Paul the Apostle [Archive]

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

12-09-2005, 07:45 AM

"Galatians 1:15 But when He, Who had chosen and set me apart [even] before I was born and had called me by His grace (His undeserved favor and blessing), saw fit and was pleased
16 reveal (unveil, disclose) His Son within me so that I might proclaim Him among the Gentiles (the non-Jewish world) as the glad tidings (Gospel), immediately I did not confer with flesh and blood [did not consult or counsel with any frail human being or communicate with anyone].
17 Nor did I [even] go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles (special messengers of Christ) before I was, but I went away and retired into Arabia, and afterward I came back again to Damascus.
18 Then three years later, I did go up to Jerusalem to become [personally] acquainted with Cephas (Peter), and remained with him for fifteen days.
19 But I did not see any of the other apostles (the special messengers of Christ) except James the brother of our Lord.
20 Now [note carefully what I am telling you, for it is the truth], I write this as if I were standing before the bar of God; I do not lie."

What caught me about this passage is that Paul didn't even consult with any man not even the original apostles. This spoke so clearly to me that Paul was and is the only man who had this type of experience with the Lord. It happened only once and it was to/with Paul, not another apostle experienced this.

What that speaks to me is that there also after the finishing of the Scriptures will not, could not be another man who could make a claim like this, because Paul didn't consult with the original apostles and was taught personally by Christ Himself.

So how can any man claim to have a similar experience? Many do, CHS is one of them. The Bible does say that God will give young men visions and old men something (i forgot) but it never references that what happened to Paul would or could ever happened again. No new revelations. Nothing new under the sun. What is written is written, what the visions are I believe directly relate to our personal walks with God and special callings to particular mission fields or professions, etc.

Many in GG are so completely caught up in the GG "vision" that they think it foolishness to become a doctor, nurse, businessman or get a real college degree. It isn't completely discouraged but it is frowned upon if a person would put secular (which might be their Holy calling) second to Bible college and missions.

Missionaries are needed in every place, office, country, city, school, etc. Emphasis is unbalanced in GG and perhaps other mainstream "churches"

First of all the mainstream "church" is not even Biblical. Secondly, most Christianity in big churches ends at the church door. Not because these are not Godly Christians but because they are truly not taught how to live a practical Christian life.

One example is a girl I know loves photography but thinks it frivilous to pursue because it interferes with her many activities in GG. But God uses beautiful photography to show the splendor of His creation as well as the vast amount of suffering in the world to open others eyes. So my question is if God gives this girl a love for photography, yet bec she is so busy with activities in Gg, how can she possibly understand that this may be where God would like to use her?

There are many stories like this. I remember how much I love to write. I have been writing since a young girl and truly have a gift. I was working, am now again, on a book. But I put it on hold because a "friend" at GG told me that was wasting precious time and we were to redeem the time. Well now my writings go around the world at my web sites and have saved and touched many hearts because I broke free of that tidy little busy box of GG.

I am just concerned that many are burying their God given talents in lieu of GG activities convincing themselves that they are the ones really involved in the work of God.

One more example is Chik filet (spell check) Now here is a beautiful Christian man who owns this business and gives most of all his money to God's work. What if he said "o a restaurant is frivilous, I must go to Bible college or I miss the real call of God". What think ye?

I would very much like to explore these thoughts with others. I am very much shying away from churches and more interested in the one on one fellowship and showing the love of God towards others as God has taught me.

There are many loves mentioned in the Bible but in GG it is taught that unless agape love is flowing through you, you are operating in human love. I find that thought intriguing since all Love is of God to begin with.

