Stevenstown

[lee (lee)]

Whats it like for all those who suddenly have been awakened from their bible study and soulwinning activities? They must be very confused and bewildered to say the least!
A few, are leaving altogether, but I think a great majority must have to make a decision between Daddy's church, or son Paul, or son Steve's church.

They have never known by example how to handle such gross sin in their church. I'm sure they've read about it in their bibles, but have they ever practiced it?

Can we use this thread to give some encouragement or enlightening questions for a person to ask that has just seen a 3-way split in their church? It might help them make a decision about where they belong. It might help them see the 'cult' within what they call a church.

[forte (forte)]

4 way split. There's Stenger. Wow, Lee. You don't give them any credit for being thinking people.
Has anyone ever known by example how to handle such gross sin in their church?
"...A place where there isn't any trouble. Do you suppose there is such a place Toto? There must be. It's not a place you can get to by a boat or a train. It's far, far away. Behind the moon, beyond the rain."

[lee (lee)]

Forte, I have definitely been in a place that has succesfully dealt with sin in the camp. I know of others as well. Thats my point, forte, there are some, still left unawares of what is happening. Their thinking is along the lines of what they have been told to think. In that realm, there has been nothing to guide them along the disappointing and difficult road of getting removed from sin. As I said above, they have never seen it practiced in their church. I'm not surprised, Forte, that it sounds like a fantasy to you. If you've never seen it happen and been included in it, it would seem far fetched.

I'm sorry about that Forte, but there is still an opportunity here. I don't want those still unaware to miss it.

There have been many on the exit ramp. FN and personal relationships with others, as well as their own developing relationship with God is helping them, but, there is still a group not knowing what to do.

The new churches may be just the thing for them. They may develop completely free of the old, destructive teachings and practices, but they will be tested. Will those that flock to them, with their current mode of thinking be able to withstand? Will they be free to question? Will they be included in the direction the church will go? Can they grow there?

[forte (forte)]

Actually, Lee, I have tried to talk to a few friends there and have been flatly told that they didn't want to know anything. Although, one is still trying to figure out where they stand with things. Some are afraid to ask questions but the majority of those staying are deeply ensconced in the "don’t tell me, it's not my business, I don’t want to know" mentality. I, personally, have seen it AND have been involved in it and have been actively grieving for a long time as more things surfaced.

Just so you know, it’s not a fantasy to me. I’m still dealing with many things and SOME folks really are on the up and up and when the crap started to surface they dealt with it in their hearts right away and knew what to do. Doesn’t mean we aren’t still grieving. That’ll take a while.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Forte,

I agree that are quite a few who recently left are in the old GG mode of the "no talking rule." As you have inferred in past posts I don't agree with that rule. I don't think one can truly deal with the future in a healthy way without examining the past which delivers us into the future.

Is sounds like you are working through this yourself. It is painful but necessary. A couple of my dearest friends go to Steve's church now. I am glad they are out but I hope they process this with honesty.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

forte,
Your words confuse me. It sounds like you support Lee's message but the Wizard of Qz stuff sounds like you do not. What is it you mean?

It disturbs me everyday, what was happening all around me in Baltimore that I denied out of a terrifying, stark emotional fear.

I am not sure Lee that questions woould enlighten anyone in that condition. Not unless in their hearts they have already begune to leave....

For myself, I think it took God using my love for my mother to get away and in that "Physical" separation, away from the haze of the corporate machine and daily mantras, it became obvious to me how shallow, how unsubstantial and dangerous things were.

It devastated me to see these things, it still is
troubling in many ways. There are days I have to shelve the thoughts that upset me or I lose any motivation for the day.
The depression can be overwhelming as you and Jack have been privy to.

It is insidious that a cult like this can teach and warn about other cults while giving the impression that they adhere to the tenets of true Christianity. Just another fear tactic, we have the corner on truth everything else is inferior or "off", so ridiculous and yet many of us bought it wholesale. Or statements like "we thank God for every pastor and church out there",,,,but no one has the body life that we have and if you want the fullness of Christ it is in the body"

Ball and chains, a little truth wrapped in falsehood.

Circular reasoning is called that because it keeps you going in circles, you never get off the loop....over and over and nothing changes...

There is just enough of a veneer of something people crave to keep many hooked. This applies to more than cults, bad marriages, drugs, friendships that are destructive.

It isn't the result of a rational thought process, it is an emotional habit.

So I think it would be hard to question from the outside because the orientation is there to distrust someone who has left or is not a part of the ministry. Heck we didn't even trust each other when we were "on". Our inner world remained hidden from dialogue or expression. We were affected in our speech to fit in. Such a contrived way to live, not like the lilies of the field that's for sure.

Maybe, hopefully now though, Lee, things are being shaken enough that some might be able to actulally "decide" to leave.

I do not think leaving in and of itself will automatically enable them to see where they should go from there, or where they belong, but it is a start.

I still have no idea, except to enter into friendships and talk things out with folks like you, and hope that something takes form.

Christ took the form of a human being, maybe that should be our aim too, just to be human beings who recognise a loving soveriegn creator. Just a thought.

But I walk in trepidation.

I always wonder "What the hell was wrong with me that I discounted my own sensabilities for so long?" That I would erase myself for this little group of people.
It makes me ill and I want to escape the pain of all the things see. I thought I had to face it, get to the root of things but now I am not sure. Maybe just moving on is the best cure? Maybe the realisation that I could never return to Chrchianity is the only safeguard I need?

Still searching here in Boston.
Very grateful you all are searching to in one way or another.

Pray factnet family that a "life" is out there with my name on it. I can't even blame ggwo for anything, it doesn't help evem if it is true.
I've been out 5 years,(physically) and still am in a state of flux.

I only know I could never go back and I pray there is a reason for me to be on this earth beyond mere survival because that won't hold water very long for me.

Maybe someone will just read this and see the questions we asked ourselves and were too afraid to share.

Maybe, hopefully, that internal questioning process will start and it will become so conflicting to be in the ministry they will have to leave. It is a scary thing when it is all you have known but I will tell you, if this is getting to you, nothing is worth living a lie. If you think warming a seat in that plaza is all God hopes for you, that is sad indeed.

I only know that I studied logic, philosophy, and many things in a secular setting and still got sucked in out of my great need for love and acceptance, and my closest friends were "led" there and I didn't want to lose them.
(We have all been led out in increments so we are still together as friends with a remarkable history: pre, during and post ggwo).

Let's pray that inner worlds get rocked and shaken. Questions are enlightening as you said, the right question can lead us to the right answers but will the questions be heard?

I am going to try to remember the dialogue that went on in my inner world as I came to the solid but excruciating realization that I could never be a part of the ministry again. To return would have been a lie and all I clung to was knowing He diesires truth on the inward parts'.

It matters when you have a sick feeling in your gut and are afraid to tell anyone.

It matters when you notice cliques and an 'in crowd' that you feel excluded from in a place where you are taught that "God is no respector of persons."

It matters that people who say they are your close friends, are rude and unkind, because they are afraid they won't get a good seat in church, up near the pulpit, if they stop to engage with you.

It matters when you are out of town taking care of a loved one and the only canned things said to you imply that when the loved one dies you can come back to your call.
(So you take care of someone with half a heart thinking you are missing things and God is disappointed with you for laying down your life for a "non-body" member.)

Does it matter that God says to honor your mother and father?

Does it matter that that parent laid down their whole life for you?

Why so you could grow up to tell them they were from the pit if they said a word about CHS:TBS:GGWO that made you fear listening to an evil report and subsequently turning into a reprobate monstor?

I'll ask a question, if you are reading, if you have guts to hear,
"Are you out of your mind?"

Do you think God is that hard up for people that he would confine himself to one short burst of time and place in history and say "This is it, the full manifestation of everything I am for all times!"??

Honestly, do you really thinks all those people you loved and listened to for years, who are suddenly gone, do you really believe they are evil, a threat, off, out of range of the Spirit, too far gone for the God of the infathomable universe????

I won't tell you you are wrong because your own consience is telling you it doesn't jive with your hearts cry or with the scriptures.

If CHS can go to the pond and have a moment with God that changes his life SO CAN ANYONE ELSE! Why are we such idiots to think his vision is more important than ours!?

It matters that you always feel you have to question your ideas and screen them by talking to a pastor or only to "Pastor". How insulting to God that you would put a man between you and Him.

We can serve in others work but it has to be a vital connection engaging us as individuals, not just mindless subservience as a fledgling follower who discounts their own passions. Not as an ESCAPE from facing our true calling in a world full of unknowns.

You are human, not a clone. Relationships are meant to bless you just for the joy of friendship, not just at raps, on the sidewalk, at the blitz, etc...You are not made to be a perfuntory machine, collecting souls for the pews.

What happens after the soul is caught,,,is anyone really interested in their personal pain or development, or is it all a matter of getting with the flow and letting "Gaad" deliver you from...what...not agreeing with the pulpit and resisting a one size fits all message???

People are precious, living souls not commodities to build the kingdom. People are who Christ died for, to love them, not utilize them.

Be real and face the troubling thoughts you have to have or you must not be breathing.

I have to go. I'm the weakest person on this forum so what I say is not "gospel" it's just my voice.
If it resonates fine.
If not, fine, I don't have a soapbox, but I have a lot of emotional undercurrent about all of this and I think God loves me anyway whether I feel it or not or else He isn't the One that I can turn to no matter what.

I need a God much bigger, much greater, than any doctrine, or ministry can devise. Outside the box. Better there, than in a seat full of complacency and negativity towards anyone who doesn't "think" like I do.

Are you really thinking? or do you believe that it is ok to let someone else do it for you? That alone should make you question.
See ya,
Paticia

[forte (forte)]

sojourner,
Marvelous post. You're great. What I meant was that there is no "perfect church"...a place where there isn't any trouble.

[lee (lee)]

When Jack and I left Lenox right after the trial, it was clear to us that that was what we had to do. Probably because we were up close and personally involved. There was no question.

We went back to the church we started in Boston and left to return to Lenox so Jack could run the bible school. They had stopped paying us, so they had to come up with some support. I was enough to cover half of what we needed, so Jack began to improve the school, drawing another half from that.

During that time, we thought we were okay because we were away from the problem. Little did we realize the problem laid within us as well! Not only were we grieving the loss of ministry and friends, we had more difficult work to do. That was, to rid ourselves of all the false and twisted teachings we'd received. We, for a long time, even thought some of them were better than those accepted by mainline denominations!

Jack increasingly became more and more uncomfortable being a clergy member and the clergy in the area didn't impress him much. He didn't think any of them worked very much. There was always a distinct separation between them and the people. He was uncomfortable with that.

We slowly began to realize that we weren't allright. We were unhappy with what we were doing and the unfufilled sense was growing more and more.

It took God to cause a major power struggle within the church (we were not reading the handwriting on the wall very well) to get us out. The fight to keep the church just wasn't worth it.

We began to see that we had God given gifts and the desires we considered worldly or even satanic were not that. We began to believe that if we continued to ignore them , that we would be sinning. We took a big step and Jack and I both went back to school. Jack for education and me for flower design (an acceptable substitute for my real desire).

It was a time of hard work but MUCH grace, as we did something that seemed to require more than anyone could give. Plus, we had 3 sons that needed our attention. No one suffered! We got our education, then jobs, our kids grew fine, we still loved God, his word, still fellowshipped, still complained about where we had been,still missed some of the old, still had to work out the problems, but, it was more than survival. It was a gracefilled time. We stopped ignoring the thing that was there all along. The beautiful gifts God had put in us. We stopped hiding them, paid attention to them and they flourished.

We were so hooked on this grace that Jack went for more education, I stopped the flower thing and returned to my greatest love of painting. Jack says we put ourselves on a steep learning curve. We have loved doing this. It's challenging, tiring but so fulfilling.

I would bet my life that there are some still living in that confusing bewildered state,that have gifts right under your noses that you fail to see and pay attention to, because for years, you have been told not to. You have been deprived of developing the very thing you were made for.

I guess if I were to look back, I would say, we stayed with our church too long. We were too timid to ask for help. Too timid to pursue a dream that wasn't growing the church. Too timid to pay attention to our own hearts cry.

God will take care of you. I think its time for you to pay attention to yourselves and your family. No matter how old you are or how poor you think you are, if you are more than part of the herd that only knows what to do if someone else tells you, then there is a real and good dream within you that is worth developing. I'd say, its probably from God himself and will not hurt you or the church if you pursue it. It's probably the very thing that will bring life to you, your family and the church. It will probably spill out to places you never thought it would.

[mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale)]

Patricia...great post. Thank you for sharing your heart. Keep searching for every drop that God has for you! I don't consider myself any theologian nor can I quote lots of scripture, but I do know that God is forever faithful. I have seen it in my own life.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Forte and Lee and everyone,
Thank you for all you have shared and the gracious way you have said it. I woke up struggling today. I didn't feel as though I had the right to speak but there are some things that just pour out from a place your conscious mind cannot veto. It is beyond that type of awareness...gut level maybe?? I think that is what is squashed in cults, the very thing that allows us to have child-like faith the way God intended,,,full of wonder and a sense of being the apple of His eye, carved in the palm of His hand, never fearing rejection or desertion. Maybe some long repressed anger is spilling out, maybe I am going to have a breakdown, but in the thick of it, my heart goes out to the lowliest in society, I find myself smiling in spite of the inner turmoil, at the very people I used to cross the street to avoid. You know I can't imagine the devil being behind a delelopment like that. God bless you guys and thanks for this rich, rich thread..
Patricia

[lee (lee)]

Forte,
I think whatever you say to those with the blinders on, will in time have an effect. If its personal, said with an attitude that you care deeply, they can't ignore it. It gives me great hope when I see or hear someone that is struggling, angry or any kind of emotion. It's those that show none that I fear for. But, God must have a way to reach even them.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Sojourner

I have pondered on these very questions for quite some time.
Why is it that We can read promise after promise after promise but never really have them become a reality in our life. Why is it that every promise is ours, but not really ours.

I don't think answer comes in the words, I think the answer goes beyond the written word into true reality. Where the presence of God surrounds you.
You see we can quote verse after verse but if we don't recognize the presence of God we never found the true meaning of those words.
The very Spirit that inspired men to write those words is the very Spirit that surrounds you and I.
We can roll off every promise from the tip of our tounge and they don't do a thing.

But oh we can stop, quiet our soul and listen to the one who wispers softly, you are my precious child, you are the reason I gave my life, the very reason you exist is so that I could commune with you,so that I could watch you blossom into the very one I purposed you to be.

The Fathers Love goes far beyond any word; beyond time you where on His very heart. It is those quiet times He longs for to love and be loved.
Richard Wubrant gave a testimony one time that he was placed alone to stand for hours surrounded by nails on everyside, he couldn't lay, sit , or bend. He got to the point where he could not even think of a single word from the scripture, he was so exausted. The only thing that kept him was he knew and felt the presence of God. He stood there and he basked in that presence. It is all he knew at that time. It is that that kept him going.

I say that to say, put everything aside, climb up in your daddys lap, and just be there. Let Him place His loving arms around you and hold you, and hold you , and hold you. Theres no place more peaceful than to be in your Heavenly Fathers arms.

With love, pressing_on

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Thank you through the tears pressing on, I think some major denial has been pierced today and without all of you, whether we agree all the time or not..I probably would still be under the covers instead of letting out, instead of admitting, hey I sound ok, but there's a huge battle going on and I have been trying to be an island, trying to go it alone. It's hard to need others sometimes, for me it has always been hard to show people my inner world.
Love you,
Patricia

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Sojourner
Your never alone.
I pray that God speaks to your heart in a way like never before.
Know that you are loved.
Love Pressing_on

[jim_kennedy (jim_kennedy)]

Thanks for starting this Lee, I hope all the "vets" will comment on it because it is important.

I haven't seen alot of thinking in regards to Steve and Paul. And no wonder. Look what GGWO members been doing with their lives for the last 10,20 plus years. Sitting in a cult soaking up the teachings of a psychotic. When is the last time they made a truly independent decision, or for that matter had an original thought? Which verses will their minds "recall" as they make a decision about the new direction of their lives? Don't judge? Don't touch God's Annointed? Forgiveness? Are they moving out of a cult or following their friends toward a personality they feel more comfortable with?

Let's say you're new in town and you visit the church down the street. You receive a brochure and turn to the page 'About Our Pastor.' The first sentence reads: "Our pastor is the son of infamous Cult leader Carl H. Stevens." Would you return? Would you even stay for the message?

There seems to be a lack of understanding about what is going on here. GGWO is a cult. The testimony is extensive. It is a cult with a history of false teaching regarding pastoral authority. It's members believe they have some type of "calling" other christians do not have. They fit cult models for mind control which have been posted here numerous times. TBS/GGWO abuses have resulted in broken lives and broken homes. What is happening there goes far beyond a church split or "no church is perfect." A conscious effort was made to manipulate the member's ability to think. Do you wish to attend a church with a pastor who's entire christian education and experience revolves around a cult? These "leaders" shouldn't be teaching, they need to be taught.

Let's go back to our brochure. "Our pastor received his call to start a church after his affair with a woman who came to him for marriage counseling and a cash payoff taken from the collection money to cover it up were exposed." Still want to stay for the message?

There is a lot of talk about love. About forgiveness. "You don't know his heart...He repented..God is using him...God forgives everybody...Wait and see." This is the same rationale that supported Carl Stevens for years. Everyone covered his sins. The doctrine of "think no evil" was a pillar of faith at GGWO. Those who stood up to Steven's errors and abuses were marked, many as being "unforgiving and judgemental." Are you really thinking for yourself on this issue?

Walking out the door of Frankford Plaza is one thing. Washing years of indoctrination out of your mind is another. Some have left GG and been out for years but still have the same outlook as when they were in. Isn't it time to let go of GGWO? Isn't this the reason why God is allowing all this to happen?

People aren't exited from cults through love. It is good that loving people are around to help with the transition, but people are exited from cults by being exposed to the truth. Exiting is a process that represents a loss and is a painful one. Like a divorce or the death of a loved one. On one hand it is always with you, but on the other you must say goodbye and go forward. The love is there to help with the process. But if we refuse to deal with these issues directly we are not loving these people at all. We are as guilty as those who lied to them all along.

