Lang story

[lily_rose (lily_rose)]

I read a story on this site a long time ago. It was written by the husband of the lady with whom paul stevens had an affair. where has it disappeared to?

At the time, I was scorned upon for reading and believing it, i could tell it was true.

What do you do when you want to do the right thing? I don't want to gossip or be a part of a spiritual attack on Gods work but the cover up story worries me deeply. I feel an intense pressure since attending GGWO for a few years now. my family is happily involved in the church and they don't even know whats going on because they don't like to listen to gossip.

I am very confused. I've never been to baltimore but my family has visited. i hate the way we are not allowed to entertain anything negative - what if its true? are we not supposed to test things? i just want to attend a normal church where you can come and go as you please, no pressure, no weird doctrines. i am so confused.

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

www.carlstevens.org (http://www.carlstevens.org) has the story on it. You can also do a keyword search and find it on this message board.

[lily_rose (lily_rose)]

hi, yes I have found it and read it again now.

very sad.

i don't know what to think. God bless you all, x

[rj_fernalld (rj_fernalld)]

lily_rose

I well remember my first feelings that something was wrong. It was a long time ago now, but I will never forget how upsetting it was to think that there were things happening that all of a sudden I knew...somehow inside I knew...were like, against God going on at the church.

It took some time, but as I prayed for God to direct my steps, the Holy Spirit made my heart and mind understand which things were of Him, and which things were not.

Cover ups are not of God. The argument that "well, no church is perfect" didn't fix it in my thinking anymore. I could see, the more I prayed, where the foundations were rotten, and therefore not Godly, so I was finally able to make the decision to leave the church. I didn't leave God, but I decided to leave behind the corruption that I could finally see.

I really would say to you to be on your knees, let go of all the complicated teaching you may have heard from GGWO...and get back to basics with God as you pray. He is not as complicated as some want us to believe.

Your heart, pure and expectant, awaiting His answers to your questions may be a very good place to start...He will answer, I promise. It sounds like His answers are already coming if you have once again sought out the truth about the Lang situation.

I also recommend that you read the other documents and pieces on that site. I can tell you it is all true, but you will only be truly satisfied and assured if you hear Him tell you.

I will keep you in my prayers. I remember that there were many people who loved me who prayed for me while I was confused and seeking answers.

My email is listed here on FactNet. If I can help in any way please don't hesitate to email.

Take care, and remember that He loves you and wants very much to speak to your seeking heart.

Roberta

(Message edited by Rj_fernalld on October 29, 2005)

[dancer (dancer)]

Ever have a funny feeling about something?

I got a bad feeling about this.

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Hey All,

I'll never forget how it was at GG when this news came out on FN. First we were told that people were writing letters to those who had been in "the ministry" for years. I listened to how Pastor Marr would say that they will not get away with this slander for much longer. We were told if we received one of these letters we shouldn't even open it if we had any suspitions. I f we did open it and start to read and knew what it's content was going to be, throw it in the trash. " Don't receive an evil report" we were implored not to give this stuff a second thought. When I had some problem with a Pastor still in he accused me of reading Factnet. I had not read one thing on FN. I was taught not to do so. I was telling this same Pastor that he was trying to put people in bondage to a pulpit, a building and last but not least a man. Him in particularly, then "Home Base" He was explosive when I said we need to be submitted to Christ, not Home Base. If he could have came through the phone, we would have had some problems. He swore that I had read Factnet. He swore wrong. It was that thinking that made me investigate. I'd walked away from the ministry he was representing. I mean this kind of talk was telling me to be a mindless follower, to not think for myself. Him and others made us feel as though even if we had read all the information they didn't want us to read, that we would not be Spirit led enough to make an educated decision as to "Is this truth or not" Jim Langs story was so filled with detail, how could I think anything else. Does not our spirit get a witness to the truth when we hear it? I did the same thing when first entering the ministry and we were given CHS's story about the lady in Lennox that gave all that money to the church. But as story after story came out and I still did not pursue them, God said to my heart; " Go ahead, do some research, you are to test the spirits to see if they are of God or not." I had already heard some things that I knew were not true coming from the pulpit, but I figured; eat the chicken and throw away the bones.But when you would go to a rap or hear conversations about those who had left, you had to wonder: " Will they be talking that greezzy about me if I ever leave. Some did before I left, told me I was leaving the geographical will of God for my life. What if it was God who told me to go? "Oh He wouldn't have called you here for such a short time." Lily, please be careful and prayful as your family is involved. This is a warning to you. Be prepared to hear truth that will make you free, but surely might cause great division between yourself and your family. There are many who post here who still have loved one's who are "IN" so be very careful. Make sure this is the avenue you really must walk down because you can't settle for anything less than truth. The truth cost's and for some the price is to high to pay. I will be praying for you. Tom

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
lily_rose,
you where taught not to touch God's annointed.
There is a very serious flaw in this thinking which puts you in bondage to another person as though they had something more of the Lord in them than you do.As though your position in Christ was less than theirs nut that is not true according to the Word of God.
I'm reposting this article for you to concider.
-----------------------
Touch Not Mine Anointed, And Do My Prophets No Harm

If you listen to "christian" television for any length of time you are sure to hear, "Touch Not Mine Anointed, And Do My Prophets No Harm." This verse is usually quoted to silence any person from questioning or criticizing what is being taught at that particular time.

Through the use of fear proper biblical discernment is discouraged not only by the leaders but the flock is soon parroting this verse to silence any criticism that is leveled against their leader.

