Class Action

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

I heard in the past that there was going to be some sort of class action suit against gg for coercing monies and misappropriation of the money entrusted to them by us.

does anyone know anything about this? thanks

[lmao (lmao)]

It would be difficult to prove money was ever misappropriated. If you are talking about the one and only pay off of between four hundred and five hundred K that we all know about, that is not enough to make class action worth the time and effort necessary. Churches using money for church related activities is not misappropriation.

Coercion is a different story. If you gave money to GG like most Christians give money to churches as either a tithe or an offering to support God's work, you would have a difficult time proving coercion. My understanding regarding the Dovedenis case is that church leaders personally were involved in trying to convince her to give as much as she could by any means necessary. Even part of that was overturned because it was determined to have been freely given.

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

You don't think it is coercion to put people on a guilt trip with the type of offering messages given in GG??? Making them believe God won't be able to bless them financially? or that the reason a person is not blessed financially is because they don't give tithes to GG? I have heard it again and again. It is a form of brainwashing and fear tactics causing a believer to think God will be displeased with them if they don't give what they even don't have.

I heard numerous offering messages that said it is better to give your tithe than to pay your bills if you want to be blessed to be able to pay your bills.

Steve Taylor and Tim Munson are infamous in giving those types of offering messages. See if GG gives access to offering messages over the past 40 years.

Even mentions of selling your properties to give to the "work" of God to GG was in offering messages or in private raps. i heard it, i was there. i feared not giving 10 per cent of my social security check because i believed i would be chastened by God due to offering messages over and over and over again and reprimands in raps by chs because people didn't give.

and what about all the money we gave towards the "new church" where is that??? and where is the "new church"

If that is not coercion I don't know what is.

Nancy Curra

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

And secondly it wasn't until recently that Gg allowed people to see where the money went. We were not allowed that information in years past.

I know because I asked. And CHS said from the podium "what we do with the money is our decision, you don't decide what missionaries get money"

And you saying sweep under the rug the pay off money that was tithe money wouldn't be worth a suit???????????????????????????????? where did that thought come from??

I heard it I was there.

Nancy Curra

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

HEY NANCY,
GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU. THE MONEY FOR THE NEW CHAPEL IS STILL IN THE WHEELBARROW, ONLY NOW THE WHEELBARROW IS SITTING OUTSIDE OF CHS'S BEDROOM WINDER. HE TRYING TO MAKE SURE NO ONE GETS AWAY WITH ANYTHING. LOL. ALL OF YOU WHO ROBBED YOUR KIDS PIGGYBANKS OF ALL THAT CHANGE SHOULD BE ASHAMED LOL.
AND STEVE TAYLOR,( BRAIN WASHING NATIONWIDE) PUTTING THE HIT ON THE CONGREGATION FOR TITHES AND OFFERINGS, NO,SAY IT AIN'T SO. LOL NOT POOR TIM MUNSON, YOU MEAN "IF YOUR HAPPY, WERE DONE, IF YOUR NOT HAPPY, WERE NOT DONE TIM" IF THAT WAS TRUE THEY HAVEN'T FINISHED A JOB IN YEARS. LOL. IT'S SO AMAZING, HOW GREAT, MANY OF THE BODY MEMBERS THERE, PAID THEIR EMPLOYEE'S. THEY WOULD WORK YOU LIKE HEBREW SLAVES MAKING BRICKS WITHOUT STRAW. I KNOW OF ONE WHO NO MATTER HOW MANY HOURS YOU WORKED, NO OVERTIME WAS PAID. NOW, THAT WAS AND IS AGAINST THE LAW, BUT YOUR NOT SUPPOSED TO TAKE A "BODY MEMBER" TO COURT. WHEN ASK ABOUT OVERTIME, YOU WERE TOLD, "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORK FOR ME."
NANCY, I HEARD IT TOO. I WAS PART OF IT.
I LIKED THAT ONE NANCY, "YOU DON'T DECIDE WHAT MISSIONARIES GET WHAT MONEY." I DIDN'T KNOW THE LANGS WERE MISSIONARIES. WELL HOPEFULLY, WE ALL LEARNED FROM OUR MISTAKES. SHALOM GTP

[dragged_thru_mud (dragged_thru_mud)]

Do each of you believe hyperbole is credible?

[arguendo (arguendo)]

huh?

