Geographical Will of God

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

I had an old acquaintance call Mike and I last night and say how happy he is because he is in God's Geographical Will of God.

Now I understand why GGWO (and it seems noone else) preaches this (damage control); however, can one of you bible scholars give me some teaching on what parts of the Bible GGWO uses to get this doctrine, and what the Bible truly says about it?

I truly appreciate it. Love you all so much!!!

[alex (alex)]

Never heard any biblical justification for this "doctrine"; rather, was told if one left God's "geographical will" one would not be "covered" from the wiles of the devil or protected. Hope this helps...FEAR, FEAR, FEAR tactics, nothing more.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

alex is *exactly* right. GGWO cannot offer a sound arugment from Scripture on this, but here is an appoximation of what they'll say.

"Every believer needs to be in the right local assembly under the right Pastor/Teacher in order to grow properly in Christ". Therefore there is the "Geographical will of God" for a believer - that is where ever your Pastor/Teacher is ... unless of course you BECOME a Pastor/Teacher and are called to plant an affilate work elsewhere. Of course this should be *blessed* by the Pastor/Teacher who is "sending you" AND he is STILL your Pastor/Teacher.

Then Carl will quote Ecclessiastes 12:11 from the KJV:

Ecclesiastes 12:11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.

....( to others who considered Carl H. Stevens their Pastor/Teacher for years) does this sound about right?

Now, does any one else think "one shepherd" refers to the mere man who is your Pastor/Teacher?

In the ESV the verse reads:

Ecclesiastes 12:11 The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd.

... hum the ESV translators saw fit to capitalize 'Shepherd'. Anyone else believe this verse refers to Christ and NOT to some guy in a wig?


Brian Bowman
John 3:21, 1 Cor 1:30

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

CHS uses examples such as Jonah and Paul for being out of God's geographical will as part of the basis of his "doctrine".

But he is convinced (and I have heard him on numerous occasions elude to this)that Baltimore is the geographical will of God for most Christians.

It is a shame that the archives for Missions night 2004 is not available. I was in a nursing home at that time and had numerous friends I had met online. I had invited 2 of them to watch missions night with me.

I was on mike with one and chat with another. At the end of the missions night service Chs came on tape eluding that any Christian that was not in Baltimore was off as far as God's geographical will was concerned.

My 2 friends were stunned and asked me why would a pastor say such a thing? They could not move from where they were and felt they were where God placed them considering they were born there.

I was caught off guard because it was at that time I was very confused about GG and had already taken a stand against certain things a year earlier. But I still tried to hang on to GG.

Anyway I said to them "o it is that he is old and has a little dementia". I was at a loss of what else to say to them. They both were feeling condemned and I was ashamed I had subjected them to that.

anyway that is how 2 other Christians view the geographical will of God.

Nancy Curra

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Very interesting. My pastor (Calvary Chapel preaching takes a book of the Bible - we are in Hebrews now) spoke on Hebrews 13 today.

The whole message was incredible; however this is the chapter that in two places talks about being subject to those who lead you. But smack dab in the middle it says stay away from false doctrine. Danny said that if someone has "new revelations that no one else has had" they are off. This is the whole history of CHS. In his insecurity and refusal to teach from the whole Word of God, he taught new doctrines that no one else taught. He called them revelations. The sad thing is that the Word of God is so very exciting, every verse, every chapter, every book, I could never understand why that was never good enough for him?

Answered alot of questions in my life today. Thanks to all of you who helped with what you wrote above. It's too bad that GGWO has to preach this "revelation" to keep people in the pews, rather than to just trust God to be exciting enough. Love you all!!!

[johncollins (johncollins)]

Hi BJ!

As you quoted Danny, "if someone has "new revelations that no one else has had"" they are off. This teaching appears to be an invention of R. B. Thieme.

Google "geographical will of God" and you'll get about 277 hits returned (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22geographical+will+of+God%22&hl=en&lr=& client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&start=0&sa=N). Many of these are on websites of churches which are obviously based on Thieme's teaching. Example: many don't have church services, they have "classes." Many offer tapes at no charge (nothing wrong with that!), with a statement similar to "Anyone who desires Bible teachings may obtain them without charge or obligation. God provides Bible doctrine; we wish to reflect His grace."

Interestingly, one of the first sites with a reference to "geographical will of God" is the Grace Bible Church (http://www.gbible.org/) of Somerset, MA, AKA Robert R. McLaughlin Bible Ministries. I remember Bob McLaughlin from tbs days in Johnston, RI, and how CHS and others disparaged him when he broke away because he was a "thiemeite."

Add the word "thieme" to your Google search, and you'll still get 30 hits (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22geographical+will+of+God%22+thi eme&btnG=Search). Count those 30 with those found on Thieme based church sites, and over 20% of all the hits appear on sites based on the teachings of Thieme.