What does this verse really mean? Does it mean that we cannot question anything that is taught by our leaders? Find the answers to these questions below from two evangelical leaders:

PSALM 105:15—Does this verse indicate that certain men called by God are beyond criticism and accountability, as Word-Faith teachers suggest?

MISINTERPRETATION:

Psalm 105:15 says, “Do not touch My anointed ones, And do My prophets no harm” (nasb). Some Word-Faith teachers cite this verse in arguing that they have been specially anointed by God and should not be criticized for their teachings. They indicate in their words and actions a belief that challenging their teachings amounts to challenging God himself.

CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION:

The phrase “the Lord’s anointed” is used in Old Testament Scripture to refer to Israel’s kings (see 1 Sam. 12:3, 5; 24:6, 10; 26:9, 11, 16, 23; 2 Sam. 1:14, 16; 19:21; Ps. 20:6; Lam. 4:20). In this context the word cannot be interpreted to refer to modern teachers in the church. Further, the word prophets in context can only refer to Old Testament prophets, not to modern church leaders. Neither of these designations can be interpreted with reference to teachers in the modern church.

Even if we allowed that this verse could loosely refer to modern church leaders, the warning is against physically harming them. It has nothing to do with testing their teachings. In Old Testament times prophets and kings were very much in danger of physical harm—and hence the warning.

Scripture itself instructs us to test all teachings by the Word of God (1 Thess. 5:21). Like the Bereans of old, we must make the Scriptures our measuring stick for truth (Acts 17:11). The Bereans were commended for testing the apostle Paul’s teachings against Scripture. Paul affirmed elsewhere, “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16–17 nasb, emphasis added). All of us are to be constantly on guard against false teachings (Rom. 16:17–18; cf. 1 Tim. 1:3–4; 4:16; 2 Tim. 1:13–14; Titus 1:9; 2:1).

There is a sense in which every believer in Christ is “anointed” (see 1 John 2:20). In view of this, no Christian leader can lay claim to being special or above others and beyond doctrinal criticism

Even if the text can be applied to certain church leaders today, in the context of this passage the words "touch" and "do harm" have to do with inflicting physical harm upon someone. Psalm 105:15 is therefore wholly irrelevant to the issue of questioning the teachings of any of God's "anointed."

Moreover, even if we accepted this misinterpretation of Psalm 105:15, how are we to know who not to "touch"; that is, who God's anointed and prophets are? Because they and their followers say they are? On such a basis we would have to accept the claims of Sun Myung Moon, Elizabeth Clare Prophet, and virtually all cult leaders to be prophets. Because they reputedly perform miracles? The Antichrist and False Prophet themselves will possess that credential (Rev. 13:13-15; 2 Thess. 2:9)! No, God's representatives are known above all by their purity of character and doctrine (Tit. 1:7-9; 2:7-8; 2 Cor. 4:2; cf. 1 Tim. 6:3-4). If a would-be spokesperson for God cannot pass the biblical tests of character and doctrine, we have no basis for accepting his or her claim, and no reason to fear that in criticizing his or her teaching we might also be rejecting God.

Finally, if any individual Christian is to be considered anointed, then so every Christian must be as well. For this is the only sense in which the term is used (apart from Christ) in the New Testament: "You [referring to all. believers] have an anointing from the Holy One" (1 John 2:20, NIV). Thus, no believer can justifiably claim any special status as God's "untouchable anointed" over other believers.

Nobody's teachings or practices are beyond biblical judgment especially influential leaders. Biblically, authority and accountability go hand in hand (e.g., Luke 12:48). The greater the responsibility one holds, the greater the accountability one has before God and His people.

Teachers should be extremely careful not to mislead any believer, for their calling carries with it a strict judgment (James 3:1). They should therefore be grateful when sincere Christians take the time to correct whatever erroneous doctrine they may be preaching to the masses. And should the criticisms be unfounded they should respond in the manner prescribed by Scripture: to correct misguided doctrinal opposition with gentle instruction (2 Tim. 2:25).

There is of course another side to this issue: criticism often can be sinful, leading to rebellion and unnecessary division. Christians should respect the leaders that God has given them (Heb. 13:17). Theirs is the task of assisting the church in its spiritual growth and doctrinal understanding (Eph. 4:11-16). At the same time believers should be aware that false teachers will arise among the Christian fold (Acts 20:28; 2 Pet. 2:1). This makes it imperative for us to test all things by Scripture, as the Bereans were commended for doing when they examined the words of the apostle Paul (Acts 17:11).

The Bible is useful not only for preaching, teaching, and encouragement, but for correcting and rebuking (2 Tim. 4:2). In fact, Christians are held accountable for proclaiming the whole will of God and warning others of false teachings and teachers (Acts 20:26-28; cf. Ezek. 33:7-9; 34:1-10).

We would do well to heed Scripture's repeated warnings to be on guard for false teachings (e.g., Rom. 16:17-18; cf. 1 Tim. 1:3-4; 4:16; 2 Tim. 1:13-14; Tit. 1:9; 2:1), and to point them out to believers (2 Tim. 4:6). With so much scriptural support, such actions can hardly be considered unbiblical.

