AN INFORMAL SURVEY

[rjfernalld]

When you finally escaped the mind control of GG, and you spoke out in any way against the ministry, were you, like many people(and it is happening still),accused of being mentally ill?

Did your one time pastor in a gossipy fashion spread rumors that you were mentally ill once you left the ministry and thus what you say about the ministry cannot be taken seriously?

Did your pastor attempt to convince your children, husband, or wife or friends that you were mentally ill because you "went against God's man" and are to be marked and/or shunned?

Did the pastor, the leadership or its minions in any way attempt to discredit you , your story, your experience in the cult, or your ability to communicate that experience by using the accusation of mental illness silence or foece you to be silent?

Were you ever purposly silent about what you know about GG out of fear of being labled crazy knowing you might lose family members?

I have seen all of this happen,( and it is still happening as I write this) from the highest to the lowest:from Carl to Stambovsky over the years and consider this behavior to be a classic example of the most disgusting and dangerous part of what most all the pastors past and present of GGWO exhibit: narcisstic personality disorder that requires your loyalty and complete submission via domination to leadership rather than encourages your loving submission to God's Holy Spirit.

[dancer]

Maybe it be better to ask people if they were not labeled as such? I mean most people I know who left under situations I am aware got called something off the wall.

I don't know anybody who left who didn't get a good slap verbally.

Silent? 3 Year cycle holds true for a lot of people. I know I am a big mouth but I didn't talk about certain things for 5 years plus.

[rjfernalld]

I have a long time friend who was in Lenox when I was, moved to Baltimore when the Exodus from here happened and they made her such a paraiah when she and her husband left it waqs disgusting.

They said she was "mentally unstable" because she did not heed the words of the pastor, Carl said she was "certifiable" because she called them a cult, and they almost succeeded in breaking up her marriage, and attempted to teach her children avoid her because her mind was "evil and poisoned".

It was criminal what they did to her. It is criminal what they are still doing to good people who love God and want to live without the pastoral interference GGWO interjects into their relationship with God.

[cordell]

"Mentally unstable" is a relative term when referring to TBS/GGWO. The organization characteristically attracted, employed and was run by individuals who could be described as "mentally unstable". Kinda like one jerkwad calling the other a dickweed.

[rjfernalld]

So which are you, Cordell...the dickweed or the jerkwad?

I disagree with you wholeheartedly.

Most of the people who are recruited by cults are intelligent, wellread, balanced and normal individuals. The cult experience is characterized, especially in GGWO's case in indoctrinating it's members with its own brand of lies and weird doctrines by circumventing member's critical thinking processes...this is fact, not fiction.

The most well balanced human being can be easily made to believe anything by methods of mind control employed by GGWO and other cults. While it is true that every organization like GGWO can entice an unstable element to join, the majority of it's adherents start out as your general run of the mill human...people who genuinly want to serve God and are fed lies...pretty lies, lies we want to believe are true.

Once one discovers that the place is a cesspool of liars, users and mind control, THEN we discover that unstable 'oh my God how did I end up in a cult' feeling and we find we don't trust anyone, most of all ourselves.

Then when pastor dickwad accuses us of "mental illness" we almost wonder if he is right, then we finally come to the conclusion the it was the CULT that made us UNSTABLE.

Not over the cult yet, Cordell? I have long suspected as much. It answers a lot of questions...

[cordell]

Over the cult? I sleep and eat well. Love to gut catfish in front of my kids. Can spit further than you. Laugh at stupid commercials and people who walk around with a puritanical broomstick up their backside whether they're "liberal" or "conservative".

You see, you are always confounding things. You compounded an incestuous relationship between dickweed and jerkwad and came up with a dickwad. I think that says a lot about you dearie, why not a jerkweed? I think this was a Freudian indication of that ol' envy thing going on again. And if you think that more than just a tiny few of GGWO types were "well educated and wellread" you were listening to the wrong song (http://www.geocities.com/foodedge/sounds/likeanut.wav)

[rjfernalld]

Maybe they were not well educated and well read when you were there as a student, Jim, but most of us were when I attended classes at SSB.

Perhaps you never noticed that over the years the recruitment strategy evolved...Most of us had high IQs, had more than a few years of secular college and had great potential for educational situations.

The hippy dippy crowd was no longer the norm...the recruiters were instructed to find the brightest among those to be indoctrinated...it increased Carl's delusional dignitas to have more mainstream people on campus and in his school, as the flip flops and long haired hippy crowd were an embarassment by the early 80's. Even those still around from the earlier years changed their ways or would have lost their coveted jobs.

Campus life was geared to a more "acceptable" status...one Carl failed in the long run to achieve...people were even sent to area secular colleges to earn degrees so the schhool might attain accreditation.

As usual you are confounding your experience with big daddy Carl with the experience of others. The instruction given in private was to recruit only the smartest and most promising people to SSB.

If you had physical, and/or emotional problems that embarassed the ministry, you were sent home or escorted off campus by the police if you were deemed undesirable. I saw it happen more than once. And it still is happening.

[lmao]

So for the unenlightened among us (thinking of myself), What were the lies and recruitment strategies that tbs/gg used?

[gone_to_pa]

Rj,

WOW, and this isn't directed to you directly, but in general, " the way we address one another here is if we can't stand one another" I guess this is the last blast before we have to start to pay. Lighten Up would ya? You all ate making me tense just reading.
Back to topic. I seen with my own two eyeballs that the "MEN" were deemed rebellious and off, as "out of the geographical will of God. Now the women on the toehr hand were associated with conversations like, " Are you alright, you don't seem to be alright. Have you been seeing anyone about the way your acting, I'm worried about you. What medications are you taking?" Then as they would walk away from that person and approach another, they would say some dung like this in the name of being able to pray in specifics. " You know Jane Doe don't you? Well, ever since her and old whats his name haven't been coming around as much, she looks like she's ready for a breakdown. Do you know if she is on any meds? Well, I just told you this so you could pray for her, I'm starting to wonder if she needs to see a shrink or if she's bi-polar or something and doesn't even know it. SHE'S ACTING CRAZY! I THINK SHE'S LOST IT."

THE MEN WERE JUST OFF, WHILE THE WOMEN WERE MANYTIMES MENTALLY UNSTABLE. If they had a child within the last year, it was "post pardum" plus/

Does anyone want to comment on why women were thought of in that light. Was it because they were just weak old "responders" And we were the Big Brave initiaters. Was it because women were supposed to be responders?

[dancer]

Jim don'take me come down there.

[rjfernalld]

lmao

As far as recruitment goes, it was kinda like this...an example...

Teen Bible study, say in Albany, NY. I used to do these studies every week, a bunch of us did. We were instructed to discover the kid with the 'potential', that is, the brightest, best dressed, comes from a non-slum home kid, and recruit him for bible college. Befriend him, encourage the idea that he is the best and brightest, the kind of person God is looking for....to show the people that God is not just for ninnies, fools and dullards...

We did do just that. I recall one kid from Troy (maybe Albany) I'll call him Jack. Black kid. Parents were SUNY professors. We heavily recruited this kid. Extremely intelligent, well spoken, parents were well off financially...they had us strongly on this kids case for months and every other kid like him. He represented the kind of kid the school wanted. We were NOT permitted to spend much time with the poor kids, the unwed mother kids, kids from the projects etc.

It was that kind of atmosphere...as an example.

[rjfernalld]

" the way we address one another here is if we can't stand one another" I guess this is the last blast before we have to start to pay. Lighten Up would ya? You all ate making me tense just reading.

Tom

Cordell and I are friends...we seldom agree as everyone knows, his sarcasm is every bit as edgy as mine, but he is always the first to call me when I am in the hospital...no big fight here.

However right now I find the points I made on my little survey extremely important. To answer your question about why women are marginalized and called crazy, mentally ill etc....GGWO has little respect for what they deem the lesser sex. Always have, always will.

Carl and his cronies are sexist pigs,domineering a**holes who think women should be seen and not heard and should in all ways SUBMIT SUBMIT SUBMIT...and if they do not they are mentally ill.

Question answered?

[lmao]

In over 20 years in tbs/gg, I never recall receiving any instructions on recruiting a certain type of person for Bible college or anything else. Where did you receive such instructions and from whom (not looking for names necessarily but positions in the church)?

[coral]

This brings back memories. I remember once when I had met a woman with a heart of gold in Baltimore. Pat D. Her daughter and granddaughter lived near me. She asked me to please get in touch with them. I promised. I was going to give the grandaughter voice lessons and just get to know them and invite them to church. I really just wanted to give voice lessons, because I love that age, and I was starting to be uncomfortable about inviting people to church.. I mentioned it to someone in front of Pastor. Whoahh! His response was something I will never forget.
"We don't go to see people to be friends. We invite them to church. That's it. Got it? If she wants to come hear the word, fine, but otherwise, leave it alone. In fact, she knows where we are, so don't bother calling again, Got it?"
I had just spoken with the little girl, and felt horrible that I could not call her back. Now everything makes sense. Pastor did not want me to hear an evil report. Befriending the kid or not.
There were tons of instances where Pastor did not show interest in certain types of people, ignored me on several occasions. Others he definately favored. Men that could work for the church and kids. People that were already in submission were pretty much ignored.

[sidethorn]

Thanks Coral for this last post. I also saw how some got favor and attention at GGWO while others got rejected, ignored, and alienated. If the GGWO inner circle thought you had something to offer them and their man made programs, you got attention. If they thought you we're a good prospect for being totally loyal and submitted to the GGWO leadership, teaching, and would fit into their cliques, you got attention. If they thought you we're a free thinker or would put anything or anyone (like God or loved ones) above them, you got rejection and condemnation. GGWO is all about conditional love and control. The teachings and man made programs of GGWO always take precidence over friendships, bonds between loved ones, and even people seeking God apart from GGWO control. Fit in and submit and you may be liked. Don't fit in or submit and you can count on being rejected, judged, and probably marked as an "evil influence" or something worse.

[rjfernalld]

lmao

It was continuously implied...."he is a better prospect", "that's just the kind of kid we want at SSB", "that girl isn't exactly SSB material"

These all came from the study leader, the teen study "pastor in charge of all the studies, and I personally heard the head of the Bus Ministry mention these attitudes on more than one occasion.

Remember how these lessons were taught? You were given the understated suggestions, and taught to understand that your role was to please....you thought you were doing these things to please God, but eventually when you woke up from the GGWO fog, you discovered that all those suggestions were designed to please the ministry.

[sidethorn]

Oh, how corrupt GGWO leaders divert peoples' love and devotion for God to themselves for their own selfish uses while brainwashing the people to think this is all part of serving God.

[cape_cod]

It should be firmly established that TBS/GGWO ALWAYS followed the MONEY trail which was ALWAYS their MAIN interest in a particular individual from the very start. The more MONEY one had - the MORE the so called "ministry" was interested in them. Period.

P.S. - Thank you Carl for setting SUCH an outstanding example of what TRUE Christianity is all about.

[rjfernalld]

Exactly true cc...money was the ultimate vetting process, the main consideration and the true yardstick in any situation.

[sidethorn]

How they loved to have rich tithers giving and sucking up to them!!!

[cordell]

The nicer your boobs and butt the better the prospect. And that game still goes.

[dancer]

Jim get off your knees and keep your hands to yourself

[cordell]

aerosol

[lmao]

Maybe I am wrong but when I think of mind control and cultic methods, I think of groups who have highly organized systems of indoctrination with tight control.

The only thing tightly controlled at gg is the protection of the leadership. The only case I know of where someone was targeted for recruitment was Dovedenis(sp?).

Being nice to people and inviting them to church is not love bombing. Neither is greeting them at the door and finding them a seat. An invitation for salvation is not brainwashing.

The "finished work message" set many people free to find God. The problem was that the preacher was a hypocrite and he invented doctrines to protect himself. It was never about controlling people, but controlling information. People got hurt along the way. Chs used sincere people to build himself a little kingdom where he could do what he enjoyed. He thought much too highly of himself.

[cordell]

The so-called "finished work message" as taught by CHS and GGWO is both erroneous and heretical and emerges from the 'higher life' movement and gnosticism--if you were set free by that you need to reconsider your "freedom".

[daved]

Recently Pastor Jerry, from Canada called The Grace Hour and mentioned resting in the Finished Work Written Word of God.

Has anyone ever seen a copy of "the Finished Work <u>Written Word of God"</u>?

Daved

[whatsup]

cordell, what do you mean that the "finished work message" is erroneous and heretical...how did CHS teach it wrong...I always thought that was one of the things that GG got right. Do you mean that they twisted it to imply that you can sin with no consequences, because I do think they did that. But overall I thought they taught it right and I am very interested to know if what we learned was wrong in other ways and why

[cordell]

My suggestion whatsup is that you don't take my word for it--read Francis Schaeffer's work on the subject by the same name. Carl's version led to his development of the "principle of rebound" and "since God has wiped our sins out of his memory--to bring them up again or to admit to them would double the sin".

Ask yourself this question, did you ever hear CHS ask forgiveness for or admit to a single specific sin against another believer? Why not?

[orangetwopay]

DAMN STRAIGHT

speak herecies, get a mouth full of blood from the Lord!

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2006/08/get-mouth-of-blood-from-lord.html

[cordell]

OTP...I can only thank God I never had you guys (Lord help me!) as students when I taught high school...I can only imagine the graffitti.

Here's a link (http://www.gnpcb.org/product/1581340036) to Schaeffer's book.

[cordell]

Al Martin on the Crucial Importance of Justification! (http://www.sermonaudio.com/play.asp?ID=817061690&amp;sourceID=tbcnj)

[cordell]

<font color="0000ff">The hippy dippy crowd was no longer the norm...</font>

Shoot RJ, Mr. Hippydippyflopsywopsybabblejabble runs the fekkin' place...that's the crowd that is now in charge!

"Uhhh...uhh it is really a-uuhhmayyzzing...how God has really led us so far...uuhhhh...to where we are now...uuhhh...listening to the marvelous...FAAAAAARRRRRRHHHHHTTTT!!!!!!