Please input would be most helpful. Thank you all.

lovingly

Nancy Curra

(Message edited by mercyreigns on December 09, 2005)

dinaweena (dinaweena)

12-09-2005, 02:31 PM

Personally, I believe that ALL who have Christ will have personal revelation, like Paul. The kicker is that if it really IS the Holy Spirit, confirmation from other believers, uncontested confirmation, would show that it was the Truth ( our spirits bear witness). Paul received that final gospel-the gospel of Grace, and he knew Christ like no one else did...he never 'walked' with Him like the other apostles did but he had a firmer grasp on being crucified, buried, resurrected, and living Christ's life....not by his power but by the power of the Son living His life in Paul. He had no other way to account for his converstion other than the personal revelation he received from God. I don't believe we are any different in that respect. Being human, it's easy to get caught up in someone's personality and be so busy hearing from the outside, that we ignore the very Life within...it's sad.

david_munson (david_munson)

12-09-2005, 04:28 PM

Nancy,
just to add to your post.
Paul was a tent maker by profession even while he was preaching.
If we don't do something in this world,how can we reach others?
The GG perspective on this matter is very personally inhibiting and tends to quench the Spirit's leading.
The more time we spend meeting the lost,the better chance we have of reaching them.
Why GG doesn't see how simple that is,I don't know.
Could it be a "holier than thou" mentality?
Maybe a "normal things are not spiritual" mentality.
Maybe it's jusy crap,BS,doo doo,
ka ka,manipulation and private interpretaion of the scriptures.
Yah?

Dave

}

isabella (isabella)

12-10-2005, 03:59 AM

Hi Nancy,

I think I understand what you're saying in the above post about folks giving up their inclinations and artistic endeavors at the bequest of the LTM. But, remember, these people we once referred to as pastors, have their own desires to fullfill.

Some just want to please pastor..ie 'wigboy' and others just want his little tiny power.

You go girl, and write to your heart's content. I don't see the harm.

The LTM want all the gory (spell check?) for their own....hope they will read Daniel's post and get a clue.

Love to you, Nancy Curra,

Isabella

jayso (jayso)

12-10-2005, 11:47 AM

There is so much to be said for this topic. Nancy has it right about mission work. If our own Christian Churches would adopt some of the missionary zeal of the LDS (mormons), we would be more effective witnesses for Christ.

I personally know Mormons who go to foreign missions in third world countries and work with the people in EVERY aspect of their lives. They are doctors, nurses, certified teachers, construction workers, dentists, etc. They are also preachers and recruit for their cause.

GGWO's emphasis on missions is the "one minute blitz evangelism". Get the people to say the sinner's prayer and get them to go to a GG church and MBC&S. More numbers, more "souls" and then get the new recruits to recruit many others. It's more salesmanship than mission work.

GGWO is not the only church that does that type of mission work. Unfortunately there are too many like that in our country. They have cheapened the Gospel to a numbers game which will yield higher attendance and higher tithes and more lavish lifestyles for the "pastors" at the top. Sad indeed... but reality nonetheless.

nonotone (nonotone)

12-10-2005, 12:38 PM

jayso,

What you write above is SO TRUE! We are called to be "salt and light" in EVERY arena of life. It's much more about "being" than "doing". Unfortunately, in TBS/GGWO many folks "wake up" after 5, 10, 20, 30 years of involvement, only to realize that the opportunites for education, professional development, and family life necessary to "be the most effective witness" (in the situations that you descibe) have already passed them by.

I've said it before, I don't believe the vast majority of GGWO folks, including pastors could give a credible defense of the Christian faith to your average post-modern or intellectual. This is sad commentary on the "highest form of education" that Stevens allegedly taught.

sidethorn (sidethorn)

12-12-2005, 02:26 PM

Right on Jayso!!!

I've seen so much of this numbers game evangelism and church recruitment it makes me sick!!! Many churches and ministries I've encountered do this stuff and GGWO is the worst example of this crap I've ever seen. Rake them in, put guilt trips on them to tithe and give more money to the church and then send them out to rake in others on some little blitzes. My question is where is the true discipleship and building up of people here??? People are not supposed to be viewed as points on someone's scoreboard or more dollar bills in the offering plate. In God's eyes, people are so much more valuable than that!!! God sent His own Son to pay an infinite price for each person!! God cares about every area of their lives and wants to help them. Churches that name the Name of Christ should be doing the same instead of cheapening people like GGWO does.

In the Word, weren't we commanded to go out and make disciples of men?? That's a lot more than some cheap raking in of people. It means sharing the Gospel in love and educating the people in all the major truths of the Christian faith. This includes sharing with them the major false doctrines out there to protect them from being decieved and hurt by them. The training here must also equip the people to defend the Christian faith on their own.