Here is what Charles Spurgeon said about false teachers:

"I cannot endure false doctrine, however neatly it may be put before me. Would you have me eat poisoned meat because the dish is of the choicest ware? It makes me indignant when I hear another gospel put before the people with enticing words by man who would fair make merchandise of souls; and I marvel at those who have soft words for such deceivers. "That is your bigotry," says one. Call it so if you like; but it is the BIGOTRY OF THE LOVING JOHN, who wrote, "If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed; for he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds." I would to God we all had more of such decision, for the lack of it is depriving our religious life of its backbone and substituting for honest manliness a mass of tremulous jelly of mutual flattery. HE WHO DOES NOT HATE THE FALSE DOES NOT LOVE THE TRUE; and he to whom it is all the same, whether it be God's word or man's, is himself unrenewed at heart. Oh, if some of you were like your fathers, you would not have tolerated in this age the wagon loads of trash under which the gospel has been of late buried by ministers of your own choosing. The apostle spake by inspiration when he said, "If we or an angel from heaven preach to you any other gospel than that ye have received, let him be accursed." According to modern effeminacy he ought to have said, "Let him be kindly spoken with in private, but pray make no stir. No doubt the good brother has his own original modes of thought and we must not question his liberty. Doubtless he believes the same as we do, only there is some little difference as to terms." This is treason to Christ and treachery to truth and cruelty to souls. IF WE LOVE OUR LORD, WE SHALL KEEP HIS WORDS AND STAND FAST IN THE FAITH, coming out from among the false teachers. Nor is this inconsistent with charity; for the truest love to those who err is not to fraternize with them in their error, but to be faithful to Jesus Christ in all things."

Here is what Charles Spurgeon said about the "wretched indifferentism" of his day:

"We have been likened by one of our opponents to the boy in the fable who cried, "Wolf!" The parallel only fails in the all-important point that he cried "Wolf!" when there was none, and we are crying "Wolf!" when packs of them are howling so loudly that it would be superfluous for us to shout at all if a wretched indifferentism had not brought a deep slumber upon those who ought to guard the flocks. The evidence is to our mind so overwhelming that we thought that our statements only gave voice to a matter of common notoriety. Either we are dreaming, or our brethren are; let the godly judge who it is that is asleep."

J. Gresham Machen had some insightful thoughts on these leaders that tell us to just love everybody regardless of what they teach:

"That disaster is a figure of what will come of optimism in the churches of today. Superficially our ecclesiastical life seems to be progressing as it always did: the cabins are full of comfortable passengers; the orchestra is playing a lively air; the rows of lighted windows shine cheerfully out into the night. But all the time death is lurking beneath. In this time of deadly peril there are leaders who say that all is well; there are leaders who decry controversy and urge peace, declaring that the church is all perfectly loyal and true. God forgive them, brethren! I say it with all my heart: may God forgive them for the evil that they are doing to Christ’s little ones: may the Holy Spirit open their eyes while yet there is time! Meanwhile, in the case of many of the churches, the great ship rushes onward to the risk, at least, of doom."

Here is what Charles Spurgeon said about taking a stand:

"We admire a man who was firm in the faith, say four hundred years ago...but such a man today is a nuisance, and must be put down...Yet imagine in those ages past, Luther, Zwingle, Calvin, and their compeers had said, 'The world is out of order; but if we try to set it right we shall only make a great row, and get ourselves into disgrace. Let us go to our chambers, put on our night-caps, and sleep over the bad times, and perhaps when we wake up things will have grown better.' Such conduct on their part would have entailed upon us a heritage of error. Age after age would have gone down into the infernal deeps, and the pestiferous bogs of error would have swallowed all. These men loved the faith and the name of Jesus too well to see them trampled on.

It is today as it was in the Reformers days. Decision is needed. Here is the day for the man, where is the man for the day? We who have had the gospel passed to us by martyr hands dare not triffle with it, nor sit by and hear it denied by traitors, who pretend to love it, but inwardly abhor every line of it...Look you sirs, there are ages yet to come. If the Lord does not speedily appear, there will come another generation, and another, and all these generations will be tainted and injured if we are not faithful to God and to His truth today. We have come to a turning point in the road. If we turn to the right mayhap our children and our children's children will go that way; but if we turn to the left, generations yet unborn will curse our names for having been unfaithful to God and to His Word."

Baruch Habbah Hashem Adonia,
Dave
</font>}}}}

[lily_rose (lily_rose)]

Hi and thank you for your responses.

I have not gone to church today.

I am not bothered about my family turning against me as I know their hearts are in the right place. I know they follow the Bible and are simply oblivious to what is going on.

I have the following questions:

1) If the ministry is not of God, then how come God seems to have used the ministry to reach a lot of people?

2) I believe the Alan Lang story, but this is the internet... Everybody is anonymous or can take on any identity, so how do I know that some stories are not exadurated or lies because they didn't like somebody?

I believe that there is no smoke without fire but I was reading that "secretaries story" and I spoke to my husband who has spent time in Baltimore. He said that Pastor Stevens is always surrounded by people, he does so much for the church that he would hardly find time to do all that was stated.

He also told me that there were accusations about pastor schaller and when they came to question - it was found that he was not even present in Baltimore at that time - he was in Budapest.

3) I read a thread in this forum where they mentioned the pastors who were recently ordained. One of them was my brother. Somebody took it upon themselves to talk about the pastors having many women accesible to them etc as if they are a bunch of perves. I was hurt by this. Is this kind of talk of God? I believe there has been corruption in the church heirachy, but that was a nasty and hurtful statement and was a massive generalisation. My brother is single and very respectful toward women. He hasn't even had a girlfriend in years and would never take advantage of a woman.

I feel that some of the posts are hurtful and really slanderous, whilst others are useful for those searching for the truth.

4) One more thing...

If a man is truly repentant and restored before God, is it for us to repeat their sins in such a manner? I know I am not perfect, but then again I'm not a church leader. I am very confused. I don't know what to think or believe.


}

[lily_rose (lily_rose)]

It's weird because I feel incredibly guilty for coming on here!