I think it's great that people who exit get together, pray, talk, open their bibles and work as a group to deal with their problems. Alot of that happens on Factnet. Friendships are a treasure and not to be abandoned. It's so healthy to throw away the "no talk rule" and really try to work it out. And who better to do that with than someone with a shared experience.
There is much literature devoted to the subject as well, and organizations and therapists which provide exit counseling. (I hope one of our resident experts can package some of this.) There are other churches. It is through this process that thinking and discernment return. Many here can testify to that experience. The blinders come off. But you have to make the decision to get out. Otherwise you're simply relocating to another venue of codependency and enablement. You're not leaving GG and it's lock on your mind will continue.

For my part, it grieves me to see the influence GGWO still has on the minds of so many who are leaving and have already left. I'm done shouting about it. I'm out 12 years now and all I can say is it truly is a part of my past. Sometimes it's difficult to express yourself fully on a typewriter or understand the expression of others. I'm not sitting here wounded or bitter. I felt led to try to help out. But being around GGWO makes me feel dirty. It's a dirty, evil place. Factnet in no way represents a desire to go back in time or stay in contact. I've made friends here and will always want to join in when it's fun. But I have no more advice to give. People make their own decisions. Unfortunately not everyone gets out.

"Now however that you have come to understand (the true) God, or rather are known and understood by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly and worthless elementary things, whose slaves you once more want to become?" Ga.4:9

Jim, wokbts@aol.com

(Message edited by jim kennedy on June 16, 2005)

[minutus (minutus)]

Preach, Jim!

The Mother Ship is a ravaging abomination and the only hope for those within is escape. Life on the outside is not easy and recovery of the lost tears and years takes time, but staying with the "small men" is a stench in the nostrils of God.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Jim,
I wonder if you are meant to appreciate the meaning and hope your story gives to others.
Today I hope you have a light heart and deep laughter. You deserve it Jim.
Patricia

[mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale)]

Jim, good post.

[lee (lee)]

Owning our own stuff (as it is said in Vineyard churches) is a powerful thing. Stuff that we take responsibility for can never return to wreak havoc in our lives again. It can never embarass us cause its already known. It can't abuse us cause the cycle has been stopped. It's like the verse Jim uses. We are known of God and we never have to return as slaves again. It's a good thing (as Martha used to say)

[lana (lana)]

All of the posts above have stirred me immensly. The loss we've experienced is not our fault! I don't know why it takes so long to be restored. The emptiness we've lived with is indiscribable. Years of it! We didn't give up though. We became stronger in Faith. He never left us. His Word is clarified in our lives. It unites us as one. I identify with all of you wonderful people.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Friends,

All of the posts here today have been very powerful! I'm left with very little to say here on FN these days. Your voices speak to and for me in so many ways.

You know there are so many paradoxes in Christianity. The Bible is at the same time very simple in its message and incredibly complex in all of the historical, cultural, linguistic, and theologogical issues that must be considered to truly understand it. There are seeming contradictions that when not handled with much grace would simply excoriate any of us.

It is truly a humbling process to "live in community" - even when such community is established in cyberspace. Many thanks to everyone here for being my friends - even when our paths did not cross during my involvment with GGWO.

Much Love in Christ,


Brian Bowman
1 Corinthians 1:30

[bruder5 (bruder5)]

The "Owning our own stuff" was said well by Manning after wrestling with years of addiction as a priest...

"We are only grateful people when we can say thank you to all that has brought us to the present moment. As long as we keep dividing our lives between events and people that we would like to remember, and those we would like to forget, we cannot claim the fullness of our beings as a gift of God to be grateful for. Let's not be afraid to look at everything that has brought us to where we are now and TRUST that we will soon see in it the guiding hand of a loving God."

Manning goes on to add this profound statement by psychoanalyst Eric Ericson:
"There are only 2 choices: integration and acceptance of our whole life story, or despair."

It's my sense that saying thank you is not a compromise of the past or "denial" but has in it the seeds of revolution...a radical acceptance of what I can't change and a clear view of what I can...sort of the serenity prayer...
The Posts here are inspiring and thoughtful...again this wonderful narrative community continues with gracious uncompromising power...

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Nice post, Sir Martin.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Brian,
You are a sweetie. Hope you don't mind me saying so Anne. I am always impressed by the way you study and present facts that are so important.

Bruder, is there a book by this priest 'Manning'?
What was his first name?

The quote by Ericson rings true for me, it is not an automatic thing but sort of a reduction. It's like a gerbil on a wheel, you keep going round and round with the despair and it gets unbearable and you come to a place where you just know it is not a viable option. Life and despair are polar opposites but it still seems to pop up opportunistically, while we are trying to make sense of things. Maybe that is tthe problem...trying to make sense of everything...Do we have to figure everything out...I am starting to let go of that drive to understand it all...it's too big for me and my mind takes off in a million directions and wants to explode from the possibilities it conjures up.

I think on another post I said something about realising that to view the 'lost years' as totally meaningless or bad just leads me to despair, if God is God then nothing is lost, if He is not, nothing can be gained.

So faith is the key factor in the equation.

I am thinking about those two words, integration vs. despair. This viewing our lives without breaking things up into good and bad events, things to forget, things to remember...how do we learn to do this? This is a world of specialties, when people desperatly need to be viewed as whole beings.
How did this priest Manning incorporate addiction into the fullness of what he became? Was it by letting the addiction become an ally instead of an enemy so he wouldn't fear it and run from it but rather understand it and learn from it?

I'm not phrasing these questions well, my head hurts thaat is why I amnot asleep yet.

When I finally told my therapist about the cult issue, it was despair I was expressing, despair and embarassment. She happens to be an open enlightened person, I sense a deep spirituality about her, so in that sense I am fortunate...but she is the one who proposed to me that this was my story, and those years were ingredients of my story and there was a gain to be had not a loss.
I balked at the idea, but now I am more open to it.

Maybe she reads Ericson, I know I did in college but I do not recall it in detail. Do you or anyone reading think that at the times we want to give up the most there is the greatest potential for this 'integration' through acceptance and then even possibly gratitude to come on the scene despite the feeling that all is lost?
Is despair something we all tend towards at some point or just the pessimists?
Is anyone naturally happy?
Are people who seemed to navigate their lives subject to despair?
Does great failure have the potential to honestly help us recieve great joy, so that in a way the ones who have failed the most can experience the most meaning in life through forgiveness and then serving others with genuine empathy?
Will some of us who feel we have wasted so much time really come to a place where we are thankful for everything, including those years of indoctrination?
Could it be that God had us go through this on purpose and we can 'befriend' the experience or be thankful for it?
Will Truth be that much more self-evident because we are so well equipped to sniff out lies in terms of how things are manifested more than mere words on a page? You know, like the bent of one's being. Is it tending towards life or death? Life begets life it is said.

Maybe we are all roses cropping up from dessert places making the beauty all the more outstanding than one rose among a thousand in a big garden.

I want that to be more the case then the fatalism I have been battling but I get hit with the accusation that I am just making excuses.
Trying to get off the hook.

These are just random thoughts and questions through blurry eyes at teh moment.
OK, two more excedrin and another attempt at sleep. You're all in dreamland now anyway.

[jack_leonard (jack_leonard)]

I would like to add to my wife’s posts. This is the thread I have been waiting for.

First, though, I want to thank Marty for the great quote:
“There are only 2 choices: integration and acceptance of our whole life story, or despair."
You know you have more work to do if you’re still spending valuable emotional energy (anger, frustration, bitterness, or despair) in regard to the years wasted in Stevensland. We’ve given enough already! Must we continue giving?

It was a small step to come out of TBS/GGWO and look for another church. For many of us, we only had one model, one standard, so we looked around for a church that “wins souls, preaches the Finished Work, goes into all the world, has 24-hour prayer” and so on. We still looked for a ministry that we could give our hearts and minds to (rather than to God). We still looked for a spiritual father. In other words, we left GGWO, but we didn’t leave the religious idols that had been erected in our hearts for so long.

I left Lenox in 1987 like this. I went back to Boston, pulled my own church out of the TBS/GGWO affiliation, and determined to fulfill the “vision” without Lenox or Baltimore. We would still win souls, do bus ministry, go into all the world, support missionaries, have Bible School classes and so on. For years, I struggled to compete, comparing myself mentally to what I knew from Lenox. I could almost hear the voice of CHS, mocking my efforts. I was determined to have a strong testimony at the Bema Seat, where I could boast about my growing church, bus ministry, and worldwide missionaries. I was still bowing down to the same idol, even though he was 5 states away!

The problem is that you cannot grow another cult like Lenox/Baltimore unless you are willing to be a cult leader and I was not cut out to do that. I still expected my congregation to call me “Pastor” Leonard, but I could not order and threaten people from the pulpit. I couldn’t bring myself to hold up this high spiritual standard of 24-hour service to the ministry, which I was not prepared to enforce with my own wife and children (I couldn’t sacrifice my wife and children for the sake of my business/ministry). I couldn’t mark ex-members and promote the us-them mentality that holds people in fear.

