just the unrelentlessness of the arguing of each issue that sometimes gets to me. I re-read ALL of your dialogue with Boss. You both are right on different points!! Like you and I purposed to "agreeably disagree"...we do agree on some things!! I don't like these "****ing contests" that get going where nobody will give up, or back down. I too was guilty of doing that a few times, but I saw through it, it wasn't doing me or anybody else any good, and it definately doesn't honor the Lord.

I agree by the way with what you wrote about the gay person so don't fall of your chair now ok???
I believe you when you say you don't hate Carl. I myself don't hate Pastor Stevens. I too love people still inside GGWO but I think that they need to have their own verticals with God and get before Him for the direction they are to take (leave or stay). I don't read commentaries at all, they bore me.

Maria T

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

"14 Remind them of this, and warn them before God that they are to avoid wrangling over words, which does no good but only ruins those who are listening. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth. 16 Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have swerved from the truth by claiming that the resurrection has already taken place. They are upsetting the faith of some."

We do well to have another translation at hand to avoid unhelpful "KingJamesisms" like "rightly dividing" which is not understood well by modern English speakers and has nothing to do with division--he is talking about biblical exposition--here is an OT passage that explains further the task:

"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading." KJV

"They read from the book, from the law of God, translating to give the sense so that they understood the reading." NAS

What Paul is speaking against is not exegetical understanding or a debate over such understanding--he participated in exegetical debate himself (Acts 15). What Paul is speaking about is contentiousness for the sake of it--strife--having wars of words in the local assembly where we are to be like minded, speaking the same thing, leading to peace and purity in the local assembly. Paul does not condemn debate or argument in general. Note that in the church in Acts that they "devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread, and to prayers."

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

"I don't read commentaries at all, they bore me."

George Whitefield and John Wesley were converted and enriched in their faith from reading Martin Luther's commentary on the Pauline epistle to the Galatians. Their preaching led to the Great Awakening. The Great Awakening led the way for the American identity as a nation. You are, we all are Americans because somebody read a commentary.

[Anonymous (4.155.48.169)]

DIDN'T YOU HEAR JF?

She said she didn't like commentaries. Again you can't resist having to shove your line of bull down people's throats again. Nobody gives a crap about Wesley and Whitefield!! No wonder you are OFF bud!! Go read the real bible and learn to practice it. Or are you too busy trying to imitate God on here that you don't have the time!

Hypocrite!

[Anonymous (4.155.48.169)]

I should have known this was JF's thread. So typical of his pompous ass. Should have named it glory to Jim thread. As usual, tearing down RJ, and Boss, with his little twit Nic helping him out tearing down the brethren. So Jimmy boy, how do you like it now its being done to you???????

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

JF (66.90.181.249)
Friday, August 27, 2004 - 12:08 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Fundamentalist is a born-again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who--

1. Maintains an immovable allegiance to the inerrant, infallible, and verbally inspired Bible.

2. Believes that whatever the Bible says is so.

3. Judges all things by the Bible and is judged only by the Bible.

4. Affirms the foundational truths of the historic Christian Faith:
A. The doctrine of the Trinity;
B. the incarnation, virgin birth,
C. substitutionary atonement,
D. bodily resurrection and glorious ascension,
E. and Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ;
F. the new birth through regeneration by the Holy Spirit;
G. the resurrection of the saints to life eternal;
H. the resurrection of the ungodly to final judgment and eternal death;
I. the fellowship of the saints, who are the body of Christ.
J. Practices fidelity to that Faith and endeavors to preach it to every creature.
K. Exposes and separates from all ecclesiastical denial of that Faith, compromise with error, and apostasy from the Truth.
L. Earnestly contends for the Faith once delivered.

If you hold to ALL of these, please report to your local chapter of Fundamentalists Anonymous. They have just the program for you!

If you do not hold to ALL of these tenets, congratulations! You are not a menace to society--you can not be classified as an intolerant religious bigot--you are ABSOLUTELY NO DANGER to those who practice other religions, who hold to other equally valid belief systems, or none at all. YOU HAVE AN OPEN MIND!

(And in all probability anyone can throw anything they like in there!)

Hi. My name is Jim. I am a fundamentalist.

(Hi, Jim. Welcome to F.A.!)

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Closed mind, closed heart, unentreatable, sarcastic, cruel, hateful to others...yup, you're a Christian's Christian alright, Jim. Congratulations...

*groan*

[Nic (205.188.117.20)]

Mind open to any wind of doctrine, heart open to any seducing spirit, unentreatable, sarcastic, cruel, disdainful of real biblical believers, can't discern love from sentimentality, sees being 'truthful' as being 'hateful'.....yup, you're a heretic's heretic alright, Roberta. Congratulations

*groan*

[Anonymous (218.102.178.146)]

Nic, r u undead?

[Maria T (70.17.202.33)]

Jeepers, Nic...
Roberta was messing with Jim not slamming him?

Whats wrong with you? Geez you are so quick to jump all over people. You've got some real problems. And Roberta isn't open to any wind of doctrine, nor is her heart open to seducing spirits. Just because she isn't afraid to stand up for herself doesn't give you the right to keep on slamming her. I have been reading all of your posts, I can't help but think you just enjoy slamming her. I know she doesn't always use tact and finesse in her approach at times, and she can be a tad bit sarcastic at times especially when she gets her back up. The truth is, that we are ALL guilty of that. LOL I will say like Paul that I am the chief of sinners in that area. I'm not slamming her either saying that. Yeah we can all be cruel at times. This board brings out some of our adverse fleshly traits now doesn't it.

She isn't a "heretic's heretic" that is a really low blow.

Even 218 didn't care for what you wrote either.

Perhaps Nic if you went before God and asked him to show you Roberta's heart you might get an amazing wake up call. She does have a beautiful heart and whether you think she is entreatable or not, I know she is. I've talked with her and all she did was build me up in a time when I was hurting so bad. She could have slammed me. She gave me Christ which was exactly what I needed, and I thank God for her.

Funny how people that tick us off the most are generally the ones we see something of ourselves in them that we detest. Hmmmm.

it was the "groan" at the end of her post that made me know instantly she was teasing Jim in a loving way, not backing up that troll for what he wrote.

Maria T

[RJ the Heretic (151.203.163.174)]

Nic (205.188.117.20)
Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 11:40 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mind open to any wind of doctrine, heart open to any seducing spirit, unentreatable, sarcastic, cruel, disdainful of real biblical believers, can't discern love from sentimentality, sees being 'truthful' as being 'hateful'.....yup, you're a heretic's heretic alright, Roberta. Congratulations

*groan*
***************************

Nic,

What is your problem, anyway? You won't admit it, but you actually hate me. You seem to think I am the flippin anti-Christ or something. Look, get a sense of humor will you? You can't really be this boring, can you?

This may startle you, I hope you're sitting down...but I actually care about Jim, and guess what!! I actually know he cares about me. He's the irritating, obnoxious big brother I always wanted...you know the kind...the kind you drive up a wall as an obnoxious nasty little sister, that brother cares about ya but wishes would go away...*LOL*

You need to get yourself to a doctor. I think you are missing your funny bone, Nic. Because deny it all you want to, but you meant everything you wrote in this post. Get a grip, calm down, relax a little, cuz girl you're gonna blow a blood vessel if you're not careful.

[Nic (152.163.253.102)]

Yes, Roberta, it is possible I am missing my funny bone. That is often the case with Pharisees, so you should have known that.
I learned from the posts today that I am also a "little twit" and a "big god", and that did make me laugh despite the missing funny bone. I will take your advice and try to calm down though, since I can't afford to be missing blood vessels AND bones.
I am not denying that I meant what I wrote in my post. But I don't hate you, and I certainly don't think you are the anti-Christ. I do think, however, that you would give him the same respect you give every other religious leader, and would defend his right to his beliefs and his own ideas about God.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Ummm...actually that "big god" thing was supposed to be "big dog"...not sure that's better, but you know these dyslexic fingers of mine.

The way your post reads is that I should give the anti-Christ the same respect I give every other religious leader...I am supposing you I should give Jim the respect. *LOL*

I do respect Jim, not sure why you think I don't...but anyway. I disagre with him, big deal. I challenge Jim that if he wants reapect he needs to be respectful. Oftimes his words are harsh, cruel and unnecessarily so. He knows how I feel about his communications. I have no problem with what he believes as I have said before, although we disagree on points. I disagree more with how he and you berate people with it. Sorry Nic, you are terribly unkind and vicious at times. I personally do not see Christ being communicated when you do that. I see a spiteful wench who is so sure she is superior she dosen't give a damn who she hurts. And that isn't Christ and you know it, though I doubt you'd admit it.

I think Karen, Maria, Boss, Jim and anyone else here on factnet has a right to express their views, beliefs feeling etc without having to dodge the flames. We have all tried to explain our complaint to you, but have had to respond in kind to your nastiness just to be understood. I am thinking Jim may be getting the picture here, but I am not sure yet.

This isn't healthy, Nic. I don't care what you say, it isn't healthy for Christians to fight so much like this....except, I have a suspicion you do not consider many other than you and Jim even to be Christian. Is that what gives you the freedom to condescend to us?

We are Christians, even if we aren't the kind you prefer...and we expect the respect that you and Jim expect. Not so much to ask, really.

And please do something about your missing funny bone? And I know you meant every single word of the post where you called me the "heretic's heretic"...and what kind of Christian does that make you Nic?

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Yeah, as cheerleaders go, Nic is pretty dangerous...

[Anonymous (151.203.154.209)]

Hey Nic, I just bought a box of Funny Bones. I can send them to you if you want? They're really good! Love the Peanutbutter inside the chocolate! MMMMMMMMMM http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif Gotta love Drakes Cakes

[Nic (152.163.253.102)]

Hey Roberta, my post reads exactly the way it should read, I don't know why you are so obsessed with dragging Jim into everything. What I said was that I believe you would give the antichrist the same respect you give every other religious leader (whether they be christian, muslim, witches, or whatever) and that you would defend the antichrist's right to his beliefs and ideas about God. I come to that conclusion after reading your own posts, which is how I came to the heretic conclusion as well. You ask what kind of Christian that makes me? A discerning one, I would say.

You always try to group others together with you to strengthen your point..."WE this, and WE that". Why don't you just speak for yourself and let other people do the same. And please do not speak for me and tell me who I consider to be a Christian, what 'kinds' I prefer, etc., because you truly know very very little about me or you would not write the things you do.

And BTW, it WAS 'big god' that was posted, and it was not posted by you, so I guess that is one insult to me that you can't take credit for.

Yes, I will try to do something about the funny bone. I can only hope that one day I will have the sense of humor you do, and to be as tactful and kind as you are to everyone. Oh, and especially to be as tolerant of anything and anyone as you are. Something to work towards, I guess.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

This is the Fundamentalist Bingo thread. There is an "I Hate JF thread." Please go there. If you are going to stay on this one please choose all the numbers which apply to you from the list above. If you hold to all of the points, you are in danger of being intolerant, bigoted, just plain unloving, and you get your God out of a book (that is probably corrupted in some way.) You need help. You need counseling. You need a hug. You need a drink. You need someone to pinch your backside. There is a 12 step program somewhere for you, but there is a problem with step 2. It says that you must turn yourself over to a higher power, or God as you understand Him -- so be a good little fundie and skip over that one.

[Anonymous (68.33.132.7)]

Hi Nic,

At the risk of boring the studio audience, I'm going to re-post YOUR EARLIER post. That almost made sense to me! Here we go:

"Hey Boss, What exactly is your definition of "legalistic"? It sure is one of your favorite words. Is what you call "legalistic" just people actually believing the Word of God? It is SUCH an old tired defense to cry "legalism" because you don't really know or care to know the Word.

Why do you feel that just because a verse is quoted that you are being "beaten" by it? A big strong military guy like yourself should not feel so easily intimidated. It's just the Bible! Why are you so threatened by it?
You say, "If you two were representative of all of Christianity, and thank Holy God in His Divine Mercy that you aren't, I would have given it up long ago." I truly could say the same about you, because any brand of Christianity that is intimidated and feels "beat up" by God's Word sure is not real Christianity to me. "

First, thank you for the big and strong compliment. I feel like I'm getting a big butt, but I try to wear black. It's slimming and all the rage for us heretics. I am no longer in the military, though. I work FOR the military, just not IN it.

Now let me be categorical and precise. I am NOT threatened by the Bible. A wonderful book, chock full of wisdom and insight about God. I am not threatened by you or Mistah Jim, either. Both of you act as if YOU are speaking directly for God, much like our dear friend Carl Stevens. You are not speaking for God. I am very tired today and don't want to yell, but I feel I must right now. So.......

NIC, YOU DO NOT SPEAK DIRECTLY FOR GOD! HELLO, McNIC! YOU DO NOT SPEAK DIRECTLY FOR GOD!

Sorry. I'm a little hoarse right now. To continue, any view that you have of God is your opinion. You may have read a TON of commentaries. Heck, for all I know, you may read Greek and Hebrew. But you read the text, gather your data and you form an opinion. Your opinion is not testable, even though Mistah Jim insists it is. There are people that call astrology a science. Does that make it so? The only "test" is to use your discernment, admit your sin, ask forgiveness, pray your ass off for wisdom and put your FAITH on the line.

I have read my Bible, which although I do not think it is without error, it is what we are given to learn about God. Taking into consideration just the different versions of Christ arising from the dead and who was present and who was not in Mathew, Mark, Luke and John we see there are notable contradictions. (I don't subscribe to the slippery slope argument that if you disagree with any of it, you automatically reject it all, by the way.) Or how about the differing messages "love your parents" and "hate your parents". Which is it? They seem contradictory to me, but then again, what do I know. I have read two markedly different accounts of creation in Genesis. There are two accounts with significant differences concerning Noah and the Flood. I do not worship the Bible. That would be worshipping a graven image. I happen to think that's bad, (especially one with a bad toupee. Couldn't he cover himself in gold and get a dog head like that ancient Egyptian god? Now THAT'S a graven image!)

I will say it one more time, commentaries are ONLY someone's opinion of the Bible. If I started today, and read every book by Spong, or that guy Law, then you and Jim would have a FIT! Because you don't want me to read commentaries. You want me to read ONLY WHAT YOU AGREE WITH. You reject their opinion! (And the book by Spong that I HAVE read? Opinion, though I happen to agree with a lot of it.) And if I don't come to the same conclusions as you, then I'm a heretic. Because you would have us all believe that ONLY people that believe like you are Christians! You would have us believe that YOU decide who is a Christian and who isn't. Well, surprise Niczilla, God decides. That's even directly from Herr Jim. Nic, you may think that you're saved and you may actually be preordained for hell! I hope not, but you have to admit, that would be a HELL of a surprise! (Bad pun intended.)

