Being Led by the Spirit

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

Since we've had a few healthy discussions on some other topics here recently (election, Calvinism and Arminianism, the problem of evil, etc) I thought I'd shoot this one out for everyone.

I don't know about you folks, but when I was in GG I sure thought I was being Spirit-led. I think that basically everyone there - and everyone who has left - feels that they are being led of God.

So if we have the Spirit of God living inside of us, why do we have so much of a problem just being on the same page as believers? Why all the different views, all the alternative interpretations of scriptures, all the doctrinal differences?

Why doesn't God unify us?

Why do we talk about God "leading my family to this city" or "God showed me that I needed to get right about this," but then we can blantantly see that God has NOT lead us into agreement into issues of major importance. Frankly, as we've seen on other threads, something like election and the soteriology of the faith is EXTREMELY important, yet there are vast differences in views. I think that God cares a heck of a lot more about what I believe about salvation or the person of Christ than He does about where I live. Why then am I being led into a certain church or location or way of life, yet NOT being led into a unity with other believers? If I have been captured by "irrestible grace," and been given the very presense of God in my heart, then why in the world hasn't that indwelling gotten me into an overall agreement?

There's so much more to say, but I've got to get to my Tuesday Bible study.

Talk amongst yourselves!

OTP

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

Good post OTP- I'm very interested in what the 'answers' will be :-)

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

Thanks Dinaweena!

And while we wait for the rush of posts, here's a return to your regularly scheduled program:

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2006/01/but-is-it-coming-or-going.html

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

ummm...can I just say "eeewwww!!"

Also, I happen to think we ARE being led into a unity with other believers, but our own intellect and ideologies get in the way of the Person of Christ and His Life being ours. Too many arguments (me too) take us far, far away from Him being the Way, Truth, and Life. We are human, we choose seperation and haughtiness over unity....we would rather be right (in our own minds) than be unified as one Body. Just an opinion....not trying to 'teach any one the Bible' or say that I have the answer....it just made me think....Thanks for that, OTP. Guess what? I think you're cute (meaning endearing) too and I appreciate your perspective.

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

We could always use this factnet board to discuss the cult of which many of us were members or somehow profoundly affected. We could then go to theology discussion boards and debate all our doctrines as much as we needed. There are hundreds of Bible discussion boards. This board is about cults and their use of mind control of which GGWO has been relatively successful.

Some of our greatest doctrinal debaters on this board either never got over the cult rejecting them or are so freshly out of the cult they don't even realize how much they need to be deprogrammed let alone be sharing their superior Bible knowledge with others.

All in all though, I guess it just shows what an affect TBS/GGWO had on all of us. We are all case studies on how time in a cult affects a person. Imagine, so many folks have to use handles because they are still afraid of someone in that foolish group in Baltimore knowing who they are. If you have family there it may help them to see a relative with the courage to share what happened to them.

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

I like that perspective Dinaweena. I think that, yes, we get in the way. But it seems like we humans can unite in so many other ways, why is what should be the most important thing so hard?

Connolly: Do you think the people in GG were/are being led by the Spirit, or were/are they merely decieved by a cult? When you were in, were you led or decieved?

Is the spiritual experience we all crave and use to validate our faith simply a biological byproduct of habits and ingrained thought processes? Or is there really REAL spiritual experience? How can we know the difference? I believe that the Spirit has made witness within me. By faith I believed. Can there be any verification of this?

Was I being Spirit-led while in GG? If I wasn't, then how do I know that I'm being led by the Spirit NOW? If people WERE being Spirit-led while in GG, why didn't they root out the doctrinal heresy? Why didn't they leave? Why is there still a GGWO if there are people in it who are Spirit led?

God is powerful enough to call the universe into existence. Why can't the people who are called by His name see disunity, heresies, and other ills of the church and get out or start making them right?

God is the Ultimate Unity. It seems that His children have almost no unity.

This is a tragedy.

OTP

[calv (calv)]

Of course family members who should happen to share
on said board may be attacked by "the spirit led"....?!?!

All in all though, I guess it just shows what an affect TBS/GGWO had on all of us. We are all case studies on how time in a cult affects a person. Imagine, so many folks have to use handles because they are still afraid of someone in that foolish group in Baltimore knowing who they are. If you have family there it may help them to see a relative with the courage to share what happened to them.

[daved (daved)]

I think that what Pastor Carl Stevens said on Sunday September 18, 2005 is applicable to the topic being discussed here.