I realized after 6 years that I had left Lenox but I had not left the cultic model of Christianity. I had a congregation of well-trained sheep, many of whom could not think for themselves or exercise any independent judgment. We were still living the dream – “we’re the greatest church in Boston, we’re the only ones with the Finished Work, we support missionaries, we have bus ministry” – with a strong undercurrent of frustration.

We prided ourselves in going into the uttermost parts of the world (well, 2 missionaries), but in reality we couldn’t get off our front doorstep. Oh, we had bus ministry and Bible studies, but we were crippled as far the world where most people live. For example, I had a Christian school. Do you think I could convince any of my talented teachers to go out and get a real education in education? No. Later, when we broke up, they were left high and dry, unable to secure a job in teaching. They were unfit for the world. In fact, we were all unfit for the world. We had no testimony, no resume, no experience, and no credibility that would translate into anything of value for the world. As a result, we had no message, no Gospel. The only ones who did well were the “marginal” members whom I had previously condemned in a hundred subtle ways – the ones who were going to grad school, building businesses, and spending way too much time doing things instead of bus ministry or Bible study or Wednesday night service.

I look back and realize that we failed in so many ways. We did not invade the neighborhoods, the schools, the hospitals and clinics, the banks and businesses, the City Hall and State House, and the world where most people lived. Why? Because in our hearts, we scorned where they lived and what they did. For years, our goal had been to insulate ourselves from worldly people, worldly music, and worldly conversations and to get hid in the body.

How does this sound? God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son. So, Jesus left Heaven every Friday night and came to planet earth to hand out tracts. He never went alone and He never dressed like a worldling. All His work was confined to the streets because no one in his right mind would listen to Him in a university classroom, a surgical ward, a bank boardroom, or the State House legislature. Earth was a dirty place, so He rode the bus back to Heaven the same night and sang “It’s bubbling” all the way back to Heaven.

Clearly, Jesus was different. He left Heaven and immersed himself in earth life. He took on Himself our form and nature, our language, family traditions, our manual work and, ultimately, even our sin. He was not worldwide; He was amazingly local. He was not 24-hour; He slept every night. He was not a visiting missionary; he was here until he died. He was not clergy. He was not aloof. He was not “holier than thou.” He ate meals with sinners. Heck, he lived with sinners. Yet, He dignified all that we do, all that we live, because He brought divinity into the very center of it. He brought God into everything we do.

God loved the world. The artists(!) The intellectuals(!) He loves the world. He loves THE WORLD!

I have completely reversed. I used to go to church to get cleaned up from the world and to get built up so I could face another week of work. Now, I go to church in the same way Jesus went to the synagogue every week. It’s the right thing to do. God might speak there, but no more than He does at work or in my time off. Sometimes I get inspired; sometimes I have to get cleaned off afterwards from church (too much religion)! It is no more holy and no more spiritual than anything else I do. It is not the body; it is church. I often go back to work on Monday to get built up and inspired. I see Jesus in the kids I face every day. I find fellowship with my co-workers; some are believers and many are heroes. It is here that I find purpose and dignity.

I write all this for those who are on the “exit ramp.” The ramp is a lot longer than you imagine and the farther out you go the more you are aware of faith and God and the unique beauty and wonder of the life you have been given. Don’t stop short!

(Message edited by jack leonard on June 17, 2005)

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

For believers to withdraw from the world and try to isolate themselves in 'the Body' is to seek to remove Christ's influence from it. We try to marginalize Him, afraid that His purity in us will be sullied.

This isolation also can extend into what we're willing to interact with intellectually and emotionally. If we don't 'go' where people are, we won't reach who they are. We have to 'see' and feel their hurts and joys. The way to deal with darkness is by bringing your light with you. Walk in the Spirit, pray. The Lord is our Shield, our help in time of need. He knows where and how people can truly be reached. It's not about moments of decision. It's about giving your life as the Spirit leads. It will look different in different people. It can be individual or collective. Find truth for your steps.

[lana (lana)]

Jack, what a great way to start the day.I just love your total honesty.I left Lenox about the same time.

[bruder5 (bruder5)]

Mannings writings and teaching can be accessed at:
www.brennanmanning.com (http://www.brennanmanning.com)
His work on "The wisdom of tenderness" is compeling stuff...as well as "Ruthless Trust".

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Thanks Jack!

FWIW, here is *great* ministry that is doing much of what you describe as Christ's ministry:

http://www.desirestreet.org/site/index.php

Desire Street in an Inner City ministry in New Orleans founded by Mo Leverett in the mid 90's. Mo is a grauate of Reformed Seminary in Charlotte, NC and an ordained Presbyterian Chruch in America Minister.

Desire Street is a TRUE minstry to its community. This is what GGWO Baltimore could be if they understood what you are saying in your post above.

Much Love in Christ,


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

[lana (lana)]

Hearing from so many on Factnet, is God's true energy given to us. Its a message of hope and deliverence Its overcoming evil with good. "The Truth shall set us free" We are not alone.

[joyce (joyce)]

Wow, Jack! That is powerful. I had to print your post and read it over a few times to absorb it. It's the best devotional I've read in a long time.

I've watched my three children grow into adulthood. My oldest daughter teaches special needs to behavior disorder kids in elementary school. My youngest daughter is a visiting nurse. People ask for her specifically, especially hospice patients. My son works hard and has the best outlook on life than anyone I know. None of them go to church. The girls are mothers of well-adjusted, loving children. I wrestled with their "no church attendance" for a long time. There are plenty of people to "blame" - me being the chief one. But, I see fruitful people, loving people, caring, good citizens. The really do love God and believe in His message. But, to quote one of my daughters: "Mom, that building (church) is where all the nightmares are." Those words haunt me. What damage was done, I don't know. But my joy is watching them be who they are and despite all my efforts to "train" them, they grew and bless me.

p.s. One last note to you, Jack. My husband considers you the BEST friend he had in Lenox. You were a great listener and silently stood with him.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Thanks for that powerful post Jack, boy you helped me tremendously with that.
Bruder, thanks for the website reference and all of your input...my candle hasn't gone out yet.
Bob Brinton, I think I have met you...can't picture you but I appreciate the depth and brilliance of what you share.
Actually, there isn't anyone on this forum I am not grateful for. Lee, your brief question catapulted us into one of the most important threads I have seen in a long time. I am reading it over and over again. (Maybe that's why I got a headache yesterdaY!)
Good day all, today is all we have,
Love you,
Patricia

[lee (lee)]

I love these stories from the exit ramp!

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Joyce,

1. My heart broke when I read your post. Church should be a safe place for our children where they discover that while we were sinners Christ died for us.

2. My prayer for our four children is that 'the building' will be a place for safety, refreshement and encouragement to be a light to the world and a city set on a hill.

3. TBS/GGWO for all its claims of grace is the most legalistic 'building' I ever attended. We heard 'grace' and 'Spirit life' but it boiled down to works and shamed based condemnation.

4. We are doing our best to teach our children to do ALL for the glory of God...even a fully accredited University education and a career in a field where they can influence the circle they travel in.

5. I know I said it before, but you really have no idea how much your life impacted Christine, and your gentleness towards her and the patience in the trials you faced have PROFOUNDLY impressed her.

(Message edited by dave drago on June 17, 2005)

[offshore (offshore)]

GGWO may never come to this end, however, the means to this end, are clearly familiar, are they not?

The Religious Movements Homepage Project
@The University of Virginia
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Jonestwn.html#belief

Peoples Temple (Jonestown)

In November 1978, more than 900 people died in the largest mass murder/suicide in American history. Most of the deaths occurred in a jungle encampment in Guyana, South America, where members of a group called Peoples Temple lived in a utopian community and agricultural project known as Jonestown. Most died after drinking a fruit punch laced with cyanide and tranquilizers, although some may have been injected; two residents died of gunshot wounds. Earlier that day a few other residents of the group had assassinated a U.S. congressman along with three members of the media and a departing Jonestown resident. And in Guyana’s capital city of Georgetown, yet another member of the group killed her three children and then herself after receiving word of the deaths in Jonestown. In all, 918 Americans lost their lives that day.

Since that time, Jonestown and its leader Jim Jones have entered American discourse as code for the dangers of cults and cult leaders. The expression “drinking the Kool-Aid”—which means both blindly jumping on the bandwagon, and being a team player—is one manifestation of this.

The story of Jonestown, and of its parent organization Peoples Temple, however, is more complicated than sound-bites comparing strict parents to Jim Jones, or pundits relating religious violence (such as the suicide air strikes of 11 September 2001) to Jonestown.

Instead, Jonestown serves as a lesson in how a combination of media, government, and citizens can create a climate of persecution and fear.

It also provides an example of how uncritical acceptance of the status quo and social and geographic isolation can lead to violence and even death.


Similarities to GGWO

Social Isolation
Utopian mindset
Exclusivity
Guns and weapons available
Persecution and megalomania
Fear based thinking
Toxic shamed based rationalization
Uncritical acceptance of status quo
Unquestioned loyalty to leader
I was debating on putting this one in...but hey, it's a fact...
Prescription drugs available or used.


