The Still Small Voice

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

I mentioned this passage 1 Kings 19:12 on Dave Drago’s thread about moving on. I think this is one more passage many of us have misunderstood for years as a result of being poorly taught and not reading carefully:

“And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.”

God was not in the wind.
God was not in the earthquake.
God was not in the fire.
After the fire a still small voice.

We look at the passage as being proof of the Holy Spirit speaking to us internally like some Jiminy Cricket who is always there to guide us. There is always the still small voice, right? CHS is not the only one who has taught this error, a lot of devotional writers have also contributed to the error, and our desire to be led by God inwardly in our spirits is very strong. We want a hotline to heaven. We want to be able to say “God led me to do this.” When we speak of the “still small voice” of God inside us we destroy all arguments against us and our experience however seemingly reasonable—who can argue with what “God told me in my heart?”

Read the verse again:

After the earthquake there was a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire there was a voice, a soft whisper.

Does it say, “God was in the soft whisper?” Does it say “and God was in the still small voice?” No. We assume that He was in it.

Consider this version:
“and after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a sound of sheer silence.”

I will agree that God was there in the silence and that it was silent or that there was a sound of a gentle wind blowing. Elijah wraps his face in his mantle.

Now consider the context:
God or an angel speaks to Elijah clearly and audibly in verses 5,7,9 and 11 prior to this “small voice” and in verses 13 and 15 – 18 following the “voice.”

Rarely do we consider what God says quite clearly in these passages when we hear sermons on the “still small voice.”

God asks Elijah, “What are you doing here Elijah?”

Where was he?

He was on Horeb, the mount of God, or Sinai where God gave the commandments and reinitiated His covenant with Israel. Look at Elijah’s answer before the “voice”:

1 Kings 19:10 (ESV)
He said, "I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away."

After the wind, earthquake, fire and the voice, God and Elijah have this exchange:

1 Kings 19:13-14 (ESV)
And when Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And behold, there came a voice to him and said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?" [14] He said, "I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, thrown down your altars, and killed your prophets with the sword, and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away."

Why did Elijah go to Horeb, to Sinai of all places? What happened there? Were there any similar events in another time?

Exodus 33:18-23 (ESV)
Moses said, "Please show me your glory."
[19] And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name 'The Lord.' And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. [20] But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live." [21] And the Lord said, "Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, [22] and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. [23] Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen."

This happened on Mt. Horeb. The Lord wrote on the tablets with his own hand and during the time on Horeb with Moses:

Exodus 34:5-7 (ESV)
The Lord descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord. [6] The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, [7] keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children, to the third and the fourth generation."

Elijah was fleeing in fear from Jezebel the wife of Ahab. Jezebel had made Baal worship the religion of Israel, supplanting the worship of God and she slaughtered His prophets. God had previously hidden Elijah from her attacks in her own home country, keeping him with a poor widow, but now Elijah wanted to die—so he went to the place where God had made a covenant with Israel. This covenant included promises and warnings that Elijah knew well:

Exodus 34:12-16 (ESV)
Take care, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you go, lest it become a snare in your midst. [13] You shall tear down their altars and break their pillars and cut down their Asherim
[14] (for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God), [15] lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and when they whore after their gods and sacrifice to their gods and you are invited, you eat of his sacrifice, [16] and you take of their daughters for your sons, and their daughters whore after their gods and make your sons whore after their gods.

This was precisely the situation with Ahab and Jezebel. So Elijah returned to Horeb, in his harried mind the last of the Prophets of God—ready to die before the Lord. So he reverently held up to God the very covenant that He’d made with Israel hundreds of years before:
“I have been very jealous for the Lord, the God of hosts. For the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant…”

Elijah also remembered that his own office had been instituted on Horeb, because the people did not want to hear God—because to hear His voice was painful—they needed a Mediator:

Deut. 18:15-19 (ESV)
"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— [16] just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.' [17] And the Lord said to me, 'They are right in what they have spoken. [18] I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. [19] And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.”

Just as Abraham offered up the promised son without whom there would be no fulfillment, Elijah offered himself to God in the place where God had promised always to give his people a Prophet—“ I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away."

There had been fire, thunder and the sound of loud trumpets blaring as God spoke from Horeb before during Moses’s time. The people begged for a Mediator. God granted their request. Elijah knew his station that he was called to speak for God and now he was to die— so he thought.

God had nothing to add or take away from what He had already promised in the covenant He’d made. There was only silence after the wind, the earthquake and the fire—a gentle blowing of the wind. No words at all. The Lord would send another like Elijah—Elisha and another and another until the last Old Testament Prophet, Malachi closed his prophecy with these words:

Malachi 4:4-6 (ESV)
"Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.
[5] "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. [6] And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."

And then there was John the Baptist of whom Christ said:
Mark 9:13 (ESV)
But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written of him."

And finally the between Moses the Lawgiver and Elijah the Prophet stood Christ on another mountain—the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets:

Luke 4:18-21 (ESV)
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." … And he began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

2 Peter 1:16-20 (ESV)
For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. [17] For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased," [18] we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. [19] And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, [20] knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

John 16:7-15

"However, I am telling you nothing but the truth when I say it is profitable (good, expedient, advantageous) for you that I go away. Because if I do not go away, the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Advocate, Intercessor, Strengthener, Standby) will not come to you [into close fellowship with you]; but if I go away, I will send Him to you [to be in close fellowship with you].

(8) And when He comes, He will convict and convince the world and bring demonstration to it about sin and about righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) and about judgment:

(9) About sin, because they do not believe in Me [trust in, rely on, and adhere to Me];

(10) About righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God), because I go to My Father, and you will see Me no longer;

(11) About judgment, because the ruler (evil genius, prince) of this world [Satan] is judged and condemned and sentence is already passed on him.

(12) I have still many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them or to take them upon you or to grasp them now.

(13) But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].

(14) He will honor and glorify Me, because He will take of (receive, draw upon) what is mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you.

(15) Everything that the Father has is Mine. That is what I meant when I said that He [the Spirit] will take the things that are Mine and will reveal (declare, disclose, transmit) it to you."

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I Corinthians 12:1-4,27-31

"Now about the spiritual gifts (the special endowments of supernatural energy), brethren, I do not want you to be misinformed.

(2) You know that when you were heathen, you were led off after idols that could not speak [habitually] as impulse directed and whenever the occasion might arise.

(3) Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking under the power and influence of the [Holy] Spirit of God can [ever] say, Jesus be cursed! And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit.

(4) Now there are distinctive varieties and distributions of endowments (gifts, extraordinary powers distinguishing certain Christians, due to the power of divine grace operating in their souls by the Holy Spirit) and they vary, but the [Holy] Spirit remains the same.


(27) Now you [collectively] are Christ's body and [individually] you are members of it, each part severally and distinct [each with his own place and function].

(28) So God has appointed some in the church [for His own use]: first apostles (special messengers); second prophets (inspired preachers and expounders); third teachers; then wonder-workers; then those with ability to heal the sick; helpers; administrators; [speakers in] different (unknown) tongues.

(29) Are all apostles (special messengers)? Are all prophets (inspired interpreters of the will and purposes of God)? Are all teachers? Do all have the power of performing miracles?

(30) Do all possess extraordinary powers of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

(31) But earnestly desire and zealously cultivate the greatest and best gifts and graces (the higher gifts and the choicest graces). And yet I will show you a still more excellent way [one that is better by far and the highest of them all-love]."

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I John 2:27

"But as for you, the anointing (the sacred appointment, the unction) which you received from Him abides [permanently] in you; [so] then you have no need that anyone should instruct you. But just as His anointing teaches you concerning everything and is true and is no falsehood, so you must abide in (live in, never depart from) Him [being rooted in Him, knit to Him], just as [His anointing] has taught you [to do]."

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Jesus never once mentioned context. Nor did Paul.

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

Bob,
I don't think Jim is refuting the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. All he is doing is showing how people take a phrase out context and build a case out of it, when there is a more important truth that God is communicating in the passage. His explanation of the passage really cleared up for me some things I didn't understand about the passage. Jesus didn't use the word "context" but he surely rebuked the Pharisees for building doctrines out of invididual words and phrases.

[minutus (minutus)]

Context is an integral part of meaning. Jesus is the context of the Bible in the broadest sense.

Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures...

Lk.24:44-45

The context of his teaching was generally his choice of words and his actions, designed to get his meaning across to specific listeners. For us as readers of a narrative text, context is everything.

[susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)]

Terra, you wrote:

"Jesus didn't use the word "context" but he surely rebuked the Pharisees for building doctrines out of invididual words and phrases."

How interesting, I was always told in GG that it was what Jesus did: argue about words and build his case around one. So, thanks for mentioning that for I have always wondered whether it was true or not.

Susanna

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

That is what Jesus was referring to in MT. 23:23-24

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness by Satan, His answers were not given in whole passages.

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

No, he addressed the specific scripture that Satan used. What is your point, Bob. It has nothing to do with what has been presented previously.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

The point has to do with context. He addressed specific scriptures with other specific scriptures, which without currently checking I'm thinking were not from the same passages. Thus, His counterattack (if you will) was not in terms of context at all.

Additionally, the Lord never told me I had to study the Word with so much attention to the context. I'm not against it as such; but His answer to my understanding was the Holy Spirit, not my own ability to discover the 'meaning' of the text. These systems of study rely very heavily on human scholarship and following methods of interpretation. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead us to the truth. I take His words over the logic of these systems.

