Godbs Will

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Sorry, Jim, but I've been reading again.

George Sweeting writes in How to Discover the Will of God: "Often guidance in the will of God will come to us in the normal circumstances of life, through open and closed doors. But be careful not to give this area more consideration than it deserves. Satan can also open and shut doors of opportunity. Gather all the facts, and prayerfully seek the mind of God."

A common theme amongst the posters here is that "God led me to GGWO." "It was God's plan for me to go to GGWO." "I definitely felt that God wanted me to be at GGWO."

My feeling is that this is another facet of the GGWO experience that keeps Carl's power intact. "God must have led me there for a purpose!" If it were God's will for people to get involved in a cult, then I guess it's God's will for people to get sick and die slowly, it's God's will that children get molested, it was God's will for the tsunami to strike, etc. How did the tsunami fit into God's will? When is something NOT God's will?

Do people ever make mistakes? Do people ever do wrong? I don't understand the spin. If another church or pastor, unconnected with GGWO were committing these abuses, I wonder if the GGWO defenders would be as defensive.

I see a lot of "sentiment" here for GGWO.

Still trying to understand..........}

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Great quote Boss,

So often (myself included) say "God led me to do this or that." And very often they contradict a previous "leading."

I too felt "led" to GGWO, then TBS, was I? I can no longer truly say. With my wife's lack of comfort there I would have to say, "I was led astray." And with her witness on coming out, "I was Spirit led."

I can also echo what someone said on another thread, many people were saved (in spite of the garbage) and most of us are growing (because of teh garage we experienced) beyond GGWO/TBS, for that we can, and must thank God.

And, I can also thank God for many great friendships made! Many who are out, and (unfortunealy) many who are still in.

Thank you for your postings, they are most often thoughtful and always provoking.

I am a retired military man, and am also praying for your comrades in arms way. Also rejoicing that God has, at least for now, spared you a return trip.

God bless,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[whocaresanymore (whocaresanymore)]

I think all of this is about God's will being expressed and for us to learn to trust Him. I know that is the case for me.

[herroyalhighness (herroyalhighness)]

Well, I'll risk earning the lable of "heretic" by saying that I believe God gave us brains, feelings, senses (physical as well as hyperphysical - my term), powers of observation and critical thinking and wants us to use them. Often when I (notice I'm speaking from my personal experience) have referred to something being "God's will" in my life, I should have realized that it was simply what I wanted or had decided to do. Sometimes I would even claim "God's will" when it was something I just "wanted" to do, even when my reason would have told me not to do it. I think God's will is for us to use the capacities he gave us and determine what is best for us...Generally I used to make it way more mystical than I now believe it to be...I'm more convinced than ever that we should use the tools given to us by the Creator as we journey through time & space.

Ah, well.......I'll leave it at that for this time.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

I really get overwhelmed from time to time trying to come to grips with this thing called GGWO. The other "go to" excuse I hear is that "if God is so displeased with GGWO and Carl, then why has He allowed this ministry to prosper?" I agree with you, Doris, Ralph, and yourroyalhighness, it is SIMPLY LIFE. God has given us choices and the mind and discernment to know the right thing to do. What we do with those gifts is why God holds us accountable for our actions.

I get a little P.O.ed when people "hide" behind God.

[whocaresanymore (whocaresanymore)]

I don't think it is about hiding behind God as much as hiding in Him and being used for His glory. There is no doubt that things have been wrong. Discussing things and learning from them is a great thing. Entering into a spirit of mockery, opinions, gossip and maligning and having no resolution to the matter is vain to me. It is life, but life teaches us how to profit from things, not how to dwell in them, enter into self-pity of self-righteousness. GGWO has a lot of people that are learning things. Talking down to them will only shut the door for them to get help and keep their own wounds open. Take it for what it is worth. I have read this stuff, looking for God and found just more people evaluating other people and coming up with nothing.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

It's not talking down to them.

These are the facts:

Carl H. Stevens has preached and continues to preach that he is God's delegated authority on Earth. This means that he speaks DIRECTLY FOR GOD and is not to be questioned. Because of this, he has broken up families, stolen money, and essentially ruined people's lives.

What is there to learn about this?

Does Carl H. Stevens speak directly for God or not?

Carl H. Stevens has preached FROM THE PULPIT that if you speak against his ministry in any way, you will get cancer or die. He specifically preached that five men died as a result of speaking against his ministry.

Is this true, whocaresanymore? Do you believe this? I happen to think it's a damnable lie. What is there to be learned about this?

Carl H. Stevens has preached that he will be present on Judgement Day to intercede on YOUR behalf with God. Do you believe this? What is there that needs to be learned about this?

Yes, I'm evaluating people. Carl Stevens, in particular. I ask you directly, whocaresanymore, do you believe in Carl's version of delegated authority? His version of the Bema Seat? His assertion that he is annointed more than the common man? His assertion that death and/or disease await anyone who dares question him? Do you believe these things? The death and disease doctrine has been well documented, yet I have not heard one GGWO defender say if they believe it or not. Do you think it's ok for your pastor to make comments like that? Do you believe that Carl can make God cause cancer in someone?

I do not. There is nothing to "learn" here. These things I have mentioned here, they all come DIRECTLY from Carl's teachings, not my interpretation. These teachings are a LIE. Further, these lies have been used to hurt a lot of people. These doctrines are why people have recognized GGWO as a cult. Ignoring these doctrines does NOT help people heal. Carl Stevens is engaging in EVIL! There is nothing wrong with calling it what it is and calling him what he is.

It's called discernment!

[whocaresanymore (whocaresanymore)]

I am not talking about the doctrinal diffrences. Certainly, I do not believe in them. I am talking about the mocking spirit and opinions about people that do not represent Christ. That is all. To me, that is what we can learn from this. How to deal with these issue in the light without degrading the value of a soul.

[helenaofmass (helenaofmass)]

CHS teaches fear, fear by control, love by fear, FEAR!FEAR! FEAR!. He is no different than any other of those that control the masses by using tacticts that strike at the heart of those who are in his reach.
Bravo Boss! You hit the nail right on the head.
I have serious doubts as to whether or not a public apology and repentance is enough. These elders need some "deprogramming" before they can even think of moving forward.
I am all for forgiveness, believe me, I need it daily. But let us not mistake forgiveness with absoulute ignorance. By that I mean, forgiveness is mandatory I think as long as there is true repentance, and in some cases even if there isn't. But there is also a case to be made for the old adage of "Fooled me once ............
Look at it this way, this doctrine has been inbedded in these people for years upon years, through tapes, MBCS, CHS even more so then the people who sat in the church. Why would they be immune to mind control? They aren't. They need to repent and repair. It is that simple.

[whocaresanymore (whocaresanymore)]

Completely agree. That simply is not what I am talking about. I am not talking about them. I am talking about myself, which only I can choose. I want to deal with things in a profitable way that will bring God glory and give hope to others. I don't think doing the same thing that others have done to me is the way to get victory. We all need accountability to God.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Fear is definitely key here!

It's not just the doctrine. You don't have to look any further than the other threads on Factnet to see that there are MANY different doctrines around. The problem is that Carl is using these doctrines to do bad things! VERY bad things!

whocaresanymore, I don't mean to badger you, but I assume that you are familiar with the Scott Peterson murder case. Assuming he's guilty, would you respond to any story about his guilt with concerns for his soul? Would you label his trial as a witch hunt? Would you say that people are out for blood and need to let God handle it?

I don't think so. I think that at a minimum, you would want to see a guilty Scott Peterson, or any other "secular" or non-GGWO criminal brought to task, if for no other reason, it would keep society safer.

Why then is there so much concern about poor old Carl Stevens? What makes him different than Jim Jones or David Koresh? If you don't believe that Carl is specially annointed, then why should he be treated differently than any other criminal? Could you please explain that one to me? If a man told your parents to sell everything they had and give it to his "ministry" and your parents now live in poverty, would your primary concern be for his "soul"? Why is it different if it's Carl?

