Does anyone agree on Doctrine Please help

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Thread on Evangelism, much disagreement:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/2550.html?1092104765

Thread on William Law, in later posts people expresses disagreement with his doctrines:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/2745.html?1091556065

Martin L Thread, much disagreement:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/2075.html?1092105443

Another thread of doctrinal disagreement:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/4634.html?1102042418

Thread on Finney, disagreement and questions of the Holy Spirit in his life:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/4766.html?1103030458

The Gene Edwards controversy:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/5049.html?1103163028

More on the Gene Edwards doctrines:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/5033.html?1103627239

Graham, Schuller, Stevens slams and doctines:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/5131.html?1103494884

Amy Carmichael slammed:

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/5189.html?1103641409

And many many more.

<font color="ff0000"><font face="times new roman,times,roman"></font>My reason for starting this thread is to try to understand. No matter what man or woman of God is discussed there are always some who discredit them, say they're off or don't have the Holy Spirit.

My question is who is on? Who do I trust to teach me sound doctrine? I have heard unbelievable comments about men and women of God, people who loved and served the Lord with all their heart.

With all this controversy, all this disagreement, who knows more than who, no wonder Christians want to run away and stay alone with Jesus.

Any body out there have the answer? I would suppose someone would have something to say about Oswald Chambers, Andrew Murray, and so on.

These are Christians' whose lives have been a shining example for us and they never put God in a box.

So much confusion here in Factnet, so many voices with opinions on who has the right doctrine and who is led by the Spirit, It is staggering.

If you have anything to post that is helpful please post here.

Thank you very much and God bless.</font>

[chris (chris)]

Nancy,

Great post! I am also concerned over the evil spirit toward people on this board.

Mock- a verb- to treat with contempt or ridicule.

I believe that to mock someone is to live in a form of hatred toward them. It’s very nature is to destroy and its source is not from God, Who is Love. A mocking spirit is not the Holy Spirit but another spirit altogether. Even if we do not agree with a brother/sister or if we believe a person has done wrong, we as Christians, in order to mock them, have to take on another spirit… a mocking spirit, and allow that spirit to use us to do damage to another person. This is nothing short of evil.

1 John 2:9-11 Whoever says he is in the Light and hates his brother is in darkness even until now. Whoever loves his brother abides in the Light, and in It or in Him there is no occasion for stumbling or cause for error or sin. But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walking in the dark; he is straying and does not perceive or know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

1 John 3:15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding within him.

1 John 4:20-21 If anyone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God Whom he has not seen. And this command we have from Him, that he who loves God shall love his brother also.

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

Chris, I agree...but a lot of words are understandibly spoken out of wounds here. I just believe that in time hearts will change. Hey, I'm not hoping for a love- fest reunion with anyone , but I do want my heart to reveal GOD to all... and HE IS LOVE!
Nancy, you are beautiful.

[chris (chris)]

I believe that if we really look to the Holy Spirit to be our teacher, and He is, then He will lead and guide us into all Truth. I have read all those listed above in Nancy's post and many others whose doctrine is questioned. I have learned something from them all.

We need to remember that no one has it all. God in His wisdom has given us ALL a portion. We all have something from the Lord to share.

Many times I have read the bible and nothing has touched my spirit. But other times I have picked it up and the words seem to jump off the page. So, I believe that it is the same with each other. Since the Holy Spirit is our teacher, He illuminates to us what He would want to teach us at that moment. As believer priests, we do not need to submit to another's interpretation of the bible or their critique of another person outside of the Spirit.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Chris,

I agree with you. I think we need to look with spiritual eyes and Christ's heart of love. I am very grieved of late in the attacks on individuals here on the board. It does not help others, which is the point of the forum in the first place!

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"My question is who is on? Who do I trust to teach me sound doctrine? I have heard unbelievable comments about men and women of God, people who loved and served the Lord with all their heart.

With all this controversy, all this disagreement, who knows more than who, no wonder Christians want to run away and stay alone with Jesus.

Any body out there have the answer? I would suppose someone would have something to say about Oswald Chambers, Andrew Murray, and so on."

Nancy et al,

I think that these questions are what everyone asks. Everyone wants to know, everyone wants to understand and also know who to trust.

These are my thoughts on the matter:

Being a believer is more than listening to others and what others believe. Being a believer that God so loved YOU that he gave His only begotton Son for us personally as well as collectively, means that He is personal, and your walk with Him is personal as well.

We have come out from a cult where men led us to believe that all the answers are knowable right now. This perhaps is the most corrupted lie there is. God may have given us the Bible as an introduction to His heartbeat, but until we walk with Him, not everything the Bible says can be understood or applied personally.

In other words, I think it is NOT a walk of faith if we constantly need someone other than God and the Holy Spirit to lead us. Pastors are NOT the only source of your understanding, commentaries are NOT the only place to find the scripture explained, and church is an experience to be desired perhaps, but NOT the whole experience by any means.

Faith is something that was not encouraged at GGWO. We were taught that Carl knew and we rested in that. Then when we leave we become confused and wonder..."where do I rest now? Who can I believe? Who can I trust?" and it is unsettling to say the least.

God must be the object of your faith. We can be rested and still, knowing the He knows all. He is the only one who does. He is the center of the universe NOT this planet, NOT any church, NOT any man. God alone knows the end from the beginning, God alone knows our end, God alone seems content with our trusting Him. This is why I did not run to another church when we finally broke free. I had all the same questions you have posed here.

I discovered that once again I was looking outside my faith in God alone, and wanting to have a safety net. The best journey is keeping your eyes, heart and mind on Christ, not looking down to see exactly where your feet are in relationship to the highwire...and just following Him, and trusting him to lead you.

It's time to get out of the boat and walk on the water for those of us who have trusted too much upon the boat to keep us dry and safe. All the others who have gone before us and have written great commentaries are to be enjoyed and are meant to enhance your journey, but in the end, we journey one on one with Him, on the water, without a net, believing.

I am not saying not to go to another church, not at all. But remember that you have been in a cult where you were made dependent upon Carl. The dependence in that case was inappropriate. Leaning on Carl's arms is NOT the same as leaning on His everlasting arms as you step out of the safety of the boat in the midst of this storm and decide at long last to trust God alone.

He will lead you, protect you, guide you and it has been said he is a selfish God in that he wants you for himself. I often wonder if God grieved and missed our pure fellowship with him as we followed Carl.

Carl, Andrew Murray, Spurgeon, Calvin, the church, the doctrines of any camp are NOT God. He told Moses "I AM". He still is the only "I AM" to be followed. If we are desirous of a Godly life, follow Him and enjoy the portions of others past and present...but do not blindly believe anyone who is human. Determine to everyday to step outside the boat with your eyes on Him...this way drowning in confusion isn't possible.

This is a new way of loving God for those of us long in the cult teachings. This is the way that cuts out the undue influence of an inapporpriate pastor/middleman. Although the good pastors already know this and encourage this kind of journey with God, the bad pastors have taught us a way of believing that made us limp, made us falter, made us confused. Be free...let the voices of men no matter how godly and good be secondary to the voice that can heal with a whisper, the eyes of He who made the blind see again, the loving hands that will catch you and keep you safe when your humaness fails...

I didn't mean to write sso much, Nancy, but I believe these things with my whole heart. I believe it is a part of recovering the lost relationship with God we can have back since we have left GGWO.And it seemed like the best time to share it with you.

God's blessings
RJ

[jeannie (jeannie)]

I also believe the board enters into confusion when agendas and control issues rise above the common cause which is identifying what TBS/GG is and how to get others out and how expose it so others will never fall into their trap. The most important issue for me is how to help others recover from spiritual abuse. How to be so intuned with the Holy Spirit that we gain back territory robbed by an evil system and allow God to use each of us in an individual and powerful way.

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Everyone,
Dont' know if this helps but the quote is very appropriate:
"in essentials unity, non-essentials liberty, and in all things love".

Basically like this. On the essentials such as the diety of Christ, the virgin birth, conception by the Holy Spirit, etc we can unite. They are the things that seperate the kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of the cults basically. To deny the essentials means that a person doesn't have a correct understanding of the faith.