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

Bob,
Every believer agrees with you that the Holy Spirit will lead one in truth. The safeguard that distinguishes people using scriptures to their own benefit (like CHS) and those that do not are principles of hermeneutics. The Holy Spirit registers within our spirit what is sound or not but we are also commanded to study the Word that we might know it, and discern what is right or not. Study involves applying principles of hermeneutics. One of the benefits of studying scripture is looking at the whole scope of Scripture and understanding the plan and work of God over a period of time. That is all that Jim was doing when he referred to Scriptures outside of the passage in question. He was showing the full scope of how God changes not concerning his Word. Elijah wanted a new word for his situation and God didn't have any. Jim then showed how God used this event to reveal the continuity of His Word in the NT.
Let me ask you a question as a result of what Karen posted on a previous thread. Does the manner of how Jim approaches explaining the previous passage affect you because of the years you submitted to the minute detail of expository teaching that CHS gave? Forgive me for answering my own question, but I could see how many believers would prefer the Spirit to speak to them after they have been burned by the faulty "line upon line" teachings of CHS.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Terra; I think that Jim doesn't really consider CHS to have taught 'line upon line', but to have used the Spirit and the authority chain to do whatever suited him. This is true, and the way he used 'line upon line' was also to his own advantage. My 'contention' (if that's the term for it) is that it was not so much 'the method' that was the problem as the motive. Elsewhere Jim raised the topic of rewards, and the emphasis on rewards in TBS/GGWO literally drove me up the wall. I hated it. It was so self-oriented.

I realize that context and many of the study methods employed are viable and worth exploring. My problem is that those who seem to follow such methods don't seem to believe that the Spirit will give truth outside that context. I think they're wrong in that. I think we all have different pieces in the puzzle; and all the pieces are necessary. I respect scholars; but among the apostles, the only one I see is Paul; and he was a late comer. My leaning is toward John, more of what I consider a mystic. But hey; Paul was a mystic too. He speaks at great length about the Spirit.

[susanna_krizo (susanna_krizo)]

Bob, are you referring to the specific guidance of the Holy Spirit in every believers life? I remember being told in GG that God doesn't speak to the individual believer; He only speaks through the pulpit i.e. the pastor. I thought it was strange because God has spoken to me in the past and still does. Yet, it is always in agreement with the Bible (He doesn't tell me to go and kill someone etc.) Could it be that you are against the idea that God cannot speak to you individually but only uses the Bible to speak to you?

Susanna

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

No CHS does not do biblical exposition... Biblical exposition occurs when a preacher allows the passage or text he is preaching from to speak for itself, within the context, historical background, meaning of words and primary application to the immediate audience the passage addresses. Then, he illustrates the passage with other scriptures or stories and then applies it to the modern listeners' life. Stott said the good expositor "stands between two worlds"...the world of the bible times and the culture he lives in. The good expositor will be the bridge between these two worlds and apply the expostion to his audience's world. This is hard work. But the preacher who does this will bless his church with sound biblical preaching. Topical expostion does the same process but with several different verses to preach the theme of the sermon. For instance, the theme might be suffering and verses would expand the theme. Narrative exposition is the same. For instance, the preacher might preach a sermon on the life of Abraham, Elijah, the walls of Jericho falling down, etc. Doctrinal exposition will take a major bible doctrine such as justification or sanctification or the Deity of Christ and preach on that doctrine following the same process. All these are sound methods of exposition.

CHS is a topical preacher who often ignores context, primary application, historical background and uses a verse as a "leaping point" to teach and say what he wants to say and it is usually very devotional in style. Mix this in with his twist on the anointing and you enter into a danger zone. This type of topical preaching is not wise.

When I was still in Bible School I was sickened by how many tried to imitate CHS (this is very common with all young preachers to imitate a preacher they like). I did not want to do this. I determined to be like David and not walk in another man's armor when I faced the giant of preaching. Learning how to be a an effective expositor is a life long process. I am still working on it.
For Him,
Dave

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Susanna, As I recall, Stevens taught that you did hear individually from the Spirit. But if you heard something that was out of line with 'the pulpit' (the sarcasm with which I use this term is dripping), then you were hearing 'other voices' or 'projections'. You were meant to adjust your own walk with God to 'the pulpit'.

I do hear from God, and not just about things in the Bible. But in addition to that, I don't feel 'bound' to always checking context. I do sometimes. Jesus Himself used verses out of their context. I understand the desire to correct misunderstanding over particular verses or passages; but there's a sense of very critical judgment being leveled at those who don't follow these methods. The Bible itself has not outlined these scholarly approaches to it; so it is not required by God unless He does so by His Spirit. I am responsible to Him, not to line up with human opinions or traditions. It doesn't matter how 'reasonable' they are. He didn't give them in the Word. I'm not angry. But these things can be chains for those who are not intended to bear them. Those people need to be defended against the desire of some to make them into something they are not intended to be.

I personally inwardly 'feel' that taking these methods as the way you always approach the Word produces a stale, canned kind of spiritual taste. Not all the time, or with every person who uses them. Some are supposed to go this route; and good insights do come from it. But if a folk singer decides that opera is a higher form of music, and tries to write folk music that is more like opera; he ends up with something hideous that is neither folk nor opera. This is the kind of illustration that reading a lot of Lewis brought me to. It clearly presents the point in seemingly unrelated terms. Jesus used parables; so you can consider it 'Biblical'. But I became acclimated to it through reading Lewis. He started with different data.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Dave, I appreciate your above post; particularly the thing about the armor. That is what I feel others here are trying to impose on myself and others here. My armor is not the same as yours. I am not a pastor. I am one part of the story. I'm not trying to tell the whole thing. As a pastor, you have much different responsibilities than I do. But when the Lord gives me insights, they are spiritually vital. I'm not a lesser life form. I work in the manner I am given. I spent many years ushering when I wasn't really called to that. I was a fish out of water. I didn't belong in that. I'm not a novice. I'm not trying to subvert people's faith or preach strange doctrines. I'm trying to protect and encourage individuality in the saints.

I loathe most topical preaching. It almost always seems to end up in the twisting of verses or passages to serve some artificial end. Even if the end is a 'good' one, I hate the distortions. But everyone who takes a less intellectually oriented approach to the Word or a differently intellectually oriented one is not necessarily doing so because they were deceived by CHS and haven't yet escaped his clutches. That tack is like talking politics. Some of us are just different. Things gained in meditation and prayer can be very powerful and to the point.

[karen (karen)]

I am in that place again, between two impulses, and I don’t know which way God is leading. As I have taken progressive steps toward a more "biblical" Christianity, I have experienced knots in my stomach and a kind of despair. It feels as if I’m entering the box again and if I don’t get out of there fast, the door will snap shut on me. The Bible believers seem, on one hand, so certain, so stable, so ready with the all answers. However, what they say sounds "stale," as Bob says. My perception is that there is a simultude of life in it, like a wax replica of a person, but it’s not the real deal. Glassy eyes stare unfocused into space. I cannot engage with it.

When I read the writings of others who struggle with my own issues, I feel both hope and despair as well. Hope—because I am hearing a voice that resonates as truth, demonstrating an honest awareness of complexity and contradiction. And despair—because the place they find themselves offers no sure answers. They have faith, but it is a walk in the darkness. And they are deeply flawed people, as I am.

The problem with being out of the box is that I don't always know where the boundaries are. And the practice of leaving doors open also means that one never goes anywhere. I feel that I must go forward, make some commitments, but the stakes are very high. I desperately need a local group of believers who are on the same wavelength, but I am discovering that every kindred voice in cyberspace is experiencing the same isolation that I do.

I have also been wondering if I have issues with the "male" side of God. Of course, what I perceive as male may only be the version of maleness that dominates in American Christianity. It would help to be among believers from other cultures--especially those who have not been influenced by Americans. American men are so good at focusing on goals, simplifying issues to come up with effective strategies, and pushing through obstacles with little or no remorse for the casualties. There is something simultaneously admirable and horrifying about this.

In my experiences with Christians, I have always been one of the casualties.

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Karen and Bob,
I hear you both. Again, Karen your questions and observations are important. I think I will try to oversimplify (forgive me). What I am saying is that yes He the HOLY SPIRIT leads us into all truth (John 16). If HE leads us in a direction that runs counter to HIS words than we are going in the wrong direction. And, HE reveals this to us in HIS words. The Spirit than uses the Bible verses to convict or encourage us. Now, we can have a peace through prayer and meditation on a thought, etc. that is a blessing for us. I think the problem with much evengelical and biblical preaching is that it can lack the Life that only the Spirit can bring. Three passages speak of this principle:

1. Until we come to Jesus and see Him for Who He is our bible study or preaching and teaching misses the mark:

John 5:39-47 " You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41 " I do not receive glory from men; 42 but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. 43 "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. 44 "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? 45 "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. 47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"" NASU

2. The Spirit does the illuminating and breathes life into our hearts:

2 Corinthians 3:"Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you? 2 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory. 12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses,who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is,there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit." NASU

3. Without the life of the Spirit in our Bible Study or preaching our words or oour thoughts are a little out of tune (as in 1 Cor. 13 the perfect love passage)

John 6:61-65 "But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 " It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." NASU

Simply put, Dead letter legalism is just as fatal as Christianity without boundaries.

For HIm,
Dave

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

What did you learn about the Holy Spirit from Carl Stevens?

Did you learn that the Spirit had given Carl special gifts? That he had the ability through the Spirit to discern things about you that you never communicated to him? That God ‘gave’ him special Holy Spirit ‘anointed’ messages in the pulpit and special insights into your life and into others that were ‘spiritual?’ Did you come away thinking that Carl Stevens was so spiritual that he spoke face to face with God as a man speaks to his own dear friend?

How did that affect your own relationship with God through the indwelling of the Spirit?

Did you see Carl Stevens as a model of a spiritual pastor; a Spirit filled man of God? Did you take the words he spoke as being from the actual throne of God—given to him as much as the tablets were given to Moses? What did you think as you listened to those classics—‘Certain Certainties,’ ‘Baked in the Loaf,’ ‘The Great White Throne,’ or if you were there then ‘What it Means to Be Baptized Unto a Man?’ Did it strike you that God was speaking face to face with Carl Stevens?

Hey, I was sold on it—to the core—hook, line, sinker—lock, stock, barrel. I had not an ounce of true Berean ability or inclination.

I remember riding in the Lincoln one day with another young pastor who’d been interested in one of my ex-girlfriends. He wanted to know from ‘God’s man’ whether she was ‘the one.’ He poured his heart out describing his infatuation with this girl. Carl said, “Yes, she’s the one.” The young man pursued this girl with a vengeance. They got married and later divorced. Carl got it from God that she was the one. Relationships are not built on a man’s pseudo-prophetic delusions.