I'm not offering an opinion on Thieme one way or the other. I remember when CHS used to quote him as a valid source on a regular basis. I think that only stopped when several up and coming tbs preachers left Lenox to pursue advanced studies with Thieme or based on his teachings. From that point on, Thieme was a marked man...

John

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Did Carl not have anything original? Oh yes, the toupee that is original and one of a kind and for that we are eternally grateful.

[jayso (jayso)]

"God is more concerned about where your heart is at than where your body is." Jay 7:11 http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lame.gif JUST KIDDING FOLKS!

Seriously, is where we are physically located a big deal to Almighty, Omniscient, Omnipresent God?

<font color="aa00aa">Psalm 139:

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. </font><font color="000000">

A short testimony:

As a young Christian, I went to Times Square with a group of "street preachers" from St. Paul's House (Hell's Kitchen neighborhood of NYC).

One of the brothers was so concerned with "geographical will" that he asked an older brother to pray with him because he wanted to know which subway entrance GOD wanted him to go down to catch a train home.

The elder brother (Richard Golz)gave him some "fatherly" advice. "Go down the one that is closest; I'm sure God doesn't mind which steps you take to the subway". The brother said he never goes anywhere before asking God to guide him to the (perfect will) staircase or side of a street to walk on. Problem is that he doesn't hear God's voice clearly. He thought if he had another person to "agree in prayer", that God would supernaturally lead him geographically.

I know this is an extreme case of "geographical will". I don't know what happened to this brother, but hope he took the words of wisdom God gave him through the elder brother.

Back to my original statement. Without twisting any scripture with conjecture, Psalm 139 directly deals with the subject of the "Geographical Will of God".

</font><font color="0000ff"><font face="courier new,courier"><font size="+2"> "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?"</font>
</font></font>

[rj_fernalld (rj_fernalld)]

ROTFLMAO!!!!Louise...you totally rock....*LOL*

[no_touch_love (no_touch_love)]

more like the geographical swill of God!

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2005/11/geographical-swill-of-god.html#comments

[hodeuon (hodeuon)]

I think we're all pretty happy about the fact that God didn't have a "geographical will" that all the first Christians stay in Jerusalem.

I think it's faxcinating to see how much people move around in the book of Acts.

Priscilla &amp; Aquila move from Rome to Corinth:

"After these things Paul departed from Athens and went to Corinth. And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla (because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome); and he came to them. So, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and worked; for by occupation they were tentmakers." (Acts 18:1-3)

And then to Ephesus:

"Paul still remained a good while. Then he took leave of the brethren and sailed for Syria, and Priscilla and Aquila were with him. He had his hair cut off at Cenchrea, for he had taken a vow. And he came to Ephesus, and left them there; but he himself entered the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews." (Acts 18:18-19)

And you can see God at work in these moves:

"Now a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man and mighty in the Scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace; for he vigorously refuted the Jews publicly, showing from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ." (Acts 18:24-28)

Later we see Priscilla &amp; Aquila back in Rome (Romans 16:3) and then in Ephesus again (2 Tim 4:19). And Apollos passing through Crete (Titus 3:13).

I guess it would be difficult to make disciples of all nations if believers all lived in one city.

Hodeuon

[coke_m (coke_m)]

This cult permitted moving; but only if the cult had "sent" you with CHS's "blessing" aka permission!

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

Great post Hodeuon. God commissioned believers to spread the Gospel all over the earth and make disciples all over the earth too. That implies church planting is to take place all over the earth with believers spread all over the earth in those churches. How could the chain reaction of spreading the Gospel and making disciples all over the earth happen efficienty if most or all believers were called to attend church in one place like Baltimore? God's plan was never to keep the vast majority of believers in one place and send a few evangelists and church planters to other parts of the earth to spread the Gospel. Spreading the Gospel is every believer's job in one way or another. "Go ye" in the Bible applies to everyone, not just a small number "sent" by a church. GGWO's geographical will doctrine directly contradicts the Bible on this point and others of course. God distributes His children all over the earth as He wills. Not one church anywhere is some kind of home base of some sort of "geographical will" for all believers. Its not in the Bible!!! I don't need to be some brainwashed zombie in GGWO Baltimore attending classes at MBCS to be in God's will. I'm happily outside of GGWO right where God wants me.

SIDETHORN

[sojourner (sojourner)]

He is God of the whole earth. We are his dwelling place...where we go, He goes.

Pretty simple to me.

I think it is more a matter of our seeing what is revealed to us personally and responding in faith without a lot of fan fare...the more obsessed someone is about asking God about every detail of their lives the more insecure I think they are...

God gave us interests, and desires, and longings...to divide ourselves from them to make some sacrifice and take up some miserable self created version of the cross is not faith in my view, but a religious mindset brought on by misconceptions about God, and a lack of encounter with Love.