Now about that old and tired cliche of LEGALISM. Well, I'm kind of old and a lot tired, so I guess I tend to use those cliches. Here's my explanation for legalism as it applies to Christianity. Legalism is the emphasis on the rules and regulations of the Bible in order to attempt to break someone down rather than the emphasis on grace, which is really what Christ's message is about. Jesus didn't really honor the law above all else, otherwise he would have said something like "Get some REALLY big rocks to stone that adulterous woman, for after all, the LAW says to kill her. She deserves it!" He wouldn't have made the point of getting the beam out of your own eye before getting the speck out of your brother's. He wouldn't have allowed the gathering of sticks on the Sabbath, for that was the LAW. He wouldn't have started the Jesus Diet when He said that it was more important what comes OUT of a man's mouth, rather than what goes in. After all, Leviticus has some pretty strict dietary laws and my Orthodox Jewish friends maintain a kosher kitchen based on those laws. It's right there in black and white (mainly because the red letters don't appear until the New Testament, a tradition carried on by the Apostle Jim) right there in the Bible. Jesus broke the law.

Now I don't totally reject the Law, but LEGALISTIC Fundamentalists use it not to build up anyone (except themselves), but only to try to beat people down. Please don't worry about me being intimidated by you or your legalism, Nic, but God bless you for caring. I don't know if anyone else is tired of legalism but I don't care for it. I don't know everything about Jesus (and you and Jim are likely going to share that YOU know everything about Him), but He doesn't seem like a legalist to me. Anyway, most people know that we're sinners, so why keep pointing it out? I thought we were forgiven? Well, maybe not by you, but by Jesus.

Lot's of love and best regards,

Boss Martian
"This year, I'm going to play with harder nonchalance!"

[RJ the Heretic (151.203.163.174)]

I was right Nic...you are just an insufferable prig...*LOL*...

[Nic (152.163.253.102)]

Roberta, maybe you could get all your friends to face east and pray for me

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

My Muslim friends really upset you for some reason. I find that strange, Nic. Do all your friends go to the same church, worship the same way and have the sme beliefs as you do? Are you really this upset by the fact that many of us here have many friends that are not Christians and many more that are not uptight Christians? You know, I am sure, that in Jesus' day he was considered by the uptight Jewish authority to be a heretic because he picked corn on the sabbath, ate with publicans, sinners, hung out with base fishermen and healed Romans? He was a friend to the leper, the poor and unlearned, those that would nowadays be called fringe folk and heretics? I am glad to have friends across the spectrum of society, Nic...makes me glad to know more than one type of person. Don't fall off your chair, but I actually have gay friends, black friends, Muslim friends, athiest friends, agnostic friends, uptight Christian friends, Unitarian/Universalist and Catholic friends, as well as friends that still attend GGWO, etc.

I am glad to know them. Glad to be put in a place where they are free to talk with me about life, God, heaven, politics, recipes, kids etc....whatever comes up in conversation. I nowadays must speak to them by phone or via the Net, but they are amazing people who have lived a different life than I have. I know that someday when the moment comes, I will have invested in them, loved them where they are at enough so that they will be open perhaps to hearing about Christ from me. God works in us all for the benefit of his kingdom and I am glad to be part of that. I though that when my illnesses took over so much of my life i wouldn't be able to serve like I used to, but God just gave me a new place to serve is all.

In the past few years I have had many more opportunities to speak with people who have chronic illnesses. I belong to email groups of people who build each other up and help each other get through the hard times of illness, and have had opportunities to give Christ's comfort to them, and show them that they can rest in Him that he is a saving friend, a good Father and healer of hearts.

And yes, one of these ladies was a Muslim. My friend Bonnie has taught me to be patient with people, to let the moments unfold in God's time so that the ultimate moment arrives unhurried, unhinddered, unbound with unreasonable expectations. To be ready always to be available to the Spirit for He will give the words that a particular person needs to hear when the moment is perfect. Bonnie is wise and knows I am impetuous.

Yes Nic, I will ask my Muslim friends to pray for you...I know they pray for me.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Get your burka out RJ.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Boss, Boss, Boss.
You could not find your spiritual butt with both hands. Do you think that for the 2000 years since Christ that evangelical scholars (Good Lord, lets not listen to them!) have not addressed every single issue you have raised? No, we are all hearing them for the first time from you! No, we waited for the intellectually superior Boss to come along and pop our bible-bubble! Oh damn. There goeth the neighborhood.

There are perfectly reasonable explanations for the flood epoch accounts, the resurrection stories, what the thieves said on the cross, the numbers and names of the kings, the Ussher dates, the progress of the Creation narrative, the genealogies etc. If you really want to see some attacks on Scripture, you'll find lots of friends at the site "The Skeptics Bible." You can google it yourself. They question the validity of almost every single verse in the Bible. This is precisely what I mean by you read a comic by a Volkswagen Mechanic. I have never seen anyone so determined to revel in his own ignorance as are you.

The fact of the matter is that you don't need, nor do you want more information. I am sure that Hodeoun (sp) could write a huge thesis on every single issue you raised (and maybe God will lead him to do just that, because he is not mean like me). But that would be pointless, good tweetie (AV) buddy, in my opinion. Because you are unentreatable. You have spent 23 years as a "Christian" forgiven by a "Jesus" revealed in a faulty Bible. Now that's faith. I don't even have that kind of faith.

I gotta hand it to you. And I am deadly serious, I would not trust a word of the Bible if in one place it claims to be inspired by the Holy Spirit and some "avionics chump" who'd read a comic book by a funky Episcopal Charlatan Bishop could just bring it all down on my head.

What's your formula, sunshine, for deciding what to keep and what to throw out? Do you divide into personalities and vote like the Jesus Seminar Guys?

I really love your take on the law, Boss. You just nailed that one down really well. Jesus didn't keep the law. He just walked around breaking the law like Judas freakin'Priest. That old faulty Bible again, said Jesus was born under the law. It says he could not be convinced of sin by anyone (and sin is GASP! a transgression of the Law!). Not only that but the same old faulty Bible tells us that it was his RIGHTEOUSNESS (READ "OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW") that was imputed to us at salvation, and that justification is what makes it possible for us to stand before God! So of course if you are right then Christ was not righteous at all--he did not "fulfill all righteousness" as he told that sucker cousin of his John the Baptist! And when he died, he couldn't have taken our sins on himself because he had to be righteous to do that, and if he had "trampled all over the law" then we are all still in our sins, Bossyboots! And that includes you. Oh, so sorry.

You know what Boss, I don't want you to read anything I agree with. Not one thing. In all seriousness, you're better off reading "Watership Down" or "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" or "The Guiness Book of World Records." Better yet pick something by Ludlum or Clancy. In them you will find all that you need to know about your god. (I have read all those books too, Boss, "but I really didn't like them.") You know us legalists are just no damn fun at all, Boss. And I am so glad to have learned the new definition of legalist--here was me thinking that it meant "more stuff I gotta do to get God to let me in" rather than "Who I Know is More Important Than Anything I Can Do."

You're right about one thing Boss, I really got to lighten up, and not take you seriously. I don't know your secret of how you tell the baby from the bathwater, but I am sure that if we keep listening to the Godman Boss, that we'll find out sooner or later his great secret. Meanwhile I am getting out the scissors to get rid of that pesky epistle of James! I hate to have to keep making excuses for him and Paul disagreeing with each other over works and grace! And it would be too much trouble to try to cut out all the Paul stuff (even if he might have been a bent nail, in Boss's opinion) and there is only one epistle from James--so out it goes! Thanks, Boss for that new found freedom in "Jeezuz" whoever He is.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Now if you people will get into some other threads, we are trying to do the serious work of aiding victims of fundie abuse here on this one. We are working hard at revising step two of our 12 step program, and because we are legalists, we need a number bigger than 10 because you know what that reminds us of!

