High places

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I was going through some art this morning, and came across a painting of one of the temples in Italy. It suddenly struck me that we preserve these old places of other gods and goddesses and go to visit them as if we're paying honor. In Israel there are so many times that a new king would tear these kinds of things down and seek to do away with the high places. And here at the heart of Roman Catholicism, they're preserving them. And if you sought to tear them down, the whole world would be outraged. Perhaps someone should be praying for their destruction.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

At least these old buildings have some aesthetic value, same as the Mayan and Aztec ruins.

I'm praying for the destruction of a certain former strip mall............

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

YEA, LET'S TEAR DOWN THE BASCILLICA IN ST PETERS SQUARE. WHEN I WAS IN ROME, I NEVER LIKED THE OLD PICTURE ON THE CEILING ANYWAY LOL.

GOING GOING GONE TO PA

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

I believe that most visitors are appreciating the skills and talents of the architects and artisans who created the structures.

Maybe we can expand the concept and bulldoze Dachau or Auschwitz. After all, what could be more morally and spiritually repugnant than a Nazi death camp? Certainly, they were not created to pay homage to Christ.

Just another type of "book burning" served up with a side of Catholic bashing.

No thanks, I don't have the appetite for it today.

[lee (lee)]

Bob,
As an artist this sends shivers down my spine. Because we despise what the catholic church has done to our young children (and still is) do we destroy all artistic expressions that this church owns? They own so much that it is not even cataloged in its entirety. BTW, if they sold even a couple pieces of artifacts, they could pay off all lawsuits brought by those sexually abused kids. Insead, they have chosen to close their schools!

We should destroy works of cavemen because they had less revelation than we do?

Bob, I've missed you, but this arguement is not up to your usual thoughtful, albeit, sometimes unusual point of view! But please don't go away.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Bob, I actually wondered if you were speaking 'tongue in cheek'...people worship the sun but I still want it to shine.
Even temples built to other gods represent that part of man that needs to worship...how many temples are built in 'churchianity' in the name of Jesus that are really a testament to the greed and gospel of prosperity.
Paul addressed those who had worshipped the 'unknown' God...they were following the right instincts...he said, "here, I think I can help you get to know Him better."
Nothing intimidates God...Bob were you throwing that rock out intentionally to see who would say ouch first..I love and respect you so much so I can't imagine that you were being straight up on that line.
Sorry I never got out there this past fall...haven't given up yet...still would love to see you.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I wasn't referring to the properties of the Catholic Church. I was referring to old temples associated with the gods and goddesses. But at one point Christianity became the religion of the empire. A lot of these old relics were kept up in the same country that officially proclaimed Christ. In the Old Testament they were called high places. I have nothing against Catholics or architecture. The ovens of Auschwitz are considered a shame to the German people. The Colosseum where Christians were fed to animals are considered part of the glory of Rome.

If a serial killer built a beautiful home and tortured fifty kids to death in the basement, would you be ready to move in? I mean, after he was done. Personally, I'd rather just burn it down. And while I'm not saying the ovens should be destroyed, I'm not interested in visiting them. I'm not interested in the genius of tools and mechanizations of torture; its devices. And while i'm in the neighborhood, I don't approve of the CIA using them either.

Hey Patricia, I'd love to visit with you.

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

How Taliban-esque.

Shades of the Afghan Buddhas.

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

one of the interesting places i visited in italy this past summer was the temple of minerva in assisi... one of the oldest buildings in the town (much older than the more grand abode of famed st. francis), i found that sitting beneath it's columns was a beautiful experience. long ago it was converted to a christian church...

http://www.assisionline.com/assisi_minerva_temple.html

these places should be allowed to exist. long after their religious power has dissipated they bear witness to the yearning of the human soul to fill its need for God.

i'm not offended by these places at all.

