Legacy of Carl H Stevens

[dancer (dancer)]

I know this may devide many people here but frankly I think this is an important matter. Not that CHS has a great legacy but rather that something happen for the sake of others that evolves around CHS's legaccy.

I have seen what has happened to CHS family, seen what happened to his church, his ministry and the like.

Scores of people have left, scores of churches have left, etc.

The real way to correct the error and the pain is for the leadership of those who are beholding in some way both negative and positive to CHS to stand up and speak loudly about the positives and negatives of the past and make a road for the future of those who are the children of this ministry.

While I would love to see GGWO do the right thing for both Pastor CHS and itself I won't hold my breath. A major reconcilation for its churches, and its ministries could indeed happen, but it will never happen without true repentantence on the part of the leadership and the congregation in Baltimore. If it did happen it would most likely begin a era of wonderful things for GGWO and those connected to it.Again don't hold your breath. I don't believe CHS or TS wants the churches, membership, or affilates bad enough to correct error and abuse tha has happened. Frankly I don't think they want the blessing, the connection or even the money.

The new church association and other groups that have left would be smart to do what GGWO appears unwilling to do. Seek out reconcilation with others in a corperate manner. Move away from a leadership model that degrades families and especially children and women.

Those indivduals who left should do the same.

I will be the first to admit CHS actually taught me a lot. Some of it in error, some of it was great. My understanding of eternal salvation was built on ideas from CHS, my understanding of the finished work of Jesus Christ was started by CHS that I studied and built on by reading scripture.

The ideas about hurting others is not a good thing. It is not acceptable. Nowhere in ministry should be OK to hurt people for the sake of others. God did not intend to use the authority of the church leadership as a reason or method to hurt people for others sake.

I pray that others will chime in and call for a clearer understanding of what we are left with as a result of CHS influence on our lives. That includes both sides.

I am thankful for CHS for much of the good he did. I will not ever be able to accept the cruel things done to me by those in leadership at GGWO in times past.

[lana (lana)]

Thoes still there, refuse to liston to "evil reports". They are loyal and defend the only church that knows the real truth. Everyone else is "off". I know, I have family there. Its going to take time and proof to reach them. Dean Lewis is one but more needs to come out. It will take a blockbuster of some sort to expose it as a CULT, even in the news.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Neil,

It can be supposed that CHS has done much good in his ministry. 100's and even 1000's of folks around the world have been moblized to reach out, love, etc. In fact this is probably the "real value" of CHS' legacy. Whether or not this can mitigate all the negative stuff, seemingly "wasted years", and destruction to families and individual lives is another matter. Carly World was just "one big love in" alright - that is until those at the top had to be held responsible for their evil actions that embarrass and demean the cause of Christ.

Neil, in your own ponderings you speak of the men that hurt you and your family. Were not these men trained by CHS? Was it not his own powerful rhetoric and "system of body life" that underlies so much of "the why" in what these men did? Where are they now? Are they leaving "Carly World" (or the IAGM or whatever) and employing true brokedness to try to help you take responsibility and salvage your family and others in similar situations? Most of us have seen it more than once where spouses who have "left the ministry" simply become "collateral damage" whenever the other spouse runs back to "home base". All of the sudden the Scriptures that speak so clearly to the sacredness of the marriage covenant are subservient to how the "boys in charge" interpret the situation.

At some point we all have to take responsiblity for our actions and words when they have wounded others and caused evil. CHS has rarely done this - but instead "cried persecution" or denigrated those who challenged him. As Terra_Cognita basically once said "CHS thinks he's like God it that others have to be reconcilled to him - but he does not have to be reconcilled to anyone else". It appears that Tom Schaller is continuing with this philosophy.

If there is any thing they can do to restore your family and help you achieve the mental, emotional, spiritual, and financial stability to reestablish and maintain your responsibilty as a husband and father, then by all means they MUST do so. Because you and your (ex?) wife where nutured, married, became parents, etc. under their care why are they not "leaving the other 99" to care for you? They are covenantally bound to do this. You might show up in Baltimore and ask this question.




Brian Bowman
John 3:21

(Message edited by nonotone on December 27, 2005)

[dancer (dancer)]

Hey Brian I love your comments and questions.

Frankly I don't think that I would be welcomed at GGWO.Last time I went there they were looking to put in jail on a restraining order that doesn't exist. My wife and I have a simple do not harrass order which is far from a stay away order as security put it at GGWO to a friend of mine.

TS is the great uncle of my children. I have to tell you I believe my mother in law is a good person. I believe she really seeks Christ in her life.

What is owed to my family is a lot. Like so many others what was done to us more than 5 years ago was the begining to the end of our marriage.

My mistakes compounded things greatly, there is no denying that. But when I was making 10k a year at GGWO working 70-80 hours a week, and fully supportive of GGWO even against my better judgement my support was pretty limited on the other side.

I see people used and hurt all the time. Butch Veader was the guy who help me and my family at several points.Much of his loyalty and effort baffles me because many within the ministry would have loved nothing more than destroy him, many of those people are still there. When he needed help I saw many just ignore him and his family.

Your last paragraph is very interesting. The church is indeed bound by church discpline and coventant to help restore our lives.

I have always told the folks at GGWO, and even those who have left who tried to help like P. Stevens and S. Stevens I would do anything to restore my marriage. They (Leadership of GGWO) are not interested in this.

It saddens me that a ministry has not only desire but the will to knowingly and intentionally be involved in my children growing up with their parents split up, and them (the children)not having a relationship with their father. It is the actual desire of the ministry leadership as I understand it for it to be that way with many people.

That is not sad it is disturbing and frankly it stands at odds with the word of God.

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

Good post Neil. I too hope CHS, TS, and others in leadership at GGWO will repent in time before more divine judgement will come. Some judgement already has obviously come already. However, the GGWO leadership will have to let go of their pride, intolerance of those who disagree with them, and the legacy of Carl Stevens if they ever want to survive as any kind of ministry.

The fact remains that GGWO created its own faulty version of Christianity and its own exclusive subculture around Carl Steven's erroneous interpretations of the Scriptures as well as Carl's own pride. This CHS legacy holds CHS up on a pedistal of full blown idolatrous pastor worship. CHS and now TS are presumed to be God's perfect spokesman and to disagree with them is to disagree with God. These men are supposedly the ones with the truth and everyone else not in line with them is in error and rebellion against God. Then these guys demand people's loyalty and blind obedience to them over their own family, friends and even their own consciences. They claim only they are wise enough to have a right to think for themselves and everyone else has to entrust them to do all the thinking for them. The loyalty and trust that people would normally give to God directly has been misdirected to CHS and TS. God will not put up with this indefinately!!!

The twisted loyalty teachings have taught their loyal flock to reject, condemn, slander, and throw away anyone not in perfect obedience and agreement with the GGWO leaders. These leaders twist the Scriptures concerning truly divisive people to condemn anyone not following themselves 100% as divisive, evil, and "off" when they are not. How many hundreds of people have been publicly slandered and humiliated with lies and personal information shared in confidence simply because they wanted to follow God and their consciences rather than follow these charlatans who want to use them for their own personal gain??? How many people have lost friends?? How many have lost loved ones?? How many have had their marriages destroyed?? This is part of the Carl Stevens legacy!!!!

Those with emotional scars are also treated with contempt. GGWO leaders presume these poor precious people of God are in rebellion against HIM. Instead of getting love and healing at GGWO, the hurting people get condemnation and rejection. GGWO also teaches that all emotional scars that people have automatically get erased when a person gets born again. This is absolutely false!!! Not one shred of Scripture supports this and anyone who knows anything about Biblical psychology knows this teaching to be false also. But GGWO leaders keep teaching this as part of their justification of condemning people with emotional issues. They might tell them that they just want to be bitter and live in the past or love to be complainers. Then GGWO condemns them for these things when they aren't even true. The cries of these hurting people have been heard by God and their blood is on GGWO leaders' hands. Sooner or later, God will deal with these leaders.

Its very sad how CHS and now TS twist the wonderful truths in the Bible about salvation by grace plus nothing and eternal security to create their own pharisee religeon. How true freedom in Christ became such bondage under CHS. How loyalty to God was misdirected to a man who wanted to be served instead of serve others. What a sad legacy!!! All these years spent on a legacy that will be turned into dust by God Himself. Only whats done for God will last!!! These rest will get blown away as dust. Without a willingness to humble themselves and let God work through them to reach the people, how can CHS, TS, and the rest of the GGWO leadership ever hope to have a lasting legacy that means anything??? Lets hope they wake up and repent before its too late!!

SIDETHORN

[nonotone (nonotone)]

As far as "emotional issue" goes - Carl sure appears to be an open and shut textbook case for narcissistic personality disorder. He sure did succeed in emasculating men into "nancy boys" who suck up to him at every turn AND getting women (married or single) to transfer their loyalty to him. It's disgusting. I mean think about it. How many folks gave up 10-15 hours per week JUST TO DRIVE to get to "the Plaza" so they could see and hear Carl and participate in the "activiities"

This can (and IMO should) take place in churches localized to the towns and neighborhoods we live in, NOT in some centralized "warehouse" where we drive 10's of miles to hear some self-aggrandizing rooster flap his pie-hole. We need a "community of faith" where our individual gifts and familes are honored in unity.