[godsent (godsent)]

1) If the ministry is not of God, then how come God seems to have used the ministry to reach a lot of people?

The bible says let the wheat and the tarry grow together, and in due season he will do the seperating. God can use whoever and whatever to get his word across to his people. Once God get's our attention then it is our job to start seeking Him so we may no the diffrence between right and wrong. When I got saved a sinner women brought me into the knowledge of christ, but when I started seeing God for myself, that's when I knew the things that she was doing was wrong. God set us on to diffrent paths I'm now saved and I'm sad to say she's not.

To answer the question to # 2. Well, you have to ask God for the wisdom to no the diffrence, because everybody on here is not saved. So you she not go by what you hear, ask God and He will show you the truth. You must also remember that eyeryone on here is not responding out of the spirit but of the flesh, so what every comes to mind comes out of their mouth.

If God puts our sin in the sea of forgetfulness, then so should we. Why keep diggin the issue up? Whats done is done, whats dead is dead why bring it up again. God does not agree with that mess! Besides no sin is greater than the other, we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, and he still for gave us. Believe in God lilly_ rose because God knew your beginning and he has already wrote the end of you story. This too shall pass because if God brought you to it he will take you through it.

[john_krainis (john_krainis)]

"If the ministry is not of God, then how come God seems to have used the ministry to reach a lot of people?"

I woke up this morning with that thought, thanking God for revealing Himself to me, and marveling again that He used students from The Bible Speaks. I'm also thankful that He pried me out!

Someone can be used by God but not necessarily be "of God" in the sense of having His blanket approval. The Babylonians were blood-thirsty pagans, but were "used" in God's plan. TBS/GG is "of God" in the sense that they hold the core truths of the Christian faith, but they are cultic in their exaltation of leaders, hyper-authoritarianism, callous treatment of people, excessive demands for loyalty, fear tactics, isolation from the wider Body of Christ etc. (this of course is more or less evident depending on your local church).

When Jesus said, "Do what [the Pharisees] say, but not what they do," it put a lot of responsibility on ordinary people. He asked them to be so familiar with the Bible and what God is really like that they could look at their leaders and differentiate between the good and bad. The problems with TBS/GG are well documented, and have been confronted over and over. No church is perfect, but more and more people are migrating to healthier churches.

"If a man is truly repentant and restored before God, is it for us to repeat their sins in such a manner?"

There's no indication that Carl Stevens and others are repentant and restored. Biblical "fruit" of repentance include confession, taking responsibility, accepting the consequences, doing things differently. These things are not evident.

King David REALLY repented (Psalm 51), but the rest of his life was affected by his adultery/murder/cover-up, and the Holy Spirit saw fit to have his failure included in the most widely published book.

Some of the points you raise are classic GG self-protections, and not found in healthier groups; i.e. "We're winning souls, so God approves and don't criticize," "Instant no-fault rebound," "cover at all costs" etc.

Being exposed to wider Christian thought helps one see the nature of the problematic GG teachings.

Hope that helps a bit. Blessings!

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Well spoken John! Yes, the misdeeds of _all_ the leaders God saw fit to include in the Biblical record includes some of their most besetting sins and the repentances/restorations AND consequences that followed - all under God's sovereign, mighty hand.

There is simply no doctrinal formulation that can obviate this and place today's Christian leaders in a position where accountablity for their sin cannot be demanded.

As goes the "head", so the body follows.

I have absolutely no doubt that there could have been far fewer incidents of sexual abuse and immorality within the TBS/GGWO body had it's earthly head Carl H. Stevens practiced absolute Biblical circumspection in his behavior toward women and created an atmosphere in day-to-day ministry operations where sexual purity and the sacredness of family life were honored above external works that could be boasted about from the pulpit (e.g. number of "salvations', BIble Club Bus Routes, Countries impacted, etc.).

Brian Bowman
1 Cor 1:30

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Godsent,you made a statement that I have got to challenge.
You said,"You must also remember that eyeryone on here is not responding out of the spirit but of the flesh."

Every one? Every one?
I think that is delusional and rediculously broad brushing.
I think you know better than to presume upon the Spirit of God and His children in such a way.

There are many Spirit led people here on this forum and I find it insulting to see someone attack the body with such an unenlightened and biased statement.

Do you know the many tears that are shed in prayer for those who in your eyes we "attack"
by exposing the truth?

Yes there are those who have a grudge are angry are bitter,etc.
By far that does not include everyone here.
Many more are just seeking to bring correction and protection to those who need it.
Many more are hurt that those they Love are decieved and abusive to others they Love.

Love does cover a multitude of sins but it does not become an accessory to wickedness that harms others.
Did Jesus use even violence to eject the money changers? Yes.
I'm not advocating violence of course,just accountabilty for those who are commissioned to "feed" the sheep and have committed crimes and taught erronious doctrine.

Jesus was not tolerant towards those who used their position for self gain or control.
Every believer in Christ has the position of a priest.This has been run over with the false ideology that a pastor is the "Holy See" and is infallable.

To give "double honor" does not mean not to bring under accountability.It is to hold up in prayer those who are in positions to feed the flock because they will be held very accountable for what kind of food they serve.

We who know the Lord are to protect the flock as God calls upon us to do so.Not with malice but from Love.

Dave

</font>}

[lily_rose (lily_rose)]

I don't understand, sexual abuse??

When I first came to GGWO around 4 years ago, I was made to feel really guilty if my boyfriend/fiance (now husband) even held hands in church. I thought GGWO preached "no touch love" etc...?

john_krainis thank you for a clear and concise post and everybody else incl dave, nonotone.

