Toxic Faith

[lmbles (lmbles)]

This is my first time writing on FactNet, though I've been reading it for quite a while.

I've been out of GG for a year. In fact, I was asked to leave one of the branch ministries, along with some other families in my church. Apparently it's not allowed to disagree with or question the pastor, even if it is in love, and follows the biblical model. It was awful what happened to us. MONTHS of meetings with the pastor and elder, pages and pages of biblical appeal, hours of broken pleading with them to open their eyes. They aren't wiling to change.

It's taken a long time and a lot of pain for me to see how good it was that we took a stand against such a ministry and are no longer affected by it. It's quite a while to re-train my mind. We have studied and sought the Lord on various matters. The more we talk with friends who are still involved, the more shocked I am to see how much they CAN'T THINK or reason. It's sad.

I think everyone who is IN Greater Grace or has LEFT Greater Grace should read the book, TOXIC FAITH, by ARterburn and Felton. I will post some notes from the book.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Great book, lmbles.

Praise God you and your family are out.

[lmbles (lmbles)]

The second part of this one is extremely revealing.

*****************

TOXIC FAITH NOTES 3

Common causes of religious addiction:

- abusive parent
- feeling alienated
- perfectionism expected from imperfect parents (demeaning)
- high expectations (demanding)
- low affirmation (no positive feedback)
- parents with addiction problems
- absent father
- feeling dirty (from abuse)
- poor peer relationships
- vivid fantasy world
- unshared feelings

RELIGIOUS addicts have a desire to escape. They will distort or deny reality. The enter into an unreal world where people, ideas, or rules replace a relationship with God.

They appear to be serving God, but instead, they are serving themselves. They aren't worshiping God. Instead, it's a religious experience that distracts them from reality. Their faith becomes perverted and exploited, and they are really worshiping self.

Religion is not such a threatening compulsive behavior because acitivity is supposed to be for a glorious purpose. Eventually, our compulsive behaviors control us.

FIRST STAGE:

In a toxic-faith system, one's emotions aren't healed and their thinking doesn't change. All it takes is affirmation. Any relief from pain and emptiness is a counterfeit. Any sense of hope (even if it is false) becomes dependency. There is a pressure not to disappoint their new source of love.

There is increased church attendance so they feel significant and secure. Staying busy helps them to avoid life rather than being equipped for life (which is what church is designed for).

Other elements of the 1st stage of toxic faith:

- stress (impairs judgment)
- disappointment
- miserable existence
- insignificance
- lonely
- guilt
- insecurity
- looking for geographic cures (fresh start)
- feeling abandoned by friends / family
- loss of interests
- withdrawal
- faith attached to a person (dependency)
- affiliation to a group
- high church attendance (avoidance)
- conformity
- lack of intimate relationships
- denial and self-justification
- scriptures used as a weapon

MIDDLE STAGE:

Religion becomes an addiction because of the desire to take away pain and remove the weight of being a responsible person. Often, one will live in the protection of denying reality and holding on to false hopes and magical thinking. They are full of activity and diversions from God.

Often times it is not an encounter with God, but just a chemical reaction. It is self-edification. They are looking for a religious high.

They try to recruit others to the organization or to the experience, not to the faith. They are not attempting to bring them closer to God.

There is a desire to exhibit special gifts and gain approbation of other followers. Genuine spiritual gifts can be perverted and exploited. They should be exercised in humility, not used for self-elevation.

The goal of toxic-faith is to please the leader. The greater the demand, the more one performs.

Other elements of the middle stage of toxic faith:

- immersed in the system
- knows group propaganda (quotes leader often)
- outspoken
- gives lots of money
- doesn't relate to people outside the group
- develops other addictions (food, drugs/alcohol, sex)
- claims of special anointing
- increased pressure to perform
- survival (dependent on the system)

LAST STAGE:

Addicts won't listen to reason. They begin to isolate themselves. All family responsibilities are neglected. This may cause job loss or financial disaster. Playing the role of martyr is easier than being a faith warrior.

There begins to be a weight and burden of continually acting as if all is well, compounded with the stress and disappointment. They grow resentful because nothing turns out as expected. They are angry because they can no longer fool others with the look of false peace and serenity. They are angry because there is undelivered relief.

They become suspicious, distrustful, confused, psychologically and emotionally disturbed. There is disillusionment and doubt. They are unable to trust their perceptions, or anyone else.

They are angry with themselves and project it onto others. They usually pick a scapegoat, as if THEY were the source of all the problems. Anything other than self is the target of rage and blame.

If they do try to change, it'll be behavior, not the heart.

This often leads to deep depression. They feel powerless to control their lives. There is a sense of desperation, and they consider suicide. They don't care who they hurt. They feel betrayed by God and humiliated. They have no motivation to seek God without work, performance ritual, or a need for perfection.

