Recommended Reading List II

[Jim Faucett (66.90.181.249)]

The other thread was getting just too long for the dial up folks. Please browse the other thread for great reading and listening recommendations. Here are a few more to move on with:

The Heart of Evangelism
Jerram Barrs
Crossway Books, 2001
Wheaton IL

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">"One of the most common objections non-Christians raise against the Christian faith is the reality of God's judgment. This "problem" is also one the most frequent matters of concern, doubt and struggle for believers as well as unbelievers. We might ask, "Why are not more people Christians? Where is God? What is he doing? Why are so many people judged by him? What about all those people who never heard the Gospel? Doesn't God care about people? Is he truly a God of love? Is he fair and just in his judgment?" the impression we sometimes give with such questions about God is that we care more about people than God does, that we would do anything to make sure lost people are saved, whereas God is too laid back about the whole problem of the destiny of unbelievers. It is as if we think we are eager to save people, but God is reluctant. But is it true that God is the one who is reluctant to reach people with the good news of Christ's salvation?"</FONT>

Jim Faucett (somebonus@yahoo.com)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

A Better Way: Rediscovering the Drama of Christ Centered Worship
Michael Horton
Baker Books, 2002
Grand Rapids

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">"The weak things of God have become not so much despised as ignored in much of contemporary Christianity. Instead, we look for the powerful things of the world. And then we wonder why we get worldly results: consumers rather than disciples. But traditionalism shouldn't get off easily either. If believers are looking for an exciting encounter with God apart from the Word, we must ask why this is. Is it just because our age is like the Middle Ages, visual rather than verbal? Or could it also be that many of us have turned the service into a dry, purely rational and yet unreflective routine? None of us gets off easily when it comes to the comtemporary state of worship."</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

God Has Spoken: Revelation and the Bible
J.I. Packer
Baker Books, 1979
Grand Rapids

<FONT COLOR="119911">"...I imply that our eternal destiny may depend on our attending to the Bible. In an age in which many do not attend to the Bible, some may find this implication at first blush incredible. So I had best come clean and face at once the question: do you really mean that? and are you asking us to swallow it? The answer is yes, in the following sense. First: in speaking of eternal destiny, I refer to tht state of joy or grief beyond death of which I have learned from Jesus Christ, God's incarnate Son, who rose from the dead, and about which the authors of the New Testament, whom I take to be God-inspired and therefore worthy of trust, all agree. I am talking not of survival as such, but of a future state in which we consciously reap what we have actually sown. The New Testament makes plain tht this life, in which bodies grow and wear out while characters get fixed, is an ante-chamber, dressing-room and moral gymnasium where whether we know it or not, we all in fact prepare ourselvesfor a future life which will correspond for each of us to what we have chosen to be, and will have in it more of joy for some and distress for others than this world ever knows. 'For we each must appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him fo the things done while in the body, whether good or bad'(2Cor.5:10)"</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

The Bible Tells Us So
R.B. Kuiper
The Banner of Truth Trust, 1968,1978
Edinburgh, UK and Carlisle, PA

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">"God is the sovereign Ruler of the universe. His sovereignty is absolute. Shall we say that He is sovereignty personified? For that very reason man is responsible to him. We may not be able to harmonize divine sovereignty and human responsibility with each other, but it is safe to assert that the latter is a corollary of the former. If God were less than sovereign, man would be less than responsible. Since God is absolutely sovereign, man is wholly responsible to him. A theologian once said this: 'Calvinism stresses divine sovereignty, Arminianism stresses human responsibility.' A worse caricature is hardly conceivable. That Calvinism stresses divine sovereignty more strongly than Arminianism is obvious. But precisely for that reason it stresses human responsibility more strongly than does Arminianism. Is it not the teaching of Arminianism that God never requires of man that which he cannot do, but adjusts the demands of his law to the enfeebled powers of fallen man? According to the Reformed faith God makes no such concession. He keeps demanding of man whatever he was capable of in the state of rectitude. He requires of man not merely what has come to be known as 'evangelical obedience'; he insists on perfect obedience. He commands, "Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." [Matt. 5:48]"</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

The Christ of the Covenants
O. Palmer Robertson
P&amp;R, 1980
Phillipsburg, NJ


<FONT COLOR="ff0000">"A covenant is not a testament.

A covenant is a bond in blood. It involves commitments with life and death consequences. At the point of covenantal inauguration, the parties of the covenant are committed to one another by a formalizing process of blood-shedding. This blood shedding represents the intensity of the commitment fo the covenant. By the covenant they are bound for life and death. A COVENANT IS A BOND-IN-BLOOD SOVEREIGNLY ADMINISTERED."</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Concerning the ministry of Open Air Campaigners:

"OAC is an international and interdenominational mission which has been taking the good news of Jesus Christ to those outside the church since 1892.

Our evangelists go wherever non-Christians can be reached effectively with the gospel. City-centre open-air meetings are an important part of the work in many countries, but we also work in schools, on beaches, in factories, on ships, in hospitals and retirement homes..."

Open Air Campaigners Website (http://www.oaci.org/home/)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="119911">Listen online to this week's edition of "The White Horse Inn": "What is Covenant Theology?"

Listen weekly for lively theological discussion. Theologians Michael Horton, Ken Jones, Kim Riddlebarger, and Rod Rosenbladt unravel the meaning of scripture passages and make learning theology interesting and dynamic.</FONT>

White Horse Inn Program LISTEN NOW! (http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/the_white_horse_inn/)

Horton and Riddlebarger are Reformed, Rosenbladt is Lutheran and Ken Jones is Baptist--and they all get along fine!

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Find a good church near you!

Click here to find a great church near you! (http://www.pcanet.org/directory.asp)

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

I like that site JF , about the Open Air Campaigners ..

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

One of my best friends has been with them since 1989.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Dining with The Devil: The Megachurch Movement Flirts With Modernity
Os Guinness
Baker Books, Hourglass Books 1993
Grand Rapids

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">"One Main Question:
When all is said and done, the church-growth movement will stand or fall by one question. In implementing its vision of church growth, is the church of Christ primarily guided and shaped by its own character and calling--or by considerations and circumstances alien to itself? Or, to put the question differently, is the church of Christ a social reality truly shaped by a theological cause, namely the Word and Spirit of God? In sum, what--in practice--is the church's decisive authority?"</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="119911">Cartoon "Kudzu": (Two fellows sitting on a hill, first one says),"If you can believe the infomercials, there are lots of people who believe their lives will improve..." (Next frame)..."if only their buttocks are firmer!..." (next frame they sit, final frame the other fellow speaks) "Buns of Steel--Brains of Silly Putty!"</FONT>

Fit Bodies Fat Minds: Why Evangelicals Don't Think And What To Do About It
Os Guinness
Baker Books, Hourglass Books 1994
Grand Rapids

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">"Anti-intellectualism is a disposition to discount the importance of truth and the life of the mind. Living in a sensuous culture and an increasingly emotional democracy, American evangelicals in the last generation have simultaneously toned up their bodies and dumbed down their minds. The result? Many suffer from a modern form of what the ancient stoics called "mental hedonism"--having fit bodies but fat minds."</FONT>

Partial Table of Contents:
Part One: A Ghost Mind
1. Polarization
2. Pietism
3. Primitivism
4. Populism
5. Pluralism
6. Pragmatism
7. Philistinism
8. Premillenialism

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Made in America: The Shaping of Modern American Evangelicalism
Michael Horton
Baker Books, 1991
Grand Rapids

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Is America a promised land, stolen by secular humanists? Has there ever been another nation so dedicated to the Lord? The Bible describes one theocratic promised land--an earthly Israel foreshadowing a heavenly Jerusalem. But the myth motivates us to become part of a movement to repair a chosen nation. During the last two decades the rhetoric about a God who had been ejected from the classrooms and courtrooms drew heavily on the theme of recovering the promised land. Thus, in this scenario, secularization is blamed on secular humanists.