The issue is that regardless of doctrine used to justify it, Carl is committing evil acts. They have to stop. That is the issue. Why then is the focus on keeping Carl's feelings from being hurt? Carl is doing wrong! When he stops, then and only then should the conversation turn to forgiveness. It seems to me that instead of focusing on whether or not Carl's legacy is going to be injured, we need to focus on the people he's injured, and the lies he uses to justify it!

whocaresanymore, my intent is not to drive you away, but I do want to hear justification for treating Carl differently than other wrongdoers.

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

This is NOT doing what Carl has done!

No one on this board is saying that they speak directly for God!

No one on this board is telling you to sell your possessions, give up your career, marry someone you barely know and live in a "body house"!

No one is telling you that you will get cancer for disagreeing!

No one is telling you that they will be present at Judgement Day to intercede on your behalf!

If I told you that everything I do brings glory to God, I would be lying, but the actions and teachings of Carl Stevens are stealing the glory of God for the worship of a man! If Carl is not stopped, if people don't show that they care, THAT will cause people to lose hope. How many people have suffered under Carl Stevens' bull**** lies because they believed THAT'S WHAT GOD WANTS FOR ME! How many people have lived this crap because GOD'S MAN SAYS THAT'S THE WAY IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE! How many people have been afraid to stand up to GOD's MAN?

I'm sorry, but your justifications are just what Carl and the elders want.

[whocaresanymore (whocaresanymore)]

I don't take it as badgering and I appreciate your comments. I am just not talking about Carl. I am speaking of the personal attitudes. When someone says something, they are concerned that they will be killed here. God is capable of taking care of people. If I am drawn into talking about someone, I want to make sure it is worthwhile and represents truth and glorifies God. I do not look for justification to slander someone or mock them. You bring up what would I do if it was about someone else. I ask you, if there are other things that bother you, do you waste your time on other sights to complain about them also. Or are you just interested in doing that here? I think it would be good to ask the same question to yourself before you ask someone else. There is a life to live and it is abundant from God. Some are here 24 hours a day with so many opinions that mean nothing. I would encourage people to enjoy the opportunity to live life unto God today. It is a gift. Rest in the fact ( net ) that God can take care of these things. I have thought of posting here many times, but have seen people get hurt. I got hurt by GGWO also, but I realized sharing it here is risking getting hurt more. Many read this to find Christ and encouragement from believers. It is sad that it just does not happen. They get another opinion about them of which they already had at GGWO. Same system to me !!

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

I continue to post and read here because of someone that I love very much that is still in. I also post and read here because this cult is, even as we speak, out recruiting people with Carl's lies. Yes, I'm taking it personally. But unlike posting on a Democrat or Republican web site about whether or not your candidate got shafted, in this case, I think people can make a difference. I am naive enough to believe that the reason GGWO has lasted for so long is because there was no internet and it was easy for Carl to lie his way out of any situation. I feel like I can make a difference in at least one person's life.

I have been hurt by GGWO and I have also been hurt a little on this board. If GGWO crumbles, if Carl is dethroned as the false idol and graven image that he is, it is all worth it.

Maybe someone will find Christ here, but to me, that isn't the purpose of this board. My feeling is that it's another defense mechanism of GGWO to bring that up. ("Think of all the souls that won't get saved if not for PASTAH!!!!!!") Christ is everywhere! There is a man that says HE is Christ's man on Earth and to serve Christ, you have to serve him. The purpose of THIS board is to stop Carl Stevens and his lies. I want people to find the REAL Christ. Exposing Carl Stevens lies does NOTHING to damage God! Carl is NOT GOD. Criticizing Carl is NOT criticizing God! I am still on that journey (learning more about God), and I don't have the answers except that CARL STEVENS IS NOT THE ANSWER! I don't want ANYONE that I care about to get snared in this cult.

I also post on some other web sites on subjects that I care about. I don't think it's a waste of time if I think I can help make a difference. Carl and the rest of the GGWO Mafia WANT everyone to get discouraged and leave them alone.

Not this time, Carl. Not this time.

[kirk (kirk)]

You Go Boss!!!!
It is about time that people look at this for what it is and nothing more. unfortunatly, we have been taught to over-spiritualize everything. As if we are somehow being more christlike.

People can't handle the TRUTH much less the really tough questions. I know that ggwo teaches against any type of therapy, but sometimes people have to vent to heal and in doing so others are brought to a healing place by hearing others vent. If for nothing else but to know that it didn't only happen to them.

Come back to terra firma whocaresanymore. If you don't care anymore then stop policing those that do.

Tell it like it is Boss!

[helenaofmass (helenaofmass)]

What Carl Stevens is doing is in no way an insignificant matter. He is teaching things about our LORD, JESUS CHRIST that are not true.
He is misleading people for his own glorification, not God's.
Whocaresanymore? I do. A lot, so does Boss and many other people on here. I stopped posting for the very reasons you mentioned. But you know what, people have to blow off steam and I have come to understand that you just need to get past it. The end will justify the means if the means is getting some resolution and in turn this will glorify GOD.
I too have people I care about in this place and have also been there and done that. Boss is right, through his postings I have come to see him as a pretty wise man. Don't be discouraged from letting your voice be heard, it is important for all of us to find a place where we can voice our concerns and hopes about this travisty.
This isn't like other places where your opnion isn't going to matter. You matter. In my opnion this is most important because we are talking about the most important thing in our lives, our relationship with the Lord. Everything else is affected by that.
This isn't an act of vengance against a man who has done some wrong to people, this is a stand against a man who has misled, misguided, misinformed , destroyed, manipulated, lied, stolen, cheated in the name of GOD. What does that say about us as the children of God to stand by and do nothing?
Helena

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Personally, I think the spiritual gains I got long term from being screwed up by TBS/GGWO outweigh the detrimental effects. I was told by a pastor in the process of leaving TBS (Ed Chute) that I should go to school in Lenox when I personally didn't want to. I think it was God's will for me; looking back at it now. So why don't some of you come back to the Berkshires and help undo the harmful residual effects left from those cowards who ran away to Baltimore?

[whitehorses (whitehorses)]

its way too cold there bob!

[jeannie (jeannie)]

It is a movement in progress Bob... If God leaves the 99 for the one; then reaching the ones left behind over the miles, states and decades are in His plan too.

[ensata (ensata)]

" I think the spiritual gains I got long term from being screwed up by TBS/GGWO outweigh the detrimental effects."

- Bob, My thinking is along the same as yours.

Maybe I will expand on my thoughts more, later.

Steve

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

That sounds good to me Jeannie. He does things very thoroughly. I've got to get off the computer now so my daughter can try to make our printer work. She's having a bad hair evening.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Kirk and Boss, I need to get you guys together! I think you were separated at birth..

Kirk, Any chance you and Robin would venture to Charm City for a visit?

You can stay with us.. We'll invite Kent and Boss.

[helenaofmass (helenaofmass)]

I love the Berkshires Bob. Wouldn't leave N.E. for anyone but God Himself lol.
Good insight.
Helena

[kirk (kirk)]

Hey JeannieB,
Actually we will be coming down this spring to get our second puppy. The breeder that we got Tess from is in Virginia. She asked Santa for a sister this Christmas. She said that she needed a friend to help her hunt so many acres.

I would love to see Kent again. Has anyone heard from Gail? Send her my email Ronaldkirkwood@comcast.net

Please give my golf partner a hug for me, and tell him i have not golfed since the last time with him.
Love yinz guys

[jeannie (jeannie)]

I talk to Gail, she was home for Sarah's wedding in Nov.. she is still in Ca... working on her doctorate.

You have a place to stay in the spring.