I remember that Carl used to teach that there were a certain number of anointings, was it 26 or 29? Maybe there are more now. I know we’ve brought it up before, but were you there when he would demonstrate how to go from a preaching anointing to a teaching anointing to a weeping anointing to who knows what?

With all the preaching we’ve heard that focuses on ‘God’s man’ and the ‘geographical will of God’ and ‘homebase’ does it not seem that Carl Stevens has made the Holy Spirit just another of his lackeys? Is Carl not like a medium, a spiritualist of sorts except that he claims to channel God?

Is it any wonder that the preaching at GGWO does not reflect any serious study, but rather guys claiming to speak under an ‘anointing’ after looking at a few Greek word meanings?

[terra_cognita (terra_cognita)]

So true Jim. When success started to come, authority, power and control became his first addictions. He couldn't get enough of it. He ended up believing what he preached. When his authority started to slip he turned to other addictions. Only true and complete repentance and restitution can save him from the demons that torment him. He has brought harm to a lot of believers and the unity within families. He has ostrazised GG believers from understanding the universal Body of Christ. It is sad the harm he has done to his own family and his own wife.

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

I had mixed feelings in listening to Carl Stevens. There were a lot of things he said that I disagreed with. I didn't think 'the anointing' made him right about everything. I did not think Indians suffered what they did at the hands of our government because 'they were lazy'. He was in error about that, as about many things. I'm sure I was deceived about some things and not others. But his lying and sinfulness do not mean that people can't hear from God today. I understand why you may not want to go there, Jim. But I have to have a living relationship with a God Who speaks. I also have to be accountable to others and seek to avoid known sin. I don't think a personal walk with God makes me a law unto myself. In fact, I consider that God may give me restrictions (for myself) that are not necessitated by what is clearly stated in the Bible. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin, right? If I believe the Spirit has given me a personal restriction, then I consider myself bound by it. But that doesn't indicate that it is for others.

[lee (lee)]

I was there for all that you mention. I fell under the spell. I lived it, breathed it, recommended it.......there was much to wake up to. Much to turn away from.

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

New to the site... many of you old timers will recognize my name... Hi Jim F... Dave from Florida where are you now? Hearing from Ron Kelly was wonderful this week. We are doing well in Florida. Very interesting site. Such wonderful friends and people we met through TBS. I am very proud of all of you. Keep writing.

[minutus (minutus)]

Wow BJ!

We live in Pinellas Park not too far from you (just came back from the Christmas parade http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif). I have been wanting to get in touch with you guys because you both were a great blessing to me. The best part of FACTNet is hearing from people like you. Merry Christmas indeed!

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

not so sure who you are, minutus... is it dave? my email is merwin1@tampabay.rr.com.. (merwin1@tampabay.rr.com.). for any of you who know Mike and I from the So. Berwick, Lenox and a few baltimore days... I lived in the girls dorm in So Berwick as the same time as Lee.. Mike and I were in the ministry about 18 years.. he was the pastor of the St. pete ministry for many years... We left Baltimore about 14 years ago and have been living in Florida ever since. My lovely girlfriend A in Maine told me about this site about 4 weeks ago and have been reading since then... Fawcett and I were christian hippies before TBS in Bath...With Ed Mosher, Bobby Anderson, Mike Graves, Jim Hennessey, Marty & Debbie O'Brien... lovely lovely people... I have been blessed reading all the postings these 3 weeks... Lee & Jack... while I never had the opportunity to spend alot of time with you... your postings are lovely and true. And many of you have hit so many spots...Mike and I thank the Lord for all the "good times" and great preaching we received in GGWO... and the "bad times" and bad experiences (those that did not align with what we were being taught) we have gracefully left behind... Mike's mom and I were talking today on the way to Christmas shopping and I was telling her about this site and some of the postings. She said "the ministry saved my son's life." She was treated poorly by many TBS pastors, etc. and left the ministry many years before we did. However what she thanks God for was that Mike's life was very changed by the Lord and it came from that particular fish hook. My whole family attends Calvary Chapel in St. Pete.. and have been truly blessed by that church. It seems that many people on this site have found a local Calvary Chapel for their church homes, and I am glad. I am not in the "inner circle" at CC and don't ever want to be... just want to hear the Word and live the life.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

The very first job I had after joining up with Woolwich Wiscasset Church was painting a certain doctor or dentist's office in Brunswick (it was wasn't it)...there was this office worker there...

[minutus (minutus)]

That's great to hear, BJ. I can be reached at minutus@gte.net.

Dave Carson

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Fawcett you dog... LOL... man your memory is so very good!!! I'm so old now I forgot that... God love your heart ... hehehe... Dr. Bullington, MD... first job out of high school.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

I cannot imagine that you are old BJ or Mike. You are both forever stuck in the 70s in my head. Wasn't there a friendship connection between Mike, Dan Baker, Jim Cromwell and Mike McGoldrick? Weren't they in Hawaii or something? Maybe the memory is foggy.

somebonus@yahoo.com

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on December 11, 2004)

[bob_brinton (bob_brinton)]

Hi BJ, I remember you as the 'Freedom to laugh is my priviledge' girl, with the husband who hit monster home runs in softball. He did have a major change during the Lenox days. A deepening focus. Welcome.

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

Your memory is as good as your flirting was years ago with that little hippie "office girl"...hehe..
Mike and Danny were friends from way back.. danny brought mike to the "marriage convention in Portland Maine... gosh... in 73 or 74... where he was gloriously saved..Mike went to Hawaii as planned, Danny went to California and in a couple months dan called mike in hawaii and said come on back for Bible College... So 2 longhairs from California and Hawaii showed up at Boston airport in middle of winter with summer clothes and flip flops and moved to So. Berwick...Jim Cromwell was always a very good friend from SB on and of course Mike McGoldrick was one of the lovliest men I ever met... inside and out. Saw Mike McGoldrick about 13 years ago in Disneyland... was a hoot!!... Jim Cromwell is doing well working in a christian high school... He and becky live in Jacksonville. John Lloyd and his beautiful wife was the assistant pastor here in a church in St. Pete... but left about 5 years ago to pastor a church in the midwest... They were doing so very well....

Jim... email me and let me know how I can get a copy of your book... I hope you have written a book??? kisses and hugs from Florida. If anyone would like to email me you can do so at merwin1@tampabay.rr.com. Jeannie... your kind words made me happy... Thank you for them : )

[lee (lee)]

Well this is a good morning to hear from BJ! Thanks for joining us and welcome!

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

After being taught tons of gobbledegook from Carl Stevens, trying to save the baby when throwing out the bathwater, reading through our favorite dead guys, being attacked by doubt, sorting out the various living "prophets," having trolls invite us into new and "perfect" sects, here's a simple thought:

The Bible teaches two things.

Yep, that simple--just two things:

1. What God wants us to believe about Him.
2. What God requires of us.

When you read any Scripture, or hear any preaching, or read any testimony from any person and you want to be like the Bereans who lined up even what the apostle Paul said to Scripture or you want to be like those Greeks who went to the disciples who said, "Sirs, we would see Jesus," think:

"What does God desire me to believe about Him?"

And:

"What does God require of me?"


Merry thoughts for a Merry Christmas. May you be invaded by the love of Christ and may you invade the world around you with the same.

[david_alexander (david_alexander)]

I like what Minutus said in a post above, as follows:

"The context of his(Jesus') teaching was generally his choice of words and his actions, designed to get his meaning across to specific listeners. For us as readers of a narrative text, context is everything."

Actually, the context of His commands and teaching is the whole of His life...especially the way He poured out His life on His disciples, in His living for them, and ultimately, in His dying and going to death for them.

With the above in mind, the central command of the New Covenant is found in John 13:34-35...when we are told the following:

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
John 13:35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

As Minutus said, context is everything in understanding this command. It was not given in a vacuum, but out of the context of HOW He had loved them for the previous 3 1/2 years. How had Yahshua loved His disciples? By leaving everything behind to pour His life out on them completely...and calling them to likewise "forsake all" to follow Him and share a common life with Him. It is from this context that He then commands them to love each other in just the same way that He had loved them.

The rich young ruler would not pay the price to come into this context of a common life of love...and could not be saved, as a result.

Yahshua clearly saw a common life together to be the necessary CONTEXT for loving His disciples; and no one can obey His command in John 13:34,35 apart from that context. Much more on this subject can be read at www.theLitmusTest.org (http://www.theLitmusTest.org)

David

[yogi (yogi)]

Hey Alexander,

Your voice isn't STILL enough nor SMALL enough so you and your cult need to get lost! Comprende usted?

Yogi

[david_alexander (david_alexander)]

Hey yogi....you need to figure something out yourself. This site is about FREEDOM OF MIND!! Meaning I am free to lift up my voice here without restraint; and it is people such as you, that try to silence honest hearts, that are the ones that bring people into bondage. I will certainly NOT be silenced by you or your kind.

It is so easy, and so cheap and small, to simply discard another human being, or group, as "cultists"...completely apart from any accurate biblical definition. To people like you, yogi, it simply means anyone of faith you don't like who disagrees with you.

There is an objective definition of "cult"; but it is far from what most think. Here is an interesting article defining what cult is more objectively.

-------------
I once heard it said that a cult is any religion that doesn’t have it’s own University and Football team yet. Hence, the Catholics and Baptists are not cults; the Mormons were a cult 100 years ago, but no longer are since they now have Brigham Young University (BYU), which has a football team that actually has won the national championship. So how can they possibly be a cult?

On a much more serious note, I paste here for your thoughtful consideration the true definition of a “Cult”, as defined by the Encyclopedia Britannica. This can be checked in any library; this is from Encyclopedia Britanicca, Macropedia, Vol. 15, page 996 (1979)

---------------------------------------------

A “cult”, someone once wisely said, is any group you don’t like. The Encyclopedia Britannica defines it more objectively. It actually has to do with the way people in cults worship their God.