The idea of a Christian America is mythical not only in biblical prophecy but also in history. There never was a time since our founding as a nation when the republic was self-consciously Christian, in the biblical sense..."</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">Can we trust what we have been taught at school? Think of the 'subjects' we learn that are not purely numerical--history, english and literature, science. Can we trust what and how we have been taught? If we were able, in history for example, to actually speak to a participant of the times and conditions -- and to read actual documents of the times--wouldn't we have a better perspective? In some cases we can and the following site provides just such an experience--in some cases we can listen to sound recordings of the actual participants:</FONT>

"American Slave Narratives: An Online Anthology

From 1936 to 1938, over 2,300 former slaves from across the American South were interviewed by writers and journalists under the aegis of the Works Progress Administration. These former slaves, most born in the last years of the slave regime or during the Civil War, provided first-hand accounts of their experiences on plantations, in cities, and on small farms. Their narratives remain a peerless resource for understanding the lives of America's four million slaves. What makes the WPA narratives so rich is that they capture the very voices of American slavery, revealing the texture of life as it was experienced and remembered. Each narrative taken alone offers a fragmentary, microcosmic representation of slave life. Read together, they offer a sweeping composite view of slavery in North America, allowing us to explore some of the most compelling themes of nineteenth-century slavery, including labor, resistance and flight, family life, relations with masters, and religious belief.

This web site provides an opportunity to read a sample of these narratives, and to see some of the photographs taken at the time of the interviews. The entire collection of narratives can be found in George P. Rawick, ed., The American Slave: A Composite Autobiography (Westport, Conn.: Greenwood Press, 1972-79)."

The American Slave Narratives (http://xroads.virginia.edu/~hyper/wpa/wpahome.html)

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

"Why is slavery in and of itself evil? We assume from our history that the enslavement of Africans was completely an evil thing because we were taught the winners' propaganda."

You said this in a discussion on the Quinlan thread, and as yet, despite your lengthy answers to others there, you havn't yet answered my question...do you believe this? Why?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

A short answer is this, a longer answer will have to wait:

In our study of history in our schools we have reduced our 'teaching' to propaganda or we have arrived at our conclusions from other propaganda. Was there evil treatment of African slaves by slaveowners? Of course there was. If I only read the abolitionist propaganda at the time, for example William Lloyd Garrisons "Liberator," I would come to the conclusion that all slaveholders were evil people who mistreated their slaves. Is it a well known fact that there were very wealthy Native American and African American slaveowners prior to and during the Civil War? We are not taught this. Is it well known that over 40,000 black troops fought for the Southern cause, voluntarily and in many cases in integrated regiments, and that there is a monument to them in Arlington? Nope. Was the treatment of slaves in many cases cruel and inhuman? Yes. Was it humane, and even loving in other cases? Without a doubt. Like any other historical phenomenon, African slavery was not as, forgive the pun, as black and white as we'd like it to be.

About five years ago, I was teaching American History in a private High School. A movement endorsed by many pastors advocated 'reparations' for the descendents of former slaves. At about that same time I received from a relative a will dated 1847 from a direct ancestor of mine. This man owned thirteen slaves. How horrible, I thought. Why would he not, if he was a good man, just set his slaves free? Then I read the will and realized what this ancestor was doing. He knew, as did many others, that freed slaves were often captured and resold. He knew that slaves, being like any other property, would be sold off if there was no will to provide for them. So this ancestor made sure that those slaves would be in his family for perpetuity. That his children would not be able to inherit his property and then sell these people. They were to remain "in the family" but not only that--they were to remain together with their families--not separated from one another as he'd seen happen so often. So I had to conclude from the facts in my own family's history that all slaveowners were not 'Simon Legrees' who constantly beat and tortured their slaves. So when I questioned the view that African slavery is completely evil, I meant that that is the impression we come away with when we are taught propaganda rather than historical fact. Let me end by providing this insight by Keith Richburg, an African American. He could just as easily be saying, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good:"

"Sometime, maybe four hundred years ago, one of my ancestors was taken from his village, probably by a local chieftain. He was shackled in leg irons, kept in a holding pen or a dark pit, possibly at Goree Island off the coast of Senegal. And then he was put in the crowded, filthy, hold of a ship for the long and treacherous voyage across the Atlantic to the New World.

Many slaves died on that voyage. But not my ancestor. Maybe it was because he was strong, maybe just stubborn, or maybe he had an irrepressible will to live. But he survived, and ended up in forced slavery working on plantations in the Caribbean.
Generations on down the line, one of his descendants was taken to South Carolina. Finally, a more recent descendant, my father, moved to Detroit to find a job in an auto plant during the Second World War.

And so it was that I came to be born in Detroit and that 35 years later, a black man born in white America, I was in Africa, birthplace of my ancestors, standing at the edge of a river not as an African but as an American journalist - a mere spectator - watching the bloated bodies of black Africans cascading over a waterfall. And that's when I thought about how, if things had been different, I might have been one of them -or might have met some similarly anonymous fate in one of the countless ongoing civil wars or tribal clashes on this brutal continent. And so I thank God my ancestor survived that voyage.

[...]

Thank God my ancestor got out, because, now, I am not one of them.

In short, thank God that I am an American."
<FONT COLOR="0000ff">From: Out of America: A Black Man Confronts Africa
by Keith Richburg
Harcourt,1998</FONT>

Those are his words not mine

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I also suggest that you take the time to click on the link to the Slave Narratives above, and read them in their own words. Do they describe cruelty? You bet they do. Do they describe loving wonderful family relationships with their white owners who provided for them and cared for them as if they were their very own kin? Surprisingly, yes. Read it and listen to them yourself. I was amazed.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

I have read it, and many other like it over the years. But I am still amazed at your lack of understanding...People who are enslaved, "provided for" etc learn to love their captors. Just like we learned to love the garbage at TBS. They had no choice, Jim. Their free will to think, to believe, to live as they chose were stolen as they were from Africa. They were oten sold away from their black family and if not the threat was always there.

You use the term "white owners" like it was no big deal. I ask you to reverse the situation: white slaves, black slave owners. Tell me how you'd like that? Laws against teaching you to read, the master gets to chose who you marry, or if you are a woman you can be used for sex no matter what you personally want, you can be sold south for a minute infraction, or be whipped for no other reason than you looked at the massa's wife...

"Cared for them as if they were their own kin". I am astounded...this is not true at all. They may have been kind, but black was never white, no matter how beloved a slave was he/she was always a slave, less than human.

I don't care what history book, oral history, historical documents you site...a slave is a slave is a slave...and slavery is an evil the bible may talk about but the world has finally matured from.

I wonder if you'd call it propoganda if you were the slave.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Asked. Answered. Done.

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

Ahhhh....the "no answer answer". I remember that techinque from GGWO.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

You got an answer you weren't happy with and then you howl. The Roberta technique. Now be happy. You respect others' desire not to participate, now respect my thread here which is recommended reading and my desire is to have done with the discussion because I have said all that I want on the issue. That IS an answer.

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

Or...it could mean you don't have an answer.

Whatever.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.161.112)]

Whatever is a really cool place. We all should spend some time there. There must be some Scripture we can twist to say that. Naw...

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

*LOL* ...I really should stop using that word. All the kids in my building say it constantly and I hear them outside talking to each other...must have picked up their bad habit...*s*

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

"Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:38 pm

A short answer is this, a longer answer will have to wait..."

That was the answer. Now please go attack me in some other thread, or I'll come and be attacked on one of yours, ok?

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

"Your thread"...gotcha, fine. No "longer answer" necessary.

My rejection of your stance on the bible, slavery, and your dismissive attitude stands:

"Friday, August 06, 2004 - 01:26 pm

I have read it, and many other like it over the years. But I am still amazed at your lack of understanding...People who are enslaved, "provided for" etc learn to love their captors. Just like we learned to love the garbage at TBS. They had no choice, Jim. Their free will to think, to believe, to live as they chose were stolen as they were from Africa. They were oten sold away from their black family and if not the threat was always there.

You use the term "white owners" like it was no big deal. I ask you to reverse the situation: white slaves, black slave owners. Tell me how you'd like that? Laws against teaching you to read, the master gets to chose who you marry, or if you are a woman you can be used for sex no matter what you personally want, you can be sold south for a minute infraction, or be whipped for no other reason than you looked at the massa's wife...

"Cared for them as if they were their own kin". I am astounded...this is not true at all. They may have been kind, but black was never white, no matter how beloved a slave was he/she was always a slave, less than human.

I don't care what history book, oral history, historical documents you site...a slave is a slave is a slave...and slavery is an evil the bible may talk about but the world has finally matured from.

I wonder if you'd call it propoganda if you were the slave."