On non-essentials or anything not essential doctrine we can debate until we're blue in the face but at the end of the day still call each other brothers and sisters.

As for all things I thinks it's obvious. We do everything from faith expressing itself in love.

I have disagreements with my own pastor on some things, but they are non-essentials and we're both trying to come to a knowledge of those things together. We love each other dearly and hug and laugh about our discussions afterward.

Can those discussions be unfruitful? It can be with the wrong attitude and if it's to not build up the body. Can those discussions be fruitful? That is yes. We can learn by what others have already been through, or have studied, or are much further along in their walk.

Most problems arise from interpretation. Which as Hank Hanegraaf states is both and art and science. It is a science in that there are good rules (i.e. context) that apply. It is an art in that if you use the rules along with prayer and the Holy Spirit you begin to understand the scriptures.

But let's face it. Trying to answer every question on every doctrine in scripture will NOT happen in this life. But we still strive for it and grow and each person is at a different point. But we grow together as one body. As we begin to agree though we come as one mind.

Of course being in your church's situation where things have been distored, twisted, and every conceivable problem it's almost a regrasping of what is true or untrue. But I think people are coming along. They're asking tough questions, testing what other people say against scripture, and questioning their own motives and assumptions. It's going to take time.

I almost say that getting back to foundations would be helpful and some studying of biblical interpretation too. Not necesarily in a full sense as Yoda says "unlearn what you have learned". lol In a sense there have been things you have been taught that distort even your view of scriptures and the whole faith.

However the best thing is grabbing up those Bibles in prayer and listening to the Holy Spirit and "STUDY to show yourself approved unto God".

I don't dismiss using outside sources for some assistance in areas they might be familiar with. But as many have seen you get into using people of questionable reputation such as Watchman Nee and such you start veering off quickly.

God wants a PERSONAL relationship and experience Him personally in your life, and that is through the word, prayer, and walking by faith daily.

Okay, I blabbed enough. Hope my getting to bed late last night didn't detract from my making sense. lol

M or Michael

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Response to:

Chris - so right, no one has it all. This is why we MUST be like the Bereans, study and compare. While I believe there are deep revelations in the Word of God they never stray from the basic meaning, which God kept simple enough for a child to understand.

Jeannie - I too am concerned about attacks. Especially on those who are hurting an dwounded. It has been aptly said, "The Christian army is the only army that kills it's wounded." This ought not be. If someone is on this site trying to get answers/comfort/healing, be a comfort to them. Jesus said, "When you visited those in prison, when you gave a cup a cold water." Jesus IS still our only true example, we MUST do it His way.

And RJ - You have expressed yourself beautifully, and my heart and prayers go out to you.

To all I would say, I will not (never do) get his words exact, but please understand this is my "paraphrase quote," but in the )almost) word sof Detrich Bonhoffer, "In the essentials, steadfastness. In the non-essentails, liberty. But in all things, love."

God bless you

Ralph

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Amen to your last Jeannie!!!!

Ralph

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"In the essentials, steadfastness. In the non-essentails, liberty. But in all things, love."

Ralph, I had forgotten this by him. Thanks for posting it. It really says it all.

RJ

[jeannie (jeannie)]

We should repeat those profound words before we press the "send button!"

I must say since exiting GGWO I have grown in "steadfastness," enjoy the flow of the "love of God" in ALL things AND REVEL IN MY "LIBERTY" IN CHRIST!

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Bells_Joy, Let's ring those bells of yours because we are free at last.. Sweet Jesus, we are free at last!

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

I am on a Dietrich Bonhoeffer roll. But this quote should (MUST) be our motto on the healing road.

“The essence of optimism is that it takes no account of the present, but it is a source of inspiration, of vitality and hope where others have resigned; it enables a man to hold his head high, to claim the future for himself and not to abandon it to his enemy.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Do not allow any one to steal your optimism, by their actions past or present.

God bless you all,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

DING!

[minutus (minutus)]

Amen to the Bonhoeffer quote.

Disagreement is the surest sign that we are free from the Borg Collective. I would also be willing to bet that most of us who joined the Hive Mind as adults came from dysfunctional backgrounds where disagreement was either stifled or expressed as rage and/or abuse. As a result we are terrified of disagreement and unsure of how to express it constructively, so it often results in exaggerated outbursts. The medium of written communication also is difficult for many. How often have we seriously misunderstood each others' posts here? Quite a bit.

The good news is that we get better as we do this. We are becoming more accepting and edifying to each other even as we disagree, with a few exceptions. We are taking positive steps to help each other confront the Collective and have been quite unanimous in denouncing the latest cult "flirty-fisher."

You all deserve a hearty "well done." Keep up the good fight http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Amos 8:11 (ESV)
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord God,
"when I will send a famine on the land—
not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water,
but of hearing the words of the Lord.

While I would certainly agree with Mike and Ralph on the points they've made, particularly concerning the quote from Augustine, one of the problems with having been in a "ministry" like GGWO is the association of debate and polemic with hatred. This is how Carl Stevens viewed disagreement--if we disagreed with him we hated him, were against the ministry, and we were persecuting him. Is there a vestige of that spirit among us? Just because I disagree with you, and disagree with you vehemently does not mean I hate you. Some of you on this board, I am sure, have very vigorous disputes with your spouses and children--I bet there are times when you say things you wish you hadn't--but does the argument mean that you hate them? Does it mean that you are inherently hateful? I think not. There is hardly a person on this thread that has not been involved in a dispute with another on this board. I don't think you are hateful people.

On one of the threads, I had a very vigorous debate over the GGWO doctrine of "rebound" with Skip Wood. You will see that that doctrine as understood by GGWO is dangerous in that it enables bad behavior. I took the argument to the absurd, suggesting that he have another pastor who'd slept with his wife on Friday preach in his pulpit on Sunday--as long as this fellow had rebounded. Some might say that the exchange was particularly harsh on my part, and maybe it was. But I wonder what he would say if you asked Skip today if he feels exactly the same about that doctrine as he did then--and he knows for sure now that I have never hated him.

Long ago, the World Council of Churches decided to aim at sacramental rather than doctrinal unity, saying that doctrine divides and that this division was not good. We are however called to unity, rather than diversity in doctrine:

Ephes. 4:3-6 (ESV)
eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— [5] one Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

1 Cor. 1:10 (ESV)
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

These might seem to be impossible suggestions at the best of times but they are even more unattainable when there is a famine of hearing the word of God--there is a famine of hearing what the Spirit says to the churches.

What is so all fired important about doctrine anyway? Why should anyone study, why should we read? Why should we pay any attention to 2000 years of church history?

Because without the DOCTRINE contained in the SCRIPTURES you can not know the PERSON of Christ and grow in him. Bible doctrine will always lead us to know the person of Jesus Christ. "Bible doctrine" is a phrase that gets the same reaction from a GGWO "exodee" as showing a cross to Dracula--"hisssss." But there were and are warnings contained in scripture:
2 Peter 2:1 (ESV)
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Do you see what Peter says false teaching does? What he calls heresies? No one would disagree amongst the exodees that Carl Stevens's heresies are destructive and even abusive. So why race to embrace yet another? False teaching causes people to lose sight of the Master who bought them and there is not a greater tragedy in the whole world than that.

Would you shout loudly, and even in an angry voice to stop your little child from running into a busy street? Would you warn your neighbor about joining or visiting GGWO? Would you argue with them? Is it possible that your anger might show a little--or maybe even a lot?

I got particularly angry with Martin L. for this very reason--his doctrine takes people away from knowing the day to day forgiveness available in an ongoing walk of holiness in the Lord Jesus. His doctrine takes people away from the Master. Martin claimed that no one in 2000 years had got it right until he came along--but his was a Christless teaching for those involved in close contact with the 'neighbors' they are commanded to love.

Right now we have a variety of ideas and solutions being put forward on factnet as alternatives to GGWO. Some are going to Calvary chapel, some are sitting at home watching TV preachers and reading books, some are attempting to be reaffirmed in their doubt and unbelief, others have travelled towards even more traditional churches, some have gone to more charismatic churches, some want to reinvent the church. During this time of realignment and seeking a new way forward for ourselves and our families we ought to be seeking out good "BIBLE DOCTRINE" (hissss) that leads us to the Master. Here's Paul's admonition to the Ephesian elders upon leaving them:
Acts 20:28-32 (ESV)
Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. [29] I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; [30] and from among your own selves will arise <u>men speaking twisted things</u>, to draw away the disciples after them. [31] Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears. [32] And now I commend you to God and to the <u>word</u> of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

The Holy Spirit who made the elders overseers of the church of God also led Paul to commend them to the word of his grace. That word builds up and gives us an inheritance. The inheritance is not more Bema toys but it is Christ Jesus himself. Without the WORD of his grace there is no inheritance in Christ. Fierce wolves and men from our own ranks speaking twisted things will attempt to keep us from that inheritance. That inheritance is, by the way, only comprehended in one manner:

Ephes. 1:18 (ESV)
having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints...

Long, long ago there was an episode of the "Twilight Zone" that starred comedian Shelly Berman as a nasty little man who hated people and wished every one in the world could be more like him. He woke up the next day to find that it was as he had wished--there was an entire world full of nasty little people (Berman played each part perfectly) just like him--and he went nuts. In America we tend to move around in bubbles, even in our Christian life we'd prefer to pay particular emphasis on the more "personal and private" aspect of our relationship with Christ. Loving our neighbors is sometimes a very messy business, especially when there are wolves about who will not spare the flock. Friendships between believers can be described as "iron sharpening iron." That is a particularly noisy and abrasive metaphor is it not?

We are where we are today in the church of God because of arguments over doctrine--even the essentials. Without Athanasius standing firm on Scripture concerning the doctrine of the Trinity there would have been an even greater disaster through the cancer of Arianism. Without Luther we would not have the understanding of the freedom in Christ many of you are rejoicing in nor would we understand gospel justification. Look at this verse and grasp the language:

Acts 15:2 (ESV)
And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

And Peter (him of being withstood to the face by Paul because he was to be blamed) rose to speak at this council only after "there had been much debate."

Let's not back down from vigorous discussion on doctrine. And please, let's not die as emaciated Christians because of a famine of hearing the word of God.

[minutus (minutus)]

I was just reading about St. Nicholas punching out Arius. That blows some concepts!

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Well said Jim,

And isn't it interesting that Peter said in his writings that Paul was right to with-stand him, AND, they remained friends!

Isn't it also interesting that Paul and Barnabas also remained friends. And that later Paul asked that John Mark, the very nephew that had been their point of contention, be sent to Paul because of his great value to God's work?

We MUST act civil towards one another, love, and remain friends. My God, if I ever found a friend that I agreed with everything on it would scare me! No molds to fit into here, thank you very much. Diversity makes folks interesting AND helps to keep us all in line with God, not man.

I love your postings Jim,

Ralph

[lee (lee)]

An old friend called us last night, back from a missions trip in So America. He'd been thinking about someone and decided to google him. He found him in a part of one of the threads on FACTNet. He scrolled up and down and saw a familiar name, then way to the top and discovered that is was called a thread and then he discovered there were 100's of threads and it was about the ministry he was once in! He then read and read and read, then he called us! He was astonished at the various temperaments, arguments, discussions and beliefs. I heard Jack say to him, that FACTNet is much about life.....real life, everything is here. Profanity, connections, love, arguements, grief, information etc.

When we lived in the bubbleworld of TBS/GGWO we didn't have to connect too much with the real world. Many have found how difficult it can be to make your way back into the world. I have enjoyed living in the world cause I know I am not of it. Living in the real world shows me a very real God. Even though it can be tough out here. I have to rub up against people that don't look like me or talk like me or think like me. I get tired of them sometimes. Yet, isn't this where I was really called to be? What a better place to be but the world and all its stuff, than to be looking and longing for another bubbleworld.

I have read the doctrinal disputes from the beginning and participated in some spirited discussions. It's made me think more clearly about what I believe and its shown me where I'm at. I don't think I would've seen things as I do now, unless I came to FACTNet and actually participated. I wouldn't have enjoyed connecting with Christians that, in my estimation are really living the Christian life!

I like what you've said Jim, sometimes you make my head spin and sometimes I don't get it at all, but I have to say, that in my experience, I've met and talked to alot of Christians that I think are insipid and boring. That, you are not! I think God is happy with whats going on here because its HOT here, and he likes HOT.

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

thank you all for responding. "in essentials unity, non-essentials liberty, and in all things love".

This quote really does say it all and I understand more than I did before. It is true I lived in that "bubble" so long. I am so glad it burst.

Back to basics and simplicity, the Bible, Holy Spirit and me.

God bless all of you and thank you for your friendships. The fellowship here is incredible and the unity is astounding.

Real people sharing, appologizing, loving forgiving, losing it, resting, etc. Far more fellowship than I ever experienced in the plasticity of GG.

Plasticity- plastic like http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

(Message edited by mercyreigns on December 22, 2004)

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Nancy,

Good word! Plasticity. I love it.

Have a Merry Christmas.

And please EMail me, I want to find out how that "other thing" you aske me to pray about is going.

God bless you,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

my email is inmercyrejoice@hotmail.com and that "other thing" is going greathttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif been a year this month. thank you so much for asking. feel free to email me anytime.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

I agree too with what Chris, Jeannie and RJ posted. We need to depend solely on the Holy Spirit for direction. It isn't the word of any man/woman writer's experience, it's the words of the Holy Spirit that we are to follow.

Maria

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

"We need to depend solely on the Holy Spirit for direction."

Excuse me...that is NOT what I meant. Let me clarify:

"Carl, Andrew Murray, Spurgeon, Calvin, the church, the doctrines of any camp are NOT God. He told Moses "I AM". He still is the only "I AM" to be followed. If we are desirous of a Godly life, follow Him and enjoy the portions of others past and present...but do not blindly believe anyone who is human. Determine to everyday to step outside the boat with your eyes on Him...this way drowning in confusion isn't possible."

A good teacher (pastor) is one who encourages your study, encourages your ability to think with God, encourages fellowship with other believers, encourages your questions, and encourages your individual walk with God and your ability as His child to hear from Him.

Good pastors and good churches exist and I am not in favor of everyone leaving churches to go it alone. Some do, but it isn't easy. I say that because I do not find it pleasant to be without a church family all the time.

There was a time when I would not have said this. Dave Drago showed me what a real, healthy, pastor can be. I do not mean to embarass him, but I have not had the opportunity in my area to know a pastor like him. Had I known one I might have gone to his church and found a rich blessing.

One must be careful to let ourselves NOT make a kneejerk reaction to a bad experience. It is important I believe to take whatever time is necessary to regain some equilibrium after being in a cult, but I have finally come to see that there are good churches with balnced preaching both conservative and liberal out there...and when your spirit is finsiheed with anger and the pain of betrayal, perhaps God will lead you to another local church. But let Him lead, not your bruised spirit.

[veritas (veritas)]

Nancy, just a thought from "a shining example" of a life that let God out of the box.

"There is a sharp contrast between the Spirit and the letter, between what happens within the soul and what is external to it. The early stage of religion is characterized by externals, and only after long processes of tutorship and discipline does the soul learn how to live by the Seed of Life and Light of truth within it. The early stage is legalistic, during which the person is 'hedged about' with promises and threats, walled in with 'laws and ordinances', living in a perpetual alarm of fears, shut up rules, retirements and forms...The true way of progress is to move up from fear and law to love and freedom, and from outward rules to the discovery of a central Light of God, a Heavenly Image, in the deeps of one's own spirit.

Real knowledge comes when the Day Star rises in the heart. We pass from notions and ideas to an inward power and bubbling joy. The period of law and letter is a 'baby stage' when we see truth as bleary-eyed beholders. Legal religion compared with the religion of the Spirit is like a spark struck from flint at midnight compared with the sun; it is like drawing the waters of Grace a bucketful at a time when we might have the Spirit gushing as a living and perpetual fountain. But God is so good that He lets us spell His name with the alphabet until we learn to know His own Voice. The written word cries in our ears that God is Love; but above these voices there is a Principle within our own souls by which He propagates His Life in us and he who, in this love-way, has become a son knows God as Abba-Father.

We pray now with power, when this new Life of the Spirit has come into us and we pour our spirits out in self-forgetfulness, as a River pours itself into the sea, where it loses its own name and is known only as the waters of the Sea."

Hope it helps. Have a very Merry Christmas.

Veritas

[anon_for_ever (anon_for_ever)]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1887603034/002-0850425-9645650?v=glance

I don't know if Dietmar Scherf is in or out, but reading 61 Amazon-reviews of his book about depression was really amusing.

Obviously ggwo people gave him 5 stars while others gave just one. What do you think?

[timeless (timeless)]

RJ,
The following post from you sounds like someone I know talking. You wouldn't happen to be Jacqi Gough would you? I highly respect her thoughts on the character of God and your post below is written the way she would speak. Could you give me a hint in who you are? I loved what you had shared. Truth spoken!

In Christ,
Timeless

Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 9:06 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"My question is who is on? Who do I trust to teach me sound doctrine? I have heard unbelievable comments about men and women of God, people who loved and served the Lord with all their heart.

With all this controversy, all this disagreement, who knows more than who, no wonder Christians want to run away and stay alone with Jesus.

Any body out there have the answer? I would suppose someone would have something to say about Oswald Chambers, Andrew Murray, and so on."

Nancy et al,

I think that these questions are what everyone asks. Everyone wants to know, everyone wants to understand and also know who to trust.

These are my thoughts on the matter:

Being a believer is more than listening to others and what others believe. Being a believer that God so loved YOU that he gave His only begotton Son for us personally as well as collectively, means that He is personal, and your walk with Him is personal as well.

We have come out from a cult where men led us to believe that all the answers are knowable right now. This perhaps is the most corrupted lie there is. God may have given us the Bible as an introduction to His heartbeat, but until we walk with Him, not everything the Bible says can be understood or applied personally.

In other words, I think it is NOT a walk of faith if we constantly need someone other than God and the Holy Spirit to lead us. Pastors are NOT the only source of your understanding, commentaries are NOT the only place to find the scripture explained, and church is an experience to be desired perhaps, but NOT the whole experience by any means.

Faith is something that was not encouraged at GGWO. We were taught that Carl knew and we rested in that. Then when we leave we become confused and wonder..."where do I rest now? Who can I believe? Who can I trust?" and it is unsettling to say the least.

God must be the object of your faith. We can be rested and still, knowing the He knows all. He is the only one who does. He is the center of the universe NOT this planet, NOT any church, NOT any man. God alone knows the end from the beginning, God alone knows our end, God alone seems content with our trusting Him. This is why I did not run to another church when we finally broke free. I had all the same questions you have posed here.

I discovered that once again I was looking outside my faith in God alone, and wanting to have a safety net. The best journey is keeping your eyes, heart and mind on Christ, not looking down to see exactly where your feet are in relationship to the highwire...and just following Him, and trusting him to lead you.

It's time to get out of the boat and walk on the water for those of us who have trusted too much upon the boat to keep us dry and safe. All the others who have gone before us and have written great commentaries are to be enjoyed and are meant to enhance your journey, but in the end, we journey one on one with Him, on the water, without a net, believing.

I am not saying not to go to another church, not at all. But remember that you have been in a cult where you were made dependent upon Carl. The dependence in that case was inappropriate. Leaning on Carl's arms is NOT the same as leaning on His everlasting arms as you step out of the safety of the boat in the midst of this storm and decide at long last to trust God alone.

He will lead you, protect you, guide you and it has been said he is a selfish God in that he wants you for himself. I often wonder if God grieved and missed our pure fellowship with him as we followed Carl.

Carl, Andrew Murray, Spurgeon, Calvin, the church, the doctrines of any camp are NOT God. He told Moses "I AM". He still is the only "I AM" to be followed. If we are desirous of a Godly life, follow Him and enjoy the portions of others past and present...but do not blindly believe anyone who is human. Determine to everyday to step outside the boat with your eyes on Him...this way drowning in confusion isn't possible.

This is a new way of loving God for those of us long in the cult teachings. This is the way that cuts out the undue influence of an inapporpriate pastor/middleman. Although the good pastors already know this and encourage this kind of journey with God, the bad pastors have taught us a way of believing that made us limp, made us falter, made us confused. Be free...let the voices of men no matter how godly and good be secondary to the voice that can heal with a whisper, the eyes of He who made the blind see again, the loving hands that will catch you and keep you safe when your humaness fails...

I didn't mean to write sso much, Nancy, but I believe these things with my whole heart. I believe it is a part of recovering the lost relationship with God we can have back since we have left GGWO.And it seemed like the best time to share it with you.

God's blessings
RJ

[yahshua (yahshua)]

John 10:7 ¶ Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
John 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
John 10:11 ¶ “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.
John 10:13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
John 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
John 10:17 ¶ “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
John 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
John 10:19 ¶ Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings.
John 10:20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 ¶ Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
John 10:22 ¶ Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.
John 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.
John 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
John 10:25 ¶ Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

For those of you who are weary of the division and strife and alienation amoung those who falsely claim my name; there are those who are my true servants, who I am making one, just as I and my Father are one; the keep my commands, and I am revealing Myself to them (John14:21) You can see my Word, rightly divided, where there are those who have one heart, and one way, at www.TheLitmusTest.org (http://www.TheLitmusTest.org)

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

RJ is not Jacqi. But she is a dear woman of God.

Nancy Curra

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

and yet another cult recruiter enters the room. Yashuwa shu as RJ would say.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

It's just a matter of the name being changed to protect the guilty. The idea is if you lie long enough and loudly enough, people will eventually begin to believe you. It worked for Hitler. It worked for the Bolsheviks. Liar, liar, house on fire.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Nancy,
I'm so glad that you started this thread. I hadn't seen it in awhile it had dropped down from people not posting on here anymore.

1 John 4:20-21 If anyone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God Whom he has not seen. And this command we have from Him, that he who loves God shall love his brother also.

That was one of the verses the Holy Spirit quickened me with this afternoon as I was perusing the forum. Chris posted it above in the post she made in regards to those with mocking spirits.

It saddens me that people tear one another's doctrinal beliefs apart when they don't gel with our own. I admit I was wrong for jumping the gun in regards to Amy Carmichael. Each one of us does the best we can to live our lives before the Lord.

You were right in saying that there are so many doctines here on Factnet that it gets confusing.
I think what people are missing is the leading of the Holy Spirit. I said it before in my post and nobody "caught on." Without the Holy Spirit leading and guiding us into all truth where would be?

Every day purposing to live our lives led by Him would have such a revolutionary/radical change in the hearts of so many. Truly there is far too much criticism of each other's beliefs. Its damaging and wounding people coming on here for help too. All they see is the backbiting, bickering...truly all of which is a mockery of the Holy Spirit that lives within us, if we let Him live there and have His way.

How else are we to be taught. What are we to believe? That God is true, and every man a liar. Literally. The Holy Spirit is right here, every day, waiting on us to reach out to Him, surrendering our lives to Him and letting Him lead us and guide us into all truth.

So we've had our "theology" shaken quite a bit due to our involvement with GGWO/TBS. What are we going to do about it? Scream forever on here which truly does no good in the end except for that venting we've all needed. I'm not being sarcastic or making fun of someone needing to vent on here as we've all had our share of it.
I'm asking everyone here to take a minute and think about a few things. Some of us had our doctrinal "foundations" blown sky high. We don't know what to believe, who to trust, what commentary is now "right." This is the time to rebuild our foundations. In the Lord, not in a man or what any man preaches unless he is preaching under the annointing of the Holy Spirit.

That complete total surrender and abandonment of all these "things" or "weights that beset us" we need to give them over to the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to form the image of Jesus Christ in us more and more each day. When we do that, when we allow the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us each day, it is then and there that we will have true peace. With ourselves, and with God.

Maria

[helenaofmass (helenaofmass)]

Beautiful Maria. You have such a lovely heart.
I am so inspired by you and your attitude. You and Nancy have such kind and loving hearts for the most part and it is must appreciated.
I think the steps you have taken to move toward a healing with your get togethers are such a beautiful gesture.

I was wondering if anyone knows how RJ is? I have been praying for her.

Peaceful Hearts,

Helena

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Nancy - what a great thread - I hadn't seen it until today. The discussions, disagreements, etc. are refreshing.

My $.02 worth is that you are right to question "who is on?" I assume it would logically lead to the question...what is true? Since it would follow that you are seeking truth from someone who is "on" - right?

How about this for a concept....seek truth everywhere...read, read, read...and not just those who tell you what "they" believe the Bible says...How about the ancients? Plato's Republic is incredible. How about Eastern thought? Thomas Merton was a Catholic Monk with incredible insights.

And no matter what anyone says, don't worry about "being led astray" -- just question everything, DECIDE what you believe to be true because YOU know it, not because anyone else tells you it is what you SHOULD believe. If you don't understand it or don't agree with something...just put that piece aside...it doesn't mean that the "whole" is wrong.

Also, I've found that something I might not get or might disagree with on one day, when I return to it at another time, I might have more understanding of it or might see something I missed the first time (I know that this even happens when I read scripture -- big time!) God didn't hoard the knowledge of His Universal Intelligence for right wing fundamental Christians...His scope has no bounds.

And do you know what I find to be wonderfully fascinating? It's that He gave us all the capacity to be still and listen and to hear Him with all of our senses - without someone else telling us what they think we should believe or should believe to be His voice. To know the truth as it's revealed in nature (and I'm not talking about those nuts who determine that they "know" that a disaster like the Tsunami is some sort of judgement of God on blah, blah, blah), to go back to the origins of the science of mathematics and find that it was esoteric in nature!!! Study Buddhism, Zen, the Upanishads --

It has been AMAZING to break down my preconceptions and realize how well my christian beliefs -- when I move them outside of dogma -- clasp hands with teachings that I would never allow myself to consider before leaving TBS. I used to think all else was evil and would corrupt me and turn me away from the true God -- I was so asleep!

So, I guess it's more like a buck and change, but thanks for the thread and thanks for letting me "speak."

HRH

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

HRH...woman, you ROCK!!!

It wasn't until after the fog was clear that I got the idea that learning everything would only enhance my faith, not confuse it. Beause it it could easily be confused...was it really faith at all, you know? I studied ancient Rome (a life long passion) the Greeks, the Hindus, Buddhists, Plato, Sartre, read all the classics I could find...and it was so much fun. Nothing changed other than God got so much bigger than my limited self could imagine. It was then I saw the universe as a sparkle in His eye, that same eye that cried for me in my pain and was a being who knew how to be my true father.

I truly believe the brains he equipped us with have been atrophied for so long that we need to exercise and learn to learn all over again.

Break down the walls of lies that Carl built in us, let God's light in and watch the dancers dance happily among the ruins of yesterday as they become the foundations for new generations who will rise aupward, ever upward and learn to dance also with God!!!

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

RJ - Consider yourself the recipient of a high-five and a hug for good measure. People need to find the path to follow for their own unique journey -- because it IS about the journey...not the destination. Before I get flamed...I don't think that Heaven (whatever you perceive that to be) is the end...I don't believe that there is an end to the eternal spark of life that is God in us...there will only be an end (IMHO) to the false personality that we THINK is our Self!

Okay, Okay...I'll stop - sorry folks! (the apology was not sincere but I will stop!)

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Thank you all for sharing. It is so refreshing.

It also seems that Paul was always correcting error in the church but in Love and always building up.

He taught people to rely on Holy Spirit and to commune with God, meditating on His Word, always lifting up Jesus Christ.

There will always be disagreement I suppose but as the quote says "In all things Love".

God bless.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

HRH...girlfriend...did I mention....

<font color="ff0000"><font face="arial,helvetica"><font size="+1">you rock</font></font></font>

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/yawn.gif Gratzi!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Hey Queen, I really like your buck and change. I ended up reading tons of science fiction/fantasy and a lot of Russian history and stuff about music and creative people. I found a lot of ways to express things and grew a lot as an individual. It wasn't about imitation. It was assimilation of a lot of styles and diferent kinds of personalities and kind of subconsciously picking out what to be in light of it as I felt led in the Spirit. Looking at various artists and listening to a lot of different kinds of music are part of the same kind of process. Have you read any R.A.Lafferty? He's a scream.

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Hi Bob - I've read my share of SciFI/Fantasy -- more toward Fantasy. The Arthurian legend has been a passion for a while - the symbolism is quite complex and deeply textured. (Mary Stewart, White, Twain, Malory, Ashe, Bradley, Lawhead, etc.) Don't believe that I have read anything by Lafferty - I was into Donaldson for several levels...then it got too much, like leading two lives! McGaffrey (?sp), a little Arthur Clarke, Ursula Le Guinn,M. Lackey - too many to name.

Then of course, there are the Chronicles of Narnia! Oh yeah - have a little symbolism cocktail!!!

Did you ever come across a book entitled "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich"? Another beautiful book (fantastic pictures of Russian art, etc.) was "Land of the Firebird." T

here is so much evidence of the creative spirit "out there" that there just don't seem to be enough hours in any day to ingest it all -- or, indeed, even a small fraction of it -- but, well, we must try -- no?!

[jeannie (jeannie)]

A day in the life.. Solzhenitsyn.. the gulag.

Great book HRH!

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

Let God be true, but every man a liar.
Ro. 3:4

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Just say what you mean, c-la-ve...we probably will be able to understand.

[isabella (isabella)]

C La Verite,

Yes! Let God be true and every man, a liar!

I understand.

Isabella

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif

[yogi (yogi)]

Hey c_la_verite,

Did you receive my fourth attempt?

Yogi

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

ouiiii.....c'est formidable!!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I started 'A Day in the Life...' but didn't finish.
I've read other books by Solzhenitsyn, including the first version of 'August 1914'. I like Dostoyevsky and switching venues Kafka. Also P.K.Dick. I've read tons of C.S.Lewis and George MacDonald. I do like Donaldson, and am actually rereading the Thomas Covenant series. He's recently started adding another series of books to it. The first one is available in the Pittsfield library. I'm reading 'The Illearth Stone' now. Patricia McKillip is well worth your attention. She's one of the best I've found. I also really like Roger Zelazny. And I haven't read much by him, but Terry Pratchett is good. And I love Mervyn Peake. There's another very interesting English writer named David Lindsay. There's more than one author with this name, but this guy wrote a really fascinating book called 'The Voyage to Arcturus'.

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

HRH...i was responding to mercyreigns question at the beginning of the thread....

"So much confusion here in Factnet, so many voices with opinions on who has the right doctrine and who is led by the Spirit, It is staggering. If you have anything to post that is helpful please post here."

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

...i think i'd go for bob's reading list most days rather than a bunch of doctrine books.

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Amen and Amen C-la!!

[yogi (yogi)]

<font size="-2">I like Dostoyevsky and switching venues Kafka </font>

Bob, I would never have figured someone with your sunny disposition to be an Anna Kafka fan! Cool! Should have known though; after all, you are a fan of John Coltrane!

My favorite Fedor D. is "Crime and Punishment" and "The Brothers K." What about you?

Yogi

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

It's a while since I've read him, but Crime was a great book. There's a series of translations done by Pevear and Volokhonsky that is far superior to those old Constance Garrett translations that flood libraries and used book stores. I should get back to Crime at some point. I have their translation of it but don't think I've read it yet. I did read one by Garrett or someone else.

[yogi (yogi)]

I'll keep your recommendation in mind!

Yogi

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

btw HRH...really liked your post on Thursday, January 13, 2005 - 6:50 pm:

when i first came to TBS i often heard it said "bible school is the highest form of education". at the time it would annoy the heck out me... for sure i was out in the zone at the time but also maybe because the spirit behind it was "our bible school is the highest form of education". i have come full circle in the sense that yeah i do believe the study of the Word of God is above all others... but a true study of the Word leads us to a greater longing to know HIM...not just to know that I know more than you or becoming dependent upon someone else's doctrine or ideas. If my learning from the Word of God brings me to a place where i become more and more narrow so that God has to fit into my "doctrinal box"...something is wrong. Not talking about cardinal doctrines of the faith... Knowing God frees me to see Him in all of the creation...His hand and creativity in all creatures...yes even those who do not know Him or deny Him... He is inifinite...He is mystery...He is everywhere yeah even if i make my bed in hell..
for me the fundamental is understanding His character and being convinced of His justice, love, mercy etc...etc... it frees me to realize that it is not about me, stupid....it is about Him...i don't have to go around getting everybody right...i can trust Him to do that and i can just enjoy His life and letting that life flow to me and from me....= heaven on earth....