I think that there are some beautiful Christians and Pastors in the ministry, but unfortunately Satan has crept in. I don't think that it is right to paint everybody with the same brush. A lot of people including pastors were totally unaware. This matter of the affair should never have been brushed under the carpet and in my eyes it is inexcusable in a church where the leaders should have integrity of the highest degree. My husband says that Pstr Stevens says he did it to "protect the body". I read these posts and then I speak to people who have met Pastor Stevens (I've never seen him in person) and they simply cannot believe he would do the things that he is accused of. Everybody speaks of his purity.

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

LILLY,
ON THIS THREAD THERE ARE ALL TYPES. SOME ARE CHRISTIANS, SOME ARE NOT, SOME WERE UNTIL TBS/GGWO AND ARE NO LONGER. WHEN I WAS TOLD BY GOD TO LEAVE THERE WAS A SERIES OF EVENTS THAT LED ME TO GO. I WAS ACCUSED OF READING THIS FORUM WHEN IT WASN'T THIS FORUM THAT HAD SPOKE TO ME, BUT GOD HIMSELF. THE SECRETERIES YOU MENTION I BELIEVE AT LEAST ONE IF NOT MORE COULD HAVE LEFT THEIR E-MAIL SO YOU MIGHT WANT TO TALK THEM MORE ONE ON ONE. EVEN WHEN I WAS IN, I WOULD BE AT THE GYM FOR INSTANCE AND A GOOD FRIEND WALKED UP TO ME AND ASK WHY WAS I IN THIS CULT. I DEFENDED CHS AND GGWO TO THE END. IN RETROSPECT I AM SORRY THAT I DIDN'T INVESTIGATE MORE CLOSELY. HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT I TOOK $50,OOO DOLLARS OF THE CONGREGATIONS HARD EARNED MONEY TO PROTECT THE MINISTRY. IT WASN'T HIS RIGHT OR PLACE TO DO SUCH A THING. THAT MONEY WAS MEANT FOR GODS' WORK AND MANY DID WITHOUT TO MAKE SURE THEIR TITHES AND OFFERINGS WERE IN THE COLLECTION PLATE EVERY SUNDAY AND WEDNESDAY. IF YOU WANT TO E-MAIL ME PERSONALLY I WILL BE GLAD TO TELL YOU MY EXPERIENCE IN A LITTLE MORE DEPTH THAN GIVEN HERE. I WOULD ASK THAT YOU WOULD KEEP THE THINGS I WOULD SAY IN CONFIDENCE. I DON'T HIDE BEHIND A FALSE NAME. MOST ALL HERE KNOW THAT MY NAME IS TOM MITCHELL. I RECEIVED MY LICENCE TO PREACH ON JUNE 29TH, 2002. I LEFT AND WAS ORDAINED THROUGH A DIFFERENT MINISTRY. I CAN ONLY TELL YOU OF MY EXPERIENCE AND ANYTHING OTHER THAN THAT IS HEARSAY. OF COURSE UNLESS WHERE THERE ARE TWO WITNESSES OR MORE. DON'T FEEL GUILTY FOR COMING HERE. I FELT THE SAME AT FIRST, BUT REALIZED IT WAS NOT OF GOD THAT I WAS FEELING GUILTY. AS FAR AS THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED BEHIND THE SCENES, WE JUST HAVE TO USE DISCERNMENT AND REALIZE THAT ANYONE CAN GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING THEY WISH AS LONG AS THEY PUT THEIR HEARTS TO IT. SHALOM TOM tmwhjd@yahoo.com

[nonotone (nonotone)]

lily_rose,

rj can comment further, but *historically* there have been a number of incidents of sexual abuse with TBS/GGWO. This *appears* to have been much more prevalent durning the days when the ministry was headquarted in Maine and then in Lenox. This is no doubt due to the more isolated campuses where many "Bible Speaks" people (this was prior to the move to Baltimore and the name change to GGWO) lived together in "comunity".

It is also true that Paul Stevens disclosed that he had been sexually abused as a child from the pulpit one Sunday evening. I was there when he did so, in Baltimore around the years 1999-2001*. It's anybody's guess as to why he waited until then to make this public (considering the incidents he reported happened in the late 1960's).

I to was dumbounded when I first learned of the Lang matter and Carl's involvement with it. However, over the past 15 months, I have taken pains to verify this matter and many others - including speaking to Alan Lang personally as well as other who were present in Lenox when Carl was observed in behaviors consistent with fornication (entering young women's rooms alone at night, being with them in motel rooms on trips, arranging transportation for them to meet him, etc.).

In person, Carl H. Stevens, was very convincing in the area of "being pure", after all, he had a lot at stake. Whatever covering up he did was ultimately to protect himself because he violated the very Scriptures he appeals to for authority in so doing.

You are indeed correct that it is wrong to paint everyone with the same brush. Some of the finest Christians I know, I met while in TBS/GGWO - especially my wife! In fact, I believe that God simply protected many of them from _any_ knowledge of these matters so they could they could serve Him with a clear conscience in His perfect, sovereign plan.


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

* after consideration, I'm pretty sure that Paul Stevens actually disclosed this in 1998-2000.

(Message edited by nonotone on October 30, 2005)

[rj_fernalld (rj_fernalld)]

The people who contact me these days about sexual abuse...are from Balitimore and were sexually abused in Balitmore. Children, teens, women....where people are indoctrinated to believe in the authority figures as "God's men" are easily fooled into believing that nothing so perverse happens...but it does. It did, it still does.

This organization and those who are purposly blind, those who partake of illegitimate power to abuse others....well...it's all about that millstone.