God allows us to be dependent on ourselves, chemicals, rituals, or religion. He allows us to exhaust all of our resources and explore every area outside his plan. He's patient. He waits. We've never wandered too far.

other elements of the last stage of toxic-faith:

- despair, hopelessness
- refusing to change beliefs, but trying to change behavior
- inability to function
- physical deterioration, fatigue, loss of appetite, medical complications
- stagnation as they ponder past mistakes
- need a fix (other addictions intensify)
- fear
- collapse - runs out of self-will and finally turns to God

What a toxic-faith system look like

1. claim special character, abilities, or knowledge

The leader sets themselves apart. They misuse scripture. They claim a direct link to God, and they manipulate the ignorant follower who believes in his sincerity. This claim of divine direction is dangerous.

It is a misconception that someone can have a "special" calling, destiny, or mission. It is based on a psychological need to be valued or esteemed. We all have a purpose. This is an abuse of a high position to build a self-serving ego.

This kind of special claim takes away power from God, and usurps His authority. Instead, it forces the follower to submit to dictatorial rule.

To challenge authority or the accuracy of leader is blasphemy. The leader becomes the absolute authority, and they are above accountability. Power often corrupts, especially organizations where there is no accountability. The leader has the ability to spend more, build more, and sin more.

They often claim special powers.

2. authoritarianism

The organization revolves around a dynamic leader and his vision. His name is all over the ministry. He has a very charismatic personality. His has a driven personality, and lots of talent. He is persuasive and manipulative.

People's talents are used to meet the needs of the leader, not to serve God.

Underneath the ego of the leader is a person who fears being unimportant. He uses his authority to prop up feelings of inadequacy.

They have a license to dictate, and present an illusion of accountability. They pick "yes-men" elders or deacons who are easily manipulated or fooled. This rubber-stamp group gives credibility to the leader's moves.

Followers unquestioningly accept his teachings and give complete support without any criticism. Anything negative is perceived as a threat and must be eliminated so the ministry can survive and the mission can be accomplished.

3. "us vs. them" mentality

The organization establishes themselves as more godly, compared to others. They stress their uniqueness. They claim special knowledge or insight unavailable to or unattained by others. They have an attitude of superiority based on some ritual or practice.

They make personal attacks on "sinners" (others) while they glorify and exalt the "saints" (themselves).

Everyone is either looked at as supportive or destructive. They are ready to go to war at any sign of a threat, and people who haven't made a similar investment are enemies. Outsiders have no understanding of what is "really" going on.

They lose focus on God, and instead it becomes a complicated process of furthering the society and its rules.

It would be unthinkable for this organization to admit when the mission has gotten off track, confess wrongs, and bring it back in line with biblical teachings.

4. punative nature

It could be a small congregation.

They punish or purge anyone who upsets the status quo or the leader's integrity. They remove anyone who would attack the minister's power

5. overwhelming service

Compulsive work-aholism. People are involved in numerous groups, committees, meetings, etc. They sacrifice family and friends to meet the system's needs.

They are activity-driven. Doing is central to their faith. They are serving their own ego, not God. They seek greater notoriety within the system's hierarchy.

Faith condemns and worsens their feeling of inadequacy. It is a rigid system where people feel they can work to earn salvation; perform to merit God's acceptance.

Eventually, they show signs of depression, anxiety, and a general numbness. They have distorted emotions, and they can't think clearly. They suppress their feelings and present a happy, peaceful glow; an image of perfection. The pain surfaces in the form of emotional despair and physical illness.

They only find relief when they break down, forced to examine their true condition and limitations.

7. closed communication

They refuse to honor differences of opinions.

Top-down or inside-out. Something is only valid if it comes from the leader, or if the organization is telling outsiders. The top doesn't listen to the needs of the people. Insiders now longer care about the needs of outsiders.

They develop selective hearing and religious superiority.

***** MY DISCLAIMER: There is a fine line between order, dogmatic doctrine, absolutes, and an abuse of authority. Don't throw all out and say it is toxic. We can't make such simple comparisons between family and church. ******

This is also common with fathers. He considers his children's opinions as insignificant. He ignores their needs, thoughts, and feelings. He only values his words to direct and punish. The children then feel inadequate to express themselves and their desires. This is often re-created in an organization.

People are assigned to close off unwanted communication with the leader by running interference and only telling him what he wants to hear.

This system discounts the importance of the individual. Open communication values people and allows them to be heard. Closed communication loses touch with human needs because they don't care about the people they serve.

8. legalism

Rules are a distortion of God's intent and they leave Him out of the relationship. They don't reinforce faith or strengthen the relationship with God.

Conformity is expected to a predictable pattern of behavior or appearance. Robot disciples believe life is found in the implementation of rules.