Brian

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

As far as CHS goes, I've never seen such a cocky rooster so full of himself with such a hunger for peoples' loyalty to be directed solely to him. CHS created a whole nation of suckups, some who would be willing to spend over $3 dollars a gallon last summer to drive themselves 10s of miles to the plaza to hear all that babble from their pulpit and sell their individuality to the cult for nothing!!!! Thank God there are other churches where we can be ourselves and our individual gifts can be nurtured and used in Christ's service.

SIDETHORN

(Message edited by sidethorn on December 27, 2005)

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Brian;"The question remains (and It's been asked for over a year now), why is maintaining the "ministry infrastructure" more important than making restitution and doing justice? Pretty simple, in the GGWO economy apparently the doctrinal abstractions of CHS are more important than the sure words of God's Biblical prophets."
-----
You forgot to mention the money,the greed and lust for power.
The lack of concern for their fellow man and total disregard for all of God's Word.


Dave


</font>}

[bosubey (bosubey)]

When we read the story of King Saul in 1st Samuel we see how God stopped speaking to Saul fairly early in his reign. But for the sake of His own people God continued to give military success despite the crummy leadership of their king. God has always been behind the scenes at TBW/GGWO to make sure that salvation was always available to those who were seeking. It was never CHS or anything he or we ever did. We don't ever have to worry about an infrasctructure falling apart. We aren't in charge of any kingdom. God eventually removed Saul from leadership and established a new dynasty under David. But the people of the kingdom had nothing to do with that. If everyone in Baltimore just left for somewhere else and one of the ushers locked the doors and took down the signs, God would not be at a loss at what to do next to get people saved. After all, He sent angels with the GOOD NEWS to some shepards and a star to some wise men far to the east.
We are just fortunate that God for some reason has chosen to use us to bring others to Him. I don't think it's because we are so special, I think it has more to do with our own obedience to Him and what it does for the growth in our own lives.

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

Amazing how God sovereignly reaches people with His love and truths through other people so many times. He likes that!! Despite the corrupt leadership in GGWO, God has still been reaching people there. God is so great, He doesn't need any person to accomplish His work, but He chooses to involve people in His work if they will just let Him. When a person puts down their own ideas, agendas, programs, and ambitions, that is when they become usable to God. There's some food for thought for CHS, TS and the rest of them.

No matter how much Carl Stevens and his inner circle think they are the center of Christianity and truth, they are not!!!!! God does not need these men one bit to advance His kingdom. They should really set aside all their arrogance and ponder this. God would like to use them but He can't as long as they want to do things their way and further their own man made teachings as the teachings of God when they are not!!! I hope these men repent before time runs out. Without that, one day God Himself will tear down the GGWO infrastructure and the front doors at Frankford Plaza will be locked for good. The man made empire will collapse and God's kingdom will not suffer one bit since God's kingdom does not need GGWO at all. As long as GGWO remains a cult, God's kingdom is better off without GGWO!!! If GGWO falls and it probably will, God Himself will take care of everyone there that will simply turn to Him. He loves everyone that much!!!! What He wants is our hearts. He wants us to involve ourselves in His programs instead of some cheap man made substitute programs. Just as God removed Saul from leadership, CHS and TS will be brought down too without genuine repentance. People will still go on getting saved just as much without CHS and TS standing behind any pulpits. God's kingdom will go on and we will go on!!!

SIDETHORN

[dancer (dancer)]

All I am somewhat amazed that this little thread has had something of impression on me what has happened and keeps happening.

I see Gods hand in all of this.God has allowed people both those still at GGWO and those who have left the opportunity to stand right before him.My mistakes are to many to count.To me there is no denying the wrong I have done.I wish others could and would do the same.I think saying that you made mistakes in so incredibly easy and it makes me wonder why its so incredibly hard that GGWO leadership can't even do that. I don't need people to say exactly what they did, when they did it, etc. But for the sake of thousands just saying we need to repent of these actions would be a start that would help so many.

I think the only way I can see GGWO now is that God is taking it apart brick by brick. The wall is coming down. The only action that stop the work of God in allowing this to happen will be those in this situation to stand up and be honest.

I have no trouble saying I have made mistakes. I think God honors my desire to be reconciled to those who I have mistakes by. I don't see how God can reconcile people who are unwilling to confess they have failed.

Lord knows I have failed. Lord help me.I pray my family does not forver pay a price for my mistakes and the desires of others to destroy us. What is so Godly about that desire? If TS or like picked up the phone and tried he could help reconcile all of my family.He simply does not see it that way as best as I can tell. May God proove me wrong.