So my dear fundie-deceived-legalistic-know-it-all-think-you-speak-for-God-brethren, look at the list above? You should be afraid, very afraid if you subscribe to them all--especially if you are convinced of points 1 - 3. You are a danger to your neighbors! You are a danger to those of the "religion of peace" the Muslims! You are a danger to the aboriginal peoples of the world! You are a danger to the virtue of openness and relative views of truth! You are a danger to the memory of Mother Theresa! Martin Luther King would cringe at the sight of you! Sign up now to get help or call 1-800-THUMPIN (because you know that's what you really want to do to that Bible!.)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

And fundies, please don't call these "folks of other just as valid religious persuasions as yours" names. It is ok for them, because they are the really good ones and of course you are not because you claim to have a hotline to heaven.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

JF (66.90.181.249)
Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:51 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get your burka out RJ.


Ok Jim. Tell me line by line what you found offensive and disagreeable about my post at

Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 11:09 pm

Thanks

[Anon Brief (152.163.253.102)]

Perhaps he was just giving you fashion advice, RJ. I've heard that a nice long black veil looks good on a woman...slenderizing.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

*LOL*...you could be right.

[Anonymous (24.58.114.87)]

A site that needs no black veil because it's slenderizing enough...

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/

New updates have just been added!

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

"Ok Jim. Tell me line by line what you found offensive and disagreeable about my post..."


No.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I had a vision of Nancy Reagan telling me what to say to you, so I am obeying the spirit of profissy.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

No? You find my friendship with others of other faiths offensive and won't tell me why...this makes no sense. Oh well.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

"Hey Roberta, my post reads exactly the way it should read, I don't know why you are so obsessed with dragging Jim into everything. What I said was that I believe you would give the antichrist the same respect you give every other religious leader (whether they be christian, muslim, witches, or whatever) and that you would defend the antichrist's right to his beliefs and ideas about God. I come to that conclusion after reading your own posts, which is how I came to the heretic conclusion as well. You ask what kind of Christian that makes me? A discerning one, I would say."

"I don't know why you are so obsessed with dragging Jim into everything."

Nic, this is ludicrous, I simply could understand what you were saying.

"I believe you would give the antichrist the same respect you give every other religious leader (whether they be christian, muslim, witches, or whatever)"

Jesus Himself loved people of all walks of life, Nic. The fact that you do not speaks volumes.

"I come to that conclusion after reading your own posts, which is how I came to the heretic conclusion as well."

Heretic. You'd have people like me burned at the stake for loving the people I know...funny, they nailed Jesus to a cross for doing what he did, Nic. He was called heretic, and a seditionist and radical because he actuallt healed people because of love not perjudice.

"You ask what kind of Christian that makes me? A discerning one, I would say."

I think it makes you a Pharisee that cannot look up from the bible long enough to invest in people who need Christ.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Nic...do you participate in any kind of outreach?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

We are just trying to get needed help for all these poor deceived fundies. Bashing their Bibles into their heads. How sad and what a sight! Having to go to work with bits of black bonded leather stuck on their skin and in their hair. Have some compassion and call 1-800-THUMPIN now.

Nic, you poor thing. You need help. Bow down to the God of All Faiths Now! Don't you understand we are all worshipping the same Gawd and trying to get to the same place? Don't you realize that all religions point to the same Gawd? Accept Jeezuzzz Muhammad Krishna Farrakhan Buddha Vicky Gene Robinson Fritz Perls before it is too late for you. Your antisocial behavior will be the doom of you. Thanks Nancy for the pretty thoughts. Proverbs 26:5

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Jim, knock it off.

Why must you mock another person's attempt at befriending people of other faiths?

How can you ever hope to share Christ or learn anything about what people's needs are if you don't know them, if you don't understand how they think??? I swear you and Nic are the stranges Christian I have ever met.

Even in Lenox we went into the culturally different areas of Albany and learned what the people were about. What are missionaries doing when they go overseas? They are befriending a the natives and learning how best to witness..

What is this odd attitude from you and Nic on this issue?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Sorry RJ, can't talk now I am going down to the Bishops office to see if I can get help with my homophobia. Then I am going to take a course in interior decorating, flower arranging, listening to Baaaaabra Streisand and making strawberry daquiris (sp). Thanks again, Nancy!

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

You know what Paul said, all things to all men! And some of them are men aren't they?

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

I don't appreciate the BS Jim. You have been asked a real question and all you can do is this?

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

BTW JF...you've got mail.

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

"Neighbours, Everybody needs good neighbours,
Just a friendly wave each morning,
helps to make a better daaaaaay.
Neighbours, need to get to know each other,
Next day is only a footstep awaaaaay.
Neighbours, Everybody needs good neighbours,
With a little understanding,
you can find a perfect plaaaaan.
Neighbours, should be there for one another.
That's when good neighbours become good friends.
Neighbours, need to get to know each other,
next door is only a foot step awaaaaay.
Neighbours, every body needs good neighbours,
With a little understanding,
You can find the perfect plaaaaaan.
Neighbours, should be there for one another,
That's when good neighbours become good friends.
That's when good neighbours become good. Friends."

Thanks Nancy, Prov.26:5

[Nic (64.12.117.20)]

"Heretic. You'd have people like me burned at the stake for loving the people I know...funny, they nailed Jesus to a cross for doing what he did, Nic. He was called heretic, and a seditionist and radical because he actuallt healed people because of love not perjudice."

Well, Roberta, you have promoted yourself. You used to only compare yourself with Mother Theresa, but now you are on a level with Jesus.
If you were following Jesus around in His day, as I have said before, you would be constantly rebuking Him for the "harsh"(in your opinion) things He said to people and for not being tolerant of everything.


"Jim, knock it off.
Why must you mock another person's attempt at befriending people of other faiths?"

What's wrong, Roberta, have you lost your funny bone? I can recommend you to my doctor.


"Nic...do you participate in any kind of outreach?"
Roberta, do you do anything but sit on the computer 24-7 and post negativity, supposedly because you are so "concerned" about people in a cult, but really because you have nothing else to do?

[Anonymous (68.33.132.7)]

Jim, I prefer the more politically correct term "CONEHEAD". My Avionics brothers and sisters have worked hard and come too far to continue to be enslaved by the derogatory slur "TWEET". Don't be an Uncle Tom, Jim. Walk proudly, head held high, declare yourself a CONEHEAD! (Sorry, only members of the shadowy Aircraft Maintenance Cult will know this jargon. All of you, sell all of your possesions, and make offerings to the High Priest Herkybird to recieve the gift of ENLIGHTENMENT! Ha ha!)

Jim, why do those who do the most persecuting (and that would be you, if only verbally, although I wonder what you might be like in person sometimes) feel the most persecuted? I have never been able to figure that one out.

I do not believe nor is it my intent to imply that Jesus was not rightious. What I am trying to say is that adherence to the Law does not guarantee rightiousness. If that were the case, we would not have needed Jesus at all. We all could have just earned our way to Heaven.

The lesson that I learned from the examples I mentioned in my earlier post is that Jesus was showing that making the Law your God (as the Pharisees did) was not the way to rightiousness. No, Jesus did not say "reject all the Law", but that SOME of the Law was not valid and worshipping the the Law was not the way to be rightious.

Infinitely more than Ferris Beuller, Jesus was a RIGHTIOUS DUDE!

And yes, there are ways to explain the contradictions in the Bible. And you can do this with any subject, not just the Bible. Make a statement (in this case, the Bible is without error and it can't be proven otherwise) and then use every means possible to twist and turn to make sure that your original statement is true. The Baptists have done it for years to insist that Jesus didn't drink alcohol.

And Jim, (and you too, Nic) I am not trying to convert a single soul to my way of thinking. All I am trying to do is explain what I believe and why. That's it. I can easily find my spiritual ass, by the way. My spirit has definitely got some "junk in the trunk"!

Hugs!

Boss Martian

"Baby Got Back!"

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

"Nic...do you participate in any kind of outreach?"
"Roberta, do you do anything but sit on the computer 24-7 and post negativity, supposedly because you are so "concerned" about people in a cult, but really because you have nothing else to do?"

