FORGIVENESS VS TRUST

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

I was reading at another site regarding these two issues and wanted some input from others if you wouldn't mind.

For me forgiveness never was an issue. I was hurt, bewildered and confused but I still loved the very people that hurt me.

I love my children, love doesn't stop or change when it is real. I believe love and forgiveness are married to one another.

When someone you love hurts you, you are hurt but your love hasn't change so forgiveness, at least for me, is part of the package of love.

Trust on the other hand must be earned. When someone you trust has betrayed the cut is very deep. When betrayed by a group of people it cuts your heart in ribbons. You are hurt, bewildered and confused. These were people you loved and trusted.

You forgive them for mercy's sake and because it cleansing. But trust? I will probably never trust another church, pastor or even Christian again. and that is so very sad.

Nancy

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

Right on Nancy!!!! I'm very sorry for whats happened to you. May God be with you and fix things up!!! Forgiveness is certainly something God wants us to give freely. Trust has to be earned by hard work over time!! Words are very cheap but actions speak much more loudly than words ever could.

As far as GGWO goes, I give them my forgiveness for free and will always love them as fellow human beings. As for trust, GGWO will have to work their behinds off for a very long time to ever get that back. To me, their words mean nothing!! After all the lies and slander, how could their words be taken seriously??? Let them gain back my trust with actions. Lets see some public renounciation of the false teachings like geographical will, GGWO pastors are always perfect, GG is better than everyone else and the only real truth, mandatory submission to unaccountable leadership in everything, mandatory Sunday service attendance, required pastor worship, no touch love, no rock or rap music of any kind, and the required condemnation, slander and separation of anyone who would question the teachings or actions of any GGWO pastor. Lets see accountable leadership for a change like to other reputable ministries. Lets see some humility for once with a willingness to publicly relearn Biblical doctrines from others that actually do know what they're doing. Lets see financial restitution to those swindled out of hard earned money for CHS and his inner circle to spend as they wish. How about some compensation for those who spent many long hours working for GG for next to nothing in wages. Lets see a full public disclosure of all the GGWO assets and finances and a willingness to get their whole house in order. Lets see the leaders and others in GGWO seek out the individuals they hurt with the slanderous marking treatment to take back all the lies and repair the damaged reputations and lives.

I for one was ousted and marked by my GG affiliate church by my former pastor, youth leader and the youth leader's wife with slanderous gossip after being a youth worker there for almost five years. My failure to practice all the false teaching in my own life and preach it to the kids was the main reason along with my being a comforting big brother to the kids under God's direction. After being fired, I was slandered as a spiritually dangerous agent of evil and a pervert simply because I wouldn't let them control me and because the kids turned to me for comfort, truth, love, attention, support and advice which they couldn't get from the church. If this "church" would give the kids real love and truth instead of trying to control them so much and brainwash them into the Carl Stevens false teaching, none of this would have happened!!! I'm still working with hurting, alienated kids rejected by that "church" to this day. Now if that pastor, youth leader, and the youth leader's wife ever want me to trust them again, why don't they go with me to all the parents and other kids they spread the slander about me to and publicly retract all the lies and admit that they were a cult of deceitful manipulators???? If they ever want me to trust them or eat with them ever again, that's what they must do along with all of the above in the last paragraph. Let the prove to me with hard work and sweat that they can be trusted!!! These people have my love and forgiveness as human beings but until they are willing to get up and do these things, they will never have my trust again.

SIDETHORN

(Message edited by sidethorn on December 29, 2005)

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I believe forgiveness is something the Lord directs us to give if it is asked for. Personally, I choose to forgive even if it's not. But trust is another thing altogether. Trust to me is a matter of personal choice. I am directed to trust the Lord Himself very clearly in the Scriptures. I seek to walk in the Spirit and want Him to prompt me to trust others as He would have me to. I don't regret trusting someone who has let me down, though I may regret the consequences of it. But it would seem very difficult to restore trust in one who has betrayed you.

Furthermore, trust can have a very narrow focus. I may trust another in one particular thing, while not trusting them in others. Often trust has to do with functional practicality. Sometimes you even risk trusting someone you expect to let you down. Failure and betrayal are part of walking with Him. Do we expect to be treated better than our Master?

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Great posts!

It is a little frustrating to deal with those who equate forgiveness with amnesia, though. (I'm certainly not referring to either of you, Mercy and Sidethorn.)

I agree wholeheartedly with trust being earned. It's a part of accountability. Many in leadership at GGWO have been doing abusive and evil things for DECADES. When tough questions are asked of the leadership that has suddenly had an epiphany concerning their evil behavior, then there is a sudden outpouring of sermons concerning forgiveness. The idea is to forgive and FORGET! (Emphasis on "forget".)

No one was allowed to ask questions of the GGWO leadership. Actually, it wasn't even allowed to THINK these questions. You see how it all ended up.

I don't trust these guys as far as I can throw them.