The Encyclopedia Britannica defines it as follows:

“Cultic worship is so universal in religion that some historians of religion define religion as cult. Cultic worship is social, and this means more than a group worshipping the same deity in the same place at the same time. Cult is structured with a division of sacred personnel (priests) who lead and perform the cultic ceremonies for the people, who are in a more distant relation with the deity. The sacred personnel are designated by the choice and acceptance both of the deity and of the worshipping group. The words and actions of the cultic performance are divided into roles assigned to the leaders and to the worshippers. It is the tendency of cultic worship to replace spontaneity, which it once had, with set and even rigid forms of words and acts. These are preserved by tradition, and they generally have a sacredness that is based on the belief that the directions for cultic worship came ultimately from the deity.”

So there are several distinguishing features of a cult, namely:

1. The “cult” worships their God in the same place at the same time. (This is a nearly universal feature of religion)
2. The “cult” has set-apart priests or ministers who stand in a closer relationship to God than the people.
3. These “priests” or “ministers” lead the worship of God, which was once spontaneous, into a set or even rigid form of words and acts.
4. The “cult” believes their form of worship to be from God…even if it is far different than the former open, lively, participatory worship with which their group began.

The Encyclopedia Britannica clearly describes the churches of today, with their system of clergy and laity. Having a paid and trained “sacred personnel”, both Christian and Catholic worship is therefore defined as cultic. It all began years ago, when something started to go on in the churches that had never happened before; the people became silent and only the voices of their leaders were heard. Before this, everyone came with something to share, as Paul instructed the Corinthians. (I Corinthians 14:26)

In Paul’s first letter, he told them the outcome of God being among them would be that ALL would prophesy. All, not just the clergy, would come with a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, and a tongue (if there were an interpretation). Both the men and the women could speak, as long as the women wore their head coverings when they prayed or prophesied. (1 Cor. 11:5-10) It was a true priesthood of all the believers, where all could and WERE EXPECTED to speak the very words of God. (1 Peter 4:11)

Yet for many reasons on the part of both the people and their leaders, something started to happen in the young church even before the first century ended. The church divided into “clergy” and “laity”, and the “laity” were silenced. They were conquered. The apostle John, writing at the end of the apostolic age, called these conquerors the Nicolaitans:

“Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. (Revelations 2:6)

The word Nicolaitan comes from two Greek words, “nikos”, meaning conquest, triumph, victory; and “laos”, which means “people”. The Nicolaitans were victorious over the people. (Strongs #3532,3534,2992) The change that this produced in the Church was profound. The Christian historians also record this change, noting that many even considered it a curse:

“Between the years AD 100 and AD 500, the Christian Church changed almost beyond recognition…..(At first) the organization of the church was still fluid…. There were no creeds to be recited, no set forms of worship…(But by AD 500) the worship of the church was entirely liturgical with fixed, set forms of prayer. Most of these changes came gradually over four hundred years…But not all these changes were necessarily for the better. Many today would consider the alliance with the state and the transformation of Christianity into an official religion to be at best a mixed blessing, if not actually a curse. Many would be less than enthusiastic about the pattern of ministry that emerged and about the suppression of the free forms of worship.” (Tony Lane, “The Lion Book of Christian Thought” Lion Publishing, Batavia, Ill., 1984)

To this day the people remain silent in the churches across America, indeed across all of Christendom. True, they sing when they are supposed to, respond when they are supposed to, give when they are supposed to, stand up, sit down, file in and file out when they are supposed to. They are led in all these things by their leaders, whom they expect to be closer to God than themselves, because they have been educated in the skills of oratory and doctrine.

But they are NOT TOLD that they are participating in CLASSIC CULTIC WORSHIP. Nor are they told that his is NOT the reason for which Yahshua the Messiah died. (Yahshua is the Hebrew name of the Son of God)

The people do not know, nor does each generation of conquerors know, that their worship and their faith are built on another foundation than the one Paul and the other apostles laid. This “Cultic” Christian religion IS an ancient practice, but it does NOT go back to the beginning. Paul spelled out the pattern for New Testament worship in 1 Corinthians 14:24-33:

"But if ALL prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you. How is it then, brethren? WHENEVER you come together, EACH OF YOU has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. FOR YOU CAN ALL PROPHESY ONE BY ONE, THAT ALL MAY LEARN AND ALL MAY BE ENCOURAGED. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints."

THIS is the beginning, where ALL come prepared and have the freedom to speak.

Today’s Christians, as they attend their cultic worship, do not know, and their conquerors do not teach them, that their silence in the churches is the ringing affirmation that the Holy Spirit does not dwell there. (Hebrews 3:6) They are not told that only the dead go down to silence before their God. (Ps. 115:17)

All they know is that this is the way it has always been, so this must be the way it should be.

When the least of the brothers could no longer speak in the gathering and be heard, the Holy Spirit had no more voice among the people, and He departed.

He will not dwell in silence, nor will He continue to be head over any church where the people lose their outspokenness:

“But Christ was faithful as a Son over His house; whose house we are, IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.” (Heb. 3:6)

“Confidence” is a very special word here. It is number 3954 in “Strong’s Greek Concordance of the Bible”, and means “freedom of speaking, unreservedness in speech, openly, frankly, free and fearless confidence, cheerful courage, boldness, assurance.”

This means if God’s people lose their outspokenness in the gatherings, then the Messiah will no longer be head over that house. Instead, the Nicolaitans become the head, having silenced or conquered the people. And so we see the basis of cultic worship, a far cry from what most people would think. Is this different from what you’ve been led to believe?
-----------------------

The above was taken from our freepaper, “What is a Cult?”

It is available for free, along with many other articles of equal interest and quality, on our website at www.CommonwealthofIsrael.org (http://www.CommonwealthofIsrael.org)

The truth will set sincere hearts free, and can be found at www.TheLitmusTest.org (http://www.TheLitmusTest.org)

sincerely, david

[anon_brief (anon_brief)]

Not interested.

[joni_fortin (joni_fortin)]

thank God for the 'scroll button'

[minutus (minutus)]

If you're a spiritual masochist want it worse than you had it in TBS/GGWO, then try http://www.commonwealthofisrael.org/

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

As was mentioned before the above:

After being taught tons of gobbledegook from Carl Stevens, trying to save the baby when throwing out the bathwater, reading through our favorite dead guys, being attacked by doubt, sorting out the various living "prophets," having trolls invite us into new and "perfect" sects, here's a simple thought:

The Bible teaches two things.

Yep, that simple--just two things:

1. What God wants us to believe about Him.
2. What God requires of us.

When you read any Scripture, or hear any preaching, or read any testimony from any person and you want to be like the Bereans who lined up even what the apostle Paul said to Scripture or you want to be like those Greeks who went to the disciples who said, "Sirs, we would see Jesus," think:

"What does God desire me to believe about Him?"

And:

"What does God require of me?"


Merry thoughts for a Merry Christmas. May you be invaded by the love of Christ and may you invade the world around you with the same.

[minutus (minutus)]

A little memo for David Alexander/Durresh/Etc:

"The only consistent feature of all your dissatisfying relationships is you."

http://store.yahoo.com/demotivators/dysfunction.html

[david_alexander (david_alexander)]

I like Joni's post...it's funny.

The Small ones' post is good too. I appreciate truth whereever it may be found...and certainly, it is true of all humans, including me, that in our flesh we are our own worst enemy.

I am glad to be in a place where flesh can and does die; because I live in a place where the real Gospel is known and lived, and I have a context to die to myself daily by laying down my life for my brothers.

It is all I have ever wanted since I was a little boy. Mockers words fall off of me like water off of a duck's back, because it is an undeniable fact to those of us who love this Life, that God dwells among us.

I am so glad to have found a place where the Word is rightly divided, and lived out daily.

You can read about it at www.TheLitmusTest.org (http://www.TheLitmusTest.org)

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

After having had a look at the Twelve Tribes site, I was taken back to the late 60s and early 70s when Moses David Berg was gathering young people in communes, divesting themselves of all private property, working in businesses to provide the basics, etc. When young ones joined this cult they were given a new name--usually biblical. I encountered an Agabus in NYC once along with a very attractive Rachel who attempted to employ a Mo Letter evangelism tactic on me called "flirty fishing." This group later morphed into something else called "The Family" I think but the artwork they used in their publications is very similar to that on the Twelve Tribes site. Weird. The doctrine on the TT site is unbiblical, heretical, and dangerous. To view this for yourself--visit the part of their site that deals with beliefs.

You gotta wonder about a group that tells you to come and live with them and advocates complete abandonment of private property, which the Eighth commandment clearly establishes.

[nonotone (nonotone)]

Grifters Jim, simply GRIFTERS.

David_Alexander - when you can write a detailed treatise of how your BS is in-step with 2000 years of historical Christianity INCLUDING Luther, Calvin, and Edwards THEN some of us might start to listen to you. Right now you sound like a sophomoric proof(spoof) texter.

Those of us who through the Holy Spirit, 1000's of hours of personal study (including Biblical Hebrew, Greek, Church History, Historical Theology, etc.), and finally fellowship with HEALTHY local assemblies (i.e. after we left GGWO) can see right through you.

You best not come here trying to 'poach' our wounded sheep!


Brian Bowman
John 3:21

[minutus (minutus)]

More than grifters, Brian. David Alexander and his cult du jour are spiritual <font color="ff0000">REIVERS</font>} (alt. spelling reavers):

Main Entry: 1reave
Pronunciation: 'rEv
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): reaved or reft /'reft/; reav·ing
Etymology: Middle English reven, from Old English rEafian; akin to Old High German roubOn to rob, Latin rumpere to break
intransitive senses : PLUNDER, ROB
transitive senses
1 archaic a (1) : ROB, DESPOIL (2) : to deprive one of b : SEIZE
2 archaic : to carry or tear away
- reav·er noun

[minutus (minutus)]

Isn't is sad how cults ALWAYS begin with the premise that the church has gotten it all wrong for 2000 years and how they have a new revelation of how it was back then. Think of Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, etc.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Beware of the itinerant cultist who peddle his wares here there and everywhere...

How foolish! What lack of forethought on his part to peddle his wares on our threads. He is a foolish troll who believes he has cast his line in a lake laden with gullible fish. He is missing a vital piece of information.. WE ARE NOT GULLIBLE ANYMORE...