I am at my computer because I am writing a book.,..a fact I have mentioned before.

But you still have not answered my question. Do you participate in outreach?

Also, I never compared myself with Mother Theresa, I just would like to be more like her, and Amy Carmichael and Jesus. He wasn't as harsh as you would like to think, Nic. He was also compassionate, loving, and kind...to finge folk who had been denounced as unclean by the prevailing church of the times...He spent time loving and healing lepers (today's Muslims?) prostitutes, tax collectors, fishermen, the blind, the lame,the people of other faiths (recall the parable of the Good Samaritan?). He healed Romans (recall the Centurion?) and every kind of person that the Jewish church looked down upon. He drew them with love, and friendship.

He saved the harsh words for the money changers and Pharisees and people who misuse others.

Yes, Nic...I would be more like him in every way. He elevated me to be his friend, sister and I love him.

Can all you do is find fault? Have you no other means of communicating? I really do not understand your attitude, because it doesn't sound at all Christian in that you hate all the people Jesus drew, that he wants to save.

Don't you believe in the Great Commision? Don't you care at all that the neighbor that is near your house may not know Him? Do you talk to them? Do you befriend them? Do you care? I mean, I really don't understand.

How do you define Christian charity? "If the greatest of these is love", as the bible says, where is your love? You put me down for loving my neighbor as myself when that is what Jesus instructs us to do.

Nic you aren't making any sense, except that your resentment of me is apparent. Is your resentment more important than the truth that God wants us to love His people?

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

"What I am trying to say is that adherence to the Law does not guarantee rightiousness."

On the contrary Homer, that is the ONLY thing that will guarantee righteousness--and it will either be His or yours that you rely on at the judgment. And He was a righteous man only because he kept the Law--all of it--perfectly and perpetually."


You mean he didn't come to save us because he knew we couldn't fulfill the law? Isn't that why he fulfilled it for us? Isn't that why is it by His righteousness that we enter heaven when we accept his blood sacrifice?

No one can fulfill the law. He didn't keep the law...he healed people and picked corn on the sabbath, right? He didn't keep it, he fulfilled it, once and for all. Done.

Aren't we now free from the sarifices of Leviticus? He took care of all that. We are to walk righteously to be sure, but we are sinful creatures and fully incapable of fulfilling the law...at least that's what my Sunday School teacher taught me years before Carl ever came into my life.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Sonnyboy when I was in the Navy the ships were made of wood and the men were made of steel and there were no coneheads until after the first SNL episode which was shown long after I got discharged. AMD back then was full of tweets.

"What I am trying to say is that adherence to the Law does not guarantee rightiousness."

On the contrary Homer, that is the ONLY thing that will guarantee righteousness--and it will either be His or yours that you rely on at the judgment. And He was a righteous man only because he kept the Law--all of it--perfectly and perpetually.

Explanations for what appear to be contradictions are not "explaining away" difficulties--they are there for people who are really actually interested in truth--instead of just trashing the Bible. Just saying, "There are contradictions in the Bible!" is proving my point. Both hands. Can't find it. Too many comics. Stick to Ludlum. Have a lager drink.

As far as the alcohol thing goes, the first sermon that I ever heard about good drink including "Theakstones Old Peculiar" was in a Baptist Church in Leeds, England. Title: "He Gives the Wine that Makes Glad the Heart of Man." I prefer a good cream sherry personally. Of course the preacher was one of those Calvinist spiritual hardasses, so I had to have a pint with him. And if I could stand the smell, I would love to have had a cigar with Spurgeon (a Baptist).

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

"he healed people and picked corn on the sabbath, right?"

Neither of these profane the sabbath, even by old testament standards. Fulfilling it means he kept it--and that he is equal to it.

"What man among you, if he had a sheep that fell into a pit on the Sabbath, wouldn't take hold of it and lift it out?"

"Or haven't you read in the law that on Sabbath days the priests in the temple violate the Sabbath and are guiltless?"


"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."

The Sabbath is to be a delight: Isa. 58:13

"Or haven't you read in the law that on Sabbath days the priests in the temple violate the Sabbath and are guiltless?"

Acts of mercy or necessity have never been violations of the Sabbath, contrary to the Pharisees, who made it a burden that God never intended it to be.

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

[rj (151.203.163.174)]

You mean he didn't come to save us because he knew we couldn't fulfill the law? Isn't that why he fulfilled it for us? Isn't that why is it by His righteousness that we enter heaven when we accept his blood sacrifice?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

"Righteousness"= keeping the Law of God perfectly as commanded.

Either you have to do it and will be held accountable or some other man has to do it for you.

Any sacrifice will not do. The sacrifice has to be "without spot or blemish"--perfect. Perfect = keep the law absolutely without error.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Cur Deus Homo?

[rj (151.203.163.174)]

Boss said adherence to the law.

Do you say Christians must adhere to the law? Between the two of you you have made the conversation clear as mud...*LOL*

[rj (151.203.163.174)]

will the antichrist and the false prophet be womwn?

[Anonymous (151.203.163.174)]

or women

[Anonymous (68.33.132.7)]

Jim,

I know you remember the archetypical aircraft maintenance guy who could troubleshoot an aircraft from his chair in the shop before ever touching it. Upon hearing that the aircraft has a fuel indication problem, he would boldly pronounce with great gravity "Verily, the problem is a faulty fuel management controller!" (I use the term "verily" since you were in the Navy so long ago, you were likely wearing sandals and carrying a spear). This guy would then throw fuel management controller (FMC) after FMC into the aircraft, depleting the entire Department of Defense inventory of said device, all to prove that, indeed, the FMC IS THE PROBLEM! The guy would ignore all other evidence to the contrary when in reality, it turned out the problem was a chafed wiring bundle in the fuel tank or a bad fuel probe. Meanwhile, the aircraft sits on the flightline, gathering dust.

What is wrong with this? Our intrepid conehead/tweet has made a GRAND PRONOUNCEMENT (that the FMC is BAD!) and will go to any length, not to get the aircraft back in the air, but to prove that he is RIGHT! And the big picture is lost: Getting the aircraft back in the air, safely.

What does this have to do with the Bible? If you start with the presumption that the Bible is without error and, more importantly, contradiction, you will discard every bit of evidence to the contrary, even if it's right in front of you in black and white (and sometimes red).

Please note that this is a far different thing than rejecting someone's opinion. Further, finding contradiction in the Bible in no way diminishes the greater truths contained within. Hell, Jim, I even agree with a few (admittedly few) opinions you have, particularly on the drinking issue.

For example, we have two widely differing versions of creation in Genesis. The order of events is markedly different, in one case with the universe starting as nameless void, the other as a desert. One DESCRIPTION cannot be the other. There is contradiction. Now you can Bill Clinton this thing and say that one account emphasizes one aspect of creation while the other emphasizes another if you are working from the assumption that the Bible is without error. This contradiction does not take away from the fact that God created the Earth. But it does indicate that two people tried to write an account of creation and described it differently.

As to the Ressurection, each Gospel has markedly different stories of who was present at the tomb when Christ arose. One account has angels present, sometimes Mary is there, sometimes she isn't. These stories contradict each other. Does it take away from the fact that Christ arose? For a legalistic fundamentalist (who would make great lawyers), the answer is yes. I say no, but it does indicate that different guys wrote these stories and either heard or remembered them differently.

Even Christ's last words are different in each Gospel. What did He say? It doesn't matter, Jesus died for my sins.

The Bible is ABOUT God, not God Himself. A thing that describes a thing, no matter how eloquently, is not that thing! (I have just confused myself!)I don't worship the Bible. To worship it is no better than worshipping any other graven image. No matter how magnificent the idol, it is still an idol.