Your partner hasn't golfed since the last time either bro..

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Jeanie I would so love to see you and Steve and Kent before I move in 4 weeks. It may be the last time on earth.

Kent came to visit me in the nursing home and we had such sweet fellowship, Jesus high and lifted up.

I will miss so many people. If anyone wants to pop in to visit I would be so honored and blessed. I would like to say goodbye to as many as possible.

Think about. Let me know. You all have my email.

God bless and goodnite.

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

I am struggling here to say something so bear with me. As in the rest of life, we are not all going to agree with all things. The best we can do is to agree to disagree at times.

It is in my nature to not like or want to be a "victim", so please keep in mind that since this is a big part of who I am, it might indeed taint alot of my viewpoint. My nature is also to be "positive" rather than negative. These are just "parts" of me, like being brunette (or grey lately) tall and chubby. I do not judge others by the way I am, but rather realize we are all made different and are different and that's the way it will always be.

I do not believe TBS/GGWO is a cult. Some of you believe it is, and obviously you can. I do indeed believe it has some very cultic and wrong teaching. However, I do believe much good has been done by the lovely folks in this ministry to win and disciple souls in the world. I do believe the Lord Jesus has been magnified through this ministry.

Many in here are very hurt and upset by the ministry. OK, that is OK. However, to throw away all the good that has been done by this ministry and to see those that do this as "deceived" I believe is very incorrect.

As stated earlier, I admit I am very much against "victimization" and very much for "personal accountability". I believe I learned very much about the Lord Jesus and his Word in TBS. I have wonderful friends and have experienced Christ in all those friendships, through good and bad. Life is making choices, every second of the day, either to live in Him or not in Him.

Slaves had no choice but to be slaves. There were risks of death, torture, etc. for choosing to not be slaves. We have many choices every day in TBS/GGWO. We were taught the Word and taught to read the Word for ourselves. Every time I chose not to believe the Word, but rather a "false doctrine" it was a choice to do so.

I understand that we all had many reasons to choose wrong. We were close to each other, and each other was all we had. However, to scapegoat the ministry for all and not take personal accountability is incorrect and not healthy.

I do believe Pastor Stevens has many personal problems. Let's face it, God uses man, for better or worse. He could use angels, but he doesn't, he uses men with all our warts. All of us as men have our personal gifts and "thorn in the fleshes". I personally work for a man very much like CHS. He is controlling and insecure. It is his nature. I can choose to work for him and take the good with the bad, or I can leave for another man with his different foiables.

There is no doubt that men are men. We are all pretty screwed up in all our different ways. But to thrown away the whole TBS or any ministry because of some instances, calling them a "cult" when they just are screwed up some, seems to me a little like the pot calling the kettle black.

I have read the CRI report. I have read other sites where Christian "experts" have spoken about TBS. Seems they do not label it a "cult" but rather say there are definite problems.

What am I trying to say? Just because some of us have gone on and accept the good with the bad, and have repented and claim personal responsibility, I do not believe we are collaborating with the devil (or the elders or current pastors of TBS to keep the "evil" going). We just have realized that we have always had a free will and a mind to choose, right or wrong.

I am not nor have ever been a "victim" of TBS. I am a born again believer who was hurting. In 1973, after a 2 years of being born again, I was comtemplating suicide. I had made bad decisions and had not had the benefit of sound teaching and role models. Marty and Debbie O'Brien invited me to TBS in South Berwick. I went and stayed close to 20 years. I am a much better person and a deeper Christian than when I went in. I have made lemonade out of the lemons.

I am very thankful for the time I spent in TBS, for the Word of God that was taught that was "sound", for the true friends that will be part of me forever. I am thankful that my husband was born again and that our lives are healthy and fruitful.

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

BJ I agree with you that friendships made are strong in Christ and that we have personal accountability.

I don't know if you have ever lived in Baltimore for a period of time but I have for 15 years. There are many things wrong here in the way of mind control by using God's name.

If we didnt' go to 3 services a week we were not honoring God, if we did not go soulwinning with the "Body", if we were independent, then we were not honoring God.

There are many, many things that were said over the years and those of us who went to 3 services and every rap and after rap and Grace Hour and Bible college had these things put in our head over and over and over again.

Being a Christian the last thing any of us wanted to do was dishonor God. And there were other things such as pastors saying degrading things about women just for an example.

I was present. I heard much. I heard things I wish I never heard. I heard Stevens publically slander many famous Christians, Holyfield was one for example.

You can not teach the Finished Work and not apply it to every Christian. And you can not teach what you don't practice and I saw much of that here to.

I am a witness to many things as well as others. Many very Godly people were mocked and slandered and blasted for taking a stand in Baltimore.

The Godliest of the Godliest teachers no longer teach at MBCS. Why is that? I know why.

The elders admittedly are not in agreement at all.

Now we know there is a meeting in February with pastors from all over the world. I believe that some that are coming are very concerned and very Godly men. They are coming to demand answers and sit at the table and try to fix what is wrong.

I pray this works for their sake and the sake of those still in GG. God is in control and if He chooses to use GG and restructure it and deal with people, well then our prayers have been answered.

I agree with you concerning the term victim. I don't feel that I am a victim. However I was mistreated and have a very poor example of what a real church and body life really is.

GG has a problem with cliques and if you don't fit then you are not invited. That's ok, that's their choice but the God they claim to follow is no respecter of persons and esteems the weaker ones higher.

GG is not interested in hearing what we have to say and don't feel they are accountable to those of us who left.

I believe they are accountable to us who left even more so. Jesus looked for the lost coin. These men owe appologies and a change of heart for things and decisions they have made over the years towards many of us.

Will this happen? I very much doubt it. They haven't yet to make a phone call to me except for one staff pastor who felt the need to rebuke me for helping my daughter. And he made the statement that my child was into evil against my ministry. That made me chuckle. my ministry? all of sudden after a year of being gone someone says GG is my ministry.

Oh well. At any rate this man has yet to humble himself and come to me knowing there is ought between us and that he hurt me. Some example of Jesus Christ.

And although I live across the street I get emails from missions and others. Must be hard to cross the street.

I always had this concept that a church is like a family who cared for one another, prayed together, visited and helped the sick in their midst, shared and fellowshipped together. I hope this exists in Florida. I will be very careful before I trust another Christian and that is so sad.

But I will love and share Christ with the hungry and rest and be content where I am at. I have my Bible and it will be God's responsibility to put me in a fellowship. Being bedbound opens your eyes in more ways than I could ever imagine.

And I am content, filled with joy, never lonely because Christ is with me, always believing, always trusting He will bring into my life those of His choosing and until then, and while I wait and after that and during and always I will rest in Him.

(Message edited by mercyreigns on January 12, 2005)

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I'm thinking about how there always were individuals who just made it a point to love others. Their emphasis didn't always center on getting you to line up with the teachings. It wasn't like you could walk around with a sign on your back saying 'I don't buy everything from the pulpit'. If you disagreed, you had to be silent about it. You were beat over the head with the idea that all your activities were supposed to be geared toward 'the Body' and that you should be doctrinally aligned down to the most minute point. You were expected to minister to people only those things you knew were aligned; as if Stevens were in the place the Father had in Jesus' life for your life. A lot of this approach was implied rather than directly stated.

A lot of what was taught was right conceptually, even if some of the terminology was weird or incorrectly defined. For instance, the Thieme teaching on 'Theantric action' that Stevens 'borrowed' was a spiritually accurate thing. Christ does live in us through the Holy Spirit and the Word. But the term is not in the Bible. Some things were definitely wrong teaching; and even good teachings were often used to bind us up in improper fashion or to hide personal sin in the leadership (of which I was not aware until years later).

Whether or not it is labeled as a cult, the leadership was and is abusive. But there also were and are individuals within the system who are Spirit led and live 'accurately' before God. The can doesn't just have worms in it. We should avoid jumping to conclusions about what people are just because of their associations. This is true not only of the 'rank and file', but of pastors also. I really don't think it fair to label all the pastors in GG as 'pretend', though some of them may very well be so. Over the years after the exodus to Baltimore, John Gardner studied and worked at being a real pastor here rather than a puppet. It was a gradual process in which he became better over time until he was so good that it was necessary for Baltimore to find ways to get rid of him.

[mercyreigns (mercyreigns)]

Bob I don't think anyone here is labeling all pastors as pretend.

The grievances are against the Elders who are perfectly aware of what is going on, good and bad.

And there are some precious Spirit filled elders, but they are guilty by association to what they know.

The problem lies within the staff and the elders who are privy to it all.

Many here have admitted that TBS/GG has added to their spiritual walk and we have gotten to know Christ in very deep ways.

We have got to get back to what this is all about. We have gotten off the path.

The Elders and staff are the issue here. The pastors that have been referred to are all staff pastors.

And Bob anything that has been said about a staff pastor has been true. Some have mentioned names, some have chosen not to.

Remember once again why we are here. Because of Stevens, his dictatorship control and the Elders that have allowed it to go on.

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Romans 8:28 (New International Version)
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Good thread Boss!

I am enjoying reading all of your thoughts. I am of course one of the adamant believers of TBS/GGWO being a cult and their leaders/pastors being pretend. I do appreciate that we needed to be part of TBS/GGWO to be what we are today. It is the same as I needed to be backslidden in alcoholism to be what I am today. I was a born again Christian before the cult and during the alcoholism. I am a victim of neither, however, I must have some kind of propensity toward things like TBS/GGWO (I actually thought I found heaven on earth) and excessive drinking (I actually thought I found heaven on earth). Could it have been that I didn’t want to think and feel for myself and be responsible for my own life? I think so. Some of it was the naivete of youth. Every place I have been in my life has helped me grow spiritually with Jesus. It is just when you are in the midst of paying the price for making those wrong decisions, it can be quite painful.

I don’t deny that there were many wonderful Christian folks at TBS/GGWO. I have enjoyed hooking back up with many who I knew from then and meeting some of those I didn’t know. I just believe that the people whose lives were destroyed by this organization whether it was emotionally or financially far outweighs the folks who were able to us it as a Romans 8:28 life experience. Those of us posting here are the lucky ones. We got on with our lives and even a tiny bit of our life now is sharing on Factnet. I hope GGWO goes out of business because it uses evangelical Christianity to abuse Christians. It is the way it has always been since Carl first climbed out the window on the ladder.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

BJ - I agree with you that we should sort through and keep what was good (and much was), but being VERY careful to throw away anything that was not. As another who "came in" in Maine, I think you would agree it was a little different in Lenox. I have always attributed that to the loss of CHS's balance, Barbara. Most of the true craziness began after her death. But things got worse still in Baltimore. The preaching became often tyrannical and vindictive. Most of the current board is new, as many of the ones under the abuse have left. But the new board and current staff, seem to be trying to "shore up" the house of cards.

These, it seems to me, are the things Nancy is addressing. And she is one of the most balanced voices you will hear on here.

Maria - I absolutely apologize! Having left GGWO and having never been a part of Finished work I really had right to comment. Please accept my apology and let's continue to be friends.

BTW, God had me awake at 3am praying for many, including you Maria.

God bless,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[san (san)]

WHEN do you guys sleep!!!
BJ
We have talked so you know how I feel. They were the best years of my life also. But we are not there. We listened to God and discerned that it was off Biblically.. Not all have strong personalities.

I MUST say that I wished TBS was right on, Because I would still be there as you and Mr. would also. I miss the Love, I miss the fellowship of all the wonderful people. I still seach for the Church to fulfill the desire I learned at TBS. We were feed The Meat not the milk of the Word. That is hard to find..

We left 18 to 20 years ago because there were isssues then. Imagine how they must have escalated over the years. Scarey when you think about.

Thsi site has helped me also so many years later.
MY prayers are with all who are experiencing what we went though in 86. You will survive and God will give you all things to succeed.. In time HIS Peace will be with you all.
In His Love
SAN

[minutus (minutus)]

"I still seach for the Church to fulfill the desire I learned at TBS."

I think I know what you mean, San. I miss being challenged to live beyond my own abilities and resources, doing things I never would do on my own. Most churches are just happy if you show up and be nice. After all these years and further biblical education, I still go to church and wonder what's wrong with me, that I want more than that.

[whocaresanymore (whocaresanymore)]

I just want to say again, that I am not saying things have not been done wrong and people should just get over their hurt. Please understand. I can only speak for myself. To me, it is all about God and winning Christ. I think I am capable of doing any thing, including murder, but by the grace of God, I am set free from the bondage of sin. I think some of us are guilty of raising a man up on a pedastol and then getting mad when it got to his head. We are all capable of letting things get to our heads. That is why the Word says knowledge puffeth up. I have seen much of the same arrogance here that I have seen in other places. I have been that arrogant. Now, I just want to win Christ and let His mind be in me. So, I say again, I am not speaking about someone else, but about our own attitudes. Every thought must be brought into captivity. When I say I don't care anymore, I simply mean, I do not want to be apart of things that do not matter. Things such as my own opinion.

[lee (lee)]

Dave, your experience is much the same as ours, however, I am at a place right now that I'm only feeling a sense of that kind of challenge and zest for life outside the church. Kind of scary if you have been a church goer for all of your saved days, and still have a desire to serve Him and grow in Him. I am generally unmoved by any movement in the church.

[maria_t (maria_t)]

BJ and Nancy....thanks for what you posted, I have had to come to terms with how I feel about GGWO actually being a cult or not. All this week in my posts I was calling it one. Thats not what the Holy Spirit was speaking to my heart, however. Pretty much what both of you posted is close to what I see in the spirit.

Cultic tendencies, abusive controlling leadership, unbiblical doctrines, outright lies and sneaky, deceitful things done and hidden, character malignings, mismanagement of money, favortism for those of financial means, cliques, elitist attitudes, and so on.

Boss, I know you are hurting too, your attempts to get your friend out of GGWO have not yet suceeded.
You have a lot of anger in regards to Carl Stevens which is evident by your posts. You don't see the good God has allowed to happen over the years many of us were in that church body. Perhaps its because you never went there. Like BJ said, there were a lot of good things that went on there too. There were a lot of spirit filled godly people in that church as well as those that were led by a ring thru the nose via CHS's hands.

You posted about the church growing over the years and I wanted to share my thoughts on that as well, Boss. It is true, a lot of salvations occurred over the last 20 years. They were led to Christ by innocent victims of the ministry -- innocent of what CHS was doing and his motives. Those people went soulwinning to lead people to the Lord, not to raise the church membership list. Their hearts were pure and their intentions were right...and God honored that, and people did get saved. People didn't get saved unto Carl Stevens, they were led to Jesus Christ. The mix up came with the "discipleship" unto Carl Stevens and not the Lord, which was very sad. People learned quickly how to follow the leader based on the examples they saw once they came out to services and raps. As baby christians, many put their stake in him, their pastor, as being the only person who could "hear" God. However, the word of God teaches against that very thing and they chose to follow after a man. They chose to elevate him as the key person in their lives instead of the Lord. Did God allow this? Was this part of His Plan? Sounds like a cruel God doesn't it, but the truth is, He did allow it to happen. He is still allowing it to happen. Man has a free will, Boss.
Its up to each one of us to choose "life." I know God allowed me to be there for 14 years. I experienced some of the most amazing growth in the Lord during that time. If I hadn't gone thru the trials I went through while I was there, I wouldn't have come to a place to where I can totally depend upon God. Yes, He did allow it.
Yes, it was part of His plan for me to be there, and then for me to leave there. I didn't "follow" Nancy out...I left weeks before she did. She didn't follow me, actually she didn't know that I had made my mind up that I was never going back there at all. I remember the night she came home from a sunday night service and said to me that lately she felt like she hadn't been getting fed at church. She then said she was praying about leaving there and I still kept silent. Until the situation I wrote about on the "Lewdass is history" thread came to a peak, there was a possibility of our going back. Not now. Not ever.
I will never forget the damage done to our characters. Those things people don't forget.

However, Boss, I do admire your zeal in wanting something done, but as your friend I ask you to not put God in a box. I'm not going to get on your back for saying you think the church is a cult, or Louise's, or anyone else's because that is your right to think and believe as you want, just as its my right to hang onto that hope that God can do anything...anything!!!

Of course I pray your friend will leave as I pray my friends will leave also, especially the Marrs.
I have been blasted at the church for taking a stand, and here on Factnet for taking a stand. The bottom line is this. I want God's will to be done. Not mine. In my flesh, oh yeah do I want them to pay for what they've done. However, God looks upon the sin as being evil and against him, NOT the sinner. He may never do one single thing to Carl Stevens in the way of judgement if people's hearts are already judging and condemning him. You know now that I am not sticking up for that man whatsoever. But Gods word does tell us that if we judge, we will reap the judgement due to that person. I wouldn't want that added to my plate I've already got enough on it to eat for a lifetime.

Love ya
Maria

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Boss,
You posted another point that I wanted to talk to you about as a friend...

"My feeling is that this is another facet of the GGWO experience that keeps Carl's power intact. "God must have led me there for a purpose!" If it were God's will for people to get involved in a cult, then I guess it's God's will for people to get sick and die slowly, it's God's will that children get molested, it was God's will for the tsunami to strike, etc. How did the tsunami fit into God's will? When is something NOT God's
will?"

There is a verse in the bible and oh my gosh it used to infuriate me Boss..."ALL THINGS ARE FOR OUR SAKES..."

It used to make me so stinking mad at God!! Why God. WHY!!!! Why did this happen. Why did that happen. Why are children molested? Why do they give handguns to kids? Why is there so much drug abuse among teens/adults? Why as a nurse do I have this desire to fix things and I can't fix them??? Why the car accidents? Child abuse? Rapes and sexual assaults? Pornography? House fires? Murders? Abortions? Suicides? the Holocaust? Hitler? Pastors that are Spiritual Rapists? WHY, GOD, WHY!!!

You can torture yourself emotionally to death over these things. I will never forget the day the Holy Spirit showed me that verse.

2 Cor. 4:15 states: "For all things are for your sakes that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God."

Truly it is so that God may receive glory from us thru our trials, and the trials we share with others. So we will look to Him as our source of everything, knowing that His plans for our lives are perfect...

Another area I know that angers you, Boss, and it angers me too is when CHS said that people leaving his church will have "cancers, accidents...etc."
When I tried to leave in 1995 I had Ovarian Cancer. In 1997 I had a breast tumor. Again, in 1999...I had a car accident. In 2000 my brother got Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma (a form of cancer). Again, In 2004...my sister got Colon Cancer stage 3. I would be locked up by now, in a psych hospital in a straight-jacket if I truly bought that bullcrap line of his about people "getting these cursed things" if they left the ministry.
I remember one time Pastor Palmer told me after I got cancer it was because I had rebelled against delegated authority because I refused to do something he wanted me to do that I did not have a witness about in the Holy Spirit.

I'm living and breathing and well today, Boss. Is my health perfect? Nope. Is it because of CHS? Nope. Did God allow those things/trails to come my way? Yes, He did. For His glory. Each one of those trials above mentioned has a beautiful testimony behind it, giving only the Lord the credit due. It strengthened me spiritually. I grew learning to trust him over and over.

I love ya Boss, we've gotten to be good friends. Just showing you my side of the story. Not attacking you in any way.

Love Maria

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Maria,

Very well stated, on both posts.

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[boss_martian (boss_martian)]

Maria,

Thank you for your thoughtful posts.

Believe it or not, I agree with most of what you have written. To me, it's either ALL part of God's plan or NONE of it is. Let me explain.

I believe that God has given us free will and discernment. Whatever we do with those gifts is up to us and we suffer the consequences.

What I was trying to address with my post is an aspect of the defense of GGWO. There are certain people here that don't want to admit that GGWO is bad (or a cult) because "GOD LED ME THERE"! If God led you there, how can you possible say anything bad about Carl and GGWO? Because if you do that, you're criticizing God (or so that logic goes).

I cherish free will. My will would not be free, however, if I weren't free to "mess up" and suffer the consequences. As far as stuff like the tsunami is concerned, I firmly believe it is part of God's plan, whether I understand it or not. GGWO is a great example of one person leading a lot of people in a "messed up" way. Period. This I can understand. Sure GGWO is part of God's plan. Just like a tsunami. Carl could have exercised his free will and discernment to do the right thing instead of something evil. People will have to use their discernment and free will to get out of GGWO. I don't curse God for GGWO nor do I curse God for the tsunami. Nor do I minimize the negative aspects of each with a cursory "well, it's God's plan." I hope you wouldn't attempt to comfort someone who has lost a loved one in the tsunami or 9/11, or a car wreck with "what are you whining about, it was God's plan!"

No, I don't curse God for GGWO, I hold Carl Stevens and his enablers responsible.

The excuse "God led me there" or "it just must be God's plan" instead of owning up to responsibility is a poor excuse.

When I was in the Air Force, we had a unit Dining Out (a formal military dinner) and the the guest speaker was a former Luftwaffe pilot from WWII. He had been shot down by British planes during an anti-shipping mission and taken to a POW camp in Texas. He eventually ended up living in the UK. He told us the story of his WWII experieces. He had been a patriotic German, although he was not a Nazi party member. He had friends he loved in the German military. He had both good and bad experiences.

I believe his story.

Not one word of his story changes my feelings on Adolph Hitler or the Nazi party.

I believe that not all of your experiences at GGWO were terrible. Not many people would stay that long if it was 100% terrible. It's just that none of it changes how I feel about GGWO.

Much love to you, Maria.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Boss,

And as one of the past enablers, I say amen to your post.

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[karen (karen)]

Boss,

It was an amazing revelation for me when God showed me that just because He leads me to a place, it is not a blanket endorsement. I believe it was God's will that I become a part of TBS so many years ago, because He wanted to teach me some things and it was an appropriate environment for those lessons. In truth, I don't feel any guilt for joining; I was a brand new Christian and like a baby, completely dependent on God to show me where He wanted me to be. Later on I grew in knowledge and discernment and only then was I accountable for my decision to stay or leave.

I do remember being perplexed when I first saw God standing, so to speak, outside TBS beckoning me to follow. I decided to trust Him.

-Karen

[helenaofmass (helenaofmass)]

Ecellent post Boss. Thank you, I think that was a perfect assessment. Something to think about when in the future we make judgments.

In His Peace,

Helena

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

So well said Karen. The path is defined for us as we go. 'God standing' reminds me of Steven and the gnashing of teeth. We might not look 'good' as we obey the voice we hear.