9. no objective accountability

There are no healthy relationships that they stay connected to.

10. labeling

This system discounts those who oppose their belief. The system avoids dealing with disagreement. Instead, they want to kill the reputation of the sincere saint in an effort to dehumanize the critics (a military tactic). They don't deal with individuals, but use labels such as "detractor," "traitor," or "malcontents." The labels are used to squelch a revolt of people who are supposedly trying to destroy the ministry.

They can't see people as real people with real needs who have potential for good judgment. Instead, they simply have a rebellious spirit.

Anything contrary to the pastor is traitorous, and they are usually asked to leave because it is contagious.

[lmbles (lmbles)]

This is the last set of notes from Toxic Faith. I pray you're blessed by them. This book certainly helped me to see unhealthy characteristics in the church, but also in my own soul. It helped me with a lot of healing and groth.

**********************

Wounded individuals are easily caught up in a toxic-faith system. As each person fits into the structure, their identity and individuality are sacrificed to meet the demands of the system. People should have independence - use their emotions, intellect, and free will. If they can't function independently, they depend on eachother to play their roles.

Only when a person hits bottom and evaluates their self destructive behavior will they see any better alternatives.

The leader (of the family or organization) usually replaces God and poisons everyone's faith. There is an unhealthy, top-heavy structure. But they need helpers to do this.

FIVE DIFFERENT ROLES IN A TOXIC-FAITH SYSTEM:

1. PERSECUTORS

They were usually deprived of love or smothered with love as children, so now they compensate by victimizing others. They are looking for acceptance and security.

They live in the idolatry of altered moods and self-obsession. They worship their feelings. They create a false reality so they feel significant.

Rejected when they were younger, they don't want to risk it now, so they are great performers. Aside from people's applause, they feel worthless.

The challenge is to prove that they are capable. They are driven to achieve and obsessed with success. They appear to be self-sufficient and self-satisfied. They expect great monetary reward from God as evidence of his approval.

They fall in love with God's gifts, not the giver. They worship or idolize the by-products of the relationship with God, rather than God himself.

They don't develop intimate relationships. There is much unresolved anger, insecurity, and fear of rejection. They are always in search of relief from being disappointed, and they find safety in hiding pain.

Persecutors use guilt, shame, and remorse on their victims. They make them feel like they've disappointed them, or God. A persecutor father makes his children feel responsible for this image and future.

They act out of compulsive behavior, not conviction.

Repentance means to turn. Following their sorrow and acts of contrition should always be a plan for change. Perhaps they shouldn't continue in leadership if their behavior is immoral. They need accountability.

They can be delivered by feeling the pain of being treated unjustly and learning how to forgive.

other characteristics:

- defensive
- control freak
- seeks power
- sees world in black / white
- attitude of superiority
- self-centered
- blames others for own failures
- positive observable compulsions, negative hidden
compulsions

2. CO-CONSPIRATOR

This person manipulates, plots, and plans to keep the persecutor in power and position. They are the yes-man or yes-woman who protects and defends the persecutor. They are the caretaker of the persecutor's image, and rescue him from crisis. They feed his ego and further blind him from reality by agreeing and supporting with loyalty. This is an active role.

They do this to gain favor in the persecutor's eyes. They live in delusion. They often feel inferior, and are seeking significance of God on a human level. They're assured of their own worth and value by being dedicated to the persecutor, and they feel good to be a part of something big.

Some women are addicted to submission because they don't have to accept responsibility for anything or make important decisions. This is dependency.

Co-conspirators must be willing to stand alone.

other characteristics:

- keeps things running smoothly in the toxic-faith system
- willingly deceives others
- rewarded for distorting truth
- personal feelings tied to the value of others
- feels weak and inadequate
- lives to be appreciated and recognized
- viewed as trustworthy, competent and reliable

3. ENABLER

This person allows victimization in the toxic-faith system, but doesn't promote it. It is a passive role.

They believe any lie or rationalization as if it will maintain peace and status quo. They are the faithful followers. They justify their behavior by a false understanding of being under submission. They won't confront because of obedience and loyalty.

They are insecure, and unable to think for themselves. They go along with the group consensus and allow the system to survive because they have no hope for change.

They believe the persecutor is a victim, and they feel responsible for everything, so they make more sacrifices to prevent the pain of change. They have unrealistic expectations for themselves, and carry the weight of the world. They fear they won't survive unless they comply.

They sometimes know something is wrong, and want it to change, but feel powerless and dependent, and unable to face the consequences of change.

They don't want to rock the boat. Their support fuels the delusionary existence of the persecutor. Enablers become inwardly angry at living an unfulfilled life.

4. VICTIM

These people are used to meet the needs of those in authority. They are compliant people. They cause no problems, and offer blind support and allegiance. They sacrifice their individuality, personal needs, their money and time to support the system so they feel important and valued. They wait to carry out the next assigned duty, often motivated by fear of rejection and abandonment. Victims would rather be exploited than be alone, so they act as if is a privilege. They sacrifice self-respect to gain acceptance.

These people are spiritually dependent and loyal. They lack an identity, and have been stripped of reason. Many have even lost a desire to draw close to God. There are often feelings of betrayal, and they lack confidence in their own ability to identify trustworthy people. They are very emotional in the practice of their faith, and are addicted to the martyr complex.

In order to recover, victims need to learn to trust no one but God. They need to learn the value of free choice, not just the pressure to conform. They need to understand the unconditional love of God. Then they'll be free to meet the needs of others because of love, not manipulation or coercion.

5. OUTCAST

These people see the problem and confront it. They are unwilling to play games. They stand up for what is right and challenge the system. They often lose jobs, friends, and a church. They are the lone voices in the wilderness, crying out for change.

They are often identified as troublemakers and pushed out of the system. They are labeled as negative; not team players. They're rejected by the organization, who allows no room for disagreement.

Outcasts have keen insight. They clearly see the problems and press for solutions, even if their perception contradicts the majority.

They are unimpressed with position or personhood. They want to protect God's people from spiritual fraud. They are dedicated to God, not to egos or empires. They want to tell the world that "the emperor has no clothes."

They are willing to stand alone and be rejected. They are often treated as a leper and endure shame for their actions.

*************

All toxic-systems grow through illegitimate desire for profit, power, pleasure, prestige. Their followers are addicted to a sense of belonging. They use rationalization, justification, minimization, denial, projection as means to distort the real causes and motivations of toxic behavior. Religious addicts avoid the reality of conscience and live with an overwhelming sense of shame.

chapter 8 RULES OF A TOXIC FAITH SYSTEM

1. The leader must be in control at all times. This control is only an illusion. It is a faith in self, and it replaces trust in God.

2. When problems arise, find a guilty party to blame. This may be a person, a situation or circumstance. They take no responsibility.

3. Don't make mistakes. Religious addicts are perfectionists. They feel shame upon failure. They want to avoid ridicule or criticism to obtain acceptance or love. They live in fear. People in the system deny and repress their humanness, and they increase their involvement so they can measure up. They are product-oriented. They must acknowledge their sin and realize their need for a savior. Pure faith is process-orientated. Failure shouldn't produce shame, but it should lead to repentance and reliance on Christ.

4. Delusion - don't point out the reality of the situation. They create the illusion of things running smoothly, and everyone becomes a submissive servant.

5. Perpetual cheerfulness. Religious addicts learn to only express positive feelings, and everything else must be hidden.

6. Blind loyalty. Don't ask tough questions because it reveals doubts, or is perceived as a personal attack or threat to the system. They accept the fact that a "common" person just wouldn't understand.

7. Conformity - don't do anything outside of your role, otherwise you'd be rebellious and unstable. Don't be risky and break the norm, or you'll be shamed as a "sower of discord" and removed from your position.

8. Mistrust. Toxic faith systems discourages intimate relationships and blocks vulnerability. The leader is the only one who can be trusted. Fear grows among the followers.

9. Give money to the organization, not as a faith response, but as a means of funding. They respond to manipulative, desperate pleas for money and false promises of relief or wealth.

10. Spotless image. Don't admit problems or ask for forgiveness. Religious addicts live in denial so they can protect the image of the leader. They cover all flaws and attack people who rebel, making THEM the problem, not the system. They live in deception and lies.

If there are enough outcasts, that cracks the facade and people will see clearly.

Chapter 9 TREATMENT AND RECOVERY

* Break through denial. You must be willing to let go of your addiction. The religious system creates the delusion that makes them feel better. They deny reality, gain a sense of belonging, feel power, righteousness, and avoid responsibility.

* Surrender to God.

* Mental recovery. Confront toxic thoughts and replace them with thoughts that are based on reality.

TOXIC THOUGHTS:

- Thinking in extremes. This fuels the crusades against the corrupt. One mistake makes them feel like a complete failure. They must change from a product orientation to a process orientation. They must have mercy on themselves and replace perfectionism with an acceptance of their humanity.

- Drawing invalid conclusions. They turn anything into a negative, doomsday scenario. They make all-inclusive statements (always, never). They must identify unreasonable and irrational conclusions.

- Faulty filtering. They focus on only one part of reality, discard the good and distort the whole. They are hypercritical, focusing on the negative.

- Invalidating the positive. They disqualify facts and distort them with "yes, but..." Every positive comment is contorted into negative. They can't take compliments, and live in false humility. ("It was God, not me." The must learn to identify these self-defeating statements and actions.

- Discarding the negative. They only see positive actions of the persecutor, and allow immorality. They must learn to face up to wrongs.