I didn't believe it either once...but I do now...I know people who have storues to tell that can be corroberated.

It wasn't just Maine or Lenox...it is rife in Baltimore as well. And the branch ministries are not exempt either, lilly_rose. Read the Deleware thread and you'll see just how the corruption spreads to Carl's favorite little preacher boys.

Brian, those that espouse the indoctrination are not "gpood Christians" until they understand the truth, shake off the lies and begin to live in the truth. Some of the so called good Christians in Baltimoremay in fact be well intentioned but are on the streets every week end spouting carl's false doctrines...they are decieved, perhaps good people at the core, but decieved and spouting lies nevertheless. They must be helped to see this so they can go on with God in a real church.

Brian...some of us knew about Paul's abuse long before he disclosed it. With everything else that has happened in recent years, it looks like the emotional abuse from his father et al never stopped. It continues to this day.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Lily-rose:"It's weird because I feel incredibly guilty for coming on here!"

Why? You're an adult and you should know all sides of an issue before you make any decision. Were anyone ever to try to tell me what I can read and what I can consider they would surely be sorry that they did. Why are the leaders of GGWO not gulity for trying to tell adults what they may and may not consider? Why are they not ashamed for having so little faith and so little assurance in their own intergrity that they do not belive that they can withstand any accusation and inquiry?

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
It is in the nature of God not to be intimidated by questions.

He has all the answers.

Dave
</font>}

[jayso (jayso)]

lilly_rose,

I too am leary of the "secretary's story" due to the fact that all her posts were written under a fake "nickname" and you are correct; THIS IS THE INTERNET! We don't know what is the truth and what is malicious gossip. Since this "secretary" (and we don't know if she was actually CHS's secretary!) is not willing to give her REAL name and the names of the alleged adulterers, we should take that entire story with a grain of salt and consider it a lie! A verdict demands evidence!

The Alan Lang story is TRUE. Pastor Stevens issued a letter admitting there was a cover up and a payoff regarding a pastor who "fell". The payoff was "hush money". This letter from P. Stevens is posted on the GGWO official website.

I posted a true story on the "communication" thread regarding things I PERSONALLY witnessed while at TBS. My REAL name is Jay Stern and my email address is jayso13827 at yahoo.com. When you get a first person witness to something that they SAW or experienced, you can pretty much believe it is true. Plus, if a person is willing to put their REAL name out there and provide specifics, you can drill them for details and seek additional evidence from others who also witnessed the "dirty deed".

If you have been led to believe that GGWO is the BEST church and is the only "finished work" church, the "one pastor teacher for life" church, the "geographical will of God" church, the church with the most accurate doctrines, YOU have been lied to and you should visit some other churches or search on the internet for other ministries. GGWO is a "closed society" as far as a church is concerned. There is a much wider "greater" Body of Christ in the world today that truly respects and co-labors with other branches of Christ's Body worldwide.

Ultimately, God's sheep hear HIS voice and the voice of another they will not follow. My prayer for you is that you truly HEAR God's voice in your Spirit and follow HIM where He leads you; even if it is to stay at GGWO!

[arguendo (arguendo)]

"I too am leary of the "secretary's story" due to the fact that all her posts were written under a fake "nickname" and you are correct; THIS IS THE INTERNET! We don't know what is the truth and what is malicious gossip. Since this "secretary" (and we don't know if she was actually CHS's secretary!) is not willing to give her REAL name and the names of the alleged adulterers, we should take that entire story with a grain of salt and consider it a lie! A verdict demands evidence!"

No. In courts of law witnesses are actually allowed to withhold their names in the right circumstances. Not using one's name is not a reason to presume what the witness says as invalid. Nor is it a reason to perceive such testimony as a lie. Such testimony is subject to the same standards as any other--the motivations and demeanor of the witness, the consistency of the story, and plausibility of the story.

However, I think it is reasonable to approach such a story with skepticism.

The importance of the FN is not necessarily just one story or another, its the preponderance of evidence that is found in so many stories and so many accounts--some attributed and some not. After a while one makes out a pattern of behavior that is unacceptable.

So I think there is a certain value pulling back from individual accounts and looking at the bigger picture--as in "can there be so much smoke with no fire?"

[whatsup (whatsup)]

Right....it is not just the secretary's story, which I found totally credible and believe completely, but many others that back it up. Her story made the pieces fit about things that I observed in Lenox and just pushed to the back of my mind, including my own conversations and interactions with CHS. Jayso, maybe if you were a woman you would have been more likely to experience his inappropriate behavior firsthand and would be less skeptical. And also less likely to publicize your name and all the details.

[lee (lee)]

I know her and she is telling the absolute unvarnished truth.

Thing is, she has more!

p.s. Lilyrose, this is my real name.

[lily_rose (lily_rose)]

^ Hi Lee. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

I did not mean to offend you. I am just being honest.

[lily_rose (lily_rose)]

I don't believe that GGWO is the only or best church. I was at another church since I was a child and only started attending GGWO 4 years ago.

I thought it was a nice church until my pastor &amp; pastors wife invited me for lunch and sat disclosing personal things about each and every member of the congregation to me including my (now) husband (who I didn't know very well and had only become a christian about 2 months before). He was supposedly very bad because he listened to "rock music". I left feeling overwhelmed by the amount of gossip that had taken place. I'd sat there wide eyed - thinking "I don't want to know this stuff!"

I have always thought the doctrines were over the top ie: "no touch love" but then I saw my brother blossom as a christian and he went to baltimore to attend bible college.He is a wonderful christian who has always been since a child. He loves God and has always been a person of great integrity. God is very real to him, he is a wonderful christian and doing a wonderful work for god within the ministry, so I put it down to it being 'just me'.