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

Before things can change at GGWO, Carl Stevens, Tom Schaller and their partners must swallow their pride, give up their arrogance, admit they are not perfect, admit they have sinned and abused people, publicly repent, publicly renounce all the false teaching and seek out those they hurt to reconcile with them. Until then, GGWO will continue to be taken apart by God until its all gone!!

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

GGWO is exactly what Carl intended it to be. A group of people who worship Carl Stevens under the pretense of being an evangelical Bible believing church. GGWO has nothing to do with Jesus except that it uses the Holy Bible and Christ's message of redemption to take advantage of Christians. This group was never meant to be right or make things right. This group was created for Carl Stevens and the men he trained to follow in his footsteps to control people through mind control using Jesus Christ and evangelical Christianity. GGWO is all about praising men not Jesus.

Hence, with the exception of Carl Stevens receiving a serious dose of ‘what goes around comes around’ in that now he is a drug addicted loopy old man (I’m quite sure that was not his intention) his legacy is otherwise just as he wanted, a group of nice people who have given their minds over to a cult that worships men as Jesus. Carl Stevens was excellent at what he did. He is a master huckster.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

louise,

The more I consider these things the more I agree. Carl's entire system is "a refuge for a charlatan" (to quote a friend of mine who has been to GGWO Balitmore and is well aware of my nine-year GGWO "journey").

I believe that Carl's conscience is destroyed. Several years ago he visted the famous Dr. Peter D'Adamo of Portsmouth, NH. Carl reported to us at a GGWO rap or service (I don't remember which) that the good Dr. D'Adamo's dignosis was that Carl had the "body of a much younger man" but that his (Carl's) intestines were in worst shape that he (D'Adamo) had ever seen. The ministry "spun" this by stating that this was due to Carl's unusual burden for his troubled sheep. In fact, I believe it is due to Carl's destoryed conscience. The fact that Carl virutally memorized the KJV Bible has given his physche enough exposure to the Truth to *know* that what he was doing and teaching was NOT right! Carl's abuse of the "finished work" and "always cover your Pastor/Teacher because he is God's man, etc." was/is that "refuge for a charlatan". It looks like it has caught up with him. May God have mercy on Carl H. Stevens.


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

GGWO is not only a refuge for charlatans, it is a factory of charlatans. Carl raised up other charlatans under his own religeon of the pastor/teacher is always right and is never to be questioned and can do whatever they want under the ends justify the means and instant rebound. Examples of manufactured charlatans would be Schaller, Scibelli, and Love. They all preach the same crap as Carl and use the message of Christ to take advantage of people and manipulate them. They also expect the people to redirect their loyalty and worship to them.

Of course it looks like Carl is on the receiving end of what goes around comes around. That also can happen to Schaller, Scibelli, and Love at any time as well. Something these charlatans need to consider!! Time will tell what happens. God will not allow the carnage of people at Greater Grace to continue indefinately!!

We've already seen some of God's judgement on GGWO already. Look at the hundreds that have already left along with many of the affiliate churches. Then there's also Factnet and other public disclosures about GGWO. This is only the beginning for GGWO if the corrupt leadership there will not repent and reconcile with the many people they attacked over the years. One way or another,the GGWO cult's days are numbered. This cult will disappear by true repentance or by being forced to close its doors forever. The GGWO leadership will get to chose which method by which its cult nation will end. Repent and allow God to transform it into a healthy true Christian ministry or refuse to repent and be destroyed. The choice is theirs.

SIDETHORN

[nonotone (nonotone)]

... and I would add that TRUE REPENTANCE on the part of these leaders would include removing themselves from ministry for a significant number of years and being retaught by proven men outside of GGWO.


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

Right on Brian.

Those pastors in the IAGM should also think about taking some time off and getting retrained by the proven men outside of GGWO.

SIDETHORN

[nonotone (nonotone)]

... problem is that many of them are convinced (because of the special veneration they give Carl and "the ministry") that all others "don't know the Finished Work" are "deficient in Soul Winning" or some other non-sense. In other words they may just be too arrogant to realize how much they need to be retaught. Most of all they don't seem willing to forsake the approbation they are already getting from the current "faithful" in GGWO.

Brian Bowman
John 3:21

(Message edited by nonotone on December 28, 2005)

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

That arrogant know it all attitude was all to prevelant at GGWO. Many of its pastors presumed that nobody outside GGWO knew anything compared to them. These pastors assumed they were so perfect that they need no correction when its so obvious to any objective neutral observer that they do.

SIDETHORN

[redjemima (redjemima)]

nonotone,

would you have a current email contact for your neighbour Cris Townsend. I would like to correspond with him regarding his time under Thieme. The website you mentioned of Cris's a while ago is currently down.
If you like, you can pass on my email:-
mtnviscacha at lycos dot com

[nonotone (nonotone)]

done redjemima!