- Thinking with the heart. Their feelings form the basis of reality. They interpret the world through their emotions. They live in a self-obsessed existence. They must identify emotional thoughts and base them on facts and evidence.

- "Shoulds." They live in self-induced pressure. They never measure up to their own expectations. They're never good enough. They're driven to meet their unrealistic demands to avoid disappointment.

- Hyper responsibility. They feel shame for other's actions, which fuels their low self-worth. They have a desire to be in control, but also to lose touch with their own problems. They need to take the focus off everyone else and turn it back to self.

* Take in new information. Books, resources, Bible, new value system. Change from a naive believer to a questioning seeker. Stop looking for quick fixes and easy solutions. Learn to think for themselves and evaluate information.

* Support group. They need people to provide accountability. This supplements recovery, but shouldn't replace church.

Effective treatment involves restoring relationships with the family, otherwise they will recreate their own addiction and dependency problems. It make take a long time for family members to heal from anger and resolve their negative emotions. They will re-form bonds for support.

Dietary habits must be fixed. The body is the temple of God. They must take care of it. Rest, exercise, nutrition must be priorities. These will stabilize moods, bring relaxation, and reduce stress.

Integrate faith with all other areas of our life - family, work, etc.

Embrace our emotions, don't hide them.

Embrace our humanity. Don't live in an illusion of perfection. Don't obey just because of a fear of God, but out of a response to his goodness.

Be able to love and be loved.

[newface (newface)]

Thankyou for that

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
lmbles,
I want to welcome you to the factnet community and thank you for that insightful article you posted.
I hope that it encourages more people to post and participate in the ongoing discussion of the Truth about the systematic problems we are trying to reveal.

God bless and keep you.

Dave

</font>}

[lmbles (lmbles)]

Thank you Dave. I've appreciated your writings these past months, too. I have been in GGWO for 10 years, and always had reservations about the high pastoral authority (control). I didn't trust myself.. and as I started to question more and get some heat, I simply thought the problems were isolated to our small church. Soon I realized that it was a trickle-down effect of Baltimore. While I appreciated so much categorical doctrine, activity and fellowship, and I hated to give it all up, I began to see things more and more clearly. The problems are ingrained in the Greater Grace mentality. It's so much easier to recognize after having been out for a while. I am apalled when I speak to some of my friends who are still involved. It's sad. I want them to be delivered from destructive thinking, too.

Thank you for all your healthy dialogues. It's good for me to know I'm not the only one out there.

I hope these notes that I took on this book prove helpful to others. It's a good one that we ALL should read.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

lmbes,

Toxic Faith was the first book I read at the beginning of my exodus from GG. It is a wonderful book and thank you for posting excerpts here. Welcome to the FN community! Jeannie

[lmao (lmao)]

lmbles

If you don't mind sharing, what were the issues over which you were asked to leave? I have not yet read Toxic Faith, but I intend to soon.

[the_one_post_wunderkind (the_one_post_wunderkind)]

So many of us have left the Valley of Deception known as TBS/GG. And, we are ascending up the Steppes of Truth. We are using muscles we never knew we had. This is a challenge that at times is exhausting; yet, rewarding. So many of us have not yet reached the summit or even glanced over to other side; but, by the grace of God we are moving slowly and cautiously forward, knowing it is there - but, not wanting to be fooled again! And, we have peace with our place.

And, for the first time in many, many years we are inhaling fresh air from heaven and exhaling with a renewed vigor as we shout "I am free." And, renewed, we look down at the Valley of Deception, from where He snatched us ...wondering what the attraction really was.

Then, we are hit with an overwhelming reality...we see and smell for the first time the toxic waste that has completely enveloped The Valley of Deception. We are nauseated and dizzy. We once so willingly inhaled the toxic waste - 24x7 thinking it was clean and fresh air. We see those we love disappear in the subtle mist. We collapse on the hillside paralyzed by convulsions of powerlessness, fear and utter betrayal.

We now see the toxic waste of The Valley of Deception for what it really is...poison to the soul irreverently packaged in an appealing Bible wrapper. The Sacred Scriptures twisted and manipulated; Christ hidden behind the sinful and self absorbed shroud of a man and his movement - and we inhaled it thinking it was real life.

We ask, why God, why? Where were You? Why did this happen? Why do I feel so used and alone? Then, He answers me in a way that I do not expect.

To teach you discernment.

To teach you to be stingy with your trust towards others.

To teach you to lean on ME and not a man or his groupies.

To show you the dangers of living in a religious system that is based on the approval of others by your loyalty and outward performance.

And, when you are ready, to help others exit The Valley of Deception by holding forth a hand to assist them to begin the ascent up the Steppes of Truth.