How to handle the transition "out" ? See below.

www.gentlespirit.com/gs6n03/v6n03f.htm (http://www.gentlespirit.com/gs6n03/v6n03f.htm) - 6k

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

Very interesting posts all.
Marty stated: “There are only 2 choices: integration and acceptance of our whole life story, or despair."
In reading these posts I am thrilled that people are going on seeking fulfillment for that they missed out on, but I'm a little leary as to believe those things are true fulfillment.
I have known many people who have received 2,3,or even 4 different degrees only to find out neither one reached that fulfillment. I have worked for Doctors and lawyers, been in their homes, shared with them only to find out some live in despair just as the other half of the world does. They have money, friends, ect.. but they never really filled the void in thier soul.

In our life sometimes despair turns to into a story or maybe somebodies story turns to despair.
They come to that ripe old age and they look back on thier life and they say what have I done. Really what have I done.
We always feel like there was some better way something better we could have done. But the reality is we can't change the past it's gone, but we can change the future.

I never want to look back on my past as a waste, I wouldn't be who I was today if it weren't for my past; it was not all good, it was not all bad, it just was. Am I saying my life is perfect absolutely not. But this current transition made me see God in a whole new light.
If I were not brought into GGWO I may have never known God. I say brought because I was only a child when my family entered. I had some truely great experiences, and some bad .

Life reveals the same thing to us. As a matter of fact before we entered TBS/GGWO our lives where a complete mess, being there transformed that mess. Coming out revealed there were things there that were a mess.
But God choses to reveal those things for a reason. See He's not through yet, not with any of us.
I or we stand in shock because of what we expereinced, and came out of, it should have been no surprise
It was our Heavenly Father who said "in the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer I have overcome the world", I don't think he was speaking of just the secular world.

I don't believe we've seen anything yet
In the last days, every mans heart will be continually evil, the love of many will wax cold. Mother against daughter father against son.
Will there be even such a thing as faith? I think we only got a small glimps of reality.
If our faith is a little stronger because of this, then it is a lesson well learned.
I never want to base my whole life around my expereince with GGWO, I never want to put my life on hold until I see the results my own heart wants, because in reality I'll probably never get them.

Our future is bright, God is still God, He is still on the throne, He has never changed, I thank Him for that. The devil is still active, roaming the earth seeking whom he may devour.
There is nothing new under the sun, and we will never go where our Lord hasn't already been.

Someone above stated that we should be with the world, to delve into thier lives. I believe this to be true, in Ezekiel 2 it says that he sat where they sat.
Have you ever sat down on the street corner with a prostitute, have you ever asked them thier life story. Maybe they'll respond to Christ at that point, or maybe they have been so rejected thier whole life that they couldn't possibly believe someone would love them as you say.
They still need us. God doesn't need us, he desires us. He doesn't stand with a gun pointed at us saying go, He's not a manipulator, He just speaks to the heart softly.
Soujourner said she finds herself smiling at people she would cross the street to avoid. Do you ever sit and just look at people wondering what is going on in their life. Do you ever just weep for someone you don't even know as you see them across the street while driving in your car. All of this seems to make me a little more tender.
The best testimony of all the theif on the cross confesses, never has time to reveal to someone his life was changed, but our Lord says you will be with me in paradise.
This is the Lord we serve. This is the heart I long to have and I'm sure most of you long for that also. It is not something I ever want to strive for, I just want to learn to love because He first loved me.

(Message edited by pressing_on on June 18, 2005)

[lana (lana)]

Stevens was smarter than Jim Jones, he did the same thing but slowly, with amazing sofisticated hidden magnatism to put himself between us and God. He was God's chosen apostle! We believed him.
What must he be thinking now? Does anyone know?

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I'm just thinking about the distinction between trying to get people to accept Christ (or worse, institutionalized Christianity) and trying to be a place where He accepts them. I want to be His acceptance of them, if possible; not of myself, but in the Spirit.

[pressing_on (pressing_on)]

I don't think we have to try to make people accept, I think our life speaks volumes in itself when we are lead by His spirit.
I believe He prepares the heart even before the spirit sends someone their way. Remember we were not saved by blind faith it was the spirit that drew us and continues to draw us. He accepts all who come to him. I wish I could do the same; and so the Spirit conitnues to work.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

One thing I am convinced of is that we should not be sharing in this sales mode full of affectation. That is not real, if God is God, He holds everyone in His hand, He knows the unique mix that contributes to where people are at at any given moment in their lives. Peope are not static and one dimensional. It's easy to talk and go on and on about what we think we know but the Lord I meet in the Scriptures drew people out from their hiding places, He discerned the seeking hearts, He never imposed Himself when it came to drawing all men to Himself. He is the bread of life, if a person has not tasted the bread of life there is a place that resides empty, a hunger that nothing has satisfied yet. I think our responsability is to eat that bread and drink that water of life in His person, through our own relationship with Him and all the other encounters will present themselves as we go about our lives. It is when I think I am closer to God than someone else is that I get insecure and domineering. Some people may be far closer to Him in their disposition of their hearts but may not realise His name is Jesus. Are we open to hear the Spirit speak to us and teach us through someone with a vastly different experience than ours. I am, more than ever, I want variety, balance, and most of all rest from all my strivings.

[preston (preston)]

the whole life story or despair...

My branch pastor father has realized that for him, joining the new affiliation might very well be continuing the despair. Much like following the Steven's boys into their "new" ventures there is much negative connotation and burned emotion in these branch-off churches.

For many the new affilation still has old flavor enough to distract us from receiving the Word. Pushing spiritual nightmare aside in order to focus on what's being preached; now that's a difficult thing to accomplish. Better perhaps to make a clean break.

A pastor left the church and chose not to be a part of the new affilation... though he holds them dear... for it holds too many difficult distractions. This pastor understands that it may not be wise to continue preaching in a new pulpit without first having the assurance that what he preaches isn't flavored with old thinking. I don't see enough associate pastors doing this.

[lee (lee)]

thanks Sojourner

Preston, what wisdom. We had the nightmare come to real life because we didn't have the assurance you speak of. We didn't take a close enough look. Maybe some people need a nightmare to wake them up.

[preston (preston)]

Disaffiliated pastors put in 20-30 years of their lives. That’s decades of no health insurance, no pension and no plan for their future. They may not own their home. They may not hold “secular” degrees, and even if they do the job market is narrow for men facing retirement 10 years out. Their blind assumption was that GGWO would absorb them in their old age and their pulpit parrot mantra was “God will provide.” This assumption continued even as they saw older pastors put out to pasture left and right. Sorry, we have no staff position available to you, returning missionary. Here’s the way to the pasture, elderly stateside branch pastor.

Disaffiliated pastors are facing a future where they cannot retire because there is no income to live on. Pastoring not out of calling but necessity. Their only opportunity is to keep on pastoring somewhere so they can meet the bills, but they are presently separating their ingrained thinking process from decades of spiritual deception and some, perhaps should not be in the pulpit until there is clarity. Who then, will absorb these pastors and their wives? Where will they go? To branch ministries full of exit ramp wounded people? Not a viable option for many.

The only option for many of these pastors is back to go back to the non-GGWO families these pastors alienated for the past 20 years.

[lee (lee)]

Preston, for many of them its those families that have been the ones supporting them for years anyway.

I am a firm believer that if you side with truth then no matter how difficult it may be to 'make the bills', your life will be far better. Cleaner and easier to live and enjoy the relationship you do have with God. Hey, you'll discover many things about him that you didn't know before! They are in the same place others are in, like the people from Enron or those of us playing catch up cause we never planned to live long enough for retirement. This is where creativity and desperation meet and come up with a solution.

I couldn't say these things unless we faced this ourselves. I don't mean to minimize the difficulty. Death of a husband could mean certain extreme difficulties for many a woman. Is the dedication to God or a ministry?

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Hi Lee, I still don't plan on living to retire. I figure someone will find a heavy enough rock to throw. Of the gnashing of teeth there will be an eventual end, but there might be a bloody mess on the way there. Boddah would like that one.

[lana (lana)]

Doesn't Jesus say: "I will provide all your needs according to my riches in Glory"? Its a matter of Trust and Faith.Its not easy, but He cannot lie.

[lee (lee)]

Bob, we knew years ago that we can't retire. Jack plans on working till they throw him out and he's hoping I learn something about marketing myself so I will support him! Let's hope those that are looking to us for support will have found themselves by then, or maybe we could run a boarding house for cast aways!
So where did you come out on Jeannie's theology quiz?

Lana, I'm wondering if Jesus thinks my needs are way less than I think they are! bread/water/a grate at the public library in the winter to keep me warm/kindness of strangers! just kidding lana, I have tasted the dilemma some are in right now trying to figure out what to do. I will say however, its a contest to see who was happier leaving the pastor's wife position, me or BJ!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Hi Lee, I haven't taken the quiz. But if I do, I'll let you know.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Lee, may I put a security down now to reserve one of those rooms for castaways??? Name your price!

Preston, you have a great way of communicating. Did you read the thread on Steve Steven's New Curch, there is a lot of commentary on jumping from the fire into the frying pan?The issue of accountability and purging the old leaven so it will not spread are touched upon.

It sounds like this is something your heart is highlighting as a very relevant concern.

Lee, I agree that there is comfort in knowing that everyone, except an exclusive bunch, is in the same boat regarding a provision for the future. I have relatives nearing retirement that lost 80% of their life's savings after September 11th.