This was not, is not an attack...I simply disagree. If that is not permitted on "your thread", at least from me...so be it.

I now agree with Anon 170 who had the nerve to mention your ego.

*waving*

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

Question 21. What is <U>true faith</U>?

Answer. True faith is not only a certain knowledge, whereby I hold for truth all that God has revealed to us in his word, but also an assured confidence, which the Holy Ghost works by the gospel, in my heart; that not only the others, but to me also, remission of sin, everlasting righteousness and salvation, are freely given by God, merely of grace, only for the sake of Christ's merits.

Heidelberg Catechism with Scripture Proofs (http://www.prca.org/hc_text1.html#Q21)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an <U>evil heart of unbelief</U>, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12</FONT>


<FONT COLOR="0000ff">An unbelieving heart is always evil, even when it sounds so convincingly sincere and polite.</FONT>

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

"I believe, help thou my unbelief" fits in where in the above statement.

[Anonymous (68.82.183.197)]

Go and do something satan really doesn't want you to do today and pray instead of spending time on factnet.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

"I believe," = FAITH IN CHRIST


"help thou my unbelief" = REPENTANCE, RECOGNITION ONE HAS A WICKED, EVIL, DECEITFUL HEART! Realizing that they can do nothing except beg for the mercy of a Savior (context).

Regeneration bears twins: faith and repentance.

That's where it fits.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Question 4. What does the law of God require of us?

Answer: Christ teaches us that briefly, Matt. 22:37-40, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength. This is the first and the great commandment; and the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Question 5. Canst thou keep all these things perfectly?

Answer: In no wise; for I am prone <U>by nature</U> to hate God and my neighbour.

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

bump

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

bump

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

.

[Anonymous (141.154.144.33)]

.

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

heres some good books :
Revivals Golden Key-comfort
Worlds Greatest Preachers-comfort

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Thank you.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

"I am prone by nature to hate God and my neighbour."

Yes you are.

[Anonymous (204.156.7.47)]

Angels are really beings from another dimension. Mankind was able to see them for along time after Adam and Eve sinned but through years of degeneration the human brain stopped functioning to the level that it was then. The capacity is still there buried but only through prayer and fasting can you start to see them again. That is why so many people freak out when they see them They think they are going crazy. But really their eyes are being enlightened.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

as are you Little Mz. Pot.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

I mis JD too...why did she leave?

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

She was the kettle. LOL

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

*LOL*

[Anonymous (205.188.117.20)]

Guess that's better than being a little teapot...

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

But Jim DOES get all steamed up and then he shouts....

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

you get all steamed up and then you pout. and santa will remember because I will remind him.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

You would too, I know how you are *LOL*...but I gotta tell ya, I got one killer pout...It melts old Santa's resolve every year. (I depend on this because if I have to be good all year, well...it just ain't nevah gonna happin')

*LOL*

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

This should be about as popular here as recommending "Mein Kampf"


<FONT COLOR="0077aa">R.L.Dabney writes from Hampden Sydney, Virginia in 1867:

"To the conquerors of my native State, and perhaps to some of her sons, a large part of the following defense will appear wholly unseasonable. A discussion of a social order totally overthrown, and never to be restored here, will appear as completely out of date to them as the ribs of Noah's Ark, bleaching amidst the eternal snows of Ararat, to his posterity, when engaged in building the tower of Babel. Let me distinctly premise, that I do not dream of affecting the perverted judgments of the anti-slavery party party which now rules the hour. Of course, a set of people who make success the test of truth, as they avowedly do in this matter, and who have busily and triumphantly engaged for so many years in perfecting a plain injustice, to which they had deliberately made up their minds, are not within the reach of reasoning. Nothing but the hand of a retributive Providence can avail to reach them. The few among them who do not pass me by with silent neglect, I am well aware will content themselves with scolding; they will not venture a rational reply."</FONT>

From:
Defence of Virginia: (And Through Her, Of the South)
In Recent and Pending Contests Against the Sectional Party.
by Prof. Robert L. Dabney of Virginia, Late of the Confederate Army
Harrisonburg, VA
Sprinkle Publications, Republished 1977

Dabney was Chaplain to Gen. Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Hard Sayings of the Bible
Walter C. Kaiser, Jr, Peter H. Davids, F.F. Bruce, Manfred T. Brauch
Intervarsity Press, Downers Grove IL,
One Volume Edition 1996

<FONT COLOR="119911">"It's not always easy to read the Bible. Sometimes it is just plain hard to understand what is meant. At other times it is hard because the demands the Bible makes on us are all too clear.

Why does God command Israel to destroy other nations?

Why does the author of Ecclesiastes say there is nothing better than to eat, drink and be merry?

When Jesus told the rich young man to give away everything, does this mean we should too?

Why does Paul seem to condone slavery?

Explanations of over 500 of the toughest Bible passages, arranged verse by verse from Genesis to Revelation.

Extensive cross-referencing to help you find the answer you are looking for.

Subject and scripture indexes

12 introductory articles covering the following topics:

How do we know who wrote the Bible?

Can we believe in Bible miracles?

Why does God seem so angry in the Old Testament and so loving in the New?

Why don't Bible genealogies always match up?

Aren't many Old Testament numbers wrong?

Do the dates of the Old Testament Kings fit secular history?

Does archeology support the Bible?

When the prophets say, "The word of the Lord came to me," what do they mean?"

Are Old Testament prophecies really accurate?

Why doesn't the New Testament always quote the Old Testament accurately?

Are the New Testament accounts of demons true?

Why are there four different Gospels?

When a verse of the Bible seems to be wrapped in mystery, Hard Sayings of the Bible is the resource you need to solve the puzzle."</FONT>

From the jacket flaps.

I can not think of a single person on this board who would not benefit tremendously from owning this book.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">1. Q. Who made you?
A. God.
2. Q. What else did God make?
A. God made all things.
3. Q. Why did God make you and all things?
A. For his own glory.
4. Q. How can you glorify God?
A. By loving him and doing what he commands.</FONT>

From:
First Catechism: Teaching Children Bible Truths
Great Commission Publications
3640 Windsor Park Dr., Suwanee GA 30024
(800)695-3587
Great Commission Publications (http://www.gcp.org)

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Hard Sayings of the Bible
Walter C. Kaiser, Jr, Peter H. Davids, F.F. Bruce, Manfred T. Brauch

Impressive authors:

Kaiser is Colman M. Mockler Distinguished Professor of Old Testament and president of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Massachusetts. For many years he served as professor of Old Testament and as dean and vice president for education at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (Deerfield, Illinois). A frequent speaker at churches, camps and conferences, he has written numerous books, including Toward an Exegetical Theology, Toward an Old Testament Theology, Toward Old Testament Ethics and The Messiah in the Old Testament.

Davids is scholar in residence at the Vineyard Church in Stafford, Texas. He has taught biblical studies at such institutions as Regent College (Vancouver, British Columbia) and Canadian Theological Seminary (Regina, Saskatchewan), and he continues to teach in theological schools in Europe. He is the author of commentaries on James and 1 Peter.

Bruce (1910-1990) was Rylands Professor of Biblical Criticism and Exegesis at the University of Manchester in England. During his distinguished career, he wrote many bestselling commentaries and books, including Paul, Apostle of the Heart Set Free, A Mind for What Matters and several titles published by InterVarsity Press. He also served as general editor of The New International Commentary on the New Testament.