(Message edited by c_la_verite on January 15, 2005)

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

c_la_verite

what a beautiful heart you have, and what a blessing you are to Him, it is clear you must be a blessing to Him, for your words bless us so much.

I came also to these thoughts as I healed from the abuses of my GGWO...and to see this truth saved me from being swallowed up in bitterness.

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

C_la - Oh, yeah. Loved your statement, "I don't have to go around getting everybody right" - THANK GOD that it's not my job!!!!

Bob - Yogi - Coltrane fans??? One of my fav.albums is Coltrane and Johnny Hartman - mmmmmmmmm - so sweet! Thanks also for recommendations...I've got so many things I want to read I'll have to live to 150 to get it all done!

Roberta - you doing ok girl? You take care of yourself.

And Whitehorse -- is that bum finger keeping you off the board??? Take a pill or two and talk to us - will you? (Now everyone who's lurking...she had a finger operated on, so don't make any naughty assumptions!!)

Nightall...pax, pax!

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

RJ http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

(Message edited by c_la_verite on January 15, 2005)

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

HRH, I have very wide ranging musical tastes. I've never been big on country music like God is, but I especially like progressive rock (art/classical rock), classical music (including hard core atonal and infuriatingly complex stuff), and a lot of jazz (especially Coltrane, but others like Monk, Miles, Bill Evans, Mahavishnu Orchestra, etc.). I like some more modern things (Sarah McLachlan, Alanis Morrisette, DMB,etc.). Prior to Bible school, I was a die hard Tull freak and loved Gentle Giant and Yes. Still am and do. But I think Coltrane is the most spontaneously creative musician I've ever heard.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

HRH...having a bit of a relapse, but enjoying the love that has become so evident round here.

BTW, whoo classifies as an Old Timer? *s* I am old, only knew the place as TBS...does this old lady qualify?

[minutus (minutus)]

Bob,

Ever listen to Return to Forever? They rate right up there with Mahavishnu.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Hi Dave, Yeah. I've listened to some, but not recently. I like Chick Corea a lot, and used to listen to a lot of Al DiMeola. I liked McLaughlin better than Al D though. He was 'spacier', more sort of visually oriented. Al had a lot of the traditional Spanish bug in him, which was good in its own way. Mahavishnu was like music from another world.

[yogi (yogi)]

As I read the intelligent and interesting posts here I marvel at HOW in the heck we got suckered into a cult like GGWO headed by an uneducated door-to-door salesman?

Yogi

PS: I know Chilly-D, **** you Yogi! How original!

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

RJ - "Old Timers" I guess are those who have been through the TBSGGWO ringer and are either pegged to the line, in the ironing basket, or have pressed and are back on the hanger. (odd metaphor, that)!

Glad things are looking better.

[minutus (minutus)]

Bob,

I know what you mean about the "spacier" side of JM, but what I admire most about both artists is their refusal to be stuck in a rut. While Al Dimeola has worked with the Spanish/Italian motif a lot, he has branched off into Middle Eastern flavors a lot in his later stuff (I believe he's married to a Turkish lady.) He has sought out some of the best players of that style, such as Arto Tuncboyacian. Another guitar player with similar explorations is Brian Keane in his collaborations with Omar Faruk Tekbilek. Check out "Beyond the Sky."

What's amazing about Al was his blinding speed and skill at age 18, which contributed to making RTF in their prime the tightest fusion group that ever existed IMHO. He doesn't play quite so fast as he gets older http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

Did you ever listen to Shakti or the One Truth Band? I saw the latter once and was blown away by L. Shankar's violin playing. The beauty made me weep.

[yogi (yogi)]

<font size="-2">While Al Dimeola has worked with the Spanish/Italian motif a lot, he has branched off into Middle Eastern flavors a lot in his later stuff (I believe he's married to a Turkish lady.) </font>

Bob and minutus, did you gentlemen know there's a GG pastor in the south of France who used to play bass with Dimeola? His name's Dominique DiPiazza and unfortunately he's apparently still suckered into this cult! GREAT jazz bass player!

It's true, Al Dimeola is a virtuoso on the guitar; however, it is not true that one's ability to play fast diminishes with time. For example Maestro Isaac Stern, he's in his late 80s and he can still play fast.Also I saw Paco de Lucia last year in Washington he's in his early 60's; still playing as if in his 20's. Even Maestro Segovia was able to perform into his 90's fingers still nimble but notes missed due to his vision and cognitive abilities. Virtuosity is just one of the attributes that make a musician great. One can also have an ear, composition, arranging etc..which will not diminish with time unless you don't use your gifts or you have some problems with the brain such as Alzheimer's, stroke, or dementia.

I recommend that youlisten to some other guitar virtuosos, such as,
>>Cacho Tirao from Argentina, (Adios Nonino) by Astor Piazzolla.
>>Astor Piazzolla (anything of his is great!)
>>Yngiew Malmsteen from Sweden (Concerto for Guitar and orchestra in E Flat)
>>Friday Night in San Francisco with:
Al Dimeola, John Mclaughlin and Paco de Lucia.
>> Nylon and Steel with:
Manuel Barrueco and Al Dimeola
>> El Concierto de Aranjuez maybe the most beautiful guitar concert ever composed by maestro Joaquin Rodrigo played by John Williams.

Yogi

[minutus (minutus)]

Yogi,

I don't think Al's ability has diminished. It just seems he doesn't need to prove it anymore with the wild electric stuff. I did see him and JM down here years ago (Paco was supposed to be there but was ill). That was a great concert!

I have looked at Dominique's career on the web and am quite impressed. Sometime I'll order some of his stuff and check it out. Love great bass players better than good guitar players, because it takes a little extra to make the bass sing. The best I've seen are Stanley Clarke and Jaco Pastorius when he was playing with Weather Report.

[yogi (yogi)]

minutus,

You are so right, when you've got it you've got it forever! It's true it takes a lot of strength and dexterity to make a bass sing! Ever hear of Abraham Laboriel from Mexico? He's a born-again Christian bass player who played with the best of the best in jazz venues BC. Had a conversion experience but still rocks the jazz world to date! A highly recommend a listen to his arrangement of Kumbaya [you'll cry like a litte girl when you hear it]!

Yogi

PS: Bert, a little "perversion" of Billy Joel's song "para usted"...

We Didn't Want This Liar!

Dede Stoddard, Nancy Wehe, Ron Kirkwood-, Jackie Gough
Baltimore, Walter’s boyfried- Carl the Nephew

Kent Suotorius, Nancy Curra, Ed and Kathy Lutz
Steve Bryne, Jeannie Bryne, Angela Annesse

The Leonards, Bobby Brinton, Daniel Lewis, Cristal &amp; Ivar,
maria-t, Paul and the I, and the majority of the “Body”

Alan Lang, oxycontin, New England's got a new queen, Betsy!
rjfernalld, Brian Bowman , Yogi and goodbye

CHORUS
We didn't want this liar
HE was always lying
Since this ministries been luring
We didn't want this liar-
No, we didn't want it
But now we fight against it!

If you're reading FACTNet, my apologies Billy!

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

hey yogi...you're right about dominique...he is truly a great musician and also deliriously funny...not too long ago he did a CD of classic hymms...apparantly very difficult to do on the bass...really good...if anyone is interested they can check out his site...the demeos have their hooks deep into him and his wife...being a celebrity makes them useful of course...i feel bad because back in january i blew it by speaking my mind to freely about things he was not ready to hear... please pray for them....dominique &amp; rosita dipiazza

hey yogi...why don't we ever hear from booboo http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[yogi (yogi)]

C-La,

Had the pleasure of meeting Dominique, his wife and daughter at convention a few years ago! It was fun to "talk shop" [ Jesus and the guitar] with him!