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

His first and primary problem is his definition of the term cult. They pick and choose a definition that suits their taste. The only problem is the very defintion they chose labels themselves as a cult.

www.britanica.com (http://www.britanica.com) says also:In the West, the term has come to be used for groups that are perceived to have deviated from normative religions in belief and practice. They typically have a charismatic leader and attract followers who are in some way disenfranchised from the mainstream of society. Cults as thus defined are often viewed as foreign or dangerous.

Apologetics Index gives all the definitions as APPLIED in the sense of the FACTNET discussions:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c09.html
Mainly the theological and sociological aspects, not the general term that applies to any religion.

So he makes it sound as if there is only one application of the word cult that fits everyone but him. If I remember right it's called the fallacy of self-exclusion.

The church has stood for almost 2000 years. Matthew 16:18 - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

But typical of anyone that wants to put forth their own counterfit in place of Christianity. First they have to either try and demonstrate the church disappeared which goes against Christ own words, or they have to denegrate the Bible to the point of being worthless, or both. Only then can they attempt to replace it with their counterfit.

M or Michael

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Brian and Michael,

God bless you both for your (Dare I say) balanced input.

The shame of it is, if we abandon Church and (especially) the Word of God, the GGWO has won. People need to abandon GGWO and any who teach God's Word wrong, or even right with wrong motives and results. But to truly have victory over those we have "escaped" from is to say, "You are wrong! I AM going on with God, in spite of you guys!"

God bless,

Ralph

PS for Michael - Is this my Dear Friend Michael that I was dorm pastor for so many years?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

We have had these types on the threads from the beginning--remember Martin L. and the "real Christians do not sin" thing? It is very interesting to me that when any sort of progress seems to be made, certain "things" occur all at once (and I am NOT one of those guys who looks for demons in every post)---the inerrancy thread heats up, we get a re-introduction to Gene Edwards's aberrant doctrines, this bozo Alexander just "shows up," both of these guys think that the church has it wrong and that we should either have church only in houses or live in a commune---now what else? Remember the term "body house"--I think it has been used on the threads a number of times? Just what we need, Christian communism or more oddball separatism.

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on December 21, 2004)

[minutus (minutus)]

Jim, what's heartening has been the response to Alexander/Durresh/Whatever.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Here's an idea--how 'bout you hippie types who want to live in communes or the Gene Edwards folks who want to have church only in houses all go live with the Amish.

Get a copy of the movie "Witness" (Harrison Ford, 1985)--watch it a few times, then get your butts out to Lancaster, PA or to the farms out near Canton, OH and put your money where your mouth is.

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

"Mockers words fall off of me like water off of a duck's back"
Spoken like a true QUACK

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Yes Dave,

And has been said, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck."

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Jim knows a great pub in England he could recommend to the quack.

Jim, I respect what you bring to the discourse because we have a shared experience and your words have value. I also respect others on the forum who bring their own insights, thoughts and experiences. I do not put David Alexander in the same category of those who exited the TBS/GGWO experience and now share their processes of moving on with God. Their words have value to me also.. whether they are discussing home churches, Catholic churches or not going to church at all. For those of you are not here in Baltimore, it tough living in this city for those of us who have left. Let them figure out how God is leading them without devaluing their process. After several personal unpleasant encounters with the Borgs that remain, Lancaster sounds pretty darn good. I can hear the opening music of "Witness" beckoning as I write...

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

those ducks can be pretty slick...

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

Here is some free advice:
never get tangled up with a church who thinks they are the only real New Testament church...their leader is probably an ego-maniac...just my humble but accurate opinion.

[jeannie (jeannie)]

Good Advice Dave! Folks, Dave is right.. flee such a church, do not be entangled in such a church, there are many healthy churches out there. Leave GGWO immediately!.. lol

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Ralph,
AMEN!

Nope. I'm not or ever have been a member. I've been helping those that came to me because of GGWO and wanted my input to the problem and help getting friends and family out of that situation.

M or Michael

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

M R dux.

M R not dux!

O S A R--C D E D B D wings?

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

ok...I am offically freaked out

Jim...I understood your last post.

I expect armageddon sometime in the next 15 minutes.

[minutus (minutus)]

Sound of "Ride of the Valkyries" swells in the background...

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Wagner was dramatic wasn't he?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

A B C D puppies?

L, M N O puppies.

O S A R--I C M P N.

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

barkeep, pour me another

[minutus (minutus)]

Make it a double...

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Jim's buying

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Watch out! There are Baptists about!
(Bless their hearts.)

Psalm 104:15 (ESV)
...and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine
and bread to strengthen man's heart.


We could just settle for the oil and the bread part though to make everybody happy!

Diet Pepsi is good.


(Message edited by Jim Faucett on December 21, 2004)

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on December 21, 2004)

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

beer and pork rinds?

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Jim,
You're right. http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/wink.gif Except I don't always agree with their theology on non-essential things.

M or Michael

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Yeah, but them ol' Baptists sure know how to make a good cup of essential Java!

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Jim,
You got that right. One the reasons I moved to Baptist.

M or Michael

[karen (karen)]

Sermon on Advent 4
http://hereticscorner.typepad.com/the_heretics_corner/2004/12/sermon_on_adven.html#more


These days it’s difficult to open a newspaper or tune into a news program without hearing some reference to moral values. We are told that polling done immediately after the recent election indicated that many Americans are extremely concerned about the moral direction this country has been going in. America, they say, must become a righteous nation once more.

Naturally, there is disagreement as to what kind of values and morality we should be embracing. Many of the voices we’ve been hearing lately favor a righteousness based on a somewhat literal reading of the Bible and its laws, while others contend that such an interpretation tends to focus too closely on issues of individual morality and not enough on problems such as poverty and injustice, which are concerns also addressed in Scripture. As Christians we have a stake in this conversation because living in righteousness before God is one of the principle themes we take up every time we read and contemplate Scripture.

Unfortunately, this important national conversation about values and righteousness seems to have quickly deteriorated into a national argument. It seems that there is too much finger-pointing and not nearly enough grace, and a little too much emphasis on making religion neat and tidy and not enough recognition that our lives as people of faith are often lived in messiness and ambiguity.

As an alternative to the continuing argument around values, today’s Gospel reading offers a particularly good example of what happens when righteousness in the law and the prophetic word of God intersects, as it did in the life of St. Joseph.

Joseph of Nazareth was a carpenter, a Jewish peasant in a small town, who was engaged to a young woman named Mary. According to tradition, he was an older man, perhaps a widower. It must have been a wonderful day when Joseph and Mary were betrothed, because at last Joseph would have someone to not only tend the home fire and have his dinner ready when he came home from the shop – this was the woman he would love and who would love him in return, who would bear his children, and who would share his simple life and his faith.

We know that faith was important to Joseph because the Gospel describes him as a “righteous man,” a term used in the Old Testament to describe pious Jews who observed the commandments of the Torah. As a man righteous under the law Joseph tried to do God’s will by following these precepts, and he had every expectation that Mary would share the same values.

What a shock it must have been when he discovered that Mary was pregnant! One thing that Joseph knew for certain: this baby did not belong to him. We can only imagine his feelings of humiliation and betrayal! Even if he forgave Mary and decided to marry her anyway, the standards of the community in which he lived would never have allowed it, because a righteous man could not take a woman who was not a virgin into his home. As a righteous man, Joseph could not marry a woman who was an adulteress, because a community which defined itself by observance of the Law could never allow such a serious sinner to remain among them.

A more serious consequence to consider is the fact that although Joseph and Mary were not yet formally married, they had already signed a contract before witnesses, which meant that under Jewish law the regulations concerning marital purity already applied to them. If Joseph went to the priests and accused Mary of adultery, as religious law mandated he should do, Mary would be stoned to death, because this was the penalty for women who were unfaithful to their husbands. This was how a community righteous before God was supposed to handle such serious breaches of morality.

So what was Joseph to do? He was righteous under the law, and he was also merciful, caring, and compassionate. He did not want to humiliate Mary by publicly accusing her. He did not want to subject her to a community trial and a likely execution. So he decided to divorce her quietly, no doubt a difficult decision for someone who had lived his life in observance of religious law. By deciding not to accuse Mary publicly, Joseph acted out of care for another person’s welfare and dignity by choosing not to adhere strictly to the law. By making this decision, Joseph expanded the meaning of righteousness. Little did he know that the more difficult decision was yet to come.

Having decided to send Mary away, Joseph went to sleep with what was no doubt a heavy heart. As he dreams, an angelic voice calls out to him, a voice that bears an astonishing message: Don’t send her away. Marry her. Her child is the one of which the prophet speaks: Emmanuel, the one who will redeem his people.

And he does exactly that, for as Matthew tells us, “When Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him.”

And here we come to the essence of what it means to be righteous in our relationship to God and others. Joseph’s decision to obey the startling and unexpected commands of God that contradicted the letter of the law means that he is already living the heart of the law and not its letter, already living out the new and higher righteousness of the kingdom. In a difficult moral situation, he attends to the voice of God, setting aside his previous understanding of God’s will revealed in the Law in favor of this new revelation. This is faith at its most difficult and complex. This is a faith that demands that we, like Joseph, look beyond simple meanings and strict legal interpretation and engage in holy listening as we discern God’s will for us and for our world. It is the kind of faith that equipped Joseph for the difficult road ahead and that will equip us in our own lives as we struggle to bring the message of Christ to a world that needs it so badly.

This doesn’t mean that Joseph and Mary had it easy. Their marriage undoubtedly provided ammunition for gossip. It is likely that they were scorned by their community, and that Joseph was no longer considered a righteous man. Discerning God’s revelation is never easy, especially when the answers we get puts us at odds with those whose understanding of God’s will is different from our own. Entering into the process of truly listening for God’s voice ensures that a living faith is rarely neat and tidy and is seldom free from risk.

It also doesn't mean that the precepts of the Bible are outmoded, or that righteousness and morality are old-fashioned ideas that we can casually toss away; no, the Gospel for today shows us that righteousness must always be tempered by mercy, by compassion, and by careful listening and fervent prayer. This is righteousness transformed. This is the righteousness we are called to in the words of the prophet Micah: we are to do justice, but we are to LOVE mercy, and we are to walk humbly with our God. This is the righteousness of Joseph, guardian of Our Lord.