Brauch is professor of biblical theology and president of Eastern Baptist Theological Seminary near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Discovering Jesus in Genesis
Series: Covenant Promises For Covenant Kids
Susan Hunt &amp; Richie Hunt
Crossway, 2002
Wheaton IL

<FONT COLOR="ff6000">"We hear much today about family values. This is good, but it is not enough to turn up the volume on morality. The Bible is not simply a code of conduct. The Bible is God's revelation of himself and his promise to send a Savior. God's covenant of grace is the thread woven all through Scripture. In this covenant God promises to be our God and to dwell among us. The covenant defines and unites us as God's people. A covenantal perspective of Scripture begins with the character of God, and the values of covenant community reflect the character of God. We must help our children to learn more about who God is and what he has done for us and then pray that they will be transformed by the gospel message...When our children see Jesus in all of Scripture, then they will find others and proclaim, "It is true...He is risen"

"...send your kids on a treasure hunt with Caleb and Cassie, where they'll learn some of the important things that the Bible teaches about God's character and how they can apply Scripture to their lives. After each story are questions that will help you evaluate their comprehension and encourage additional conversations with them. You'll be assured that they're learning about God's covenant of grace, and their young hearts will find what fun the quest to know more about God can be."</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

My ABC Bible Verses: Hiding God's Word in Little Hearts
Susan Hunt, Illustrated by Yvette Banek
Crossway Books, 1998
Wheaton IL
Available in curriculum format--(800)283-1357

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">"Thy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. Ps. 119:11

Knowing the Bible can help children know God better. Here is a colorful, story filled way for even the youngest child to take God's Word to heart--and learn the alphabet, too! Presented in an easy-to-use story format that applies individual Bible verses to everyday situations, this illustrated book for 3--7 year olds is perfect for reading to your children or grandchildren, and great for use in churches, Christian schools, Bible clubs, or home schools. It can also be easily adapted for family devotions with young children. The ABCs are building blocks to your child's formal education. And these verses are the building blocks of the soul--the building blocks that can lead to eternal life."</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Big Truths for Little Kids: Teaching Your Children to Live for God
Susan Hunt &amp; Richie Hunt
Crossway Books, 1999
Wheaton IL

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">"These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. Deuteronomy 6:6-7a

Your children are a blessing from God. A gift that brings an abundance of joy and the privelege of teaching them God's ways. When they're young their potential to learn is amazing. And because these actions and beliefs go hand in hand, the lessons they learn from you now will shape their lives forever. This wonderful book, with its easy to use format, can help you teach the basic truths of the Christian faith to your children. They'll learn right along with Caleb and Cassie that God's ways are best--and that even as kids, they can live for His glory every day."</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Getting the Message: A Plan for Interpreting and Applying the Bible
Daniel M. Doriani
P&amp;R Publishing,1996
Phillipsburg NJ

<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">"Christian leaders, be prepared to interpret and apply Scriptures with facility and confidence! "Getting the Message" is for doers, those who teach biblical truth week by week. Whether you read primarily to remind yourself of familiar principles, or to organize scattered events, or to prepare for a teaching ministry, remember that exegesis is a skill, and we grow in skills by practicing them. This book's chief innovation is that it presents the steps of interpretation in the order in which students of Scripture actually use them. Let this book help you in interpreting and applying the Bible! 255 pages, softcover.

Table of Contents
Preface

1. Introduction

2. Observing What Is There

3. The Literary Context

4. The Historical Context

5. Analyzing Narratives

6. Analyzing Discourse

7. Solving Problems

8. Developing Themes

9. The Challenge of Application

10. The Practice of Application

11. Reflecting on the Point of a Text

12. Reflecting on the Redemptive Thrust of Scripture

13. Getting Started

Appendix A: A Model Lesson
Appendix B: Selecting a Text
Appendix C: Advanced Principles for Discourse Analysis
Appendix D: Applying the Genres of Scripture
Appendix E: A Basic Christian Home Reference Library
Scripture Index"</FONT>

The CAPTOR method of study and interpretation.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

Questions:

1.Is it corrct to assume that all the books you are recommending are approved reading by the PCA (Presbyterian Church in America)?
http://www.pcanet.org/

2.All teach the predestination doctrine as stated by the PCA?

3.Do any of these publications include doctrine that does not agree with the PCA?

Not inciting a riot here...just attempting to make a distinction as to where these books are "coming from" as far as denomination/doctrinal content is concerned.

Thanks.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.157.251)]

I was going to read Mein Kampf once. I just couldn't do it.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

1. No. (The PCA doesn't take upon itself to "approve" or disapprove of reading material, it does have a publishing arm, Great Commission Publications, by which one of the above is published.

2. No (some do, some don't--and the PCA does not require of its members doctrinal adherence to its standards--it only requires subscription to the Standards by the elders--and even amongst them there is a breadth of belief and understanding. You do not have to agree with the standards at all to be a member.)

3. Haven't analyzed them all that carefully yet. They all deal with different subject matter, and have different publishers. Google the publishers if you are curious as to their stands. I own a copy of Machiavelli's "The Prince," Orwell's Animal Farm, Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury, and Huxley's Brave New World--all of which I would highly recommend. I doubt that ALL of my PCA brethren would think that was a good idea, though many might.

Now, that I've answered your question, you can take your badge off and put your nightstick down. You really do need to get away from the GG mentality that all denominations Lord it over their people the way Carl Stevens does. Nobody looks over my shoulder to inspect that I'm not checking out the latest issue of Rolling Stone.

[Roberta (141.154.144.33)]

Badge and nightstick? *LOL* Hey...I'm just asking questions, here, not making any implications in any way. You needn't be so paranoid. I simply was asking if all these that you have listed came from the same doctrinal stance. How do you expect anyone to learn if they don't ask?

"You really do need to get away from the GG mentality that all denominations Lord it over their people the way Carl Stevens does."

I know they don't, Jim. I am not a child, here...but the strength with which you express your beliefs, is reminiscent, at times of that spirit, and I had the question so I asked rather than simply assumed.

Peace, my curmudgeonish brother.

[Anonymous (69.242.21.100)]

the doctrine weekly booklets get them now for 5.95$$
such titles include:
"Liguid Waves of Love"
"Out in the Back of the Woods"
"You're Fired"
"Don't Give Me No Back Talk now hear"

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Out soon! "The Doctrine of Saved by Obedience to Blitzing"

Special added bonus: "The Secret Meaning of 'My Time, My Time.'"

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

The 87th Psalm
<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">1 A Psalm of the sons of Korah. A Song. His foundation is in the holy mountains.

2 The Lord loves the gates of Zion More than all the dwellings of Jacob.

3 <U>Glorious things are spoken of you, O city of God!</U> Selah

4 "I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to those who know Me; Behold, O Philistia and Tyre, with Ethiopia: <U>'This one was born there.'</U> "

5 And of Zion it will be said, "<U>This one and that one were born in her</U>; And the Most High Himself shall establish her."

6 The Lord will record, When He registers the peoples: "<U>This one was born there</U>." Selah

7 Both the singers and the players on instruments say, "All my springs are in you."</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Glorious things of thee are spoken,
Zion, city of our God!
He, Whose Word cannot be broken,
Formed thee for His own abode.
On the Rock of Ages founded,
What can shake thy sure repose?
With salvation’s walls surrounded,
Thou may’st smile at all thy foes.

See! the streams of living waters,
Springing from eternal love;
Well supply thy sons and daughters,
And all fear of want remove:
Who can faint while such a river
Ever flows their thirst t’assuage?
Grace, which like the Lord, the Giver,
Never fails from age to age.

Round each habitation hovering,
See the cloud and fire appear!
For a glory and a cov’ring
Showing that the Lord is near.
Thus deriving from our banner
Light by night and shade by day;
Safe they feed upon the manna
Which He gives them when they pray.

Blest inhabitants of Zion,
Washed in the Redeemer’s blood!
Jesus, Whom their souls rely on,
Makes them kings and priests to God.
’Tis His love His people raises,
Over self to reign as kings,
And as priests, His solemn praises
Each for a thank offering brings.

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Savior, if of Zion’s city,
I through grace a member am,
Let the world deride or pity,
I will glory in Thy Name.
Fading is the worldling’s pleasure,
All his boasted pomp and show;
Solid joys and lasting treasure
None but Zion’s children know.</FONT>

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">“…by the faith of the gospel Christ becomes ours, and we are made partakers of the salvation and eternal blessedness procured by him. But as our ignorance and sloth (I may add, the vanity of our mind) stand in need of external helps, by which faith may be begotten in us, and may increase and make progress until its consummation, God, in accommodation to our infirmity, has added such helps, and secured the effectual preaching of the gospel, by depositing this treasure with the Church. He has appointed pastors and teachers, by whose lips he might edify his people (Eph. 4:11); he has invested them with authority, and, in short, <U>omitted nothing that might conduce to holy consent in the faith, and to right order</U>. In particular, he has instituted sacraments, which we feel by experience to be most useful helps in fostering and confirming our faith. For seeing we are shut up in the prison of the body, and have not yet attained to the rank of angels, God, in accommodation to our capacity, <U>has in his admirable providence provided a method by which, though widely separated, we might still draw near to him</U>.