<font color="ff0000">[Much applause]

Pastor Carl Stevens: Ok friends, dear friends.
Turn in your Bibles to I Corinthians,
You may be seated,
I Corinthians…Verse 10

Pastor Carl Stevens: Who has it?

Now I beseech you brethren,
by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ

Say that?

<font color="0000ff">Congregation repeats: “barely audible”??</font>


Pastor Carl Stevens: that you all speak the same thing,
Say it.

<font color="0000ff">Congregation repeats: that you all speak the same thing.</font>


Pastor Carl Stevens: that there be no divisions among you.

<font color="0000ff">Congregation repeats: that there be no divisions among you.</font>


Pastor Carl Stevens: that ye be perfectly joined together.

<font color="0000ff">Congregation repeats: that ye be perfectly joined together.</font>


Pastor Carl Stevens: in the same mind and same judgment.

<font color="0000ff">Congregation repeats: in the same mind and same judgment.</font>


Pastor Carl Stevens: When the scriptures speak of divine unity,
it is amazing,
shocking,
fantastically,
harmoniously beautiful.

Perfectly joined together.

Everything has gone through the cross.
There isn’t anything left,
Everything’s been crucified with Christ.
So the first truth….in Proverbs 10:20 is the silver tongue
We all speak the same thing,
And the Word of God says that we’re perfectly joined together in the same mind,
in the same judgment, through doctrine.

Now that’s revival.

It’s not the subjective Christian that lives in his own personal experience….
NO
He goes to Calvary,
He speaks the same thing.

He doesn’t leave his local assembly because he likes somebody’s personality.

[applause]

He doesn’t join some other group, because they’re close.

They all speak the same thing,
same mind,
same love,
no division,
no indifference.


I am sorry. I’m in such pain, I’ve got to quit.

But God Bless you.

[applause]</font>

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Just like a terrible car crash with injuries, it's hard to look away from Factnet. My thoughts on "being led" to GGWO or "God's Will" concerning GGWO can be seen in the following article I have copied from the Larknews.com site:

Man seeks God's will over coffee selection


TRUCKEE — After spending several months seeking the Lord, Brian Rutledge says God gave him the answer he sought: latte.
Rutledge's question: Did God prefer him to have a latte or cappuccino in the morning?
"I believe God is interested in the minutiae of my life," he says. "He knows every hair on my head; surely he has ideas about my actions throughout the day."
Rutledge says the coffee question bothered him for several years, and he felt guilty about being in "God's permissive will, but not his perfect will." Finally he decided to make it a matter of prayer.
"I have access to the God of the universe," he says. "Why not ask his opinion?"
He received his answer during early-morning prayer in the guest bedroom of his home. He rushed out to Starbucks and ordered a guilt-free grande latte.
"It was one of the great moments of my life," he says. "I knew without a doubt that I was in the very center of God's will."
But the relief didn't last long. Rutledge soon began to wonder if God minds if he adds sugar to his latte, and how many packets God prefers him to use, and whether Rutledge should use white sugar, unrefined sugar, Equal or even Sweet'N Low. Rutledge has made it a matter of "serious prayer" and is confident he'll receive an answer, since lately God has also helped him choose which kind of toothpaste to use, which side of the bed to sleep on, and whether to watch Hannity &amp; Colmes at 6 p.m. or 9 p.m.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Just like a terrible car crash with injuries, it's hard to look away from Factnet. My thoughts on "being led" to GGWO or "God's Will" concerning GGWO can be seen in the following article I have copied from the Larknews.com site:

Man seeks God's will over coffee selection


TRUCKEE — After spending several months seeking the Lord, Brian Rutledge says God gave him the answer he sought: latte.
Rutledge's question: Did God prefer him to have a latte or cappuccino in the morning?
"I believe God is interested in the minutiae of my life," he says. "He knows every hair on my head; surely he has ideas about my actions throughout the day."
Rutledge says the coffee question bothered him for several years, and he felt guilty about being in "God's permissive will, but not his perfect will." Finally he decided to make it a matter of prayer.
"I have access to the God of the universe," he says. "Why not ask his opinion?"
He received his answer during early-morning prayer in the guest bedroom of his home. He rushed out to Starbucks and ordered a guilt-free grande latte.
"It was one of the great moments of my life," he says. "I knew without a doubt that I was in the very center of God's will."
But the relief didn't last long. Rutledge soon began to wonder if God minds if he adds sugar to his latte, and how many packets God prefers him to use, and whether Rutledge should use white sugar, unrefined sugar, Equal or even Sweet'N Low. Rutledge has made it a matter of "serious prayer" and is confident he'll receive an answer, since lately God has also helped him choose which kind of toothpaste to use, which side of the bed to sleep on, and whether to watch Hannity &amp; Colmes at 6 p.m. or 9 p.m.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Just like a terrible car crash with injuries, it's hard to look away from Factnet. My thoughts on "being led" to GGWO or "God's Will" concerning GGWO can be seen in the following article I have copied from the Larknews.com site:

Man seeks God's will over coffee selection


TRUCKEE — After spending several months seeking the Lord, Brian Rutledge says God gave him the answer he sought: latte.
Rutledge's question: Did God prefer him to have a latte or cappuccino in the morning?
"I believe God is interested in the minutiae of my life," he says. "He knows every hair on my head; surely he has ideas about my actions throughout the day."
Rutledge says the coffee question bothered him for several years, and he felt guilty about being in "God's permissive will, but not his perfect will." Finally he decided to make it a matter of prayer.
"I have access to the God of the universe," he says. "Why not ask his opinion?"
He received his answer during early-morning prayer in the guest bedroom of his home. He rushed out to Starbucks and ordered a guilt-free grande latte.
"It was one of the great moments of my life," he says. "I knew without a doubt that I was in the very center of God's will."
But the relief didn't last long. Rutledge soon began to wonder if God minds if he adds sugar to his latte, and how many packets God prefers him to use, and whether Rutledge should use white sugar, unrefined sugar, Equal or even Sweet'N Low. Rutledge has made it a matter of "serious prayer" and is confident he'll receive an answer, since lately God has also helped him choose which kind of toothpaste to use, which side of the bed to sleep on, and whether to watch Hannity &amp; Colmes at 6 p.m. or 9 p.m.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

As an outsider looking in, I think that the term "being led", at least in the GGWO/cultic sense, is just more jargon used to give more importance to someone's idea or actions. Using the term "I was led by the Holy Spirit to buy the Camaro instead of the Mustang" (and I've heard it used for EVERYTHING) is designed to end any debate on an issue from outsiders and remove any responsibility from the person that uses the term. If you just change jobs because you hate your old job, then it's YOUR fault if it turns out to be worse than the old job. If you say the HOLY SPIRIT LED YOU to change jobs, then any adversity can be labelled as God preparing you for something better, etc. While I think that some are sincere when they say it, I have most often heard that people were led by God to enter GGWO. I think it is a way of avoiding any responsibility for making a bad decision, even if it was innocently done or with incomplete information. I also think it is part of belonging to a group like GGWO, where being spiritually "off" is a very bad thing indeed. If you constantly use the jargon "God led me", then it shows how much in tune with God you are. After all, in GGWO (and other similar groups), being visibly in touch with God at all times is the mark of having a "vertical" relationship.

I've heard and read the "God/Holy Spirit led me" line used for stuff as mundane as what hairstyle to wear. To me, it's a way to "out-Jesus" others by outwardly SHOWing that every facet of your life is under Godly control, even when it isn't. I purposely capitalized "SHOW", because that's what it is to me.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

As an outsider looking in, I think that the term "being led", at least in the GGWO/cultic sense, is just more jargon used to give more importance to someone's idea or actions. Using the term "I was led by the Holy Spirit to buy the Camaro instead of the Mustang" (and I've heard it used for EVERYTHING) is designed to end any debate on an issue from outsiders and remove any responsibility from the person that uses the term. If you just change jobs because you hate your old job, then it's YOUR fault if it turns out to be worse than the old job. If you say the HOLY SPIRIT LED YOU to change jobs, then any adversity can be labelled as God preparing you for something better, etc. While I think that some are sincere when they say it, I have most often heard that people were led by God to enter GGWO. I think it is a way of avoiding any responsibility for making a bad decision, even if it was innocently done or with incomplete information. I also think it is part of belonging to a group like GGWO, where being spiritually "off" is a very bad thing indeed. If you constantly use the jargon "God led me", then it shows how much in tune with God you are. After all, in GGWO (and other similar groups), being visibly in touch with God at all times is the mark of having a "vertical" relationship.