[bosubey (bosubey)]

Since the early 70's, trust was always something that you put in Carl. Even if it contradicted the Word of God or the law of the land. Carl's teaching that the end always justified the means is one of the most insideous lies I can think of. For to put your faith in what Carl is doing, is NOT putting your faith in what God is doing. 30 years ago I put my trust in Carl and the TBS corporate attorney. Biblicaly it was wrong. But I fell for the delusion that if I lied, I was doing God a big favor. I would be protecting the MINISTRY OF GOD. In reality I was protecting Carl's a**. Had I searched the Word, shared and prayed with others for confirmation (in much counsel there is wisdom), I would have not done what I did. In thinking about this, it's possible that TBS could have ended right then and there and Carl would have been exposed for the charlatan that he was/is. It's something that has plagued me all these years. I did not trust anyone in any ministry for a long time. Finally, after admitting that what I did was NOT a favor to God, but sin, then asking God for forgiveness for the lie that I told, I finally began to come out of the fog. And this was 15 years later. I have learned since that trust in God will always gives me the proper perspective of how much trust to put in others. I am free to say no, to back out, to change my mind if I see things heading south. If others become disapointed in me for that, so what. Many times the trust we put in others is because of the emotion of not wanting to disapoint them (or God). Even my wife no longer falls for that. She'll stand there with a fist on one hip, a rolling pin in the other fist and fire in both eyes and say, "stop it now". She still loves me, repects me, and even trusts me, but something from the Holy Spirit speaks to her and says "this just may not be the right thing to do. So challenge your man and check to see if it's from ME". It was hard when it first began to happen but now I recognize that this is how God may speak to me. Any ministry worth it's salt will have similar accountability. Mine does.
We don't have to fear trusting someone else. As long as our trust in God is foremost. He will be faithful to show us how far our trust in others should go. }}

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

Thanks Boss. You're so right about GGWO being so quick to preach on the forgive and forget part to put guilt trips on people not to expose the iniquity of the corrupt GGWO leadership or even think about it!!! GGWO leaders hate truthful exposure of themselves and will do almost anything including twisting God's messages about forgiveness to stop it. CHS, TS, and the rest of them want everyone to worship them as the perfect 21st century apostles instead of exposing them as the true sleezeballs they really are. Of course GG is so quick to condemn exposure of their sin as being unloving, unforgiving, bitter, and living in the past. What a load of crap!!! Just because I call Carl Stevens a charlatan, a deceiver, a sleezeball, a jerk and expose him publically does not mean that I automatically don't love him, and hold unforgiveness toward him. Even Jesus Himself did this kind of thing with the Pharisees! I'd love to see Carl repent and be healed and have that abundant Christian life so I won't have to say anything about him anymore to drive unsuspecting people away from him for their spiritual safety. If Carl doesn't want me calling him a charlatan and a jerk to drive a point home, then Carl should stop acting like a charlatan and a jerk and stop hurting other people and taking advantage of them. Same goes for the rest of them. The choice is Carl's and everyone else that runs GGWO and participates in its programs and policies that hurt others. Love does not demand that I stay silent while a cult leader swindles, decieves, brainwashes, manipulates and divides people over loyalty to himself. Just the opposite. As long as the cult leader refuses to repent, he should be exposed. That is true love for all people like God would want.

SIDETHORN

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Hello All,
Since coming from an abusive background, forgivness for me was a heard lesson to learn, but it is something we must do or the results will be roots of bitterness. They can actually strangle the very Spiritual Life right out of you. Now Biblical forgivness is seen in the life of Joseph. Betrayed by his brothers, sold into slavery, falsely accused and imprisoned. Well to make a very long story short Joseph forgave his brothers and named his first son Manessah which means God has made me to forget all my troubles. In this instance I have heard it said that forgetting means to never bring the subject up again. There is possibly nothing worse than someone saying they forgive you, but as soon as something goes wrong, they throw it up in your face again.
Now practically speaking, yes we can forgive, but forgetting someone who has truly tore your heart out is a whole different story. In Ps 27:10 the Bible states this " when my father and mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up>" That verse means this "to me": Who usually would be the closest people on planet earth to you? Your mom and pops; right? Now if THEY can forsake you, hurt you, betray you, what is anyone else liable to do. This verse also tells me that if this is the case, then the only one I can fully trust is God. "HE will never leave you nor FORSAKE you"
Nancy, I don't feel right telling you "Right On" when to never trust another is a sad place to be. Life is trust in certain degree's. We encounter people everyday and we have to make a conscience decision as to whether or not we can trust them or not. Please consider the severity of what you said. In saying this, is saying that you are going to cut your self off from any type of fellowship with the Body of Christ. If they are coming to your house for a Bible study, your going to have to trust them, even if it's only to a certain degree. Trust is a gamble that we take daily when we encounter other people. Our investment in another person, no matter how small requires A MEASURE OF TRUST. To live in any other fashion would be to live the life of a recluse. We were not created to live as such. Nancy, I will pray that this is not the way it turns out for you. Everytime we encounter another human being we are required to place in that person a trust of some sort and the negative side to that is that we always will put ourselves in a position to be hurt,to have our heart broken, and that my dear friend is just life in the Big City, so to speak. I'm sure Joseph never forgot all the stuff he went through, but because what his brothers intended for evil, God intended for good and because the Lord despite all the hardships Joseph encountered, blessed him in the midst of them all, that is why Joe could say "God has made me to forget all my toil and all my fathers house." Manessah. Nancy, the Lord is going to bless you as he did Joseph. Just hearing the words that you speak sometimes blesses the socks right off me. You have a gift, that few can say they have.
Love you sister. Tom and Lisa. Sorry for the sermon>>>>>>>http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif