Dan Lewis Speaks to GGWO [Archive]

jeannie (jeannie)

12-09-2005, 08:01 PM

The Full Text:

A Declaration of Repentance and a Plea for Forgiveness
December 9, 2005
I, Daniel E. Lewis, am writing this as a confession to the church of Jesus Christ. I have already confessed to God and I believe He has forgiven me. (I John 1:9). I blame no one but myself. I am not passing the buck on to anyone but myself. I repent of having been a responsible agent of TBS/GGWO in the following sins:
1.) I did not biblically investigate accusations about people and deal with them biblically. I chose to listen to hearsay, gossip and slander and then to believe and act upon those forms of communication. This includes the fact of maligning. For this I repent of this terrible sin(s).
2.) I chose to believe that in some way I was personally part of a ministry that I thought was superior to other ministries and developed an elitist mentality. I repent of this terrible sin.
3.) I blindly chose to believe in the innocence of co-leaders in TBS/GGWO in situations and events that I failed to investigate properly. When I received knowledge contrary to my beliefs, I failed to act appropriately and correct the communication of my false assumptions. Since I too was guilty of not being innocent of the right action, I must repent. For all aspects of these sins, I repent.
4.) I actively lied to people either because I believed in unsubstantiated lies about them or knowingly lied when I knew what I was saying was a lie or lies. For this sin I repent.
5.) I believe I was deceived and knowingly did not listen and heed the Holy Spirit’s guidance when He specifically informed me of the deception. I repent.
6.) I contributed in the propagation of discrediting people and ministries that I believed were to be discredited because they differed or disagreed with me and the leadership of GGWO. I repent of this.
7.) I taught unsound doctrine and incorrect application of doctrine to young people and adults which contributed to their maybe erring in the true biblical faith. For this horrible sin and in great brokenness before God and you, I completely repent.
8.) I entered into blind allegiance to TBS/GGWO and was sinfully loyal to one man’s perception of God when I was responsible to develop my own relationship and convictions with God. For these sins I repent.
I ask the church of Jesus Christ to forgive me as God has. I would like in my repentance to be responsible for action with anyone I did sin against to work the work of repentance in their offended character. In other words, I would like to as much as possible agree quickly with any offended person and make things right where possible. I know I can not do much. But I can speak with whoever I can. I will try to correct false statements and right any wrongs if possible and within reason. My desire is to restore fellowship around the cross of Christ and even though we might not be friends in a close way, at least you will know I did all I could to make right with an offended brother any thing that I was directly and/or indirectly responsible for. Please contact me if it is necessary to speak with me directly.
I give you my email address: bishopdean@msn.com

gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)

12-09-2005, 08:41 PM

DAN,
IF YOU READ THIS, GOOD FOR YOU! SOME WILL SAY THAT THE THINGS YOU SAID HAVE THIS OR THAT TO BE DESIRED. I BELIEVE WHAT YOU HAVE SAID AND I'LL TAKE YOU AT YOUR WORD. I WILL NOT BE A NAYSAYER AND BE THANKFUL THAT GOD, THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, ISSAC AND JACOB AND OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON AND THE SWEET HOLY SPIRT, THE TRIUNE GOD, HAS MADE THEMSELVES MANIFEST TO YOU; SO THAT YOU SIR, COULD ALLOW YOURSELF TO COME TO THE PLACE YOU HAVE. THANK YOU FOR YOUR PORTION AND AVAILIBILTY. TOM MITCHELL

lee (lee)

12-09-2005, 08:51 PM

Dan, Your list is well thought out and thorough. I would have liked to see you post it here on FN yourself, but understand we aren't viewed as true witnesses (we are bitter and angry, therefore, it is not neccessary to include us) I won't pick you apart for not doing it though. FN is understandably a rough and raw place. However, I accept what you've written and hope you enjoy the fruit of repentance.

May blessings follow!

david_munson (david_munson)

12-09-2005, 09:09 PM

Dan,
this will take people a long way towards what the Lord has intended concerning reconciliation.

For you to be honest and open as you have in this letter requires a deep look at oneself in a light that is not pleasant.

Many others will be blessed by the Truth that you have admitted and you,as well as others,will find release through it.

This is the true path of fellowship.
A path that we share with each other in our growth in Christ.

I too will take you at your word and will pray the Lord will use you to reach out in reconciliation to those who need the oneness that is found only in Christ.

Some will doubt your sincerity,
others will choose to let Jesus reveal what He has done in your life.That is just how this side of eternity is.

I pray that through your honesty,there will be healing.
The Lord,He is God.

David P.Munson

}

louise_connolly (louise_connolly)

12-09-2005, 09:42 PM

Now that was interesting! I hope it is genuine. If so, I agree with Lee, may the fruit of repentance follow.

jeannie (jeannie)

12-09-2005, 10:14 PM

I have good reason to believe it is. I wrote to him and thanked him for "owning it".. his part in the counterfeit system. I truly believe as there is more confession, more speaking the truth that it will open the eyes of some who still remain in. I am very broken by God's redemptive plan in this whole saga. I believe GGWO is growing more cultic by the day and a strong voice from every camp is what is needed to make the cultic madness stop hurting so many people. And maybe today, this letter is the beginning of something God had planned along. Public confession allows the healing to begin, it allows forgiveness to be extended and it shines a strong light on how true reconciliation works. Maybe this one letter will break the walls which still separate some pastors in the IAGM from those of us on FN or from those marked many years ago by lies and slander. Maybe with unity, together we can make a difference for those who still remain under the lies. I am hoping and praying...

david_munson (david_munson)

12-09-2005, 10:48 PM

I'm in full agreement with Jeannie,my prayers are one with hers.

Bless all of you,
Dave

}

lmao (lmao)

12-09-2005, 10:51 PM

Jeannie,
Thank you for posting Dan Lewis' email. I agree with many who believe words of repentance are a good start and the actions that follow reveal the true intent of the person. I believe in this case that the man is completely genuine. Time will tell.

Perhaps you can clear up the good point Lee and others have made. How did you come to receive this? Were you asked to post it here? I am not suggesting that you needed permission since it is obviously a public declaration. My opinion is that if he intended it to be here, it does not matter whether he personally posted it or if someone posted it for him. The result is the same.

jeannie (jeannie)

12-10-2005, 12:30 AM

Yes, it was intended for everyone, including FN. A friend has been communicating with Dr. Lewis. It was to this friend Dr.Lewis sent the letter with his permission to post it here. I find it an incredible step and a start.. maybe down the road he will post himself. Every time I think about it, tears well up. And it goes back to what you posted LMAO, we are a bunch of believers living out our walk. God never intended for there to be a schism between us; man created this schism and God can mend it through us, walking in the light. Redemption and reconciliation are possible. The story isn't over yet.

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-10-2005, 12:45 AM

Both letters were beautifully done. Thank you Dean for being so honest and true to the Lord Jesus.

However, while I appreciate why Dean said why IAGM has not spoken out, I believe that it is not correct. Jesus and the Word of God lovingly tells us the truth, and while it might be painful for a time, the greater good comes out of it. There are people in a very unhealthy "Christian" environment in Baltimore. I personally would like to see the IAGM pastors speak the truth in love and expose this cancer as Dean has.

It takes alot of gutz to say, this is what I have done, I did it for all the wrong reasons, I am sorry, and please don't allow yourselves to fall into the same trap.

Followers of Christ will remain, perhaps confused for a season, but the Lord Jesus will be able to regain a place in their hearts that Carl and his "sons" have taken over.

Great work Dean!!!

isabella (isabella)

12-10-2005, 01:11 AM

Thank you Mr. Lewis!

I would ask you to converse with us...not in a negative way, but, instead in an educational way.

Converse with us...some of us...and tell us how this happened to you.

It will help many who are reading and never post.

It will help people like me, who will never again go into a so called church again. Should I?

You can help many.

Thanks,
Isabella

john_krainis (john_krainis)

12-10-2005, 01:34 AM

Bravo.

sojourner (sojourner)

12-10-2005, 02:37 AM

Don't we all need mercy?
I hope Dean and his family find comfort and encouragement...not because they jumped through some hoop for others, but because they are no less deserving than anyone else...not from God's point of view.
I think it is much harder to deal with being in the perpetrators position than the victims in that you really have to recieve forgiveness and stand in it and that takes courage when your "sin" has been put out there for the world to see.
We all get into messes...what is the real level of accountability...only God really understands why.
I just want to believe the best...it gets wearisome always looking for the bad.
God bless them.

cordell (cordell)

12-10-2005, 05:34 PM

I post the following with permission. For some weeks now I have been speaking by phone to Dan and with Kathy Lewis. For those who've read my story, Kathy was instrumental in bringing me to Christ--way back when what was to become TBS was still a Baptist church in good standing. She was a godly and exemplary lady then--and she is now. I still, after 33 years, thank God that He saw fit to send her and the other two ladies to my door that day in July of 1972.

Dan gave me permission to post his letter on FN. I am only now able to get online too late to do so, as I (believe it or not) work a real job in the real world which has kicked my rear this past week.

I am thankful to the Lord who GIVES repentance and am so very thankful to have been restored to my friend Dan Lewis. Like the rest of us (a BIG self included here) who were in any kind of leadership in TBS, he abused his position and taught error.

But unlike so very many, Dan does not play the blame game, make excuses, or attempt to evade responsibility. He takes the whole hit and from our discussions, I believe his genuine motive is to be able to live the rest of his life knowing that he can face his Lord knowing that he has done all he can in obedience to the word of God to be restored both to his Savior and to the people of God. Restoration, after all, is what Matt. 18 is all about:

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother

I am a brother who has been gained in this case. I have a lot to be thankful for. God is able to restore the years eaten up:

And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

He will turn that former curse into a blessing for us, even in these later years of our lives.

somebonus@yahoo.com

bruder5 (bruder5)

12-10-2005, 07:48 PM

Well said Cordell. All things cohere in Christ and to see His purpose found through this declaration of hope is wonderful. Dan and Kathy along with others help create an enviornment for God's transformation. "What grace has brought me safe thus far..." What could be closer to the Fathers heart then the wonder of these moments of restoration.

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

12-10-2005, 08:24 PM

www.livejounal.com/users/inmercyrejoice (http://www.livejounal.com/users/inmercyrejoice)

You may have to copy and paste the link in your browser because I think it is blocked here for some reason.

There is an interesting thing happening in my on line journal. Because there are so many from GG in LJ where I post and many are being wooed to MBC&S I decided to balance by posting links.

If you read in the comment section of where I posted you can see Gg members jumping all over me as if I am "attacking" them personally just because I am presenting a balance.

It is so sad. I feel I have a right to inform others in this site because they have only heard one side and I fear that some may go to Mbc&s without knowing what is happening.

I have tried to express myself lovingly. Please if any of you think I have presented it in an ill manner let me know.

thanks

Nancy

p.s. be sure to read the comments section in my posts to see what the gg members have written.

the_one_post_wunderkind (the_one_post_wunderkind)

12-10-2005, 09:27 PM

Dan,

This is wonderful news and you and your family are in my prayers. So, I cannot help but wonder when IAGM and GG pastors will follow in a like manner, according to their level of involvement and understanding.

On a side thought, a few years after I left GG I asked a GG pastor what happended to Joel Freeman. He told me some garbage and I asked him, what do you base this on? Schibelli and Shaller had told him so! I connected with Joel two years ago and we both chuckled at the folly of gossip and marking. Joel loves the LORD and is serving HIM.

However, Schibelli is a pugnacious egotist and Schaller is a simpleton and they both think they know the Christ of the Bible. They do not know their spirtual head from their hiney. They both need to pull it out of their master's rearend. They both worship at the feet of the idol CHS and are incapable of one original thought...what a couple of novices!

(Message edited by the one post wunderkind on December 10, 2005)

cptlauthor (cptlauthor)

12-10-2005, 09:42 PM

Thank you Dean for allowing the Holy Spirit to work in your heart. I am very encouraged by your email that others will also be changed and see the light of the Lord. I feel really good in the direction that this repentance has sent Factnet. This is what this whole place is all about. This is what we all wanted from the leadership of TBS/GGWO. You my long lost friend have now been renewed in the Spirit and in our hearts. God Bless you and Kathy. Diane Milliken

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

12-11-2005, 12:12 AM

I had posted my above comment here because the link was to Dr. Lewis's letters. Please anyone who has time to respond I would very much appreciate it. (Please be sure to read my above comment so I can understand if I did something inappropriate in my personal online journal) thanks

You can email me so as not to disturb the content of this thread at inmercyrejoice@yahoo.com

thanks so much

Nancy

I sent an email to Dan & Kathy but suspect they are getting a multitude of them so I will just say here that Dan & Kathy have never treated me with anything but love, dignity and grace. I have never heard them say anything negative about any of this even when they were counseling me through it all after I had written my letter and been marked.

They loved me through it with quiet grace supporting me and agreeing because they knew back 3 years ago things had to be addressed.

I love them both and know this has been a painful time for them. Dan & Kathy know you are loved so deeply and respected by hundreds around the world.

with love and because of His mercy,

Nancy Curra

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-11-2005, 01:51 PM

Well said everyone!!! This is what the true Christ is about. How wonderful to be part of a body of believers that live the Word, rather than just speaking it.

I am so very happy for Dean and Kathy, and I'm excited at what God is doing in their lives. Let's all keep them real foremost in our prayers. Very few before them have made such public "pen on paper" statements. GGWO may fight back, and if they do, we all need to stand solid with them.

Love you all.

sofree (sofree)

12-13-2005, 06:23 PM

Dan,

That took a great deal of humility and trust in God to come forward. God bless you for it http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

brie (brie)

12-13-2005, 06:37 PM

Question: In Dr. Lewis's first letter to GGWO dated 12/9, it states that his story will be told in 3 separate e-mails to follow. Are these available somewhere? I couldn't find them. Thx.

joyce (joyce)

12-14-2005, 01:54 PM

I read Dan Lewis’ “plea for forgiveness” yesterday. It so overwhelmed me - it has taken me this long to put my thoughts in writing….. I’m sure the relief he feels is quite unique. Probably nothing he has experienced in the 20+ years in TBS/GGWO. I can only imagine what his life has been like all these years with all that guilt. But God is in the business of redemption and this is truly a Giant Step for a man like him to take and hopefully more to follow.

It blesses me to read of all the forgiveness and encouragement FN participants offered without hesitation. Truly remarkable.

sidethorn (sidethorn)

12-14-2005, 02:24 PM

Dan,

That took great courage to step up to the plate and confess things here. May God richly bless you and help you move on in all truth and grace. I'm delighted you're out of the GGWO madness and have publicly come clean over things. Hopefully more will come clean over their own involvements in the future and live that abundant life outside the world of GGWO.

SIDETHORN

boss_martian (boss_martian)

12-14-2005, 03:51 PM

Mr. Lewis,

Are you going to continue as a pastor?

Do you still need money for the purposes outlined in the letter you sent me on August 25th, 2005?

Just wondering.

Best wishes on your journey.

Phil Calvert

isabella (isabella)

12-15-2005, 03:12 AM

Hi Boss!

I was going to ask the same thing:

Dean, Dan, Doctor Lewis:
"Are you going to continue as a pastor?"

It's not possible for D. Lewis to continue as a 'pastor'...there has to be another employment oppotunity for him, unless he ministers in another cult...also, he didn't say, but I would assume,there would be no need for monies for trips abroad to the 'missionary' destinations that no longer will welcome him....but, I'm not sure about that. I hope he will answer.

Thanks,
Isabella

nonotone (nonotone)

12-15-2005, 08:05 AM

... so much charity here. Do you all think that the families of the 1st Century Christians that Paul (prior to his conversion and commission as an Apostle) imprisoned or murdered might have thought the same thing Isabella?

God sovereignly apprehended Paul in a radical encounter that, after three years of obscurity in Arabia (see Galatians 1:17) forever changed him.

I know Dan Lewis pretty well and I believe that he is entering his "three years" (maybe more, only God knows). The same grace of God that transformed any of us can do the same for Dan. Dan has, in great humility, repented pulically. Now he will no doubt need many years for that repentance to be worked inwardly. Frankly, I don't see any ecclesiastical gerrymandering going on in what Dan is presently communicating.

Let's just not limit God's mercy here friends. Otherwise, there is no hope for any of us. In spite of misplaced loyalty to Carl for several decades, Dan still posesses a tremendous love for people, especially for some of the poorest of the poor in Eastern Russia, the Ukraine, and India. Dan also has a good command of the Scriptures, apart from Carl's "ideas". It is very possible that God will again use Dan, this time in a truly mighty way.

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Brian Bowman
1 Corinthians 1:30

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-15-2005, 09:42 AM

Amen, Brian. Very well said.

sidethorn (sidethorn)

12-15-2005, 12:49 PM

Right on Brian. Paul the apostle had his years in obsurity to prepare him for future ministry. Looks like Dan Lewis is there right now. Shouldn't other pastors who broke away from GGWO to become part of the IAGM think about taking some time off and have a preparation time of obsurity for themselves like Paul did before going back to ministry??? Hmmmm.

boss_martian (boss_martian)

12-15-2005, 01:16 PM

I didn't intend to get a big doctrinal discussion started, Brian. I merely asked two fairly simple questions.Those questions are, once again:

1. Mr. Lewis, do you intend to continue preaching?

2. Mr. Lewis, do you still require the money you asked for in a letter that YOU sent PERSONALLY to me in August of this year?

Is there some difficulty in answering these questions? Perhaps I have violated some sort of doctrine by asking. I don't feel that these questions are unfair, but I could be wrong.

Phil Calvert

bruder5 (bruder5)

12-15-2005, 01:37 PM

"Blessed are those who's strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage. Psalm 84:5

The prophet/poet Is. speaks an invitation (and forshadowing of Messiah) to come and drink. No money? Come and drink. It is the modern day version of listening deeply. Not tolerance but mercy, not inclusion but pardon. Jesus offered a couple of benchmarks that visibly defined the kingdom of God. Defining evidence of the invisible. "Love one another as I have loved you." Jesus understood that the transformation of our culture is at heart the transformation of personal relationships. God takes the initiative for this transformation and often has exile on his mind. Is it possible that God would call people out of damaged and fading systems into exile? I think so. Is it possible that the time of wandering takes longer then our systems desire. Yep. Is it possible that the God of exile and his unfolding narrative draws men and women to a new spirituality for the road? Again, I think so. God's staggering care for his people flows out of his own self disclosure seen in the person of Christ and his followers. I could use a little mercy right now. Generally speaking I'm always up for a little pardon. I love those two words. They bring repentance and joy. They convict and elevate. They define and impart all that is sacred in Jesus. After the temptation offered by Satan for the priveleged few of bread power and access came the powerful "other" language at the synagogue of Nazereth. A kingdom here and not yet. Jesus would introduce to the blind, poor, depressed, maligned/marked, foreign looking and the excluded the divine revelation of the kingdom. Later, there is a loving scene in John 20 where Jesus enters a room. The doors are shut. The disciples are in hiding. What seemed "at hand" is gone." This broken brotherhood, crushed by a recent execution experience The Night. When ghosts roam and where hope fades. Then, a few words from an univited,unexpected and resurrected guest. "Peace
be with you. As the Father has sent me so send I you." He shows them his hands and feet. The ghosts flee. The night shifts. And Jesus demonstrates three things into this defeated room.
Shalom-Peace
Ghosts run. (He showed them the evidence of his death and resurrection.
I send you. A missional command in an enviornment of defeat. The purpose of God is amoung his people in the margin's, in defeat and in the hope of his words. Peace be with you.
This is the language of grace that Dan and Kathy Lewis have access to. This is the Shalom of God's kingdom. This extends to each of us who in our exile through twilight into night may have encountered the "uninvited guest". The one thought dead and gone steps into the room with words of peace, evidence of resurrection and a declaration of mission. This royal tradition of a redemning story resonates amoung the community of believers. God is intervening amoung his people. As the angels once said, "Peace on earth good will toward men."

boss_martian (boss_martian)

12-15-2005, 01:58 PM

Why have these two simple questions aroused this outpouring of Bible verses and sermons?

I haven't said one word, not ONE, about forgiving Dan Lewis or not. I have not made a single comment about his repentance. Yet, it seems a lot of people are on the defensive. I seem to remember an organization called GGWO that would throw up a swarm of Scripture, sermons, etc., whenever a simple question was asked.

Have I stepped on toes for asking?

Daniel Lewis sent me an unsolicited e-mail in August of 2005 asking for money. He outlined his reasons for asking. I have my feelings about this letter, but I will keep them to myself, at least for now. I have simply and directly asked if he is still seeking the money for the reasons outlined in the letter.

I have also asked if he plans to continue to preach. Why is this such a touchy subject? Is this reaction the true meaning of "openess" and "transparency"? The dictionary that I have doesn't seem to define those words in the way that some here would define them. I do know that I have a mistaken idea about the definition of the word "humble". I now know that real definition of "humble" is exemplified by endlessly talking from a pulpit about how great and awesome you are. Perhaps my definitions of "openess" and "transparency" need an overhaul as well.

If it's best for me to keep silent and not ask questions, will one of you Bible scholars educate me?

I am seeking honest and open information. I will draw my conclusions once I have the whole story. I don't have the whole story at this time.

arguendo (arguendo)

12-15-2005, 02:32 PM

I think its reasonable to ask how Dan Lewis' position has changed since the August letter. I also think its reasonable to ask if he is going to continue preaching and, if so, how will he address the docitrinal errors.

Personally, I think that while Dan Lewis needs to look hard at his doctinal beliefs, I think that he needs to continue preaching and in his preaching needs express his re-evaluation of doctine. I think his doing that would be the best thing for those in GGWO.

johncollins (johncollins)

12-15-2005, 03:08 PM

Phil,

I do not think DL is reading FN regularly. I know he read this thread some days ago, not sure if he's been back to read your questions here.

His letter included his email address and an invitation to write to him. Why not ask him directly your valid and legitimate questions?

John

boss_martian (boss_martian)

12-15-2005, 03:39 PM

I will certainly do so, John.

However, several on this thread have mentioned being in close personal contact with Mr. Lewis. They have been quick to point out this amazing and heroic transformation of Mr. Lewis. I am likely missing something, but the tone I get from this thread is "everything's fine, now, let's put this whole mess behind us". One of Mr. Lewis' biggest cheerleaders on this thread, Jim Faucett (among others), has criticized the doctrine espoused by GGWO of "instant rebound". It would appear that Mr. Lewis has now "instantly rebounded".

Let me emphasize that I have not formed any firm conclusions about Mr. Lewis. I am very aware, however, of his involvement in a system that took many people, including a few that I know personally (and one in particular that I still care for deeply) that "arrived damaged" and are left damaged for the rest of their lives. The damage is spiritual, physical (to the point of suicide), and financial. He was not just a sideline player.

Mr. Lewis had no problem sending me an e-mail asking for money, yet he does not know me. His letter speaks of reconcilliation and repentance, yet, at least in the letter, he expects those he wronged (and he certainly did some some real wrong to many) to contact him. Those that are wronged are to make the first step. I am not Dan Lewis. I don't know him personally, but I am quite aware of the things he has done as part of a very public cult. If I were Dan Lewis, or one of the Stevens, and had a change of heart and sought to repent, I think I would have PLENTY of things to do such as actively seek out those I have damaged, before I had to resort to having anyone with a grievance seek ME out. But that's just me.

The tone of this thread (except for me) is how utterly AWESOME Mr. Lewis is for writing a letter. This letter was posted in a public forum and much of the public is mightily impressed. I need more information, particularly the answers to my two questions, before I can reach a decision.

Mr. Lewis' supporters will point to his letters as proof of his repentance. (I take a little issue with the doctrine of "forgive me just as God has already forgiven me", which in GGWO-speak is "let's just pretend this crap never happened", but again I'm not the learned Bible scholar like many here.) Supporters of "Tookie" Williams (founder of the Crips, who was executed on Monday for murder)point to his (supposedly his) childrens' book and his stance against gang involvement as proof of HIS repentance. It is not my intent to portray Mr. Lewis as a murderer, but he was certainly part of a dangerous organization. Actually, he was part of the leadership of GGWO. It will take a little more than the equivalent of a children's book to show me that he means what he says. Clearly, others don't need or desire that level of proof.

I'll send him an e-mail, John. But I wish he would exhibit the same zeal in seeking out those he's wronged or giving some facts as he did when asking strangers for money. But I guess I'm just hard-hearted.

david_munson (david_munson)

12-15-2005, 04:48 PM

I wouldn't say you're hard hearted Phil,just sceptical which is ok.
It will take some time to see the effects of a changed life for certain.
I give Dan credit for the eight specifics he named that he was partaker of.

Cautious encouragement with discernment is in order in a situation such as this.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being and pray for others to be encouraged to come forth with honest confession and repentance.

Digging around for everyone you could have offended is quite a task.To post your email to make this easier for you is not a bad idea.

I am not aware of every one I have offended in my life usually,unless they let me know.

The money issues are legitimate to ask him since he put them out there to you.

Time will tell and so will the shaking that's going to keep up on the Lord's part.
This isn't over by a long shot,the Lord will not share worship with Carl Stevens or any other man.

Dave

}

rj_fernalld (rj_fernalld)

12-15-2005, 04:59 PM

My reaction to Dan Lewis' letter, repentence and the reactions of others to his latest actions is caution.

If indeed Dan Lewis has had a change of mind and heart, fine. But I think it will be the fruit that will give me pause rather than open declarations. I have heard such things before. I have heard and seen many proclaim...but again, it will be the fruit that convines me.

So far, the only "fruit" I see is the reader's proclamation of this letter and statement as a bona fide miracle. I am skeptical and wonder why more of us aren't skeptical to a degree. After all it was our naivete that drew us, in part, to this cult, of which Lewis was a BIG part, a dangerous and nasty part in his dealings with others.

This first step, if it is real, is only that....a first step. Repentence on paper doesn't take as much courage as does action and applause is unhealthy at this stage. There are many many individuals that were harmed by Lewis' actions over the years, and although he may not be able to even remember who they were, there are some that I am sure cannot be forgotten and should be addressed or at least an attempt should be made to reach out to them...say Betsy D for instance? (just one I can think of)

And don't say that it is not feasible to reach out to those who have been on the wrong end of his cult nastiness...there are many that can and should be contacted. I did that...I contacted those I could when I left GGWO and repented to them personally, privately, with no fanfare or need for applause.

Lewis can, should and needs to do the same. Open letters to a few just doesn't seem like reason enough for applause. Humble yourself before those you damaged, Dan...feel the pain THEY recieved at your hand, take the heat willingly for their sake.

Then maybe I and others I have heard from might believe you and hope again. We have heard too many empty lies, promises and declarations of humility, asked for money etc.

I withhold my applause until I see the fruit. Reopentance is as I mentioned above a first step but not at all the whole journey.

I will pray that your actions are as eloquent as the noise your mouth makes. For the damage is severe to some you personally hurt and words are not going to help them unless you seek them personally.

My stance is not a popular one I am sure, but so be it.

lee (lee)

12-15-2005, 05:06 PM

Boss....I don't think you are hard-hearted. A lesson I've had to learn many times, is that God doesn't always make people into what we'd like them to be, the way we'd like them to be, when we'd like them to be. Just like, I am not always the way others would want me to repsond to them, when and how they would prefer. Certainly, it would've been nice if Dan came here and talked to us personally, but, he probably won't. I think he probbaly would've preferred not to receive the letter I wrote him after receiving his letter.

When my Dad stopped drinking, I hoped he would apologize to us. Have heart to heart talks with us, begin to love us as we 'deserved' to be loved. He never did do that, but over the years, he did things that spoke clearly of his repentance and love for us. I found this was much more meaningful than words. He actually built a home for our mother, and , on top of the garage built a beautiful room he called the studio. I think he built it for me, but I never did get to use it. My sister, an alcoholic and drug user, with her two children moved in and stayed there till he died. He tried to bless me in his way, but, he also reaped what he had sown. This sister of mine was not the only damaged child he brought into the world.

I think, we do need to respond in mercy and forgiveness because it clears the way for more healing in all our lives. It was a walk out for us. It has to be a walk out for him. Even if we sprint out of there, God will slow us down at some point and go over things with us. It's my opinion that He has a lot to show us.

You've been a good friend to us. You've done research, you've been willing to learn and be corrected. You've supported those of us who at times have been hurting and venting. I for one, am grateful. I'm also grateful for Lewis's letters. I'll look for the next 2 installments on the other forums!!

Thanks Boss........I like your candidness. You make me think and feel that it is not necessary to always be uptight about being a 'good' christian with a perfect testimony..... I can relax and be myself, in the presence of God. No pretending! This I value. Besides, I'm no ballerina who can walk on her toes all the time!

lee (lee)

12-15-2005, 06:42 PM

I just read a letter written by Paul Stevens and posted on the discussggwo site. I think it shows (at least to me), that it is indeed a walk out. I believe Paul has steadily walked out, with concern for his family and congregation. He has humbled himself, sought counsel......yadda, yadda, yadda. I hold him in high esteem for facing the truth and telling the truth. His actions build trust. May we all continue to walk, whether it is weak, stumbling, or not. Sounds to me, like Paul is working with God to rebuild a broken life. Blessings to you.

iris (iris)

12-15-2005, 07:47 PM

I think Daniel Lewis is not only apologizing but using this apology as an accusation. It is the same if I wrote publicly: "I am so sorry and regret that I just stood by when my husband beat our children."

I guess there is SOMETHING genuine in it, too, but you can't avoid seeing the calculation underneath.

boss_martian (boss_martian)

12-15-2005, 08:07 PM

Thanks, Lee, RJ, and David.

My main concern, just as it continues to be with the IAGM and Paul and Steve Stevens is that they expect to recieve this "instant rebound" and then continue to pastor (LEAD!) a church. To me, being a pastor of any denomination is a position that is EARNED, through a lot of study, a lot of integrity, and a calling to serve God by serving those who seek God. To me, just having a "calling" is not enough. I have a calling to fly airplanes. I have never flown an airplane in my life, although I work on them every day. Should I be allowed to walk outside and take passengers up in an aircraft just because of my "calling"? HELL NO! If I put in the study and have the integrity to insure that I'm always putting the safety of others first, then perhaps I can fly an airplane.

The tenor of this thread, so far, has been to rain adulation upon Mr. Lewis for writing a letter. I think it is a HUGE first step. It is, however, only a first step. I don't care what anyone says, he needs to learn how to be a pastor with integrity and wisdom before he can become a pastor. I will never agree that someone should be in charge of others while they learn. To return to the airline analogy, a pilot doesn't carry passengers while he or she learns to fly a plane. THE STAKES ARE FAR TOO HIGH! I see little difference with being a pastor, particularly after looking at the abomination at GGWO.

If indeed Mr. Lewis is truly repentant and is doing what he can to make things right (although there is no remote possibility of making it right), more power to him. Same with Paul Stevens. The problem I have is someone who has clearly abused the position of pastor continuing along as if nothing has happened while they "learn" how to be a good leader. Who is the check and balance? The congregation? The same people that used to cheer until they wet their pants when Carl got up on stage? The same people that marked their parents or their kids because some freak in a wig said to? I love these people, and they are victims, but just as wouldn't want an alcoholic brother or sister driving a beer delivery truck, I don't want a disafilliated pastor in charge of a flock. The temptation is too great. Further, I don't want to see anyone get screwed while the ALMIGHTY PASTOR learns how to lead.

Again, Lewis' letter was posted in a public forum. Many, many people who clearly love him treat it like a miracle. I am asking two questions and I get told to ask him myself. The adulation for DEAN Lewis is here for all those still at GGWO to read, but two fair questions have to be asked off-line. Go figure.

dancer (dancer)

12-15-2005, 08:13 PM

I have to tell you that frankly I never saw anybody who was more loyal to CHS than Dean. PERIOD! This includes remarks about Billy Graham, people who gone against the ministry etc.

Reading his letter seems not only real but truly miraculous beyond belief. I can honestly say that if he can pen it, then he cannot only walk on he can help make a difference.

He needs to walk away from those who recreate a similar experience but frankly the man who I admired but at times feared is more of man than most who have yes sir themselves into being counted.

Does he other motives? I hope so. I like the idea that he is looking in the manner he is and saying what he is. I hope it is a calculated move. I wish others had been this smart at the end of the day.

What if the likes of Sutorius, Lewis, Lutz, and Leonard where to team up together to bring an end to the non sense that has been going on all this time. It will be not only effective it would devastate those who woul hurt families and other God fearing people.

sidethorn (sidethorn)

12-15-2005, 08:28 PM

There's nothing wrong here with being cautious Boss! I myself would be very cautious with Dan Lewis myself. For now I will give him the benefit of the doubt and believe there's repentance in his heart. However I will not any time soon open up every area of my life to him, share my private concerns with him or let him be my pastor. Dan should really take a long time out with the Lord to unlearn any false teachings and cultic paradigms that may still be in his life and let the Lord anoint him for His own service in the Lord's time. I also think Dan should seek those that he hurt himself for reconciliation and not ask people to come to him for that! Thats Dan's job if he's really serious about repenting and reconciling. I do hope Dan will progress here in repentance and renewal and seek out those he hurt. Time will tell.

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-15-2005, 10:32 PM

Boss, I re read all that was said above, and I don't think Brian, Bruder or anyone was speaking to you. I think they were commenting on the whole thread and mercy, forgiveness and redemption.

You can ask any questions you want here, or in a private email or whatever. If someone is offended by that (and I must repeat, cuz I love ya, as a friend) I don't think any of the comments were directed towards you.

You are, as Lee said so beautifully, you have always been a true friend to us all, and I know I always love to read your posts, and feel comfortable doing so. Love ya Boss!!!

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-15-2005, 10:34 PM

There is one thing I do hold against you Boss, if you must know, and I am not ready to repent for it yet.

I really feel that you should have been in Maine in August for the reunion. But then, being the imperfect chit I am, perhaps I am being selfish, after all YOU DID HAVE TO WORK!!!.

david_munson (david_munson)

12-15-2005, 10:50 PM

I don't think that folks are being naive about Dan Lewis' letter.I think it may be more of building him up to walk in the right path which we are seeing here.

We should always encourage each other to do what is right and just towards our fellow members.
The body is what keeps the flow of life going from member to member.

A great lesson has been learned from all the things that have taken place,both good and bad.
We know enough to "watch always."

Dave

}

lmao (lmao)

12-16-2005, 12:40 AM

Why should we assume that Dan Lewis and other former GG leaders who make declarations of repentance are not also seeking out individuals they believe they have wronged? I believe there is a lot of repenting, forgiving and reconciliation going on that is not posted on Factnet.

louise_connolly (louise_connolly)

12-16-2005, 04:01 AM

I just reread the Dan repentance and the other letter penned by him as well as Paul Steven's letter. I know our powerful almighty God will lead them to live in the fruit of repentance if their wills allow it. Has God not done so for so many of us? I pray those two men and each of us receive complete healing from our cult experience.

I am also glad that Phil (Boss Martian) asked his two questions. I was thinking along those same lines. Let us remember, that membership in Carl's inner circle came with a complete compromise of ones integrity. It is not because they were special. It is because they were willing to do anything they were asked to do out of loyalty to Carl. I really don't understand how anyone who was a leader for decades in the TBS/GGWO cult could think it is all right to continue as a preacher. The good news is I live in the North and it seems most of these xleaders are either migrating South or staying in MD.

Thanks God for using factnet to expose GGWO as the cult it has always been. I wish all of you well in your endeavors but I won't be sitting in your pews while you preach or donating even one cent to your church or nonprofit.

isabella (isabella)

12-16-2005, 04:50 AM

Boss,

I believe Brian was addressing my post, not you, when he wrote,'... so much charity here.'

I have to say, I deserved the remark. It's true, I didn't show any charity towards D. Lewis.

Brian's reminder, (Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy) is right on the nose, I must say I have received my share and I wish nothing less for D.L.

Having spent a good deal of time in the cult and all of that time, being fooled by the best of them, I am skeptical, to say the least, about any of the pastors who saw fit to leave, only after the exposition and the subsequent power struggle.

As Roberta reminded us, they were all there when Betsy Doveydenas was unduly influenced and hoodwinked by wigboy and his entourage, but they did not protest. They learned, just like we learned, that they lied to her and took millions of dollars from her. If they had their way, they would have destroyed her and her family, just to get the money. And Betsy is just one example. Thank God she had the courage to expose them by taking them into court.

What did the little men do? They followed him to Baltimore, flush with the cash they took from her and purchased their houses and their cars. They knew, but they never said a word. They never told the people, they never apologized to anyone. They simply changed the name and started the plunder all over again.

We know from the posts on here, that they continued to do same thing to those they collected in Baltimore (under the guise of leading them to Christ). Imagine, taking advantage of anyone who has a check coming in, the elderly, the mentally ill, young people, the poor... Imagine, destroying families, for the sole purpose of keeping one person in submission to them.

We know, because we learned the hard way, that they did not/do not care about the people.

I'm not being mean spirited. I believe they need to repent publicly and say exactly what they did and why they did it. They need to tell everyone why they are sorry now, but were not sorry then.

They need to warn the people who are still in there. That would be a good start.

Thanks,
Isabella

bosubey (bosubey)

12-16-2005, 05:55 AM

If Dan's repentance is real it only goes as far as what he's learned under Carl. "I've repented, God forgives me, therefore you can't touch me". It may take him several years to learn what true repentance really is. I should know. It took someone from the outside who knew my situation to call attention to where I had stepped out of line. Although I had been "out" for several years, I was still blind to what my sin was. Because I had been convinced that my actions where in fact a favor to God. When I finally saw the truth, I knew I was not capable of any service to God. I had to rebuild what had been lost. But the old foundation had to be completly destroyed. I could not even look for the good things I had learned at TBS. God had to start me over completely with a new foundation based on a correct view of His Word. Paul teaches us to try and test the spirits and to lay hands suddenly on no man. Time will tell if Dan's repentance is genuine. We can pray for and love him, but I for one won't trust anyone coming out of TBS/GGWO if they don't recant everything they learned under Carl.

dancer (dancer)

12-16-2005, 03:20 PM

As somebody who saw the workings of GGWO from the inside, emails, fights, arguments, etc if Dan Lewis writes what I have read, than frankly he deserves a lot of credit.

Praise God for what he is doing in these people's lives.

PS. BY the way people tried their best to use arguments that I had with Dr. Lewis to show something, to his credit he erred on the side of caution and love even in times he knew my theological beliefs and political beliefs were far from his. But as a fellow Baptist I have always appreciated him even when he was wrong.

sailorman (sailorman)

12-16-2005, 05:28 PM

I'm wondering if fringe readers (like me) can join in on the discussion. I was a member of the cult a long time ago, and at this point I look at postings here with detached interest. To the extent that newcomers can join the discussion, here goes.

This thread is very interesting to me. Dean Lewis has been a central character in the TBS/GGWO story for over 30 years. Dean and I crossed paths a number of times in the old days and he was a gracious individual to me. I don't have a personal axe to grind with respect to Dean Lewis.

I'm sure that there is quite a story behind Dean's decision to write the confession letter, and many stories behind the need to confess. The confession, while apparantly real, doesn't go far enough by a long shot.

I'm not talking about forgiveness here, but rather what any human being should be entitled to in such a circumstance. Propositional statements without story are meaningless to me. And I'm not talking about gossip either. Just tell me what you did, who you did it to, why, and so forth. Also, tell me about the cult network. What the true motives of the leaders were and are. The inner workings from a true leader/insider. Help to dismantle the walls. Help to set the captives free. Help to heal the brokenhearted.

No, I'm sorry, the propositional confession doesn't make it.

Whether or not such a story will be told doesn't change anything for me, but be real, only the story behind the proposition will cause change.

My opioion.

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

12-16-2005, 06:37 PM

Sailor, actually I agree with you. It would only make marginal sense to those of us who knew exactly what has happened in the last 3 years. To others it is just words without substantiation.

Nancy

lana (lana)

12-16-2005, 08:38 PM

I belive Dan Lewis has repented. I would like to see him admit he was a cult leader right along side of Carl. He should expose all he knows about it and thoes involved. Thats the real proof of his repentance!
No one can do it but him. Too many people are still enslaved. It would take great courage for him, he was greatly loved, and his words would have an impact. The TRUTH needs to be told, and let the chips fall where they may. God will take care of the results.

lmao (lmao)

12-16-2005, 11:06 PM

Sailor, Nancy, Lana,

It is obvious that you read the letter of repentance, but judging by your words, it appears you have not read Dan Lewis' open letter to GGWO linked above where he has begun to do just what you are talking about and has promised two more instalments.

And Lana, no one was ever "along side of Carl".

bosubey (bosubey)

12-16-2005, 11:25 PM

I do not dis-believe Dan has repented, but a general, tossed into the wind confession that lands on whomever it needs to land on is a bit shakey. We ask Christ for forgivness because the Holy Spirit convicts us of specific sins. If we are to be genuine it requires a certain reponse on our part. If I ask my wife for forgivness she asks, "for what". Then as much as it agonizes me to do so, I have to tell her why. If I give her some nebulous, evasive answer I'm still sleeping in the tub. And she knows I'm not being honest. I'm sure Dan will never be able to personally hunt down every single person who was decieved or hurt by him in some way or another. But there are certain individuals who need to hear from Dan personally. I heard from him, but only after I made the first contact. Maybe I could have given him more time but I've been waiting 30 years and have not been hiding. I'm not looking for money nor will I go to court, but if certain individuals are not sought out personally I will not jump on the 'Dan has repented bandwagon'. Sure, I know what it's like to be under Carl's spell, to be deceived, but I ended up having to come clean to my own family members and go to each one of them and ask forgiveness for not obeying God, and for being a stumbling block to them. I could not blame Carl for my own lack of wisom. Being deceived doesn't mean the Holy Spirit doesn't communicate with us. We just choose not to listen for whatever reason when He does speak to us. For those around Carl, being obedient may have meant to alienate oneself from the perks of being around Carl. Gosh. Who would want that. Forgivness does not eliminate consequences. God may throw our sin into the deepest sea, but we have set things in motion that will an effect that touches many. I can forgive Dan, and I do, but the circumstances in my life don't automatically change for the better when someone repents. King David's baby son died soon after birth. Two of his other sons became threats to overthrow his kingdom. All this after repentence. Yes, I do accept Dan's repentence. But how he responds to submitting himself to wise councel, not running from the conviction that will be coming his way, and avoiding the temptation to hang on to the "good" things that Carl taught, will go a long way in bringing Dan back to stablility. And it will take some time. So, yes, I will pray for him and seek to re-establish the freindship that I enjoyed with him more than 30 years ago.

lmao (lmao)

12-16-2005, 11:56 PM

Bosubey, you said you heard from him. What was that about? Was he open, genuine, sincere, etc? I am just curious as to how someone who read that letter along with the open letter to gg could conclude that his repentance letter was "a general, tossed into the wind confession that lands on whomever it needs to land on".

boss_martian (boss_martian)

12-17-2005, 02:14 AM

Well, I read them, lmao.

They same a little bit vague to me, as well.

This is a man that sat or stood on stage and clapped while Carl preached that "five men died" among a laundry list of lies and heresy. He stood by for thirty years and watched people openly worship a man.

"However, Dan Lewis has also taught many things about the Bible and the nature of God correctly - OFTEN without the subtle twists and rhetorical pulpiteering that his "boss" engaged in."

Brian, how does his teaching figure in with pastor worship? How much good did all that knowledge do him when he couldn't even discern that "five men died" is a damn lie? How much good did it do if he KNEW it was a lie and he went along with it?

For many years, in Tuskeegee, Alabama, a government "clinic" promised free syphillis treatment for poor black men. They were told they were getting the best of care. Instead, many were being given placebos so that the disease could be "researched". Many of these poor men died during the decades-long experiment. There were very many learned doctors and scientists that participated in this abuse.

Would you want one of these doctors practicing medicine on a loved one?

I'm still wondering if he plans to preach or still needs the money he asked for in his e-mail.

Oh, and hi, Isabella.

disenchanted (disenchanted)

12-17-2005, 02:26 AM

I'm so thankful Dr. Lewis wrote this letter and allowed it to be posted!

This past year or so has been so very difficult, and now I can see it's been my Heavenly Father starting the separation process in my life. My experiences along with the things I've seen and heard in our local church which is under a very respected pastor have made me angry, confused, sad, and just plain amazed! I have gone back and forth with these emotions, and daily had to give it all to God. Over, and over, and over again!

Dr. Lewis has addressed some of the very things that are currently happening here. I'm sorry to admit he has validated the things that have made me uncomfortable, but not been able to completely comprehend as really being true.

It's the attitude of "we're the good old boys" that bothers me the most.

During a recent Sunday morning service, our pastor mentioned 1 Timothy 5:23, and I heard him tell us to take a marker and cross this verse right out of our Bibles as it should not have been included. Then as I recall, during an evening service he was telling us a bit about Jack Hyles and laughingly told us there is no difference between deacons and demons!

These three recent "events" have made it very clear that I don't belong here. I do believe God's Word is inspired by the Holy Spirit (all of it), and therefore not to be added to or taken away from. The office of a deacon is God given, and to be respected. How then can a deacon be a demon?

These are not real questions, just my thoughts.

Thank you all for being so willing to share your experiences, heartaches, and conversations.

sailorman (sailorman)

12-17-2005, 04:12 AM

lmao

You are correct, I did not read the open letter when I wrote my earlier comments. My experiences with "the ministry" predate the events Dean refers to in his open letter. It would be interesting if he writes about earlier times in his future installments.

nonotone (nonotone)

12-17-2005, 12:52 PM

Fact #1: Jack Hyles was a "spiritual terrorist" who based salvation on a human proposition (the myth of "absolute free will").

Fact #2: Jack Hyles lived in "secret" adultery with his Secretary (Jennie Nischik - a woman married to one of Jack's "best friends") for something like 15 years. Hyles "brokered" a divorce for the Nischiks and is reported to have offered his wife to Mr. Nischik "in trade" for Jennie.

Fact #3: Hyles was a bombastic, arrogant, self-aggrandizing tyrant who ignored and even mocked historical Protestant Christian Orthodoxy in order to establish his own cultic brand of Pre-millennial, Pre-trib, anabaptist sophistry.

Fact #4: Carl periodically appealed to Hyles as "an authority" in both scholarship and as a ministry leadership role model.

Brian Bowman
John 3:21

sofree (sofree)

12-17-2005, 01:02 PM

Sickening

lmao (lmao)

12-17-2005, 02:05 PM

If you google "Jack Hyles", you will read about many other corrupt beliefs and practices also.

What I find interesting is that since his church many times bigger and around for so much longer, there is so little written about it from his "victims" as well as other churches who share the name Baptist. There is only one thread on Factnet with about 50 or so posts.

Forgive me if I seem a little too sceptical of these charges, but where is the trail of wounded souls?

nonotone (nonotone)

12-17-2005, 02:16 PM

... not sure about that. Because Hyles was part of a larger right-wing Bible-Baptist community, perphaps he was (is) considered more "normal" than Carl and crew. Hyles was also much more of "an institution" than CHS/TBS/GGWO - he built a huge church was a thriving Bus Ministry and pretty much focused on that and on developing pastors for several smaller "similar works" around the mid-west and south. Hyles stayed in one place (Hammond Indiana) instead of moving 3 or 4 times from state-to-state. As far as I know Hyles never lost a property by being convicted of bilking a donor through manipulation and religious coercion.

Also, Hyles was a KJV-only "banger" and was pretty much identified with your typical Baptistic, Legalistic, Dogmatic, In-your-face, preaching that is typical of that genre. I don't think Hyles got into all the "mixure of pop psychology, over-strained Hebrew/Greek stuff, etc. that Carl did.

Also, Carl stated that he did not like Hyles "ranting about the KJV".

lana (lana)

12-17-2005, 03:49 PM

Imao... I can't find Dan Lewis's other letters. Will they be posted here? Also, has there been any response from Baltimore, or Carl? I have several family members there.

aurora (aurora)

12-17-2005, 03:52 PM

I remember many years ago asking the branch pastor where I attended - during a teaching on covering, spiritual headship in the church and delegated autority- if you say Stevens is over you then who is Stevens accountable too? He told me that Hyles was one to whom Stevens looked to and then, years later, I remember the answer a MBCS graduate gave me was Stevens' covering was God Himself and no man.

Hey- why the heck do folks keep refering to Lewis as "Dean" and "Dr." when those titles are from a SHAM organization. Ridiculous.

louise_connolly (louise_connolly)

12-17-2005, 04:32 PM

Thanks Aurora, for asking a question I was thinking about Dan Lewis (the Dean and Dr reference). It just shows the power of mind control that GGWO had over us. It lasts many years after we think it is gone. Imagine, if you were a loyal leader for decades, a lot of mind cleaning by the Holy Spirit needs to be done.

hodeuon (hodeuon)

12-17-2005, 08:54 PM

Disenchanted,

I looked up 1 Timothy 5:23 to see what verse a GG pastor would say shouldn't be in the Bible. I had to laugh when it turned out to be the verse where Paul tells TImothy to drink a little wine for his stomach.

I checked the Greek, both critical text and majority text. The only variation I can find in this verse between different manuscripts is that some do not contain the word "your" before "stomach", which doesn't change the meaning at all.

It's considered poor scholarship to reject a verse of Scripture as "not original" without having even a single manuscript to stake your case on.

Hodeuon

mercyreigns (mercyreigns)

12-17-2005, 09:20 PM

I didn't say I didn't believe Dan repented. I just agreed with Sailor's position. To some it may seem surreal or just words. To many of us it is a breakthrough. That is all I meant with that post.

Perhaps more explicitly, Dan left his email for anyone who wanted to communicate with him directly. Sailor and others could do that.

Nancy Curra

cordell (cordell)

12-17-2005, 10:17 PM

Imagine, if you will, yourself carrying a feather pillow high atop the tallest building in your town on a very windy day. On the roof, you take out your pocketknife, cut open the pillow and shake out all the feathers which are blown hither and yon for miles and miles.

Now imagine trying to recover under penalty of death every last one of those feathers.

Those of us who were in any kind of leadership position in the 'cult' are like this one with the pillow. I often think of how badly I treated a close friend, Mark Bell when he left 'The Bible Speaks' in 1981. We had laughed, worked, eaten, worshipped, preached and wept together. He wrote me a letter telling me why he'd left and I berated him for it, explaining that, "This ministry is going throughout the world with the gospel and thousands of souls are being saved!"--you know the drill. I have never been able to ask his forgiveness. I have googled him, asked the Lutherans about him, asked others who knew him where he is--and I am left with thinking--"If only..."

Then there were those in England who gave up their college educations to go to Lenox at our behest, others sold homes to secure a building for the 'ministry'--I was in my twenties and I thought I was doing the work of God. I have hunted out some of these and asked their forgiveness.

My family suffered because I was a pitiful 'cult' dad and husband. I am very fortunate that my older kids still speak to me because of their experiences while I was in the 'ministry' while they were in their most formative years.

We need to remember that our common experience, for most of us--save for those lookers-on--is having been a part of this cult. We all had to make a way out.

Dan Lewis is out of GGWO for a little less than a year. Not long ago, I received an email from a former GGWO pastor telling me to lighten up, that I had been out for 18 years, they were only now having the lights go on for them.

I am not saying that we should take a 'neener, neener, neener--you can't touch me' view of repentance. If there is a need for restitution, and if one is capable of making it--then it should be made. Obviously, I stand by every single word I have said about former leaders moving on into other positions of leadership if gross sin is involved. Leaders, according to Scripture, need to be above reproach. If we have erred, we need to come under others and be made accountable.

By the way, concerning titles, my name is Jim and as far as I know, his name is Dan--regardless of how many letters are behind one's name.

It seems as though there will be maybe three groups of us--those who still hold to the 'neener, neener, neener--you can't touch me' view of repentance, those who will investigate and welcome true repentance, and finally those who would not be satisfied unless the whole lot of GGWO's present and former leaders were hanged in a public piazza with piano wire. If you want to be a part of this third group, knock yourself out--maybe you'll get your wish. My thinking is that you still wouldn't be happy. "Leave room for the wrath of God--and--Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

It may be a good time to remember Christ's parable--not well named the prodigal son--but better called the parable of the two bad sons and one good father. I don't want to be in either position as a son, but I am grateful at the Good Father's reception and the rejoicing the occurs in heaven when one sinner repents.

If there are those who desire to be cautious, fine. But at least investigate, and if you have a bone to pick, use the email address.

Oftentimes, because we know how powerful FN has been in the past in exposing the charade of GGWO, we tend to expect to be catered to--"Why don't they sign on here and explain themselves." Fair enough. You can feel that way. They can also choose not to respond, and damn the consequences.

We might find that if we are active both on and offline--challenging and welcoming--offering fair criticism and help at the same time--we get better results.

(Message edited by cordell on December 17, 2005)

bosubey (bosubey)

12-17-2005, 11:22 PM

Imao, Cordell
I had my bone to pick. My wife and I have both written to and have had replies from Dan. I do believe Dan has repented. And I do realize that after hanging with Carl Stevens for 30 plus years, he has limited language with which to express himself. So it may take some time for his humility to be taken seriously. Until he can break away from Carlspeak, his words my not be convincing because it sounds so much like Carl. But despite my harshness I am giving him the benifit of the doubt for now. To be honest, my flesh bristles at the prospect of the thought, but I do know what the Word says. Because my wife and I are active in restoration/reconciliation ministries (we all should be reguardless), we do pray for the restoration of fellowship with Dan. We did have good fellowship at one time. One that I enjoyed. I would like to see that happen again.

sailorman (sailorman)

12-18-2005, 12:11 AM

I haven't been involved TBS/GGWO for quite a long time. Dean's departure from GGWO presents an opportunity for healing for many by simply providing information from the inner circle. For instance, did he witness, first hand, Kathy Hill being ordered to shadow Eliz. Dovydenas? Major event testimony. While I understand the feather metaphor, it doesn't seem necessary to me to go to that level of detail. We can all thing of the major events over the years. Dean was actually there in the center of things. Clearing things up would be most helpful in many ways. You know, there are still many folks living under the GGWO system, even (possibly especially) in branch ministries that have separated. The philosophy remains the same out there in the hinderlands.

BTW, I mean no disrespect to those who smart at Daen, Dr., etc. Dean just seems like the right name to me, given the length of time Dan hailed under that moniker.

Peace to all.

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-18-2005, 01:41 AM

Very well said, Jim F. I appreciate that I have heard from many folks that have left how you have been a true friend to them, going out of your way to love and extend mercy. I loved what you said about the "two bad sons and one good father". That parable speaks so amazingly to all of us.

Sailorman, I also will always call him Dean.

Jim, do you know whatever happened to Mark Bell? Does anyone know where he is?

Perhaps we can get all these old friends out to the next reunion. Stevie Clement and his wife wanted to attend this year's but they were moving that day and couldn't. Stevie and Mark... do you all post in here? If you do, please email me.

gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)

12-18-2005, 02:20 AM

HI ALL,

JUST HIT THE WRONG BUTTON AND DELETED EVERYTHING. FIRST I WANT TO SAY THAT REPETANCE IS A GIFT OF GOD IN THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST. DAN LEWIS HAS EXPRESSED TO MANY THAT HE HAS RECEIVED SUCH A GIFT. FOR ANY OF US TO SAY THAT HE HAS OR HASN'T, MEANS THAT MAYBE WE KNOW MORE THAN THE LORD DOES. ONE MISTAKE I DON'T WANT TO MAKE IS TO PRESUME WHERE THE LORD HAS DAN IN HIS WALK WITH THE LORD. A FEW THANGS MUST BE SAID IN CONJUNCTION WITH SAID REPENTANCE. WE ARE NOT ASSUME ANYTHING. HE HAS SAID THAT HE HAS REPENTED AND SO WE HAVE NOTHING TO DO, BUT PRAY HE IS BEING TRUTHFUL. NOW, WE ALL KNOW THAT A TREE IS KNOWN BY IT'S FRUIT; IS IT NOT? NOW THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO MY LONG DECEASED DAD SAYS THIS. " TALK IS CHEAP, ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS." KIND OF LIKE THE UNABRIDGED VERSION OF THE TREE DEAL. EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT TO THEIR OWN OPINION. WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE SKEPTICAL OR NOT IS UP TO THEM. WHAT I NEVER, EVER, EVER WANT TO DO IS MAKE A JUDGEMENT CALL ON SOMEONE ELSES WALK BEFORE GIVING THEM A GIANT CHANCE TO PROVE THEMSELVES. NOT TO ME EITHER, THEY OWE ME NOTHING, BUT THE LORD EVERYTHING. THE LORD IS PERFECTING THAT WHICH CONCERNS ALL OF US, JUST NOT EVERYONE AT THE SAME PLACE OR AT THE SAME SPEED. I WILL BECAUSE OF GRACE THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME, TAKE DAN AT HIS WORD. THIS PROCESS OF REPENTANCE TAKES TIME. IT IS PROGRESSIVE AND IT MIGHT BE SOMETIME BEFORE WE SEE THE FRUIT OF THAT REPENTANCE. BUT THAT MY FRIENDS IS BETWEEN GOD AND DAN. ALL WE CAN DO IS PRAY, WATCH AND WAIT AND LAST BUT CERTAINLY NOT LEAST, TRUST GOD!

PHIL IS WAS SO GOOD TO HEAR FROM YOU BRO!
SAILOR AND DISENCHANTED WELCOME TO FACTNET.
I AM/ GONE TO PA/ AKA TOM

boss_martian (boss_martian)

12-18-2005, 02:50 AM

I have used the e-mail address provided by Mr. Lewis, but I have recieved no reply. I have been very frank and candid. I asked if he is going to continue to preach and if he is still asking for the money for the reasons outlined to me in an unsolicited e-mail. Perhaps the house trailer he is forced to live in does not have internet access and he is unable to get to a computer.

Dan Lewis, from what I can gather, has one of the finest Biblical educations money can buy. Yet he's either too lacking in discernment or too corrupt to apply anything he's learned. I have read on FACTNET that instead of living in a house trailer, as outlined in his touching and heartbreaking letter, he is living in a condominium that he purchased.

I have been told (more than once) that I can't find my •••, spiritually or doctrinally, at high noon with a flashlight, but that whole housetrailer story seems like a little something we ignorant heathens call a "lie". It means that someone is not telling the truth. This lie was used in an attempt to raise money for Mr. Lewis. We heathens call that "stealing". It means taking something that doesn't belong to you. This happened in August, which wasn't very long ago.

Why can't Mr. Lewis or one of his many good buddies on this thread answer these questions? I would imagine that if what has been put forth here on FACTNET concerning Mr. Lewis' housetrailer is true, it won't present him the best light. It might be "unpleasant" and "uncomfortable" to talk about (sorry to use these strange words). If Mr. Lewis is under someone's "covering" will they speak up and explain how he has instantly rebounded?

This guy was one of the ring leaders, not some guy sitting on the sidelines. I don't desire to see Mr. Lewis strung up with piano wire. I am HIGHLY interested in hearing the truth.

boss_martian (boss_martian)

12-18-2005, 03:19 AM

Good to hear from you, too, Tom.

nonotone (nonotone)

12-18-2005, 07:17 AM

Phil,

It's my understanding that Dan and Kathy Lewis did live in the house trailer of a relative when they first moved to Flordia but now live an Condo of some type. FWIW, there are Condos in Florida and "then there are Condos in Florida". By this I mean that it sould not automatically be assumed that Dan is living in complete luxury with an ocean view. While I don't know the extent of his present housing situation, we cannot assume that it's much more than a simple apartment that he and his wife have purchased (hence the name "condo").

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-18-2005, 12:26 PM

Boss, being in the same city, I know for a fact that Dean and Kathy did live in some kind of trailer that belonged to a family member for some time until they were able to get their own home. So really, it is not a lie. Second, as I tried to bring out at the time of his request for funds to continue his ministry, the letter did not say he was still living in a trailer, just that he did when he first came down, which was true.

Hope this answers some of your questions. Love ya bro.

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-18-2005, 12:29 PM

Also, I would ask that everyone put Kathy on their personal prayer lists. Kathy has always had a heart ailment. Recently she had surgery and I would just ask you all to keep her in your prayers, that her heart would be healed. I don't know if she is in "danger", but she was always so frail to begin with, and I am sure all this has been a little straining on it. She is a lovely sister, and my hope is that she is with us and Dean for a long while coming.

Thanks to you all!!!

boss_martian (boss_martian)

12-18-2005, 05:05 PM

Thanks, BJ.

Is he going to continue to preach?

david_munson (david_munson)

12-18-2005, 05:09 PM

Cordell,
It's funny you mention Mark Bell.I have been trying to locate him for a couple of years now.I remember having house meetings with him in Sudbury Mass., so many years ago.
I always did like him and have missed being able to talk with him.I'm sure the Lord has him in a good place in his life.
If you ever get in contact with him,let me know so I can email him.

God bless you all to pieces,
Dave

}

louise_connolly (louise_connolly)

12-18-2005, 05:41 PM

Jim Faucett your Post on Saturday, December 17, 2005 at 4:17 pm was excellent. You actually shared some personal testimony without the grand ego telling us how much you know about the Bible and we better agree or be ready for some serious insults. Yes, there is hope for us all. I am happy for you that you enjoy a relationship with your adult children today. It shows us all that there is forgiveness and restoration.

I have been following the Discuss GGWO discussion. It shows the power of God that these x-cult leaders seem to truly have repented. My heart goes out to folks like the Lewis's and Paul Stevens but I have great difficulty thinking it is all right for them to be Christian leaders. They were leaders in a cult that used evangelical Christianity to take advantage of people. How is it possible to leave the cult and all of sudden be a healthy Christian leader? I have no desire to see any of these xleaders hung but I do think they need to go get a job like the rest of us rather than find new ways to make a living using evangelical Christianity.

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-18-2005, 07:28 PM

Just came from church a while ago, and I stopped in Tim Kelley's church to give Dean and Kathy big hugs and love. However, he wasn't there. He goes out ministering in a trailer park with another brother on Sunday mornings. Boss, to answer you question, I don't know what they do there, but I do hope he is preaching and loving and doing whatever he can to bless those folks.

While I thought God was prompting me to see Dean and Kathy, instead I talked to one of the most lovely men that Mike and I have known for years, and who most of you know. He and his wife and family left Baltimore in the last year. He very sweetly said his wife and family are having a very hard time adjusting after having been in the ministry for over 20 years.