I've heard and read the "God/Holy Spirit led me" line used for stuff as mundane as what hairstyle to wear. To me, it's a way to "out-Jesus" others by outwardly SHOWing that every facet of your life is under Godly control, even when it isn't. I purposely capitalized "SHOW", because that's what it is to me.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Sorry about the multiple posts, I'm not as good at it as I once was.

[isabella (isabella)]

Hi Boss...glad you're here.

I actually steal Splenor Packets from DD's.

God told me not to, but then again, I don't like Sweet'N Low...so here I am...

I do sleep on the wrong side of the bed though, which is the side God told me to sleep on. It was a REVA-REMA!

Boss, don't be so serious. There's a lot more going wrong than TBS/GGWO...and the LTM who are in control have a REVA-REMA coming their way.

May God help them in their misery...excuse me... <font size="-2">ministry</font>

My love to you, Boss.
Isabella

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Maybe we think were walking in the Spirit but are not. I mean is there not unity in the Spirit? Yes there is. Is Christ divided? No, so there is unity in the Spirit, but many times the Spirit is doing different things. Does that mean, He, The Holy Spirit is divided? I don't believe so, but wasn't it the same Spirit who led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted, that indwells us. Does that mean He is constantly leading every believer into the wilderness? No. Then again there are other spirits. Seducing spirits. Unclean spirits. Over 2000 in Legion that day as the pigs ran into the sea. Can these spirits possess us? No, can they influence us, Yes. Why all the denominational differences. Because folks are letting different spirits and flesh get in the way. Haven't you ever seen the flesh play like it was walking in the spirit? The flesh can play church real well. Are there different degree's to being spirit filled. Can a person say that he or she is walking in the spirit and yet be running on "E" while another believer can say the exact same thing that they too are walking in the spirit and have just left a 5 day Spiritual Retreat. They have been praying and fasting. Was Peter walking in the spirit when Paul had to rebuke him for his dinner manners. If he was filled with the spirit the same as Paul, then why didn't he discern what he was doing. I believe it has something to do with our sin nature and how much residue we have been exposed to in our daily walk. That's why we need a good foot washing. Then we can all be in the same room, and everyone be of like mind, in ONE accord. Did I just say anything that made sense? I guess you all will let me know. Oh yea, one last thing, we have all of the spirit we are ever going. The Messiah ( the Annointed One ) came and set up residence in us, so maybe it's not how much we have of the spirit, but how much the spirit has of us!! Maybe, just maybe, if the spirit had an equal amount of each one of us, we could all walk in the Unity of the Spirit. I kinda see it like this. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Every temple has let's say 50 rooms to indwell. If the Spirit only indwells 20 of my rooms, but dwells in 40 of your rooms, well yes were both walking in the spirit, but which person is walking moreso in the fullness. The one whom the Spirit possess more of? or should I say, has more influence in? Does anyone understand me? Sometimes, I just have to wonder. Love GTP

[pressing_on1 (pressing_on1)]

OTP,

I am sure you were being lead by God in your decision. When leadership is deceitful it is God they will answer too. We were there by faith, believed in God by faith, and made our decisions by faith.
Everything we do by faith is never a waste.
God has to honor our faith obedience, this is what He desires of us.
I believe the very reason GG continues on today is because there are people there who do love God and don't know all that has taken place behind closed doors. They are there continuing on in the Faith that God has given them. God has to hold true to His word, and He does by caring for them personally.
The leadership "will" answer to God for all that they have done, and for all the lives who are left shipwrecked by the very ones who were suppose to be caring for them. Where is the heart of God in all of this? I can assure you, He was right there all along, but He will never violate our choice, although our choices do contain consequences whether good or bad.

Exodus 33:14, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest. We have to understand that He was and is with us all along, He abides within us, there is no escaping Him, for this I am thankful for it was His promise to us and not our promise to Him.

When we make a decision and we do it by faith, God knows the issue of our heart the moment we do it. If there be any alterior motive, this He knows too. If it be of faith, then He will bless it. If there is some other motive I am sure He has His own special way of dealing with that too. In time He will reveal it.

[lana (lana)]

Our flesh cannot solve our problems. We all have them. His word, and His Peace is there in every situation. Its not easy when we are surrounded on every side with seemingly unsurmontible problems. Thats when the trial of our faith is more precious than gold that perishes. H goes before us and leads us every moment.