Christmas is nearly upon us, a time in which we celebrate the wonderful and yes, radical, coming of God among us as one of us. If there were ever a time to remember that our God acts creatively and expansively on our behalf, this is the time. Christmas is an opportunity to remind ourselves that God, who is all righteousness, acted toward us with mercy and compassion even though we are sinful beings. This season, let us remember the righteousness of St. Joseph of Nazareth, who defied the conventions of his time to act upon the will of God, and may we always follow in his example. AMEN.

[pob (pob)]

I don't know about all you guys, I tried to tell you back around convention, that a few thrown down in rapid succession does wonders. the paper maze of ggwo doesn't really mattter after a good liquor/beer buzz.

[david_alexander (david_alexander)]

Nonotone, why would anyone want to be in step with the likes of Luther and Calvin? Luther was a vicious hater of Jews, and Hater of the Word...that is, any of it that happened to contradict his theories....rejecting completely the inspiration of the Book of James, and coming up with a 7 point plan for the extermination of the Jews....as follows:
======================
The spirit of the Inquisition was carried right into the Protestant Reformation by John Calvin and Martin Luther, both former Catholics. Calvin was merciless to those he deemed heretics, his most famous victim being Michael Servetus, whom he had burned at the stake for the crime of not believing in the doctrine of the Trinity. Martin Luther ruthlessly persecuted the Anabaptists [2] and also penned a venomous treatise against the Jews, giving a seven-step plan to destroy them as a people (which we utterly reject and denounce): [3]

"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing, and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves ... I shall give you my sincere advice:
Set fire to their synagogues and schools, burying and covering with dirt what won’t burn, so no man will see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and Christendom.
Second, I advise that their houses be seized and destroyed.
Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings be taken from them.
Fourth, I advise that the rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of life and limb.
Fifth, I advise that safe conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews, for they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, or tradesmen. Let them stay at home.
Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and all cash and treasures be taken and kept for safekeeping.
Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an axe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses, letting them earn their bread by the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time ... boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat ... For, as we have heard, God’s anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!" (Luther’s Works)

About four hundred years later, Julius Streicher, one of the most notorious anti-Semites even in the perverse world of the Third Reich, used Martin Luther’s seven recommendations in his defense at the Nuremberg Trials. Not only was Martin Luther the spiritual father of the Protestant Reformation, but also of the Nazi Holocaust. His teachings contributed to the dehumanizing of the Jews to the degree that millions of good Lutherans and Catholics either actively participated in or passively watched the wholesale slaughter of a race.

The common denominator of all of the examples cited above is the personal hatred in the heart of a leader, especially a religious leader, towards a people with a different religion, different values, and a different way of life. It is impossible for such a leader to be objective, but instead he becomes obsessed in his passion to destroy the object of his wrath. But as a leader he must maintain some degree of composure and respectability, so rather than doing the dirty work himself, he speaks publicly about the supposed dangers of this group, gathering a following for himself by feeding their insecurities, fears, and prejudices. As people look to him as the authority on the subject, it fuels his own sense of self-importance, increasing his confidence to vilify [4] the group. Those who look to him as the authority, in their desire to be recognized themselves, inflate, distort, or even invent tales of the beliefs and practices of the hated group. So the cycle escalates until there is enough animosity for violence to break out against the group.

www.twelvetribes.com/publications/underattack.html (http://www.twelvetribes.com/publications/underattack.html)
==============

Calvin personally authorized and promoted the torture and murder of anyone within his sphere of power who disagreed with his theology...and was directly responsible for the torture and murder of large numbers of alleged "heretics", most of who were devout Anabaptists...the forerunners of todays' Mennonites, Amish and Hutterites....people who wouldn't life a finger to harm anyone.

Calvin and Luther both PROVED by their actions that their father was the devil...the one who has been a murderer from the beginnning.

So I ask you, Nonotone...why on earth would you, or anyone with a wise and sincere heart...desire to follow the lead of such persons?

Peace, David

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Jim....he's all yours.

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

BE GONE!
~POOF~

(did it work? is scarey man still here?)

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Bells_joy,

Some only come out by prayer and fasting.

David,

No one but you is trying to get anyone to "be" anything. You ARE NOT any of these folks judge, so back off! We are here to help. You are trying to proselytize, and worst of all among the wounded. If one finds help in this Church and that one in another, as long as it is not a cult (which yours certainly sounds like) then PRAISE GOD!

May you see the light Sir, and realize that the Holy Spirit is speaking to these precious souls, so you need to "bug off."

Ralph

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Correction on Luther:
http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/libel_againstluther.htm
(Context people, Context)

Michael Servetus
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s36.html

Jesus called them "A Brood of vipers" He was obviously not intending all Jews which would include Himself. Obviously there was a context, plain and simple. Same as with Luther. But people only see the words they want and forget context and so distort all intended meaning of men and the Bible.

Apolgetics Index Link for Twelve Tribes:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/t29.html

Quote from Apolgetics Index:
"This high-demand, racist group is led and controlled by "Super Apostles" Elbert Eugene Spriggs, aka Yoneq.

The group's aberrant and heretical teachings identify it, theologically, as a cult of Christianity. Sociologically, there are cultic elements as well, including the high level of control leveled over the group's followers, as well as the beating of children.

The New England Institute of Religious Research (NEIRR), a countercult organization, has done extensive research into this group (among other things, the NEIRR has examined 20 years worth of the group's teachings). "

Unfortunately on factnet it's quite common for people to try and deceive the weak and wounded. That is what I stand up against. I take up my cross daily and deny myself. I will not stand for a false prophet or false teacher to attack these people. Even if your teachings were true it is not the time, place, or people to do it with and obviously not welcomed. I don't read anywhere that Jesus would approve such actions when these people are seeking to be healed. It would be no better than the Amalekites who attacked the week and wounded of Israel.

As for the people here for healing, this is why we must know the essentials, but also know when people come your way what they believe. They may say they know Jesus, but which Jesus. They may say they believe God, but what is His character and nature? Read the Apologetics Index information and you begin to see what the distortions are. It's unfortunate that you have to deal with this on top of what you're coming out of. But it's quite clear you're not unaware at all the Devil's schemes. It's wonderful to see you standing up for your faith and your brothers and sisters in Christ against such deceptions.

M or Michael

[david_alexander (david_alexander)]

Well, Ralph....you are trying to speak for everyone on this board....and in case you haven't noticed, it is a public place. I am here, and you certainly don't speak for me. This isn't your private playground. So you back off; I am not going anywhere.

You ARE trying to get people to "be" something when you don't try to get people to "be" anything....you are trying to get people to be complacent...which is a surer road to hell than any other on earth.

Yahshua COMMANDED those of us who are actually WILLING to DO what He said, to try to get people to BE SOMETHING...He commanded us to try to get people to become His disciples...by " teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you"(Matt. 28:20)

That is the Great Commission, Ralph...not to get people to simply believe that "Jesus did it all"...but to make disciples by teaching men (men who are willing) to trust Him enough to DO ALL THINGS THAT HE COMMANDED". That is where true healing lies...and it can be found nowhere else.

And the Word plainly forbids simply assuming people are actually disciples, just because they think they are...we are exhorted in I Corinthians 13:5 to TEST OURSELVES, to see if we are really "in the faith"...or if we "fail the test".

And that is the purpose of The Litmus Test.

I responded to a post from Nanotone....he said the following:

"David_Alexander - when you can write a detailed treatise of how your BS is in-step with 2000 years of historical Christianity INCLUDING Luther, Calvin, and Edwards THEN some of us might start to listen to you....."

I gave a serious and reasonable response to the above statement, Ralph. Who do you think YOU are, to question my right to do so? Who made you the Pope of Factnet?

The assumption behind such a statement is that being "in step" with the likes of Luther and Calvin is a prerequisite to being taken seriously by a "serious Christian".

That's a very weird assumption, given the historical record of what Luther and Calvin were guilty of; they had people TORTURED AND MURDERED FOR DISAGREEING WITH THEM....and actually thought they were doing God service in the process.

Luther and Calvin can have people tortured and burned....and explain away the Gospel....and they are the "standard" for truth?

Someone please explain to me, how men who can do such things; or write such madness as Luther's seven point plan for destroying the Jews; can possibly be thought by a reasonable person to have carried the same Spirit of Truth as the meek and lowly Lamb of God. I am asking a serious question here, Ralph. Is that OK? Do you have an answer for me?

Ralph, I KNOW what it is like to have been deeply involved in a church or group...only to have my hope crushingly disappointed. But I also know that after 27 years of such experiences, I finally found a Way, a Truth and a Life that actually matches up with John 13:33,34, John 17:21, 1 John 3:14,16 and Acts 2 &amp; 4....And for me, finding this life has been a joy beyond words. It is as if I wandered in the desert for 27 years, chasing mirage after mirage, looking for Living Water....only to grab handfuls of sand, time after time after time...and then, finally, I find another seeming pool...and jump in....and IT'S THE REAL THING!!!!!

What would you do, Ralph? I would drink and drink and drink till I was satisfied...and then scour the desert looking for other poor souls dying of thirst like I was....and tell them where the real water was, that would not prove unreal or bitter in the end. That is what I would do. Love can do no less.

People being wounded is NOT a good reason to refrain from offering a place where true healing can be found. I have found that place, Ralph...and I can do no less than make it known.

The Holy Spirit IS speaking here, Ralph...but not through you. I am a serious person, created in the image of God, asking serious questions..and you throw out garbage like "some only come out by prayer and fasting"? Implying that I am simply a demon-possessed nut? Even though you don't even know me, or my life? What spirit speaks like that, Ralph? Not the Spirit of God, for sure.

If anyone really wants to be a disciple, and find true Living Water as I have, they can find out how at www.TheLitmusTest.org (http://www.TheLitmusTest.org)

Peace, David

[bells_joy (bells_joy)]

sorry chris, he makes my skin crawl, and my teeth chatter.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

The Living Water is Jesus, not twelve tribes.