If you like green socks don't pray about if you should wear red ones! Such silliness and self-occupation...it is not about me and my choices, it is about something way beyond the scope of my liitle realm of awareness...I think we are just responsible for being open and honest about what we see. An open hand towards heaven...if you are in love with someone you commune with them and in that exchange you decide what it is you want to do...

I used to think if I liked it or wanted it,then it couldn't possibly be God's will...now I look at those desires and see His hand supporting me. Now, in fact I see them as essential to the process of how the spirit leads me. No longer divided from my own sense of self or divided from Him and full of conflict about every detail...that is bondage.
The scriptures tell us that "in him we move and have our being", that "he is closer than our very breath"...why do we act as though He is far removed from us. If nothing can separate us why do we run around trying to get closer to Him or acting as though He has abandoned us.

I think the process of living by faith ivolves an unshakeable view of God's nature and character, and then simply living in the assurance of unconditional, everlasting love.

He delights in us...

Look at how children beam when they are praised by their parents...why should it be any less than that with God's love.
To me, walking by faith means never accepting any idea that you are separated from His presence. After all we were made for Him...is He playing games with us? In the story of the woman who dared to gather crumbs from the floor around His table, Jesus said "I have not seen such great faith in all of Israel". Think of that! Would any of us have equated her actions with great faith?
She kept her understanding of God in tact and didn't let the way society viewed her or labeled her become an obstacle...somehow she knew she could approach Jesus and she challenged His own words towards her that seemed to rebuke and insult her!!! That amazes me and fills me with hope. Those we least expect are going to surprise us one day.

He is omnipresent is He not?

We are His workmanship...He will not, dare I add, cannot despise the work of His own hands.

[isabella (isabella)]

Geographical Will of God:

IF YOU BILK A RICH PERSON AND CLAIM BANKRUPTCY, AND THE JUDGE PUTS AN AUDITOR ON YOUR SITE, THE GEOGRAPHICAL WILL CAN CHANGE 'OVER NIGHT'...AS IN, LET'S GET OUTA HERE AND GO TO BALTIMORE! (BEFORE THEY START COUNTING THE MONEY)

WIGARAMA, WIGAROO....
TOO BAD HE CAN'T TAKE IT WITH HIM....

THANKS,
ISABELLA

[anova (anova)]

Excuse me for interrupting...

Isabella, I haven't been around much, lately. Did you ever finish your story? The last I read of it, funds were being raised for the Gloucester house. What thread was that on?

Anovus

[isabella (isabella)]

Sorry Anovus...

I took it down because I don't have time to write it. I read the posts and found it nausiating in its 'sentimentality'...

My Mother is sick and that ia my only focus right now.

The thread was: 'Isabella's Story', but that became another whole discussion...

When I have the time, I'll post the whole story of the beginning and end of the Gloucester House...if anyone is still interested.

A brief synopsis: There was the beautiful property in Gloucester. Many people were cleaned out and thrown away. I can't believe I didn't see it, but I was too young and not very wise.

We went on and purchased an historical church in Haverhill...beautiful stained glass windows and other treasures.

This went the same way as the Gloucester House...KAPLUNK! Gone in a wink of an eye...sideways!

I asked them about it. Big mistake!...but they did say they would pray about it. Still praying, I think...

Love to you and on/offshore...wish I knew you better.

Wish I was on a big boat with JK, too!

Isabella

[anova (anova)]

Isabella,

Offshore and I spent a night at the Gloucester house. We were there to cover for Carl who wanted to spend the night with one of his girlfriends who he was keeping there.

Sorry your Mom is sick. You will be blessed for caring for her.

Anovus

PS One of these days we will meet. And I will finally get to tell you to "JUST SHUT UP" in person.

[onshore (onshore)]

Hi all you guys!!!!

I have missed you all!

One of these days, I'll be back.
But for the moment, God's geographic will for me is in the kitchen, to take those, pumpkin, blueberry, apple and pecan pies out of the oven. AND......to personally check and see if the Ben and Jerry's is up to par for tomorrow!
Happy Thanksgiving to all of you.
Maybe I'll check Bobby O's wine again too!

[arron (arron)]

i once hear of a man who said there were blessed areas that would be spared during the tribulation period. i considered him a false prophet for i will not be here when the tribulation is here for i will go in THE RAPTURE WITH THE CHURCH as i am saved.

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Yeah Aaron,
I'm with you there.Who wants to hang around and catch God's judgement on this old dirt ball?
I'd rather be at the marriage supper of the Lamb.

God's great for sure.

Dave


</font>}

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

Check out Revelation 3:10. Great promise for all believers that we all will be taken in a split second to be with the Lord forever before the Great Tribulation breaks out of the WHOLE world. That's the ENTIRE PLANET!!! No special areas of protection.

Thank God all of us will be taken who are believers!!! In the twinkling of the eye, the Lord will gather up those that are His at His coming! No other conditions for making the Rapture exist!! Thank God for that!! One day soon, we will be in glory! That will be the true "geographical" will of God for every one of us!! What a great day that will be!!