Concerning the Spiritual in Art

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Some of you art lovers will recognize the title.

If you must believe that there is such a thing as abstract (which I do not), then abstract art (sometimes called nonrepresentational) is the arrangement of non-existent things, which things imply the existence of other things, which do indeed exist.

God does this sort of thing all the time. Awesome sky on my way home last night. The creation has more meaning to it than we could ever begin to fathom, often expressed in ways we can't decipher. There's more mystery than there is that's intelligible. All things are held together and sustained in Him. There is no meaningless aspect. We may not discern His order, but it is there. Chaos is a lie.

[boddah (boddah)]

to me, an abstract is something that is extremely open to conceptual interpretation-- so much so that people who have the time to work out an interpretative theory have to form little clubs of those who agree with each other. everything is abstract, or nothing is abstract, and we have no universally reliable method of telling which is the case.

as human beings we relate to all phenomena through interpretation. stimulation travels from event through space to the eye to the brain... even hallucinations must come from some neural pathway carved into the brain by physically experienced phenomena. i don't believe that there's any truly nonrepresentational art, because human beings don't have any knowledge that isn't gathered from their surroundings. all creative or innovative concepts are just uncommon interpretations of the same objects and situations everyone sees.

on the other hand, since we all interpret phenomena through the same process and humans are pretty much alone in verbal expression (no offense koko,) we don't have any way of knowing that our perception is at all accurate. UNLESS one assumes that there is a benevolent deity who makes sure we get good information.
barring that, all we have to rely on are clubs of people who loosely agree on an interpretative theory-- these are the subgroups that make up society, and society as a whole exists because we have all agreed that our mode of interpretation is valid.

there may, or may not, be a deeper connection from a person's interpretation to a more definitive "thing," concept or physical. something beyond our world, something outside our vision, something we cannot physically perceive. as you point out, our brains have no means of deciphering that mystery (or, as i think, even determining IF it exists.)
if one says there can be some kind of knowledge intimated to a person by a deity, even that kernel of energy (or whatever) has to come OUT of the person by the means of expression the person has, which is based on physical experience. so, if someone starts saying, doing, creating something completely unintelligible to everyone else who experiences it, and says it's been intimated to him by a deity, no one can tell if it's true, or a deliberate lie, or insanity-- or art.
same with nature. it can be interpreted in so many billions of different ways, as haunting or beautiful or awesome or frightening etc., that only by agreeing with a preexisting theory (in other words, layering one's own intent over the scene) can one feel settled in a single interpretation.

the mystery behind abstract art, and all abstract concepts, is the fact that all individuals have such vastly different reactions to stimuli. some see the diversity and complexity of the world as evidence for a deity. some see it as a great big ridiculous mess. perhaps the greater mystery is how any two people could agree on an interpretation!

[boddah (boddah)]

so i guess what i'm saying is that chaos is either a lie, or we're lying to ourselves by saying that it doesn't exist. the only filter we have is our own perception-- which we are inside, so how can we tell?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

One of Lewis Carroll's better pieces. I've always liked it. I wonder what Freud would have thought of the word 'Bandersnatch'?

I remember reading something that one of Prokofiev's sons said about the way he wrote music. He said something to the effect that his father would write normal music and then 'Prokofievize' it. Perhaps Carroll did something similar with this. A lot of 'almost' words here. There's also the flavor that you find in young children who mispronounce words or use them in very strange ways. In not making direct sense, it can still evoke.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

As a sometimes 'artist' and a basically creative individual, I believe that while I don't always understand where the elements of what I do come from, that they do come from somewhere; and that God knows where and how. I believe that he instigates what we call creativity.

What can frustrate me at times are the rules and schools of thought that people come up with for creative expression; and how they use these rules and formulas to determine what has value and how much. Why is an oil painting considered artistically superior to a watercolor; and what does the length of its existence have to do with the value of art? Are your words of more value if they are preserved in a book? Does that make them more true? If true words are given and then 'lost', are they not still of greater value than false words which are preserved? What value does extended time have over the moment? And do not certain moments have much greater value and influence than others? Think of Esther before the king; a crucial moment she shone in that God has preserved for eternity.

So; if our art or music or words portray things given us by the Spirit of God; then does it really matter if they are designed by Him for a particular moment or to be preserved 'for posterity'? Something right was captured in the phrase that music is the nectar of the gods. It's just that there's only One. And while you're right, Boddah, in saying that we can't know with certainty in a provable way; by faith I know that God knows. He's holding me; not vice-versa.

This brings up another point. It is logically impossible that God exists, or that we do. And yet it is also logically impossible that we don't. Where could God or the first thing come from? And it can't be the illusion thing; because to have an illusion, someone has to exist that has it; and that being would have to come from somewhere. So; we are here; but impossibly so. This is human wisdom; and it's nonsense. All of our sense belongs to God, as do we. Faith is a choice. It's not blind, but we are if we are without it. He gives the scope to our vision, to our understanding. He inwardly defines sense for us through His Spirit. And He within us connects with the Word. That gives us spiritual context. We have a Comforter Who convicts us also. You might say God is odd.

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

So Bob are you saying art mirrors life or life mirrors art?

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Here is some pop art:
Q: Why did the chicken cross the road?
A: Because she knew she would become renowned. (Or, was the rooster after her?) so, I ask again, does art mirror life or life mirror art? hmmm...........

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

If you can receive it, life is a form of art, and we are a form of God's art. And then also, He uses us to create further things. We often get caught up in the vessel, whether ourselves or others; but the glory is God's, and all good things have their origin in Him, even when they come through particularly bad vessels.

As believers we have often refused to acknowledge or appreciate the good things God gives through unbelievers; or perhaps we accept certain things and not others. We tend to downplay the worth of God's image as it is bestowed upon unbelievers. They'll be more likely to come to Christ if we can find ways to connect with them in that. It's perhaps their place of hope. The Spirit's leading is necessary in this.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

About the mirror thing; reflection and all that. I think the lines of influence go both ways; and that todays life can even be greatly influenced by art that is hundreds of years old. To take an example; what we call impressionism still has a profound influence on the way we think and express ourselves today. At the same time, what artists produce is very much influenced by life and what they choose to focus their attention on. I consider that more is gained by direct study of creative works than by study of commentaries or critiques. I believe the same holds true with the Word of God, even though there are measures of understanding which can be gained through study of history and such. Of course, if someone writes out of communion with the Spirit about the Word rather than just from his/her intellectual understanding of it, then there will be more that kind of sense of direct contact. You love the Spirit Dave. You can see this. Different ones of us widen or expand the perspective in different directions or ways. We are each a part of God's portrayal. There is an insane implication that each individual can give a complete portrayal by her/himself. We don't respect the members that differ very widely from us as much as we should. It's not easy; but we're in the process of learning.

[lee (lee)]

Being mainly educated in art school and now as a full time artist, I've found out a few things tht may characterize only myself, but here goes:
I think you'd be hard pressed to find any working artist to say their work is not spiritual in some form. By that I mean, the spirit is apart of us good or bad and that ideally would find its way into the art. Abstract, expressionistic/impressionistic, conceptual etc. Even the so called 'sunday afternoon painters', the hobbyists and the old ladies that take classes and thus help the 'starving artist' live would have, to the discerning eye, a spirit to it. It's just not always as sophisticated or apparant.
There are schools of art that focus on the metaphysical exclusively.
Some schools will focus on the person or some the world in which we live etc.
For me, I can get sidetracked and stop working if I dwell too much on the whys and hows and so on....I do what I do because in a way, 'I have to'. It's me and after so much struggle to accept that, I'm finally doing what God called me to do. Hopefully, the spirit is found in my work.
I do think though, its in the eye of the beholder and right now, I can get angry and dismayed at the lack of art education/appreciation in schools and in homes. I'm happy that my church has accepted artists into their community even though alot of it is done for church growth and/or financial gain. I've found that presently christians have truly enjoyed what we've presented to them.....many were brought to tears when we did a presentation of 'Stations of the Cross'. Visual, dance, music, acting, singing, opera, installation, interactive.....it was all there and people were overwhelmed. We had to turn people away by the hundreds....its exhausting and yet spoke very powerfully. Yet, christians bynlarge do not buy art.
They are missing a great deal. Music seems so much easier than other forms of art, to get people engaged.
An interesting project is to do a self portrait everyday....whether it be with a mirror or from memory....wishful thinking or starkly realistic....it will all tell you something about yourself....and others, if you dare show them. I think its impossible to not see the spirit in it. If you have the Holy Spirit, thats what you'll see, it not...hmmmm!
I will stick my neck out and say that the art world needs some art that is truly spiritual in a holy sense.....and I believe it will come. Whether it will receive an honored place, I'm not sure. So much of it is propaganda and I hate it. A picture of Jesus weeping makes me gag. Thats not to say that representational art is passe'. Also, abstract may or may not have the full impact as one would desire.
I could go on and on but I need to get to work!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Lee, I have bought some art books, and go to museums once in a while. It's unbelievable how much art is available to download online. I've got thousands of works on discs, with some still here. I find that by viewing many different kinds of works from various periods, my capacity to appreciate it has deepened. And I think that just as with listening to music, my ability to express things has grown through it. It gives a sense of proportion and pattern, how emphasis can be exaggerated or subtle. Many different emotions can be expressed so eloquently. And we are to express Christ in many different ways so that different kinds of people in various states of being can see Him clearly from some angle. It's not like I try to hold down understanding or seize it. It's held for me in the Spirit. He takes all this stuff and puts it together in ways that suit Him.

I think the Spirit does come through what you do. I don't think our expressions from Him have to wear Christian labels. And if they don't, they may get places they otherwise wouldn't. I believe in the value of subtlety and implication. Light can be sort of subliminal. It's not meant to deceive, but to prepare the ground. We need to consider spiritual warfare for souls over the long course of time, and not just 'closing the deal.' Some plant, some water, some reap. All these aspects are needed. The inner reality of the Spirit is more important than what can be easily discerned on the surface.

[boddah (boddah)]

so, bob, you're saying we think therefore we must be? how do you know you're thinking? how do you define thought? why can't the thinkers, if they are in fact thinking, be god themselves? assuming we are thinking, how do you know what we are thinking about exists-- does interaction with what we call physical forms necessitate their existence?
i mean, aside from faith.

jim, i'm assuming the jabberwocky quote was intended to mean that a lot of long, possibly new words put together equals nonsense? common view on philosophy. is your education over, then, if you think everything is in the bible and there can be "nothing new under the sun," including meaningful language for new concepts?

i think the life-time, durability, of art is irrelevant. anything, any instant that means "art" to any individual counts. eco-art is really cool, i don't remember the artist offhand but have you seen that guy who made the gigantic spiral in some exposed sand from the bed of a lake (maybe salt lake?) then, as part of the artwork he just waited for the spiral to be covered up again as the lake rose? another artist like that is goldworthy, with the configurations of rocks etc. outside, meant to react to the environment. if we didn't have cameras, writers, or storytelllers to document this stuff, it would just pass away... and that's the whole point! i think that's great. i'm tired of artists being held to this random standard of what is "classic."

like i was saying, though, we generally divide art up into groups for easy discussion, and then the people with similar opinions start to feel loyal to each other and debate others as a group.

also, the human race is obsessed with its own history-- either they make myths that are passed down verbally, or they write history down as they see it, or they commit zeitgeist or event or concept to paper in a shape other than lettering (we generally call this "art.") we don't know our history (again, aside from biblical faith) before it began to be recorded, and that was a long time ago, so people have trouble believing/relating to some early accounts. this makes people nervous, and visual accounts intended to capture that history "existed" make them feel more secure.

gotta get back to cad. will write more later.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah, The point comes down to where things originate. They do; or we wouldn't perceive them, or 'imagine' them. We 'are' or we wouldn't 'experience' anything. There is existence; but WHY, and HOW? God is an answer (by faith); but He's not a humanly logical one. The idea of organized things developing out of nothing is less satisfying intellectually.

[boddah (boddah)]

lee, you said christians don't by and large buy art... i agree there, but have noticed a bit of a thomas kinkade fetish in that corner!

anyway,

all we can do is perceive perception, imagine imagining, speak about language, etc. the only instruments we have to examine our fundamental functions are-- our fundamental functions.
a really good kids' book was recommended to me, called "a hole is to dig." it goes through various "things," which we would think of as objects or events, and says what action each is actually made up of: example, a kitten is to purr, a cake is to taste good, a computer is to crash, etc. this is highly simplified, but a cool concept. each physical form or state, by "a hole is to dig" standards, is really a combination of innumerable actions, of doings, of movements. there are no nouns, only verbs; nouns are a convenience. nouns are really "to verbings." nothing exists, per se, rather, movement moves through various simultaneous actions, one of them being "to seem, to concretize." but who knows how much of which action is occuring at once, how much concretizing vs. how much seeing vs. how much interpreting...

doesn't change the nature of your question of origination.
assuming the to universe is to be linear, to start is to be necessary and to be past. (i'm talking like this to demonstrate, don't normally!) in other words, if we just take our own word for it and say a universe exists, then by our own standards of time passage it must have begun (as you say.)

i think we're too limited in our senses to even have a clue. so, here we think we are, categorizing and interpreting to the best of our ability (we are to categorize, to interpret, to breathe, to type, to blink...)
whether or not we exist is an interesting debate, but the consensus is usually "yes," since we can't really comprehend anything else. some say solid objects, some say states of being, but (probably) everyone sees themselves as "being" somehow. the questions we have to deal with daily are (again, like you say) why and how.

where things originate is a good place to start trying to figure out the why and how, but i don't think that god and nothing are the only options. i don't think we know all the options, or can know them. it's not really a matter of intellect, intellect is only what it can do. faith is only what faith can do. humans are both, in infinitely varying degrees. there could be an entirely different manner of comprehension we haven't gotten to yet, or have dismissed erroneously.

and that's pretty much where we are. we are to confuse, to search-- and do a million other actions in what we call "meantime." we can be to art if we to like! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

ps. if this is annoying anybody, or i'm seeming off topic, let me know. i'm having fun, personally.

[boddah (boddah)]

u2:
don't worry, baby/ it's gonna be all right/ uncertainty can be a guiding light...

u2:
car alarm won't let you back to sleep/ you're kept awake dreaming someone else's dream/ coffee is cold, but it'll get you through/ compromise, that's nothing new to you/ let's see colors that have never been seen/ go to places no one else has been...

also u2:
and i must be an acrobat, to talk like this, and act like that/ and you can dream, so dream out loud/ and don't let the bastards grind you down.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I love U2. Bono is so charismatic, like some kind of off the edge faith healer or evangelist; but with a real and sincere person in there. He's not pretending; and he knows how to get sloshed and have a good time. He likes the little people, and he's not araid of the big ones. He seems really Spirit-oriented, in an almost 'secular' way. I find the musical and emotional and psychological ground between he and Edge to be extremely interesting and kind of magnetic. Bono is an extrovert, and Edge is an introvert. Edge is very controlled and exact. Bono seems spontaneous and almost over the top. They work together so well. And this band has maintained the same personnel since they started back in the 70s. Is there another band that has lasted in the same form for that long? I don't know of any.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

And whether you look at the creation in linear fashion or not; you can't have an effect without a cause. We may be incapable of understanding the link between the two; and it might not appear to be a link even if we saw it.

There is the 'This is my experience, and it works' line. Which brings you to the 'Is it faith working or God?' question. And if it's faith, perhaps it could be the old mind over matter thing (those Indian mystics that bend nails with their minds or sleep on beds of them). Someone will always come up with natural explanations for spiritual or supernatural occurences that can logically seem just as plausible as what you believe.

And then there's also the 'Even if God is there and all-powerful and all that, how do you know for sure that He is good?' You've been deceived before about many things. If people can manipulate you; who could be in a better place to manipulate you than God? Just why is it that we believe when these questions are so evident to anyone who thinks honestly, and long enough?

I can not give your reasons; but I can give my own. Firstly, I cheated. I received Christ when I was four years old. I didn't receive Him because of the threat of hell, but because of His love expressed toward me through His suffering and death on the cross; and the fact that He wanted me to live with Him forever. In my little four year old mind with tears in my eyes, my heart opened up to Him. So, before I was intellectually developed enough to have such questions as those raised above; I already knew Christ and had His Spirit within me. I've been predisposed to believe almost my whole life; because of His Presence. He won't let me go. He's let me sin and wander in many directions and ways; but He always brings me back to Him as my source and life. Where else is worth going when you have the inside track? But one thing that has been learned over the years is that the actual 'track' is not made up of what appears on the surface; the 'trappings' of Christianity. There is not 'secular' and 'sacred'; though we may use the words. Even Stevens has said this. God's reign is meant to encompass everything, and He is everywhere present. What He wants me to do or say is not dictated by the 'Christian norm'. His actions often move into some strange regions. I digress.

Another reason for belief is made up of personal experience with Him; answers to prayer, personal healing in various areas, the understanding that comes during prayer and contemplation and reading the Word, the things He shows me through art and music and interactions with others.

I also see His character worked out toward me through other believers. This is how I feel about my closest spiritual friends: all the crap and hardship and suffering I've personally gone through is worth it to have even one of them. I had my best friend desert me and take up other friends when he ended up going out of town to a Catholic intermediate school. His brother; another reasonably close friend, once left me drunk and unconscious on someone's lawn after I'd thrown up in the back of his car. Over the course of my life, I have not found it easy to get close to others and open up. So; now that I can and have found a few people that really resonate with me spiritually; I am profoundly grateful for them. But the real beauty of this is that our friendships are in Him. He is what they are about. So they bear witness to His reality being worked out between us.

The strongest witness for belief is given to us by Christ's life and death for us. 'The Passion' so well portrayed this. So; in conclusion; if I'm going to believe something (and I do); then I'm choosing Love, as it's been manifested to me. I understand why people doubt and choose otherwise; but it doesn't really come down to logic. It's receiving or turning away a personal invitation from a loving God - take it or leave it.

[lee (lee)]

Boddah.....I thought about writing about Tom Kincaide but couldn't bear to type his name......I cringe to even think about his stuff.....he's an opportunist that has manipulated with great control, the very thing the impressionists gave us so freely! Light! Bringing our attention to its illuminating powers. His stuff is so pretty and cloying I feel like I get stuck in fly paper by looking at it.....sorry to all that love his work.....I give a very wide berth to alot of stuff but have a really hard time with his. I'd rather have a painting by a blue haired old lady that did it with no self consciousness than something so manufactured.......aaggh.
I usually have more constraint but Boddah dear, you have a way of getting right to the core! Thanks, but I'm sorry if some here really like his stuff and think its really representational of whats good.
I'd better stop now.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Thomas Kincaide's stuff belongs in the Dollar Store.... right next to the cheap ceramics!

[lee (lee)]

I know Kincaide is a christian and I know the gimmick of the highlights and I know the trick with the turning off of the lights......God is far more creative....Bob is right. The truly wondorous creations are often abstract and found by looking beyond our neatly controlled world....there's so much to see. It's right in front of us.
I have a dear friend that hs been painting vessels for years....clam shells, boat hulls, urns etc....they never get stale....I guess its the difference between a true anointing and a fake one.
No one should think I've arrived at a high and lofty place with my own work.....I could supply a museum with very bad paintings! It's a life long work to paint something pure.

[boddah (boddah)]

bob-
no bands that long lasting who have kept a) their innocence and b) cutting edge. all i could come up with were aerosmith, rem (but only kind of,) and david bowie/ madonna/ neil young/ eric clapton, people like that (but they're not bands.)
so, i can only to come to the conclusion that u2 is, as i suspected, the best band in the world and will never, ever go away because they know it would upset me greatly.
that'll work.

lee and jeannie-
oh yeah, i was in a mall in ohio a while ago, and happened upon a thomas kinkade store, a whole store full of that guy's stuff. asked dan, well, should we just hold our breath and check it out for a laugh? we went in and, i swear, there were a man and a woman standing behind a glossy counter with their eyebrows raised, and the interior of the store was covered in black velvet (i assume to show off the "light" by which he butters his bread.) we knew we were in over our heads, but wandered hypnotized to the rear of the store, and were promptly cornered there by the saleswoman weilding a pile of brochures. she was practically evangelical. it took about twenty minutes to inch back to the mall corridor.

[boddah (boddah)]

oh yeah, i wondered bob, have you ever read a u2 bio? there was a time around the october/ war era when the band very very nearly broke up because everyone but adam clayton joined up with this religious group that met in some kind of trailer by the river, and they decided rock wasn't godly. bono in particular was susceptible to them since he was still worked up about his mother's death.
as you may have noticed, they left and made up with adam. but they did retain a lot of references to god/jesus/the spirit/ etc. since bono and edge write the lyrics. i always notice it. first it was truly preachy, then during achtung baby/ zooropa/ pop mart the references would sometimes be negative (acrobat) and sometimes not (mysterious ways.) now they sound mature, sorrowful (heaven on earth) and/or transformed into some kind of beautiful poetic equivalency of god and the female (grace.) they've tended to either refer to god as she, or endow god with qualities they associate with women, achtung baby (unless they were talking about violence.) i know it's not fair to speak about god in female terms any more than it is to speak of god in male terms, but i have to admit it's at least refreshing, and the patriarchal system is not likely to reverse itself in a new horror of misandry. if the trend gets out of control i'll stop enjoying it, i promise.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

It is also the Irish in them. The sons tend to be matriarchal.. "tis herself" and not "himself" that are the backbone of the Irish family.

[boddah (boddah)]

i don't think you can definitively say there can't be an effect without a cause, except as far as the current apparent physics of planet earth are concerned. true, in this life, there may be links we don't see. but overall, since i wasn't there and have no way of conceptualizing what might have been, i don't know what was before the history we try to discern from geology etc.

as far as god being benevolent or not, there's a funny line by woody allen: "if there is a god, i don't think he's evil. i think the worst you can say is he's an underachiever." this is a joke, but the subject has been tackled by a whole lot of really dedicated people who gave up or just fought with one another till they died. or accepted that there was a god on their deathbeds, a perennial favorite ending. that one's going to have to remain theoretical, i think.

as far as your personal reasons for faith, stick to 'em (like i have to tell you) because that's a comfortable base you have to start from that i personally lack. my dad has a similar anecdote to yours: he was raised very happy in the church of christ, and when he was seven the pastor gave an altar call for anyone who felt called to be a missionary. he went up, and that was his dream from then on; when we got to the mission field he was practically seven again (in a good way!)

me, i also remember accepting jesus at a very young age. but always i thought, this is what my mommy and daddy want for me, and they know what they're doing. i was never sure of what they were really talking about, even though both have extensive experience talking to children-- so it couldn't have been that the explanation was too cerebral for me at that age. so, i accepted it for all intents and purposes, namely so satan would see me and *think* i was saved so he'd leave me alone. but it was always on a nervous back burner in my mind.
two things in my childhood stick out in my memory, because i specifically instructed myself when they happened never to forget them when i got older.
the first was in second grade, in lenox. i was sitting in sunday school and the teacher was talking about asking jesus into your heart. everyone's heads were on the desks, there were bus ministry kids there who were crying (it had been a particularly moving lesson, about love not sin.) i thought to myself, all right, now you're going to do this on the record, so you don't have to worry about whether you're lying to your parents or not. remember this, this is the last time you're going to have to think about it. and i raised my hand with the other kids who got saved. i did reconsider many times, with many different results, once i became intellectually interested in the question. boy, was i conflicted. but before that, it was very nice when i was seized with fear or self-loathing to be able to point to that sunday and say, so there.
the second thing i told myself never to forget was, your childhood is not as good as you're going to think it was when you get older. all these grownups kept saying they wished they were my age, the freedom, the lack of hardship and concern... and i thought they were insane.

i did have what i would consider personal experience with something spiritual while overseas, but i still can't tell if it was the people in the room or something else creating the vibe. i feel like a traitor, because some of the most wonderful people i know were in that room and they'd all swear it was god. again, like when i was so little, i'm just not sure even though i'd like to be. so i've got it simmering away in my head. i used to be told by a lot of people that i shone with god's light, that i was a good witness, that i was so evidently a pure lamb of god. again, didn't believe them. i believed that was what they were seeing, but i didn't trust them to interpret it, necessarily. i still took it as a compliment.

you're absolutely right about the trappings of christianity having nothing to do with the reality of god to genuine believers. another thing that stuck from my childhood is "all things are pure to the pure." that saying always helped me balance on the line between "secular" and "sacred," although ggwo tipped me a little more toward valuing only the "sacred." i may be compensating for that now.
i remember trying to explain to twenty peace studies students and an iroquois guest speaker that not all the christian missionaries who came to the new world and caused problems for indigenous ways of life were bad-- that some of them loved and were truly concerned for the souls of the native americans, and their intentions should be considered as well as their effects.

last note: i was talking to my friend's boyfriend through email a while ago. he's similar to me in temperament; a philosophy/religion major; suffers from depression and is often suicidal. he wanted to be a catholic priest for a long time, erase the injustice in the religion and everything-- then it turned out he was gay. when he came of age and realized his sexual preference, he became both guilty and outraged, and dismissed every piece of religious knowledge he'd ever had as hogwash meant to hurt him.
we were both going through a particularly rough patch, and he was trying his hardest to stay afloat by telling me how it was his right to choose how to live his life, with the acknowledgement of love and god, as opposed to accepting what he actually thought was reality: a howling wilderness of nothing. (again, i don't think those are the only options.) i wanted so much to tell him it would be ok, but i couldn't, i just can't do it without knowing.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I've read a couple of books on U2, the better one had a cover with orange on it. I remember reading about them hanging out in Tokyo. I vaguely remember what you wrote about. The other three learned to live in mutual respect with Adam. It actually wouldn't surprize me if he were a Christian as well, with them all keeping it from being known; but who knows? I really like Bono; and I like the fact that it was a believer who got the nuts sending out all those emails about the FCC, because he used 'The F Word'. What a buncha maroons.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Ah, Boddah. As a mystic, of sorts, I can empathise partly with you postmoderns. But I feel that every effect has some cause; though we may not be able to detect it. I realize that this is cold science in the face of bipolar-type romanticism; and perhaps should just be thrown out the proverbial window; but I feel the need for some kind of order, even if undetectable and only implied. But I do appreciate your ability to skate a little further out than me. Eternity will tell, as they would say if they thought a bit more carefully about what they're saying.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Lee; I sort of have mixed feelings about Kinkaide. It is a bit too pretty and too formulated for me; but I am attracted by much of the imagery nonetheless. That said; what really gets me is stuff like Kandinsky and Cezanne and Renoir and hordes of others. And I kind of like art that makes me feel unsettled or even uncomfortable. Like Van Gogh or Munch. Something in me wants to be stirred and provoked. I find something similar in the types of issues Karen tends to raise in her posts. I want to face and consider difficult and unsettling things. I sense there's value and progress in the Spirit to be found there; if He chooses to give it to us.

My favorite Kandinsky is the early stuff with those incredibly intense colors; rather than the more 'intellectual' type stuff that's less emotional later on. Color does something for my heart. But with Kandinsky, it's something other than 'pretty' as with Kinkaide. He brings us to other places. Being an alien in this world, I feel need of other places.

[boddah (boddah)]

assuming there's "eternity," and we're not on some kind of closed loop, or somehow moving backward... but then you're in star trek territory. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

the only u2 bio i have, the best i've seen by far, is little and blue w/ a picture from the joshua tree liner jacket-- called "the unforgettable fire." very thorough and well-written, if plain. not so much about the vivid graphics and cool fonts. is your orange one "into the heart?" that's the one that supposedly gives the history behind their lyrics, but once you've read "un. fire" (or, as my friend and i used to call it, the "nugetorfbatle rife" -we were strange that way) it doesn't seem like enough information.

ach, the censorship of a few little words to "protect the family." where's george carlin when you need him?

FYI, new u2 album "how to disarm and atomic bomb" comes out the 23rd, and they're on sat. night live tomorrow.

one topic that hasn't been discussed in philosophical or spiritual terms here is movies. how do you feel about vampire movies? (but feel free to add your own genre.)
i feel a strong connection to vampire movies, especially bram stoker's by coppola. i'm not sure what the draw is exactly, i don't go to the blood clubs and all that, but somehow they resonate with a truth inside me. you know, i think they seem like very sad, misunderstood angels. displaced, hungry souls, who occasionally lash out in revenge. then there's the cold side, the side that's been dead for so long it can't relate to emotion anymore.
in therapy i've tended to describe ggwo and occasionally myself in vampiric terms...
did you see "mystic river?" if so, remember when tim robbins' character, the one who had been kidnapped as a child, is wigging out in the living room when his wife comes home convinced that he killed his friend's little boy? tim robbins is sitting next to the window talking about being lost far in the woods and chased by vampires. granted as a kid he was literally lost in the woods and being pursued by his kidnappers, but i've said almost exactly the same words he used-- almost verbatim-- to describe how i've felt at times. it was pretty freaky to see.

and yes, there's a u2 lyric for this one too.
(stay, faraway so close)
"red light, grey morning/ you stumble out of a hole in the ground/ a vampire or a victim, it depends on who's around..."

[boddah (boddah)]

oh hey, do you know the sculptor/ performance artist joseph beuys??
if you like fascinating, often disturbing art, he's your man. one of my favorites. survived some kind of trauma in ww2, then made sculpture out of sleighs and bandages and lard. also, did a piece in which he carried a dead rabbit around and explained various paintings to it, as a commentary on how little art is understood and how useless it is to explain it.

i totally agree with you about early kandinsky. i don't know what he saw in those trees that led him on to paint the ultimate geometry, but i didn't see it. i was happy with the trees. same with van gogh, i prefer his earlier paintings of simple people and fields and especially the tattered work boots-- if i had to own a van gogh i'd want one of those rather than starry night or some such.
what do you think of mark rothko? he's pretty much straight up about color. each one is different, though...

one "colorful" guy i can't abide is gauguin. i think he was very rude to his wife and children for some very selfish and misguided reasons. i bristle every time i see one of is paintings, even if visually it's ok. nothing so special that i can overlook his behavior, though.

i also love jacob lawrence.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Oh woman, you go so many places... Let's see. I like the vampyre movie you mention with that outrageous actor who was in 'The Fifth Element'. I also like the one with Tom Cruise and Banderas based on the Rice book...Invitation to a Vampire, I think. The first time I saw that scene in the theatre where the girl ends up getting devoured I was shocked. It was the best combination of the erotic and fear that I'd ever seen; not that I go hunting for such things.

Don't know 'Mystic River.' Or Joseph Beuys. Sounds interesting, though. I don't recall liking Rothko. I don't think he was complex enough for me. I pretty much like all of Van Gogh. I enjoy his uneasiness with normality, his fear of himself while enjoying himself at the same time. I like some of Gauguin, while finding much of him boring. I don't recall Jacob Lawrence at all.

How about Roberto Matta, or Pollock, or Nancy Graves, or Joan Mitchell? There are seeming hoards of what I consider great artists; not always those who've drawn the most attention. I'll go do a search on Lawrence, but am soon off to the sack.

[boddah (boddah)]

oops, in my excitement i mixed up mondrian (trees and ultimate geometry) with kandinsky. but same goes for kandinsky, his earlier stuff is much softer.

rothkos are really only what you bring to them. you've really got to have a day when something's all up in your head, then they're great sort of ephiphany machines. but if you go expecting to be taught, forget it.

i do like jackson pollock, although really his wife lee krasner's work is more my style. and again, i like his earlier more representational stuff, but the splatters are of course genius, blah blah blah (but it's true.)
i was in the hamptons this august for my friend's wedding, and when i wasn't being dragged around miserably rehearsing for the big day, i got to visit jackson pollock and lee krasner's house... i took a lot of great pictures, including one of their clean white bathroom shelves full of old bottles, as reflected in their bathroom mirror-- and the picture is now in my bathroom next to my mirror. yes, it feels like i'm down the rabbit hole.
they don't allow photography in his studio, for the same reason they make you wear those little foam slippers... his splatters are still all over the floor and they don't want any of it disturbed. house simple and full of strange little art objects (and some huge ones.) that place, where i was for like two hours out of a four day trip, was the whole vacation.

i know what you mean about gauguin being boring. i kinda think all his women's faces look alike, and for sure he was like a broken record with the native maidens (salmon and teal!) toward the end there. ach, and with the whole native madonna imagery.

this is a different medium, but unease with the normal combined with strangely sensuous imagery: nine inch nails' "perfect drug" video. like poe meets colette; like wind in your face and blue silk like water.

the fifth element guy is gary oldman, who played The Man Himself, right? for me, that movie is the most erotic. recently got into a "best love scene" debate: the one in empire strikes back when han is lowered into the carbonite, and leia says "i love you" and he responds "i know" (did you know that line was ad libbed?) versus the one in bram stoker's when dracula visits minna in the asylum and as she's about to drink his blood he says no, he can't condemn her to that life, and she says "take me away from all this death!" and drinks it anyway. in the simple white nightgown in this sort of twisted genuflection, drinking from a slice on his chest, and he's pleased but saddened, and there's the caress that no one could understand...it's evident that he's so grateful that she loves him, and that she's a different, wilder person in his presence... yeah, so i was on the bram stoker's side of the debate.
i liked interview with the vampire, the movie but not the book (anne rice bugs me.) the movie was quite good, i remember the theatre scene. my favorite scene was when the woman and the little girl turned to ash in the well. nice to have a totally different set of rules for vampires once in a while, the traditional ones get old. "blade," for instance-- not nearly as good a film but a pretty good mythology.
oh, a really good but hard to find vampire movie (like your olde spelling, by the way) is " the hunger," with david bowie and susan sarandon.

i also am off to bed soon but will look up matta, graves and mitchell. don't know them, or am too tired to remember.

do you like claes oldenburg?

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I don't know Claes Oldenburg. Oldman was Dracula. I liked the crazy guy in the cell eating spiders. Oh, Brad Pitt was in Interview also, which made me think of the twelve monkies movie with Willis, which brings us back to Fifth Element. Some time after I'd seen monkies repeatedly and enjoyed Pitt's character enormously, my brother gave me a copy of Apocolypse Now. There's a character played by Dennis Hopper that has a lot of the litttle finger movements and mannerisms that Pitt used in Monkies.

I've seen Hunger. I've never read Rice, though my son has. It doesn't surprize me to hear that Harrison Ford adlibbed in that scene. He strikes me as the type who would. I think a lot of that goes on with people like Jack Nicholson and Robin Williams. There probably are directors who encourage it. A further back actor that I was interested in for a long time is Charles Laughton. It seemed that in every movie he did, there'd be at least one scene in which he'd just totally capture the part he played, as if he became the character. But he didn't hold up like that over the whole course of things. But I value moments and parts of things. I can enjoy one part of a painting immensely, while other parts don't interest me at all. It's like something 'real' broke through the artifice; something truly creative or haunting or evocative.

Thinking in terms of the Body of Christ, as members, this bit of light coming through from the midst of other stuff that's not light seems to be a spiritual principle. We know in part. I know even in smaller part. Taken together, maybe we'll see more; like pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. I am given part of the picture; not the whole. I need to hold onto my part in face of whatever the opposition might be, because it has bearing on people being able to see the whole; or a larger part of it. When the right parts are placed side by side, then you find a larger degree of the sense of the whole picture. God arranges the pieces as it pleases Him.

There was some comment that Jackson Pollock once made about accident. I believe it was to the effect that he didn't 'use' the accident; that he didn't even believe in it. I have a couple of biographies of him which I've never gotten to. They say he had more control over what he was doing with paint with the methods he used than other artists had with a brush. Have you ever worked with brushes? It's not like using something with a hard point. Some thought Pollock was just using chance to produce his work; but he was very deliberate.

I had an argument with my father once about Kandinsky that was much along these kinds of lines. He thought anybody could do that. I thought he was nuts. Some people just don't understand that there are other, less openly tangible things to reach for. I think 'abstract' art is very similar to speaking in tongues.

To move in that direction, but in a different place; speaking 'prophetically' is similar to this. Jesus spoke about the Spirit giving us words to say, placing them in our mouths. The context He put it in was with us being before rulers or magistrates; but I think the principle is the same when it is given for personal ministry. I believe the Old Testament prophets had a similar experience. The postmodern thinkers should emotionally and psychologically relate to this. It's a gift fashioned by an outside source with exactness beyond your comprehension for the moment you're in. As you receive or let it out, it resonates with the Spirit within you. It may be intended for some future moment or situation, and you may not understand or need it till then. It might even be for you to pass on to someone else you haven't even met yet, and you may not even realize you are passing anything on when it occurs. He moves in mysterious ways.

As a member of the orchestra, you have sheet music for your own part; not for everyone else. If you look over the shoulder of someone with a different instrument, you may get confused. Interrupting them and saying, 'No,no,no; you've got it all wrong' is not going to help make the music being played come across to the listeners better. The listeners are the world. The music is an invitation for them to join the orchestra.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I come to the discussion late, I realize, but wanted to join.

I am a writer, and find the spiritual in the oddest of places.

I am writing a novel. The plot is not new (there are few new stories to tell of the human experience), but I had to research and choreograph a murder. Never having murdered anyone, I found it a troubling task.

My writing is a way of escape for me, and also a way of exploration. My "MO" is to assume the identity of each character...take on their mind set, history, reasoning, viewpoint, and emotions to determine just how the story will unflod. It is an exciting process that has helped me with interpersonal relayionships as well...the empathy quotient, I call it.

But roaming about in the mind of an evil and murderous man was a challenge I wasn't prepared for. The journey brought me to many disturbing realms and did in the long run assist me in finding his rage, his inner murderous self, and in the process the spirit of mankind as a whole.

I cannot fully describe the depth of feeling, the obvious presence of the spirit protecting my own mind as I delved deeper into the confusion of the insane...but it is an exercise that really opened my eyes to so much.

I cannot paint on canvas, or sing, or weave words in to great poetry, but I think the processes I have come to understand about creating new "worlds" has been a benefit to my understanding about creation, life, human beings and God's presence in the lives of others.

[boddah (boddah)]

(i get the sense you're making up for my lapse into poetic language? tend to do that when describing art. it's a reflex.)


interconnectedness, puzzle pieces fitting together. one meets another meets another and the light grows brighter... i believe in that process, even so far as believing interaction with natural elements (trees, rivers etc.) can produce a similar partial enlightenment. more than you had before, not all, but more, and the definite sense that there's a lot more beyond.

when i think that people can't communicate with one another, that we're all trapped in our little boxes alone, i guess what really bothers me is that if we wanted to, we could communicate not only verbally but even without words. not like esp, but just by experiencing each other for a while. for some reason we don't. (fear of the unknown? desire to keep secrets?) it's vexing to me.
i almost crashed my car coming home one day, because i got this sudden flash of insight that everything, and i mean everything, was interconnected, and that i was part of the web. closest i've ever felt to spiritual safety. thanks for reminding me, i've been in "box alone" mode for a few days.

your comparison of abstract art to speaking in tongues is what i meant earlier (way up there) when i said what's seen as a revelation from god by one person could possibly be construed by others as an addled mind. your idea of interpersonal "resonation"... it's like humming along with highway noise, which feels perfect to the one doing it, but everyone else laughs. some laugh 'cause they think you're stupid, others because they've done the same thing so many times, still others because they're just now getting what you're doing. you never know how your art affects people.

in what way would a postmodernist relate to human gifts being fashioned by an outside source beyond her comprehension?

not so fond of your orchestra analogy. i think to say that a certain group of special people gets to play the music and "the world" are listeners is elitist. no, not everyone is a kandinsky, but they are what they are, and it's possible that our limited historical viewpoint just doesn't allow us to appreciate their part in the music. i know you're an organization person, but redefine music and see what happens. breaking glass, arguments, weeping, cooking dinner, a kiss, the nonsense you say in your sleep...

i myself own a gigantic pollock biography, but since it's too big to carry on the train i've only gotten through his great-grandparents and grandparents. he was extremely deliberate, not only with color choice but in the exact placement of lines to form a composition. sometimes no one could see the difference while he was working, but when he "fixed" what he saw as a problem the difference often became clear.
i have worked with brushes, and yeah, i kind of prefer the palette knife sometimes. thicker straighter application.

singer tom waits played renfield (spider guy in bram stoker's.) excellent performance.

claes oldenburg makes gigantic sculptures of unexpected items, like clothespins, sports equipment and ice cream cones. they're very cool. way back when, he also had an exhibition set up in an empty store, with sculptures of everyday items in the cases and on display with prices-- but none of it was for sale, it was just a commentary on the inability to really "sell" art. people kept asking to buy things and he kept saying no.

i remember the days when i thought brad pitt (and johnny depp too) were going to be flashes in the pan, no talent but for a while could get girls into the theatre... totally untrue about both of them. brad pitt was wonderful in "fight club" and "12 monkeys." (is "12 monkeys" what you're talking about with the dennis hopper hand movements?) johnny depp-- "edward scissorhands," "chocolat," "sleepy hollow," "pirates of the carribean"... he's very versatile and always captivating.

[boddah (boddah)]

rj- parenthetical part meant for bob. didn't know you'd posted.

[boddah (boddah)]

hey, good luck on the book!!
i know what you mean about the empathy factor. not that you're a murderer, and not that you're incapable of peeking inside something different from you-- but do you think it could be that you see parts of the character in yourself?
i started a book a couple months ago, about a suicide, and got fifty pages in before my brain wouldn't go there anymore. seeing your innards, some that you don't even recognize, in print can be hard.

my "m.o." was to take people's advice when they told me "write what you know." ok, so i'll use events and feelings from my past to feed emotion into plots, right? don't write a straight up biography, because then you get pegged and when you do a novel everyone says "oh, it's her" instead of just reading it as a novel. use your experience little by little. the problem arose when i got floored by deliberately concentrating on some of the stuff i was feeling. again, brain started refusing to work with me.
so i moved to poetry, because it can be biographical without giving your life away, without even necessarily being consistent. it's fun, too, like a word game.
i encourage everyone to try out poetry, even if no one else ever sees it. different truths and images come up when you have limited space and time like that-- in a novel you've got as long as you need, so you can be free to expound. poems have to fly like arrows, or be really boring.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"do you think it could be that you see parts of the character in yourself"

YES! Absolutely. It was amazing that I could actually understand on variouslevels the insanity of rage, the eclipse of the rational in both the antagonist and protagonist in the story. How the overlapping realities in their lives are no different than the overlapping realitis of my own.

Just for the sake of the poetry discussion I will share a piece I wrote last year after the experience of sinally gaining insight into the rage and hopelessness of the characters in my novel. It is a musing, a floating connection that binds them...that may make no sence to some, but I think perhaps you may get the meaning.

I seldom share this stuff, but here goes:

ONCE UPON A TIME

"There was no 'before' the beginning of our universe, because once upon a time there was no time." John D. Barrow

Once upon a time there was no time.
Before the void was filled
With the clatter of bombs and epithets
The soundless empty thought reigned.
No bells and whistles sounded.
Just the floating null, the absent moment.
No dawn, no setting sun at which eyes could
marvel.
No sight, sound, form or prayer...
The excellent silence surrounded the nothing
And peace, friction-less peace inhabited
Inherited, incised, the incorporeal nothingness.

Once upon a time there was no time to waste,
No time to lose, no deadlines, no dead-time.
No spaces filled with too much time on our
hands...
No hands to be idle, no clock, no sun shadows to
Pull us onward. No us. No shouted hatred,
No whispered love, no laughter and no time left
Before nuclear midnight erased the calendars
Destroyed the Rolex, when time just ceased...
Before we killed the time gift,
Before we spoiled ocean's time tides
Before the time-without-end nuclear winter.

Once upon a time there was no time.
Freed angels of endless mercy floated
Without knowledge of time's wounds.
The void was good, the null was sweet.
Then the void became engorged and birthed
This howling wind in the universe, and time
Began its march one moment upon another
Until the brains and the braggarts broke it.
Time wreaked havoc until we destroyed it bit by
bit.
Egypt and Atlantis faded. Rome fell.
Churches destroyed faith, morals grew gray.

Once upon a time there was no time
And time has run out again. Terror
Is the rule, blame is the game. Time
Is the crime we are going to pay for.
Time to build bombs, it's to kill the killers.
No time have we for peace without blood?
No time for love without price?
Is it time yet to care for the victim?
The time must come, before there again is none
To embrace the now, the here, the plea's
Of the hungry, the lost, the hated in our
streets.

Once upon a time there was no time.
The soundless empty thought reigned.
No bells and whistles sounded.
Just the floating null, the absent moment.
No dawn, no setting sun at which eyes could
marvel.
No sight, sound, form or prayer.
The excellent silence surrounded the nothing
And peace, friction-less peace inhabited
Inherited, incised, the incorporeal nothingness.
Before the void was filled and overflowing
With the clatter of bombs and endless epithets.


Copyright R J Fernalld 2003-2004
do not reprint without permission

[boddah (boddah)]

"And peace, friction-less peace inhabited
Inherited, incised, the incorporeal nothingness."

"Once upon a time there was no time
And time has run out again. Terror
Is the rule, blame is the game. Time
Is the crime we are going to pay for."

beautiful, beautiful. thank you so much for this rj!!

here are a couple of mine you might find relevant, about the nature of the world, time.
(also their first time in public.)

(untitled)

It’s a red bull of a world,
rage force, muscled, violent.
Straddle it, seamlessly
melt your own clots into its back.
Pain red, black red, red giant,
a girl with a handful of tampons
and no home to hide in.
Cold red like baby’s blood.
Overdose lips, Chanel haunted,
praying to dissolve.


(untitled)
In the beginning
was love,
bright simple love,
and love was good.
Love saw the serpent,
glistening, weaving,
winking—
and the serpent was good.
The serpent stretched open
its jaws, unhinged
its delicate jaws,
and devoured love whole.
This was a pulsing
tongued embrace,
and the embrace was good.
Love nestled in the belly
of the serpent, dreaming
in the warm dark.
The serpent traveled
over grass and sand,
swift and low, swish,
taking love it knew not where,
and the blindness was good, good.

(all rights reserved by author, 2004.
do not reprint without permission.)

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"Cold red like baby’s blood.
Overdose lips, Chanel haunted,
praying to dissolve."

Been there....exquisite imagery!

The serpent's unhinging it's jaws...so repugnant to watch, asymmetrical, uncontrolled like the chaos..."and the blindness was good, good"

Your imagery is discreet and loud all at once...impactful!

I shall let these simmer in my mind today...thank you.

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on November 20, 2004)

[boddah (boddah)]

(thanks, rj. i am loving having a poet to talk with!)

anybody, feel free to continue the poetry/movie/painting/music...

wanted to introduce tattoos as an art form. there's a bit of a generation gap in tattoo acceptance, i think. my parents associate them with prison, but are intrigued nonetheless. dan's parents just associate them with prison. i was always told growing up that they defiled god's temple.
i have two now, and plan a third (a peacock feather) for december. love to look at books of japanese tattoos, head to toe lotus and koi and kimonos, battle scenes, scenes from nature...
talk about experiencing art! the phrase "art is pain" also comes to mind.


i'm out for a while now...see ya

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Roberta, When Jesus said 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you', He was encouraging self analysis. It's not uncommon for those who act to try to build the kind of mindset in themselves that their role suggests, a kind of working persona. I remember watching a video of the pianist Vladimir Horowitz, and hearing him talking about devouring literature from the countries of the composers he played so that he'd better understand the music.

If you build personalities and backgrounds for your characters, then you can 'research' to find what their values and motives might be in different scenarios. I remember reading something that the author Roger Zelazny said about deliberately leaving holes in things; holding back information he knew about his characters and what was going on. This built more of a mystique into his work.

Another way of looking at people is in terms of things like mental illnesses, compulsion, how they're influenced by unvoiced expectations that they believe exist.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

One other thing that occurs to me is that I really like the way poets write prose. They seem to have a much greater sense of the value of particular words and phrases. They're used to having to learn to evoke other things beyond what they actually say. So their prose has a sense of richness and depth to it. Perhaps writing poems about the characters or what they face might help you to find better ways to put things. And your poetry might gain from it as well.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah; Modern classical music is not really all that definable. There are various trends that have to do with tonality and harmonic structure or their opposites. I tend to think of the modern classical age as being started shortly after 1900. There was a thing to use a twelve note 'scale', with the notes not in any particular order, and then to have to reuse all twelve notes again, but not necessarily in the same order. People came up with all kinds of systems for diferent aspects of the music that were similar to this. They sometimes used quarter tones. Dissonance was increasingly popular with some.

But many composers wrote things that did not follow these kinds of fashions, or only partly did. And the vacuum cleaners and breaking glass and such things have often been employed as musical art form. John Cage once wrote a piece that was for a defined amount of silence.

This mishmash that became sort of anything goes with strong schools of thought and 'You're old-fashioned' accusations, makes definition impossible except perhaps by time period. But there were people writing Romantic (another classical label) music throughout the twentieth century and beyond. At times they were considered unfashionable, and at others they've been considered newly fashionable. So I pick out what I like, and the heck with what people think of my tastes. Oh my God. I sat the wrong way again!

Anyway, one of my favorite composers writes very complex music which gives an underlying sense of order that takes many listenings to begin to pick up on. His name is Elliott Carter, and he was born in 1908. He is still composing, and he's still very complex. His descriptions of his work are very profound and intellectually exciting. Alfred Schnittke was a Russian who lived from 1934 till 1998. He had an unusual way of mixing old melodious music with intensely more modern music. Not everyone likes such stuff. It's kind of weird. But I like weird things quite often. Along the way he had a stroke, and his music was never quite the same after that.

I'll go back to your earlier post at some later point. I'm wearing down a bit; and it was involved enough so that I felt the need to copy it out to look at as I respond.

[boddah (boddah)]

um, how'd you sit? are you okay?

there's a chicago symphony store like five blocks from me that i know has this stuff, so i'll go look again. i tried once, but didn't know anybody except the oldies (i really like telemann, though.) couldn't even begin to know where to start, there was so much selection...

so, you're familiar with redefining music to include dissonance- and seem to like it! that's a definite plus. i wouldn't have thought so from your orchestra example earlier. i interpreted that spiritually rather than literally, but still thought it might say something about your musical preference. mistaken, i guess.
to clarify: you meant orchestra as in specifically christian orchestra, witnessing to world/audience, no? and i meant breaking glass, cooking dinner etc. as in the world at large makes music christians sometimes can't hear.

also surprising was your comment on poets' prose. it seemed to me that when i let loose the language yesterday you froze up. i wasn't offended, i just didn't quite know how to respond. apparently you didn't interpret my verbal "visuals" negatively?


hey!!! just watched u2 on snl. know what? adam let his blonde hair go grey, like a sane person, instead of resorting to tar-like dye like some lead singers i could name. i say, adam is so damn cool. stays out of the spotlight but still has a lot of personality. however, some lead singers could wear a tutu at age 75 and still rock the house.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I love dissonance. I like music that seems chaotic on the surface but has subtle underlying order to it. I believe that we subconsciously give order to that which is abstract, though the order could be established in only some aspects of the work. There can be reasons we choose what colors we do that are very meaningful; but we may not be conscious of why we choose as we do. Music can be similar; but often the choice of the order is conscious and deliberately hidden or subdued.

I like poetry, but am not patient enough with it. I get caught up in the volume and variety of different things I wish to attend to or explore. There's so much to reread, and a lot of things I haven't even gotten to the first time yet. And my time spent here is sort of a creative kind of act in some respects, as prayer can be. My wife just bought me some acrylics. I haven't been painting (only dabbled a bit in it in the past) or even drawing (did a lot of this) for several years now. Prayer and meaningful interaction with others have kind of taken up the space it had previously.

The sitting wrong was a sarcastic reference to the way Stevens would tell us to study how pastors sat on the stage; that there was a 'right way' to do it. When you said something about me being an 'organizational' person somewhere above, it struck me really oddly; because I am so keen on individuality and creative differences. I believe in order, but I think it can work differently for different people. I think 'right' things can be done in many and subtle ways.

Getting involved with finding classical music you like can be kind of complicated. I learned a lot by accident. I hate listening to the radio. I like to choose what I listen to. In many stores they have places where you can listen to discs; and that may be helpful. There's a British magazine that has reasonably reliable reviews called Gramophone. They also have a web site that you can find if you do a search; but the actual magazine might work better unless you're looking for information on a particular composer or work or performance. One of our local libraries subscribes to it. It's kind of expensive ($8.95 I think). Reading what the reviewers find good or bad about both the performance and the works can give you an idea of what you might find appealing.

In the context of the orchestra thing I gave; the more complex and seemingly chaotic the music is, the more important it is to see that the part that most concerns you is your own. You fit in with others sometimes in ways that are harmonious and at other times may clash. The composer (God) is the one who writes the music and understands why your part is what it is. Others may, to a degree; but may not. Your actual judgment is not in terms of what the others think, but in terms of what the music 'demands'. As a creative person, you can sense this as you work. I have to do this now. This is what it needs next or over there. You have an inner sense for it. I equate this inner sense with the Holy Spirit. He could be the conductor. The orchestra is the Church; but it is the whole Church; not just some 'local assembly'. The music is God's message of love and the hope for reconciliation for both believers and unbelievers. Unbelievers do bear the image of God; and they do have a kind of music; often reflecting God's character and creative 'energy'. The value unbelievers already have can develop in ways that are better, more spiritually focused; if they gain a place with the composer. Then the conductor will be more directly and fully for them. There is confusion perhaps for you between what I'm talking about and the 'organizational' aspects of the Church (denominations and such). The degree to which individuals who come to belief should be associated with these organizational aspects is to be determined by the composer and the conductor, as is the timing of it. It may be that some kind of cell group or even just several other friends who are believers are meant to be that individual's 'local church'. Many other believers would not like my saying that; but you fit where God wants you, and He can show you better than I. Elijah went off and lived with the widow for an extended period of time (3 years, I think). She and her son were his 'church' and mission field for that time.

By 'verbal visuals', you mean your poetry? I believe in expressing what needs expression, and am not easily offended. I don't have time to go back to reread it at the moment. Perhaps later.

I've never dyed my hair. It started going grey when I was 19.

The postmodern is a bit uncertain territory for me. Other than public school and Bible school, I'm self-taught. I've heard things about it, but am not immersed in its climate. My partial understanding (which may be inaccurate) is that it is not concerned with proving things through logical structure in order to accept them. It has a bit of the flavor of following the Spirit instead of trying to define things and behavior through the Bible. That sense of instinct. This makes open such things as Wicca, Paganism, New Age, Witchcraft, and the Spirit-oriented elements of Christianity. Faith rather than proof. Feel free to correct my perceptions here. I prefer real and honest connection between us. This kind of spiritual/intellectual climate seems similar to what was going on toward the end of the 19th century and at the beginning of the 20th. I think a lot of the explosion of the arts in the same period was related to it.

This leads me to something else I find interesting. I grew up with the older, more melodious elements of classical music; and other stuff my parents liked. As a teen I became very interested in Rock, and later in both jazz and the other types of classical. My parent's tastes in music seemed static. They didn't seem to grow into the times. But I continue to find current people that I really like. I love 'Jagged Little Pill' and Dave Matthews Band and many other current or recent things. I like many newly composed classical things. And my kids love Jethro Tull and Gentle Giant and Yes and the Beatles... I think partly this is my fault; but also that this generation and mine are more connected than we were with our parents.

I'm going to have to go; but I don't think I'm done here. I'll be back later, or in the morning.

[minutus (minutus)]

Hey Bob,
A lot of the groups you listed were favorites of mine back in the 70s. Did you ever listen to Renaissance? They were (and still are) the best kept musical secret of that decade.

[boddah (boddah)]

good afternoon, as i sip my triple grande latte...

by "verbal visualization" i was actually referring to the post before the poetry, with the bram stoker's and the nine inch nails video. thought i might have gotten a bit graphic for ya. good not to be easily offended. i am superconscious of offending (guess why) and try not to let that get in my way, but sometimes regret it.

if you're impatient with poetry, seriously, there's always shel silverstein, and haiku. haiku is three lines (five, seven, five syllables) meant to express a moment or single sight, and it's both powerful and quick. doesn't always have to be asian. shel silverstein is just clever and funny.


i remember there was "right way to sit on stage! a lot of people cheated, though, as far as i could see. i mean, if you're going to be there for a few hours, you gotta sit like you gotta sit. thierry labarre, for instance, always sat wrong (did you know them? he taught me french and i used to babysit for them looooong ago.) but he smiled the whole time-- who could scold that smile? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif my dad also sat wrong, usually because he'd worked all day and was falling asleep over his notebook.


your perceptions about postmodernism are correct, but an atheist could just as easily be a postmodernist as a wiccan. funny, atheism didn't even come up in your post!
postmodernism is a reaction to modernism, which (like mondrian) believed that there was a simple, perfect way to create art and they strove to find it. because they thought no historical movement had ever come close, they rejected (good luck) all historical reference, and then all representational reference. things got very uptight. postmodernism came along and said, ok, screw all y'all, we're not going by your rules OR anyone else's, in fact, don't even talk to us about rules. maybe they exist, maybe not. we all have a different opinion and that's why every historical period is equally valid, and equally invalid. we're going to make art without giving thought to consistency, as we see fit, using whatever symbols from whatever periods we wish. we could use them all, even. everybody just leave us alone.
moderists were far more inclined to think that there was a perfect set of rules, but much more abstract than the kind of thing leonardo da vinci thought was the perfect set of rules. therefore they were far more open to the possibility of a grand rule-creator...although they were jaded by the world wars and occasionally bitterness trumped spirituality.
a postmodernist could agree with virtually any arrangement of good god/ bad god, atheism, agnosticism, creation by superior alien race, you name it. and they would still be postmodernists, whether or not anyone else in the movement agreed.
ask me what a post- postmodernist is, and i can't realy tell you with confidence, except that it has something to do with people got sick of having no yardstick for meaning, and so started grouping together loosely and manufacturing yardsticks from whatever material they had. this annoys me because you can never tell which one they're using, or what movements they smushed together to make it. i also think it's an excuse to go back to the ways of thought common in their families for generations, because let's face it, everyone's afraid to lose the love and respect of their families. (you said, "this generation and mine are more conected than we were with our parents." true.) post-postmodernists aren't generally very single-minded about the goals of the particular group to which they belong, and they can always point to postmodernists and say, look, mom, at least i'm not like them. (i reiterate: not an expert on the post-postmodernism.)

is't possible that post-post is where you are? you've come out of the legalistic proper world, seen the bizzarro world, and decided to stay in between, with some freedom and some structure?

i actually started out after ggwo as a bunch of molecules held together by sheer willpower; then i moved to a working girl whose humble goal was just to make myself and dan feel better; then when i did feel better i was all energized and did the pagan thing whole hog for a while; then i settled down and am now an atheist with contradicting pantheistic pagan overtones. but still evolving.

on a personal note,
some people got it, some people don't (and by "got it" i mean outward expression of a collection of values and traits i personally find appealing, as opposed to "correct." [joke.]) but bob, you got it. i respect that you've never dyed your hair, and i really respect that your mind is so open. it's a fearless love for understanding combined with great humility that makes you possible.

i love dissonance, too, and i agree that humans automatically filter apparent chaos through an order screen. sometimes i wish we didn't all the time.
no, i totally knew what your orchestra thing meant. i just didn't quite know how to say that i don't think there's a single composer, but rather the subconscious parts of the players compose the music. we choose our own directors, or internalize them from youth. wish more people knew how much responsibility they had to the orchestra, not just to "catch on" and use their gift, but to plan the whole event, venue, seating arrangement, hors d'oevres... not to mention timing and beat and tune. might freak them at first, but maybe they'd get better at it as they realized they'd been doing it all along.


one time i was in a health class at college, and people were listing ways to get rid of stress. the list was what you might expect, massages, puppies, kittens, bubble baths, casablanca... and i timidly raised my hand and suggested that some might find death metal a good way to blow off steam. it was "suggested" back to me that this was a destructive way to do it, as opposed to yoga. i saw her point, but still... later on, the "multifaith chaplain" who'd been in the room stopped me and said don't worry, you're just someone who needs a spiritual scratching post.
i've never felt bad about music that feels good since.
and that's the class where i met dan, too!

i'm going to go find you my favorite haiku in the world, i've got the book somewhere...

[lee (lee)]

seem to be rushing in and out today, but wanted to make 1 comment on haiku.....love it but seems to me that it would be one of the most difficult things to do! Condensing so much thought/emotion into a few lines? With syllables?
I admire painters that can say something complex with few strokes or colors or paint.....but I think it takes alot of info /made pure to do it.
I'm at a place now with my painting where, as much as I'd like to state something succinctly, I don't. Actually, I can't put enough paint/strokes and stuff on a canvas.
Went to church today, and both of us came out angry and frustrated......

[lee (lee)]

Bob, Bod, reading your short essays on music is good for me. I am one that missed out on so much when I entered christianity....70's, 80's are all a blur cause the good music I couldn't listento , so opted for nothing. We don't like christian music, so we lived without. Now its hard to catch up.....also expensive!
I'll have to learn from my kids.....they have those things that carry many tunes.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Lee (and to everyone else),

I perceive you as someone who might really like Carol King's music (pretty much late 60's to late 70's). Am I right? Like many pop icons, her non-hits were some of her best (if not the best) music she did.

If you have not already, check out her songs "Brother, Brother, Brother", "Bitter with the Sweet" and her brilliant concept album "Fantasy". Bear in mind that not only did she write and sing these songs. She played piano, organ, and other keyboards as well as arranging and conducting the horns and strings. ... mega talented lady. From 13-15 (73'-75') I had a hopeless crush on her! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

[boddah (boddah)]

ok, my favorite haiku yet. this is a modern one, by an american (lee gurga, from chicago) with no regard for the five-seven-five rule. this disregard is becoming more common, and i'm not sure if i like it or not. freedom good, but may be bad sportsmanship... however:

"cutting posts--
the sizzle of sleet
on the chainsaw housing."

love it.

dan has no patience whatever for poetry, even mine. makes me read it four times before he even knows what the topic is. but he can write an awesome haiku in about five seconds. he was an art major, but i wonder if the haiku isn't partly due to his being great at math?

lee, glad you're even reading these long posts!

your painting's probably expressing that you're still distilling the info you have in there. you have to know what it is to distill it, and seeing it maybe helps you know what it is?
did you see the movie "hero," set in china, subtitles? (movie was visuallly stunning.) it took the calligraphy master many months to find the exactly perfect symbol for a particular nuance of "sword," even though there were already hundreds of symbols in use.

i know what you mean about christian music. sandi patti, amy grant (and even she counted as rock for a while.) my mom has an affinity for hymns as old as the hills, so i like those because of her, but new christian music (as advertised on tv) creeps me out. it's amazing, though, how often a sound or word i hear makes me start humming a ggwo song service tune... it used to make me laugh when p. paul did the service and it was like clockwork, he hit a certain note, kept going up and up, and ended with a blast of "we exalt thee." nothing wrong with the song, just funny that it happened almost every service. very expensive to catch up on music, i'm trying to transfer my tape collection into cd's, and it's taking quite a while.

why'd you go today?

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Dave, Renaissance is a band I've read about, but can't remember if I actually heard. When I went to Bible school, I had my father sell off my record collection; and over the years I just never have picked up any of their things. Are they only available on imports?

[lee (lee)]

We went to church, I think because we've missed so much lately, like 2 months......our son got married, we visited friends we haven't seen, visited our sons girlfriend,etc......we still have a very strong hunger for the 'things' of God and have discovered that finding them are often not in a church building.......our training tells us that we ought to go, our bible says not to forsake the gathering together of ourselves and we really really really want to be with others. We work hard at what we do, contrary to what some think of us, we laid our lives down many years ago to serve others and we haven't picked them up. We live in a community that is 95% black or African American to be correct and sometimes we need a break, we need to be built up ( a christian term, I know but its a good one)we experience culture shock, still. Love them all but not that I want more white people, I just need to make a connection and sometimes the church we go to is just too hip, too intellectual, too structured and way too stupid, like today. I'm tired of being beaten up and or hit with the bible...... like that will help me. Today, was a message that was just too narrow for me. It was for an audience of well educated, well to do folks that want a good life. Jack calls it low level lust. He says their secret prayer is 'God, help me to keep a lid on my lusts.....I want them but don't want to get out of step too much) Its quite a diverse crowd. We have people from all over and of all color, but all seem to 'have it made'.
We have been with the poor and unwanted all our adult lives.
I went to the store yesterday (I usually go to the suburbs) a couple blocks from our home and it took so long to get out because getting in there was hard because they don't know how to drive, waiting in line took long because the woman in front of me couldn't read, she couldn't count her money, the kid was so stunned, he helped her but was slow in doing it.....this ignorance in everyday life is very common to us. It breaks your heart that there are so many so ignorant and backward in todays world.
Maybe its just the poor thinking skills that I've judged others to have!

[boddah (boddah)]

wait- lee, are you the ones who don't live in baltimore? if so, going to church (even that one) makes more sense-- i thought you went to gg in balto.

can relate to the "have it made" thing. often i feel despondent at school because i know that when i graduate (again) i'm going to be expected to join those ranks, and i don't want to. i have no idea what to do about that, because i love interior design and i don't want to starve. but so help me, if i have to highlight my hair and wear heels, pretend to bump into contacts at trendy restaurants... i frequently suggest that we move to tibet and raise goats, and i'm really only half joking.
i've spent a lot of time in florida over the years. at first it was mostly with my family, who live in a middle-income sorta neighborhood not far from a krispy kreme, and you know how it goes, i slept on the sofa or the floor and we all couldn't fit at the table at the same time and there was no air conditioning. but we loved each other, and went romping on the local beach, getting scraped up by the hidden rocks and not reallly caring.
now i go mainly to visit my husband's family, who are more well-off than mine. we'll spend a week in boca raton, day trips to palm beach, gigantic shopping malls, all employees at all stores treat you like royalty, beaches are soft white, every need taken care of, etc.
i often get very depressed there now, like i never did before. when i was young it was understood that we would be uncomfortable just like everyone else, and grumpy was ok but depressed didn't happen. we were on vacation from depressed (otherwise known as ggwo.)
now i see a perfectly formed palm tree against a fluffy white cloud and start crying. i cry for all the people i love, all the people in the world that i love and can't bring with me to see the tree. i want my parents to see the tree.
funny, my parents don't really even need to see the tree... i guess i want them to approve of my seeing the tree.

i just realized that the last couple of sentences sounded like a wicked christian metaphor. take it as you will, i'm not rewriting it!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah, My wife (Mary) and I spent about a week in France with the choir in 1984, and met Thierry there. We really liked him. He was funny. I guess I don't view atheism as a belief system, but as the absence of belief. Are there different kinds? Maybe some have selective disbelief, excluding some things and granting possibility to others.

I can understand what you're saying about the orchestra thing. I can see logic in that view.

I frankly am rather tired of labels and categories of thinking. It's like trying to drive down a road with huge ruts in it. People get so trapped in their own schools of thought that they don't really listen to or understand anyone outside it. They define everyone else by what they themselves think. I myself read and listen to things, and intend to pick up from them connections to what is true or has value for me. I'm not looking for the right box.

One of the things I personally perceive about the Spirit is a sense of continual movement, as if He's a kind of dance within me and between me and other things and ideas. So I'm trying continually to adjust to what I see as I go. I perceive God as having a set character, but myself as being in motion toward Him, given the steps as I go. He is much too complex to have an accurate perception of from just one angle.

Your unbelief or disbelief does not threaten me, and I'm not afraid of coming to understand why you think as you do. And my own belief is that if you were part of 'the Body' (in its reality, not GG), then you still are; no matter what things look like. And I enjoy these exchanges. You're an interesting person.

[lee (lee)]

The metaphor is fine with me!
We live in Boston, inner city.....we do have our own home, small but nice, I'm getting a studio built on the back.
If I'm thinking correctly, I think your mother must have taught one of our boys in school in Lenox.....maybe not. We missed alot being in Boston, probably a good thing.
We have been attending a Vineyard church.....the fastest growing church in NE. It's a fav of all the young people......no heels but lots of hair color, piercings, tatoos and such. A middle aged guy danced around the entire gymnasium today....all I could picture was him in tights! He was really good. He's a white guy and can do hip hop.
The hunger for spiritual things must be great here. 3 services and we went to the family one, where all the kids come for sunday school. The later it gets, the more the young folk come out but still, theres lots of them in the 1st.
Music is wild....lots from Berkeley here....jazz, alternative, world....all put together sometimes with the old sacred hymns....I like it when I'm there but when I get home, I can't do choruses about how sick I was, and how God healed me...
I'll take the perfectly formed palm tree against a fluffy white cloud today!

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Boddah, The hills of Buda did that for me. We arrived in Budapest on a Saturday night and stayed at the school.. the next morning everyone left, including my husband, for church. First thing I did is walk my three children up into the hills and we just sat and reveled. The moment was so beautiful it made my heart ache. I contrast that with our first night in Moscow and my oldest daughter sobbing in my arms from shock and grief of our first day in Moscow. Budapest was full of life, color, beauty where even the ugliness had a vitality about it. It was kinda magical, like getting to live in an Old World fairy tale. But Moscow at first appearance was a place where all the air and color had been sucked out. Everything was dead and gray.. the buildings, the land, the people.. their eyes.. I remember thinking "this is what makes communism evil, they stole away the people's soul, they killed their will for life".. I grew to love Moscow and found it to be an exciting city. But what a contrast to Buda and Pest!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I've always wanted to go to Russia. Perhaps St. Petersberg (sp?) would have been more to your taste. I so love Russian music, and Kandinsky is from there. And Doestoyevsky (if I weren't so lazy, I'd check spelling from the next room). And Cossacks, and those steppes and wide open spaces. As an ex-claustrophobic, I want at all that open space. I remember being out on the open ocean. I luxuriated in it. But who really wants to stand in line for toilet paper?

[minutus (minutus)]

Bob,

I sold my records, too, before moving to Lenox. I first saw Renaissance in 1975 and Gentle Giant was the opening act. They were an English band, mix of classical rock, folk with a little jazz mixed in. Most of their songs were written by a mysterious poetess from Cornwall, so the lyrics are moving. Most of their stuff is on import CDs these days, but generally not expensive except for the Japanese recordings.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Oh, Boddah; For some reason, when I was talking about ways to find out about what classical music you might like, I didn't think about one of the most obvious things; which is to take discs out of the library. I've found tons of stuff that way. You can hear bits of things online, but with this kind of music, that might not really tell you much. Have a nice weekend-end.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Bob,

One stood in line for everything! A line would form in the middle of no where... nothing at the beginning of the line. You soon learned that someone had told someone else that a "ya-it-sa(egg)" truck was coming and sometimes it would come and many times it did not! I remember one day a truck showed up at our apartment and everyone was running out the door carrying large buckets, pans and etc, I had no idea what was happening and called a Russian friend and explained the scenerio, I was told to "quick, grab anything that could hold water and get in line, they are about to turn off your water" Which is exactly what happened, no water for days! And yes, toilet paper was hard to find.. but their toilet paper was soo hard you could write letters home on it! I learned to adapt and adjust and make do and had the time of my life there!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Thanks Dave, I'll look for them when I'm in the right kinds of places. I saw Gentle Giant several times. At least once opening for Tull, and once in a bizarre concert that included Peter Frampton and Steppenwolf. Most of the crowd was there for Frampton. GG's keyboard player was a believer, and their album 'The Power and the Glory' was based on a novel by Graham Greene that was about a government persecuting believers (and one priest in particular). There's a great song on there, that I always felt could've been used for someone to sing in services. The name of it is Aspirations:

As the dust settles, see our dreams, all coming true
it depends on you, if our times, they are troubled times, show us the way, tell us what to do.

As our faith, maybe aimless blind, hope our ideals and our thoughts are yours
And believing the promises, please make our claims really so sincere.

Be our guide, our light and our way of life and let the world see the way we lead our way.
Hopes, dreams, hopes dreaming that all our sorrow's gone.

In your hands, holding everyone's future and fate
It is all in you, Make us strong build our unity, all men as one
it is all in you.

Be our guide, our light and our way of life and let the world see the way we lead our way.
Hopes, dreams, dreaming that all our sorrow's gone forever.'

This is sung with great beauty and tenderness throughout.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

CAUGHT

Captured in webs woven by bullies
are the unassuming innocent.
Arrogant spiders lay in wait for the
"hapless fool" who relaxes. Dogmatizing nazi!
How dare you condemn the artless servant
for his unselfish cadeau. Haughty and impious,
society's bigoted pharisee! You grind away at the good
merely to gain stature among your spider brood.

Awaken, little prey. Harken unto truth!
Spiders may try to suck your life's blood
from you to make you as bitter as they.
But remember the irony that underlies their world:
The only creature dependent upon the
web for survival, is the vicious, pathetic spider itself.
It is the spider who struggle for survival
along the underbelly of the very truth that condemns him.

copyright RJ Fernalld
(do not reprint without permission)

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on November 21, 2004)

[minutus (minutus)]

Jeannie,

Your Moscow story bring back old memories. I never found toilet paper for sale in Baku until the last week we were there. An English Bible translator left us his copy of the London Times to help get us by http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

[boddah (boddah)]

have any of you who sold your record collections seen sofia coppola's "the virgin suicides?"

jeannie-
i loved st. petersburg. (sp?) it was absolutely beautiful, and naturally we were staying in the most expensive hotel there for the conference (and still eating a lot of noodles and broth, and "miscellaneous" meatballs.) i didn't really understand the place until i walked into a shop and stood there in the middle of the one aisle between two glass cases. the cases were completely empty except for one comb, one small bottle of what must have been cosmetic stuff, and one penknife. there were a man and a woman in aprons, standing with their hands on the counter, in front of empty floor-to-ceiling wooden shelves.
believe me, back in budapest that image stuck.

bob-
library's a very good idea. i live a block from what i think is the largest library in the country. it is, coincidentally, in a postmodern architectural style, which was highly debated when they were choosing an architect because the rest of the city is sort of art deco-ish. a lot of people wanted either deco or i.m. pei modern. what they got was this massive multifaceted gorgeous half polished half rough granite and marble masterpiece, with copper (now green) sculpture involving owls of some kind all over the top, and these deepset windows like portals. i love that library.
you're ex-claustrophobic... i love small spaces. i'll hole up with a notebook in a large cupboard or a closet sometimes, just for fun. i'm also terrified of (and fascinated with) the ocean. i'll swim in it as long as i don't remember what lives in there, but get me thinking about the creatures with teeth, and the miles upon miles of sunken mountains so far down, so dark and all alone, where no one can hear your drowned form quietly land on the sandy bottom... as a kid i loved the ocean, i would have dared any shark to try. kinda prefer the beach now.
also, i think any atheist who doesn't admit to at least 1% doubt is lying. they might not think so now, but wait till they get closer to dying. there is room in atheism for a general "spirit" to which the whole universe contributes, and which may cause different emotional reactions at different places times based on what it's been fed...but it's not going to give you choreography. as far as how or if we began, that's still considered a mystery.
i agree, down with labels, long live discovery!


lee-
your church sounds fun. a bit like art school, plus god. i mentioned earlier that i'm tattooed; am also pierced. lost my nose piercing 'cause it wouldn't heal right (i sleep on my stomach, so it was rubbing the pillow a lot) and am very put out about that. otherwise all is well with the metal insertions.
however, none of this stuff is visible. i walk around looking like someone barely old enough to go to the piercer's without parental consent, and no one knows me until they talk to me. shame, really, 'cause i think more people would talk to me if i wore how i am on my sleeve (or arm)-- but i try to avoid visible ones in expectance that when i get a JOB it will be frowned upon. i'm such a sellout. on the other hand, starvation. maybe, in the year 4005 or so when i start my own business, i'll have a portfolio that's so great i can look however i choose. oh- if you mean joey, i had the wickedest crush on him. was teased to no end.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Hey Boddah, I'm not particularly bothered by the idea of tattoos, though I'd prefer personally to be able to change what's there without it having to be surgery. I'm not really offended by piercings, but some (such as eyelid or tongue) make me uncomfortable to see. This isn't the same as being offended or thinking that such things are wrong morally.

[boddah (boddah)]

i love my tattoos. they were really painful, but worth it.
when i get a tattoo i always wait until a certain image reaches out to me. oddly, all of them so far involve flying, although i didn't plan on that. i've got a red bird with blue and white eyes all over it (wings, body, as well as head,) and a black outline w/ grey shading of a mouse with wings, dancing under a crescent moon. third, like i said, will be peacock feather.
what's up with that, do you think?

i figure, even if the image becomes less captivating to me at some point, it'll be a running catalog of my past. like a map. everyone says, well what's it going to look like when you're old and wrinkled? answer, if i even make it to old and wrinkled, i intend to be the kind of independent pirate who simply does not care.

now piercings, those you can obtain and get rid of really easily. david, the guy who did my nose, said he had a nipple piercing for twenty three years, then he took it out one night for some reason, and next morning it had closed up already. i worked at keeping the nose stud for a long time, but when i finally gave up the hole was invisible in a couple of days.
it's easy to run out of protruding body parts that are safe and comfortable to pierce, but there is the option of surface piercing (like sticking a safety pin through your skin, puncturing on the way in and on the way out, only with a barbell or ring.) thinking about that but no ideas yet.
the only facial piercing i actually don't like is the one people get above their mouths, like a cindy crawford mole? those always seem contrived.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

have any of you who sold your record collections seen sofia coppola's "the virgin suicides?"

yes...good movie

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Nonotone,

I loved Carole King! Tapestry was my favorite album.. lost it in one of 32 "ministry moves"...

Tapestry


My life has been a tapestry of rich and royal hue
An everlasting vision of the everchanging view
A wondrows woven magic in bits of blue and gold
A tapestry to feel and see, impossible to hold
Once amind the soft silver sadnessin the sky
There came a man of fortune, a drifter passing by
He wore a torn and tattered cloth around his leathered hide
And a coat of many colors, yellow-green on either side
He move with some uncertainty, as if he didn't know
Just what he was there for, or where he ought to go
Once he reached for something golden hanging from a tree
And his hand come down empty
Soon within my tapestry along the rutted road
He sat down on a river rock and turned into a toad
It seemed that he had falleninto someone's wicked spell
And I wept to see him suffer, tough I didn't know him well
As I watched in sorrow, there suddenly appeared
Afigure gray and ghostly beneath a flowing beard
In times of deepest darkness, I've seen him dressed in black
Now my tapestry's unravelling; he's come to take me back
He's came to take me back

[jeannie (jeannie)]

I grew up on a steady diet of Joan Baez and Joni Mitchell from my mother and Bagpipes, Uilleanns and Bodhrans from my father... U2 and the Cranberries are a good mix of the two!


HONEST LULLABY
(Words and Music by Joan Baez)

Early early in the game
I taught myself to sing and play
And use a little trickery
On kids who never favored me
Those were years of crinoline slips
And cotton skirts and swinging hips
And dangerously painted lips
And stars of stage and screen
Pedal pushers, ankle socks
Padded bras and campus jocks
Who hid their vernal equinox
In pairs of faded jeans
And slept at home resentfully
Coveting their dreams

And often have I wondered
How the years and I survived
I had a mother who sang to me
An honest lullaby

Yellow, brown, and black and white
Our Father bless us all tonight
I bowed my head at the football games
And closed the prayer in Jesus' name
Lusting after football heroes
tough Pachuco, little Neroes
Forfeiting my A's for zeroes
Futures unforeseen
Spending all my energy
In keeping my virginity
And living in a fantasy
In love with Jimmy Dean
If you will be my king, Jimmy, Jimmy,
I will be your queen

And often have I wondered
How the years and I survived
I had a mother who sang to me
An honest lullaby

I travelled all around the world
And knew more than the other girls
Of foreign languages and schools
Paris, Rome and Istanbul
But those things never worked for me
The town was much too small you see
And people have a way of being
Even smaller yet
But all the same though life is hard
And no one promised me a garden
Of roses, so I did okay
I took what I could get
And did the things that I might do
For those less fortunate

And often have I wondered
How the years and I survived
I had a mother who sang to me
An honest lullaby

Now look at you, you must be growing
A quarter of an inch a day
You've already lived near half the years
You'll be when you go away
With your teddy bears and alligators
Enterprise communicators
All the tiny aviators head into the sky
And while the others play with you
I hope to find a way with you
And sometimes spend a day with you
I'll catch you as you fly
Or if I'm worth a mother's salt
I'll wave as you go by

And if you should ever wonder
How the years and you'll survive
Honey, you've got a mother who sings to you
Dances on the strings for you
Opens her heart and brings to you
An honest lullaby

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Today marks the 41st anniversary of C.S.Lewis' death, which I call to your attention flying in the face of the overwhelming attention that goes to that other guy who died the same day. You know, JF-what's his name?

This strangely echos another day in 1953, when Sergei Prokofiev (who gave us so much great music) had the misfortune to die on the same day as Joey Stalin. Prokofiev's death virtually passed unnoticed, while the mobster politician had all the state hoo-hah.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I've always found it strange that periods of art or music or whatnot can be refered to as 'modern' or 'contemporary'. Eventually the term is no longer descriptive. I'm not sure 'alternative' really means anything anymore, either. 'Progressive' is another one. I'm sure a lot of serious music lovers considered progressive jazz to be a digression. If you go back and listen to the wild uncharted territory that John Coltrane was exploring years before that without electric instruments, it makes a lot of the 'progressive' stuff sound pretty tame.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Another odd thing is that some of those who have been instrumental in breaking the arts free from old lines, such as Kandinsky and Schoenberg, had very tightly defined methods and boundaries that they imposed on their work. If you read about them, they almost sound like bondage; and yet their work seemed to break others free. In Schoenberg's case, classes of future composers ended up being in bondage to his methods, taking them as a 'short cut' to produce their works. But Scoenberg was a great composer who produced great work. Many of them were hacks. Some had the sense to glean things from him and receive the insights he gave, and yet maintain their own individuality and find their own places. Frank Martin, Elliott Carter and Messiaen pop to mind. The 1960s was a particularly bleak period for classical music, though some composers did some good things. There was in general too much emphasis on trying to shock people. The results sound really dated, and pretty boring.

So, in this light; why is it that Sheryl Crow's Tuesday album is no longer very interesting, has 'worn out its welcome'; while something like the White Album or any of Sarah McLachlan's albums retain their vitality no matter how many times you hear them? I could listen to a Gentle Giant album or an early Tull album all day long, and come back for more tomorrow. Tuesday had interest initially, and I could pull it out and listen once; but not hang there. Really superior music reveals more to you if you hang out with it. The little nuances and sidetracks make themselves progressively apparent. The personality of the music grows on you.

[minutus (minutus)]

Bob, it's funny you should mention Prokofiev. He was the favorite composer of John Tout, the Renaissance keyboard player. John often wore "Prokofiev Rules" t-shirts during concerts. I could send you a sampler of their stuff if you'd like. Contact me at minutus@gte.net.

I'll definitely check out Gentle Giant. The thing I remember most about them was the quality of their vocals. That was the first "rock concert" I ever attended.

[karen (karen)]

Dave,

I saw Renaissance back in '76 or '77 in a beautiful, old theatre in Buffalo, NY, while visiting a friend. I think I was in the third row. They were wonderful. I remember thinking that it wasn't humanly possible for the lead singer to hit some of her highest notes--and with such clarity.

I have often wondered why the group gets no airplay at all these days. I guess they're not part of the "canon" of classic rock.

[minutus (minutus)]

Karen,

Annie Haslam was trained as an opera singer and from what I understand can still sing like that today. She lives near Philadelphia and still does a small number of concerts there. The group was most popular in the Northeast and only got airplay on the old free-format non-commercial FM stations of the 70s. Their concerts were truly enchanting.

http://www.anniehaslam.com/
http://www.nlightsweb.com/

[minutus (minutus)]

I was just listening to this song and it reminded me of GGWO:

THE VULTURES FLY HIGH

While in the streets of all our fears
They reign supreme as orders go
They are the last to have their say
And last to know it doesn't matter how you try
It doesn't matter what you say
They always watch with hollow eyes
To put you down they always find a way to criticise

Chorus I:

The vultures fly high
They circle over us all
The vultures fly high
I'll take your hand if you fall

All those who sheltered in their smile
Are scattered here from yesterday
And if the weak are left behind
They have to pay and though you haven't much to give
You know they take it, yours and mine
Sometimes it looks as though we lose
But then in time the finger points at them
The next in line

Repeat Chorus I

[Instrumental break]

Chorus II:

The vultures fly high
They circle over us all
The lonely sigh
I'll take your hand if you fall

Repeat Chorus II twice

Written by Michael Dunford & Betty Thatcher

[lee (lee)]

To answer Roberta question about my current work:

I was awarded an artisit in residence at an artists colony in Ct this time last year. What I produced there has been my inspiration for the following year.
When I returned, I still had 7 months of full time caregiving to give to my mother. After that, it has been a series of stops and starts as well as meeting factnet!
My paintings are all of trees. One thick with underbrush, a pathway barely going through, at an odd angle. Like one would see if one were hanging from a branch midway up a spindly tree.
Another, with diluted paint looking full on at the trees witha pathway going through.....no opening seen.
Another with bright green leaves, limbs branched over into an arch, with green and yellow leaves falling along a rocky path. Spots of blue sky peaking through.
A very dark black/brown drab one with a straight, ridgid pathway, scattered with dirty snow, a threatening sky, masses of branches entwined, old dirty leaves in the forest part. Then pictures of birds done on separate paper tacked on to the face of the canvas. Hawks.
A lovely orange/yellow/green scene of a gently sloping pathway going toward the light....a few misshaped leaves in green falling from the trees along the side of the pathway....not covering the path.
A summer time scene of dappled light along a pathway, light dappling the trees leading to a bright encouraging light at the end of the path.
Another with just one tree with masses of twisted and entertwined branches filling the entire canvas, rocks on the ground.....this isn't complete....can't decide what to do next.
A muted brown/cold grey tones of a forest running horizontally in back of a small stream, in front of it some weirdly shaped trees and lots and lots of underbrush in front of them....no way through.
A line of trees bleached by the winter sun colors are so bleached that its almost abstract.
Then lots of studies done of trees reaching into the winter sky. Some with dried up leaves left on the branches.
The paintings are 2' by 3' Done in an impressionistic/Van goghish/intense color/ some with flat brush strokes, some with more paint.
These are my tame paintings. I do some that are too colorful and take too many liberties with landscape that people tend to find intriguing but not inclined to show or buy. I exagerate sometimes and overstate.....They tend to be somewhat cartoon like. Always with trees, sometimes as a barrior to getting to what is on the other side.
I had a web site but everything there is old and too academic so I took it down recently and am working to get something more current.
People have said my work in the past of people has beenmost interesting. I've been stuck on trees and sometime when I'm not so afraid, I'll go back to painting people. I'd like to do portraits using representational approach but with a twist....the twist showing the spiritual state of the person. Haven't figured out how yet.
Van Gogh sometimes feels very close.
Expressionistic school is comfortable.
Narrative has been an interest.
My philosophy has been that I need to learn to draw first, then take liberties with what I know. Sometimes that feels like a leap too big to take. Making a living isn't the easiest. My weakness! I keep pressing on.
Thanks for asking Roberta

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I want to crawl into your paintings and relax...soak in your colors and see trees like you do.

My sister is a photographer and the lens captures her unique sense of time and angles, somewhat like your paintbrushes must pick up your spirituality and use it to capture the inner life of trees. Fascinating.

I would very much like to know when you post them on a website again, Lee.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Lee, I so love trees. They have such interesting personalities; and they know how to express suffering. My brother David and I had a favorite place, where there were old trees spread apart so they had room to be so big. There was one we called Mog, that had lost one of its huge branches; and it lay by Mog's side. In another place there were these large cedar trees that had a sort of clearing next to the trunk - a perfect place to do a bowl. You could look out while unseen; if anyone even showed up (not while we were there). Other tall pines had branches high up that seemed to be pointing. There were a couple of old foundations overgrown. So what happened? They built a golf course there. A whole new kind of litter!

We had a friend who had red hair and probably was bipolar. He was a real pain. But he once came up with a great statement: 'A world without trees is like a piano without keys.' This is an insight which should never be lost.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah, Do you believe in a collective unconscious, or subconscious? And if so; do you believe it is evolving? I ask this because of your view of the orchestra. I'm thinking a bit along the lines of the way bees are, or ants.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

I so love trees too, Bob!

Lee, I had the privledge of viewing your website. I loved them all! You are an extremely gifted artist, able to elicit a viseral response from the viewer. I look forward to your "twisted" Van Goug-ish portraits. Maybe our FACTNet community will inspire you??

[boddah (boddah)]

you know what? i love trees too. visiting dan's family in new york, we drove from westchester to just inside connecticut to a little french restaurant. we passed these huge old estates, with trees all twisted and freeform, rough bark, like two feet or more in diameter. it had just rained, so the leaves were brilliant and the trunks almost black. i was glued to the window. wanted to hop out of a moving vehicle and live naked in the woods.

anyway,
the word "alternative" means about zip now. it's actually gotten to the point that when a band comes out, the best way to describe it is "kind of a cross between band a and band b." besides, there are so many teen-pop mutants that dress like grownup grungers who are clamoring for the title. guess we'll let the jackals have the name, and go back underground to look for new talent. progresssive? not really.
but then, i'm not sure we've got the definition of progresss right to begin with. maybe that's what went wrong.

bob, yeah, i guess i do believe in a collective- i think it's more like an unconscious. subconscious is more individual or perhaps local, like state's rights are to federal? then of course conscious is mainly individual as far as we can see. but this isn't just made of people, it could draw energy from every single existing particle, which is why i think it doesn't feel like it makes sense all the time. yes, i think it's "evolving," in the sense that it's changing. whether or not that means it's evolving in a way that human beings would call "forward" is unknowable.
it's not exactly like bees or ants, because they have a clear collective goal and clear hierarchy based on physical function. people don't have either. if you're thinking of reproductive differences between genders, bees and ants are wired with more specific differences and can't get around them with technology. not to mention, we can't communicate consciously or (generally) subconsciously with most of the particles in the universe.
so, we come up with our own systems of operation, parts of which work for us and parts of which don't, but they're all lopsided in human favor (even the ones with rotten human rights.) we change them constantly by force or negotiation, mainly in an attempt to change speciific elements that directly affect us-- but also to even out this feeling we have that something's missing. unless there's some confluence of innumerable random events (and hey, it's probably happened before) we won't be able to even that out.

never really liked cs lewis, sorry. even in sixth grade found his lion-king-savior metaphors in narnia incredibly transparent. and naturally a woman was the bad guy. so, i thought, maybe i'll try some other of his works, everyone likes him so much. i don't remember what i read, but it had something to do with a disembodied brain (i think?) and soon degenerated into another savior metaphor. then i gave up. friends with tolkein, right? don't really like tolkein either, because his books too well resemble actual boring historical texts, and because of-- guess what-- his king-savior metaphors.
can i just be entertained by my sci fi/ fantasy reading please? the point is to escape from this world and its conflicts.

[boddah (boddah)]

ps bob- was just on victim mentality thread.
you invited me to comment on your wording-- when an event is referred to as a "witness" it's a cue that you're into another world. your use of "measure" was nicely balanced by "head over heels," though.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah, I haven't read much by him, but 'confluence of innumerable random events' sort of reminds me of one of my son's favorite authors; Terry Prachett.

Do you like P.K.Dick? Anybody who's concerned about the feelings of artificial lifeforms is cool in my book.

[boddah (boddah)]

haven't read p.k. dick, but love asimov and star trek next gen. for same reason (among others.)
have to start working, will check back later.

[boddah (boddah)]

know i'm supposed to be working-- i was--

but i've got pearl jam playing (greatest hits) and there's that song on it, i think it's a remake, "last kiss?" could say the tone is mournful, but even a little upbeat...
the one where there's a fatal car accident described by the driver, a man who's lost the love of his life by crashing into a stopped car. she screams, he passes out, wakes up in the rain with blood in his eyes, a crowd gathered around. he crawls to her and she asks him to hold her a little while, and he kisses her before she dies.
the chorus goes:

oh where oh where can my baby be
the lord took her away from me
she's gone to heaven so i've got to be good
so i can see my baby when i leave this world

horrifically upbeat, childlike denial, transference of guilty feelings into obedient behavior. justification for the worst things that can happen. like the disturbed character in jail with hannibal lecter, who was told by his minister to give the best he had to god, so he brought his mother's head and put it in the offering basket.

this song makes me cry. period. it came out over a year ago and still when i hear it in a department store i cry. grocery store, car, anywhere, doesn't matter. i'm crying now, 'cause i didn't know it was on the cd.

i don't know if my head is in the basket, or i died in the crash, or i'm standing over the dead body surrounded by strangers, or what. maybe all of it. overwhelmed.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

"If you liked 'Last Kiss' you'll love Jan and Dean's classic 'Dead Man's Curve'...and get ready to let the tears flow with the Shangri Las' soulful 'Leader of the Pack'...weep along with Leslie Gore and 'It's My Party' all available when you call for "Now That's What I Call Music Volume 875" Eight great CDs or 15 cassettes...get the full set of 60s tearful favorites and we'll throw in a Ronco Rotisserie...set it and forget it! Call Now...not available in stores, limited time offer."

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on November 23, 2004)

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah, Are you upset with God Himself over what happened to you and your loved ones through GGWO? Are you angry because He didn't protect you better? Many evil things have been done in His name, using Him as a tool for abuse. He Himself is not the abuser. Sorry if this seems confrontational; and you can ignore it if you wish. Your pain just seems so lingeringly present; and I wish it to be eased or erased. I'll pray for you today.

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Boddah, I understand better than you might think.

I felt the same about several of Tori Amos's songs, but in particular "Bells for Her". I saw Tori in concert during my freshman year in college. Two days later I got a call that my father had died in Hungary. Immediately, I could only feel numbness and disbelief, couldn't even cry. Then the college sent me home for a week, though I wanted nothing more than to stay in the warmth of their nest.

It was the loneliest trip of my life. I flew alone for 16 hours, crying pretty much nonstop the whole way. No one talked to me, not even a flight attendant. Tori was my only companion in this private hell, Bells for Her like a funeral song for my father. I arrived home to find out my half sister took everything my father had, and scheduled the funeral so I couldn't be there.

I'm still not over my father's death, nor the ugliness that accompanied it. People at the christian college would say, it's been x years now, God should have taken care of your grief and depression. Please folks, try to understand, sometimes it really has nothing to do with God or religion. Sometimes the roots of pain run deeper or older than our God consciousness.

Boddah please take heart, you are not alone in your suffering. There will be someone to catch you when you fall. Where God fits in all of this, you have to figure out for yourself. I can't promise any answers, only that I'll be there to hold you, if only from a distance.

still your friend,
Lujza

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Lujza, I'm glad you're here; and that you and Boddah found each other. My desire is to help her if I can; or at least to be a friend. I know solutions aren't simple, and I don't seek to pull her into another box. I'd just like to try to understand her pain. I don't like to see others suffer. Maybe I can't help at all; and that's okay; but I do care.

As an older adult (52) who has my own 25 year old son who suffered greatly from our involvement in TBS/GGWO; perhaps I'm also trying to understand him. He's not very open about his own sense of pain, but it is there. He didn't ask to be there. He was just our kid. It could have been worse. At least we didn't run with 'the flock' down to Baltimore.

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Dear Bob,

I apologize, I didn't mean to imply that I doubted your good intentions at all. I just wanted to give Boddah a reply that might perhaps resonate closer with her. She and I attended the same church for 7 years...she was one of my best friends there. We were both teenagers together in the church, and I remember how tired we got of the pre-packaged Bible answers we got for every question or problem we posed. I'm really sorry if the part about God sounded flippant or cynical, because it wasn't meant to be. But please consider that your perspective on the same issue (suffering) might be vastly different than, say, your son's (he's about our age). Exactly because he or Boddah didn't choose to be with the ministry, they just went along with their parents. That was an excellent point and I'm very glad you conceded to that. And kudos to you for having the courage not to follow the mass exodus to Balto! Anyway, even though we younguns believe in and love God, we might have more complicated theories than people of your generation do. This is not to dismiss the wisdom of our elders, only to indicate that sometimes people who had similar experiences (Boddah, your son, me) need to hear from *each other* in order to heal.

Thank you for your kind words and I apologize for any offense.

Lujza

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"sometimes it really has nothing to do with God or religion. Sometimes the roots of pain run deeper or older than our God consciousness."

For reasons I won't explain, I know exactly what you mean by these words.

Sometimes healing isn't an option. Time, prayer, faith, age, experiences and distance...can't bind some wounds. Nor it it necessary that they should. I have learned more from the deepest wounds than I ever thought possible. Maybe someday the pain will fade a bit, but I am not sure I want it to heal completly.

Some days I do, more than anything. Then I remember the price was high and the pain isn't just a memory...it still beats like my heart.

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Hmmm rjfellnard,

I didn't exactly mean that healing is not an option. I meant more that it's not a faith or religious issue...it's a very real mental health issue. Frankly, I do not believe that prayer or scripture alone will provide the healing. I think therapy can be very helpful if you find the right person. For me, christian counseling made the process more difficult. I think secular therapy can actually help you step back and observe your religious experience from the outside. No, I do not mean giving up your faith, but discussing and analyzing it with someone outside of it. But you have to make sure the person is an experienced and knowledgeable therapist.

I also wanted to say that I think talking with people on these boards who have walked away from GGWO and experienced the same abuse can be very therapeutic. It can feel like reopening old wounds, but I think it can be a cathartic experience that will help your healing. For years I cut myself off from all my old friends, I wanted nothing to do with GGWO. Now I found this place and the conversation is painful, yet exhilarating at the same time.

And to add to the topic of this board, so is music and writing and art. Get a notebook and write, write, write out those feelings. Or paint them or sing them or crochet them, however you love expressing your feelings the best. No, it will not provide a miracle cure...there is no such thing. But it will help you face your monsters and thus defeat them.

Healing exists, but it takes years and years. I wish you peace, rjfellnard, and all of you.

Lujza

(Message edited by melymbrosia on November 24, 2004)

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

"Nor it it necessary that they should. I have learned more from the deepest wounds than I ever thought possible. Maybe someday the pain will fade a bit, but I am not sure I want it to heal completly."

you are right, rjfellnard, and I thank you for sharing this to remind me that pain is part of what shapes our identity and makes us stronger and more compassionate. I hope you didn't mind my previous post, I was just trying to think up ideas to help you and everyone else who might read.

(Message edited by melymbrosia on November 24, 2004)

[boddah (boddah)]

bob you've never offended me
lujza thank you
jim, please please go away
i need this
i can't

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Boddah, you are always welcome. I guess you're back in your real life. Try and get some rest or some work done. Hug the cats, they can be very comforting. May you have peace, my friend...you are loved.

(Message edited by melymbrosia on November 24, 2004)

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Lujza, I love your name. I took no offense. I'm just continually seeking clarity. I agree that Christian counseling can in itself muddle things more. I don't (necessarily) think it's the inclusion of God in the mix so much as the attempt to rule out anything else being involved.

I have a nephew who was diagnosed as bipolar a few years ago, and I took a course in mental illnesses and read a bit specifically about bipolar. I'm currently reading a book by Lauren Slater, a psychologist from Boston. As I've studied these conditions, I've become convinced that we all suffer degrees of these things; most of it undiagnosed. I find the connection between them and creativity to be profound. I believe that there's something good hidden/not hidden within both bipolar and schizophrenia (and perhaps the others as well) that I think we should be trying to get at. The drugs seem to stifle it; and I find that tragic. It's as if we're taking away the very cream of who the person is in an attempt to make them 'normal'. I find this unacceptable. I can understand taking 'recreational' drugs to expand awareness and spur creativity; but that's a whole different thing. What I currently believe is that a healthy and honest combination of therapy with prayer from people with a properly balanced perspective on 'the whole problem' might work for some people. As a believer who feels 'called' to intercession and sees these things; I'd like to be involved in trying this. I think those who pray would have to be subject to the therapist as the 'primary care giver'. Does this sound reasonable from your perspective?

Many famous people in the arts (Byron, Shelley, Schumann, Van Gogh,etc.) are reputed to have had these kinds of conditions; and much of their artistic sense came directly from their illness. I think maybe rather than 'taking it away' or throwing a rug of drugs over it, the condition should somehow be harnassed; employed. Otherwise there's a horrible sense of loss. if you watch the movie 'Mr. Jones' starring Richard Gere, you can pick up on the frustration of this.

Additionally, there seems to often be a connection between these conditions and religious and spiritual experiences or delusions. In the circles I travel, we've had three people in their 40s or 50s who are believers and have had episodes recently. Two of them were previously undiagnosed. I'm not sure about the third. And two of them had strong spiritual experiences of deliverance or repentance just prior to their breakdown. What does that tell us? I'm not sure, but it's interesting.

Another thing I've distinctly noticed is that people who seek after and maintain positions of authority often are obsessive-compulsive; and they make terrible leaders. The best leaders seem to be those who don't want to do it.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I also just had a thought about depression as a separate condition. I realize that it can be totally disabling; and it's hard to think anything about that degree of depression is good. But I think that there are places short of that where depression sort of streamlines our thinking and helps free us of the normal group-think that we're always having thrown at us from all sides. This was my experience when I went through my own spiritual crisis when I was 39. Everything that was wrong in the stuff I'd been taught in TBS/GGWO seemed to rise to the surface and be highlighted. In my suffering I wasn't willing to accept all the mind games and pretense and distortion. I still was quiet about it for years, except to my wife; but something in me had broken free. And that was a good thing; even though I was 'being bad'. When it was time to speak up to others, I had already thought through a lot of this stuff, and could share my conclusions with others. They found it very helpful; and were going through the same process I had. I came at all this from out of a place of being very shy and unassertive. Their response to what I had to give helped give me growing confidence and faith in God's inner sense of guidance. The Bible had less taught attachments (ruts) for me to fall into as I read it. And I became even more open to seeing His influences in 'secular' places.

Part of what I'm doing on this message board is to share as testimony my own path with God; in hopes that others will see how diverse His places and 'requirements' for us can be. We are not stamped out with a cookie cutter. My relationship with God belongs to Him and to me. I'm responsible to walk in what He gives me. It's not some twelve steps thing. Every child a parent has is different, and needs different kinds of things. You don't treat each one the same. You can't. That wouldn't be fair to the unique personality they have. God doesn't treat us all the same either. He uses different stuff, varying methods. He wants to be personal for you. He'll show you things He might not show most others. And His response to you can be very unique. What you expect has a lot to do with what you get.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

melymbrosia

I did understand that you were writing relating to mental health issues. I have been through exit counseling, and after a few years of too many blows to the psyche...nearly dying, mother dying, life shortening chronic illness, I have been medicated for clinical depression, anxiety and PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). It took a few years of therapy and study, meditation and love from my husband and friends to be in the better place I find myself in now.

I am not a person who grew up as a child in the ministry, but I fear I lost my spiritual child trust in TBS/GGWO. I saw others in pain and looking back I wish I could have helped them.

That is why I think that keeping some of the pain is necessary for growth as well as healing. It is also why I write my books, plays and poetry. I find it makes the pain real enough to examine, the words on paper give it shape, form and reality.

Healing is perhaps something God IS rather than DOES or GIVES. Perhaps a burning bush that is not consumed is what I wish to emulate...to burn with advocacy but not consumed by my own pain or that of others.

It is 8 AM...perhaps too early by such musings...

blessings to you...

RJ

[karen (karen)]

Hi Lujza (I also like your name),

I've read your posts with great interest and compassion for what you suffered in the ministry. I am glad you have found Boddah after all these years. Connecting with others who shared my experiences has brought me a surprising amount of healing. Unfortunately, many of those who were actually my friends during my years in the ministry have either disappeared or are still part of it.

There was one thing you said that I feel compelled to respond to. You believe that individuals who are part of older generations may have a “less complicated” world view/belief system. May I respectfully suggest that perhaps your data is insufficient for drawing this conclusion?

I do think that those still caught up in the ministry or in similar groups may organize reality in convenient categories of black and white. But many “older” people who have left this pseudo-reality understand that the world is not so easily understood by applying pat answers to complex questions.

As I’ve shared before on FactNet (and I apologize to those of you who have heard my story before), I left the ministry back in ’88 (after 8 years), and joined another fundamentalist church where I lost my faith completely. The things I had just accepted as a young Christian would not suffice any longer. My pastor didn’t know how to engage with my honest questions and doubts and would just respond by quoting Scripture. Eventually I could not hold onto my faith and let it go. At first, I was devastated. But then, I was deeply relieved to be able to face the world with no preconceptions.

I enrolled in college and absolutely loved the freedom to explore all avenues of knowledge without the resistance I had encountered as a Christian. As I told Boddah in an earlier post, the Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment were not just historical periods to me; I experienced them as if I were a member of those cultures.

However, after being immersed in academia for a long time, I began to see its limits. Since I’d been a “victim” of group-think and struggled to free myself, I was hyper-sensitive to the subtle process of indoctrination. (Have you noticed how different most freshmen think from upper classmen, grad. students and faculty? Some of the changes are good and necessary: Prejudice and muddy thinking are exposed; analytical skills are developed. And students are testing their values and premises—often for the very first time. But in many cases, they merely exchange one system for another.) I began to notice how homogeneous university culture is in many ways and felt resistance when I approached some issues from other angles. It’s always this “resistance” that sets off bells for me.

Anyway, as much as I value my education and many aspects of university culture, I realized my deepest needs were not being addressed—though I couldn’t quite articulate the source of my discontent.

During this time, I had a growing consciousness of a presence, which I refused to acknowledge as the Christian God. This presence began to reveal itself to me on a daily basis and I grew to trust in it. However, I reached a point where I recognized there was only so much the presence could show me without an objective source of information. And I reasoned that if God existed and He was as interested and involved with human beings as He had demonstrated to me, then He must have provided more than I presently had. I was so hungry to know more about Him. You could say I had exhausted all my spiritual stores and was compelled to find another food source. Eventually, I began to explore different spiritual philosophies. However, even when these systems of thought appealed to me intellectually and on an emotional level, they did not resonate as truth. I would stand in bookstores and libraries and search for writings that echoed the voice in my spirit.

Then circumstances kept bringing me back to the threshhold of Christianity, but I would not pass through the door. I abhorred Christian culture. But God began finally to bring Christians to me in whom I could recognize His Spirit. Finally I acknowledged we knew the same God. It has not been an easy process for me. Although I am not a fundamentalist, I have a growing confidence in the Bible. It’s just that the way God speaks to me through the Scriptures is not systematic in the way that many study theology. It’s much more organic than that for me. And He speaks often through other sources, like literature, music and nature.

If I were to categorize myself (which I try not to do), I find the emergent/post-modern movement in Christianity most reflective of my beliefs and attitudes. Many of its adherents have “emerged” from both fundamentalism and liberalism. What I find appealing about their approach is a respect for historical Christianity, dependence upon both the Word AND the Spirit, and engagement with the “real world” in terms of culture and education.

I’m not sure if any of this will make sense to you, but I wanted you to realize that contributors to this forum are in a variety of places, in terms of our faith and understanding. And finally, I wanted to share one last thought: a curious thing I’ve discovered as I’ve navigated through the myriad shades of grey in my field of vision is that some of the most profound truths are astonishingly simple.

Thanks for posting, Lujza. I do hope you’ll contine to be a part of this strange little community that we call FactNet.

-Karen

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Dear Karen,

First of all, thank you so much for sharing your story...I loved hearing from you. I apologize for that comment...I certainly did not mean to make a blanket generalization that all you older people are simplistic...at all. Rather I should have said that people like Boddah and me who were kids in the ministry might have a very *different* perspective than people like Boddah's parents who had spent decades in the ministry. I guess I got so tired of being slapped with canned christianese answers -- not just from GGWO but also my college and others -- that I had a knee-jerk response there. My experience has been that people our age tend to be a little more liberal and flexible about our beliefs while still considering ourselves Christians. I loved that you mentioned postmodernism, because that's exactly what I had in mind. I think there *is* such a thing as postmodern Christian thinking, and I'm glad I'm not the only one. I've often been accused of not being a Christian anymore because of my liberal views and, most of all, for being gay.

Lujza

(My real name is Hungarian...my screen name is the heroine of Virginia Woolf's first novel.)

(Message edited by melymbrosia on November 24, 2004)

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Lujza, If you don't mind telling me; I would be interested in why you are gay, and what qualities women have that you find attractive. I myself am much more geared toward women than men; and my major relationships are all with women. If you'd rather answer through the mail, my address is bob.brinton@verizon.net

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Bob,

I don't see the point to these questions and frankly, they seem intrusive. What if I asked you why you are straight and what made women attractive to you? We would both answer well, this is the way I've been all my life -- there isn't really a reason. I do not want this conversation to turn into a debate about homosexuality. I only mentioned being gay as an example of an issue that more traditional vs. more postmodern christians disagree about. I'm not here to discuss homosexuality, but rather our experiences in GGWO. If you don't mind, Bob, I don't really want to get into this with a stranger. However, maybe you will consider the possibility that a person can be gay and Christian at the same time. I'm not here to convince you of that, just as an example that it can happen.

Blessings,
Lujza

[word_of_god (word_of_god)]

Greetings,

Yes Lujza, it is possible to be a christian and gay...it is also possible to be a christian and be a drunk, it is also possible to be a christian and be a thief, it is also possible to be a christian and be a murderer.

Christians are still sinners and homosexuality is a sin whether or not you go to GGWO.

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Well people,

I did not come here to be called names. If you cannot tolerate gay people, you're entitled to that opinion. As you probably know, there are different schools of thought in Christianity regarding this issue. But that's not the topic of this thread.

Word_of_God, welcome to Factnet, your first post is intriguing. If you are looking for a thread to debate homosexuality, or to call people names, this is not it. Allow me to disagree with your above post, and please let us move on.

What were we talking about again? Postmodern thinking, healing of the soul, and the role of art therein... Roberta, Karen, Boddah, thank you for all your kind words.

Oh, and happy Thanksgiving, everyone...may you find peace in the time spent with your families.

Lujza

(Message edited by melymbrosia on November 24, 2004)

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

It is fascinating to read the posts of those of you who grew up in the cult. I joined up in high school and went off to 'carleluia's cult college' the Summer after I graduated.

This board to me is about exposing a cult and healing some old wounds. A remark made by an anonymous poster or one using a pseudonym or even a self proclaimed expert does not change who I am before God. This is a long winded way of saying don't let posters on Factnet hurt your feelings.

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Thanks Louise, I appreciate that. I like your comment "does not change who I am before God". I also noticed that the warrior did not have the guts to sign his name... Anyway thank you again, and I hope we can continue this thread without this sort of ugliness.

Lujza
(did you know we're namesakes? Lujza means Louise in Hungarian http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif )

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

That's cool to know my name in Hungarian.

Did not Mike Walsh after he abandoned his family in the Berkshires go to Hungary?

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Louise,

I don't recall that name - when did he come to Hungary? I was with the ministry there from 1991 to 1998, but then, we had many foreigners there for just a short time. This is not the same as Pastor Walsh who married that Finnish lady Marjukka, is it? That's the only Walsh I know of. Check out the Budapest thread for info on people who were there. Also on that thread, my friend Boddah wrote a lot about growing up in the ministry. I'm writing you a long post about what that was like...hang on!

Lujza

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

By the way, Louise, growing up in GGWO was quite interesting, especially looking back on it now.

Boddah and I are the same age and went to the same church and school in Hungary, but our situations were very different. She was a missionary kid whose parents were in the ministry. I was a native Hungarian who joined the church at age 13 on my own, quite against my parents' wishes. So while she had the GGWO surveillance imposed on her even at home, I only had it at church, and submitted to it quite willingly. The reason was that my parents' alcoholism and abuse made my family a very cold place indeed, and I turned to the church for a family substitute.

As many of you mentioned, I was often told that the Body was my *real* family, and that I owed my primary allegiance to them, my spiritual family. The missionaries whom I grew to trust and respect unconditionally, told me I obeyed God if I did what they told me, not my parents. So when my parents objected to my plans to attend Bible college and become a missionary, I was told to ignore their protests and just pray for their salvation. The missionaries showered me with verbal and physical affection, and I became very emotionally dependent on them. Unlike Boddah, who was not allowed access to most non-christian entertainment, I willingly abstained from the secular arts (which I grew up with and loved). I was taught at church that would purify my heart and make me a better christian -- so I did all they told me.

I devoted more and more time to the ministry, but it seemed like they kept coming up with more activities to keep members busy. It seemed like they wanted people to socialize exclusively within "the Body" and spend all their free time with church activities. I had always been discouraged from being friends with nonchurch people. I attended every service and outreach and but if I missed something by chance, people (often peers) would call me or confront me at church, and question me about my devotion to God.

There was a lot of emphasis (like everywhere in GGWO) in submitting to the pastor's authority and never, ever questioning him. There were also more and more messages about the evils of of an "independent spirit" that would want to do anything outside of GGWO. I felt that the church wanted to isolate people from the outside world so they would be easier to manipulate. There was a definite herd mentality in the congregation: if you didn't do what everyone else did, you were accused of going against God's will.

Boddah can correct me on this one, but I often felt that while many of the missionaries (like Boddah's parents) learned to speak Hungarian and were very culturally sensitive, many others kept a distance from us "natives". Some of these missionaries built a little American island for themselves and seemed to be in Hungary only for the glory of being "in the mission field". I'll never deny learning most of my English at church, but rigorously kept up with my first language. But I often heard Hungarians from the church speaking "Hunglish" during church activities: a broken mixture of the two peppered with GGWO jargon in both languages. That makes me shudder, because I think missionaries should learn the local language if they want to minister to a different culture, and *not* ruin the local culture and language.

Boddah and I both attended GGCA in Hungary, and although she graduated before me, I think we both had a pretty good experience there. I think the school did a great job of bringing together kids from many different countries and faith backgrounds. However, it always bothered me that several of the teachers were unqualified and pretty much incompetent. Also, some of our A-Beka textbooks (biology, history etc) were frighteningly dogmatic, presenting conservative christian and republican beliefs as scientific or historical facts.

There wasn't one single factor that made me want to leave, but I definitely remember certain events. When Boddah and her best friend -- both dear to my heart -- decided to enter secular college, the missionaries began an immediate and severe smear campaign against them. I was told that they were outside of God's will and that I should not be their friend anymore, because they were bad influence. This was probably the first time I questioned my mentors, rebelled against them, and stood up for my friends.

Then the following summer I attended the convention in Baltimore, and a frightening event ensued. I was staying with an adult church member I had known very well, who did not have a car. Because of the transportation problem, we attended three services a week, but not raps or other events. So a missionary I was particularly close to confronted me about why I didn't attend every day. When I explained, she suggested I move somewhere closer to the church, which I politely refused. Then another, male missionary called me to Pastor Duff's office and they both interrogated me about my disobedience. They told me I had no choice, I had to do as they said.

That was the point when I said Enough, I can't let these people control my life. I kept attending GGCA, and phased out rather slowly, spending time with the school but not the church. I let them believe I was just another godless GGCA kid who went her own way, like most kids at an international school do. After graduation, I cut off all contact with my former friends, and intentionally burned my bridges. It was very hard because church was the only social support I'd ever had.

I really feel for Boddah especially because I have felt a little bit of the displacement of missionary kids, stuck between two cultures. My background was Hungarian, but at church and college I spoke English and my friends were Americans. I feel like I've lost my roots, not sure where I belong anymore. I've been struggling with clinical depression for years, but have just now found a therapist promising any concrete help. I know it's going to take years to deal with all this plus the family trauma, but it's a start.

So this is the story of my journey with GGWO. I hope by writing my story I help not only myself, but also others who may have experienced the same. Peace and blessings on all of you.

Lujza

(Message edited by melymbrosia on November 25, 2004)

[boddah (boddah)]

anonymous homophobe, take it someplace else.

hi.

so, i'd been letting my guard down, thinking that i could find a community to lean on here (even if just temporarily) which i really wanted because i've felt so disconnected from life. i have a very solid and convincing guard, it's how i go to work and school without everyday difficulties causing me to implode. the freedom of speech here has been very welcome.

i realize i'm the only one (that i know of) in this forum who's a self-proclaimed atheist, and this may throw people for a loop since you're all trying to create a bond in the Spirit etc. i'm (as usual) sort of a fifth wheel. but i'll tell you this, i haven't been able to discuss/debate/explain beliefs with anyone with this much comfort since high school. design students from the 'burbs haven't proven likely to want to discuss this stuff.
you've been seeing me as i used to be, before the proverbial wrench fell into the works. before the right side of my brain took over during anxiety attacks and i became a terrified speechless child with no ability to tell people what i was experiencing. none of the descriptions of feelings i've posted here were even possible eight months ago. i didn't have the words, i had to draw it out with crayon.

and guys, utopia aside, a lot of that transformation has been due to medication. i love my therapist, she's a great friend, but do you realize how much it would cost for her to be a "primary caregiver"?? i can barely afford two hours a week. that, and she has no power to reach in and alter my brain chemistry. whether you've been traumatized or born with a predisposition to depression or both, some of this is chemical, folks. yes, artists may be sensitive to this type of condition, but as far as "harnessing" it-- i've done that. i put every ounce of illness i had into my college fiction writing. it was fine writing, and i felt almost uninterruptedly like jumping the hell out of my skin. van gogh shot himself, you know. and that was after the whole ear thing.
when i told my dad i was in therapy, he said i hadn't been through anything that most people haven't. i believe the fallacy there is evident. next reaction was, depressed? you're just artistic, you should value your gift. and i do.
but when you're lying on the kitchen floor making nicks in your forearm with a coathanger you're in no position to lick the stamps on a stack of outgoing stories. no matter how many creative people drink themselves to death or od or commmit more blatant suicide, people can't stop thinking it's romantic. it isn't. sense of loss due to medication? i'm being medicated because i have an overdeveloped sense of loss. i can write about it without being in it, i have a memory.

the other night i had a really bad reaction to hearing that song unexpectedly. dan was asleep, too late to call the doctor unless i was actually dying, didn't know what to do, that used to be a cutting scenario but i hadn't done that for a while, held out..typed... needed encouragement. for the most part i've found you all to be very supportive. i've mentioned in the past that i didn't expect that, and am thankful for it.

anyway, i was blindsided by jim's comment, didn't know he was around or i wouldn't have posted when i was vulnerable. then that was followed with bob's (well intentioned) questioning about god.

bob and lujza, you both made the stereotypical assumption, the assumption i grew up with: that atheists don't exist, everyone's born with an elusive "god consciousness" and some choose to ignore or reject it, and that's why it's justifiable to toss them into an eternal pit of fire. or in my case, you seem to think my trauma has somehow short circuited my god consciousness, but it's just a matter of time before i find out where god fits into this puzzle of life.

bob, unless you disrespect what i've been telling you, why ask an atheist if she's angry at god? i don't think you're against me in any way, any more than my father is. it's just frustrating that everyone's so grieved for my sake and no matter what i say, everyone's got the same party line. the reason the song i mentioned upsets me is this: i hate that people with powerful pain are expected to feel better because concerned loved ones assure them that an invisible force they can't feel is looking out for the world. i understand that you are trying to help, that's why it's so upsetting. there's no one, human or otherwise, to be entirely angry with.

so the other day i lost my sense of connection for a bit. song upset me, right brain took over, room looked strange, couldn't stop crying, felt completely alone. did that for a while, then went and woke up dan. today i ended up cutting again. until now i haven't been able to touch the computer.

overreaction? yes, of course it is. i have a strong fear of abandonment and betrayal, that's what i'm trying to solve. the visiting relatives are not helping.
but i'm gonna try this again, because on good days it appears to have the ability to make me feel less like dying.

i'm apologizing now to anyone who feels threatened by my tone. don't be. needed to say this or i couldn't have continued to converse honestly. if you want to disagree or chew me out, be my guest, i'll do my best to listen.

[boddah (boddah)]

lujza, you know the joke:

q) what language do they speak in heaven?

a) english, because americans can't learn anything else.

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

I thought it was Hungarian because it took an
eternity to learn...

This is one of those times when I feel anything I could say would sound shallow and stupid and inadequate. And yet I want to say something because I can't be there to hug you. Please forgive these incoherent ramblings.

So Boddah, you feel like a fifth wheel? Welcome to my life, as you could observe a few posts above. No, I did not know you were an atheist, but I'm glad you feel safe enough to be honest. What could I say to prove that I do NOT look down on you now that I know? Will you please take my word for it? And can you forgive me for believing differently than you do...

When you quit typing the other day, I was so scared because I thought you were going to cut yourself or worse. I've never done that, but I know what darkness and pain are. I wish I could call you on the phone and we could talk. I'm not trying to be intrusive, but I'm desperately wanting to reach out and grasp your hand, and the distance frustrates me to no end.

"i hate that people with powerful pain are expected to feel better because concerned loved ones assure them that an invisible force they can't feel is looking out for the world."
I know exactly what you mean, that's how I was treated at church and college about anything that bothered me, from my alcoholic mother to my dead father and everything in between.

People who have never dealt with depression simply do not understand what it's like. They don't know what it's like to live in a cloud of darkness all the time, to feel unable to get out of bed all day, to not find meaning in *anything* you do. I've been struggling to explain it to my mother, and her response is that I'm just looking for attention. I first tried to kill myself at age 12, but never was diagnosed with or treated for depression until college.

I did make some stereotypical assumptions, Boddah, but not the one you mentioned. Far be it from me to say *everyone* has a God consciousness! Maybe my wording was wrong...I like using long fancy words, you know... But didn't you have such a consciousness at some point in your life? Anyway, I was trying to explain to Bob that your present pain is not a religoius issue.

I never thought atheists don't exist--I was raised by them. My parents made a lot of mistakes, but that had nothing to do with their atheism. Joy was an atheist when I fell in love with her, and even though she enjoys church, she's not too sure what she believes in. Yes, we were brainwashed to believe that atheists go to hell. Some of us have gone beyond that belief; some have not.

I am one of the former, and if this will make me a target for more flaming, let 'em come. No, Boddah, I do not believe that atheists go to hell...this whole literal heaven-and-hell game is equally dubious in my opinion. If I believed that, I probably would have missed out on the one great love of my life...also given up on my mother who has hurt me worse than I could ever describe, yet I still care about her.

I don't know why I said all that except that it's the only way I know how to reach out and try to touch you. I wish I could just hold you and cry with you instead. I don't know if any of this helps at all, but here it is anyway.

I love you,
Lujza

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Lujza, Please forgive me if I've offended you. The things I asked were not meant to be an attack or to expose you. I asked out of a desire to understand. And I am particularly interested in it because you are a believer. I was not questioning your belief. It 'feels' spiritually evident to me.

I have thought that those who are gay may see their reasons as not all being the same. Some may think it genetic; some may consider it choice. There may be other reasons. I don't see dislike of men in your posts; so I thought maybe there were qualities in some women that were not found in men or very rarely. I see my own preference for connections with women as friends as perhaps an area where we intellectually find common ground.

Reasons I prefer women? I prefer gentleness to aggression. I think men are more manipulative. These things I'm saying are gerneralities and not meant to pigeonhole every individual. I like women who are intelligent, loving and kind; who give of themselves for others, but not to the point of opening themselves up to abuse or manipulation. I like women who think for themselves and are not intimidated by men; who realize they are not inferior to men (and they're not). I like women who are willing to speak out without having to constantly be talking. I don't like either men or women to talk incessantly without interesting content. I don't like cliches or boxed thinking. I love gracefulness and graciousness.

I am straight because women appeal to me and men don't, at least sexually. I guess maybe the 'why' question was kind of dumb. Sorry.

I'll stop talking about this line of thought on this thread unless you want me to continue. Sorry if this has added more fuel rather than clearing the air. I'm not here to judge you, and welcome your continued presence.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah, I accept your atheism. In earlier years you considered yourself a Christian. As a refinement of my earlier question; was there a period of anger at God that preceded your taking on an atheistic view? That would seem a reasonable progression.

I just want to stop for a moment here and say that in trying to understand both Lujza and you as 'whole people', I'm trying to learn to understand others who have similar views on life and themselves and others. I love you both and have been praying for you. And you know, Boddah, research has been done that has found prayer from all different kinds of faiths to be effective. There could be various reasons for that which might have nothing to do with 'higher powers'; so maybe I can be of some help to you even if I'm wrong about all the God and Spirit stuff. I want you guys to have peace and healing. It's not just about connection to God.

I recognize value in medication; and perhaps some conditions can not be properly dealt with without its continued use. I never advise people to not take what's been prescribed. I'm no expert.

In suggesting the scenario I did with a therapist as 'primary care giver', my thought was that there are some therapists who would be willing to do some experimental research on the side without pay out of a desire to help people who may seem beyond reach; or to help them in an improved way. Or perhaps there are some who would be willing to subsidize it. It would be perhaps a better use of 'tithes and offerings' than is sometimes made. Or maybe a government grant. My thoughts were not really to do with that end of it. I don't do fundraising. But there are people who do and are effective at it. Sometimes industries or businesses fund things.

I am aware of chemical aspects, and that the brains of some sufferers are actually physically different. There's genetic difference also. In harnessing I was talking about finding ways to strain out the positive elements so the individual can retain them. I look for the negative elements (and there are many; some side effects of the medication) to somehow be removed or changed to downplay or erase their harm. I'm looking at all this intuitively. Maybe what I'm inwardly reaching for isn't possible. But I believe it is. I just think people in the field may not be reaching high enough. That's not meant as judgment on them. They operate out of what they know. But new things are usually discovered by those willing to step beyond the norm and the accepted. Maybe someone in a position to initiate some of these things will read this note. My voice means nothing to the psychiatric field.

I don't have anything to help you with but prayer and words. I'm not trying to force-feed you a connection with God. I have probably been guilty of assuming that's where you'll end up. But I can't know that, and accept you as you are. Actually, I have an older brother who went to a Bible school (Moody) and intended to go as a missionary to Israel; but is now an 'almost' atheist, thinking that 'maybe or maybe not, and if so maybe not good'.

I have never been depressed to the point of being unable to get out of bed; but I did study that kind of depression. And during my difficult period I saw everything as meaningless. It was as if all color and value had left existence. I hated myself and my life and strongly wanted it to end. I often went whole nights without sleep, probably even consecutive ones. For months I prayed for death and drove very dangerously. It freaked out my wife. The only reason I didn't suicide was because I didn't want to hurt other people; and it would have deeply wounded so many. If I had decided to, it would have happened. None of that 'for attention' stuff. Love, Bob

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Lack of understanding and unacceptance, intolerance and self-righteousness are to be found in every sector of every society it seems.

When I first came to this board, I made the unforgivable sin of saying that after I left TBS/GGWO I decided to take the Bible education I had, see how many courses I could challenge (take the final exam for and be given the credit) and get a diploma, as I refused to graduate from TBS. I had gotten to the point at TBS of frustration and anger...they would never let a woman preach...not biblical they said. I had come to disagree. So I finished through correspondence classes with an Episcopal church (OMG! They tolerate gay and women preachers!!!). I was then, although I hadn't asked for it, offered ordination. For my own satisfaction, I took it. I knew I could preach, I felt that I had what it took to be a liberal/post-modern pasrtor etc.

I never intended to do anything with it, as I am not a fan of organized religion. I did it for my own sense of completion and satisfaction.

Well, I was called every name you can thin of by the male members of the board here. I had committed the unpardonable sin. I also had the balls to say that I didn't think the Bible needed to be taken literally to be beautiful...I don't believe it is innerant or that it needs to be to be to be a way to understand God....another of the unforgivables.

I am chronically ill with a life shortening disease that has complettely destroyed my immune system...meaning I seldonm leave my home, or allow many visitors in. Then the accusation from the hyper Christians was that I was forsaking the assembling of myself with the church. Oh yes...I have Muslim friends, which seems to be a big no no since 9/11. I also don't believe that homosexuality is a sin. (That always rattles their cages) Needless to say I was not, nor am I often one of the more popular people here at times, at least with some.

I said all that to say this...boddah and Lujza, your life journey's are what they are. You both have traveled far, have suffered, have learned, experienced joy and the journey is a long one. Things will sometimes change for the better, sometimes for the worse...but change is learning, change is growth. Anally retentive Christians, Muslims, Americans, etc all have an ax to grind and they tend sometimes to be violent, crude and cruel about it because they are convinced that they are on the side of right and God is theirs. They have him neatly tied up in a finite box so they can control him and others by using him. I believe in an infintie and grander creator than this small one they have corraled.

I would say to ignore them, but that isn't really possible is it. I am learning to be tolerant of those who despise me for my beliefs even though they don't have what it takes in general to be tolerant of me. Some are, some aren't, but they have their journey to consider as well. There was a time when I was a fundamentalist Christian but my journey as taught me that I cannot connect with God, life or my own heart that way, so I put that experience behind me and moved on.

I aedmire you both for your candor and the chance to get to know you even if it is just a little here on FactNet. Your telling of your struggles have reached so many and for that I am grateful.

I have a thread...it used to be here till I got sabotaged, for kids in and out of the ministry that have suffered sexual abuse in the cult. I encourage them to seek help, I provide them numbers to call. Some are cutters, bulimic, anorexic, have attempted suicide either overtly or passively...and I some have told me they have been reading your posts on FactNet when they can. You have encouraged them to seek help, and for that ....well, you just can't know how much I appreciate the fact you're here. I think they see themselves in you somehow...reaching for answers, reaching for life...and they also want to get free of the abuse and see if they can fly.

So...keep flying? Be who you are and enjoy the journey when you can. I want to share with you one of my favorite poems...

ITHAKA

As you set out for Ithaka
hope your road is a long one,
full of adventure, full of discovery.
Laistrygonians, Cyclops,
angry Poseidon...don't be afraid of them:
you'll never find things like that on your way
as long as you keep your thoughts raised high,
as long as a rare excitement
stirs your spirit and your body.
Laistrygonians, Cyclops,
wild Posiedon...you won't encounter them
unless you bring them along inside your soul,
unless your soul sets them up in front of you.

Hope your road is a long one.
May there be many summer mornings when,
with what pleasure, what joy,
you enter harbors you're seeing for the first time;
may you stop at Phoenician trading stations
to buy fine things,
mother of pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
sensual perfume of every kind...
as many sensual perfumes as you can;
and may you visit many Egyptian cities
to learn and go on learning from their scholars.

Keep Ithaka always in your mind.
Arriving there is what you're destined for.
But don't hurry the journey at all.
Better if it lasts for years,
so you're old by the time you reach the island,
wealthy with all you've gained on the way,
not expecting Ithaka to make you rich.
Ithaka gave you the marvelous journey.
Without her you wouldn't have st out.
She has nothing left to give you now.

And if you find her poor, Ithaka won't have fooled you.
Wise as you will have become, so full of experience,
you'll have understood by then what these Ithakas mean.

written by C P Cavafy

RJ

(Message edited by Rjfernalld on November 25, 2004)

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I really seem to be considered by the more fundamentalist elements of the board to be pretty radical. I have no problem with women pastors, even as head pastors; and consider that we can't prove the inerrancy of the whole Bible as we have it. We had huge arguments over this. Roberta posted a great thread on it that was long, but which the fundamentalists didn't seem to have any answers for. The best points in disagreements often go unadressed by those on the other side of the issue. They/we just ignore them and hope they get quickly buried. It goes both ways. Very rarely will anyone say, 'Oh, you're right and I was wrong' about anything. It's very much like political discussion. People choose their own cocoons.

Anyway, I've mostly tried to support Roberta, but not dishonestly. I'm not a 'sides' person.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

*HUG* Yup...Bob's one of the most real people I "know".

[karen (karen)]

Boddah,

I would be lying if I didn't say I am frightened for you. You are such an amazing woman--intelligent, self-aware, gracious and compassionate--it is almost incomprehensible that you should struggle so with the impulse to self-destruction. And though I have had my own bouts with depression (probably clinical at one time), I don't understand what you are going through. All I can do is express my willingness to hear and understand.

What I’ve come to see is that there is no community of people exactly as I am. The best I can hope for is a small group of individuals who see something of value in me in spite of the inevitable difference. And I hope I can be that kind of support for others.

A big issue for me is living my life with authenticity. As I dare to strip away façade, I elicit one of two responses from people—a deer in the headlights sort of fear or the possibility of genuine relationship. As a younger person, the cost of authenticity was too great for me. Nowadays, I have no energy for anything else.

Boddah, I know you have many people who care for you and I am merely a voice in cyberspace, but if you ever want to contact me directly, here is my e-mail address: duhamelkm at comcast dot net

Lujza—I would also welcome hearing from you.

I have a 17-year-old son and it is because of him that I finally had the courage to leave the ministry (he was 8 months old). When I imagined him growing up in the organization, I realized that I couldn’t subject him to the guilt and fear I accepted for myself. It breaks my heart to see the devastation that has befallen a whole generation of children who may not know life doesn’t have to be this way.

Please take care.
-Karen

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Thanks Roberta, I really love and respect the things you're reaching for; and your personal integrity in the ways you do it. Don't ever back down; especially over the abuse of children. Whenever you speak up about that, all hell breaks loose here. Wonder why. Must be some further stuff under the rug.

I feel badly that we older adults didn't better protect our children. I'm not really sure how much Dan went through or what all may have been involved. I know he suffered a lot at the hands of the wolf pack mentality among other students. A lot of what went on, we just didn't see; and I'm sure the kids didn't dare bring a lot of stuff up. They heard those messages too. We were all struggling to get by, and kept ridiculously busy trying to measure up to TBS standards. Things weren't as bad after the Baltimore exodus, but there still were issues.

And I've always been someone who doesn't want huge gaps in understanding between the generations. I want to accept my kids as what they are and encourage them in their own goals, not give them mine. And partly I see this in light of the fact that some of the art that small children do really impresses me (my daughter was like that), and that people have produced things I really like in art and music when they've been in their 90s. I'd like us all to be able to learn from and appreciate each other. Each one has great value. Some people need help to see their own.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I have found that the differences between the generations will always involve a lack of understanding, but "understanding" isn't really what kids are expecting. I get it that they know we can't understand, any more than they can understand us...what they are looking for is validation and acceptance with love.

Our parents didn't get us wither. I just wish they had let me be who I was and quit trying to change me into something they could relate to.

The kids that I do talk to just seem to need to know that they aren't dismissed as "too young" to feel real pain, real need, real rage and real love.

I have a nephew who is 24 and concerned about his sexuality. He's always "felt" he was gay, but freaked out that his parents are homophobic and judgemental. So, he talks to me. Funny thing, he never asks how I feel about it, he just is sure that I love him, I believe in him and that I'll listen without judging him. He had to leave his church because they shunned him when he discussed his sexual questions with the idiot pastor and he told everyone. He
felt so betrayed. Can't say I blame him.

I am sure Dan will work out his problems Bob...you validate him, love him and you don't judge him. Has he seen a counselor? There is a great woman at MHSB who understand about the casualties of the ministry...I could tell you her name if you email me. She was a wonderful help to Scott about his issues with TBS. You may even already know her Bob. Excellent exit counselor. He really got a handle on things talking to her for a few weeks.

Just an idea.
srfern@verizon.net

[boddah (boddah)]

happy thanksgiving! they're warming up for the state street parade outside my window.

guys, i didn't say anything above to blame you. that's why i apologized for the confrontational tone... only way it would come out.

i like the joke about hungarian in heaven, l. ain't it the truth, though.
lujza, i know you don't look down on me. nothing to prove. i felt a twinge including you in the god consciousness part, but since i've had some feelings about that particular belief bottled up, i get the "no one is sacred" (no pun) impulse, you know? defend against all perceived threats equally, if you differentiate the guard weakens.
joy is beautiful, by the way. what i liked most was that both of your smiles were so incredibly big. hope you can visit- apologize for not giving you better contact info. yet. give me a couple weeks to get used to having a new person around?
ok, i'm going to ask you a question you might not want to answer or you might want to email. no obligation. i just wondered, at 12, how did you try to kill yourself? so sorry if that sounds crass. i have a higher tolerance for that kind of discussion than a lot of people farther from the situation, and tend to be direct about it.

bob, i consider myself bi (you may have read that on the other post? have to say "consider" now 'cause i'm married.) and i can tell you how that feels. take your paragraph about why you like women, and substitute "people." people like that are so hard to find, i think, male or female. they're like another breed. i happen to be married to an extremely gentle and gracious man. it's a matter of personal compatibility as much as a sexual thing, which isn't to say it's not a sexual thing.
handy cliche- there are no dumb questions...

in earlier years i considered myself a christian, if by earlier you mean way earlier. around fifth grade or so (the year we moved to balto.) i figured that my life thus far had really been all about these people around me with their agendas, all claiming to feel some kind of calling to be the kind of jackasses they were. not just at ggwo, there were plenty of other churches in my life through family. but most evidently at ggwo. i knew that some were in earnest, my parents and their friends were not among the jackasses. but as i looked into it i found inconsistencies in their logic and (like in dune) places where they could not look. had to keep it up, though, because i knew what i was in for in the church if i rebelled openly, and i would rather do almost anything than hurt my parents.
i have absolutely no problem with your praying for me. i do believe that there are "psychic" (horrible word, i've got to think of a new one) energies that can reach one person from another, for better or worse. and even if i didn't, i would appreciate the effort.
about the caregiver therapist thing, i personally love to discuss grand and impossible federally funded programs i'd like to see! some of these are on the "one church, one sexuality" (or some such name) thread. as a hypothetical rather than something i should put in my planner for tomorrow, i like your idea.
don't think it's a good thing to filter out "the bad parts" of depression and leave "the good," because i think those are interdependent. a better approach is just to turn down the volume on it if you can, until you get your bearings. also, i don't trust anyone to be able to tell the difference, and those "under the knife" might not be able to explain themselves properly.
i don't usually have the can't get out of bed thing for more than a couple of days. (dan does.) when i see a pile of lies where the reason for living should be, first i cry then i get agitated, destructive, but very focused, even though the world i'm focused on is slightly warped. tend toward insomnia, and if sleeping just about always have nightmares (anxiety medication really helps.)

rj, you're right, can't just ignore it. not just a church, woven into my beloved family. your story is really interesting to me, and needless to say i love the poetry you post.
go women pastors. go unprovable scriptural infallibility. into the valley of death rode the six hundred...

karen, totally relate to the "deer in the headlights" or "fear of real relationship" scenario. i'd like to add, "longing to reach out but perceived as unapproachable when defensive." been trying to just be myself, going to school in my pj's sometimes, talking in class with fewer of my protective filters. getting better at it.

ps. are you sure life doesn't have to be this way? promise it isn't, always?

supposed to be getting ready for buffet lunch. be well, all.

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Boddah,

thank you for all your words. I was so glad to hear from you and and see that things seem at least a little better for you. Yes, I know how weird it can feel to have a new person around... I don't know, I felt your pain so acutely, I probably reacted too impulsively because I was dying to help. But I remember what it was like to be showered with affection by total strangers too fast, and I don't blame you if you receive any such with suspicion. We would love to visit you someday, but that won't be possible until next summer, so it's not like we're going to show up on your doorstep tomorrow. Until then, I hope we will exchange many emails and maybe, whenever you feel ready, phone conversations. You have the number, please call if you need to.

Anyway here we are at Joy's parents' house in Tennessee. We had a splendid feast at her grandparents' house. There has been a lot of progress made on the parents' part. From a time they wouldn't even mention my name, they have come to treat me almost like family. Her grandparents don't know we are a couple yet, but they seem to like me all right so far. This means a lot to both of us. They are all Southern Baptists, and I know it was hard for the parents to come this far.

All for now. More when we're back in Kentucky.

And no, life does NOT have to be this way. I've been there, and am coming out of it.

Love you
Lujza

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Concerning the spiritual in art have you considered the pop culture art distrubuted by Greenbriar in Chesapeake, VA... "FLARP! Noise Putty (not to be eaten)"?

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah, I like your answer. I did see that you had written that you considered yourself bi. I agree that it's very difficult to discern between what is good or bad, and there does seem to be an interdependent relation between the two. Maybe newer drugs and/or different levels in the system might help downplay the debilitating aspects. I know each case is different, and can change over time and likely through circumstantial pressures. I didn't realize that Dan also suffers from serious depression. How does each of your experience with it make it easier or harder for the other? I would expect it might work either way at various times. Are you bipolar, with the manic aspect also, or is it 'just' depression? Something in me wonders if there's a heightened sense of what I'll call the finer nuances of things like fog and twilight, and if this might actually be irritable in light of the onset of that feeling that everything is meaningless. I also wonder if 'pure' depression has waves and cycles and phases like bipolar does. The way that mania is portrayed as coming on reminds me of the feeling I used to get as I started to get off on acid. That is one of my favorite memories, and so I can really relate to those entering that phase not wanting to take their meds. It's sort of that 'here come the gods' feeling, and I wouldn't want to miss what initially feels so promising. Fortunately, I never had a bum trip. But maybe if I had I would better understand emotionally and psychologically what it's like to be bipolar. And no; when you said 'bi' I did not take it to mean bipolar. I feel for you Boddah. Don't give up. We like having you around.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

It's many years since I read Kandinsky's 'Concerning the Spiritual in Art', and the other things by him which I could find. He considered that the different colors had differing meaning or implications (as I recall). Not very long ago, someone who considers herself a 'prophetic dancer' gave my wife a list of various colours with 'spiritual' meanings or associations for each one. I have a problem with this kind of approach. It's another kind of ruts that cut down on the artistic playing field. It's like thinking God likes certain kinds of music (heavy metal, rap) as opposed to others (country, opera). I think God's a bit more intelligent than that. And even if colours do have differing meanings, they would be modified by the context of other colours which they inhabit; and the actual meaning in 'abstract' art is meant to not be openly definable, and could be different for one person than another.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Here's a web site that has an extensive variety of abstract artists; 104 pages with 10 artists on each page, and varying numbers of works you can get to by clicking on the artist: http://dart.fine-art.com/aqd-asp-intpage_57-arttype_subject_Abstract-buy-smquery.htm

This may not work by just clicking on it. The slashes at ground level have not registered except as spaces when I've tried posting them here before. If you can't get at it, try searching for dart.fine

I posted page 57 for a couple of reasons. I happen to like Dieter Picchio. The other reason is the whole question of computer generated art, digital impression, etc.

I came at art by way of online searches with the attitude that computer art was sort of cheating, and of less value. But what I've found in looking through some of it in the midst of this site is that some people really have an artistic sense employed in the way they go about it and some don't. And it can be very evocative and emotional. Another artist on this particular page (Rene Ertzinger) has some artistic merit in the things she shows here. She's not as impressive or complex as some of the others I've found, but I like the way she uses 'space'. As an ex-claustrophobic, the employment of space is something that I appreciate being done well. It has to do with 'composition' and all that. I've never been much of one for studying the technicalities of art, because I've been afraid of things that might derail what I have to let out. The intuitive reach is the heart of what I will have to give.

[boddah (boddah)]

dan made a lot of computer art in college, and his professors sometimes thought it was cheating. he continued to **** them off on purpose, and made some really great collage works. (pink cadillacs, his grandfather's portrait, the texture of water, etc.) the possibilities of photoshop allow combinations that would take a lifetime to figure out dynamically in a different medium. also, there's a big difference between clip art and scanning in and altering your own photos, or even scouting the alleys of the web for strange imagery.
i think it's easier to get the "mirror" concept down by computer, because when objects are positioned a certain way computer literate people immediately think "mirror" instead of symmetry or repetition. i mean, you could paint a mirror, but that also means glass, or wood, or brings to mind the era of the frame style, etc. you could just give someone a mirror, but then they start thinking about how they look. see something that's been "mirrored" and there's no other concept to interfere. you could see this as purer, or less rich, depending on what kind of art butters your bread as a professor.

no, i'm not bipolar, although i'm sort of medicated like i am. i don't get euphoric, what could be called my "ups" aren't up, they're energetic, and so far down i'm past caring about consequences. my "down" periods of less energy aren't normally concrete enough for me to miss school, they just put lead weights on me for a while. and the states aren't separate. my anxiety level is just really high, and so is my depression level. depending on whether it's first week of class or finals, how much coffee i've had, who's bugging me to do what, one or the other can show up more, but they're always mixed. can you repeat what you said about twilight and fog? these things have an odd effect on me, but i'm not sure if it's what you're talking about.



about dan and i dealing with some of the issues, i wrote this a few months ago.

eschatology

when i’m an emptiness, an absence,
the thin bloody scratches on my shoulder
take over like spreading disease, and i bleed all out,
who will take care of you?
do your laundry, run your bath,
kiss your cheek, croon
it’s all right, we’ll be fine, just wait…
who can i trust to do these things for me?
entrust with your heavy sweet head, your tears.
no one. everyone else is foreign to us.

when i’m a flat sandbag, waxy carcass,
who will pull you up by the hands,
force you out of the home cocoon
into the loud bright city to drink tea
in the periwinkle of a summer evening,
while the day’s heat radiates from the street?
not one other person can do it.

while i’m alive, here and now, housebound
by our strange shared sadness, will you
come home and carry me out into the summer,
order my coffee so i don’t have to speak?

you will. our half strengths together
make a near whole. without me, without you,
the one leftover will be orphaned
before learning how to live.


(all rights reserved by the author, 2004.
do not reprint without permission.)

[boddah (boddah)]

ps-
tori amos is a high heel wearing, piano playing, mysterious and disturbing songwriter of great genius.

ani di franco is a combat boot wearing, guitar playing, in your face and real songwriter of great genius.

both are great live. both may or may not be bisexual (ani definitely, tori hints around.) both care a great deal about women's issues. both may or may not have been raped (tori definitely, ani hints around.) tori dyes her hair orange red. ani periodically dyes hers green, or shaves it, or has dreds, or whatever she likes. ani has a greater ability to laugh at herself, tori has a greater ability to "see beyond."

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Hello again Boddah,

Wanted to add my own two cents to the earlier discussion about depression, counseling and medication. My depression wasn't diagnosed until college, although it started sometime around age 11. When I was 12 I tried to kill myself with my dad's heart medication. It was after several years in a constant war zone of my parents drinking and fighting, verbally and physically.

I was kept under suicide watch for a week at the hospital, but my parents refused to take it seriously. My mother maintained that I was just looking for attention; my father believed, until his death, that I had faked it. In Hungary mental health is not treated like it is in America, especially back then. I met with a child psychologist, but wasn't diagnosed with anything, nor did she talk to my parents.

My mother was extremely abusive the whole time I lived with her, until I moved to the States. She is an alcoholic, unemployed and severely depressed, but refuses to get help. She has a brother who is a paranoid schizophrenic, and my mother is terrified of being similarly stigmatized with a mental illness. Even now she mocks me for getting counseling. My father similarly derided psychological help, claiming it was only for loonies like my mother. I wonder if it could have helped him live longer...

At the christian college, the counselors could report anything you told them back to the administration, so I had to censor everything I said. Needless to say, she wasn't much help--she did diagnose my depression, but only offered medication, no concrete therapy. After they put me on the medicine, they acted like I should be fixed now and get on with my life. Last year, I was suspended for a semester (sent back to Hungary) for missing too many chapel services, and my counselor was involved in that process.

It wasn't until I transferred to the secular college that a psychiatrist seriously considered all sides of my story. When I wasn't on my medicine I was crying all the time and wanted to sleep all day. She put me on a new medicine that helped, but made it clear that the medicine *alone* won't "fix" my depression. I was referred to a good therapist, and we have started digging up really painful memories and processing them. It makes a huge difference that I don't have to fear betrayal or censor myself any more. I've already noticed improvement and have hope for recovery, but only over time.

Just wanted to share my experience--I hope it helps someone. Gotta go now, the in-laws are waiting with delicious leftovers http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Love, Lujza

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

My study of mental illnesses has made me think that those who have them should not feel stigma or shame. You did not cause or ask for these things. In fact, it takes a great deal of courage to face your condition and seek to deal with it. You are not of lesser value; you just face different (and perhaps unfair) challenges. A step of victory for you may be much greater than a similar step for someone who faces a much easier path. Your example in moving forward against the oppositional effects of your conditions should be an encouragement to us all. I hope that all here are pulling for you.

Boddah, the thing about twilight and fog. They sort of haunt me. I've always seemed to have this thing about inbetween places. Fog does such interesting things to colour; and there's the thing about the horn sounded in it, like a call to somewhere outside the norm. These places seem like a transition to somewhere else, like another state of being. My own experience of depression somehow seemed to heighten this kind of perspective. But it's so long ago (1991-2) that I can't be certain my memory isn't playing tricks. And it definitely didn't take away my pain.

I get the impression from what you wrote that being with Dan is helpful when you're down, and that you're so for him also.

[boddah (boddah)]

no, no your memory can't be playing tricks! i have the same! that's what i thought you meant but i didn't believe anyone else would know how that felt.
ever since i can remember twilight's had a weird effect on me, it makes me uncommunicative, but with very sharpened senses and profound melancholy. i tend to stare into space and make cryptic statements. twilight is when i think: this is my power, this forty five minutes of blue change between sunset and sleep. i feel like i could see for miles, to other worlds even. it makes me think of drowning.
fog too-- know what the most surreal experience i ever had was? in holland, by the north sea, i was standing right at the edge of the water on a dark night, no streetlights or moon or anything. there were other people there (we were there for a conference) but some were farther up the beach, and the guy with me i simply couldn't register as being there. there's an ani di franco lyric that goes, "the sky is grey, the sand is grey, and the ocean is grey..." it was sort of like that, only not grey and delineated. grey and amorphous. i could literally not tell the difference between beach, water and sky, because of this thick fog that was infiltrating the nature of everything. i could hear the laughter from up the beach, buffered by the fog, and i thought, god, they aren't even seeing this... how is that possible? my senses were soaked in it. it was quiet and encompassing.
here in chicago the fog mists all feathery down by the sidewalk, but gets dense as it goes up, and hides the tops of the skyscrapers. it's like being in a dali painting. that's the kind of environment that makes pearl jam sound so eerie.
both twilight and fog are very lonely for me, but powerful.

lujza, thank you for being so frank. it makes all this much more real for me, sometimes i feel like it's a bad dream? i'm just in such a different universe than the one i grew up in. can i just say, i'm so glad i didn't go to a christian college. i went right to secularville and still it took a long time for me to even realize there was help available. i remember your home life as not being happy, so when you were so dedicated to the church i did know it was for a different reason than the goose-steppers. i'm glad you found joy (literal, but i guess figurative too.)
my parents didn't "believe" in psychiatrists either, because a long time ago when shock therapy was still barbaric my grandma went into the hospital with depression, and came out severely disabled from the shocks. she lived with my grandpa for a long time, and she could recognize us, but wasn't capable of much else. then when it worsened she was hospitalized and didn't know us anymore, and swore like quite the sailor at the nurses, i heard. (they wouldn't let me in to see her.) she died last summer, and i saw her for the first time since i was a kid just a few months before her death. she was off her medications because there really wasn't any use anymore, and though she didn't recognize the grown-up us, she did remember that she had children, and that she loved them. she remembered my grandpa, her favorite preacher, and that she loved pepsi. all this meant so much to my dad. those are the only words i can remember ever hearing her say. my grandpa was the only one who understood her after the shocks.
i was really afraid first going into therapy because of all that. also not helping was the fact that i'd just read "the bell jar." (sylvia plath had shock treatment while in college, but at a more sophisticated facility.)

dan and i do help each other out. sometimes it feels like parenting, which is not so great, but we're really necessary for each other. past couple of weeks we've been closer than we were for a while, and i'm so relieved. when one of us is much more motivated or energized than the other it's hard to connect sometimes. here's what i wrote last night when he was sleeping off the turkey.
("white night" is a jonestown reference. the blood imagery is from a couple of recent cutting incidents. i did give him my swiss army today, which he put down the trash chute.)

thanksgiving

dan sleeps on flannel, stomach full.
my ganesha, wise totem. husband.
before he drifted off I held him
a long time, held him like I used to,
like before my shadow swelled
into an everyday air raid.
love rations are punishing, but
today our kiss was custard real again.

dan’s chest is round and solid,
capacious, a precious whale oil barrel.
i’ve come back to him harpooned.
his chest is packed with good,
a peace treaty yet unsigned.
his soul lies low tonight, waits
to save the world in due time.

dan’s belly-up in bed,
hemp t-shirt a mound of snow.
my long pale arm circles him,
a perfect fit, strange rainbow,
red sled run, crushed fly fallen
into cream. blood white night.
alone in consciousness I watch
this trusting, fallible mate of mine
i knew immediately by instinct, scent.

my reality. we share troubles.
tomorrow, when he comes to find me,
i’ll give him my knives by will.
he can heal my cut embrace,
but the work drains him. my thanks
are weak as third world currency.


(all rights reserved by author, 2004. do not reprint without permission.)

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

That's very moving Boddah. Love and trust are so important for us; even if we can only find them in one other person. When there's so much dark, the value of light is more evident.

One of my memories of fog goes back to a day when my brother David and I were tripping. We were out in the woods in snow with a hardened crust and ice encasing all the tiny branches and twigs on the trees. It was fairly dampish cold and foggy. We started breaking chunks of icy crust off the snow and throwing them at the branches. The icy fragments would break off the trees and fall on the hardened surface of the snow and noisily slither all over the wavy surface. That mixed with the sound of the pieces of ice breaking off was really something. We decided that when we got to heaven, that was going to be our job. We still sometimes joke about it when we get together. One of those moments that sticks forever.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I also have a thing about the ocean. It calls something in me. Being up in the mountains is similar, but different. And I love storms, thunder, lightning, blizzards, hurricaines. I always have.

I'm not superstitious. I like the dark, the moon, cemeteries and places that might make some fearful. I like swamps, though I don't like getting wet and muddy. I like dead trees. I have a highly melancholic disposition, but I also enjoy certain kinds of humor. I'm both very serious and 'crazy'.

What I gained from C.S.Lewis wasn't just to do with Christianity. He was a very clear thinker who knew how to logically assess things in a balanced way, and had an ability to illustrate his points in different ways, getting across his meaning both directly and indirectly, with the indirect driving his point deeper. He had a lot to do with how I think structurally.

Another author that influenced me a lot was George MacDonald. His influence was in terms of intellectual honesty and the importance of doing what I believe to be right. He was a believer also, but you might enjoy 'Lilith' or 'Phantastes', which are adult fantasies. He liked storms too.

The third strong influence was a Catholic writer of uncategorizable books normally found (if at all) in the sci-fi/fantasy section named R.A.Lafferty. He wrote really crazy things that move in all kinds of impossible directions and are very funny in weird ways. Most people would think it's worthless foolishness; but my sense of what is funny was partly formed through his influence. One of those refinements along the way.

[boddah (boddah)]

what kind of humor? how would you characterize it?
(lafferty, you say? looked up his bibliography and since i'll be at borders today.. unless they're out of print like all the other good books.) personally, i'm kind of weird about the "goth" movement. in a way i seriously relate to it, but at the same time i find their song lyrics riotously funny. also death metal band names (like circle of dead children and cannibal corpse,) and completely random but particularly phrased things that i hear people say (they have no idea why i'm laughing.) i love word games.

i mentioned my ocean issues before.
but thunderstorms, blizzards, the moon, cemeteries, heights, fearful places, we have way in common. never seen a hurricane. i actually have very little patience for people who aren't daring about those things. i have a cache of stories but they'd take forever.

the dark, i only like if i can handle it. i like to close myself in the bathroom and sit on the cold tile, 'cause that's the only room that gets no light at all if you block the space under the door. you can almost hear the dark. on the other hand, if i've had a nightmare i may need to be walked into the same bathroom, or turn on all the lights on the way, which wakes dan up anyway.

i love night, but that's never really all dark.
also like strong wind or loud noise when you have to scream to be heard, group panic within reason, plastic bags blowing on the asphalt, and fire. always have matches with me, though not a smoker.

out of curiosity, is macdonald's lilith a good or bad figure? 'cause you got your babykilling she devil interpretation, and your liberated female outside moral codes archetype interpretation. either way could work as a novel.

always hate saying negative things about cs lewis or tolkein, because if someone brings them up as a favorite author it's probably not that they picked up the book at borders last week and read it on the bus to work. you can pretty much bet that they are tied to those books from way inside and way back. my dad and one of my best friends will simply hear no evil about tolkein.

the reasons i dislike cs lewis don't just have to do christianity. he doesn't write convincing enough fiction for me. i can't say it's not imaginative... but somehow, the characters are all paper and i know it. he makes little paper models to act out detailed extensions of known processes.
in order to cherish a book i need to have it override my whole worldview. when i was young oz books did that, as did robin mckinley (beauty) and madeline l'engle (wrinkle in time.) more recently it's michael moorcock's elric series (now available in a convenient 2-volume "collected works,") iris murdoch novels, chuck palahniuk, isaac asimov, the harry potter books, thomas harris's hannibal lecter books, toni morrison, tad williams' otherland series...
i know we're talking books, but director david lynch, and star trek the next generation.

if you have to choose one of the above i'd go for iris murdoch. she writes novels (and philosophy, but i haven't read it) that's all about the fine fine line between bizarrely funny and horrible accident. always unexpected, great characters. my favorite of hers (possibly even my favorite book) is a fairly honourable defeat.

there is one really transparent sci fi writer that i love, who's got a feminist liberal agenda you can't miss even though sometimes it doesn't show till the end of the book. sherri s. tepper. but she's sooooo much more inventive than tolk. or cs. also, yeah, so i agree with her and that helps. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Some of Lafferty's stories have a group of five people who know everything there is to know; and one of them is some kind of projection from a computer. Many of his characters drink almost constantly. Here are some direct quotes:

'Almost all the arable land in the world was once worm castings.'

'Any art whose colors bark and howl out loud at you is worth studying.'

'Good art is the priviledged outpouring of the Holy Spirit, sometimes from one unworthy vessel into another unworthy vessel. Bad art is the outpouring of an unholy spirit. The good is preferable.'

'The dead remember life as a minor early experience, and they believe that they received more than it was worth when they relinquished it. "Why worry about life", they tell the living. "It's only temporary." '

'All persons at all times have the right to be in France and this has always been understood.'

Bear in mind that these quotes were chosen to share with other believers. I didn't pick them out for you. I just had them at hand.

I like fire too. Love staring into it and feeling the heat on my face.

Lilith was supposed to be a wife Adam had before Eve. That's the one MacDonald used. I think the main character in the book may have been looking for some way to redeem her. MacDonald postulated in the book that possibly Satan himself could choose life again if he wanted to; that God would take him back if he did. I'm not sure if he seriously thought that or if it was just to rankle the Calvinists from whose ranks he had emerged. He had serious issues with church norms of his day. And he loved literature, the arts and philosophy. He was an intellectual. You would probably find most of his characters either too good or too bad; but those two books are particularly interesting and not hard to find. Lilith is my favorite of his.

You saying bad things about Lewis or Tolkien doesn't bother me. Do you like Kafka or Dostoyevsky? I also like Patricia McKillip and Steven Donaldson. I read l'Engle for a while. I read a lot of Asimov years ago. I started a thread on here about the Potter books, in which I was severely attacked by our religious right. My own wife and daughter got convinced out of reading them. They're not about witchcraft. They're about human relations and behaving faithfully and properly toward your friends and such things.

My wife wants the computer so I've gotta scoot. Love ya, Bob

[melymbrosia (melymbrosia)]

Boddah, your poetry is searing and enchanting. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. It has been very meaningful for me personally to read them. I love to write, but for some reason I get these dry spells now and then, when my creative juices seem to have disappeared. Your poetry really encourages me to start writing again.

Bob, you like Dostoyevski? My parents surrounded me with books and theatre pretty much from birth, and introduced me to the greats of world literature very early, including Tolstoy and Dostoyevski. My dad took me to the theatre since I was very little, and that's where I first encountered him.

I remember my christian friends (both ggwo and others) always discouraging me from reading such dark authors as Kafka and Dostoyevski, saying that reading them would "grieve the Spirit". Actually, they were very cathartic experiences for me, helping me face the pain and darkness in my life that I couldn't articulate.

When in the mood for lighter reading, some of my favorites are Roald Dahl's "Tales of the Unexpected". In America most people only know him for his children's stories, but these are delightful, chilling, morbid short stories with a wickedly dark sense of humor. Highly recommended!

Love, Lujza

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Lujza, I encountered Kafka and Dostoyevski prior to TBS/GGWO and never asked. I thought both of them were funny and deep. I recall Dahl as seen on BBC productions (I think). He was interesting. I remember him much as you portray him, though my exposure may not have been very extensive. Does anyone like Mervyn Peake? I got a BBC rendition of Gormenghast, which is great fun to watch. He has been one of my favorites. A Bohemian; out of place with his times; or any times. Very sad demise; Parkinsons and all that. It grieves me. Such great talent lost so young. I heard once that Jimi Hendrix intended to get together with Frank Zappa, but then he died. Who knows what might have been? May beautiful bessings be yours; Bob

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

This morning I'm half way through viewing 180 art works by an artist named Scott Andrew Spencer that I found somewhere on that art site I mentioned before. Some of his things don't do much for me, but many of them have a quality I'm going to call 'yearning'. It's as if they're struggling to be real from out of unreality. In the movie 'Blade Runner', based on the book 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?' by P.K. Dick; there are artificial lifeforms which outwardly appear to be people, but are not. They have been created with a deliberately short lifespan of something like four years. The plot revolves around a small renegade band of them that have escaped from their proper place in space back to Earth in an attempt to prolong their lifespan. This art says the same thing to me. It wants to be loved. This is not silly. It is an echo of the artist. It is also possible that it is an attempt on his part to love; to make connection with others beyond what is normally possible and impart something inwardly beautiful. It can be done in terms that defy normal definition. Music can do this also.

[boddah (boddah)]

i love blade runner. my favorite part is the artificial owl.
prolong their lifespan... very human desire. also very human to approach the lengthening of life from the war/homicide angle. finding out that your past was a lie and your life is running out (sound familiar?) is traumatic, but likely the value the replicants put on finding a "real" life was sadly overoptimistic. if they were to live as humans, that is... maybe if they worked with a new species they could be reprogrammed a bit to be more sensible. not likely, because the replicants' sense of "daddy" was too strong and was very threatened. their meltdown violent insanity was just as human as their "correct" functioning.
the sense of yearning you describe is what drives science fiction. it is for reality out of unreality, in the sense that what we call reality is unacceptable in so many ways, falling short of the various schemata most of us would say we believe in. sci fi can also be seen as an escape from reality, which is why self-conscious reality-bound people scoff at it. they feel trapped and don't want to admit it, and/or are afraid of change because they don't want to lose precious status.
but to pull back from the "reality" we experience is like taking a step back to look at a canvas in progress. to change the world, you need a perspective from outside the trenches. in addition to the artist's yearning for immediate love, i think there's also a sense (wish?) that if things could be different overall, love could just be.
in the meantime music is definitely the closest, deepest communication we have.


u2, achtung baby, "even better than the real thing:"

"Give me one last chance and I'm gonna make you sing
Give me half a chance to ride on the waves that you bring
You're honey, child, to a swarm of bees
Gonna blow right through you like a breeze
Give me one last chance, we'll slide down the surface of things

You're the real thing
Yeah, the real thing
You're the real thing
Even better than the real thing, child

We're free to fly the crimson sky
The sun won't melt our wings tonight..."

ps. no luck on lafferty, will try alibris online.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I was thinking about Lewis just a bit this morning; about how strongly logical he was, and yet...

His conversion to Christ was not really about logic and the presentation of the facts. It was about what he called 'joy', which was that undefinable yearning you get when you look at a sunset or gaze out to sea. It seemed to draw him without ever giving him the answer or satisfaction of his longing. Partly the longing itself was a joy, and yet he sensed there was some response to that that should exist. He felt that he found that response in Christ. It was about personal relationship rather than proof.

Lewis was very logical and might seem out of step with the 'postmodern'; and yet I don't think the point is really to dismiss logic. I think the problem is that we don't have all the data; and so our conclusions are fallible. What data we start from determines what results or conclusions we come to. If we accept different 'facts' as data, then we will come to different conclusions. And if we alter or add one fact, it can change our whole perspective. The 'postmodernist' seemingly accepts intuition as a valid form of fact-finding. This can be seen as a kind of inner connection with that which is not self; perhaps definable and perhaps not. For a Christian, this aspect can be seen in reliance on the Holy Spirit; but many Christians seem to fear direct guidance from the Spirit. They feel a necessity to measure His guidance by what has been written. The 'postmodernist' would see that approach as discounting the intuitive and living as a 'modernist'.

Logic still has a place for the 'postmodernist', I believe. Part of my own logic can be seen like this: I work at my job in certain ways. What works for me or what feels the most comfortable or what forms or methods bear the best results for me will not necessarily be what is the most logical according to the situation and its details. I am part of my situation, and there are things about me and how I think and feel that alter the data for me personally. So I use logic in terms of who and what I am. Logic also is used in explaining what I see or why I think certain ways. But it can be perfectly logical for two people to think exactly the opposite about the same thing, even though outwardly the data is the same for both.

My conclusion is that logic and the 'provable' in themselves are not enough; either for the believer or the atheist. They don't encompass the whole person. We need more than logic. We need personal Appearance. We need connection. And our connection with each other needs to go beyond just logic. How logical is love?

[boddah (boddah)]

so, are you saying joy is sort of like loving something so much that it hurts? if we get joy from being dissatisfied, we're in luck...

you say that lewis was converted to christianity because he independently decided there should be some kind of answer to his longing. i think you're very right about felt personal relationship rather than proof being a basis for belief.
you're actually defining postmodernism quite well, to my knowledge.

postmodernism isn't always illogical, nor does it deny that logic may exist. if people who believe themselves to be logical in some final sense consider postmodernism illogical, it's because they think that all the information about the universe is in-- and even if it isn't they'd stake their lives that in the end it will go their way. the question isn't whether postmodernism has a place for logic; postmodernism has a place for everything humans have believed. as you said the question is, can so-called logic handle postmodernism's contradictions?
postmodernism would hold that no, we don't have all the data: what we do have is a few thousand years of recorded history during which many people have supported many movements that have all held a different opinion on what "truth" is. as time goes on and new ideas tend to build on old ones, the key builders of the new movements can pick and choose any given historical events and add their own twists to them at will.

postmodernism does take intuition into account as a primary source of conviction, but intellectual choices must be made in order to live by the prompts of intuition. our race is so steeped in valuing what we call logic that there isn't a chance that postmodernists could shed the concept. we are, as you say, "part of our situation," to the point that any apparent truth that appeals to our intuition seems valid (even if they contradict.) "pure" logic is not possible under those circumstances because all we have with which to define logic is what has been accepted as logic in the past.
in other words, unless we can redefine logic in some way that will make our experience irrelevant, the best we can do is make a strong effort to accept that other people's concept of "revealed truth" (through intuition, filtered through "logic") is as valid as our own.
"that which is not self" is outside our understanding. we think we can feel it, but how would we understand it when absolutely none of our experience is had outside the self?

"provable" doesn't even exist as far as i can see. we limp by with partial concepts, and rely on intuition far more than we dare admit. it makes people feel better to pretend everything's settled, when in fact nothing, not even the definition of "shoelace" is settled. there is always always room for another explanation, especially when art is taken into account.

david bowie, earthling, "law (earthlings on fire)": "i don't want knowledge-- i want certainty!"

how logical is love? depends who you ask. to an evolutionist, our species and several others have evolved to mate for life, in our case because raising our young takes a very long time and a stable place to raise young is evolutionarily preferable. it has been suggested by those who support sexual selection that we have "love" and "altruism" because way back when there was a random trend in females to like those characteristics in males, and wish to bear those males' young. they say this snowballed and developed into a highly specialized faculty through time, to the point that we take those characteristics for granted.

then again, you can say love is a mystery we can never understand, you can say it doesn't exist, you can say it's a gift from god, you can say some group or other invented it, you can say it's a candy bar, you can say it's money, you can say it's a curse or a blessing, you can say it's little orphan annie if you want to. and you're right, technically. intuition may scream otherwise, it may seem illogical, but no one can prove you wrong.
we just have to let go and let people think what they're going to think, as long as they abide by whatever laws we've decided are closest to being generally logic (now that's an ongoing process.)

i have a question: lewis used a fairly direct biblical analogy as the basis for the narnia books (and other works.) did he consider the written word to be subject to individual perception (due to difference in personality,) or did he have a more concrete, literal approach to the bible? how much modification would have been considered too much for him?

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Boddah:
May I gently suggest to you that you would benefit best by reading "Mere Christianity" by Lewis and form your own conclusions.
For him,
Dave

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah, I think Lewis tried to hold himself to what he felt were the central doctrines or teachings of Christianity, without pushing some particular church's or denomination's views. I believe he did think that your 'walk with God' or whatever you want to call it was a personal matter, but one which was to be undergone with respect and attention toward others. He attended services at the Anglican Church in England, but had a personal 'mentor' who was a Catholic priest or monk in France. His relationship with the Anglican Church has always struck me as somewhat distant.

I think he probably considered the Bible basically accurate, but didn't consider total inerrancy necessary for belief. When he wrote fiction or poetry, he (by his own statements) did not start out to make his stories Christian. He would just write what he received an initial inner sense of and develop it in the ways he felt inclined. The stories sort of wrote themselves. His whole life he studied fiction and mythology from various time periods and philosophy as well. He was a proffesor at Oxford and lived in a climate of intellectual challenge. He was very interested in the imagination. And he faced a lot of flack from the 'Christian community' during his life time. I'm sure after he was dead and couldn't correct them, that many distorted his writings for their own ends; just like they do with the BIBLE. It's easier to use 'dead guys' stuff' to manipulate others. Can you hear the howls? After something is written down and no longer changeable by those who wrote it, you can begin the interpretive approach. From a Christian perspective, the one who is meant to safeguard against this is the Holy Spirit. But my belief from my dealings with those who believe in total inerrancy of the Bible is that they largely depend not on the Spirit, but on human scholarship and their own understanding. More howls.

Now, I can to varying degrees trust people I personally know or have read; but trusting people I don't know writing out of data that I don't have is a bit of a stretch. I try to trust the Holy Spirit, and follow His direction. I frankly don't believe New Testament believers had all that great a degree of scholarship in their midst. I think the apostles relied heavily on the Spirit and prayer in their understanding of the scriptures they had up to that point. The Bereans were praised by Paul for searching the scriptures to see if what he said was so. What scriptures? The Old Testament. They wouldn't be checking his own letters to see if he was being accurate.

I'm not sure how far Lewis would have considered it proper to stretch the Bible to fit yourself. Or 'modify' is the word you used. I think probably he would consider that different ones would find different emphasis and support than others there. That there would be aspects more important for you than the next person, and vice-versa. He would consider it God's business to show you the way. I think his advice would be toward a very individual walk with God, as opposed to the herd type of thing. Certainly George MacDonald, whom he considered perhaps his chief spiritual influence, would have thought that way. He really bucked the system.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I really liked your above post, Boddah. One thing that occured to me as I read it is that the 'modernist' accepts or rejects the intuitive based on how it lines up with what they already consider to be 'the facts'. They try to define what they 'see' by what they already 'know'. This makes them unable to really see beyond what they know unless there's a direct connection with it. The 'postmodernist' would have more of a sense of seeing all these disconnected parts, and then finding a kind of order or at least partial connection between them; sort of like many of Dali's paintings. This latter kind of view actually lines up pretty well with a lot of the endeavors in art and music over about the last century and a half. What Francis Schaeffer saw as a breakdown in order was actually just another way of seeing and thinking, with another kind of order. The 'mystical' as well has a kind of inner sense to it, though not all can find or taste it. Some don't want to find it.

[lee (lee)]

Bob, Boddah,
Lee Bontecou is a sculptor that was big in the 60-70'-s. She did wall mounted pieces in wood, canvas velvet etc.......she married, and to put her marraige first (to another artist, who is not well known), they moved away from the 'art scene'. No one heard from her till last year. Her new stuff blows me away......her drawings of eyes/birds/fish are full of energy and mystery. Some could be scary but some make me think about Ezekiel's vision.
This is all very new stuff and you would have to search for galleries showing it or look in the art mags......I think you would like to take a look at her stuff.
lee

[boddah (boddah)]

dave,
feel free to suggest anything you like, but when you need to preface it with "gently" it's a bit scary! (anyway, the extracurricular reading will have to be put off till finals are over.)

bob,
i had a lot of trouble phrasing that question and "modify" was the best i could come up with, it's not precisely what it meant. but your point about selective personal emphasis, rather than accepting some and rejecting some, is quite good.
i think we were saying a lot of the same things using different vocabularies.
yeah, postmodernists do put together scattered ideas, even if it's just under a general heading like "indecipherable" or even "useless." (often it's more like "myriad" or "multifaceted.") postmodernists can't exist out of their own experience any more than anyone else can, so they're forced to connect ideas because that's just how people have learned to process their surroundings. it's saved us from being eaten by tigers so far (for the most part!) personally i think that chaos does exist, but that chaos and order are layered one on the other on the other and so on, and we can't tell what's at the bottom. if that's so, i think it's likely chaos and order are working together at this point in some kind of third formation, forged while they've been smushed together all this time. whether they ever existed independently i couldn't say... this is all a gut feeling, based on nothing i've researched. but at any rate we have no choice but to trust intuition and use science the best we can.
dali's paintings were based on dreams, no? it's interesting to think of postmodernism as a way of putting information together in a dreamlike way rather than trying to find a strictly operable formation. i like that.

lee,
lee bontecou rocks. i was interviewing for a job at the museum of contemporary art here and there was a whole big exhibit of her work. got to wander through the maze of corridors smelling warm wood and seeing things pop out from the walls in all directions. the eyes were on the publicity poster, so in every metro stop. i loved it. i was talking about bontecou with a classmate and she said the art was creepy, but i would totally install it in my house!

[boddah (boddah)]

i'm going to put this on this thread partly because i think in a way it's relevant to art, but mostly because this is the one where i feel most comfortable.

on a personal note,
had a really good discussion with my therapist about cutting. we were trying to figure out what sets it off, and from there figure out what it's intended to accomplish (different for everyone.) i was having a lot of trouble putting my finger on a specific feeling. we went through the usual suspects, self-punishment, tension release, waking up from a derealized state, anger turned inward... these have all been applicable a little bit at different times, but none is universally at the bottom of every cutting impulse for me.
so i thought for a long time, and came up with the exact thing.

anybody see the movie "may?"
a girl who's extremely sheltered and whose only friend has always been this china doll she keeps in a case, is now old enough to live on her own. she tries to reach out in various ways, all disastrous. she drives away a boyfriend because she misunderstands a student film he made, and thinks that his idea of love is violence (it isn't.) she loses a flighty girlfriend from work, and never goes back to work because of it. she loses her other job when the blind kids she tutors break her doll accidentally and get cut on the shards. she briefly befriends a few other characters who run away eventually, because her behavior seems so strange. she's really was never taught how to be social, but they don't know that.
so eventually, no doll friend, no people, nothing. she even kills her cat by accident.
one thing may does do splendidly is sew. she makes all her own clothes. so she sews up the dead cat (the first job she lost was in a vet's office,) and meanwhile starts thinking, hey, even though all those people hurt me, there were certain pieces of them i that i really liked. the guy's hands, the girl's legs, etc. she decides to make herself a new, life sized doll friend out of her favorite human parts.
halloween comes and she goes on a killing spree. no one questions the blood 'cause they think it's fake, or the cooler she's toting 'cause they think it's beer for a party. she gets the materials and takes them home.
she snips and fits and tucks all the pieces together, into a frankenstein patchwork doll. when she's done she looks at it expectantly, but it slowly dawns on her that this is a thing and it cannot look back at her. in her distraught state she decides if she gave it eyes, it could have a soul and really see her.
may pulls out one of her own eyes and puts it into the doll's head, and cries and cries because there's no change in the doll. the movie ends with may lying on the floor holding her creation, each of them with one eye.

i said all that to say, that's what the cutting impulse is like for me. when i feel like i can't connect with people, with my surroundings, when i feel derealized or like everyone else is from another planet, what i try to do is "alter" myself like a piece of clothing, hoping to "fit" the space i can't reach as i am.

[boddah (boddah)]

i really hope you don't think i'm too strange.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah; You really make this a much more interesting place. I love having you here. I know someone else who cuts, but I'm not close to her. Personally, I think her husband becomes part of the problem (very legalistic in a strained kind of way); though he means well. He just doesn't understand how incapacitated she is.

Back when I was claustrophobic, it was like this for me. My wife never understood. She always seemed to think I could just choose to be different. But it was like solid reality that could not be overidden, only partially adjusted to. The inner restrictions and sense of the impassable was just as real to me as any concrete object. It didn't matter if outward reality 'told a different story'. I was locked into my own.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Lee, I did a Dogpile search on Lee Bontecou, and found some of her things. I somewhat liked the stuff from the 60s, but one thing I ran across was named 'Untitled' from 1998, and the difference was atonishing. She graduated to a new level. Nice.

[karen (karen)]

Boddah,

I don't think you're stranger than anyone else--just honest. However, your strangeness is a lot more creative than most--you make amazing connections. Also, I think you are compelled to push boundaries, and then push them some more. I can relate to this, though for me, the boundaries are different. (BTW-your abandonment of capital letters does funny things to me. It must be all the editing I've done.)

You opened and closed your message with two related ideas that are very thought provoking:

"i'm going to put this on this thread partly because i think in a way it's relevant to art, but mostly because this is the one where i feel most comfortable."

"when i feel like i can't connect with people, with my surroundings, when i feel derealized or like everyone else is from another planet, what i try to do is "alter" myself like a piece of clothing, hoping to "fit" the space i can't reach as i am."

It is interesting that you feel comfortable on this thread, but not the others. It's as if the various threads are like rooms that house different people. All of us seem to have preferences when we post, though it is probably true that most of us read at least parts of all the threads. Even though I have been posting for months, there are people here I never interact with, because they don't congregate where I do. And I am realizing at this very moment that I reveal different sides of my personality, depending on where I am posting and who I expect to be there.

Sometimes I think of myself as an elastic band--I can stretch or adapt, but only to a degree. I have a surer sense of what my snapping point is now--and I know if I go beyond it, I will break. Can't let that happen. When I sense my reach is too great, I pull back and practice conservation. Some people will keep asking for more; I have learned to say no.

-Karen

[jeannie (jeannie)]

No Boddah, not strange..

I kinda have this thought about "cutting".. it is like a mark, and outside mark that makes the inside mark real, it gives the inside mark it's worth.

I don't cut. But in a lesser, more trivial way I razor cut my hair during "hard moments." And I just realized I had a bad week AND cut my hair..

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

So; to reach a bit...I'm semiconcluding that cutting is an art form, with yourself as the canvas. And that for it to be valid, it has to cost something. I haven't seen the movie. I can watch things like that. 'Seven', with Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman comes to mind. Perhaps there are better ways of expressing what needs out; but maybe not for you, Boddah. Only you can know. Educate me further in this, if you want to and can. I'm not afraid of inner connection with it.

[lee (lee)]

I have a friend thats 50 yrs old. She used to be a cutter. She has blessed me with her story. I say blessed because its quite a life she has lived. Also, quite a remarkable recovery she has made. I can certainly understand some of the abuse part of her story, however, its way beyond what I've experienced. If its hot in the summer, she'll come to visit me and take her long sleeves off. She doesn't do this with others. She'll work all day in clothes that cover her scars.
I must say, that for someone scarred physically and emotionally, she has a remarkable spirit. She serves inner city kids, doing above and beyond. She has her energy renewed quickly and loves just pours out of her. The kids love her and trust her. She's never told them of her life. They just seem to know instinctively that she is one to trust.
No, Boddah, I don't find you strange...I find the circumstances of people's lives strange sometimes....I find that whatever it takes to survive gives those that do a unique spirit. Our new daughter in law is a cancer survivor....she lost a leg as a result, but she has an indominable spirit! She's feisty and a fighter. The marks the cancer left on her body has made her a very attractive person.

Right now, I'm jealous that you got to walk through a Bontecou exhibit without hordes of others wanting to see! I'm so short, I get elbowed easily! I hope that show makes its way east.

[karen (karen)]

Boddah,

Your post is provoking me to say something that may mean absolutely nothing to you, but I'll take a chance and throw it out there. One thing I discovered in my post-ministry life (and for me, most of that time has been spent in a university community)is that I could never adapt to the hierarchy of values--charisma, talent and audacious self-promotion supercede substance and character. The impulse to package oneself must be resisted; it is as seductive as it is lethal.

[boddah (boddah)]

karen-
about the impulse to package myself. not sure i have it, not sure i want to. that's kind of disturbing, since there's a lot of emphasis put on "networking" and there are always white-toothed smiles willing to go to the events i can't stand! i do interior design work, and also write, because i like it. sometimes feel like i won't be able to have a career at all... scary given the need to trade money for goods.
curious, what boundaries do you feel you need to push?


bob-
you semiconclude that cutting is an art form.

movies about cutting are an art form, poems about cutting are an art form, paintings, radio broadcasts, documentaries-- all art forms. i guess i take "art form" to mean for public consumption... if you look at it as secret art that is actively hidden most of the time, personal art, i guess the comparison could work. if you consider every action of an artist art, even brushing teeth, that might work too. but dangerous ground, kind of brings up the "attention seeker" accusation, which is all too common when people don't want to look at whatever the problem is.
there are many other, more public, ways of expressing what needs out. i practice several. i wouldn't call them better, just different-- because i'm inside here. being in here just has its own ways of dealing with need. some things can come out in words or pictures, some i can't say or demonstrate, and they push my brain into a different (lonely) kind of coping.
like you said, from outside you look like you're making conscious choices based on weighed evidence. you're not. it's like crying or laughing, an impulsive reaction that makes sense because it feels so natural.
but art is often (usually?) something an artist is proud of. it's hard to imagine a cutter (like lee's friend, like me, with the long sleeves) being proud enough of those particular scars to expose themselves to ridicule. cutting might be necessary to the cutter, but is not always desired. the sense of shame is strong.
but so is the sense of: ok, that's it, i'm going to deal with this myself now. if there's pride involved, for me it's pride that i came through those terrible feelings alive, and i was able to do it myself. and that, i can't really tell people because introducing them to potential suicide is not popular. dan knows about the cuts because he sees me every day, my therapist knows because i forced myself to tell her, but she's never seen. dan knows about anxiety, he doesn't expect me to pull myself up by my bootstraps. but he does start watching me and hiding the exacto blades i need for my schoolwork.
i reserve exposed physical scarrng for tattoos and piercings, which are culturally acceptable and far, far away from my secrets.
and i could never place any kind of value on my private scars, the thought of them "costing" me is pretty much incomprehensible. i don't own them, i am them.

i like having you here too. you don't give up on me when i'm not doctrinally correct, and you like music.


jeannie-
never thought of hair. more visible, how does that affect people's perception of you? do you have to explain? you're right about the outer marks giving validation to the inner ones, even if it is just for me.

lee-
try gigantic rubber-soled combat boots. people at the exhibitions have no choice but to make way.
have you seen that kinda stock footage but still nice picture of the woman who had a breast removed, standing with arms open wide against a blue sky? i hope one day i can be that free.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah; Art isn't necessarily for others. It can be for yourself. The term 'dire necessity' comes to mind. Things sometimes go beyond choice. Each of us is a kind of art, or a canvas with certain things encripted on it. Your value may be hidden to some; but there are others who are meant to see it. It's not how many you reach, but how deeply. I believe in your value.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

You're not strange, b...you're just more real than a lot of people.

I consider that a plus.

[boddah (boddah)]

is anybody out there?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I am here, Boddah....

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I've been out there for a long time.

Boddah; I just did a dogpile search on R.A.Lafferty, and some of his books are available. I didn't look far. amazon's prices are high. There was a site called alibris that had some available used at low prices ($2.95 and up). The short story books are probably easier to handle. He was better at them than novels. But I like the novels too. They just aren't like anything you'd expect from a novel. Often they don't seem like they're really going anywhere. But maybe you'd like that. I just enjoy the places and odd characters along the way.

[boddah (boddah)]

bob-
what's a dogpile search? you keep saying that. i get a discout at alibris, that's where i was headed anyway. if you're ever looking for out of print stuff, abe (ay-be-ee) books.com is also good.
any specific titles you recommend?

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Dogpile is a search site at www.dogpile.com (http://www.dogpile.com)

It's much more focused than google and easier to use. I'm looking at what they have at Alibris. Nine Hundred Grandmothers, Strange Doings, Ringing Changes, Lafferty in Orbit and Does Anyone Else Have Something Further to Add are all short story collections as I recall. You might want to just try the cheapest one. There probably is some overlap in stories. I could look into that at some future point if you want, maybe over Christmas break. I have off between Christmas and New Years Day. Past Master is a novel in which Thomas More is one of the characters in a setting on some other planet.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I can remember hunting through used book stores for Lafferty things, even seeking out books of mixed authors to get one story from him that I didn't have. There was a used book dealer out in Iowa (I think) named Chris Drumm and another guy up in Canada named Dan Knight, who published some of his things. It was kind of fun crawling through the dusty book stores trying to read the books' spines and sometimes finding treasures. But my back finds the web easier. Of course, I have more than I can get to, and only buy new things very ocassionally.

One other author I might suggest is named David Lindsay; but there's more than one guy with the name. This one wrote 'Voyage to Arcturus' and 'The Haunted Woman'. The characters are kind of oddly formal with each other, but there is a sense of the paranormal in each of the books that is rather profoundly real seeming. Arcturus has a lot of philosophical stuff in it with an ending I never quite understood; but it's one of my favorite books. There's a lot of creative variety within it. The characters seem both more real than they should and kind of wooden at the same time.

Something interesting about Lindsay is that he died from an infected jaw because he didn't get his teeth taken care of. It was an excruciatingly painful way to go.There's a lot of writing about pain near the end of Arcturus, which you might understand better than I. Also, you probably have more philosophical background than I do. I found out about him from C.S.Lewis. Arcturus is relatively easy to find in sci/fi sections of used book stores, or at least it used to be. I've seen it online at Amazon.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Boddah,
In the early 70s I went through a terrible bout of depression. During those days I came across this poem. I hope it helps you:

The Hound of Heaven
I fled Him, down the nights and down the days;
I fled Him, down the arches of the years;
I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways
Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears
I hid from Him, and under running laughter.
Up vistaed hopes I sped;
And shot, precipitated,
Adown Titanic glooms of chasmèd fears,
From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.
But with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
They beat -- and a voice beat
More instant than the Feet --
"All things betray thee, who betrayest Me."

I pleaded, outlaw-wise,
By many a hearted casement, curtained red,
Trellised with intertwining charities;
(For, though I knew His love Who followèd,
Yet was I sore adread
Lest, having Him, I must have naught beside.)
But, if one little casement parted wide,
The gust of his approach would clash it to :
Fear wist not to evade, as Love wist to pursue.
Across the margent of the world I fled,
And troubled the gold gateways of the stars,
Smiting for shelter on their clangèd bars ;
Fretted to dulcet jars
And silvern chatter the pale ports o' the moon.
I said to Dawn : Be sudden -- to Eve : Be soon ;
With thy young skiey blossoms heap me over
From this tremendous Lover--
Float thy vague veil about me, lest He see !
I tempted all His servitors, but to find
My own betrayal in their constancy,
In faith to Him their fickleness to me,
Their traitorous trueness, and their loyal deceit.
To all swift things for swiftness did I sue ;
Clung to the whistling mane of every wind.
But whether they swept, smoothly fleet,
The long savannahs of the blue ;
Or whether, Thunder-driven,
They clanged his chariot 'thwart a heaven,
Plashy with flying lightnings round the spurn o' their feet :--
Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue.
Still with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
Came on the following Feet,
And a Voice above their beat--
"Naught shelters thee, who wilt not shelter Me."