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[doris (doris)]

they're coming to take me away ha ha....

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Doris,
Uh-oh, you're not heading for the foxhole again are you? lol

M or Michael

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Do not run for the foxhole Doris, you ARE a mighty woman of God, and obviously wearing the full armor.

Ralph
1Cor 15:10

[david_alexander (david_alexander)]

mmm....so the Apologetics Index thinks I am in a Cult??? Has the Apologetics Index brought into being communities of people who forsake all to love one another as Yahshua loved, and live together as one?

I doubt it.

Well, since the Apologetics Index isn't bearing the fruit of true apostolic gifting...and the people who lead the Twelve Tribes are doing so...I guess I know who deserves to be listened to.

As for the NEIRR...they could meet in a phone booth. They consist of one Calvinist pastor and his wife...they see (or rather, do not see) truth through the filthy prism of a proven murderer...that is, John Calvin. I am not calling him names...it is simply historical fact that he had numerous people tortured and murderered for the crime of disagreeing with his theology.

It is hard to take criticism seriously from people who are disciples of Calvin(a proven murderer) rather than disciples of the Lamb of God. It is hard to take it seriously...but because we are serious, thoughtful people, as disciples should be, we do take it seriously, and produced a very clear point by point reply to the NEIRR's criticism of us. We published it years ago, asking him for a reply to our questions of him; but he has no answer for the points we make in it. It can be found at:

http://www.twelvetribes.com/controversies/neirr-response.html

If people claim to possess truth, they should be able to earnestly contend for it, as the Word commands.

David

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Amen, Doris!

[chris (chris)]

Isn't it interesting that we have conflicting reports, and I have read them before, concerning Calvin and Luther...their beliefs and actions. Were any of us there? Do any of us really know the truth? Isn't this the case with all we read and hear that we have not personally experienced ourselves, that we don't know the truth- and even if we do see and hear we can still be deceived.

It seems more productive to me to lead and encourge people in their personal relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit. He is the only one we can completely trust, and He is the one Who knows all things.

If I do not learn to trust the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me then I will end up putting my trust in what men say...which may or may not be the truth.

We've all been down that street before with GGWO. I hope we have learned our lesson well and not leave ourselves open to deception by following anyone again, apart from the leading of the Holy Spirit.

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

David,
Not just them, so do we here.

Quote:Has the Apologetics Index brought into being communities of people who forsake all to love one another as Yahshua loved, and live together as one?

Response: As a result of their work people are leaving cults and joining living biblical churches and loving one another as Christ commanded. They sure don't promote abusing of children and affirm lying as do 12 tribes. The only community you produce is one that serves doctrine of your so-called apostle that says it's okay to lie, abuse children, etc.

Quote:Well, since the Apologetics Index isn't bearing the fruit of true apostolic gifting...and the people who lead the Twelve Tribes are doing so...I guess I know who deserves to be listened to.

Response: You do NOT have any apostolic gifting. Apostleship was specific in it's terms. You cannot say you were alive and seen the risen Christ and bestowed any apostleship whatsoever. If that were true you would show it in signs, wonders, miracles, and by your faith, which you can't do and say that it's okay to lie, abuse children, and that blacks should be slaves. So much for apostleship.
http://www.twelvetribes-ex.org/apostle.html

http://www.cultsandsociety.com/csr_news/csr_newsgrp/twelve_tribes_2002_02_31.htm

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/letter-messianiccommunity.html

Your historical facts as you call it, you should do a little studying. You simply claim that you can dismiss anyone because you think they follow Calvin. By that definition no one should follow the teaching of your apostle either since he promoted lying, child abuse, etc.

I'm serious too and I follow Christ and His teachings. Sorry but you're a cult by theological and sociological definitions. I think people made it quite clear they have no desire to hear what you have to say. After that you're just forcing yourself on people and Yahshua never approved that.

I'm not going to be able to answer for a few days. But I gave enough resources for the people here and they know enough about contending for the faith to refute you distortions of the scriptures to support your abusive cultic behavior.

M or Michael

[rjfernalld (rjfernalld)]

Doris...right on!!! He's a waste of space and a waste of time. A cultic troll.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

David,
Your responses on Luther and Calvin are typical repetitions of misinformation down the years. Mike has given you enough of a response.

So what if some Nazi quoted Luther? You want to blame Luther for what someone did 400 years after his death? You're just stirring up trouble. Everyone here knows Luther and Calvin were men with flaws--and men of their age.

Let's look at the verses you quote David:

<font color="0000ff">John 13:33-34 (ESV)
Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, 'Where I am going you cannot come.' [34] A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

John 17:21 (ESV)
that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

1 John 3:14 (ESV)
We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

1 John 3:16 (ESV)
By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.</font>

I would be willing to wager, David, that you don't have a biblical understanding of the Christ you claim to profess. The reason I say that is that you are here pumping for the Twelve Tribes and using Christ as a vehicle. He is just a name for you.

I would also wager that you don't have a biblical view of the Holy Spirit either, or the Father, or the church.

Groups like yours and people like you are here to say how we (and all the rest of Christianity) have all got it wrong and your group are the "true disciples." Your website even says as much. You live in communes, divest yourselves of private property, work in common cottage industries and call that real Christianity. You have divided your group into twelve regions where you have houses, and you call them tribes. You use Hebrew transliteration and you think it is more spiritual. You give yourselves Hebrew sounding names because you think this is more spiritual. You maintain your hippie image because you think it separates you from the world and then when the world finds you weird you blame the world. The world is not seeing Christ in you or your group David, so that they might believe--they are seeing weird people who are 60s and 70s remnants--leftovers--people who can't manage to live out their Christian lives while working amongst the lost of the world.

How did Christ love us? He kept the Law he was made under perfectly, perpetually, personally AND He gave himself a sacrifice for our sin. So we are then called to owe no man anything except to love one another because the law is fulfilled in love. But love is practical.

Do you really love the authority that God sets up in HIS Church, David? Those men who are not self appointed prophets but rather are recognized for their gifts and calling? Do you honor them who God has called down throughout the history of HIS church who have led millions to the Lord Jesus--God our Savior? I think not. I think you are rebellious against that real authority and that is why you are an escapist. Neither do you want to work in the world under anyone else's authority thereby also rejecting the love you are commanded to have for them.

Do you really love the lives of others David? Do you love the Truth as you say? Do you hold to the truths about what the written word of God says about the God Man--the only mediator between God and Man? Do you think you have succeeded when you bring another poor soul into your own group? The scriptures say that heaven rejoices when one who is lost comes to the Savior who came to seek that which was lost. I don't think you actually care for their lives, you just care for your group.

Do you uphold the sanctity of marriage, David, and the privacy of the nuclear family? Do you uphold the right of parents to bring up their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord? Has your group ever come between husband and wife? Do you condemn those who in their families don't toe the party line? I would wager that in your so-called "tribal" houses there is control exerted over others that is unbiblical. You will find that the "having all things in common" was not something that the early church preached as a norm, but rather was a means for the moment. Deuteronomy 6 presumes that a man raises his own family in his OWN house, not that everyone lives together in a yellow submarine. I am sure that your "tribes" have a perverted understanding of the family--and therefore you cannot love others as Christ loved them.

Do you believe in private property rather than communal ownership, David? Private property is advocated in the eighth commandment and if you love your neighbor you will not only not steal from him but you will advocate that men acquire what is sufficient for godly contentment. If you do not love your neighbor enough to help him secure his own living for his own family you don't love your neighbor. I don't think your 'tribes' exhibit this kind of love.

Do you proclaim the truth of the Bible, David? I don't think you do. I think you are out not to lead people to Christ but into your 'tribes' and you think you have a monopoly on orthopraxy. You lead people away from the Truth in Christ David, which makes you a liar. And if you are leading people toward a lie, David, you don't love them as Christ commanded you. You rather hate them and their lives because you have believed and are propagating a lie that leads precious souls away from the God Man, The Lord Jesus.

And what is your motive? Is it really as you say that you have found 'something' to quench your thirst and you have the 'living water' to offer others? If your motive is not to glorify Christ and enjoy him alone, then you are covetous of some other thing. And if you are covetous of some other thing, some other reward other than the inheritance that is Christ with ALL the saints then you do not love others as Christ commanded and neither do your 'tribes.'

These are Christ's commandments. You do not keep them. You do not love others as Christ has commanded. How can you, being so blind yourself, presume to lead any of us?

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Well said Jim.

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Jim,
Take a look at their litmus test on page 15 on What It Means To Believe. Please stay in your chair though. Don't want you to laugh too hard at their conclusion.

I'll have to read it some day after the holidays. Might give a good insight into all their bad assumptions.

Enjoy.

M or Michael

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Jim,
Great. They seem to live around the idea of the community theme. Destroy that notion and I think the whole thing crumbles on itself. To say that the church basically stopped that would mean that Christ words "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" was a lie.

OH, btw, I had to laugh when I read "yellow submarine". Now I got that song in my head again. lol we all live......

M or Michael

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Thanks, Mike, I will put on my seatbelt when I read their stuff. Hey, does nwmo stand for northwest missouri?

[nwmomike (nwmomike)]

Jim,
You got it! I wondered if people would figure it out. It's was about -1 this morning. I wish it was southern florida or bahamas. brrrr

M or Michael

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Hebrews 12:1-3 (ESV)
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, [2] looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
[3] Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.


I was not there in the days of the Prophets but they testified of the Christ to come. I was not there during the times of the Apostles, but the church is here today in testimony of their building a foundation in Christ.

There is a great cloud of witnesses, saints triumphant through all the ages--who were led of the Spirit to proclaim Christ in their day. We were not there, but we are HERE NOW because of them. Without them we do not inherit the promises, nor they without us. The church is both triumphant and militant. History is HIS story--in spite of the failures of feeble and frail men with flaws the gospel was and is proclaimed. The Acts of the Holy Spirit did not end in chapter 28--nor was he remiss in acting to provide a church against which the gates of hell did not prevail in any age. Though in many times it may be difficult to ascertain just where are those 7000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal, they are there--and always have been. We throw out and disregard the history of the church--which is the Body of Christ gathered by the Holy Spirit--at our peril. This is not the time to proclaim the "church of what's happenin' now" without considering that great cloud of witnesses. It matters nothing if WE were not there--HE was and is now.