Also, I did hear from "what a boo-boo" this morning...his new moniker is Chilly-D! !http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

Yogi

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Wow Yogs,

You certainly are more than the average bear! Graphics extraordinaire AND lyricist? Did I know you in the other life?

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif 2 funny yogi

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

yogi...you da bomb http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/kiss.gif

[yogi (yogi)]

Sorry to say no pretty lady!
Perhaps sometime in the future though!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/blush.gif

Yogi

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I heard Shakti years back. Once I saw JM with a group of Indian musicians somewhere near Kenmore Square in Boston. There were all kinds of Hare Krishnas wandering around the square in their white and orange outfits. The playing was incredible.

DiMeola was much cleaner than JM in his playing. That was what was so impressive about how fast he played. JM almost sounded sloppy compared to Al, but there was the sense that the music had him totally swallowed within itself. Al was more normally structured. JM was Spirit led and Al was a man of the Word? That's a loose translation into Biblical terminology; not meant to be doctrinally PC.

I love good bass playing. I've always liked Yes' Chris Squire. Tony Levin is good. And John Wetton did some good things with Family and King Crimson. Laboriel played with Twila Paris on at least one of her albums, and some drummer that I think had worked with Chick Corea. Pattituci?

[yogi (yogi)]

Sounds like a fantastic experience! You're right DiMeola is much cleaner in his technique. Have you ever heard DiMeola's project with:Paco De Lucia and Steve Morse, formerly of Deep Purple? (excuse me while I revert back to GGWO nomenclature) "WOW", "AWESOME" "PASTOR" oops!
If you're into speed this is the disc for you!
I agree with you, Chris Squire from YES is amazing! As a matter of fact YES just finished performing in Penn. with Dream Theatre opening for THEM! Are you familiar with the bass player for Dream Theater, John Myong? He plays an eight stringed bass and is "pepa!" [Spanish slang for "incredible."

Yogi

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I really like Dream Theater. I haven't heard that particular DiMeola project, I don't think. I haven't kept up with him in recent years.

[isabella (isabella)]

YOGI, HERE'S HOW IT ALL BEGAN:

Yogi wrote: "As I read the intelligent and interesting posts here I marvel at HOW in the heck we got suckered into a cult like GGWO headed by an uneducated door-to-door salesman? Yogi"

Here's how it happened Yogi.

This organization was started by Carl H. Stevens, Jr., but he was just a Bakery Saleman when he got the idea.

He sold bread and cupcakes to women who invited him in and gave him some coffee and talked about his bread and and other things. He noticed how they would confide in him. They mentioned their husbands and children and told him about personal matters. He was ‘amazed’ that they would speak about these things to a perfect stanger, but he liked it quite a bit because it made him feel influential and powerful. He knew that they actually thought that he cared more about them than their own husbands, fathers, sons, sisters, brothers and daughters. He was happy and they were too. They looked forward to the Bakery Man once a week.

Then one day, Carl took a course called “CACHE”. The course taught him how to have confidence no matter what he did. It didn't cost much either. He had experienced some of these very principles in his Bakery Job. A couple of tapes and a workbook and he was on his way! He found out that he could influence all kinds of people, not just his bakery customers. He learned how to talk to people and he learned how to perceive their weaknesses. He learned how to manipulate the emotions of people and influence them for his own benefit. He learned how to approach a perfect stanger with confidence. He knew he had nothing to lose. He could always sell cakes to the lonely housewives if the course didn't work out.

One day, he was at the local store, in Maine, where he lived, and saw a young man. During the sixties, he noticed there were many confused kids who were drinking too much or smoking pot. Carl wasn't into drugs or alcohol in those days and it was easy for him to see their vulnerabilities. He had seen it in the bored and lonely housewives while he was a bakery man. Now he could apply the same principles to these kids. For the young men, who were lost, it was safe to listen to Carl.

He thought to himself..'this is a goldmine, just like the course said.'

Then, Carl became a minister in the Baptist church. In those days, anyone could become a minister. Integrity was assumed (like we used to think about bankers and accountants.) He had his own little church and he invited some of the women, who bought cakes from him, and some of the teenagers he had met, to his services. The women showed up and so did some of the young people. They would sing in the choir, read the Bible and listen to the Word as taught by Carl.

Everyone was happy. The housewives finally got a chance to get out into the world and have a break from the drudgery and the young men finally had something better to do than smoke and drink.

Then, one day, things got a little too close with one of the bakery customers...he was doing something he shouldn’t have been doing, and she was too. When they were found out (actually there were several bakery customers) the men who had been married to these women decided to confront him. That's when he ran to the back of the church and was lowered down to the ground from a rear window. Whew! Thank God, he got away.

As luck would have it, he was able to start all over again by starting his own church called “THE BIBLE SPEAKS’...he bought some property in So. Berwick and he invited many of his young friends to come and live there. He told them how they could go out into the world and even travel overseas..they could go on wonderful adventures and become respectable men. All they needed to do was to listen to him and they would be able to realize their own power. The church grew. There was a church, a Bible School, a domitory and a house where he and his family could live.

Then, Carl found a wonderful bargain in western MA. Imagine, 88 acres of land.. Moreover, there were buildings on this land...great potential, what a wonderful place for a Bible College! He was so happy!

Everything was under control. He moved into Lenox with his wife and children. The young men and some of the bakery customers went too. The young men studied the Bible and sat under his teachings. Many of them went overseas and some even married there. He made teams of them. They were scared at first, but once they got into it, they began to feel confident. Some of them felt as if they were fakes, but eventually, even these began to feel better about themselves..and they found that they could actually influence others, just like Carl.

Other people visiting the 'campus' would see them and hear their stories and were impressed. "Wow, something is happening here and it must be good. Look at these young men who once were hippie- druggies and now, they are Men Of God!"

There were all kinds of people in Carl's church now. Even other young people were impressed with the accomplishments. They were not part of the drug culture, but they had heard about it and they too were impressed with this 'church'. Eventually there were more than twelve hundred people attending a single service on Sunday nights.

For some of the youngsters he recruited, it was all they had now. Imagine, from a little hippie smoking and drinking in the woods..to a 'Man of God, leading a whole congregation and having the respect they always dreamed about but thought they could never attain. They were very happy and Carl was happy too.

He sent them out into all the world. They went to China and France, Finland, Italy and even Russia. He also sent them into the communities of the United States. Yes!..Let's go into all the world, he said, and they did.

In the very beginning, many of these young pastors drove untold miles to establish churches. There were coffee houses and pizza parlors to go to..all the way from the home base in Lenox to Boston and the surrounding communities. They mixed in with the kids. They would sit down and speak to the young people. Then, they would drive back to Lenox, half asleep, sometimes..many times nearly missing an accident (which they would later use in their sermons about God's Will towards them) and many times, just making it back to 'home base'without incident.

When they returned to Lenox, they would tell 'Pastor' what the young people told them. He knew exactly what to do with it. The next day, he would go on the radio (Telephone Time) and he would speak to the young people who were at the coffee houses the night before. He knew what they were thinking, he knew their names and he didn't hesitate to use this information to trick them into thinking that he could read their minds! Once in a while he would even speak directly to one of them, using the information he had from his traveling pastor. For example: One night, a young man told 'Pastor Robinson' that he just lost his job. Pastor Robinson told the young man to listen into Telephone Time on 9:60 AM Radio the next day. The young man did listen in. What do you think he heard Yogi?! Yes, something about the loss of a job, and how God was trying to tell him to go to Bible School! Oh the Glory and the Power of Mind Control...it has lots of benefits..the young man did go to Lenox. He thought that God was speaking!

That's how, Yogi, that's how it happened.

Love &amp; Prayers,
Isabella

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Yogi now you have peeked my curiosity. I ran the booth for Orphans First the year that Dominique and his wife were there.

Oh well guess I will never know. I am not very good at figuring out who anyone is here. But now I am pretty sure you know me now.

God bless.