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

Welcome back Boss!! Good to hear from you. Very good posts. If so many would truly be led by the Spirit instead of their pastor/teachers guilt trips, they would be so much better off. I wonder how many people who claim they were led by the Spirit to spend years of their lives in GGWO's cult college known as Maryland Bible College and Seminary really were led by God to go there in the first place. Or were some people led there by undue influence by GGWO leaders and others using high pressure tactics etc??? HMMMMMMM.

SIDETHORN

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

Well people bring up some interesting points: sidethorn regarding people "being led" to MBC&amp;S, pressing on regarding the action of faith.

My question is, if we are called by the irresitable grace of God into His family, and are then indwelt with the Holy Spirit, how can we be led into incorrect places? Ok, ok, I get it - we've got a sin nature, but think about it... We've got GOD INSIDE US. How could we be OUT OF HIS WILL for YEARS without even noticing it? Is it because we had Faith? Ok, but does acting in faith cancel out doing something wrong or being in the wrong place? I doubt it.

If God can hold the atoms of the entire universe together, if He can irresitibly call us into the adoption of sons, then why can't He keep us from being in the wrong place? Why aren't we totally uncomfortable being in the wrong place? God is with us, IN OUR VERY BODY, IN OUR VERY SPACE/TIME LOCATION. How can He let us be led astray?

I'm not questioning God here, I'm asking about the impossibility of God being thwarted.

otp

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

I don't have the answers but I do have a few questions.

If you are doing something wrong based on faith, isn't it still wrong? I think just about anyone who sat in a pew at GGWO was/is doing it based on faith. I don't think that very many people at GGWO said "I think I'll go engage in some pastor worship, believe outright lies, or mark someone because I know it's wrong." No, they believed or believe they're doing the right thing. That's part of my point. Just say "I was led by the Holy Spirit, it must be right" and all responsibility is removed. So we have people still at Moravia Park Drive that are firmly convinced that worshipping Carl Stevens as God's Annointed is the right thing because they're "led by the Holy Spirit". Take that idea to an extreme and you have the woman in Texas that killed all her children because God told her to do it. Was she acting on faith? She thought she was. My question is, how do you know the difference? Ask anyone still at GGWO and unless they're there because of a loved one still in, they'll all tell you they are there because of faith and being led by the Holy Spirit.

Do anyone know for sure that they are being led by the Holy Spirit every time they claim to be? I am not being sarcastic in the least when I say that I have heard and read on this very forum about people claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit for something as mundane as what to eat for lunch. My belief is that God created us, gave us free will, varying measures of common sense, and the ability to discern. I cannot know for sure, but I am pretty skeptical when someone tells me that their every action and thought is led by the Holy Spirit. If that were the case, then no one would ever sin! I don't know for certain, but my "faith" is that God gave us a brain and expects us to use it. To ascribe being led by the Holy Spirit to every action and thought we have is shirking responsibility IMO. I may be wrong, but I just don't think that it works that way. At least I haven't seen any evidence in myself or others.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

I think that hyper-spirituality is one of the reasons that GGWO is what it is. EVERYTHING in GGWO-land is an act of God. From what I can see, if someone made a decsion and just said "yep, I thought about it, and I bought the Camaro", there would be some furrowed brows. My feeling from reading here and talking to MANY former (and a couple of current ones) is that being led by the Holy Spirit was EXPECTED at ALL TIMES. So even if you decided to have a Big Mac on your own, in order to fit in and show that you have a "vertical", you automatically say "I was led by the Holy Spirit to reject the Whopper".

I think it must be very hard for people to say, after all the "being led", words of knowledge, and remas, that "I may have made a mistake in coming here. Maybe I wasn't led by the Holy Spirit. Maybe I was lied to."

It's hard enough to say "I was wrong" when you're explaining why you thought getting a life sized bust of Sitting Bull tattooed on your chest was a great idea in college. It's really hard to take an objective look at your life.

[logic_al (logic_al)]

I have seen where members may be required to pay or donate to post on factnet soon. Thats fine, but I do feel they should update the software to a more suitable and reliable forum discusiion portal.

I just recently came across this site that has now rebuilt and started a new discussion board that has good features like avatars, shout box, who is online etc etc

I know its a free plug but it may be worth a look.

www.cultbusters.com.au (http://www.cultbusters.com.au)

al

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Boss, what you wrote was some good stuff. I don't know if what i wrote made sense or not, so let's try this. How do I know if I'm walking in the fullness of the spirit? Doesn't it all break down to how much influence the Holy Spirit has upon me and my actions? I don't see it any other way. If anyone would like to shed some light on this, please enlighten me!!! GTP

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Ephesians 4:3

Ver. 3. Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit,.... That is, a spiritual union: there is an union between God and his people, and between Christ and his members, and between saints and saints, and the bond of each union is love; and that it is which knits and cements them together; and it is the last of these which is here intended: the saints are united under one head, and are members of one and the same body, and should be of the same mind and judgment, and of one accord, heart, and affection: and this may be called "the unity of the Spirit"; because it is an union of spirits, of the spirits or souls of men; and that in spiritual affairs, in the spiritual exercises of religion; and it is effected by the Spirit of God, by whom they are baptized into one body. Now to endeavour or study to keep and preserve this, supposes that this union does already exist; that it is very valuable, as making much for the glory of God, the mutual comfort and delight of saints, and is worth taking some pains about; and that it is very difficult to secure, there being so many things which frequently arise, and break in upon it, through the devices of Satan, and the corruptions of men's hearts: but though it is difficult, and may sometimes seem to be impossible, yet it becomes the saints to be diligent in the use of means to keep it up, and continue it; and which they may be said to endeavour after, when they abide with one another, and do not forsake each other upon every occasion; when they perform all offices of love to one another, and stir up each other to the like: and the way and manner in which this is to be kept, is

John Gill/ www.freegrace.net (http://www.freegrace.net)

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

in the bond of peace: the Arabic version reads, "by the bond of love and peace": by maintaining peace among themselves, and seeking those things which tend to, and make for peace, and spiritual edification; and which is called a bond, in allusion to the Greek word used, which comes from one that signifies to knit, join, and bind together, and because it is of a knitting and uniting nature. Now so to act is to walk worthy of calling grace, or agreeably to it: peace is what the saints are called unto in the effectual calling: and what is suitable to God, who is the God of peace; and to Christ, who is the Prince of peace; and to the Holy Spirit, whose fruit is peace; and to the Gospel, which is the Gospel of peace; and to the character which the saints bear, which is that of sons of peace.

Thought Old John had much insight on this question: any comments????

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Good stuff Boss Martian!

I appreciate what you are saying about taking responsibility for our lives. I know as a zealous teenage Christian I chose deception under the guise of being a spiritually superior Christian when I joined TBS. It must be so difficult for those who have spent most of their lives in this cult to admit they spent their time deceived in a mind control cult. The beauty of Christ's redemption in my life is how He has sustained me in spite of the many poor choices I have made.

[aurora (aurora)]

"The beauty of Christ's redemption in my life is how He has sustained me in spite of the many poor choices I have made."

So true for me, too, Louise.

[pressing_on1 (pressing_on1)]

OTP and Boss, you have raised very good questions, I'm sure some of which we will never know the answer.
This is why it is called Faith, for it is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11: Here we see all these men of God who made decisions by faith.

By faith Able offered a more excellent sacrifice, and by it he being dead yet still speaks. (Interesting no great work, just "one" sacrifice by faith, and he being dead yet still speaks)

By Faith Noah, being warned of God of things not yet seen , moved with fear in building the ark.

By Faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place where he knew not where he was going, yet obeyed.

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded by them, and embraced them, and confessed they were strangers and pilgrims on this earth.
And truly if they had been mindful of that country from which they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But they desired a better country, one that is heavenly.

[pressing_on1 (pressing_on1)]

The whole journey of faith is incredible and can't really be described in words. For one it may be that God has lead them to stay in a place to take part in His work to transform the people, to another it may be going to a village where men have never heard of God, and yet another perhaps a great sacrifice beyond his own comprehension.

Yet they all involve faith, whether it be faith obedience and or sacrifice.

Not every decision we make will be of faith, like Boss’s whopper example.

I believe the more we get to know God, the more we began to know His heart and in doing so many times know just what it is He would like for us to do.
Though we may not choose that, for the sacrifice may seem to big at the time. But a far greater blessing awaits when we do make those decisions.

By Faith, I or we left GGWO not knowing how it would turn out, but we knew we had to. For it is said no where in scripture that we must remain under unhealthy leadership or in an unhealthy church.

I for one can say the decision has drawn me much closer to Christ. He is so much more personal to me than I ever viewed Him before.
Was it a great sacrifice, yes GGWO was all I ever knew for over 20 years, it was my comfort zone, so to speak..

[pressing_on1 (pressing_on1)]

A verse I really love is Hebrews 11:27- By faith Moses forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king, for he endured as seeing he who is invisible. He esteemed the reproach of Christ greater than the riches and treasures in Egypt.

OTP’s I liked your comment: “does acting in faith cancel out doing something wrong or being in the wrong place? I doubt it”.

I would have to say that most decisions we make, we probably make by faith. Hoping that those decisions were what God wanted us to make.

Some of them end up as a dead end, or failure, but failure in itself is not an end , it is the means of a lesson hopefully well learned.

If it caused us to grow than I cannot say it was a waste.

By faith we continue on. Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who "for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross".

What was the joy set before Him? It was our redemption, the redemption of man.

Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, follow peace with all men, looking diligently least any man fail the grace of God; least any root of bitterness springing up trouble us, and thereby defile us.

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

Pressing On:

I'm so glad you're out of GGWO and closer to Christ. As you seek Him directly instead of through a GGWO pastor/teacher, you'll get to know His voice better and better and being led by the Spirit will become easier too. True we all make mistakes and sometimes think we're being led by God when we're not. But God forgives all that and turn it into a learning tool and other good. Praise Him forevermore.

Leaving the 'comfort zone' of groups like GGWO is never easy, but so much more worth it in the long run. One can get to know Christ so much better and have more of that abundant life that He has for us. No need for a meddling, controlling GGWO pastor/teacher trying to act as a susbstitute for God's leading. No need for someone like that telling you its God's geographical will for you to stay under his thumb for life. Enjoying Christ directly is so much better. A real pastor would want to help people grow in Christ with direct relationships instead of trying to be some kind of go-between between them and Christ.

[escaped (escaped)]

Being Spirit Lead is what did happen, but what was happening was that many were being strangled slowly and didn't even know it. I think we were all spirit lead to some degree, but after awhile it became pulpit lead. That is where we got fooled. But praise God that we are out and about and Lead of Him again. Its a growing process that we all went through, and had to to experience Him in His Fullness.

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

God wanted to do something really big through GGWO but the leaders there didn't want God's program. They wanted Carl's! We all know where that led. God's giving GGWO a little more time to get with the program (God's). Hope they get with it before God closes them down.

You're right, it was a growing process. We have to just go on with Christ and be led by Him, not men. Men can never take the place of God's voice in our hearts. Any church that is worth anything will always respect this.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

I still think that if EVERYTHING you do is supposedly Holy Spirit-led (which I do not believe, otherwise, there would be no sin), then you have no room to recognise and admit error, which I believe are the first steps to CORRECTING error.

If I do something and tell everyone that I was led by the Holy Spirit to do so and it turns out wrong, I have a few options. I could blaspheme and say the Holy Spirit was wrong. I could also say that I wasn't really led by the Holy Spirit to begin with, which, to many, is almost as bad as my first option. Or I could ignore the warning signs and continue to engage in or ignore bad behavior and say "I was led by the Holy Spirit, nothing is wrong."

I think this is a very similar situation to the "touch not mine annointed"/God's Man scenario. No one would speak against Carl for decades (some to this very day) because Carl was GOD'S MAN, and if you speak against GOD'S MAN, you're speaking against God Himself. Many can see that Carl is NOT GOD'S MAN after all, but it is certainly a sizable part of why he was so successful all these years.

To fit into GGWO (and many other churches), everyone MUST be "led by the Holy Spirit" in all they do, regardless of whether the Holy Spirit is involved at all. It's the jargon of the group, just like "being decieved", "theantric action", etc. In conversations and reading here, it is common to say "I was led to do this", no matter what it is, or ask someone to do something "if you're led". It's a common phrase. Do you really mean to ask if someone is led by the Holy Spirit to fax some saved threads to someone else? Don't misunderstand me, God can do anything, but is every decision, every thought, every action dependent on being led by the Holy Spirit? I don't see it, but if so, you'd better put your rose-colored glasses on because EVERYTHING is perfect!

I think that's why so many people stayed, regardless of what they saw or heard. "I was led by the Holy Spirit, it must be good!"

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Amen Boss man...amen!

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

"I still think that if EVERYTHING you do is supposedly Holy Spirit-led (which I do not believe, otherwise, there would be no sin), then you have no room to recognise and admit error, which I believe are the first steps to CORRECTING error."