I told him I would really pray for them. Most of you know them, I don't feel led to say their names, but as we all struggled through such hard times when we left that ministry, I think much prayer for these lovely folks, who are going through the confusion, loss, heartache, anger, sadness that we all went through.

I told him they will make it, and be so much healthier because of being taken out of that ministry. Let's all keep all the newly "outed" folks deep in our prayers this CHRISTMAS season.

Thanks!!!

karen (karen)

12-18-2005, 08:27 PM

Jim,

Really enjoyed reading your post. Thanks for being so honest and approachable.

aurora (aurora)

12-18-2005, 11:29 PM

Louise-
I Soooo agree with you. It should be a LIFE CHANGING thing to leave GGWO. I still say these guys must need couseling or at least, like you say, a new line of work at least for a season.

Call me cynical, but I remain skeptical of, particularly, Lewis' "repentance"...

sidethorn (sidethorn)

12-19-2005, 01:02 PM

As for Dan Lewis repenting, I want to believe that he truly repented and would give him the benefit of the doubt to a certain point. However Dan now needs to prove his repentance with his actions. He really should consider taking a sabbatical from ministry to reflect, unlearn false teachings and learn the truth for himself. Dan also needs to seek out those he hurt over the years to repair their reputations and lives. He should go to the people he spread gossip and slander about others to and publicly renounce everything he said and fess up to the deception. Let Dan take the initiative and lets see how real his repentance really is.

nonotone (nonotone)

12-19-2005, 01:30 PM

... but in the mean time if Dan is moved to love-up and share the Gospel with folks in a trailer park in Florida then let's bid him God speed in so doing!

kupski (kupski)

12-19-2005, 03:56 PM

Haven't seen Dr.Lewis at the church in St.Pete lately. I believe that the first step in repentance is to confess, which he has done. I have not seen that from most of the others who have left that ministry. I have to commend him in doing what he has done so far.

sailorman (sailorman)

12-19-2005, 06:09 PM

I was hoping that someone could enlighten me on the issue of leaving the "ministry". Is moving from the Baltimore church or one of the officially affiliated GGWO churches to a formally affiliated but now disaffiliated church considered, in the Factnet discussion circle, to be leaving the "ministry"?

The reason I ask is because of kupski's reference to the St.Pete church.

cordell (cordell)

12-19-2005, 08:15 PM

At this point it looks as though half the damn "ministry" has left the ministry--the remaining half are busy listening to Tommy Boy's verbal brain farts and disconnects--"And today we're going forward and preaching from uhh...uhh...uhhh."

The phrase (sounded in an echo chamber)"Noooobody Home..." comes to mind.

cordell (cordell)

12-19-2005, 08:22 PM

P.S. I think Mark Bell was from Winterhaven in Florida. When I met him he had hair down to his butt and looked like a Lynyrd Skynyrd roadie. If any of you Florida folks have ways and means--Mark's dad went by the nickname "Spider" and they changed their name to Bell from some Greek name ending in -opadopapopoulis or something like it--guess back then opting for 'Bell' in the South was a good idea.

bjerwin (bjerwin)

12-20-2005, 11:13 AM

I hear through trustworthy sources that Dean's letter has really caused some stir in GGWO, and Love is seeing a lawyer. Could Love actually be that stupid?

rj_fernalld (rj_fernalld)

12-20-2005, 11:38 AM

John Love has always been that stupid.

sidethorn (sidethorn)

12-20-2005, 12:40 PM

Not only stupid, but dangerous too. At youth functions, I personally watched him brainwash many kids into worshipping himself and Carl Stevens and into the false teachings of GGWO. John's one of the biggest "evangelists" of Carl's brand of churchianity that I've ever seen.

david_munson (david_munson)

12-20-2005, 05:40 PM

I just wonder how hot the oven's going to get before they realize what's really going on concerning God's hand on the "ministry."

Is it 350 or 666?
Maybe I am a little sarcastic but they need to do some heart searching,repenting and confessing to set things on the true path.

Love ought to see more than a lawyer,he needs to see the Holy Spirit in a one on one session of life changing revelation.
-----
You bet Dan's letter is causing a stir.He's been an inner circle guy for soooo many years that it hurts them to see someone who knows come clean before the Living God.

It hurts them to think that he might actually reveal the Truth about the underhanded and devisive tactics that God hates.

All I can say to that is "we're praying for you,Dan."

Dave

}

sidethorn (sidethorn)

12-20-2005, 07:16 PM

The best thing Dan can do here is spill the beans on everything he's seen and knows from his GGWO days!!! CHS, Schaller, Love and the rest of them must be really scared of this happening. Somebody needs to spill out all the secrets out in the open!!!! This cult needs to be torn down, PERIOD! The carnage of people has to stop!! May God be with Dan and give him the courage do whats right and expose what he knows about GGWO! May God be with the GGWO leadership, convict them of sin, and open their eyes to the truth. I hope they truly repent before things really get painful for them and they surely will in time. They would save themselves so much trouble by simply repenting in this present time and seeking out those they hurt to repair their damaged lives and reputations.

kupski (kupski)

12-20-2005, 07:43 PM

I dont think it just stops in baltimore..................http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

if ya know what I mean. Learned behaviors are hard to be rid of.

sidethorn (sidethorn)

12-20-2005, 08:27 PM

You got that right!!!!!!

sailorman (sailorman)

12-20-2005, 09:57 PM

It was only a matter of time that someone in a high leadership position would see the light. I suppose that some folks at the top were deceived just like the rank and file. The leaders should have been able to see and act responsibly (and many did), but, obviously, some were not able to see clearly and hung in there.

It would appear that this is a time of opportunity. I can see Frodo entering the Crack of Doom holding on to the ring. Can he throw it in the fire and destroy Mordor? Will he hold onto the ring? Everything hangs in the balance. A little melodramatic, perhaps, but it is a picture of what my be going on. I, for one, hope the Dean chooses to throw the ring into the fire.

There is much to consider. Someone brought up possible legal action. Dean may indeed be worried about legal action, but not from GGWO. The real legal action could come from the deceived flock against him under some theory of liability that he might be responsible for. GGWO may be very worried about the same thing. Dovydenas times who knows what factor.

Lets hope and pray that Dean musters the courage to tell the whole story from the beginning, and without spin.

david_munson (david_munson)

12-21-2005, 01:09 AM

His action to do so,would be in his best interest as well as the interest of the body in general.

Many people would (over time) find some solace and comfort in knowing that some one like Dan,even though they partook of an office of "authority," did what needed to be done when it fell to him.

I think he has it in him to do the right thing.
I know we all have it in us to do the wrong thing.Why else do we receive so many chances from the Lord?
Every new day is a chance to walk in True Light.

I believe that Dan Lewis is being handed an opportunity to reveal the Christ that we know as saviour.
Maybe another chance to show real care for his fellow members of Christ's Body.

No one is above being decieved.
All of us are,at some times in our lives.That's what livin on this planet entails.It's a P-I-T-A at times.
We still have something to learn from every thing in our lives though,for certain.
Besides,,,,,,,,,,we're all messengers,,,,,,,,,
of some sort.

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

Dave

}

sidethorn (sidethorn)

12-21-2005, 12:47 PM

The best thing Dan can do now to care for his fellow members of the body of Christ is to turn the tables on the GGWO cult and publicly disclose everything he knows about the sin, false teaching and corruption within it. That would help more people see the truth so they can escape the cult. This might ultimately be enough to force GGWO's hand to immediately repent or close its doors. Time will tell.

bob_brinton (bob_brinton)

03-02-2006, 10:13 AM

bump. The repentance letter is posted here by Jeannie, the third post down.

countdown

04-20-2006, 06:52 PM

And Jehovah said to Noah, Go into the ark, thou and all thy house; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. 2 Of all clean beasts thou shalt take to thee by sevens, a male and its female; but of the beasts that are not clean two, a male and its female. 3 Also of the fowl of the heavens by sevens, male and female; to keep seed alive on the face of all the earth. 4 For in yet seven days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living being which I have made will I destroy from the ground. 5 And Noah did according to all that Jehovah had commanded him. 6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was on the earth. 7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. 8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowl, and of everything that creeps on the ground, 9 there came two and two unto Noah into the ark, male and female, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that same day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the pour of rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights. 13 On the same day went Noah, and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14 they, and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and all fowl after its kind -- every bird of every wing. 15 And they went to Noah, into the ark, two and two of all flesh, in which was the breath of life. 16 And they that came, came male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him. And Jehovah shut him in. 17 And the flood was forty days on the earth. And the waters increased, and bore up the ark; and it was lifted up above the earth. 18 And the waters prevailed and increased greatly on the earth; and the ark went on the face of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth; and all the high mountains that are under all the heavens were covered. 20 Fifteen cubits upward the waters prevailed; and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh that moved on the earth expired, fowl as well as cattle, and beasts, and all crawling things which crawl on the earth, and all mankind: 22 everything which had in its nostrils the breath of life, of all that was on the dry [land], died. 23 And every living being was destroyed that was on the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping things, and fowl of the heavens; and they were destroyed from the earth. And Noah alone remained, and what was with him in the ark. 24 And the waters prevailed on the earth a hundred and fifty days