True discipleship also means tending to the needs of the people. This means spending time fellowshipping with ALL the people (not just the "cool" ones) to get to know them, and their concerns and needs. There are people that need financial help. Others need physical and emotional healings. Others need deliverance from demons too. A 100 percent effective soldier for Christ is a healthy one without a lot of needs bogging them down. Ministering to people's needs is crucial to building them up to be those effective soldiers for Christ. That's part of what true discipleship is all about!!!

Its time many churches and espeically GGWO learns what true discipleship really is and start practicing it. Right, GGWO needs to stop being a cult that uses people first!! Building up God's Kingdom is a lot more than just getting people "in". It also means training the people in the truth, investing in their lives and ministering to their needs. If many churches would start cleaning up their acts, get rid of the hypocrisy and start practicing true discipleship of the people, then true revival would come!!!

SIDETHORN

leegriffith (leegriffith)

12-13-2005, 01:34 AM

Hi Nancy –

I came across FactNet last spring, met some old friends, and entered a few discussions. I haven’t done many posts on FactNet, though I look at FactNet every so often. Once in awhile something really sparks my interest--like your post about your discovery regarding the Apostle Paul. It was actually discoveries about Jesus Christ related to the unique apostleship and ministry of Paul that led to my disaffiliation from GGWO in 1991. And it was because I was so enthralled with these wonderful truths that, by God’s grace, I was able to easily move on and not look back. I’d like to share with you, and anyone else who may be interested, a brief summary of my personal statement of faith (that is, beyond the basic cardinal doctrines).

I know that covenant theologians, and even many dispensationalists, may be all over me, but what the hey! I invite doctrinal criticism from anyone. I do hope that what I am sharing may cause some to consider the passages cited and reflect—perhaps seeing some things in a way they have not considered before. I realize that some will assert that this not really the place for such specifics in doctrine. I would only reply that no one is compelled to read through this. So, here goes:

I believe that the ministry of John the Baptizer and of Jesus and the twelve apostles was focused on the announcement of the coming Kingdom of Messiah. For example in Matthew 3:2 and in Matthew 4:17, John and then Jesus called on Israel to repent (have a change of mind) because “the kingdom of heaven (literally ‘from the heavens’) is at hand” (near). Daniel’s seventieth week and the subsequent establishment of Messiah’s kingdom on earth were actually the next steps on the prophetic agenda. The Sermon on the Mount was an instruction for preparation for this kingdom and the manifesto for the kingdom.

I believe that the twelve apostles (complete with Matthais who was the legitimate and divinely ordained replacement for Judas in Acts 1) were going forward with the kingdom agenda during the early Acts period. It had been promised that they would sit on twelve thrones over Israel in Messiah’s kingdom (Matthew 19:28). What many refer to as “the great commission” (and it WAS a great commission - Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-18; Like 24:47-48; Acts 1:8) was a continuation of the proclamation of the Gospel of the Kingdom after the crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Christ. After all, Messiah’s kingdom could only be officially offered to Israel AFTER the Cross (Luke 24:26; 1 Peter 1:11). Indeed the formal offer of Messiah’s kingdom was clearly presented through Peter in Acts 3:19-21. Had Israel, as a nation, repented and accepted the offer, the seventieth week of Daniel would have occurred, followed by the Second Advent of Christ and the establishment of His Kingdom. The response of Israel to the offer, however, crystallized with the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7. It was then that God began to set Israel aside (Romans 11:25) – TEMPORARILY. God will fulfill all of the covenant promises to Israel after the rapture of the Church of the present dispensation.