I TOTALLY agree with you Boss. Same goes with the whole 'doing this or that in God's name' conversation. No wonder people are truned off to Christ. It's a shame really....no of us seem to get Him right....is He or isn't He all in all? And if He is, then how the hell are things so shlocked up? Sounds like a time for RE-SPONS-IBILI-TY (as in people taking thier own)!

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

Is it not curious that our primary view of man seems to be taken from those few moments just after Adam ate the deceptive fruit . . . just after having taken and received into himself THE LIE that he could manage, in their proper proportions, good and evil?

Oh, but there’s our man. And even though we see him there crouched behind a makeshift fig leaf, his shame and exaggerated self-consciousness emerging in exact proportion to the glory of the presence he is at that moment LOSING (nakedness indeed!), we dare not let that obscure our view of this god-like creature’s POWER TO CHOOSE. For, had he only aimed that mighty will in the direction it was supposed to . . . well, think of the possibilities! If we could be sent back to just those few moments before that tragic choice was made, yes . . . and we see mighty Adam, the Head of our race, standing between the two trees there in the center of that grand garden looking first to the one tree and then—but no. It isn’t that at all. In fact he seems only to be paying attention to one of the trees, the one . . . called Knowledge. In truth, he appears utterly enamored with it. But wait. His choice. How will he choose if he cannot even seem to survey that there ARE two possibilities? How will he flex now that mighty, God-given faculty, that arbiter of destiny, if he only SEES one tree? Wait. Something’s happening. I see him . . . he’s . . . flexing—good, that means he’s getting ready to choose now, so he must know there is more than one way, that he CAN go the way he’s supposed to . . . if he only WILL. But wait . . . shouldn’t he . . . If he’s really going to choose, shouldn’t he be looking in BOTH directions? Unless . . . unless—oh no. Unless . . . he’s already made his choice. But, if that’s true, then why is he straining so? If he’s already made up his mind, then why do the muscles in his neck look as if they could snap? Adam, look round you. Look the other way! Oh. I see. My Lord—I see. My God, how could I be so blind? He thinks he IS choosing . . . the right way. See the strain. It makes so much sense now. He’s trying to choose . . . THE GOOD. Adam is trying to choose the knowledge . . . to do good. And not do . . . evil. But I can see, it’s hopeless. It’s so obvious now. No will, no matter how strong, could ever choose one without also indirectly choosing the other . . . FOR THEY ARE FROM THE SAME TREE!

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

Is it not curious that we see the Garden of Eden—and our own lives—in just such a way? As this neutral place between two trees, two poles, two choices, and ourselves free as autonomous beings to take this faculty of choice, with all strength of resolve . . . and AIM! But what, indeed, will we hit?

''The way of man is not IN himself. It is not IN man, who walks, to direct his own steps.''

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

In too many churches...

The words of the pastor are automatically the words of God Himself.

Believing the pastor is believing God.

Kissing up to the pastor is submission to God.

Sacrificing one's personal life, family, friends, and loved ones for the whims of the pastor is sacrificing for God.

Putting the pastor ahead of your own family is putting God first in your life.

Listening to the pastor's every word and following them is being led by God.

Questioning the pastor is questioning God.

Thinking for oneself is rebellion against God.

Voicing disagreement and concerns about the pastor is speaking against God.

Pastor thinks God will punish everyone who voices any disagreement with him.

God is always on the pastor's side, so side with the pastor and your one God's side.

Pastor is always right and those who disagree with him are always wrong.

Be something your not and conform your way into the pastor's little clique and you're drawing closer to God.

Being yourself is rebellious and not being Christlike. Being Christlike is being like the pastor and his favorite groupies.

Putting your own conscience above the pastor is putting your own will above God's.

Leaving the pastor and his church is leaving God's 'geographical' will for your life.


As far as many of these churches are concerned, leaving them is the first step in being led by God. Better churches are out there. If your church has the above characteristics, seek God yourself and let Him lead you to a better place to worship and fellowship. God gladly will!!!

[revivalist (revivalist)]

Luke4:1 Luke21:37-38 Mt26:36-50 a few verses that
show or imply christ being led by HS even into places and circumstances where satan was operating clearly christ led and we are not greator than He

[sidethorn (sidethorn)]

Some have also been led by God to Greater Grace to subvert the cult from within. People actually have been freed from GGWO by God working through heroes inside the cult exposing the false teaching, manipulation and corruption. May God be with them.