I have always felt immense pressure at this church, that until now I'd often put down to my own lack of spirituality. Grace is preached, but I sense so much legalism. After having a baby, I suffered from post natal depression which included extreme tiredness and feeling anxious a lot of the time. I'd been for blood tests etc because I felt too guilty to accept that I had "post natal depression" as a christian, I insisted to the doctor that their must be something else, these sypmtoms were too intense. I told my pastors wife the diagnosis (even though I was worried about her judging me) and her reply to me was "I could have suffered from post natal depression for 18 years if I wanted to". There is no normality or practical living, it appears to be taught but a statement like that shows it is not practiced. She went on to pretty much tell me it was because I wasn't obviously right with God or whatever.. I think its weird that you are not allowed to have "feelings and emotions" etc (things God has given us!). Our pastor actually apologused for saying "I feel" the other day in church and spent a while at the pulpit trying to think of a different word! I was shocked. It's so weird!

One year, I wanted to attend a new years party with my best friend who attends another church. The pastors daughter wanted to attend with me (she was over 18 - old enough to make her own decisions). The pastor and his wife were at my house with a few other church members. I was making sandwiches in the kitchen and they pretty much cornered me, speaking about the fact that I was going there and I shouldn't have told their daughter because it was my fault that she wanted to go because I'd obviously made it out to be better etc than the one at GGWO. I started crying and I even dropped a plate because I was shaking and trembling. I desperately wanted to do the right thing. I was so freaked out, it was so strange. I ended up going to the GGWO church thing.

I say all this (and there are a lot more weird events that have occured), but then I believe my pastor is not malicious, and has good intent. I know he loves God and I suppose that is why I have stayed despite all the incidents. He appears to have a loving heart toward the congregation (apart from the innitial lunch - which has never happened again and I kind of forgot about until now - perhaps they regretted it and tried to never speak like that around me again?). I have stayed away from any close encounters with them for a while now, and now I am married I am guarded by my husband who knows how I feel.

Writing about this I feel guilty as well as scared, that I may be identified by somebody and "reported" to the pastor or something. I have deliberately left out some extreme stories for this very reason. I don't know. I don't want to hurt anybody and I know they would be upset to even know I was on here, but at the same time, just remembering these incidents is making me realise why I feel the way I do about church, why I feel weird when I go etc. I no longer feel the desire to attend church and am often almost turned 'off' christianity. Everybody who attends our church leaves! It is still so tiny after years and years.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Lily Rose,

Sirpa/exsec did not put her name on her original posts for the same reason I did not at first or you do not. Later she did sign her name to her posts. She is Sirpa Buono, she was CHS's secretary for a long time. Her story is true and as Lee said, there is much more.

GGWO controls through fear and shame. Your posts express that fear and shame but you are clearly hearing from the Holy Spirit also. It is the Holy Spirit who is bringing back memories of the that first lunch with the pastor and his wife and the New Year's Eve incident. To stay in a high control group our minds must ignore the Holy Spirit's red flags or we will be very unhappy people. But as soon as that wall in our mind comes down then all we see is red flags. This is what is happening to you now. You received enough information to begin questioning things. Of course, this causes great emotional, mental and spiritual turmoil within. We have all been in the place you are in right now. It is a painful process but it is a process directed by the Holy Spirit and you can trust Him.

It is painful because within this counterfeit system are some very beautiful believers. You have a witness that they love God, you have connected spiritually with them, including the pastor and his wife. This is not a group who denied the deity of Christ, they love Christ. So it is very difficult to sort out what is of God and what is not. This discussion board's purpose if not to attack individuals but expose a system which causes individuals to practice behaviors contrary to Christ. Lily Rose, I do not ask you to trust us but I ask you to put your trust in the Holy Spirit's voice within and allow Him to lead you. You already are.. let the journey continue.

I can speak with great confidence on this subject as I have been down this road before you. I belonged to TBS/GG since 1977. My husband was a pastor, we were missionaries and when we left my husband was a staff pastor in Baltimore. I saw many many things which were unbiblical, immoral and hurt hundreds and hundreds of families. I do not have anger and bitterness in my heart but joy that the Holy Spirit was able to open my eyes and lead me out. I have posted under my real name for a long time. I have told the truth even when those came on the board and called me a liar. Overseeing pastors have left GGWO because of the same process you are going through right now. It happens to anyone willing to follow the Master's voice and not a system.

Lily Rose, I will continue to pray for you as you seek the truth and follow your Savior's voice. I can tell you even though it is painful and confusing now that further down this road you will find such joy. You will find that our Lord wanted you all along to experience Him in the uniqueness of who you are. You will find yourself in a place without fear, shame or guilt. Just ask any of us! Ask Lee and Sirpa and Bonniescott and RJ and Sojourner and Louise and Arguendo (though she was on to them from the get-go!) and all the guys too! You can write to me, or any of us privately. You can write to John Collins, he is a GG pastor who left just a few months ago after having his blinders ripped off. He has been a great comfort to many of us. God Bless you Lily, on your journey.

Jeannie Byrne
Jeannieree44@aol.com

[lily_rose (lily_rose)]

Thank you.

I am still confused but I understand exactly what you are saying and respect the way that you speak as you don't seem to want to tear anybody else down.

I will pray about this with my husband tonight.

The thing that confuses me the most is how can my brother and family who (who have studied at other bible colleges) be happy involved? How can they when they honestly have such integrity? I believe Pastor Schibelli is a wonderful preacher, and being used by God massively, so why is he involved if the ministry is so corrupt?

sorry I'm not trying to go round in circles, I have a lot of questions running around in my head.