[boddah (boddah)]

hi guys, merry christmas and happy new year!

bob:
your comment is linked to society's definitions of insanity. reminds me of the phrase "different drummer:" sometimes a compliment, sometimes a euphemism for "substandard" intelligence.

the briefcase zombies make it hard to live in the world if you're not their kind. but often it seems to me it's the "screwed up" people who have the potential to graffiti (verb?) the status quo, bring personal color to what we call fact.
the words may be few and strange, but if they break from social jargon... with patience, discernment, and willingness to listen, mindblowing things can be found in screwups who don't sound or look like someone the gap ads tell us we can trust. they might not have money for a manicure, even for housing.
before turning away in discomfort, it's worth it to consider the value of "weird" people. you never know, someone else might see you as belonging in the weird realm!


there's also the issue of individual, subconscious p.r. filters we put on our lives and language just because we happen to live in this place and time. those filters can make insanity seem sane, or different seem crazy. but these filters we don't choose. even if we don't bow to the zombies, their filters have been sliding over our eyes since conception. the words of the weird must at least be tinted by them. it's just the way that people raised in the pop media's eyes learn to process input.
a light filter is a fact of life, but even thick ones can be chipped away quite a bit once they're discovered.

so, the propriety of any Plan, Path, or Art is relative. don't believe everything you hear, but it's great look for meaning in places you haven't looked before...

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Boddah; I've been waiting for you to get back. How was your 'break'? Did the cats help shield you with their beautiful independence? Finding favor with cats is one of the great luxuries of life.

I am happy to be considered insane by 'normal' people. Normality is its own kind of insanity. It's devolution. God made us as individuals and we try not to be; always imitating something or someone; always concerned with how some herd or other views us, how we 'line up'.

Pay attention to postings by Heroyalhighness. It's Alana Olivadoti. She's around my age, but thinks beyond the box.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Boddah,

You slip in under the radar and after 1 am but your return did not go unnoticed! Welcome back our Boddah, we missed you!

Your thought provoking insights are music to my ears("ear muffs of life" removed of course)

[boddah (boddah)]

hey bob, jeannie (and everybody here):
how were your holidays?

bob:
one who gets "normality" right (and doesn't go for "normalcy") is the standard of sane. i decided this some time ago, and generally it works...
what keeps us always looking for a place in the herd is fear, and the desire to be loved by others who might not appreciate us as we are. if you can just give up the difficult decisions and accept groupthink as love and belonging-- it's like a drug, no? (remind you of any particular church?)

jeannie:
your fairy wings never rest, they just sprinkle golden dust all day as far as i can tell..


anyway, break was ok, glad to be home. made hot chocolate with actual ingredients instead of mix; watched movies from the library (importance of being earnest, carrie, adventures in babysitting, may); saw my parents' new place. they moved into half of a pretty house built in the 1800's, original woodwork etc., and they pay half of what we pay for a one bedroom in chicago!
mom and dad were glad to see us/ weighed down by holiday expectation, so we had the usual fun/arguments. i felt much better this year than last, i'm thinking because of the therapy etc. it's inside myself that i had to be able to shut the anger out, and i managed fairly well until the last day or so. convenient timing! http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif

the cats.
actually, in the beginning our cats were completely freaked out-- like, fur twice its usual size, eyes ablaze, claws slashing randomly, hissing and spitting, clinging to the carpet under the bed freaked out. it was because they could tell my mom's cats were just outside the door. they settled down after a few days and were on guard but calm until we brought out the carriers again, at which point they fled right back into their favorite small, dark holes. but in the middle there, there were a few days of sleepy little faces on the bed when we got home, so you tell me: was it worth it? (of course it was.)

it's like 11 degrees here but the city doesn't collect much snow buildup (so far,) whereas at my parents' we were actually snowed in for a day. here we've actually got beautiful blue skies, which you can look at if you wrap yourself in clothing until you resemble a bison.
started school again this past monday, after spending my last week of vacation reading novels in my pj's. of course, i did make a daily pilgrimage to the starbucks in the bottom of our building...
now it's back to the old grind, but i do feel rested.

gotta go eat dan's tarragon chicken before he beats the computer with a large stick. since it's just got fixed, i won't take a chance!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Hi Boddah, I got a week break from work, and got a decent rest from both the physical stress and the chaos and general pressure. We hit some financial black ice, but I got to write a lot of long emails, though the last couple of days I wasn't hearing from anyone.

About a year and a half ago, my employer and his wife got the nutty idea of renovating the top of the buikding to live in; so now they sort of treat the working part of the building as part of their house. I don't know if I could have taken this back in the days when I was claustrophobic; but I manage now. I still kind of find it 'offensive', as if my personal space is being invaded. I like to get to work early and sit and pray with most of the lights off and sort of get more gradually acclimated to being there. But they often come down and turn on all the lights and sometimes talk or turn on awful music on the radio. They also tend to enter into a flurry of activity and noise during my lunch break. They do have a nice dog and two cats. The nineten year old cat has a gentle personality and tends to crap in our color mixer's room near the chair where he eats lunch (which gives him great joy, as you can imagine). The other cat likes tough love (strong aggressive attention) and will often insist on being picked up, but she also will attack you for no reason at all. I think they must have given her some kind of strong drug or something at some point. But she sure is interesting.

[yogi (yogi)]

I'd like to share this e-mail from friends with the Catholic church who were having a prayer summit this weekend...

"Sunday afternoon, when we were praying in the chapel and Mark spoke about the need for repentance, the Lord gave me this vision:

I closed my eyes and saw the United States, in map form, with lines dividing the states, the
counties, the cities, etc. When individual prayers of repentance started to take place, I
saw drops of water coming down on the map. The water blotted out the lines, drop by drop. The more we prayed, the more water came and covered the map. I heard the Holy Spirit say that these lines are symbolic of the division in our hearts and in our land. And the tears of repentance are the only way we can bring about unity. Then, when we started to pray for South America, I saw the same thing begin to happen. All the lines of division disappeared. Then I saw Asia, Africa, Europe and the whole earth was being covered by these tears until the entire globe was covered with water. I questioned the Lord because there was only water. Then the Lord spoke and said that this was the Ocean of His Mercy and that the more tears of repentance are shed, the broader and the deeper the ocean of His Mercy, will immerse the entire world. And the more mercy we receive from Him, the more we can give to others. And when we pray, with repentance and His mercy in our hearts, our prayers will be answered. Division will be no more.

IF MY PEOPLE, WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME, WILL HUMBLE THEMSELVES AND PRAY AND SEEK MY FACE AND TURN FROM THEIR WICKED WAYS, THEN WILL I HEAR FROM HEAVEN AND WILL FORGIVE THEIR SIN AND WILL HEAL THEIR LAND.

(2 CHRONICLES 7:14)."

[isabella (isabella)]

YES!

[boddah (boddah)]

hi bob:

first, i give obeisance to starbucks for their triple grande latte, without which i would have my head under the covers right now...
sorry it took so long for me to respond to your post. school started again, and the beauty thread discussion started again, so between those and the rest of life my hands were full.

sounds like a nightmare to have the boss's fam live in your building. it was a little like that at the ggca in budapest. the lange family (3 kids) and a bunch of single gentlemen lived in the school, which was originally built as a training camp for hungarian olympic athletes, and so had individual bathrooms all over the place. so, the "pitter patter" of elephantine feet upstairs and the yawning of messy sleepy mission dudes in the halls. the cafeteria serving as house kitchen (fingers in the jelly) and as institutional food preparation central. best to avert your eyes if you're a stickler for hygeine. eventually they all moved out and we started getting hungarian school lunches delivered (there's a national program, everyone gets the same thing.) hooray.
on the other hand, if you've got pets there...

i know what you mean about the tough love cat! one of our cats, maddy, is similar. she'll purr all around and let you pet her for a specific amount of time before she hisses and swipes. if you watch her tail you can predict the change in time, but dan has yet to develop that skill.
our other cat, jake, is just a big lump o' puddin.' i'm pretty sure he'd let us use him for a football, then roll over for a tummy rub.
my cat when i lived in baltimore was also quite feisty. i was the only one she'd allow to pick her up at all, and even then, when she played rough she went for the jugular. she was a great cat.

do you know of any good books which, based on our previous discussions, i might like? preferably nothing too dense, since the idea is to relax? http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif
i finished the pile by my bed over break and am now flapping in the literary wind...

good to talk to you here. i've been feeling really sad the past few days. total breakdown in therapy on tuesday, regarding my father, and eschatology. minor cuts. sort of emotionally limping around since then. got all my work done, though, of which i am very proud.

sorry if this is too much information. talk to you soon, eh?