Upon Israel’s rejection of Messiah’s kingdom, God, in His grace, saved one of the participants involved in the stoning of Stephen—Saul of Tarsus. It was to this man that the ascended Christ disclosed a great “mystery” (Gr. musterion – something which had been secret until it was made known). Paul writes about this in Ephesians 3:1-9 as well as a number of other places. This was a secret which had been hidden in God—an entire program which was a complete departure from the program which had been revealed though the prophets. The prophetic plan had called for the Gentiles to be blessed (through the covenants given to Israel) through Israel’s AGENCY. This newly revealed (that is, newly revealed to the apostle Paul) program involves the blessing of the Gentiles through Israel’s FALL and her temporary rejection by God. After the rapture, the prophetic plan will resume once again, and the covenant program will again move forward, and all of the covenants to Israel (except the Mosaic Covenant which has been discontinued) will be fulfilled. The other apostles became aware of this mystery after it was set forth by the apostle Paul. The apostleship of Paul was unique and was distinct from that of the twelve. It was through what Christ had revealed to the Apostle Paul that the other apostles became enlightened as to the new economy in the plan of God.

I believe that believers today are not under the so-called “great commission” but we have a commission which is no less great which has been entrusted to us; a ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18). Central to this ministry is the “word of reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:19) a.k.a. “the gospel of the grace of God” (Acts 20:24) a.k.a. “the word of the cross” (1 Corinthians 1:18). We are ambassadors for Christ (2 Corinthians 5:20) with a message to the lost which is not tied to the announcement of Messiah’s kingdom. The kingdom gospel will resume during the tribulation period (Matthew 24:14).

I believe that the Pentecostal baptism of the Holy Spirit was the prophesied baptism whereby it was promised that Christ would do the baptizing (Matthew 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33; Acts 1:8). This was a unique manifestation of the Holy Spirit by which Israel had the opportunity to experience a foretaste of the blessings which the New Covenant to Israel would bring; a preview of “the powers of the age to come” (Hebrews 6:5). That baptism of the Holy Spirit began to be withdrawn in the later Acts period after Israel had rejected the kingdom offer. The Pentecostal baptism of the Holy Spirit whereby CHRIST baptized must be distinguished from the baptism of the Holy Spirit whereby the HOLY SPIRIT baptizes every believer into Christ’s Body at the instant of salvation. The former was experiential in nature. The latter is positional in nature. This is why Pentecost is NOT the pattern for the Church of the present dispensation.

I believe that the ritual of water baptism was a ritual associated with the kingdom program for Israel. It was a ritual which illustrated the washing away of Israel’s sins as the people of the nation prepared their hearts to receive Messiah as King. There is no Biblical basis for the assumption that water baptism is a picture of our death, burial and resurrection with Christ, or a picture of our positional baptism. When the Apostle Paul was water baptized it was in connection with the washing away of sins (Acts 22:16). Water baptism was clearly a part of the commission of the twelve (Matthew 28:19; Acts 2:38). The Apostle Paul was water baptized, because he was saved when the kingdom agenda was ongoing. After Paul was saved, he received progressive installments of revelation directly from the ascended Christ Jesus (Acts 26:16 “…for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things IN WHICH I WILL APPEAR TO YOU”). (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:7.) After Paul received quite a bit of revelation about the great mystery, he became aware that his commission did not include water baptism (1 Corinthians 1:17). People try to get around the clear implication of 1 Corinthians 1:17 by saying that Paul wanted to emphasize his preaching of the gospel over and above his water baptism because the Corinthian believers were developing personality cults around those who had baptized them. But think about it. Could any of the twelve during the Pentecostal era have said that they did not come to baptize? (cf. Matthew 28:19.) Water baptism is not a part of the program for God’s people during the present dispensation. Maybe that is why there is such confusion about it in the Body of Christ. There is no majority of opinion as to how it is to be done (immersion, effusion or sprinkling) to whom it is to be done (infants or professing believers) and what it means when it is done. Some denominations actually teach baptismal regeneration--ugghh! Some teach that it replaces the ritual of circumcision. Some teach that it is a picture of the believer’s death, burial and resurrection with Christ.

Last but not least, I believe that salvation, in EVERY dispensation in human history, is by grace alone; through faith alone; in Christ alone (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:5).

And, I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows… but that’s another subject for another time.

Best wishes to you, Nancy, and to all.

Lee Griffith

(Message edited by leegriffith on December 12, 2005)

(Message edited by leegriffith on December 12, 2005)

(Message edited by leegriffith on December 13, 2005)