[lee (lee)]

Lily Rose,
Jeannies post to you is written so beautifully I couldn't add to it, just encourage you to take her words to heart. She speaks the truth.

There are two secretaries that have posted here. Both speak the truth. Both could speak so much more!

No, Lily Rose, I am not the slightest bit offended. I tend to be straightforward in my writing. Maybe not as cultured as others, but if I was offended I'd say so! I don't think those in highly controlled groups are at ease at all with straighforwardness. I responded to you and the others because doubt was being cast upon someone who is telling the truth.

When you tell your story, I can see myself as the pastors wife, and the others that would try to control you. I can also see myself like you. Having red flags popping up all around me, wondering what was going on. Everytime I turned to the Holy Spirit however, things got a bit clearer. Many things changed in me. (thank God everyone!) This wil happen for you as well. Keep asking your questions. Keep reading. Keep going to God. He'll not lead you astray!


I say, question and scrutinize throughly, say what you think, but if others disagree, then let them. I was disagreeing with the doubt cast upon someone that is my friend (the other secretary!)

I'd like to hear from you as well.

lee
jack dot leonard at gmail dot com

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Lily, probably your brother is just in a different place than you. He still has his blinders on. Plus it is easy to get caught up in "the work." He has been ordained a pastor, GG has provided him with the vehicle to pursue to his heart's desire. You can't force blinders off, this is the slow, patient work of the Holy Spirit. Just keeping praying for him and be available to speak when the HS nudges you to do so. God is faithful to make the red flags apparent in your brother and his family.

I don't know the answer to why Pastor Schibelli would be involved in something so corrupt. I think sometimes we make small choices to ignore wrongdoing (for the sake of "the work") which eventually numb us into making huge wrong choices. GGWO is a closed society, if enough people say good is evil and evil is good then maybe one can convince themselves to believe it. Even a good man can find himself lost.

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Jack,
I didn't know your middle name was Dot.
Sorry brother,I can't help myself where humor is involved.

Lily Rose,
Don't you ever be afraid of anyone.
God is for you and who can be against you?
He'll never leave you nor forsake you,never.

He alone is your rock and your high tower.
A very present help in time of need.

Like Jeannie said,"trust the leading of the Holy Spirit."

God's blessings on you,
Dave
</font>}

[jayso (jayso)]

Arguendo, you are correct! When so many people unrelated to each other tell the same types of stories, they are probably TRUE. Like you said "Where there is smoke, there is fire".

The secretary story is old and obviously could not take place today because of CHS' age and health conditions. So if true, was in the past and CHS is no longer at the helm of GGWO.

What concerns me more than anything is the idea that some in GGWO leadership willfully and intentionally cover up criminal and / or immoral acts committed by fellow leaders or members of the congregation. That is inexcusable and would be enough of a reason for packing up and FLEEING GGWO immediately!

I am skeptical about some stories I read, but I have enough personal, direct experiential knowledge to know that TBS/GG is not a healthy church, cult, sect, or whatever you wanna call it.

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

LILY,
I CAN SAY FROM EXPERIENCE THAT WHEN I WAS IN, BEING AN ORDAINED PASTOR IN A WORLDWIDE MINISTRY IS SOMETHING PASTORS AND OTHER CO-LABORERS WITH THE LORD DREAM OF. JUST TO BE ABLE TO SIT ON THAT STAGE WITH ALL THOSE MEN OF GOD, NOT INCLUDING WHAT WE WERE TAUGHT ABOUT THE PRIVLEDGE OF THE PULPIT. IT'S SO EASY TO GET CAUGHT UP IN THE ENORMITY OF IT ALL. AND BELIEVE ME THE DRAW IS ENORMOUS. OVERWHELMING IS AN UNDERSTATEMENT. I WILL BE PRAYING THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL LEAD AND GUIDE YOU AND YOUR BROTHER INTO ALL TRUTH. GOD BLESS TOM

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Dear Lily Rose:

The only thing I want to mention is that this group thinks nothing of splitting up families if one family member questions the group. I pray God gives your family and you the strength to get away from GGWO.

[jayso (jayso)]

Prayerfully consider:

1. God
2. Family
3. Church

I am praying along with Louise that if and when you leave, your family will be intact. No church, religion or cult should have authority to split up a family. The family was instituted by God long before the church. -Jay

[exsec (exsec)]

Dear Lily,
I am SO glad that you are asking questions. That were it all starts! For so many years I was taught never to use my God-given thinking skills. Could I quote doctrine? Sure! That muscle was huge! It takes time to learn how to exercise the other muscle...I know how confusing it is right now for you (I have been there...). It is not an easy road and I think it is very corageous of you to take that first step!
I am the secretary, by the way, that has been mentioned on this thread. My name is Sirpa Buono. I was Pastor Steven's secretary for several years in Baltimore. I left GG in 1997 and moved to Franklin, TN with my family. Is my story true? Yes, however,I think it is very healthy not to just accept everything that you read or hear as a fact. Good for you!!
What I would encourage you to do is to do your own research. Study for yourself about what are the different factors that make a group a cult or cult-like. Look at the whole picture and then make an educated decision.
We will all be thinking about you!
God bless,
exsec

[lily_rose (lily_rose)]

thank you everybody. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[isabella (isabella)]

Lilly,

I too was in a 'branch'.

I thought it was fine...never wanted to think anything negative about anyone there, until I saw what they were really up to.

God Bless and Keep you and your family for Himself.

I am praying,
Isabella