OTP

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com

[lee (lee)]

This reminds me of when I thoughtlessly recommended a friend take his many boys to visit the Museum of Natural History in NYC. It's was free (still is) and for those of us with little kids and no money, it was a good day out. My boys especially like the bones of the Blue Whale (HUGE) hanging from the ceiling in a large gallery. My friend took my suggestion but came back disappointed saying, why would I want to bring my kids to see a bunch of old bones? They are better off learning to go soulwinning!!!

Ah, to each his own!! I thought it was wonderful to show the kids a creation of God that in their lifetimes, they probably would never see.......he thought the only important thing in life was winning souls. Could we both be right?

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

It's sort of interesting being taken as a conservative or right wing radical. I finally bought a copy of the third Harry Potter movie. It's only a movie. Fiction. Rowling doesn't worship other gods or sacrifice maidens in the hall. How many of you here would like to burn her books? I dare say a few.

I love art. Impressionists, Turner, Kandinsky and Pollock. Older things as well. I like those Picasso things in which he tore apart women's faces and reconstructed them. I like that classical music that's almost unbearably complex and full of dissonances and odd harmonies and structures. I like progressive rock and do not feel that music without Christian labels should be shunned. I read Kafka and P.K.Dick; and sometimes my Bible. It has this verse in it:

Hebrews 5:14 'But solid food is for full-grown men, for those whose senses and mental faculties are trained by practice to discriminate and distinguish between what is morally good and noble and what is evil and contrary either to divine or human law.'

[arguendo (arguendo)]

"The Colosseum where Christians were fed to animals are considered part of the glory of Rome."

Other people were lion food too, we just take exception to Christians being tendervitals.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

But Christians were hunted as a class, regardless of anything else about them, just as the Jews were by the Nazis. And I take just as much offense to the Jews being hunted that way as I do to the Christians. These things are offensive to God, are they not? What do you suppose that it means that our God is a consuming fire? Besides, I like cats.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

You gotta love message boards.. Never at a loss for something to talk about. This particular thread reminds me of my hippie days, sitting cross legged in a circle, waiting for your next hit while deeply discussing the absurd which seemed very relevant at the moment. Except back then you could walk away and no one would be able to recall the conversation. But here we have it in black and white, a monument of sorts.. just like the topic we are discussing.

Bob this whole thread was started as you were musing with keyboard in front of you. That's fine, muse away but to continue to defend a weak premise to begin with seems to be going no where. I'll pass on whatever it is your smoking.(said with a smile)

Here's a lovely story about St. Brigid to fortify my opinion that we must keep the art, keep the architecture, keep the ovens, keep all of it. It is part of human history and God many times cleverly weaves it into the redemption story.


ST. BRIGID OF IRELAND

by Mike McCormack National Historian.

February 1 is the feast of St. Brigid, often called the Mary of the Gael... St. Brigid’s life was a remarkable one, and the places in Ireland, associated with her, are scenes of pilgrimage throughout the year.

She was born in a society ruled by the old Gaelic Order and the Druidic religion. St. Patrick had already reached Ireland, and was in the process of changing all that, but though his message had reached the court of Dubhtach, the powerful Leinster Chieftain held firm to the old religion. In his religion, one of the most powerful Goddesses was Brid or Brigid, the Goddess of Fire whose manifestations were song and poetry, which the Celts considered the flame of knowledge. Her feast day was the first festival of the year and was held on February 1. It was the beginning of Spring; the working season for farmers and fishermen, and a time of husbanding of animals, and the Celts called on Brid to bless their work, and bonfires were lit in her honor.

Patrick did not condemn the Celts as idolatrous pagans, but explained their druidic customs in Christian terms, and gradually, Bible heroes and Christian saints began to replace the Celtic Gods and Goddesses on the Irish calendar. However, the personalities of some of the Celtic deities was so strong that they could not be replaced; one of these was Brid, and the rites associated with her continued to be practiced each February 1 right into Christian times. But that was soon to change.