I sought no more that after which I strayed,
In face of man or maid ;
But still within the little children's eyes
Seems something, something that replies,
They at least are for me, surely for me !
I turned me to them very wistfully ;
But just as their young eyes grew sudden fair
With dawning answers there,
Their angel plucked them from me by the hair.
"Come then, ye other children, Nature's -- share
With me" (said I) "your delicate fellowship ;
Let me greet you lip to lip,
Let me twine with you caresses,
Wantoning
With our Lady-Mother's vagrant tresses,
Banqueting
With her in her wind-walled palace,
Underneath her azured daïs,
Quaffing, as your taintless way is,
From a chalice
Lucent-weeping out of the dayspring."
So it was done :
I in their delicate fellowship was one --
Drew the bolt of Nature's secrecies.
I knew all the swift importings
On the wilful face of skies ;
I knew how the clouds arise
Spumèd of the wild sea-snortings ;
All that's born or dies
Rose and drooped with ; made them shapers
Of mine own moods, or wailful or divine ;
With them joyed and was bereaven.
I was heavy with the even,
When she lit her glimmering tapers
Round the day's dead sanctities.
I laughed in the morning's eyes.
I triumphed and I saddened with all weather,
Heaven and I wept together,
And its sweet tears were salt with mortal mine ;
Against the red throb of its sunset-heart
I laid my own to beat,
And share commingling heat ;
But not by that, by that, was eased my human smart.
In vain my tears were wet on Heaven's grey cheek.
For ah ! we know not what each other says,
These things and I ; in sound I speak--
Their sound is but their stir, they speak by silences.
Nature, poor stepdame, cannot slake my drouth ;
Let her, if she would owe me,
Drop yon blue bosom-veil of sky, and show me
The breasts o' her tenderness ;
Never did any milk of hers once bless
My thirsting mouth.
Nigh and nigh draws the chase,
With unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy ;
And past those noisèd Feet
A Voice comes yet more fleet --
"Lo ! naught contents thee, who content'st not Me."

Naked I wait thy Love's uplifted stroke !
My harness piece by piece Thou hast hewn from me,
And smitten me to my knee ;
I am defenceless utterly.
I slept, methinks, and woke,
And, slowly gazing, find me stripped in sleep.
In the rash lustihead of my young powers,
I shook the pillaring hours
And pulled my life upon me ; grimed with smears,
I stand amid the dust o' the mounded years --
My mangled youth lies dead beneath the heap.
My days have crackled and gone up in smoke,
Have puffed and burst as sun-starts on a stream.
Yea, faileth now even dream
The dreamer, and the lute the lutanist ;
Even the linked fantasies, in whose blossomy twist
I swung the earth a trinket at my wrist,
Are yielding ; cords of all too weak account
For earth with heavy griefs so overplussed.
Ah ! is Thy love indeed
A weed, albeit an amaranthine weed,
Suffering no flowers except its own to mount ?
Ah ! must --
Designer infinite !--
Ah ! must Thou char the wood ere Thou canst limn with it ?
My freshness spent its wavering shower i' the dust ;
And now my heart is as a broken fount,
Wherein tear-drippings stagnate, spilt down ever
From the dank thoughts that shiver
Upon the sighful branches of my mind.
Such is ; what is to be ?
The pulp so bitter, how shall taste the rind ?
I dimly guess what Time in mists confounds ;
Yet ever and anon a trumpet sounds
From the hid battlements of Eternity ;
Those shaken mists a space unsettle, then
Round the half-glimpsed turrets slowly wash again.
But not ere him who summoneth
I first have seen, enwound
With glooming robes purpureal, cypress-crowned ;
His name I know, and what his trumpet saith.
Whether man's heart or life it be which yields
Thee harvest, must Thy harvest-fields
Be dunged with rotten death ?

Now of that long pursuit
Comes on at hand the bruit ;
That Voice is round me like a bursting sea :
"And is thy earth so marred,
Shattered in shard on shard ?
Lo, all things fly thee, for thou fliest me !
"Strange, piteous, futile thing !
Wherefore should any set thee love apart ?
Seeing none but I makes much of naught" (He said),
"And human love needs human meriting :
How hast thou merited --
Of all man's clotted clay the dingiest clot ?
Alack, thou knowest not
How little worthy of any love thou art !
Whom wilt thou find to love ignoble thee,
Save Me, save only Me ?
All which I took from thee I did but take,
Not for thy harms,
But just that thou might'st seek it in My arms.
All which thy child's mistake
Fancies as lost, I have stored for thee at home :
Rise, clasp My hand, and come !"
Halts by me that footfall :
Is my gloom, after all,
Shade of His hand, outstretched caressingly ?
"Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest,
I am He Whom thou seekest !
Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest me."

[boddah (boddah)]

thanks jim. lovely poem.
looked up francis thompson, he was an ex-med student reduced to selling matches because he wanted to write, then became an opium addict but was saved by the charity of a couple who helped him publish before he died of tb... this particular poem is said to have influenced tolkein quite a bit. interesting life.
thompson has a way with imagery. i will say, though, that at least in word choice, this poem seems to vilify the female. (except in the part where the poet is veiling himself from the "lover," in which he seems to cast himself as female? is that a self-worth thing?) none of this is the point, i know, and not so unusual considering the poem's time and subject.
anyway, thanks.

[boddah (boddah)]

jim-
i don't know if you're getting the email i sent, twice i've gotten a message back saying delivery is delayed? wanted to tell you dan was ok, it's sciatica and arthritis, but he's mobile, so that's so much better. there was more, but whatever...

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Sorry I am so slow. Got it. Praying for you both. Will get back to you soon.

Is my gloom, after all,
Shade of His hand, outstretched caressingly ?
"Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest,
I am He Whom thou seekest !
Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest me."

Psalm 91:1-6 (ESV)
He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will abide in the shadow of the Almighty.
[2] I will say to the Lord, "My refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust."
[3] For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler
and from the deadly pestilence.
[4] He will cover you with his pinions,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness is a shield and buckler.
[5] You will not fear the terror of the night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,
[6] nor the pestilence that stalks in darkness,
nor the destruction that wastes at noonday.

[boddah (boddah)]

jim-
no problem, you have a life. i wanted to be sure my email was working.
i'm sorry. i don't follow the bold. looking for a pattern... is it "fear not"?
could you paraphrase for me?

[boddah (boddah)]

this is a song by greg brown, also covered live by ani di franco.
i expect it will make you guys all sad, but it's exactly how i feel sometimes. so, you know, honesty-policy etc.


"Oh Lord, I have made you a place in my heart
among the rags and the bones and the dirt,
There's piles of lies,
and love gone from her eyes,
and old moving boxes full of hurt.
Pull up a chair, there's one over there,
I got whiskey, you're welcome to some...
Oh Lord, I have made you a place in my heart
but I didn't reckon you were gonna come.

I've tried to fix up the place,
I know it's a disgrace,
you get used to it after a while-
with the flood and the drought,
and old pals hanging out,
with their IOU's and their smiles.
Bare naked women keep coming in
and they dance like you wouldn't believe...
Oh Lord, I have made you a place in my heart
so please close the door when you leave.

Lord, why does the cold get colder each year?
Why can't I learn to love?
Lord, if you made me, then it's easy to see
that you all make mistakes up above.
But if I open the door, you will know I'm poor
and my secrets are all that I own...
Oh Lord, I have made you a place in my heart
I suggest that you leave it alone."

[lee (lee)]

That is so sad and lonely. It reminds me of my childhood. Somehow, the neighbors baptist encouragements and our catholic upbringing did nothing to ease the pain of what was really happening. I've always wondered where God was then.

[boddah (boddah)]

just exactly right.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Karen, I tried to send you mail today, but it won't leave my mail box and I don't know why. I'm praying for you. Hold steady.

For those of you who deal in threads especially; please check out the embroidery books put out by someone named Helen M. Stevens. She is phenomenal. A truly great artist in the field of embroidery. I've been looking through the latest of her books; a Christmas gift to be for my wife Mary. This is stuff anyone should like; flowers, insects, birds and landscapes. I would consider buying her books if my wife weren't already collecting them.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I did do a drawing tonight. I don't know how long it's been, but it's good to have done another. Come to Lenox in the Spring, Boddah, and I'll give you one. It would be a joy to meet you. Or maybe you can send Kurt's imaginary friend. I'm not prejudiced.

[minutus (minutus)]

"Please come to Lenox in the springtime..."

Gee, Bob, you could make a song out of that http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

[boddah (boddah)]

"come to lenox in the spring" sounds like some kind of instinctive migration-- is that common? do you get a lot of strangers in their bathrobes wandering around the town sqare, trying to build nests out of duct tape?

actually, i'd like to go to lenox again. haven't been back since the "migration" to balto. it is beautiful up there. my friend went there last summer and took pictures all over the old campus, so i have those. i creep dan out by getting them out periodically and pointing to the overgrowth, and saying stuff like "the swingset used to be right here!" my friend also did all the stuff that she never got to when we lived there. Tanglewood, nice restaurants, etc. man, i haven't been on vacation forever.

must have felt good. what'd you draw?
do you do drawing pencil, charcoal, pastel? you mentioned colored pencil- that's one of my personal preferences.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

It's whatever it is. I didn't give it a name; though in the past I normally would. I haven't worked with charcoal or pastels. I think I might like pastels. Most of what I've done has been with colored pencils, and usually 5.5 x 8.5". I first started seriously pursuing it back in late 1973 during my first trip. I started with colored markers. I did a lot of drawings with regular pen and once got in trouble with an employer because I'd drawn all kinds of abstract doo-dads on the sides of boxes. He didn't know what to say when I openly admitted it. Turns out I was the '****in' artist'. It's funny in retrospect, and I didn't lose my job. I was in charge of the department (two of us) at the time. I've also worked to a limited degree with water colors and oils. I'm expecting acrylics might be a bit easier to work with. Watercolors are too easy to work to death. It's so easy to wreck them. I suppose you get better if you stick with them.

I don't usually start out trying to consciously draw 'real' things. Often I'll just choose a color and put it to the paper and do whatever is in my hand. I choose other colors as I go and try to be sort of spiritually organic about it, figuring that my subconscious will bring the form and coloring that will work for what should be there. If I start to see something particular in it, I might seek to enhance or even partly hide or disguise it. I'm just one of those airheads who thinks that every line drawn has significance. And I do feel that it is 'me on paper'; but the difficulty of anyone seeking to interpret it makes it so that people not liking it doesn't usually bother me. I'm used to standing apart from the herd anyway, and realise that only certain kinds of people will like particular aspects of what I am. This is really true of everyone, but people like to hide in the boxes so they won't feel alone.

I guess that largely, having God as my believed designer and considering myself loved by and sent by Him makes it easier to not look for more general acceptance. It's nice to have a few people who deeply understand parts of who I am. Karen and LuAnn Herring are like that for me. But generally I have to hide a lot of what I really think so that I can function 'normally' with other people. I don't like having to do that; but sometimes being open and honest can hurt others. This really is a good place to air stuff out. It's personal and not personal at the same time. You can leave when you want, or ignore things, or let it all out. Most of the people you rub shoulders with day to day don't read here. Interestingly, they usually asume you think just like them unless you deliberately inform them that you don't. So we walk around with all these masks; the family mask (which is more transparent than most), the work or school mask, the church masks (varying according to which ones you go to), etc. We live out our lives in mostly BS. Wouldn't it be nice to be more like Jesus. But, oh my; He even spoke in parables. So some degree of unrevealed innerness must be appropriate. Still, it is refreshing to be able to talk at length about what you really think.

I try not to give false impressions deliberately; but I don't always seek to correct them when they're already there. I don't drive into the church parking lot with the Red Hot Chili Peppers blazing away; but if someone from there 'catches' me listening to them elsewhere; hey, so what. I did once open my trunk in the parking lot to get something out for one of the church council members when I had my empties in there. He didn't say anything. People there are in various places in regards to alcohol. Usually the ones it's likely to most hurt or offend are those who have family history of alcoholism. You sort of learn who some of them are and avoid hurting them. Then in different situations you sometimes know whether it'll work or not. Actually, in the church my wife goes to on Saturday nights, they offer people a choice when it comes to Communion; and it seems to work okay there.

[lee (lee)]

I've been distracted of late but I wanted to get back to talking about something someone mentioned somewhere about artists feeling like they prostitute themselves? I always wondered why that word inparticular was used so often with artists and their work! It was used in my teacher's days and its still being used today. Why?

I can tell you it still effects me today. It happens when I go to the studio to work and instead of doing instinctively what I want to do, I get entangled with the thoughts of making a living, marketing myself, how much will I be influenced by others, is my work good enough (good enough for what and for whom and where?)

I think as artists, we all want our work to be as pure as possible, to speak clearly regardless of the style and to have an audience.

I get under pressure to make money, so I start scheming about how I could paint paintings smaller, quicker, cheaper......appeal more to the general public that by in large is ignorant about art (not always their fault) I get myself believing that I can devot some time to the commercial part and then, when thats settled, I'll do the work thats really in my heart.

Thats when I feel the statements about prostituting my art come back at me......for me, its the voice of my teachers. I also had teachers that advocate the prostitution!

Just as I made a firm decision to focus on oils, I've made a decison to focus on what I want to paint, not be dictated to by other things. BUT, how does one make a living? I'm too old to work 2 jobs now. Jack doesn't need to work more. There has to be a way to market yourself honestly. If it doesn't take off, then you just get reduced.

I've been fortunate to have shows and to sell pretty well. I've had many stops and starts......a sick mother, family needs, immediate money needs (job)......its been a challenge to pick up where I left off, or try to squeeze hours of peak creativity in a small time.

It ws Bob or Boddah that brought this up......is this what you were getting at?

How's the school going? Projects done and enjoyed?

[silview (silview)]

To me, spiritual art is just a type of art.
Depending on how one views an art, even graffiti is an art.... btw, where is a good website to buy a poster (other than allposter.com)?
I like artistic websites, and I found another one today. It's a cool website specializing in Japanese teas. http://www.teanobi.com

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Lee, is sounds like you need what a lot of artists need...an agent. I fully intend to hire a good literary agent for my first substantial foray into the world of publishing. They take a percentage but I am of the opinion that I am clueless as to how to manouver in the world of publishing, and using an agent will teach me the ropes, get me published and hopefully help me make enough contacts to deal myself eventually.

It's an idea, at least to get you established to the point where the details don't cut into the creative process.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

BTW, folks...I have added two new short pieces to the "To Gladden the Heart at Christmastime" thread if any are so inclined...*s*

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Sorry Lee; I brought up the 'P' word. I've always struggled with this kind of idea. I have trouble with getting paid for what I do out of love or 'inner need'. It's not that getting paid is bad. It's that I don't want that influencing what comes out. I see this troubes you also. I guess partly it's my belief that the Holy Spirit is the major cog in the creative process for me; and I feel funny about getting something out of what He deserves credit for. And I don't want Him hindered by what others want me to produce. Maybe I just have my own particular kind of little box that I choose to live in.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Silview; 'Concerning the Spiritual in Art' is the name of a book by the 'abstract' artist Wassily Kandinsky. Part of my point in raising this thread was a belief that all art has spiritual basis behind it; that creativity can only be had from God. Of course, what constitutes art is a very debatable question; whether there is 'good' and 'bad', etc. It's a long, convoluted thread.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I think I disagree a bit with you Bob.

I believe that God gives varied gifts to his children...creative gifts as well as gifts of learning, medicine etc. It is a fallacy that every gift must be a service gift to deserve renumeration, i.e., it is "proper" to pay a doctor for his services.

Without the creative gifts he has given mankind, where would the appreciation of Him outside of the box come from? He created the glory of the sunset, but the person who recreates the glory is also necessary for those who have not seen such a sunset, so they too might appreciate Him.

As a child and to this very day, all I knew of the beauty of a desert were from paintngs, photographs, and tales told by creative people. The blind may never experience God's physical beauty here on earth, but take him to Tanglewood, buy him a seat in the Shed when they play Mozart, the man will hear in the notes God's very heartbeat.

People who are gifted in the arts have given mankind's experience in this world of pain, an extra chance at touching Him. God says to pay a workman his true wages, does he not?

No one need ever feel guilty of taking money for the job God has gifted them for. Any artist of any type is necessary to help understand the grace and intent of the creator and we cannot do without them. Even artists we do not appreciate...say Maplethorpe, has his place in the world, even if it is seen as to display unpleasant subjects. The world is not heaven after all.

Lee's trees, Boddah's verse, your love of music, my stories, my sister's breathtaking photography all beauty in art and creative exercise... add dimension to the experience of our humanity and our spirituality.

I won't feel one pang of guilt should I ever be blessed to see my words bound and for sale at Barnes and Noble, I will consider it God's blessing!

[boddah (boddah)]

rj
it's not guilt for me so much as feeling like i'm banging my head against a brick wall. it is cool to see my words in print, like i did something for real... but then the weight of the world's ignorance and prejudice falls back on me, i look around barnes and noble and think, dear lord, these people have my words now. they've had other words before, and look what happened. nothing changes.
if i mention this, invariably someone gets into the "even if you only change one life of one person who walks by and reads one poem" discussion, and of course they're right.
but no matter how perfectly i express what i set out to express in an artwork, it doesn't fix the world, and that's kind of an unrealistic expectation i have when i'm high on art.
because of that, getting paid for art and trading it like a commodity like all the other commodities at the mall that don't fix anything seems like i'm party to fraud.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I understand that part...I always wonder when people read anything I write if they connect at all, or question myself "what possible right do you have to express the obvious that no one else sees"...but I can only do what I know how to do. I can't paint, can't have children, can't be powerful enough to change the worngs. All I can do is add what I hope is something to the experience, my own and someone who might happen to flip through my words and find something meaningful.

Maybe it its the lack of control that becomes a darkness, I don't know. But if the system is what it is and I can't change it, I can hope that some small piece of myself is left behind somewhere that will count.

I said once that if I ever get published, hardcover, I was going to buy enough books to send a copy to one library in every state in America. That way when I die I know there;'s at least one cahnce in a million that someone will read my words someday *LOL*

Most of my short stories are very dark, brooding pieces that might shock some people here, but I do hope to publish them someday. My friend Bonnie says I must really make my husband wonder where all that darkness comes from...I rather feel comfortable when the darker recesses of me find their way to the surface and want to be tended to, want to be heard. I have never denied the darker side of my psyche equal time.

I also can relate to what you say about going home for Christmas. Now that my mother has passed I miss the old times before life got so complicated, but I don't belong with those people anymore. My father remarried the witch from hell a few short months after my mother died and destroyed whatever family-ness we once had. So hubby and I stay right here with David, the disabled man we work for...we became our own family and it rocks...no overcharged emotions, no expectations, no Martha freakin Stewart holiday perfection and seldom a Hallmark moment...*LOL* We spend most of our money sending gifts to kids who won't get a visit from Santa through a program we are involved in, so we hang out and enjoy each other here.

And Jeannie's right...we're only a keyboard away if the trip home gets hairy.

[minutus (minutus)]

What's wrong with truly blessing someone's life (or possibly disturbing them from mundane complacency - also a public service) and getting paid for it? Yes, you lose "control" and face having your inner self most often misunderstood by others, but someone somewhere will "get it." Then you've touched another soul in a totally unique way and that's a blast.

[minutus (minutus)]

Come to think of it, that's a lot like preaching http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"What's wrong with truly blessing someone's life (or possibly disturbing them from mundane complacency - also a public service) and getting paid for it?"

Nothing really...sometimes the writer begins to question and get introspective is all *LOL*

I swear if I publish a book, and Oprah (who I don't like at ALL) likes it and gets her fans to buy it cuz she says to, I will be everybit as hypocritical as it gets and take every freakin' dime to the bank with a smile *LOL*

Yup...I am that bad. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gif

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

A bit of misunderstanding here. Getting paid is not wrong. look at this from another angle; commercialism. Think about great bands that suddenly radically changed their style, dumbing it down to try to sell more records. The 'government' of the industry does this. It looks for formulas by which it can sell, not true quality (unless quality happens to make it big 'by accident'). Alanis Morrisette was an 'accident'. The industry went on to make a formula out of what she did. The formula doesn't taste as good or living as the accident did. The Beatles were a fabulous band. A lot of their clones were not. Some of this imitation is from the bands themselves; but much is from producers' decisions.

Editors who don't write themselves chop hundreds of pages from what writers have done. Look what usually happens in the transition from a book to a movie. The movie tends to be a vastly distorted version of the book. Why? Money considerations are a large part of it. With government dollars comes government influence.

I work for a living in an industry that is sort of arts related. But I have zero influence on what we do. My job is not my life and it is not my art and it is not the measure of my worth. I just have to do something to make money. My Dad lived for his job. I learned from that not to. If my art is separate from 'the system', then it can be whatever comes out. I'm not trying to please someone else's tastes that I consider inferior. I can let the Spirit take me wherever He wants. Possibilities are endless. With the dollars comes outside control. You get paid so someone else can control and alter your production to suit their ends. It's like being told to 'give a five minute introduction'. What if God's not done after five minutes? Are you supposed to keep checking your watch? Perhaps we could have a gong and a big hook.

Now, obviously we have to have money to live. If you run your own business, then you have more say in what you do; but what about if it's not selling? People who try to live by imitation are not 'cutting edge'. The edge is the place where you're outside the pack, taking risks. If you 'get lucky' and really hit it big, then you may be able to afford to take your art wherever it will take you. I'll just do that anyway and not try to make money from it. It's not my job. It's my response to what's within.

By all means, make money with your art if that's what God gives you. It's not even that catering to the tastes of others is necessarily bad. It's just not my particular place. That's not my faith place. I think of Franz Kafka working for an insurance company and then staying up late into the night writing. His value to posterity is not what he did in insurance. It's his writings. He published some and left instructions for the rest to be burned after his death. Max Brod (bless him!) stopped by the house as Kafka's mother was in the process of doing so, and rescued the other things from him we have. His written words influence the way I perceive things more than insurance contracts do. He made more money from the insurance. They paid his medical bills and pension even after his health made it so he could no longer work. So, thank God that the insurance industry could support such a great writer, whom they saw as one of their employees. How many paintings did Van Gogh sell during his lifetime? I remember them finding a bunch of them lining a chicken coup. But today he's displayed in museums throughout the world. What Kafka wrote in secret is read from the rooftops of the world. God arranged it that way. What we do belongs to Him. It doesn't really matter if it's received or praised or not. It's to and for Him.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Roberta, It's good to hear David is still around. It always blessed me to see the way you and Scott cared for him. How is his health?

[boddah (boddah)]

rj-
i would love to read one of your stories. if you don't want to post it, is your email address somewhere around? i could get it that way. only if you want, though.

also, when someone asked jerry springer where he went when fights broke out on his stage, he said, "to the bank." http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

minutus-
nothing's exactly wrong with losing some control, it's just terrifying. artists are sensitive types!

bob-
it's actually kinda funny how fast the press jumps on the work of previously unappreciated artists the second they kick the bucket.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

boddah

you will find a few of my stories here

http://www.realm-of-shade.com/whiterose/thecottage.html

[boddah (boddah)]

thanks rj!

[boddah (boddah)]

rj, i like the subtle gothic quality of the site you linked to above. quiet, dark but not at all deliberately "scary." i want to read more before i comment on specific pieces, but the site is very cool.
i love to go to the medieval faire, and they used to have a ghost walk at the one in ohio (it closed.) you'd pay a dollar and they'd let you through these huge rusty gates, to travel this little winding path through the woods with stops along the way with information on witchburning or old rememdies and superstitions. the stops were set up with the usual cobwebs, torches, fake skeletions... but somehow, it wasn't the "ride" that i felt, it was the unearthly quiet in those woods. that silence had so much to say. i thought i could see other dimensions, hear a grain of dust settle. don't get that feeling out in the square with the jesters and actors. a lot of people must have felt it because everyone tended to be reverent until they walked out the gates again.

reminds me of tori amos's "black dove," from the album "from the choirgirl hotel:"

She was a january girl
She never let on how insane it was
In that tiny kinda scary house
By the woods
By the woods
By the woods

Black-dove black-dove
You’re not a helicopter
You’re not a cop out either honey
Black-dove black-dove
You don’t need a space ship
They don’t know you’ve already lived
On the other side of the galaxy
She had a january world
So many storms not right somehow
How a lion becomes a mouse
By the woods
By the woods
By the woods
By the woods

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

bump. time to bring some of these things back.

[boddah (boddah)]

"there ain't no comin' back,"
to quote one of the hoodlums responsible for killing shelly webster, fiancee of brandon lee's vengeful ghost in "the crow."

[boddah (boddah)]

"there ain't no comin' back,"
to quote one of the hoodlums responsible for killing shelly webster, fiancee of brandon lee's vengeful ghost in "the crow."

[boddah (boddah)]

well, for the post i guess there was.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

bump

[bruder5 (bruder5)]

If you have a moment check out www.kingsbridgetheatre.org (http://www.kingsbridgetheatre.org). It's a new theatre group in Lewiston Maine. There winter play "Josephs Room" was wonderful.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

The Art Renewal Center put up 52 new works by Winslow Homer on Saturday and another 73 yesterday. This is an artist I've never cared much for, even though I've stood in front of his paintings and watercolors in the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston and at The Clark Art Institute in Williamstown for extended periods of time. But suddenly I get it. I'm very strongly attracted to what he's communicating. And it's the taste of the Creator behind the creator. It's something about nature and something about creativity exercised through a human instrument. And there's also a sense of that nostalgia, the 'joy' that you feel you're getting in part from a larger whole that C.S.Lewis described in Surprised by Joy, his autobiography.

I consider our God, who upholds all things by His will and holds all things together. Without Him none of this or us would be. It inspires worship in me; not of Homer or of rocks and hillsides or clothing from bygone eras; but of the God behind all that is. He Himself is my satisfaction.

Personally, I can taste something similar in Jackson Pollack, though his work is not representational of outwardly discernible reality in a direct way. We are created in God's image. He made us to be creative, to grow beyond the things we have seen and to produce new things. To speak in new artistic languages. To 'discover' light bulbs and automobiles and computers. God has not stopped creating. He's doing it through us. He rests in his love toward us, and His love does things in us that produce new life.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

" God has not stopped creating. He's doing it through us. He rests in his love toward us, and His love does things in us that produce new life."

Beautifully said, Bob, and so very true!

[orangetwopay (orangetwopay)]

some artists i like:

http://www.nerdrum.com/

http://www.hirschlandadler.com/Current/Ex02/Oct02/Rahilly/prahillyPics.html

http://www.davidlinn.com/

http://www.eikonktizo.com/

http://www.davidhcunningham.com/

http://www.grossmccleaf.com/artistpages/noelpage.htm

http://www.annnathangallery.com/pages/ruprecht_von_kaufmann.htm

[calv (calv)]

no arms
no legs
hung on a wall

ART

http://www.herndonfineart.com/phillips.htm