Now, we have joy as we see our friends and loved ones on the Steppes of Truth, inhaling fresh air from heaven and exhaling with a renewed vigor as THEY shout "I am free."

For all who are learning to love the climb, I shout, "See you on the high ground!"

Grace and Strength,
tpw

(Message edited by the one post wunderkind on November 15, 2005)

[lmbles (lmbles)]

We originally went to talk to the pastor about ways that we could function more orderly. For example, we tend to follow a socialistic, expert mentality where only pastors can speak about anything important and offer their portion to the body... that includes young novices fresh from baltimore with their rubber stamp. We instead wanted the leaders to do their job which is serve and equip the body. We wanted the pastors to train parents to be better parents, but instead they'd boast about their EXCELLENT YOUTH PROGRAM which appeals to the children's flesh (through pragmatic entertainment that looks just like the world) instead of reaching hearts with truth in the context of a relationship. We wanted to see more emphasis on discipleship rather than always promoting soulwinning and church growth. We wanted to see people serious about the Word of God and personal maturity and growth, rather than just filled with busyness and foolishness. We wanted to hear more of the holiness of God and what freedom there is when we follow in his ways, rather than some mystical idea of righteousness. We heard so about our position and the finished work of Christ and the grace which covers everything, and we never heard anything about walking in His ways, faith obedience, God's design and order (especially within the family). So we sensed an off-balance.

So we brought some of our thoughts to the pastor, in love, and even had pages of biblical appeal and spoke about specific ways our church was stunting growth among the body rather than promoting it. In the whole process of discussing things with the pastor (in love and maturity) we saw how the elders came to his defense to say, "This is the way we've always done it since Carl Stevens started the ministry. If you don't like it, go somewhere else." They weren't even willing to look at scripture and be sharpened like men. "You aren't being loyal!" was the cry of the congregation. "It's an attack! You're dissenters! Sowers of discord!"

We also spoke with our pastor about what was going on in Baltimore at the time, and how the church government was running (once we started to awaken to the control within the ministry.) We spoke about the need for open repentence (with P. Paul), for honesty with our congregation about what's happening instead of just sweeping it under the rug as usual, and we spoke about accountability for leaders. We made the mistake of saying "cult-like tendencies." As soon as we did that, even the pastor turned on us and stopped trying to hear our concerns (or humor us). They asked us not to come back. We asked for a fair trial. What's the accusation? We want the church to know. He said that it wasn't behavioral, and he didn't really see a problem with our doctrine, but that's not the direction they're going, and just our very presence there is confusing to the people. We said, "Then teach them to think for themselves and answer us with scripture. You haven't yet." He said it would just be too difficult and shake their faith. They'd rather baby new christians than challenge them.

So we met with the pastor privately for 8 months while we discussed these things. Meanwhile we were asked to remain from fellowship. We were all "core" members, very involved in various ministries (one of us was even an ordained pastor himself who just got back from the missionfield.) So needless to say, people were wondering where we were and what was going on. Of course, no one answered honestly. So we wrote a respectful letter to read to the congregation and explain our absense and say goodbye. The elders didn't want to deal with it properly as a congregation, so absolutely nothing was said to the church. It was really ridiculous. So unbiblical. We were silenced and quietly ushered away.

I started in that church as a young teen (parents unsaved) and soon became a leader among my peers, then began teaching women's bible studies and playing on the music ministry and running the soundboard and was VERY involved in every gathering, very committed and faithful. But in the 10 years I was there, I began to lose respect for the integrity of leaders who couldn't (or wouldn't) answer my questions, and only had eyes for the ministry. They even showed FEAR that I might learn something different as I read books from the other camp (about family or homeschooling, books that might have a calvinistic or covenant bent.) Instead of teaching me to discern or giving me the facts, one pastor said, "Only read the Bible and Doctrine Weekly, so you won't get confused..."

So sick.

You better not get me started... I'm still not over how we were treated and how wrong they are. I still am SO BITTER for all the people there who were ripped out of my life and told that WE were wrong for leaving. Some of the things they've said are downright SCARY!

These people need help.

(Message edited by lmbles on November 17, 2005)

[lmao (lmao)]

lmbles,
I am impressed with your discernment. It was about a year ago this month that Sandy Cove (SC) was first proposed to Pastor which was about the time you left GG, yet your issues were very similar to those of SC. As you know, in the end, those committed to the SC reforms faced the same roadblocks as you and had to leave.

While I believe it is clear from the context of your story, I am going to ask anyway. Did the church you left remain affiliated with GG?

[lee (lee)]

Beautiful story OPW , and poignant.
Imbles, I think you've come to the right place. Tell your stories and express your disappointments. I think we have the shoulders to bear them. Welcome!

[isabella (isabella)]

Imbles,

What branch?