[yogi (yogi)]

Dear Isabella,

Thank you for the enlightening bedtime story!
Sadly, the saga continues to date...
Chapter and verse this story has repeated itself over and over and over again! Let's hope that this is the FINAL chapter for this cult!

Blessings to you sweet one, good-night!

Yogi

[yogi (yogi)]

I know you Nancy. You're a compassionate and faithful woman of God! And if my memory serves me right, you also have wonderful, self-deprecating sense of humor!

Yogi

[isabella (isabella)]

Good Night Yogi, Yogerella, Yogerino...sweet dreams.
Isabella

[yogi (yogi)]

You forgot "yogurt" Iz! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Bon Nuit,

Yogi

[minutus (minutus)]

To continue Isabella's story to the tune of "The Beverly Hillbillies":

Well the next thing you know Carl fleeced a millionaire.
Judge Q said "Boy, move away from there."
He said "We'll take your campus 'cause your lies ain't ministry."
So he loaded up the cult, buggered out to Charm City.

Bawlmer, that is. Funeral homes, shopping plazas.

Well now its time to say goodnight to Carl and all his pills.
And he would like to thank you folks fer kindly payin' the bills.
You're all invited back again to his locality
To have a heapin helpin of anointed repartee.

"Awesome categorical doctrine" that is. "Sit under" a spell, Turn your brain off.

Y'all come back now, y'hear?.

Sorry - I just couldn't resist http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

[ethelmertz (ethelmertz)]

LOLhttp://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[yogi (yogi)]

I LOVE IT MINUTUS!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/rofl.gif

"...well the next thing ya know ol' Carl's a millionaire!"

On a serious note, I think your theological expertise is needed on the new thread from Rome, NY!

Yogi

[buggin (buggin)]

BRAVO Isabella !

That is more than a "story".
That is very similar to the narrative Chet Farmer spoke of while still alve.
With one exception. Chet mentioned an experience that Elizabeth Dovydenas had.
In the process of writing her own account about her experience with the Bible Speaks and Carl Stevens she dilligently made an effort to confirm what people told her about their past association and experience with Stevens.
Like a reporter confirming her source.
This was apparently to seperate the consistency of what people said versus random gossip.
It was said that Elizabeth D. drove to Maine and secured a signed affadavit from a former sales associate of Stevens who told her this;
When Stevens was about to leave his "Cushman" route (as I remember him referring to his Bakery sales route) he bragged to one of his sales associates: "I don't need this job anymore, I found a new racket" This incited the question from Stevens associate:"What kind of racket?" Stevens was quoted as replying: "Christianity!"

BTW Elizabeth never did publish her account for personal reasons. But like a number of ex members there is much she could still say.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Nancy...

Did you ever discover John William's contact info for me? I have been looking and looking and I simply cannot find him anywhere.

Roberta

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Buggin.

I can attest to Betsy's diligent effort for the "real story" and she definitely could have much more to add.

And maybe she will!

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Hi Roberta I emailed a lady who is close to them but she hasn't gotten back to me. I don't know who else to ask.

O I just thought of someone as I am writing. I will email him right now.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Isabella, I loved your story. It would be great with illustrations. Maybe it could even be turned into a miniseries. I liked the related song from Dave also.

Jeannie, Maybe someone should invite Betsy to the Freeport bash in August. She did us the favor of driving home base out of New England.

[san (san)]

Minutus

LOL LOL That was great!! Nice voice too!!

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Excellent, Isabella, Minutus, and Buggin!
How to drive the reality home with humor.
Yes, Chet Farmer too would be proud of you as am
I and I am sure many others.

(Message edited by louise connolly on January 17, 2005)

[minutus (minutus)]

So if Baltimore is "home base" does that make us "free base?"

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Isabella,

Really enjoyed your "Reader's Digest" synopsis. However, you left out one very vital detail as to how they could afford this great deal on the Lenox property. That would be the many, many people who sold homes, gave all the proceeds to CHS, and moved to Lenox with a promise of "housing forever." CHS denied that later, but many of us heard him say it in Maine. I even had one friend who apologized to CHS because he used some of his house proceeds to buy a car. Maybe that was why he was on eof the first to be "booted out?" Anyway, most never saw a dime of their money returned and no apology. Fool that I was, I believed him when he made a few token payments and gave platitudes to them and their families.

Other than that small (???) omission, thank you for a great rendering.

God bless,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Roberta I am so sorry. No one that I know can help me with John Williams. I really tried.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Thank you so much for trying for me Nancy...I truly appreciate it!!!

[c_la_verite (c_la_verite)]

you're a riot minutus http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif i'm afraid i've become addicted to "free basing"

[isabella (isabella)]

Ralph Wells Wrote: "Isabella, Really enjoyed your "Reader's Digest" synopsis. However, you left out one very vital detail as to how they could afford this great deal on the Lenox property. That would be the many, many people who sold homes, gave all the proceeds to CHS, and moved to Lenox with a promise of "housing forever." CHS denied that later, but many of us heard him say it in Maine. I even had one friend who apologized to CHS because he used some of his house proceeds to buy a car. Maybe that was why he was on eof the first to be "booted out?" Anyway, most never saw a dime of their money returned and no apology. Fool that I was, I believed him when he made a few token payments and gave platitudes to them and their families. Other than that small (???) omission, thank you for a great rendering. God bless, Ralph
(1Cor 15:10)"

Thanks, Ralph, it gives me a thrill when someone mentions my postings.

You need to go on the We Are Sorry thread (thank you, Anon Brief for getting it un-imbedded) and you will see your part of the story.

Isn't it uncanny that we all know the same story? Could it be that these guys have 'systematized' the procedure?

Take a look at the thread that speaks of Jeff Wisot (whoever he is) on this board.

He seems to have learned the process of Fleecing the Flock. No shame, no problem..just a little Bible Doctrine.

Meanwhile, the people who went to his church/cult are crying out loud to him...still it doesn't matter.

Maybe he will go to the February Meeting and try to get some relief.

But, Jeff Wisot, be very careful. Sometimes the tail bites the dog and visa versa....if you know what I mean.

Thanks again, Ralph and thank you Anonomous Brief for putting my post on its own thread. I am writing a few more repentence statements for them since they cannot repent for themselves...hope they are appreciative..do you think?

Love &amp; Prayers,
Isabella

[minutus (minutus)]

Great job, Isabella!

[arguendo (arguendo)]

For Lana

[churchgrowth]

And Jehovah had said to Abram, Go out of thy land, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, to the land that I will shew thee. 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing. 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. 4 And Abram departed as Jehovah had said to him. And Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed out of Haran. 5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their possessions that they had acquired, and the souls that they had obtained in Haran, and they went out to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came. 6 And Abram passed through the land to the place of Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land. 7 And Jehovah appeared to Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land. And there he built an altar to Jehovah who had appeared to him. 8 And he removed thence towards the mountain on the east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, [having] Bethel toward the west, and Ai toward the east; and there he built an altar to Jehovah, and called on the name of Jehovah. 9 And Abram moved onward, going on still toward the south. 10 And there was a famine in the land. And Abram went down to Egypt to sojourn there, for the famine was grievous in the land. 11 And it came to pass when he was come near to enter into Egypt, that he said to Sarai his wife, Behold now, I know that thou art a woman fair to look upon. 12 And it will come to pass when the Egyptians see thee, that they will say, She is his wife; and they will slay me, and save thee alive. 13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister, that it may be well with me on thy account, and my soul may live because of thee. 14 And it came to pass when Abram came into Egypt, that the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair. 15 And the princes of Pharaoh saw her, and praised her to Pharaoh; and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house. 16 And he treated Abram well on her account; and he had sheep, and oxen, and he-<font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>, and bondmen, and bondwomen, and she-<font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>, and camels. 17 And Jehovah plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai Abram's wife. 18 And Pharaoh called Abram, and said, What is this thou hast done to me? Why didst thou not tell me that she was thy wife? 19 Why didst thou say, She is my sister, so that I took her as my wife. And now, behold, there is thy wife: take [her], and go away. 20 And Pharaoh commanded [his] men concerning him, and they sent him away, and his wife, and all that he had.

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
HEY Churchgrowth,people shouldn't use God's Word for evil intent.
You should know that.

</font>}