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

To Dragged

Main Entry: hy·per·bo·le
Pronunciation: hI-'p&r-b&-(")lE
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, from Greek hyperbolE excess, hyperbole, hyperbola, from hyperballein to exceed, from hyper- + ballein to throw -- more at DEVIL
: extravagant exaggeration (as "mile-high ice-cream cones")
- hy·per·bo·list /-list/ noun

Who is exaggerating? Are you serious? Are you kidding me? Exaggeration? Damn it that makes me mad.

And the Bible says I can be angry and sin not. so perhaps I will delete the "damn it" and just say that makes me angry if you were insuating that Gone and I were exaggerating.

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

anyway my point for this thread is not to recoup money. I could care less. I was just wondering about the class action suit that was mentioned here last year.

But I do have very strong opinions about how GG gets money from people, it isn't even Biblical. No where in the Bible do people stand up in front of a congregation and give such incredible reasons why people should give.

The New Testament church was taught to give and led by the Holy Spirit gave to the man of God, to benefit other sttuggling saints and so on.

I would just like Chapter and verse that justifies the way GG coerces money out of people. I mean can you please proove it with the Bible that what they do is correct?

thank you

Nancy

[nonotone (nonotone)]

... After the Lenox debacle, this biggest problem TBS/GGWO has with obtaining money is the total lack of true respect that the leaders have toward the hard-working folks who earn and give it.

In GGWO "Carly-word" your "job" is not really seen as a high calling. Oh yes, Carl and crew pay "lip-service" to the "saceredness of secular work", while at the same timeing brow-beat folks from "the pulpit" when they don't go to at least 3 services per week, raps, and most of all "SOUL-WINNING". Never mind that these fine folks are simply trying to use the Saturday's and Sunday Evenings to keep their families whole and strong!

You see, in reality Carl, et. al, act like it it is far more "spiritual" to be "in full-time ministry", than to "work for a living".

"Carly-world" becomes the center of your existence. You don't have (or you slowly lose) the time, energy, or even ability to be "salt and light" RIGHT WHERE YOU LIVE - that is your neigborhood, work-place, etc.

"Carl" defines Christianity for you and the other "top-dogs" ENFORCE his definitions on the GGWO proletariat. I don't mean this to sound "uppity" in any way, but what's interesting that I don't believe a single one of these guys could give a _credible_ defense of the Christian Faith to most of the folks that work and live in well-educated areas. This means that GGWO cannot reach like 40% of the population of the United States. Sad, very sad.


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Dragged
Do you believe minimalization is. I would guess that if you were a person at GG who never tithed then a penny could be hyperbole to this said person. But if you were someone on a fixed income let's say and you felt pressured to not only tithe, but to give genorously to the work of Carl, then a person who thought this was a farce instead of a reality, then I would call that minimization or reverse hyperbole. I guess when you not part of a group that couldn't find other work and you worked some 60 to 80 hours in a week out of town, away from family and church.When you came home with a check that not even was close to resembling what you had just went out and accomplished for this "Body Member" you were working for. Then your told by guys who make a living off of not paying their employess half of what their really worth, that you need to give til it hurts, now that could be hyperbole. Nancy, don't get your stuff in a bunch. There's not a damn thing wrong with being passionette about something you feel strongly about. Nancy you suffer from hypermnesia, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Dragged, is hyperbole credible? When, where, you need to be more specific. Shalom GTP

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Main Entry: hy·perm·ne·sia
Pronunciation: "hI-(")p&rm-'nE-zh(E-)&
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin, from hyper- + -mnesia (as in amnesia)
: abnormally vivid or complete memory or recall of the past
- hy·perm·ne·sic /-'nE-zik, -sik/ adjective

hahahaha you guys are killing me with these BIG words that I have to look up. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

thanks Tom...I needed to hear this.

love to your dear wife,

Nancy

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Nancy,

I'm getting an education just looking them up.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

"Give til it hurts". "Give or you're not putting God first" How many times have statements like that been used by self serving charlatans to manipultate people to give them more and more money to serve themselves with???? Amazing what people will do for money even when standing behind a pulpit!!