[lmbles (lmbles)]

Yes, actually my pastor is still affiliated, but I think he is also a part of IAGM.. dual membership, if I'm correct. Best fitting position for his politically correct middle-of-the-road personality. He doesn't want to offend, but won't compromise too much.

He was involved in Sandy Cove when this was all going on. I was reading factnet a lot at the time, too.. and knew quite a bit about the whole thing. He wasn't too happy that I had insider's information (even though I didn't share it with anyone) and he said that I just need to "trust God" which is just another one of their excuses for being ignorant and irresponsible.

I actually have to give him some credit. He was trying to challenge people and hold them accountable in Baltimore SOMEWHAT, and is now integral in the "re-building" process... but more out of desperation than conviction.

[lmbles (lmbles)]

isabella...

I hope you don't mind, but I think it would be best if I don't disclose that one for now.

Sorry..

LMBLES

[cordell (cordell)]

In toxic organizations masquerading as churches the result is that the real Christ and the real purpose of human existence is always obscured--the real Christ is a Redeemer whom our eyes will behold when He stands on the earth, our purpose is to reflect the glory of God and to ENJOY God. What a concept--human beings were created to enjoy and be enjoyed by God.

[hey_you (hey_you)]

lmbles,

You've got mail

[jeannie (jeannie)]

lmbles,

As of right now there are no dual memberships going on in the IAGM, I believe your pastor is squarely with GG.

Excellent post by the way! Your story and obvious desire for a healthy church was humbling to read. You and your husband handled the situation completely with God's nature and biblically. How appalling to be met with such a contrary spirit. I am sure any community you are now a part of has benefited greatly by your presence. God Bless you in your faith journey! The bitterness will pass, so will the grief and pain. You will look back and see the wonderful hand of the Lord gently guiding you through your exit. It's all good.. and it gets better!

[lmbles (lmbles)]

Thank you Jeannie.

Actually, I'm not married. It was just me, along with two other wonderful families. For a long time now, these two families have been a covering for me.

BLASPHEMY!! THEY AREN'T EVEN PASTORS! hehe

After we left GG, we had a home church for about 8 months, which was EXCELLENT. We also planned on moving out west where we bought land to start a farm and several other home businesses, including writing and a ministry to homeschooling families. We met a WONDERFUL group of believers out there that we'd fellowship with... One family already moved out there and they are enjoying themselves, and I'm living with the other family right now. We've got some things to take care of before we're ready to go. So here we're involved in a small baptist church in the area, but we're a bit gun-shy right now, so we're hesitant to get too involved.

Thanks for your encouragement.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

lmbles, You spoke so eloquently about being a godly wife I thought you were one already! BJ Erwin and I are wicked matchmakers, should we start looking?

[lmbles (lmbles)]

Ha ha ha...

Maybe the reason I spoke so elegantly about being a godly wife is because I haven't actually had to practice it yet!! haha It's just head knowledge.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
OMG.
You folks crack me up.
Thanks,I needed that,LOL.

Imbles,
some guys gonna be blessed by marrying you for certain.
Some Godly man that is.

Jeannie,I bet you already started looking for her,LOLhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif.

JK.

Dave

</font>}

[lmbles (lmbles)]

Hahaha, thanks Dave. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

Hoping to hear back from Jeannie soon.
Time it is a-ticking...

J/K

LMBLES

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Imbles or Lmbles - thanks for injecting the GGWO cult discussion board with your posts.

Your story reminds us that GGWO is full of beautiful Christian folks who have been led atray by wolves in sheep's clothing. Thank God you and your friends are free.

I am one who believes TBS/GGWO turned out exactly as it was designed by its leader Carl Stevens. He was a phony from the beginning. This cult was designed to worship Carl under the guise of worshipping Jesus and His Word. Isabella mentioned once in a post that Carl would preach a message about Jesus but by the time he was done he had injected himself to be Jesus in the message. It was subtle yet simple.

The standing 'O's at GGWO are for man not the Lord. The current leaders have been thoroughly enmeshed in the ways of Carl. RHP who seemed to me a leader in the GGWO cult gave the board a powerful example of these deceitful men.

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
There you go agian Louise,being truthful as usual.LOL.
I jusy had to pull your leg a bit.
What you say is sad but true.
A lot of self projection went on.
I'm just greatful that the Lord met people who where seeking Him inspite of it all.People like you and others who where set free.
Thank the Lord for mercy towards those who seek Him in Truth and in Spirit.

I hope the Lord does something special for you today,

Dave

</font>

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

As I read what was posted about toxic faith it was as if i were looking in the mirror right down to the thoughts of suicide.

I still struggle accepting God love's me just as I am because I seem to be getting sicker. I have doctrines swimming in my head and fear my own discernment as I study the Word.

I have no local church bec I am homebound. I have contacted several including CCs to no avail. They simply don't visit homebound people due to schedules.