We can be so absorbed with thinking we would be at a much better place in terms of societal comforts and insurance had we not wasted time in a cult: however many who did work relentlessly to make those assurances "in the world" as we said, are now leveled out due to unforseen
economic changes. The world can turn on a dime and the plans we had nailed down just evaporate into thin air.

What a statement Lee, that creativity and desperation meet to come up with a solution. Your choice of words displays your artistic nature...most of us would have said the old standby that "Necessity is the mother of invention."

Artists, I am convinced are used by God to help us take off the blinders and see the detailed beauty that lies all around us.

Then, it can also all boil down to what Jesus asked us, "What good will worrying do, what will it add to your life?" (Paraphrase mine, sorry James, ummm I mean King James)

The Lord's Prayer says, "Give us this day, our daily bread." Not give us a years supply of groceries.

Finnaly Lee, you make another solid point when you are open to the need to simplify what it is we have clung to as necessity. Some of our fantasys about what we need to be happy are the very things that will block our appreciation of all the steps along the journey.

And happiness is way over-rated anyway.

Jesus did not skip through His 33 years with a plastic smile and glib responses to life. His life was full of pathos, at least what we know of His public ministry.

What is our obsession with happiness at the expense of true meaning and potential intimacy with our fellow human beings.

We have been given back the garden and we are still hiding from God because we filter our view of Him through our own fickle natures.

What does it really entail, receiving grace for everything in our lives?
How should it play out in the daily scheme of things?
I think of it producing a state of being, a posture towards ourselves and those we come in contact with that causes us to really tune in to the real needs of others and dare to be vulnerable or misunderstood.

Didn't Jesus endure the contradiction of all of us sinners against His very self. I know it was because He was perfect love and that gave Him the authority to take this huge risk by dying for us.

He has left room for variables in life and it is those variables and nuances (where we are tempted to try and squeeze everyone into the same box),it is those variables where I think authenticity and genuine faith are displayed. You actually touch someones soul with the freedom you have in Christ, freedom from judging, freedom from needing to defend yourself, freedom from having to be right, needing constant understanding and on and on it goes.
People everywhere, not just in legalistic churches, are so wounded from being used to build another person's egotistical kingdom.

They are dying for someone to be an arm of God and make them sense the absolute wonder of the special place they have in God's heart and in the big picture.


I guess we all want to sense we have an essential reason for living on this planet, what could be more essential than having truth permeate you on the inside, being relaxed, genuine, and glad that you can be no one else but you and that God would have it no other way.

These are great things to think about and I love this thread because it is about living not just what we think, but what to do with all of this knowledge so that it is living and breathing, not mere words that tire us out from their redundent formulas that do not comfort and nurture in the moment.
Oh Boy, look at the time....
Patricia

[mercyme (mercyme)]

I am new to FN, but have been reading for some time. I want to thank you all because it confirmed what I thought over ten years ago when I left GGWO. I wish there had been a forum like this then, when I left and needed support. So I know this will help others. Not to wallow in it, but to know they are not "off" or "going negative" or "weird." All of which I was told I was. But that their God given common sense is still working, and they are not alone. I left when I still lived in Baltimore though my husband remained in the church until by the grace of God he got laid off a month later, and we moved away.
I still have friends there, I visited recently, and this forum moves me to pray for them. Thank you so much.

[giselle (giselle)]

mercyme,

Welcome to FN and thank you for your post. When you visited there recently, were you also at the church? What was your experience? If you do not wish to answer, I understand. God bless!

[lana (lana)]

Mercyme, Its good to hear you. I left from Lenox, and until I found Factnet by accident from Google, I had no one either. We are defining what happened to us and share a common bond. I too have family in Balt. and on the mission field. Some have been there for many years. I, with, you pray for them all.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Mercyme,
A friend of mine who is still a devotee of ggwo was all supportive and nice until I shared gently with them that God was leading me out. She could not consider leaving and God in the same sentence. She absolutely told me it was the devil leading me and my "damaged emotions" because God would never lead you out of "the body". This is a girl with amazing gifts and talents, we shared laughter and love of animals, and helped each other out often. But I failed the litmus test of loyalty to a man and suddenly the letters I got were prefaced with "I am telling you this because I care enough to be your enemy rather than see you fall away in deception. "
So, so sad. I am not angry about it though, more heartbroken and dismayed at the walls that are between us when God has torn down barriers between us not erected them.
After a recent car accident this friend caught wind of, she emailed me, that 'she was praying' and noticed 'how life wasn't going so well for me, was it?' In other words my circumstances in her mind were the inevitable acts of chastisement of a wayward child of God.
It was a test for me and thankfully I did not falter over her inuendos and even blatant assumptions, (maybe for a nanosecond).
It was immediately apparent to me that her world had gotten very small and the 'god' she was depending on was even smaller.
Pray she will see the light, she has banked on having all the desires of her heart met simply because she has been a 'good body member'.
If only she knew the wings that have been given to her to soar above to places beyond anything she could expect or dream.
If only she had the liberty to receive what God really desires to give her.
It truely makes my heart ache but the end of the matter has not been revealed for her or for myself so there is room for hope.
I am moved to prayer as well mercyme, and I know only the Spirit can brace a person for having their world collapse around them.

Lana, I don't think it was an accident that you found factnet!
Thank you for your prayers!

[mercyme (mercyme)]

I did go to church. There were less people than before. Someone told me they lost half. People are still leaving or deciding I have been told.
CHS spoke. Neither my husband nor I could see any back problems,he moved around easily it seemed.
He also did not seem to have dementia, I have worked in nursing homes,and have had relatives with that condition, and CHS was able to recall a lot of scripture. People were friendly, lots of pastors on the stage. Several people accepted the Lord. I said to my husband that God works in spite of who we are. All the sincere wonderful people who gave their lives to GG, I want to tell them it was not in vain. God does His thing in spite of who CHS is or in spite of who I am. But there is a whole big wonderful world of Christianity out there that these people are missing out on. That is sad. I really hated the pastor worship that went on. Gotta go, back tonight. Thanks for the kind words. You are all doing a good thing here.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Mercyme,
Bless you for having such forbearance and maturity. To sit in that chair discerning the idolatry and obvious denial of problems must be very troubling. Thank you for such neutral observations that speak for themselves and give us a snapshot of the situation.
Keep posting. I sense a tenderness from you and I think that is so from God.
Thanks again,
patricia

[giselle (giselle)]

mercyme,

Thanks so much for sharing your experience. I will be visiting with friends & family this coming week and I'm just so unsure of what to expect as I will end up at the convention at one time or another. I guess we'll see.

(Message edited by giselle on June 18, 2005)

[lana (lana)]

Isn't Mercyme an amazing testimony of the "inside"? Yes, she has a real insight and is very helpful to us. I want to hear more from her.

[dinaweena (dinaweena)]

hey, those of us 'showing up' to convention should figure out some way to find each other :-) I have a tattoo on the inside of my left wrist....anyone else?

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Great to read what so many of you said in the above posts!!

It is good to know that others have been able to admit we were in a mind control cult. It has nothing to do with being bitter. It has everything to do with truth. I was in a mind control cult that pretended it was an evangelical Christian churh. Its name was 'The Bible Speaks'. It got caught many times in its cult activities and one time got caught so badly it had to move to a new state and rename itself 'Greater Grace World Outreach'. Now the cult leader has lost control of his cult and many of the leaders who were earning a living and acting like they were superior to the drones of the cult for many years have decided to leave.

Most of the people in the latest exodus do not go because they have intergrity, they flee because it doesn't work anymore. They are going to use their cult skills to reel in a new bunch of suckers.

May we all face whatever was wrong with us in the first place that caused us to chose a cult over reality. May we become 'cult free' not 'cult bait'.

[david_munson (david_munson)]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>It's funny how the Lord works.I was dragged out to another state.I have no regrets about it,yet at the time I wondered what God was up to.

I can't say that I didn't learn alot from GG.At the same time I can't say that I bought into everything that was preached either.You see,I have always been a body member.Not in the sense that GGWO teaches but in the sense that it is applied universaly.Members here,members there.None with a corner on the Truth.All with something to add.

Any time a pastor made me feel like I was spiritually inferior to them.I understood that they where hyperspiritual.Which simply stated means spiritually immature and arrogent.
If there is one thing I cannot stand,it is arrogence.It makes me very angry.

We are ,all that are in Christ,equal.Period.
The Word says that our attitude towards one another is to be thus,
Philippians 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
Herein is the true mark of humility.

I Love all of you.We are one with each other and a part of one another in a deep spiritual way.