[anon_for_ever (anon_for_ever)]

Sorry I come in the middle of your discussion, but I've recently read many books written by J M Coetzee (Nobel prize winner 2003). He surely has a talent to describe a life of an outsider, outsider in this world and its structures. You can apply it to any power structure, even church.

I'm sure you would enjoy books like Waiting for the Barbarians, Life and Times of Michael K, Boyhood, Youth. The last two tell about his own life and how he became a writer. He has written many other books, too, but these I think are the best. Well, In the heart of the country and Disgrace are also good.

After reading the Barbarians I started to understand how prejudice is built in us and why there are wars.

[boddah (boddah)]

thanks, anon!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I like Patricia McKillip. There's a lot of mystique, and her women characters have depth to them. They remain interesting. The lines between good and evil are not black and white. Douglas Adams is good if you want something crazy. He made me laugh when my whole life was a hurt. And P.K.Dick writes things that disturb and have seedy elements. He shows compassion for artificial life forms. I like that. His settings are future, but feel real and down to earth. You ever wonder how you can go through months in Middle Earth without one of the characters ever having to go to the bathroom? Not that I remember Dick writing about that. I think I'm about ready for a nap; or at least a shower. At some future point, I will return.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Boddah,

I was there when the lunches were started, brought in these big metal containers. I helped serve and we would peer and say"do you think is the dessert or the main course? I remember sugar coated noodles for dessert and stomach lining soup.. yumm

[yogi (yogi)]

Who's stomach lining? A description of your tummy, which was upset from eating native dishes, or a cow's, which you were ingesting?
UGH!

Yogi

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

We would all line up for meals, around the whole perimeter of the cafeteria. Then they would yell, we can start feeding you, but we need 1 more server. Again, I still have nightmares of standing in that line LOL.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Yogi, It was cow's stomach lining soup...lol

[boddah (boddah)]

bjewrwin:

do you really have nightmares about the cafeteria in mass? i do...

there's no room at the tables, or no one to sit by, or it's liver, or the line is so long it goes out the door. sometimes i get up there and the people behind the sneezeguard won't give me any food, and sometimes i'm afraid to ask for it, so i leave.
usually i just give up (in the dream) and eat a banana.


jeannie:

my personal "favorite" was the viscous spinach soup with the broth like mucus, and a boiled egg on top.
they made fine bread though, those people, so in a pinch three pieces of bread and a soda from the machine would do!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I used to read while I was waiting in those lines, BJ. I'd even read while I was walking up Kemble Street. People must have thought I was nuts. One semester I took 20 credits and read Frank Herbert's Dune Trilogy while I did it. I got good grades, too. I can't remember if Dune was as interesting as the courses I took. After that semester, you had to pay extra if you took more than 12 credits, which was a full load. Had to work then also. I was married, too. Mary was kept quite busy typing out forms and putting booklets together. I can't remember if we were still singing at that point, but we may have been. I think Barils were still around.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I remember hating both liver and brussel sprouts. Still do. Yechh!! I also remember some jerk that was serving trying to convince people that sugar was evil. This while we were always stopping at MacDonald's on blitzes. Eventually I couldn't digest MacDonald's food anymore. It would make me ill. But it was all for Jesus. Hallelujah! Give me a bottle of decent wine and a steak.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

I still have freakin nightmares about Sunda nite supper....

the grossest lentil coup on the planet....it always tasted like it hate dirt in it, and it made people fart in church.

The farting in church part was the only fun part about it.

[whitehorses (whitehorses)]

on the good side of the food chain.. does anyone remember danny quirks pizza and anakin sandwiches at folkine?

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Yeah Margo. Those were amazing. But you did have to pay for them. Maybe he'll have one of those sandwiches ready for us when we get kicked upstairs. We could eat it in the waiting room at the beamerrrr seat.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Or is it the Bee Myrrh Seat?

[boddah (boddah)]

the cafe pizza was really good, as was the student union black forest cake.
as i recall, the hot dogs and beans was (were? i'm counting it as one dish) a running joke in my fourth grade class.

speaking of steak, bob, i remember one time my mom prayed over the shepherd's pie, asking that it taste "just like steak!"

beamerrrr sounds like how a sheep would say it, and bee myrrh sounds like something from Harry Potter (a la diagon alley and knockturn alley.)

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Lee dorm:

I didn't want to move in there, husband insisted. I hated it. We all had chores assigned. I was to make breakfast on Sunday mornings. Another woman, big and mean, was my breakfast making partner. She had some sort of delegated authority thing going on. She bossed me around that kitchen like a stinkin' nazi. I was to make the bacon, which we lined up on these huge metal trays and baked. I was pregnant and the smell of bacon made me so sick and the trays were heavy, especially when you were trying to balance them as they brimmed with grease. It was hell. I know about nightmares Boddah because I lived them.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I remember sitting with my wife Mary (we might not have been married yet) across from my brother David. He decided to see what would happen if he just kept twisting one of those little plastic bags of ketchup they had. It ended up all over Mary. David was so embarrassed. I can't remember how she took it then, but it's lived on as a funny memory for the years since.

[lee (lee)]

gee Jeannie, I thought I'd successfully put all memories of Lee dorm into the deep recesses of my mind, never to be dredged up! I only want to remember the good stuff, like us women sweeping 6 " of water out the doors cause the place was so leaky and would flood, or the mushrooms that would grow on the walls.

Or how about the time when it was just for men and the big guys called and told us to watch out for a young man that had 'problems' with babies......our Joe was an infant, sleeping under our loft bed. It's a good thing I awoke early cause when I looked over the edge , there was a very strange boy in our room gazing into the crib......at least they got rid of him then.

Honestly, this was worse than growing up in the projects! Its one of the experiences I've had that made me wonder why I was letting myself be put into a place like this. Was it for God, or was I letting myself be used? What the hell was I being trained for? I never found out.....maybe I can join the reprobate club.
Or maybe I was just an afron.

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Lee, I bet you would have picked the phantom too over that weenie boy in Phantom of the Opera?

I think we went through all that to make us REALLY WANT TO GO TO HEAVEN cuz we had lived in the bowels already.

I lived on the 3rd floor of Fokine in one room when I was pregnant with my first. It was the only pregnancy I was constantly nauseated due to the smell of pizza sauce from the restaurant below. But truly you Lee Dorm girls win the prize for endurance. Sounds like a nightmare!

Aren't there crowns in heaven for that? or was that false doctrine too?

[lee (lee)]

If there is, BJ, then we'll all be aglitter!!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

These crowns are made for throwin', and that's just what we'll do. One of these days we'll throw them down, right in front of You.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Can't you just hear Job saying, "Lord, look at all the things I've done. Aren't you impressed? It's payback time!" NOT.

[boddah (boddah)]

our family used to live in lawrence hall. a friend of mine went back to lenox on vacation (also to niagra falls) and she says the shakespeare troupe or whoever they are have kept up the old chapel, the library, and lawrence hall.

she said it was spooky, she used to live there too and the whole campus was all overgrown and boarded up-- then she saw that repainted, lived-in lawrence hall. kind of like the overlook in the shining, flourishing by itself on ghost power.

[karen (karen)]

Too funny. In another post, I referred to the dorm as St. Lawrence instead of Lawrence Hall. Must be the melding of the St. Martin's dorm and the St. Lawrence Seaway in my corrupted memory.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Boddah,

My son Mike and his wife Heather went up to check out the old "compound" while we were visiting family in Massachusetts for Thanksgiving. They had the same impression..eery and oh so small, as he remembered as a child. The old day school building was actually open and he explored the inside. They felt it was cathartic to walk around the empty compound, as it lay in ruin. It felt like the compound had not conquered them, but they the compound.