[nonotone (nonotone)]

. . . especially when they think they have been given "advanced revelation" from the Bible on virutally every subject known to man, oops woman too http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Yea, just like the " If your not here, (except for medical purposes) everytime that door is open, Sunday, Sunday night, and Wednesday, then you DO NOT love the Lord your God, with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Talk about manipulative! In other words, "We need you here at least three times a week so we can squeeze as much from your finances as we possibly can." What about when CHS would do the offerings and say "were really far behind in our budget, were about $22,000 behind in the budget and you are all going to have to give sacrifically and I don't want to do it, but I will take another offering as needed." Now that was as manipulative as it gets. That begging for change used to kill me, for the New Chapel. I seen folks who you could avctually here saying "I've been saving all the change I get." I watched some lady walk in with about at least 20 bags of quarters. Now you know that wasn't from the week, but people were actually digging into their change jars. WOW. Talk about digging deep!
The killer was they wouldn't end the service until they squeezed every plug nickel out of someone they could. I was ready for someone to get on their knee's and start begging. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif Shalom GTP

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

I wish Arguendo or Anon could respond to some of this. They seem to understand the law somewhat. I hate to see this continue on especially with the poor (and I mean financially poor) inner city people that are bussed in.

Also I can attest to BWN and Munson not paying their employees fair wages and expecting them to work long hours with no overtime.

They even force people to work Wednesday nights even when those poor dear people want to go to church. Munson and Taylor are well aware that they are causing guilt in these people bec of CHS mandates on attendance.

And the way they talk down to people and yell at people who work for them is just pathetic and they are not the only GG "Body" members who own business and exploit other Christian "body" members with the way they work and pay them.

My son work for a few of them and I could tell you stories that would curl your hair about these so called "Body" member business owners. It sickens me even now to remember it.

And these same business men are the very ones CHS usees to coerce yes COERCE money from unsuspecting Christians who just want to please God.

Give what you don't have...that is their premise...the widow gave all she had...and so should "you" GG unsuspecting congregation.

People say when you give you are giving unto God. While this is very true that when I gave it was unto God I never realized I had a choice not to give when I couldn't. I was fearful that I would be chastened by God or not be pleasing Him.

Please I am still waiting for someone to give me chapter and verse where it says that there should be a person asking for money such as the offerings taken in GG. Is it Biblical the way an offering is taken? thank you

Nancy Curra

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Munson and Taylor were not the only one's. I won't mention my ex-employee because in some ways he made things up to me, I think. I also put my life on the line and some serious jail time trying to bail one of his daughters out of a hot spot. Yes, work into Wednesday night and tommorow when we have our 10AM breaK, you will feel like absolute doggy doo because you were not at service and you would have to here how "Bloody AWESOME" it was.,how absolutley annointed chs was and how you had "missed out on a good one" Amazing how they would also send us out of town and expected us to put in 15 hrs a day or more, even on Sundays. I told my boss he could kiss my grits, he wasn't getting anymore out of me than 12hrs a day, if that wasn't good enough send me home or don't ask me to go out of town. The real problem was the overtime. I mean come on now guys. I have been to your houses and it sure doesn't sem like your struggling to hard. I wish all my kids were riding around in Volvo's. I once ask my boss about overtime and he stated if he had to pay it he would have to go out of bussiness. I wonder what would have happened if he would have got caught not paying it? GGWO body members were famous for paying the lowest wages. I brought a friend of mine from prison to GG and he met a beautiful woman there, they were married and he started his own bussiness. Well, I don't know the guy, but he hung around pastaah quite often. You might recognize him, dark hair and a real big head. Very quite. He would get jobs like putting all the trim in housing projects and other jobs like that. My friend had helped him do some work and he tried to stiff him. You should have seen it, ducking and dodging around one of the Veaters who was guarding carl, while my friend was trying to slowly chase this guy around the parking lot so as to get his money. When he cut around the back of one car Mike V. said "what's goinn on heear?" I told him the guy burnt my friend for a months pay, he just smiled and walked away. We caught him right at the corner of carl's caar. He ask me what was I doing and I told him making sure no one else jumped in if my friend decided to take affirmative action. He told me to walk away my friend would be OK, that's when I said "that's alright, I'll be right here." Brother J.... about choked this guy and he started crying, I'll pay, I'll pay, give me a chance to get the money. He was made to write a check right there and was followed to go get the money. I always wondered what CHS thought of the whole fiasco going on not 6ft from his caar. He sure didn't send one of his body guards over to protect his homeboy.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif Gee, I hope I'm not being to hyperbole at this time. Love ya Nancy. Shalom
Gone to Pennsylvania.
At our church the offering bucket is passed once, and all they do is pray for it. Nothing fancy. Very laid back. Before that they send out response cards to see what you got out of the message so you can throw your response in with your offering. Plus every week you can look in the Sunday Bulletin and see what was given and where it went to. I heard one guy say that they encourage you to come look at the books anytime you please.