May what I say bring blessing and edification to you.
In His Love,

Dave</font>}

[mercyme (mercyme)]

It is so difficult to think I was in a cult. It's easier to think it was just a bad church. I never thought "cult" could happen to me. I came into The Bible Speaks in a branch ministry, after 5 or 6 yrs, we went to Baltimore, now GGWO, thinking I was going to have an incredible spiritual experience. After we had been there one week, I knew it was a mistake, I cried and asked my husband if we could go back. But that wasn't very practical, and we stayed around 4 years. CHS was always nice to us, you know he had that ability to remember everyone's name and make you feel special. But those leaders around him were so strange. There were a couple who treated my husband, and others, like garbage. They would yell at him, and others, in front of everyone.
I was frequently chastised because I would say what I thought. Rebuked I guess is the word. I spoke up about people thinking Carl could do no wrong. One woman said "my husband doesn't need to hear that". I did not fit in, but that was a good thing. One of my friends who is still there, is starting to see some things, the others have been there since Maine, it would be so hard for them to accept reality. For some it is the only Christian teaching they have ever had. They don't even read books by anyone other than a GG author.
By the way, "Abba's Child" by Brennan Manning is one of the most healing books out there, for anyone. God Bless.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

I went to the bookstore and bought the only two books they had by Brennan Manning:"A Glimpse of Jesus" and "The Relentless Tenderness of Jesus".
Now I just have to decide which one to read first.

Has anyone ever read anything by Frederick Buechner, he has written a book entitled, "Telling Secrets". I haven't obtained it yet but the reviews are good from readers and it has to do with healing coming from a place of vulnerability. It sounds like it would complement what so many voices on FN are sharing-opening up and finding out we are not alone.
Did you ever hear of him, Bruder, Bob Brinton, Jack? He is really a prolific writer and he is definitely a Christian who admittedly never "felt at home" in many churches.
Just wondering.
Patricia

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Sojourner, I've never heard of Frederick Buechner, but I don't really try to keep up on current authors. We do have one of Manning's books, but my daughter has it in half-read book limbo.

I strongly believe that vulnerability and honesty and intimacy are things we each need from others in order to find the kinds of healing we need. And that when the Spirit gives us an individual we find we can open up to in this way, then true ministry in the Spirit is likely to take us there. We're all afraid of being hurt more, and of possibly hurting others. It's risky. Especially if you're creative in spirit. There's a lot of law floating around. People avoid deeper intimacy because of fear; but we're supposed to live out of a base of love that casts out fear.

Here's another angle. We each have many aspects to our personality and spiritual makeup, variations in intellect and emotions and in orientation. There are other people who can release different aspects of our makeup from isolation. God intentionally made each of us the way He did. He means for these various aspects to come into play. He has ways for us to be knit together. Because your makeup is so personal, so unique; you can be made to feel that opening up and expressing the nuances of it is selfish. But God intentionally put all those little touches there. And He designed them to fit in with others in particular ways, places and times. As we walk in the Spirit, does it not make sense that He would show us the hows and whos?

By the way, I really liked your post from 1:09 pm yesterday. It was outstanding. I pulled a copy of it off to keep.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Thank you Bob for taking the time to write and respond. I have to be brief because I am running late...but I agree about intentional nuances that God has placed in us to provoke expressions that would be forever lost if we were intimidated into silence.

I think the church at large has this wierd concept of humility that is more like self-effacement. Such a trap.

For some reason most of my life I have taken an apologetic posture, almost a guilt complex for just being born. I've never understood why.

How can we cast out this fear unless we are bold enough to embrace a love that know no bounds and yet is a love that completes us at the most intricate levels of our being.

There was a time, during what I will call the "discovery phase" when the person of Christ was drawing me into this beautiful, secure place.
I remember everything being so mystical, things happened that would astonish me. Along with three or four close friends we were in constant dialogue about what we were feeling and thinking...we felt so free. I remember the sun was never brighter, the grass never greener. We were glowing (and driving our families nuts!)

There was the Jesus movement, and it was just a charmed period..but it did not last long.

I can't finish this off now, but Bob, I appreciate all of your posts, they are so full of considerations and pose questions that motivate us to want more of the fullness of God and all we were meant to experience as human beings.
Later maybe. Thanks again for sharing and for your encouragement.
Patricia

[lana (lana)]

Bob and Sojourner, I had that beautiful "charmed ", period in my life. He showed us himself! Both of your posts express so much how I feel. I can't add anything to them.

[blastfromthepast (blastfromthepast)]

I am new to FN, but have been reading what all of you have been writing. I became a "member" of the "BS" (hmmm, short for bull**** ministry?) back in 1975. I moved to Lenox fresh out of high school in '76. I have been an "x" member for a long time now. The memories and feelings of what I experienced during my journey through the BS is far removed from my cellular memory!! Although, reading some of what has been written on FN has saddened me. It was certainly a bitter/sweet time in my life and one I seldom look back on.
I do miss a lot of the people that I grew up with and would love to see some of you.
WHen is the reunion this summer?

for now.. happy &amp; healed!

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

The reunion is August 6th. There's a thread devoted to it that's been bumped up.

[lana (lana)]

Sojourner, I couldn't find your E-Mail Add. Would you please write to me. We have some things in common I would like to share with you. ffm2000@webtv.net

[blastfromthepast (blastfromthepast)]

Thanks. do you mean the reunion has been bumped up, or the "thread"? I'll check it out.
I am hoping to see a bunch of old friends &amp; what I called family back in the days.
These are all the people that I grew up with in the speaks and have fond memories of-
Marty, Ed, Bob &amp; Lana, Steve Q, BJ, Melanie B, Patty M., Jim &amp; Becky C, Janet K, Brad C, Mike G,
and so many more that are still dear to my heart!
I have one very dear friend that is still in Baltimore and very much involved with GGC. We never talk about our differences, but have remained close friends for over 20 years. I believe this friend really understands God's unconditional love and has shown me and many others nothing less than that.

[itsahokes (itsahokes)]

The thread was bumped up - the Reunion is Sat., Aug. 6 I believe, tho BJ is going a different day lol. (There is a separate date for heathens)

My sister and I were fine friends throughout all the years I was out and she was in; as with you and your friend, we seldom talked about our differences. On the rare occasion when I visited, I met some wonderful people such as the Ensors. Intuition works pretty well in connecting with like-minded, like-hearted people. I gravitate toward like-hearted ones and it's automatic that our beliefs aren't an issue. I don't advertise mine and it's rare for anyone to actually ask.

[mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale)]

blastfromthepast.....hey there...welcome to FN!

[blastfromthepast (blastfromthepast)]

Thanks. It's killng me to find out who "mrsdrysdale" is??? give me a hint?
I was in the speaks a long time! How long were you in? did you hang with the cirlce of people that I mentioned?
I'll give you a hint about who I am...I loved to play softball &amp; basketball..I babysat a lot for some of the young pastors kids and I got invited to a lot of events that went on in SB. (Lisa Schaller was one of my "mentors". thank God I have a rebellious spirit and I never totally bought in to the whold body thing.

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

How about you just say who you are?

mrsdrsdale is ethelmertz is Linda, I forgot your last name Linda. She told us on another thread. Linda is from PA.

[blastfromthepast (blastfromthepast)]

I don't think I know Linda, at least not yet.
I hope to meet many of you at the reunion.
Loise- is that your real name?

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

I was Louise Maguire in my TBS cult days.

I can't stand trying to guess.

[blastfromthepast (blastfromthepast)]

Lori Mckenney

[deb (deb)]

Hello, and thank you, one and all!!!

This thread has been enlightening and poignant. I've printed some of it to read at leisure, (Lee, Marty, Pressing on, Sojourner, Bob, etc.) but I keep going back, especially, to part of Jack's post:


"How does this sound? God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son. So, Jesus left Heaven every Friday night and came to planet earth to hand out tracts. He never went alone and He never dressed like a worldling. All His work was confined to the streets because no one in his right mind would listen to Him in a university classroom, a surgical ward, a bank boardroom, or the State House legislature. Earth was a dirty place, so He rode the bus back to Heaven the same night and sang “It’s bubbling” all the way back to Heaven.

Clearly, Jesus was different. He left Heaven and immersed himself in earth life. He took on Himself our form and nature, our language, family traditions, our manual work and, ultimately, even our sin. He was not worldwide; He was amazingly local. He was not 24-hour; He slept every night. He was not a visiting missionary; he was here until he died. He was not clergy. He was not aloof. He was not “holier than thou.” He ate meals with sinners. Heck, he lived with sinners. Yet, He dignified all that we do, all that we live, because He brought divinity into the very center of it. He brought God into everything we do.

God loved the world. The artists(!) The intellectuals(!) He loves the world. He loves THE WORLD!"


That's the Jesus I was drawn to, fell in love with, and, sadly, thought I had lost after being disillusioned with TBS many years ago. God was faithful, though, that even when I gave it all up, thinking that I'd never be able to trust that genuine fellowship, communion, friendships could be present in my life again, there He was, with his raggedy, unpretentious, "down to earth" group of believers that were not afraid to go to the scarey places with me, the places where we could truly question God without feeling guilty, admit that we have doubts, admit that we don't always care about spiritual things, etc.

To those of you new to the exit ramp, you are in my prayers. Please be kind to yourselves, give yourselves permission to question, grieve, and, yes, even heal. You are not alone!

Deb

P.S., another wonderful Christian writer is Philip Yancey. One of his books is: "Soul Survivor, How Thirteen Unlikely Mentors Helped My Faith Survive the Church." Just the title alone made me run out and buy it, and I was not disappointed!

[deb (deb)]

Welcome Lori McKenney (Blastfromthe past). I didn't know you well, but your name brought a smile to my face!!!