At about 453 AD, a child was born out of wedlock between Dubhtach and one of his Christian slaves named Brocessa. The slave girl was sent to a cabin at the foot of the Cooley Mountains near Dundalk, Co Louth, to have the child. The baby was a healthy girl, which was no great joy to Dubhtach who wanted a son. The mother was sold to a Chieftain in Connaught, and the child was given to a Druid to be raised and educated. The child was named Brigid, perhaps to seek the blessing of the Goddess, for from the very beginning, there were indications that she was special....

Brigid grew in beauty, and her love for all of God's creatures knew no bounds. After her fosterage, she returned to her father's house as a slave, although she enjoyed the privileges of family. She was given to solitude, and loved to wander the woods befriending the animals. She was renowned for her generosity, giving much of her father's wealth away to the poor. Many are the stories attributed to this remarkable lady, including her journey on foot from Leinster to Connaught to find her mother, whom she freed from bondage, and returned to the house of Dubhtach.

In keeping with the life planned for her, she became a vestal virgin in service to the Goddess Brid, and eventually high priestess at the Kil Dara (the temple of the oak), a pagan sanctuary built from the wood of a tree sacred to the Druids. There she and her companions kept a perpetual ritual fire, in honor of Brid.

The exact circumstance of her conversion to Christianity are unknown, though it is certain that her Christian mother was a guiding influence. Some claim that she personally met St Patrick, which is possible since she was ten years old before he died, but there is no proof of that. Whatever the circumstances, Brigid and her companions in service to Brid, all accepted the Christian faith, and formed Ireland’s first Christian religious community of women....

Brigid changed the pagan sanctuary of Kil Dara into a Christian shrine, which gave its name to the present County Kildare. She extinguished the ritual fire of the Druids, and lit a flame dedicated to Christ which was thereafter maintained by her followers until it was doused by the forces of Henry VIII.

Brigid’s wisdom and generosity became legend, and people traveled from all over the country to share her wisdom. Her monastery at Kildare became one of the greatest centers of learning in Europe. She continued her holy and charitable work until her death in 525 AD, when she was laid to rest in a jeweled casket at Kil Dara. In 835, her remains were moved to protect them from Norse invaders, and interred in the same grave that holds the remains of St Patrick and St Columcille at Downpatrick.

So strong was the respect and reverence for this holy lady that she became the patroness of parishes, towns, and counties, not only in Ireland, but all across Europe. During the age of Chivalry, she was so revered as a model for women of every age, that gentlemen, knights, and nobles began the custom of calling their sweethearts, their Brides - a custom that has come down to this very day.

In Ireland, the people likened her to Brid, the ancient Goddess of fire and wisdom - for wasn’t Brigid’s life touched with fire, and as for her wisdom - that was undisputed. She even had a symbol. As the shamrock became associated with St Patrick, a tiny cross made of rushes was linked with St Brigid. Supposedly woven by her to explain the passion of Christ to a dying pagan, similar crosses are fashioned to this day as a defense against harm, and placed in the rafters of a cottage on the feast day of St Brigid - February 1.

So it was that reverence for this holy child of Ireland grew so strong that she not only eclipsed Brid, for whom she was named, but was given her feast day. And the Irish gladly accepted their new saint, and revere her to this day in place of a forgotten Celtic Goddess.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

The last time I smoked anything was in February of 1976, thanks. I take it you think those who tore down the high places and altars to other gods in the Old Testament were wrong then? Interesting. Really, sacrificing babies was just an alternative form of worship, and if they'd gone on long enough, surely they would have come to the truth.

[arguendo (arguendo)]

I dunno, Bob. I think I'm just far more put out by what people do in God's name than I am by the bad acts of pagans. I kinda expect pagans to act outside the boundaries of the Bible.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I definitely agree with you there Arguendo. And what would Jesus do? He went to the Jews. The high places torn down were in their own territory, and we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against prinicipalities and powers. And sometimes we wrestle against context, or with it. In different contexts, our wrestlings are supposed to be different. Since they are against principalities and powers, sometimes our wrestlings make no sense to flesh and blood.