I don't use the inconsistentcies in the Bible to reject God. I just believe that God is too great, too awesome, to be contained in human language. We can do our best, but words can't contain God. Words can't even contain the love that I feel for the woman I love, so how can they express God?

Fundamentalism is always about power in my humble opinion. Not the power of God, but the power of man over man. It is the use of Scripture to control people. Men have used it to justify keeping slaves, burning witches, silencing heretics (like that moron who said the Earth was round and had the gall to say the Earth orbited the Sun, unlike the Bible which in most cases says otherwise), keeping uppity women on a leash, etc. Fundamentalism is never about freedom. Oh, the fundamentalist will constantly harp on your ulimate responsibility when it comes to "getting right with the Lord", but they sure don't want you to have the freedom to do it.

Lot's of love and best regards,

Boss Martian
Your bestest buddy and big toe!

[Nic (149.174.164.83)]

Roberta,
I don't see how you can possibly write a book when you are constantly posting, since writing a book takes hours of uninterrupted concentration, but that is just my own opinion.

I did not say Jesus was harsh, I said that you would take many of the things He said as harsh, because so often when a verse is simply quoted you react by calling it legalism, cold, unloving, etc.

I do not hate you and I do not put you down for loving your neighbor, as you claim I do. What I take issue with is how you attack the bible or anyone who brings up the bible, and yet preach tolerance for anything else. And yes, I suppose I do resent you for that. Also for your personal attacks on me which I probably should have chosen to ignore more than respond to.

I agree with you about befriending unsaved neighbors, outreach, etc.....what we do not agree on is attitudes toward the Word of God and toward other religions and philosophies that you seem to put on an even par with the Word.

[Voice in a Thirsty Land (205.188.117.20)]

Well if I am understanding all this correctly, If one were to put it succently for anyone I would have to say JF, you are saying that basically it is impossible to adhere perfectly to the word.
To what the word says and demands we follow. There is no way any one person can possibly do or be all that is required in scripture. None whatsoever.

If you are saying that God demands it or else... then I say what was the use of Christ dying? What was the use of him suffering and what is all that stuff about grace and forgiveness? The Blood sacrifice and the giving of His only son?

If that is all null and void then frankly, I'm not into a sadistic God who demands I live in a box and travel on a straight and narrow road when He created such wonderous things all around. How can God require us, His children to live in such a small narrow minded frame when He is the Creator of such marvelous things?

I think you are not only putting God in a box and using the scriptures to do it but also trying to put His children in there too. God is Greater than that. He is so much more than words on paper and more than what we as mere mortals can even comprehend.

Why is it we insist on reducing Him and ourselves into something that can be definable? The law. We sing about being free, yet we are not free. We create more problems for ourselves by insisting that God demands things a certain way. But does He really?

AHH... hence the rub, as some say. The contention of Fundamentalists vs Non-Fundamentalists. Those who DARE say they no longer believe in The Bible's Literal translation are accused of being -perhaps not saved- they are questioning God himself, questioning authority?

Hmmm sounds a bit like GGWO doctrine doesn't it? Don't question, don't think, just believe what it says. Believe what you are told. Believe what you read or others translate to you. Don't think for yourself. Critical thinking is not allowed.

For some people, whether you want to believe it or not, being able to think critically has actually enhanced their faith. It broadend their horizens a bit more and their faith grew stronger.
It doens't make them Wishy-Washy Christians. What it does is make them still your brothers and sister in Christ. Differences and all.

So what if they are no longer fundamentalists. Big deal! Do you REALLY think that is going to upset GOd? Do you REALLY think GOd is going to be ****ED OFF because some believe differently than others? I don't think so.

Comeon people, time to get real and get down to what is actually important. You have a situation happening here. A real hornets nest that is about to burst and there are a lot of people who are going to need us. They are going to be hurting, Confused, angry, discouraged, you name it they are going to be it.

What are you going to do? Are you going to lambaste them with all your superior knowledge and judgemental attitudes? Are you going to say See I told you so? Are you going to throw it up in their faces, call them stupid, idiots heretics, etc? What are you going to do? How are you going to reveal God to them? I sure hope it isn't the same way some of you have reveal God on here lately. Because frankly I have seen very little of Gods Grace, mercy and love.

The time of devouring and attacking one another needs to come to a close.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

All who have chosen to walk away from biblical fundamentalism are welcome to join Fundamentalists Anonymous, and to consider embracing the following Twelve Steps:

1. I realize that I had turned control of my mind over to another person or group, who had assumed power over my thinking.
2. That person or group persuaded me of the inerrancy of the Bible, in spite of its many internal contradictions.
3. I became addicted to the Bible as the supreme focus of my faith, in spite of the commandment that God should come first.
4. I admit to God, to myself and to another person the shortcomings of my belief in the unbelievable.
5. I have made an inventory of my false claims about the Bible.
6. I have made a list of those whom I led into confusion about the Bible.
7. I am willing to make amends to all those whom I may have led astray.
8. I realize that I have the inner power to restore sanity to my life and to search Scripture for the truth.
9. I will reach out to friends who can help me clarify my thinking about the Bible, God and Jesus.
10. I confess that only with God's help can my mind grasp the truth.
11. I will seek through prayer and meditation to improve my conscious contact with God, praying for knowledge of God's will for me and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these twelve steps, I will offer these steps to other former biblical fundamentalists.

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I have a funny bone too!

-Karen

[KDuhamel (24.60.78.215)]

BTW, Jim. I thought your "head covering" response was hilarious. My husband wanted to know why I was cackling.

-Karen

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Nic, What is it with you? I answer your questions...and BTW, I AM writing a book and do not appreciate being called a liar. I suggest you watch your mouth and accusations, Ms Anonymous (haven't got the guts to tell anyone who you really are? Who are YOU afraid of?)

Secondly...I don't find the bible itselfs "legalism, cold, unloving, etc.", that's what I say about you.

Thirdly, I notice that you STILL haven't answered my question...do you do outreach? Why no answer, Nic? Haven't got one?

The only people I take issue with when it comes to the bible is you and Jim...and he less than you.

Fifth...I do not equate anything with the bible...I just don't lambaste everyone who doesn't believe in it and hasn't been raised in this culture or has chosen another religion. You know why people turn away from Christianity and search for God elsewhere...because of people like you and Carl. I also do not consider myself better than people of other creeds like you do...I just try to love them where they are at. Do you love anyhting except your own self righteousness? I really can't tell.

And don't even start with me about the personal attack BS, Nic....there is no one on this board who has attacked me with such rancor as you have me.

You asked me onece not to talk to you...that you wished you didn't have to deal with me ever again...Well, Nic, if you'd back up outta my face and go about your own stuff and leave the rest of us who disagree with you alone, you wouldn't have this problem.

You continue to call me a liar if you must to make yourself feel betteer...I can prove you wrong but why bother.

My only other issue...what do you do for outreach Nic? Do you do any? Are there needy people out in the evil world anywhere that you reach out to? Do you berate them or do you actually care about them at all?

No answer....I am not surprised.

You know why you don't have a funny bone Nic? God knew it would be a waste of time to give you one. (that's a j-o-k-e Nic...it's in the dictionary)

*LOL*

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Can I join Karen????? Pretty Please????????

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

FUNDAMENTALISTS ANONYMOUS....j-o-k-e, Nic....just pout one ha before the other and repeat

[Anonymous (68.33.132.7)]

Voice In A Thirsty Land,

Thanks for your post, I wish I could have said that as eloquently as you. I also agree that a lot of the arguing on MY side is a waste of time and energy that could be better spent helping others that might need a friend or some help.