[karen (karen)]

I have visited the Lenox campus from time to time over the years. The decay of the grounds and buildings has reminded me of the Sleeping Beauty fairy tale. I always hoped something would breathe new life into them. So many significant moments of my life took place there--standing on the edge of the property is the closest I've come to a haunting.

[boddah (boddah)]

small!
my friend said that the gigantic grassy field by the playground, where we all used to play capture the flag, was this little patch of grass and bushes. i remember it almost as a separate country, with so many different distinct areas, places to hide. we could run to the far side and lose sight of the school entirely.
patch of grass and bushes.

i'd love to go inside the old school building again. i remember clear details, like exactly how the paper cutter looked and sounded, and the flagpole out front. and the box in the attic full of those eraser pencils that you unwrap by pulling the string? i remember the boiler room where my second grade teacher confronted us about eating the oatmeal cookie out of his lunch. he was really pretty good about it-- but we were just terrified and crying in this dark, filthy, hot boiler room, confronting our shame.
i was afraid i was going to hell. last time we stole cookies.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Karen,

I know what you mean about the "sleeping castle" in the Sleeping Beauty. Maybe this community here is similar to the prince's kiss that broke the curse? It is something of a fairy tale. isn't it? All of us were cursed to outer darkness of the discredited, slandered and shunned forever. It was like we were all asleep or least gone away but.. here we are! Caring, connecting, supporting each other and very much alive!

[ethelmertz (ethelmertz)]

Sunday nite suppers were the worst. Mystery meat with Roman meal bread. I don't remember anything being good. Folkine was a good place to eat though. (when I could afford it)

does anyone remember having to do "guard duty" in the dorms during service nights? There was a problem with the kids from town coming into the dorms so we had to be assigned duty. I volunteered alot...that got me out of going to the services.

[karen (karen)]

Yes, Jeannie, the curse is broken. But the evil one is always the last to figure it out...

Ethel--I knew about guard duty in the dorms, but I thought that was to ensure EVERYBODY went to service.

[ethelmertz (ethelmertz)]

Karen - evidently there was a problem with kids running thru the dorms and stealing...that was what I was told anyway. It was alittle spooky being there and hoping that no one would come in and run around!

[ethelmertz (ethelmertz)]

Karen we must of been in Lenox at the same time? I arrived Jan 78 and left Spring of 81 I think it was.

[karen (karen)]

Ethel, I arrived in Lenox in Aug. of '80 and left the ministry in June '88. Did you live on campus? Here's my e-mail address in case you want to communicate privately: duhamelkm at comcast dot net. BTW-my birth name was Karen Sanders. Ring any bells?

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Boddah,

I remember Mike in kindergarten got in trouble because he and Thad Guarino decided to hide in a tree and see what happens if they didn't go in when the bell rang. It seemed like such a big deal back then to be deliberately disobedient. By the end of the year Mike won the Good Samaritan award for pulling Heather Glidden out of a mud puddle someone pushed her in. What a change it was to later live in Budapest as a teen and experience all that freedom!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I thought the whole reason for that dorm guard thing was so Galen Knowles could hang out and watch the football games.

Thaddeus got my son Dan in serious trouble once by kicking him. Dan turned around and nailed him. As I recall, they both got suspended. John Gibbons told Mary and I that he would have told his own kids to defend themselves in such a case, but that 'we' had to have school policy. Whatever...

[yogi (yogi)]

<font size="-2">I still have freakin nightmares about Sunda nite supper....

the grossest lentil coup on the planet....it always tasted like it hate dirt in it, and it made people fart in church.

The farting in church part was the only fun part about it.</font>}

RJ, This must be the "sometimes" humorous situation Dianne Ackley was writing about! LOL

Yogi

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

More Lee dorm memories,,,,

Remember when CHS would stay in town on Sunday mornings? The switchboard would call all the dorms and tell them to make sure everyone knew that "pastor" was staying in town and would be speaking. I remember my Adam would say, "Right!" And I would pack up Kathleen and the children, without saying a word to anyone, and go to Church.

Remember on Sunday night the "sleeper inners" would be blasted by CHS? Sorry, but I got a preverse feeling of satisfaction over that. But it was funny to me.

Mind you, I still would not wake anyone up from sleep to go, that is their choice. But I would no longer feel the exileration when you got blasted. (LOL)

Be blessed,

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[boddah (boddah)]

i frequently remember hearing the stevens family song "excuses" in the old chapel... first i enjoyed the song, and felt relief knowing i was off the hook because i was in church. then my stomach would drop when i thought, what if one day that's me? i could see myself in the cold, looking through the window at the warm cheerful stevens family, knowing that the devil got me in the end when i didn't expect it. this happened every single time i heard the song.
i was like six at the time. ay yi yi.

[churchgrowth]

And these are the generations of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham, and Japheth; and to them were sons born after the flood. 2 The sons of Japheth: Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras. 3 And the sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. 4 And the sons of Javan: Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. 5 From these came the distribution of the isles of the nations, according to their lands, every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. 6 And the sons of Ham: Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan. 7 And the sons of Cush: Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtecha. And the sons of Raamah: Sheba and Dedan. 8 And Cush begot Nimrod: he began to be mighty on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before Jehovah; therefore it is said, As Nimrod, the mighty hunter before Jehovah! 10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land went out Asshur, and built Nineveh, and Rehoboth-Ir, and Calah, 12 and Resen, between Nineveh and Calah: this is the great city. 13 -- And Mizraim begot the Ludim, and the Anamim, and the Lehabim, and the Naphtuhim, 14 and the Pathrusim, and the Casluhim, out of whom came the Philistines, and the Caphtorim. 15 -- And Canaan begot Sidon, his firstborn, and Heth, 16 and the Jebusite, and the Amorite, and the Girga****e, 17 and the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite, 18 and the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite. And afterwards the families of the Canaanites spread themselves abroad. 19 And the border of the Canaanite was from Sidon, as one goes to Gerar, up to Gazah; as one goes to Sodom, and Gomorrah, and Admah, and Zeboim, up to Lesha. 20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tongues, in their lands, in their nations. 21 And to Shem -- to him also were [sons] born; he is the father of all the sons of Eber, the brother of Japheth the elder. 22 The sons of Shem: Elam, and Asshur, and Arphaxad, and Lud, and Aram. 23 And the sons of Aram: Uz, and Hul, and Gether, and Mash. 24 -- And Arphaxad begot Shelah; and Shelah begot Eber. 25 And to Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg, for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan. 26 And Joktan begot Almodad, and Sheleph, and Hazarmaveth, and Jerah, 27 and Hadoram, and Uzal, and Diklah, 28 and Obal, and Abimael, and Sheba, 29 and Ophir, and Havilah, and Jobab: all these were sons of Joktan

[sidethorn]

Hey Churchgrowth, do you have any comments to say that are your own, or do you just want to take up space here like Countdown does? Are you Countdown by the way?? Are you one of those Scripture posters from a number of months ago??? If you only want to post Scripture, we do have Bibles of our own and know how to read them for ourselves without the need to consult a GGWO pastor/teacher to do all the thinking and interpretation for us. Just posting Scripture here is pointless and will only solidify our resolve to tear down the GGWO cult even more. GGWO's reputation (what's left of it!) will only get eroded even more if you continue this childish behavior. So please grow up and share you own thoughts so we all can have some meaningful discussion here!!!!!

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
This person doesn't know the ways of the Lord.
They are most likely a GGWO lacky attempting to be disruptive which is really quite devilish and has zero to do with obeying God.

IGNORE,WILL ROBINSON,IGNORE!



</font>}

[sidethorn]

Right on Dave. This person would do well to start reading and studying God's Word for themself instead of just copying God's Word onto message boards in an attempt to be disruptive.