But as it is now our purpose to discourse of the visible Church, let us learn, from her single title of Mother, how useful, nay, <U><FONT COLOR="ff0000">how necessary the knowledge of her is, since there is no other means of entering into life unless she conceive us in the womb and give us birth, unless she nourish us at her breasts, and, in short, keep us under her charge and government, until, divested of mortal flesh, we become like the angels</FONT></U> (Mt. 22:30). For our weakness does not permit us to leave the school until we have spent our whole lives as scholars. Moreover, <U><FONT COLOR="ff0000">beyond the pale of the Church no forgiveness of sins, no salvation, can be hoped for</FONT></U>, as Isaiah and Joel testify (Isa. 37:32; Joel 2:32). To their testimony Ezekiel subscribes, when he declares, "They shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel" (Ezek. 3:9); as, on the other hand, those who turn to the cultivation of true piety are said to inscribe their names among the citizens of Jerusalem. For which reason it is said in the psalm, "Remember me, O Lord, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation; that I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance" (Ps. 106:4, 5). <U><FONT COLOR="ff0000">By these words the paternal favour of God and the special evidence of spiritual life are confined to his peculiar people, and hence the abandonment of the Church is always fatal.”</FONT></U></FONT>

John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 4

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

Ummmm...so. Saved by grace, not of works, but unless you go to church " no forgiveness of sins, no salvation, can be hoped for"?

Yup...Calvin needed a good butt kicking.

*s*

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

"God puts Christ's authority in the church. It's his way of ordering the chaos of a roomful of sinners." Anonymous

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

You wouldn't know there was such a thing as grace if the church wasn't commissioned to preach it. So pull your head out.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Ummm. That's Romans 10:14-18.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

I spent many years in church, Jim, until I could no longer go...pull your own head out.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

It is NOT about ability, It IS about ATTITUDE. COULD no longer go and NOT WANTING TO BE A PART are two different things. One does not just "GO" to church--one IS a part of the Church. It is about desire not about being shut in. I am sure there are plenty of shut ins who long for the fellowship of the Church but who CAN NOT ATTEND. It is the responsibility of the Church to reach out to them in whatever way it can--even if by phone, letter, email, talking through the window.

I remember visiting a guy in prison for murder who could only visit with me through a glass window by speaking on a phone. We studied the scriptures through the glass and on that phone--week after week. We both looked forward to the fellowship and study. We both WANTED to be there.

And neither I nor Calvin said it was by GOING to church that we are saved--it is however through her ministry that we hear the gospel and to whom we are called to fellowship. GOING to church doesn't save ANYBODY!

"A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.

"...and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house. And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household. And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.

[rj (141.154.144.33)]

I understand you perfectly, Jim. Truly, I do. I have attempted fellowship with the local churches for 10 years and none have anything for me that is unlike what TBS had. They range from Catholic to Congregationalist and all spots in between. I cannot find felloship with even the most liberal, with whom I supposed I might.

I guess it must just be me...stubborn, hateful me.

Willing? You have no idea. I won't recount the numerous disappointments or the years I have questioned myself about why it leaves me unhappy to find no fellowship.

I won't bare my heartbreak over TBS and the years of loneliness for church I have experienced. I am not sure I trust you not to call me a liar. There is not one pastor, other than the local GGWO flunkie that I haven't spoken to over the years since I left GGWO and could not breathe well enough to travel out...

Willing? There are people I don't want here, that much is true. But I have never not been "willing". Damn you for making me cry.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

I am not a heartreader. I am not here to call you a liar. You have made your own stand fairly clear on these threads. If they are not reaching out to you, then shame on them. Loads of churches minister to all kinds of shut ins. That is what THEY should be doing.

I am happy to research for somebody in your area EVEN WHO DOES NOT SHARE MY EMPHASIS AND WHO MAY COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH ME ON DOCTRINE who would be willing to attempt to help. How far are you from Lanesboro?

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

I no longer want the right wing Christians in my area "reaching out"...been there, done that. I don't agree with their methods, I don't agree with their lack of compassion, I don't agree with their finacial greed, their doctrinal arrogance, their "we are the only ones going to heaven you heathen" attitude.

They don't come in peace and comfort, offering fellowship in a relaxed manner, and have not shown once ounce of real care about me as a person...they come with an agenda, and they don't bring a witness of Christ with them. How do I know?...BECAUSE THEY HAVE ALL BEEN HERE. The ONLY person to cross my threshold with no guilt to peddle was the Catholic priest from St Anne's!

Say whaever you want. Think whatever you want, believe about me whatever the hell you want...but don't tell me what is best for me. I won't go through more heartbreak looking for God in churches where He is used to control people via guilt and submission and cash. I need more than that. I am going to die sooner than most of you. I need the real deal.

You can't respect that, I know. But don't say I wasn't willing, because you can't know what it is like to want something you can't have, something you miss, something that ought to be easy to find. But it is a pretty poor commentary when one can't find Christians with an ounce of respect for someone's relationship God. I know my life isn't like yours. It used to be. I loved TBS, I loved Carl, I loved it all and was totally a mess when I found it was a lie. You all think I am a bitch because I don't go to a church...that is just about the most ridiculous thing I have heard...I need to be fed, but not with the garbage found where I am. So, I guess you'd better just continue to apologise for "affiliating" with me, Jim and anyone else who wants to...You don't care that it hurts, you don't seem to care that your judgements of me are wrong and cause me distress...in short, I don't get Christ from you any more than I did the people who tried to force their form of christianity on me.

Go on...blast me. It takes an awful lot to make me cry but you managed it. Time to accuse me of whining, fussing, being a baby. That's your style of Christian love and compassion? Keep it.

[Bob Brinton (151.203.153.238)]

Hey Roberta, I don't know the priest from St. Anne's, but I like the priest from St. Mary's in Lee, so maybe St. Anne's is okay too. A lot of what you've posted on here has shown that you want to help those who hurt. I appreciate what you bring to the table. I don't set myself up as your judge.

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

I know you don't judge me Bob, and you've got no idea how much that blesses me. Thank you.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

You have mail. They're not "right wing fundies" or guilt peddlers and neither am I. I never said or implied half the stuff you're accusing me of. I just explained that I understand the difference between going and wanting fellowship. Churches are rooms full of sinners. That's reality. Anyone one you choose is going to have them there. Best place for the ill is at the doctors. That is what church is for sinners. The hungry begging for bread, and others showing them where to find it. Sorry you feel the way you do. You want to see this as condemning? You'll be reading into it.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Had to put this in here sooner or later.

The Five Points Of Calvinism
Defined, Defended and Documented
Second Edition
David N. Steele, Curtis C. Thomas, S. Lance Quinn
P&amp;R 2004
Phillipsburg NJ


<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">Updated edition of classic introduction to the essential tenets of Calvinistic theology: its history and content, a biblical defense, and a guide to further study. Includes a forward by Roger Nicole and an afterword by John F. MacArthur.


“Simply put, The Five Points of Calvinism is the best and the most complete short introduction to the doctrines of grace.”
—Philip G. Ryken

“One could hardly wish for a better study resource to show the five points’ faithfulness to Scripture. This disciplined display of the heart of the gospel calls for three of the loudest cheers we can give.”
—J. I. Packer

“Truly a classic—clear, concise and warm in its presentation of historic Reformed theology. This latest edition is even better than the original.”
—R. C. Sproul

"Next to the doctrine of salvation, the sovereignty of God has, to me, been the most powerfully comforting truth..."
Joni Eareckson Tada

David N. Steele (deceased) was co-author, with Curtis Thomas, of Romans: An Interpretive Outline. Curtis C. Thomas is retired after forty-four years in the pastorate and is author of Practical Wisdom for Pastors: Words of Counsel and Encouragement for a Lifetime of Ministry. S. Lance Quinn is pastor/teacher of The Bible Church of Little Rock, having previously served at Grace Community Church as senior associate and personal assistant to John F. MacArthur.</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

From the webpage of New Heart Presbyterian Church in Allison Park, PA (I did not know about all of these people, and not that it makes a blind bit of difference other than filling up that space in your head called fun stuff to know):

<FONT COLOR="ff6000">What do these people have in common?