Karen,

Right on, Sister Woman. I am thoroughly enjoying Real Live Preacher and have shared it with a lot of my friends. All seem to have enjoyed it and like me, it makes them think.

Hang in there, Roberta! Is your book a novel or non-fiction? I am also writing a novel. I hope to finish it in the desert.

And a shout out to Maria T., Bob, Herky and all the others that bring me up (even if we disagree) instead of trying to beat me down.

Lots of love,

Boss Martian

[Nic (152.163.253.102)]

"There is no way any one person can possibly do or be all that is required in scripture. None whatsoever. If you are saying that God demands it or else... then I say what was the use of Christ dying?"

That is the whole point! We can't fulfill the law as God demands, so Christ fulfilled it for us, and died for us. That is the basic gospel


"We create more problems for ourselves by insisting that God demands things a certain way. But does He really?"

He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
Genesis 3:1


"Do you REALLY think GOd is going to be ****ED OFF because some believe differently than others? I don't think so."

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you received, let him be eternally condemned!
Gal 1:8,9
(Sounds like someone was ****ed off about people believing the right way)

[Nic (152.163.253.102)]

Roberta,
Hey, thanks, that was your sweetest post to me yet. It reminded me of your words in your previous post:

"Can all you do is find fault? Have you no other means of communicating? I really do not understand your attitude, because it doesn't sound at all Christian..... How do you define Christian charity? "If the greatest of these is love", as the bible says, where is your love? Is your resentment more important than the truth that God wants us to love His people?"

Your love is evident in all your posts, and I will take a lesson from your example.

And how did you guess about my outreach? You are right, I go door to door and berate people. I tell them they are bound for hell while thumping on my bible. It's not always as effective as sitting at a computer all day, posting slander and criticisms, but it satisfies my conscience that at least I am doing what I know how to do best.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.31)]

There was something that C.S.Lewis refered to as suspended disbelief when reading a work of fiction. The idea was to enter into the perspective of the story teller and temporarily put aside judgment of the details of what he was relating. The story would have its own world of logic; and the idea was to understand that. On the other side of having read it, the reader would not consider all the realities within the story to have bearing outside of it; but while reading it he would accept the laws of logic the author put forth. I would like to see those of us here put a little more effort into understanding what exactly the other posters are seeking to get at in their posts before coming out with blazing guns. I myself need to work at listening before responding; and I really have tried to be reasonable. Sometimes the logical extenions we make from what one of us has posted end up in places that the poster has no intention of going. I would like to know who each of you really is; not some weird combination of that together with my predisposed judgments of you. Can we work together on this? Are we not brothers and sisters? Are we not entreated by the Word and the Lord Jesus Himself to love one another? Do all our postings taste like love to you?

[Roberta (151.203.163.174)]

Blazing guns....aptly said.

I will holster mine and let the others do as they will.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

"Hang in there, Roberta! Is your book a novel or non-fiction? I am also writing a novel. I hope to finish it in the desert."

I am writng fiction. I have the first draft complete...375 pages. Am into the first rewrite and have decided to start with Part 4 and work backward through the story to make sure I have the details aligned. The prose need tightening, the cutting has begun.

I have outlines prepared for two others and I really would rather be working on them instead of doing the picky work on this one, but I can't hire a leterary agent to shop this around in the shape its in, so...ugh. But I had to do a lot of forensic research, which is fun and once I get happy with the process it'll go much better.

Because my hands are not up to the task I will pay to have it put in perfect manuscript form, the get the agent thing started.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

The Lord God created a man who was perfectly CAPABLE OF KEEPING his commandments, he represented us in Eden. They are called commandments because they are not suggestions or guidelines. Fail to keep them and you will suffer the consequences hence, "In the day that you eat of it you will surely die." God unfortunately for us changlings does not change and his commandments stand.

We are desperately in need of either the ability to keep the commandments or for someone to do it in our behalf, take the consequences of our unlawfulness upon himself, transfer his obedience to us, and rise again to promise life (which was the promise inferred in the Garden--remember that other tree? It shows up again in Rev. 22). That is the content of the gospel--it neither puts God in a box or puts unreasonable requirements on man. So Mr. Voice, that is my answer to you.

Boss, the so called "evidence" you declare has been addressed in many incidences quite from the front without any Clintonian "is" problems. You do not want to hear them so I will not offer them in any great detail. A simple view of each "account" of Creation in Genesis One and Two taking into consideration the Hebrew words used in each will easily resolve that particular difficulty--there are others far more problematic. The resurrection accounts are even less problematic when one uses simple logic, much like that needed to solve those problems like: Mr. A has cat, Mrs. Jones has a yellow pet, The dog is named Jerry. They are difficulties if one has certain assumptions about who was there at which time and who was mentioned and who was not.

Like I said, that is not your problem. You don't need more information. One answer for you will only bring more ignorance in the form of "intelligence." You are a self-confessed unbeliever in Scripture. Maybe that is honest on your part. You cannot hold to a belief in the Christ of Scripture (and that is the ONLY place you will come to know Him) because he valued the Scriptures as truth. Without error. And he spent his parting hours teaching His disciples not about hyperspirituality, but about the Scriptures that revealed him.

Christianity is nothing if it is not a faith of the Book. It is nothing else. The Book, and listen closely kids, is not what we worship--we don't practice "bibliolatry". The Bible is a MEANS to an end--to know the only true God and His Son Jesus Christ. The Bible is the unveiling of God. There is no other way he has chosen to make the way of salvation known. No other way.

Actually Mr. Voice, since you ask about God being ****ed off if we believe another way--let me point you in the direction of the very first Commandment--and remind you of Nadab and Abihu--who just believed a little differently, or poor Uzzah who only tried to help--or Moses's child whom the Lord sought to kill because he was only uncircumcised and of the New Testament anathemas--and of the New Testament verse that calls unbelief a spade---evil. So yeah, I think ****ed off might be putting it a little lightly. Think about what Christ said to those who lead others astray. Is there no way at all in the modern world or in your tiny mind for that to happen any more? No one can be led astray because it doesn't matter anymore--God has lightened up and has got over that real bad case of jealousy he had?

There are not two Gods. One of the Old Testament and one of the New. There is one God and one Christ. There is one revelation of God's gospel and that is Scripture. There isn't any other.

[Anonymous (67.242.153.86)]

SOMEBODY still has their gun out.........Could it be.........JIM!

Just like a car crash,

Just like a knife,

Jim's favorite weapon,

IS THE BOOK IN HIS HAND!

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.31)]

I think Jim's post above is pretty reasonable and accurate in its moorings. The one thing I would say though is that we are also a means by which God reveals His plan of Salvation. The word of our testimony and all that; preaching the gospel. But one way of explaining that in Jim's terms (I am assuming) is that we are an outworking of the written Word which God Himself has spoken into our lives. That seems a very reasonable way to look at it. Nature and the creation may express God; His creativity and diversity and various aspects of His nature or 'personality'; but the plan of Salvation for Man (the only one available) is not expressly readable outside of the Word in some form.

I personally believe that if someone is really seeking truth that God will make ways for them to see and know it; and that He 'prepares the soil', so to speak, with things from the environment and circumstances of life and such. But some people want to appear to be seeking truth when they actually are not.

[Voice in a Thirsty Land (64.12.117.20)]

This is story was written by a doctor who worked in South Africa...

One night I had worked hard to help a mother in the labor ward;but in spite of all we could do, she died leaving us with a tiny premature baby
and a crying two-year-old daughter. We would have difficulty keeping the baby alive, as we had no incubator (we had no electricity to run an
incubator). We also had no special feeding facilities.

Although we lived on the equator, nights were often chilly with treacherous drafts. One student midwife went for the box we had for such babies and the cotton wool that the baby would be wrapped in. Another went to stoke up the fire and fill a hot water bottle.