Deb

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Deb,
I loved that book. The stories were amazing, that is where I read about Frederick Buechner. Wasn't C.Everett Coop's story fascinating. He refused to be manipulated by the extreme right wing people and fulfilled his calling as Surgeon General to all the people. I like what Phillip Yancey did in that book, he showcased important stories...like we do.
Patricia

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Hi Lori:

I knew you well. I am glad you are well. I knew you when I was on my way out. We used to go do our laundry together. You stayed and got hitched. I split and got drunk. It looks like you are going to Winslow Park. Good! It will great to see so many of us in the light of reality. It will be a true 'blast from the past'.

[blastfromthepast (blastfromthepast)]

It's been a long enlightening journey for me. One filled with a deeper understanding of who God realy is and how he works in my life. I have gone through some heart wrenching situations and have always know to trust in the God of "my faith". I have never been disappointed. LIfe has been very difficult at times, but I've not done it alone. Many "growing pains", and many hard life lessons, but my heart is still tender and faithful to the one I call "Father". It's a heart to heart genuine love relationship that cannot be replaced by anything here on earth.
I have three beautiful kids, and 5 grandchildren!!
Life is good!
Do I know you Deb?

[blastfromthepast (blastfromthepast)]

Louise- oh my gosh! Life is funny, isn't it?
I remember doing my laundry with you! too funny!
I am no longer "hitched", but I do have a beautiful family.
It will be good to see you on the 6th.
God has been so faithful to me!!

[deb (deb)]

Hi Lori,
I'm not sure if you'd remember me - - - I used to be married to Michael Walsh (that ended over 15 years ago). I'll see you in Maine in August though, I hope!

Sojourner - yes I loved that section about C. Everett Coop, and Frederick Buechner, and Robert Coles, and how about C.K. Chesterton, what a trip he was!! I think I'm going to re-read the book, now that you've got me thinking about it.

Louise, how come you never invited me to do laundry back then? Of course I know why, but it might have helped me to leave even earlier, but then I guess I never would have had Seth or Deidre. Looking forward to seeing Bob Dylan and Willie Nelson with you!!!

Love to all,
Deb

[blastfromthepast (blastfromthepast)]

It will be great to reunite with everyone in Aug.

Louise- was it you I went to Gloucester, Mass. with one time??? Oh, we were such sinners!!! LOL

[mrsdrysdale (mrsdrysdale)]

Blast....Hi Lori. I was Linda Kern back in the day.... email me and we'll see if we travelled in the same circles!http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/smile.gifzMy email address is on the email thread.

Louise...you're too funny. I love your posts. I think I remember you too. I was in Lenox 79-81ish.

[blastfromthepast (blastfromthepast)]

Hi,
This is all new to me, so I'm not sure how to find your e-mail address on the "thread"?
I got married in Lenox in '79, so I'm sure our paths crossed.

[louise_connolly (louise_connolly)]

Hi again Lori,

That was me who went to Gloucester, MA with you. I had Valerie Elkin's red Camaro and I was speeding down 128 to Gloucester, MA. You said if we got a flat tire right now we're going to die. I kept going. Hopefully, Valerie isn't reading. If so, sorry Valerie. Ironically, many years later I drive up 128 to go to work in Gloucester.

[lee (lee)]

Preston,
I'm still thinking about the short exchange we had about your branch ministry father seeing the difficulties in associating with either the innies or the outties. I wonder if you would be able to share anymore of your observations of a family in that position. Is it the greatest opportunity they may face or the worst of times? Certainly, lots of grace in needed. Yes? Internal turmoil, or is that a settled issue? Is it just a practical consideration? I know if you lived in Boston or some other high priced area, you may feel yourself panic if you had to face buying or renting a new home, etc. If your body is showing signs of aging and you take a look at insurance or paying out of pocket, you may panic/scream/cry in despair!
Just tell me to go away if this is too upfront and personal.

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Louise,
The image of you speeding in a red camaro with a petrified passenger is just too comical. You make me laugh girl! I love to drive fast, a las I need a new car first. (Speed was not a factor in my crash).
Lee,
I never thought about how challenging growing older would be...there just seem to be those who never have to want for anything and then the majority who know they could be a paycheck away from being out on the streets.
When I freak out about things I think of the
passage, (can't remember reference) but it says:
"I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their seed go begging for bread."
What can we do but pass through this life with only the guarentee of His love. His love is what should filter our view of our circumstances not the circumstances dictating to us how God thinks and feels about us. Big difference.
One is a a constant we can depend on when all hell is breaking loose and the other is subject to winds of change, adversity, up and down like a seesaw ride.

[johncollins]

New to FN?

Regular reader, scrolled right to the most recent post on this thread?

Either way, I urge you to read or reread this entire thread. I've read it all several times in the past month, and am delighted by so much of it!

Some of those posting above were friends of mine 15-20+ years ago, and FN enabled us to become reacquainted. Others have become friends solely because of FN.

Much of what's written here would be interpreted as an "evil report" in the world according to bs/gg. If someone in gg reads this thread, they simply can not talk it through.

Isn't that sad?

Are you old enough to remember the presidency of Ronald Reagan, and his 1985 meeting with Gorbachev in a boathouse in Geneva? One writer described it:

"This was during the height of a nuclear standoff. They met to talk about the arms race and, subsequently, talk about peace between the two sides.

"It was only the second U.S.-U.S.S.R. summit in seven years. The two sides just didn’t trust each other. It had been leaked that Reagan, the classic Cold Warrior, had called Gorbachev “a diehard Communist” and there was little reason to think the two sides would get along... It was right after lunch with the tensions still high and both sides ready to return to the verbal war, that Reagan suggested the two take a walk, “to get a little fresh air....”

"After that point everything changed. What should have been a 15-minute stroll turned into an hour-and-a-half meeting of the minds. These two men walked around a lake and wound up in a boathouse sitting in front of a fireplace. They talked about movies, they talked about family and they talked about things that made them real people to each other. And in that moment in history when these two men are laughing together, because they had become friends, history records that these walls had to come down personally before the walls could come down between the nations."

So the president of the free world and the general secretary of the Soviet Communist Party talked. Shared stories. The walls came down. The destiny of the world was changed as a result.

If you're in gg and can't see your way clear to post here, we understand. Your entire way of interpreting the world has led you to believe that even talking with those who disagree will corrupt you. It's understandable that you don't want to post here and be identified as one with questions. But - there are many who have sat where you sit, and are willing both to help you and also safeguard your anonymity.

Perhaps the destiny of your world will change as a result.

Check the email thread (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/9835.html?1140253605). You'll probably find an old friend or three whom you can write to. I can almost guarantee you that they will be delighted to hear from you, and will do nothing but love you and try to help you.

If you're really worried about them knowing who you are, do what I did at first: go to Hotmail.com (http://hotmail.com/), create a free, anonymous email account, and write to them anonymously. Tell then the truth: you're not ready to tell them who you are, but you need someone to talk with. No one I wrote to that way ever demanded I identify myself, condemned for for still being part of gg, nor did anything but make themselves available to help me in whatever way I wanted them to. i.e.: none of them laid any trips on me as to what I "must" do or anything like that.

Try it. If you don't like the results, simply stop accessing your Hotmail account.

John

[lee]

thanks,John
good reading! good advice!

[san]

lee and jack
this tread is amazing
i have been off for months but just received a call from an old friend in SB. i am very pleased to hear the turn of event's. i knew that one day God would reveal and set free. i will never forget the day at your home iee and the fact that you shared the truth with me. thank you from the bottom my hear. 2o years later.
sandy

[bean]

Jack Leonard, hope I have the right person did you have a brother who taught art class in Lenox? if so how is he doing? he was my favorite teacher I don't know if i was his favorite student but he was very inspirational to me.just wanted to say thanks to him for all the encouragement, and I was also wondering if you knew someone named Chris Jackson I went to Puerto Rico with him and also did sunday school ministry in Hudson N.Y. with him

[mercyreigns]

i know Chris and his wife very well but will not post whereabouts to a stranger. If you are friends of his you can email me with your name and I will call them to see if they know you. that's the best I can do for you out of respect for their privacy.

Nancy Curra

[mercyreigns]

inmercyirjoice@yahoo.com

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
That's wisdom Nancy.
Hope you are doing well.
God's Love,
Dave

</font>}

[sam_i_am]

GGWO, Factnet, the churches in mexico and the US that I know remind me of Colson's quip:

"Sometimes the church is like Noah's Ark: The stench inside would be unbearble if it weren't for the storm outside."

[bean]

inmercyirjoice i tried to send you an e-mail it came back saying no such address don't worry about it i dont really want to bother chris just had a funny memory of him and wanted to know if he remembered the night he prayed for a young man in CAtskill N.Y. who was about to have his first professional fight and chris prayed God would make him champion of the world .I can't remember his exact words but i remember he was wearing his long black leather coat and clogs and praying up a storm. the reason it stuck in my mind was the guy he prayed for was huge and muscular but had a high funny voice his name MIKE TYSON not joking i followed his fights after that and we all know what happned. so I was just curious to know if he remembers that night at all . thanks,
stranger

[mercyreigns]

sorry it is inmercyirejoice@yahoo.com

[bean]

did you ask him if he remembers that night ?