R. C. Sproul (theologian/educator)
D. James Kennedy
(pastor/evangelist)
Joni Erickson Tada
(mercy advocate/author)
Steve Green (musician)
Michael Card (musician)
Amy Grant (musician)
Jenni Till (musician)
Steve Brown (radio host/author)
Kay James (Christian social activist/educator)
Joel Belz (editor)
Marvin O'lasky (editor)
Dr. C. Evert Koop
(Former U.S. Surgeon General)

They are all members of the Presbyterian Church in America; one of the fastest growing evangelical and reformed churches in North America.</FONT>

[RJ (141.154.144.33)]

Sounds like a commercial

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

New Heart Presbyterian Church (http://www.newheartpca.org/)

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

.

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

At our church this morning's sermon was "Finding Our Place in the Church" the text being taken from Acts 16:1-12:
"1 Then he came to Derbe and Lystra. And behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a certain Jewish woman who believed, but his father was Greek. 2 He was well spoken of by the brethren who were at Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted to have him go on with him. And he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews who were in that region, for they all knew that his father was Greek. 4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered to them the decrees to keep, which were determined by the apostles and elders at Jerusalem. 5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and increased in number daily.

6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. 7 After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit F75 did not permit them. 8 So passing by Mysia, they came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night. A man of Macedonia stood and pleaded with him, saying, "Come over to Macedonia and help us." 10 Now after he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the gospel to them. 11 Therefore, sailing from Troas, we ran a straight course to Samothrace, and the next day came to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is the foremost city of that part of Macedonia, a colony. And we were staying in that city for some days."

The main point brought out is that there is not a conflict between "either" the leading of the Holy Spirit "or" the institution of the Church, but rather we are provided both together. That sermon should be available soon online and I will post it here with a direct link.

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

We also sang this hymn to a new tune. It made me think of the brethren coming out of and still within GG and what God desires for them.


<FONT COLOR="0000ff">1. The church's one foundation
is Jesus Christ her Lord;
she is his new creation
by water and the Word.
From heaven he came and sought her
to be his holy bride;
with his own blood he bought her,
and for her life he died.

2. Elect from every nation,
yet one o'er all the earth;
her charter of salvation,
one Lord, one faith, one birth;
one holy name she blesses,
partakes one holy food,
and to one hope she presses,
with every grace endued.

3. <FONT COLOR="ff0000">Though with a scornful wonder
we see her sore oppressed,
by schisms rent asunder,
by heresies distressed,
yet saints their watch are keeping;
their cry goes up, "How long?"
And soon the night of weeping
shall be the morn of song.</FONT>

4. Mid toil and tribulation,
and tumult of her war,
she waits the consummation
of peace forevermore;
till, with the vision glorious,
her longing eyes are blest,
and the great church victorious
shall be the church at rest.

5. <U>Yet she on earth hath union
with God the Three in One,
and mystic sweet communion
with those whose rest is won.
O happy ones and holy!
Lord, give us grace that we
like them, the meek and lowly,
on high may dwell with thee.</U></FONT>

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

The Reformed Pastor (first published 1656)
Richard Baxter
Puritan Paperbacks
Banner of Truth Trust, 1999
Carlisle PA

<FONT COLOR="119911">"Reformed" here refers to a change in habit rather than one's theology. You can buy the paperback or read the whole thing on line here:</FONT>

The Reformed Pastor (http://www.reformed.org/books/baxter/reformed_pastor/)

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Here is an excerpt that should interest ANYONE who's ever been to TBS or GG</FONT>:

<FONT COLOR="0077aa">"The nature of our office requireth us to ‘take heed to the flock.’ What else are we overseers for "Bishop" is a title which intimates more of’ labor than of honor,’ says Polydore Virgil.’ To be a bishop, or pastor, is not to be set up as an idol for the people to bow to, or as idle ‘slow bellies,’ to live to our fleshly delight and ease; but it is to be the guide of sinners to heaven. It is a sad case that men should be of a calling of which they know not the nature, and undertake they know not what. Do these men consider what they have undertaken, that live in ease and pleasure, and have time to take their superfluous recreations and to spend an hour and more at once, in loitering, or in vain discourse, when so much work doth lie upon their hands? Brethren, do you consider what you have taken upon you? Why, you have undertaken the conduct, under Christ, of a band of his soldiers ‘against principalities and powers, and spiritual wickedness in high places.’ You must lead them on to the sharpest conflicts; you must acquaint them with the enemies’ stratagems and assaults; you must watch yourselves, and keep them watching. If you miscarry, they and you may perish. You have a subtle enemy, and therefore you must be wise."</FONT>

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

Marriage Savers (http://www.marriagesavers.org/)

This is the ministry of Mike and Harriett McManus. Mike's book, Marriage Savers has been a great help to me and my wife.

Marriage Savers
Michael J. McManus
Zondervan Publishing, 1993
Grand Rapids MI

<FONT COLOR="119911">"This book shows how ordinary people from a variety of typical American churches have significantly reduced the divorce rates in their communities. This revised edition features two new chapters, an index, and a re-designed interior. It identifies reasons marriages fail and suggests ways a person can help a friend or family member strengthen their marriage."
Ingram

From the Back Cover
Michael McManus's popular Marriage Savers is filled with concrete, biblical advice for those serious about saving marriage. New material in this revised, expanded edition includes: - Three ways churches can help the separated to reconcile - Three strategies to help the divorced heal their wounds - A proven way to reduce the divorce rate in stepfamilies - Evidence that "the greatest untapped resource to save marriages" is a couple with a strong marriage willing to mentor others - The means to jump-start a dozen "marriage saver" reforms in many churches in a metro area at one time Marriage Savers is the definitive book on how to build a lifelong marriage. Any church adopting a single reform pioneered by one church could push its own divorce rate below 10 percent. Learn about a premarital inventory that can predict with 86 percent accuracy which engaged couples are most likely to have a marriage that will end in divorce. Read about Marriage Encounter, which prompts nearly nine out of ten married couples to fall back in love.


About the Author
Michael McManus writes a syndicated newspaper column, "Ethics and Religion," and co-directs marriage preparation with his wife, Harriet, at Fourth Presbyterian Church in Bethesda, Maryland.</FONT>

[Anonymous (209.6.151.215)]

Listened to the broadcast on the Convenant on White Horse Inn. Very good.
Tell me a little about Rod Rosenblatt is he really in witness protection? That is a joke right?
Anyway one of the many points they made that I wanted to share which I thought was excellent was this: There will be two ways to appear before God.
1. Robed in our own self rightgeousnes which equals condemnation
2. Robed in Christ which equals justification.

I think that is so beautiful. Iz

[JF (66.90.181.249)]

They were joking about Rod, Iz, they razz him a lot.

Thank God for the second way!

[j f (66.90.181.249)]

.

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">"There is one thing a professor can be absolutely certain of: almost every student entering the university believes, or says he believes, that truth is relative. If this belief is put to the test, one can count on the students' reaction: they will be uncomprehending. That anyone should regard the proposition as not self-evident astonishes them, as though he were calling into question 2+2=4. These are things you don’t think about. The students’ backgrounds are as various as America can provide…They are unified only in their relativism and allegiance to equality. And the two are related in moral intention. The relativity of truth is not a theoretical insight but a moral postulate, the condition of a free society, or so they see it…The danger they have been taught to fear from absolutism is not error but intolerance. Relativism is necessary to openness; and this is the virtue, the only virtue, which all primary education for more than fifty years has dedicated itself to inculcating. Openness—and the relativism that makes it the only plausible stance in the face of various claims to truth and various ways of life and kinds of human beings—is the great insight of our times. The true believer is the real danger. The study of history and culture teaches that all the world was mad in the past; men always thought they were right, and that led to wars, persecutions, slavery, xenophobia, racism and chauvinism. <FONT COLOR="ff0000">The point is not to correct the mistakes and really be right; rather it is not to think you are right at all."</FONT></FONT>

From:
"The Closing of the American Mind: How Higher Education Has Failed Democracy and Impoverished the Souls of Today's Students"
Allan Bloom
Simon and Schuster, 1987
NYC,NY

<FONT COLOR="119911">More true today on FactNet amongst the dissidents and critics than ever.</FONT>

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

.

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

HYMN (http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/l/i/lifthigh.htm)

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

<FONT COLOR="119911">“Willful spiritual obtuseness and the displacement of Scripture by ‘tradition’ (mere ‘precepts of men’) were the twin evils which made that Word of none effect (Mt.15:1-9; Mk.7:1-13).