They say they do but no one has ever made a second appearance even after telling me how much they loved our fellowship and couldn't wait to come back again.

It has left me feeling very vulnerable and insecure because the fullness of Christ is in the Body or where 2 or 3 are gathered together.

I struggle daily with my faith. I feel that God is displeased with me and there is no way back. Sometimes I feel so abandoned and lost. Other times I sense His presence.

I am still in the good girl syndrone it seems. If I behave God will love me and if I don't all I hear in my head is God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and Jacob He loved but esau he hated.

I am stuck in some sort of limbo and desperately need to know He accepts me as I am. I feel like a little girl, lost and confused.

I always believed I was Spirit filled and worshipped God with all my heart, now I feel shelved, lost in a desert and sometimes the despair is very overwhelming.

I find myself daily begging God to take me home. I am suffering so terribly physically and I know that I must accept what is in my hand but I keep wondering is it something I did, something I am not doing.

Yet even in this valley of despair there is a joy within my heart, as a smoking flax, that is all I can seem to compare it to.

I am bedbound most of the time now. I have my family and a man who loves me but although they confess Jesus, we rarely speak of him and there is no prayer. It deeply saddens me.

And I have lost every friend I had in GG for 20 years, people who put up the pretense of being very close friends, but as my illness got worse and I was unable to serve or contribute time or money people slowly started disappearing until there was no one left.

Am I a smoking flax? a bruised reed? and what does this really mean?

Nancy Curra

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
You are one who is Loved by the Lord in season and out of season.
You are Loved by Him when you go out and when you come in.
You are Loved by Him because of who He is and nothing you do ever changes that.
The good things,the bad things are just that.Things that have no ability to seperate you from His Love of you.
Experience is just a road we travel but in Him we have the fullness of God and all that He is.
Though we do not always "feel" that way.

We will not know the why's of this journey until we reach our home with Him and all the pain and uncertainty falls away to the ground.
You have not been cast aside because he has promised that He would be with you even to the end of the world.He is with you in everything you experience in your life.A life that is of such value that He took it all upon Himself to purchase it for you.
He is always closer to us than we think He is.

Sometimes He's closer to us when we sense Him the least.I do not know why it is that way but I have seen it to be true.
If you are weak,then He is the strength you need from inside you.He cannot deny Himself.

It's ok to feel like you do,we're still human.
He has promised us His presence with us whether we feel Him there or not.He is with you.


Dave

</font>}

[lmbles (lmbles)]

Nancy,

Forgive me if this sounds trite.. but I truly think you are in a better place than most Christians.

You said you're struggling with His acceptance. I'm sure I'm telling you something you already know, but it is not our performance God wants; it is our heart. If you are honest with God, you will respond to His love by depending on Him more and leaning on His strength and mercy, not by trying to DO or BE anything.

I believe that He wants us to rely WHOLLY on Him, so there are times when God painfully removes the things in our lives that prop us up - like relationships or our "gifts" and "ministries" that might serve our own egos. Remember that verse in Hebrews 12 that says God will shake the earth and only those things that are of Him will remain?

I understand it's been a difficult journey for you, and you're very lonely, but I think you're at an advantage, Nancy, because right now nothing can substitute that relationship with God in your life, and you can only go to Him. He is your source. No church, no person, no personal skill you have acquired. Anything or anyone else is only a blessing and a privilege... an opportunity to know Him more or show Him more. But those things don't sustain you. You're forced to be alone with the Maker of heaven and earth, and draw on Him for life.

I'm in a tough place right now, too. VERY isolated, lacking fellowship, lost just about everything in my life. Some days I feel completely alone... hurt and betrayed and angry. But I'm realizing (slowly and painfully) how God is teaching me in this season that He is the only one who is faithful, and my strength ought to come from Him, not weak, frail people or systems of man. God is removing things that I've trusted in. Idols. Vain hope. Self-effort. And that leaves me better off than before.

Even in this dark valley, He will make Himself known to us, and all things are STILL for our sake. (Ps 27 I'd have fainted if it weren't for the goodness of God in the land of the living.)

God bless you and keep you,
I'm praying for you Nancy

(Message edited by lmbles on November 24, 2005)

[lmbles (lmbles)]

Nancy, I just read a book that you might really enjoy. It made me think of your latest post here. It's called "The Valley is Bright," by Nell Collins.

Here's a bit about her.

http://www.notearsinheaven.com/NTIH/Peace_be_Still/Dr%20Nell%20Collins/

If you're interested in the book, and can't get your hands on it, let me know and I can send you a copy if you'd like.

God Bless,
LMBLES

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

lmb thank you so very much. i would very much like to read this book. can you email me at inmercyrejoice@yahoo.com thank you

Blessings,

Nancy