She came back shortly in distress to tell me that in filling the bottle, it had burst (rubber perishes easily in tropical climates). "And it
is our last hot water bottle!" she exclaimed. As in the West, it is no good crying over spilled milk, so in Central Africa it might be considered
no good crying over burst water bottles. They do not grow on trees,and there are no drugstores down forest pathways.

"All right," I said, "put the baby as near the fire as you safely can, and sleep between the baby and the door to keep it free from drafts.
Your job is to keep the baby warm."

The following noon, as I did most days, I went to have prayers with many of the orphanage children who chose to gather with me. I gave the youngsters various suggestions of things to pray about and told them about the tiny baby. I explained our problem about keeping the baby
warm enough, mentioning the hot water bottle, and that the baby could so easily die if it got chills. I also told them of the two-year-old sister, crying because her mother had died.

During prayer time, one ten-year old girl, Ruth, prayed with the usual blunt conciseness of our African children. "Please, God" she prayed, "send us a water bottle. It'll be no good tomorrow, God, as the baby will be dead so please send it this afternoon."

While I gasped inwardly at the audacity of the prayer, she added, "And while You are about it, would You please send a dolly for the little
girl so she'll know You really love her?"

As often with children's prayers, I was put on the spot. Could I honestly say,"Amen". I just did not believe that God could do this. Oh, yes, I know that He can do everything, the Bible says so. But there are limits, aren't there? The only way God could answer this particular prayer
would be by sending me a parcel from homeland. I had been in Africa for almost four years at that time, and I had never, ever received a parcel from home. Anyway, if anyone did send me a parcel, who would put in a hot water bottle? I lived on the equator!

Halfway through the afternoon, while I was teaching in the nurses' training school, a message was sent that there was a car at my
front door. By the time I reached home, the car had gone, but there, on the verandah, was a large twenty-two pound parcel. I felt tears pricking my
eyes. I could not open the parcel alone, so I sent for the orphanage children.

Together we pulled off the string, carefully undoing each knot. We folded the paper, taking care not to tear it unduly. Excitement was
mounting. Some thirty or forty pairs of eyes were focused on the large cardboard box.

From the top, I lifted out brightly colored, knitted jerseys. Eyes sparkled as I gave them out. Then there were the knitted bandages for
the leprosy patients, and the children looked a little bored. Then came a box of mixed raisins and sultanas - that would make a batch of buns
for the weekend. Then, as I put my hand in again, I felt the.....could it really be? I grasped it and pulled it out - yes, a brand-new, rubber hot
water bottle. I cried.

I had not asked God to send it; I had not truly believed that He could. Ruth was in the front row of the children. She rushed forward, crying out, If God has sent the bottle, He must have sent the dolly too!" Rummaging down to the bottom of the box, she pulled out the small, beautifully
dressed dolly. Her eyes shone! She had never doubted!

Looking up at me, she asked: "Can I go over with you and give this dolly to that little girl, so she'll know that Jesus really loves her?" That parcel had been on the way for five whole months. Packed up by my former Sunday school class, whose leader had heard and obeyed
God's prompting to send a hot water bottle, even to the equator. And one of the girls had put in a dolly for an African child - five months before, in answer to the believing prayer of a ten-year-old to bring it "that afternoon."

"Before they call, I will answer" (Isaiah 65:24)


Let's continue praying for one another.

Father, I ask you to bless my friends reading this right now. I am asking You to minister to their spirit at this very moment. Where there is
pain, give them Your peace and mercy. Where there is self doubting,release a renewed confidence to work through them. Where there is tiredness,
or exhaustion, I ask You to give them understanding, guidance, and strength as they learn submission to Your leading. Where there is spiritual stagnation,
I ask You to renew them by revealing Your nearness, and by drawing them into greater intimacy with You. Where there is fear, reveal Your love, and release to them Your courage. Where there is a sin blocking them, reveal it
and break its hold over my friend's life. Bless their finances, give them greater vision, and raise up leaders and friends to support and
encourage them. Give each of them discernment to recognize the evil forces around them, and reveal to them the power they have in You to defeat it.
I ask You to do these things in Jesus' name.

[RJ (151.203.163.174)]

Thank you Voice....amen.

[JF (67.95.98.107)]

You are very mistaken mistake 67.242. I am from Texas. I carry a bayonet in the truck, of WWII vintage and I know how to use it to make you bleed to death realllll slow. As for guns, although I only use mine whenever kindness fails, I have a Berretta. The bayonet also comes in handy to get those hard to get at chunks of fried chicken from between my teeth. Both of them. You are obviously not a fundie. You don't even want to come around here, sonny.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.31)]

Oh Jim, You are a treasure.

[Dave Drago (68.91.72.9)]

Jim,
It is not fried chicken sonnnnnnn, Preacher Bubba, the Great Big Southern Baptist Pastor from the Great Big Church in the Great big city of Dallas in the Great Big Southern Baptist Zion ya'all call Texas says it is "Sanctified, Glorified, Deep Fat Fried,Southern Baptist Bird!" I have sat neat the spout where the glory comes out. Can ya hear me sonnnnn?.... This my Yankee soul doth no too well!
For Him
Dave

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.31)]

But what about George Foreman?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Ya gotta have that deeep deeeeep fat to get the deeeep deeeep fried sanctified bird. Now, honey, that's good eatin'.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.31)]

1918 is the last time. 86 years is long enough to wait, I say weight, son.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Sounds like a Red Sox fan.

[Bob Brinton (141.154.150.31)]

I grew up going to Red Sox games and rooting for their opponents; the Yankees, the Twins, the Tigers. But I would like to see the Sox win again before the Lord takes me home. This seems like a likely year. We just need to avoid seventh games in the playoffs. I really don't believe Ruth's piano has anything to do with it. Word is that the Sox' owner that traded Ruth was after a hit Broadway play, which he did finally get. But he basically gave the Yankees not only Ruth, but many other players who made the Yankees a dynasty. It was another kind of abuse.

[lee (65.96.56.161)]

Denis Leary, the comedian, says that being a Red Sox fan is just as good as reading Shakespeare.....where else would we get such drama!
The 'New Yorker' says its a disease.
I love the game

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

It was 1986, and I remember watching the Mets play the Sox at Bob Herring's house in Lee. John Gardner was there too. It was the saddest thing I ever saw, a ball go through the legs of Bill Buckner--86'd in game 6. In that we were in Western Mass. the house was evenly divided between the Sox and the Mets. Too bad there was no beer to cry in.

[Dave Carson (207.156.7.90)]

I was at the Merrywood quasi-"dorm" in Lenox watching with a whole bunch of Red Sox fans, guys like big Bob Wiggin. That play had the most profound effect on grown men I've ever seen http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif. That experience prepared me to be a Devil Rays fan!

[Bob Brinton (70.17.138.90)]

Please! Bill Buckner was a good guy. Bob Stanley had just as much to do with losing that game (if not more) than he did. And it was only the sixth game. Bill Buckner did not singlehandedly lose the '86 Series. The football equivalent is Jackie Smith dropping a pass in the endzone as a Cowboy in the playoffs (was it the Bowl?) after an incredible career as a Cardinal. People have a stupidly narrow focus. Et tu moi aussi, and all that.

[chadcass3 (chadcass3)]

This messege is to Dave Carson. I was wondering how well you knew Bob Wiggin. He's my dad. I was in the Berkshires with him last summer camping, and he made me stop by Merriwood so I could take his picture in front of the building.

[cordell (cordell)]

What were we doing on FN nearly a year ago? Well, Boss Martian and I had not yet met by phone...

[cordell (cordell)]

And for the record, the Martian is one of my favorite folks on all of FN.