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Matthew 15:1-9 (ESV)
Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, [2] "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat." [3] He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? [4] For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Who ever reviles father or mother must surely die.' [5] But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, [6] he need not honor his father.' So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. [7] You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
[8] " 'This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
[9] in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "

Mark 7:1-13 (ESV)
Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, [2] they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. [3] (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands, holding to the tradition of the elders, [4] and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.) [5] And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, "Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?" [6] And he said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
" 'This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
[7] in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'
[8] You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men."
[9] And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! [10] For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' [11] But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban' (that is, given to God)— [12] then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, [13] thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."</FONT>


Compare John 5:39-47, where the Jews who did not believe, who would not come to Jesus for life, who had not the love of God in them, are shown to have searched the Scriptures in vain.” They had set their hope on Moses, but Moses himself proved to be their accuser. They did not really in their hearts believe him—hence their unbelief towards Jesus. ‘For’, he said, ‘he wrote of me. But if you do not believe his, writings, how will you believe my words?’ Faith, love and a right attitude of will are the key to an understanding of Moses and of Christ.”</FONT>

Thus argues John Wenham in his book:
“Christ and the Bible”
Baker Books, Baker Book House, 1994
Grand Rapids, MI

<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">From the back jacket:
“Defense of the Bible begins with rational proofs for the historicity and accuracy of its documents. “Christ and the Bible” places the argument for the authority of Scripture squarely on Jesus.

With uncluttered logic and straightforward prose Wenham marshals Gospel evidence to show Jesus’ own view of Scripture—that it is:

1) Historically accurate
2) Authoritative
3) The standard for ethics
4) And the verbally inspired revelation of God.

He then considers why we should listen to Jesus when he makes such claims and why “Christ’s view should be the Christian view.” The study substantiates Jesus’ reliability and influence on all New Testament writers.

Finally, Wenham considers two related problems: first, which writings really belong in the Bible; second, the reliability of the text now available. The presentation is easy to read and understand…”</FONT>

[jf (66.90.181.249)]

SOLA FIDE By J. I. Packer (http://www.the-highway.com/Justification_Packer.html)

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Science and Faith: Friends or Foes?
C. John Collins
Copyright © 2003 by C. John Collins
Published by Crossway Books
a division of Good News Publishers
1300 Crescent Street
Wheaton, Illinois 60187

Contents
Contents 5
Acknowledgments 9
1. Introduction to the Questions and Survey of the Book 11
Section I. Philosophical Issues
2. Science, Faith, and Rationality: A Short Course in Good Thinking 19
3. Must Science and Faith Be At Odds? 29
Section II. Theological Issues
4. This Is My Father's World: The Biblical Doctrine of Creation 59
5. What Kind of Days Were Those, Anyhow? 77
6. Other Biblical Passages About Creation 97
7. Is the Earth Young or Old? Biblical Arguments 105
8. What a Piece of Work Is Man! Human Nature as It Was Created 111
9. The Glorious Ruin: Human Nature After the Fall 135
10. How "Fallen" Is Nature? 147
11. How Does God Rule the World? The Biblical Doctrine of Providence 161
12. God Reveals Himself in His World: Science, Faith, and Apologetics 181
13. Caring for God's World: The Biblical View of the Environment 203
Section III. Science and Faith Interact
14. Science, Providence, and Miracle 215
15. How Old Is the Earth? Cosmology and Geology 229
16. Where Do Animals Come From? Biological Evolution and Darwinism 255
17. Is Intelligent Design a Dumb Idea? Answers to Objections 285
18. Science and the Argument from Design 301
19. The Human and Social Sciences 317
Section IV. Conclusion
20. Culture Wars and Warriors: Faith, Science, and the Public Square 331
21. Life in a Created World 339
Appendices
A. Notes and Comments on the Chapters 351
B. Other Resources 419
C. Thomas Kuhn and Paradigms: A Review Essay 421
General Index 434
Scripture Index 442


Many believers worry that science conflicts with Christian faith. C. John Collins believes that Christians should study the natural world and that God's truth will stand against any challenge. Collins investigates specific topics of "conflict" between faith and science, including the age of the earth and evolution. Written for parents concerned about their children's studies, for students feeling their faith challenged by scientific inquiry, and for anyone interested in the interplay between science and faith, this book provides accessible and comprehensive answers.

Many believers worry that science undermines the Christian faith. Instead of fearing scientific discovery, Jack Collins believes that Christians should delight in the natural world and study it. God’s truth will stand against any challenge and will enrich the very scientific studies that we fear.

Collins first defines faith and science, shows their relation, and explains what claims each has concerning truth. Then he applies the biblical teaching on creation to the topics of “conflict” between faith and science, including the age of the earth, evolution, and miracles. He considers what it means to live in a created world. This book is for anyone looking for a Christian engagement with science without technical jargon.

Collins maps the entire interface between faithful biblical interpretation and questions of all sorts posed in the name of the sciences. Interesting, fair-minded, shrewd, and clear from start to finish, this will prove outstanding as a pastoral resource.
— J. I. Packer
Professor of Theology, Regent College

There is something here for just about everyone. Science and Faith is required reading for all who are interested in the relationship between science and the Christian faith.
— J. P. Moreland
Distinguished Professor of Philosophy, Talbot School of Theology, Biola University

This is a highly significant book on possibly the most important subject confronting the church today—the neutrality of science. A delightful style makes it easily accessible yet the author never neglects important issues. It is the best book of its kind for decades.
— Ranald Macaulay
L’Abri Fellowship

Jack Collins is my kind of guy—a fellow MIT nerd. But he is much more: a brilliant scholar of biblical languages and a keen observer of the interaction between science and the Christian faith. This is a wonderful book, and I recommend it most strongly.
— Henry F. Schaefer III
Professor of Chemistry and Director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry, University of Georgia

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Read excerpts from the above book here:
http://www.gnpcb.org/assets/products/excerpts/1581344309.2.pdf

SCIENCE
&amp; FAITH
FRIENDS OR FOES?

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

I arise today through a mighty strength, the invocation of the
Trinity, through belief in the Threeness, through confession
of the Oneness of the Creator of creation.

I arise today through the strength of Christ with His Baptism,
through the strength of His Crucifixion with His Burial
through the strength of His Resurrection with His Ascension,
through the strength of His descent for the Judgment of Doom.

I arise today through the strength of the love of Cherubim
in obedience of Angels, in the service of the Archangels,
in hope of resurrection to meet with reward,
in prayers of Patriarchs, in predictions of Prophets,
in preachings of Apostles, in faiths of Confessors,
in innocence of Holy Virgins, in deeds of righteous men.

I arise today, through the strength of Heaven:
light of Sun, brilliance of Moon, splendour of Fire,
speed of Lightning, swiftness of Wind, depth of Sea,
stability of Earth, firmness of Rock.

I arise today, through God's strength to pilot me:
God's might to uphold me, God's wisdom to guide me,
God's eye to look before me, God's ear to hear me,
God's word to speak for me, God's hand to guard me,
God's way to lie before me, God's shield to protect me,
God's host to secure me:
against snares of devils, against temptations of vices,
against inclinations of nature, against everyone who
shall wish me ill, afar and anear, alone and in a crowd.
I summon today all these powers between me (and these evils):
against every cruel and merciless power that may oppose
my body and my soul,
against incantations of false prophets,
against black laws of heathenry,
against false laws of heretics, against craft of idolatry,
against spells of witches and smiths and wizards,
against every knowledge that endangers man's body and soul.
Christ to protect me today
against poison, against burning, against drowning,
against wounding, so that there may come abundance of reward.

Christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me, Christ in me,
Christ beneath me, Christ above me, Christ on my right,
Christ on my left, Christ in breadth, Christ in length,
Christ in height, Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of every man who speaks of me,
Christ in every eye that sees me, Christ in every ear that hears me.

I arise today through a mighty strength, the invocation of the
Trinity, through belief in the Threeness, through confession of the
Oneness of the Creator of creation.
Salvation is of the Lord. Salvation is of the Lord.
Salvation is of Christ. May Thy Salvation, O Lord, be ever with us.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

There really is a lot of good stuff to read on here. Bumped for newcomers. Feel free to add suggestions.