Psalm 145:4 (ESV)
One generation shall commend your works to another,
and shall declare your mighty acts.

God's greatest works are done in human hearts down through the ages--why in the world would we want to disregard them?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Forecast for December 24, 2004 in sunny SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS---<font color="ff0000">SNOW WITH ACCUMULATION!!!</font>

Current temperature at 12:04 PM CST <font color="ff0000">34 degrees!!!</font>

[maria_t (maria_t)]

ditto Doris~!

We'll send it right to Jim.

Maria

[doug (doug)]

RE: The above post by DAVID ALAXANDER
This is a teaching from the communities Apostle "Yoneq", otherwise known as Eugene Elbert Spriggs, that David Alaxander in his above post is prosletising for.

For more info see "Twelve Tribes" on this web site.

<font color="ff0000">Execution of Justice
(Letter from Elbert concerning discipline and the seed of Abraham)
The reason Isaac was so willing to let his father sacrifice him was because he had
been raised his whole life knowing that he did not belong to himself, but belonged to his
father, and he was not living for himself, but living for his father. Hephzibah is coming to
understand that she is living for her father and belongs to him. The other day she was
having great difficulty being obedient to his command: not to suck her thumb in bed.
Elbert asked her to stick out her thumb because he was going to cut it off. He took a
huge pair of scissors and came toward her. She was terrified, but (after receiving her
discipline) she willingly stuck out her thumb to be cut off rather than let it cause her to
stumble in her obedience to her father. Elbert didn’t actually cut it off, but he wants
Hephzibah to understand that it is better to have your hand cut off now rather than later.
He wants her to be saved.
It is absolutely necessary to raise our children to know that they do not belong to
themselves, but to their father. How else can they believe that they don’t belong to
themselves except by training them as our Heavenly Father trains us to believe this. We
only “regain our true life” if we lose our false and criminal life. Whoever wants to save
Execution of Justice Page 6
1900.00.16-L01.DOC 020612.1326
his life will lose it, and whoever loses it for My sake shall find it. Abraham received back
the promise only after he had killed his only son the only son who could bring about the
promise. Abraham had faith to surrender his only heir. Abraham was tested. He endured
under trial to see whether he would obey (Heb 11:17-19; Gen 22:1; Jms 1:12). Abraham
obeyed by faith for he heard God say, “Abraham, take your son, your only son Isaac,
whom you love, and go sacrifice him.”
The error of “the local church” and many churches is in allowing doctrine to
substitute for obedience. We can do as they say, but not as they do, for they do not truly
discern the Body of Messiah though they have much wonderful doctrine. Without seeing
Gen 18:19, the Body of Messiah doesn’t make sense.</font>
Note: Elbert is not the little girls father but is the apostle of the community. I don't see a close resemblance to his lying to a little girl and teaching the faith that Abraham had in Isaac.

David responded on Dec 21
<font color="0000ff">I don't know anything about the above...but I DO KNOW that the truth that sets men free can be found at www.TheLitmusTest.org (http://www.TheLitmusTest.org)
It is for Christians Only. Truth will always be attacked. Those who are wise will not be put off by such things. The fact is, anyone who wants to see the fruit of our lives can visit us at anytime; and see that our children are some of the most wonderful on the whole earth. As the Word says, "wisdom is justified by her children". Sincerely, david</font>

My reply Dec 22
David
<font color="0000ff">I don't know anything about the above…</font>
Are you saying you don't know if Spriggs taught that and if it is one of the communities teachings or you don't know if there is anything wrong with what was alleged in the teaching CD that Jacob took from the community?

[yahshua (yahshua)]

John 10:7 ¶ Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:8 All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
John 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
John 10:11 ¶ “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.
John 10:13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
John 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
John 10:17 ¶ “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
John 10:18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
John 10:19 ¶ Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings.
John 10:20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”
John 10:21 ¶ Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
John 10:22 ¶ Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.
John 10:23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch.
John 10:24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
John 10:25 ¶ Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.
John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

I will have one flock, and one shepherd; My sheep know me, and hear my voice; they are those who hear my words, and keep them; they forsake all for love, just as I did, and as I commanded them. Those who would know my Way, it is on the earth once again; you can find it, and go to serve Me with my true servants where I am, at www.TheLitmusTest.org (http://www.TheLitmusTest.org)

Only if you hate your life in this world, can you keep it for life eternal (John 12:25,26)

[minutus (minutus)]

Is your room nicely swept for more demons, Yas-hooie?

[yahshua (yahshua)]

Those who truly worship me in Spirit and in Truth, love one another just as I loved My disciples. My true ones forsake all for Me and for one another, just as I and My disciples forsook all for My sake and to love one another.

Those on this board offer a form of religion that gives people a false assurance of salvation; that tells them they can keep their lives and riches and still be My followers. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I say to my true followers, they are blessed when men say all manner of evil against them falsely for the sake of My Name, for in the same way evil men spoke against the prophets that were before them. They are to rejoice and leap for joy, for great is their reward in heaven.

These false ones that speak against my People, or who offer themselves as blind guides, apart from my true Way, I say are those spoken of by the prophet Jeremias...

Jer. 6:10 To whom shall I speak and give warning,
That they may hear?
Indeed their ear is uncircumcised,
And they cannot give heed.
Behold, the word of the LORD is a reproach to them;
They have no delight in it.
Jer. 6:11 Therefore I am full of the fury of the LORD.
I am weary of holding it in.
“I will pour it out on the children outside,
And on the assembly of young men together;
For even the husband shall be taken with the wife,
The aged with him who is full of days.
Jer. 6:12 And their houses shall be turned over to others,
Fields and wives together;
For I will stretch out My hand
Against the inhabitants of the land,” says the LORD.
Jer. 6:13 “Because from the least of them even to the greatest of them,
Everyone is given to covetousness;
And from the prophet even to the priest,
Everyone deals falsely.
Jer. 6:14 They have also healed the hurt of My people slightly,
Saying, “Peace, peace!’
When there is no peace.
Jer. 6:15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination?
No! They were not at all ashamed;
Nor did they know how to blush.
Therefore they shall fall among those who fall;
At the time I punish them,
They shall be cast down,” says the LORD.
Jer. 6:16 ¶ Thus says the LORD:
“Stand in the ways and see,
And ask for the old paths, where the good way is,
And walk in it;
Then you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’


Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old paths, where the good way is, and walk in it,

Then you will find rest for your souls.

My old Way is on the earth again;
Peace and healing can be found there,
My Abba sets the lonely in families,
He heals the brokenhearted and weary ones.

As my People of old were one in mind and heart,
and walked in one Way, together with me, sharing all things with one another, and also sharing in my suffering together with me,
so is it once more with my holy ones that I am raising up. All things spoken of by all my holy prophets since the world began are being restored and fulfilled through my sent ones.

He who hears them, hears Me; and he who hears Me, hears Him who sent Me.

He who rejects them, rejects Me; and he who rejects Me, rejects Him who sent Me.

The Way to My Way can be found at www.TheLitmusTest.org (http://www.TheLitmusTest.org)

[hodeuon (hodeuon)]

Mr. Alexander,

John 10:13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.

28 churches and cults in how many years? Does not the verse you yourself quoted indict you?

Hodeuon

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Q. What do you believe
concerning "the Holy Spirit"?

A. First, he, as well as the Father and the Son,
is eternal God.

Second, he has been given to me personally,
so that, by true faith,
he makes me share in Christ and all his blessings,
comforts me,
and remains with me forever.

Q. What do you believe
concerning "the holy catholic church"?
A. I believe that the Son of God
through his Spirit and Word,
out of the entire human race,
from the beginning of the world to its end,
gathers, protects, and preserves for himself
a community chosen for eternal life
and united in true faith.
And of this community I am and always will be
a living member.

Q. What do you understand by
"the communion of saints"?
A. First, that believers one and all,
as members of this community,
share in Christ
and in all his treasures and gifts.

Second, that each member
should consider it a duty
to use these gifts
readily and cheerfully
for the service and enrichment
of the other members.

Q. What do you believe
concerning "the forgiveness of sins"?
A. I believe that God,
because of Christ's atonement,
will never hold against me
any of my sins
nor my sinful nature
which I need to struggle against all my life.

Rather, in his grace
God grants me the righteousness of Christ
to free me forever from judgment.

Q. How does "the resurrection of the body"
comfort you?
A. Not only my soul
will be taken immediately after this life
to Christ its head,
but even my very flesh, raised by the power of Christ,
will be reunited with my soul
and made like Christ's glorious* body.

Q. How does the article
concerning "life everlasting"
comfort you?
A. Even as I already now
experience in my heart
the beginning of eternal joy,
so after this life I will have
perfect blessedness such as
no eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no human heart has ever imagined:
a blessedness in which to praise God eternally.


All of the above is the work of the Holy Spirit amongst us.

[ex_yathed (ex_yathed)]

BEWARE!!! and be AWARE!
I just saw on another page of the Religious Cults and Sects page that David Alexander(aka Daveed Derush, he also goes under the name Yahshua) is evangelizing (recruiting) all over this web site with links to their newest "Free Papers"(Litmus Test). Its from a computer in Georgia so he is either at their Savannah or Brunswick community.

So, if you dont know, the Twelve Tribes are considered a high control destructive fundamentalist group (cult) by countless professionals and Cult experts.
You can check out there threads under Religious Cults and sects: Twelve Tribes,Community of Believers, Northeast Kingdom

[arguendo (arguendo)]

For Lana

[sojourner (sojourner)]

Those of you who responded to mr litmus testy tribes have my deepest respect for your calm, well appointed answer. He is an example of someone who trades off a true relationship with Christ for some idiot claiming to be the only one tuned in. The idea of threatening to cut off a toddlers thumb to help her learn she is not her own as a practical illustration made me sick. They should be arrested for that alone. They can have a nice community together in a high security prision as far as I am concerned. God help them, only He can. How scarey is deception.
Patricia

[cordell]

This one is good on hermeneutics.