[jayso (jayso)]

Hi Nancy,

Sadly I don't think any legal action can be taken against a church for the way they ask for donations. Almost every church and radio/tv ministry does it the same way. It is not illegal.

PT Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute. If you're money has been sucked up by TBS/GG, just be thankful you are not giving any more now. You learned an expensive lesson!

A few years ago, PTL club (Jim & Tammy Fay Bakker) was sued by contributors because they were promised a time share in a condominium which the church was supposed to build. Turned out the church did not build enough units to allow the fulfillment of the contract with the donors. PTL got shut down and sued by those who lost their money in a real estate scam run by a "church".

That is very different from how TBS/GG raises funds. Nobody was ever promised a condo or a beach home (except CHS if the donations were high enough!).

[dragged_thru_mud (dragged_thru_mud)]

I'm sorry I feel very bad for people because of what happened at GGWO however a very high percent of what is posted here is badly embellished.


GTP I don't believe I have met you. When you have a job that treats you as poorly as you have written about you need to use the two feet the Lord gave you and walk away.

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Dragged I am so sick of your uppity tone. We are eye and ear witnesses. I am not a liar. Nothing I have said is embellished in any way so please keep your motley opinions to yourself or reveal who you are and tell us, better prove that we are lying. You can't because it is all true.

Nancy Curra (very involved in GG ministries for 15 years, in a wheelchair, sat in front of the pulpit every service, nearly every rap, after and after and after rap...Know the people I am speaking of personally, worked for a few myself... I am not a liar nor an embellisher. I will be more than happy to confront each and every person face to face or by phone.

And my dear until you yourself have worked for these men as many of us did you best be quiet about matters you have no personal knowledge of

Nancy Curra
54 years old
very much cognizant
a Godly woman of integrity
Confront these people with my name and ask them if I am exaggerating truth
I am not afraid, never will be again, not fearful of making people accountable for their ungodly actions and exploitations of unsuspecting trusting Christians

[arguendo (arguendo)]

Hi Nancy,

Hope you're well. Nancy, there two sets of laws involved here. The law of gifts and the law of contracts. The reduction of the law of gifts is that there are no strings attached in the conveyance of property from giver to givee. Specifically, you give with no expectation of anything in return. If there was something said or something done regarding the conveyance that gave you an expectation of something in exchange for your property, then you are no longer in the realm of gifts, but rather in the realm of contracts.

Now some of what you complain of appears to be fraud in the inducement.

fraud in the inducement
n. the use of deceit or trick to cause someone to act to his/her disadvantage, such as signing an agreement or deeding away real property. The heart of this type of fraud is misleading the other party as to the facts upon which he/she will base his/her decision to act. Example: "there will be tax advantages to you if you let me take title to your property," or "you don't have to read the rest of the contract - it is just routine legal language" but actually includes a balloon payment.

Now whether this applies to anyone depends on personal circumstances. Did someone lie to you to the extent that you acted against your own best interest? This is much more likely, as opposed to coercion, because coercion implies actions that prevent the exercise of free will on the part the giver. Personally, I think most things given to GGWO are given through an exercise of free will.

Regarding a class action suit, it has become very hard to get classes certified. Class action suits are for the convenience of the court and continuity of decisions in multiple jurisdictions. Classes must get certified by a judge which means the judge says that the people in the class have been harmed in the same way and have the similar damages and thus the complaints can be heard in one trial. Typical class actions are for bad drugs and bad medical devices, but can be for breech of contract. ( Think AOL). I have always thought the Alan Lang thing was a good candidate because I very much doubt that at any time that GGWO was asking for money did they indicate that they money would be used as pay off for cuckolded husbands, but 500K is not a lot money in the big picture. Class actions suits are often very expensive for attorneys to litigate and they are only interested where there are very deep pockets and better than 50% chance of winning. So,personally, I don't see a claim against GGWO that would get certified for class action, but since I'm not an expert on this, that opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Regarding working without overtime, that is the jurisdiction of the IRS and the State taxing authority. Relief is probably still available because the IRS and the State have long memories and you cannot agree to break the law. Let me say it again, you cannot contract to break the law. That means that you cannot agree to not be paid overtime if the law says its payment is required. So, regarding just compensation for work performed either you choose to make a complaint or you don't. In addition, the IRS is very skeptical of the theory that one can donate hours of work to a job you are otherwise compensated for. BTW, a fair wage is anything that someone agrees to work for that is at least minimum wage. While things are a bit different where someone accepts salary, the theory of "salary" cannot be used to circumvent the law regarding minimum wage.