[leegriffith (leegriffith)]

Here is one: "The Reign of the Servant Kings - A Study of Eternal Security and the Final Significance of Man" by Joseph C. Dillow, available through the Grace Evangelical Society. This book SOUNDLY and SCRIPTURALLY destroys all five points of Calvinism.

[ralphwells (ralphwells)]

Hmmm, sounds a bit antagonistic to me.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lol.gif

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Well, Lee, thanks for your suggestion. Although to me (as would appear obvious) both the book and the suggestion seem rather oxymoronic.

I will happily engage your arguments at:

somebonus@yahoo.com

[leegriffith (leegriffith)]

Jim, what seems oxymoronic, or contradictory, to me is to recognize the principle of justification by faith alone and the truth of eternal security, but then to look for confirmation of salvation by works in personal experience – something one is forced to do if he holds to the reformed doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. I just read an article by a famous Calvinist who said that he underwent a horrific, terrifying experience in which he had doubts as to whether he was really one of God’s elect. He vividly described his terror at the thought that he might not be, and wrote in quite some detail about his tearful, prayerful struggle with God. He was finally "released" by the conclusion God supposedly brought him to: that because, though sinful as he was, HE WAS STILL HANGING IN THERE WITH GOD, this affirmed his election! He came across appearing so humble, so fervent. He then suggested that if we all don’t have occasional experiences like this, our salvation may not be genuine! Frankly, it made me want to lean over and puke. God would not have us live this way. Arminianism causes the believer to fear he will lose his salvation. Calvinism causes the believer to fear he may not really have been saved. Both theological systems are deeply rooted in our religious culture and have affected us very deeply, unconsciously as well as consciously. This has even caused most of us to misread entire epistles, like 1 John. But the thing most believers don't realize is that you don’t have to choose either of these systems. You can choose to let the testimony of God’s Word speak for itself (1 John 5:10-13).

In His Love and Grace,
Lee

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

When we read the Puritans, or writing of adherents to any position it is always a good idea to compare what they write with scripture--this is even so of Calvin himself--I am sure we agree here. Like I said before, I am happy to take up the issue with you by email--I have been round the houses on these issues on other threads with many others. This is a thread which recommends articles, books, etc. You have made a recommendation. What is oxymoronic is a sound and scriptural destruction of where many start with Reformed doctrine--the five points--which are themselves sound and scriptural answers to a previously presented five points. If you want to continue the discussion--I am available as I said:

somebonus@yahoo.com

Yes, Regis, that is my final answer.

(Message edited by Jim Faucett on April 20, 2005)

[dave_drago (dave_drago)]

I highly recommend Larkin's "Dispensational Truth" if you like to derive your theology from cartoons. How's that for bombast!

For Him,
Dave

[leegriffith (leegriffith)]

Or, if you like fiction, "The Gospel According to Jesus" by John F. McArthur.

[jim_faucett (jim_faucett)]

Or for really great fiction:

Anything thing ever written by Zane Hodges.

[cordell (cordell)]

This and the previous reading list are worth bumping and revisiting--what with all the boredom here on FN...

[maria_t (maria_t)]

I have a few suggestions for people on here:

If you are looking to check into Early Christian church teachings, Frank Viola has written a series of books on this topic. His website is
http://www.ptmin.org.

"Rethinking the Wineskin, The Practice of the New Testament Church,"

"Straight Talk to the Elders,"

"Knowing Christ Together"

"Who is your Covering, a fresh look at Leadership, Authority and Accountability"
(this one would give CHS nightmares!!)

****

Some other good books to peruse:

RT Kendall -- God meant it for Good (the story of Joseph and his imprisionment)

RT Kendall -- The Annointing, Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow

RT Kendall -- Total Forgiveness

RT Kendall -- The Thorn in the Flesh

and these in particular concentrate on Healing:

Andres Murray -- Divine Healing

John G. Lake -- His Life, His Sermons, His Boldness of Faith

F.F. Bosworth -- Christ the Healer

Gene Edwards -- A Tale of Three Kings

*****

I'm not posting this for doctrinal debates.
I'm posting them because I've read most of them, and, God has used them not only to minister to me personally, but to a number of GGWO exitee's over the last 2 years.

Maria

[hms_surprise (hms_surprise)]

Simone Weil - Gravity and Grace &amp; Waiting for God

Annonymous - The Cloud of Unknowing

Walker Percy - The Second Coming, Love in the Ruins, Message in a Bottle, etc. etc.

Flannery O'Connor - Wise Blood, The Violent Bear it Away, A Good Man is Hard to Find, etc. etc.

Iris Murdoch - The Unicorn, The Sea,The Sea

Diogenes Allen - The Path of Perfect Love, Philosophy for Understanding Theology, The Full Assurance of Faith, etc. etc.

Thomas Moore - The Care of the Soul

[ariel (ariel)]

Boss Martian,

Thanks for the condensed version of the story, however I read the longer account you linked to last week.
It reminded me of the number of schemes we've seen at greater grace: ie. precious metals/coins, water filters,vitamins with buddy allen, barley green, etc,

[maria_t (maria_t)]

Thanks for the book suggestion, Boss!!

What a coincidence in regards to the lies, greed...lol and the "eventual bust." I can't wait for the local "bust" to come...you know where!!

Maria

[mikko (mikko)]

i recommend this book: The Way Of The Master -by Ray Comfort.

[gone_to_pa (gone_to_pa)]

Mr Austin Sparks has a very loaded library of books and articles which can be downloaded or printed freely. One very interresting book is the Holy Spirits Biography of Jesus Christ. Go to <font color="ff0000">austinsparks.net</font> and I too agree very much so with Maria, that Frank Viola has some very interesting and truthful books on how the New Testament Church was and should be.

[offshore (offshore)]

"Toxic Faith"
Understanding and overcoming religious addiction"
Stephen Arterburn and Jack Felton

"Toxic Faith distinguishes between a healthy faith and a misguided religiosity that traps believers in an addictive practice of religion. It shows how unbalanced ministries, misguided churches, and unscrupulous leaders can lead their followers away from God and into a desolate experience of religion that drives many to despair. Toxic Faith shows readers how to find hope for a return to genuine, healthy faith that can add meaning to life."

[anova (anova)]

The only part of Toxic Faith she has read is the inner liner.

[offshore (offshore)]

"How to Save Your Marriage in One Easy Lesson"


Anovus....Read it.

[bjerwin (bjerwin)]

LOLOL... can't wait to see you two!!!!

[mikko (mikko)]

im planning to buy this book -> Why Churches Die -by mac brunson &amp; ergun caner.

[calv (calv)]

"Changes That Heal"

how to understand your past
to ensure a healther future

Dr, Henry Cloud


(i call it "changes like hell!")

[maria_t (maria_t)]

thanks Calvin...I've read that book, and its great.

GonetoPA thanks for the kind words. We now go to a home church comprised of former GGWO'ers who are sick to death of "organized Christianity." One of them introduced us to Frank Viola's book, Rethinking the Wineskin. Last night I read his book on "Coverings."
Whoa was that a trip. Scripturally proving the office of "pastor" doesn't even exist in the New Testament.
How those that are spiritually mature lead/guide but its not a dictatorship like things were before. We have amazing fellowshp around the Holy Spirit and His forming the life of Christ within us. I can't even put it in words what has transpired in us over the last month that we started meeting.

What part of PA are you in?

Perhaps sometime you would like to come out for one of the meetings. I can explain more by email...write me if you'd like. Gracekid2@aol.com

Maria

[itsahokes (itsahokes)]

"Oh, The Places You'll Go" - by Dr. Seuss
"It's My F**king Birthday" - forgot the author (very funny, only females would enjoy)
"Finding God in Unexpected Places" - Philip Yancey
"Soul Survivor" - Philip Yancey (each chapter introduces you to many other authors you'd love to read)
"Testimonies" - by Patrick O'Brien (not Christian testimonies about getting saved)

[cordell]

Here was our first--if I remember correctly--introduction to Lee Griffith. There is much good reading suggested above. The Dillow book is hilarious. As to some of the other books suggested--caveat emptor. (I really do like the Dr. Seuss book and recommend it highly for those not prone to the other stuff)

[cordell]

Some of the old beakers, if I am not mistaken, have linked up with this "Grace Evangelical Society" which is nothing of the first two and probably settles for the third alone.