[dragged_thru_mud (dragged_thru_mud)]

You were there 15 years? I have been involved a lot longer than that. In fact my car has 130,000 miles on it too. Pardon me for having a different opinion.}

(Message edited by Dragged_thru_mud on December 05, 2005)

[no_touch_love (no_touch_love)]

Didn’t Sol Rosenburg sue Carl/GGWO for Punitive Damages?

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Dragged my POINT is that you have accused us of embellishing, exaggerating, as much as said we are lying about things we have first hand knowledge of.

dragged_thru_mud (dragged_thru_mud)
Junior Member
Username: dragged_thru_mud

Post Number: 47
Registered: 5-2005
Posted From: 216.210.216.254
Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 9:27 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You were there 15 years? I have been involved a lot longer than that. In fact my car has 130,000 miles on it too. Pardon me for having a different opinion.

(Message edited by Dragged_thru_mud on December 05, 2005)

"Pardon me for having a different opinion." quote from Dragged

I don't care if you have been there a million years OPINIONS are not FACTS, FACTS are FACTS.

Arguendo, thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions. It was so kind of you to do so and I appreciate it. I hope it helps others reading here.

Blessings,
Nancy Curra

[aurora (aurora)]

It seems to me that the most likely issue GG could get legally screwed over is their long history of violating INS rules regarding foreign "students". I remember even up to a couple of years ago "illegals" living in "body" peoples' homes or basements.

Does anyone know if anything has come of this?

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

No Dragged,
Apparently you nothing about me, but that's alright. I came out of prison looking for work when I arrived at GG. BWN had a open ad running in the church bulletin in the "help wanted" section. After being home for almost 15 weeks and asking Steve Taylor over and over as he first said yes then said no, back and forth more than a few times. See Dragged, when your a ex-convict with a record as long as a station wagon and your in your mid-forties, it's not like people are biting at the bit to hire you. Jobs for people like myself are far and few between. At the time, my wife was pregnant and I needed to find work yesterday, if you can feel that. Finally, another body memeber hired me after almost 16 weeks of going to raps every day and looking in the paper. See Dragged, there is usually a place on the Job application that says, "Have you been convicted of a felony in the past 7 years." I always chose to answer that question honestly, though I have lost more jobs than I can count where the app. states explain on back. So unless you have walked in the shoes I have you need to take the two lips the Lord gave you and superglue them together, because it doesn't matter how long you were there , to insinuate embellishment means to add ficticious details then you my friend need to one, learn how to talk to a lady, (Nancy) and two keep your lying <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> opinions to yourself. Who sent you as God. Are you omnisciencent? Do you possess a perfect knowledge of all things always? If you haven't been where Nancy's been then how dare you accuse her of lying in the name of another opinion. That's not just another opinion, you have accused the both of us of lying. What's your real name Dragged, The accuser of the brethren? Because if it's not your doing a dam good job. Number two, I don't lie anymore, if I won't for a job, why would I lie here, to make my ex-employers look bad? And as far as taking my two feet and taking a walk, you must live in bizzaro world, what was I going to feed my three children that week.

Now onto you Dragged. Who are you? My name is Tom Mitchell. In GG apprx 8yrs. In Grace Overcomers ministry entire time at GG. Liscense to Preach 6/22/02. Preached and taught in Men's rehab's, Mission's and Prison's accross the state, but mostly Baltimore City and County.Who are you. Wait, don't tell me, you can't say? Are you another Little Boy Blue come to hear yourself blow your own horn. If anyone here has related a personal story about GGWO and they have embellished or a hyperbole has been used, man or woman up and accuse them and straighten us all out on all the lies here on FN. If you don't have any evidence, please refrain from accusations and inuendo's. GTP Tom Mitchell

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

TOLD YOU NANCY! NANCY, I WILL AGREE WITH YOU. THANK YOU MY PRECIOUS FRIEND IN CHRIST FOR SHARING YOUR HEART AND THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH. IT IS A SHAME MORE FOLKS ARE NOT LIKE YOU. SHALOM GTP