Useless TBSGGWO messages

[sidethorn]

We all remember them. Certain messages during services or raps at TBS/GGWO we heard that we're so useless, or so boring that we couldn't wait for them to be over. Such 'useful' subjects like pastoral authority, attending EVERY service come to mind. There's got to be some real 'favorites' out there. Lets get some discussion going here on those 'favorite' sermons we all got so much out of.

Here's my 'favorite'. My former GGWO pastor-teacher spent about 45 minutes preaching a 'message' on the importance of concentrating when the Word of God is being preached (from a GGWO pulpit with Carl's spin on everything). Nothing really was said about the Bible or Christianity. Just a whole bunch of psychobabble on concentrating when pastor is blabbing away on the same thing. I sure 'concentrated' during his 'message'. I actually slept through almost half of it!!!! Some concentrating!!! A friend next to me who managed to stay awake somehow told me about all the 20+ minutes I missed out on which was virtually nothing! Just more babbling on the same old thing I heard before nodding off. I woke up so very well rested and that rest ended being my edification from this so very useful message. LOL.

Anyway, here's your chance to list your 'favorite' most useless messages you endured hearing or just slept through.

[sidethorn]

And there are those other messages we thought we're so useful and life changing at the time we heard them only to find out it was a bunch of man made false teaching and truly useless in the end. Here's a chance to list those ones too.

[j_graz]

This message was considered one of the greatest messages ever preached by Carl Stevens. Students were required by instructors to memorize it, phrase by phrase!

I began looking at this a few weeks back thinking that a great way to continue clearing out the cob webs was to examine some of the ‘hallmark’ messages. This one is transcribed in ‘Hallmarks from the Heart’ Vol 2.

There is a need to (in the construction world) ‘do a tare off’ of the faulty building materials - ‘wood, hay and stubble’ that were added to the foundation over the years. (1 Corinthians 3:10-14)

Throne Words

Stevens begins with a quote from Revelation 12:9 on page 121.

“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil” – and God called him “old” and He called him “serpent”. God doesn’t mind calling the devil and his crowd names. A lot of people get so shocked when God’s people get a little rough with the devil. They are scared of a few words that the Bible speaks so clearly, as in Hebrews 12:8 and Matthew 23. But God isn’t. He has the words that best fit the situation. He calls them right words, as long as they are honest and well-place and well-directed.”

We immediately see a scripture verse and the subsequent rationale being used to justify the ‘divine name calling’ of Satan and whoever they may be who are part of his “crowd”.
He then claims that people are shocked that God would ‘name call’.
Then he proceeds to build from this premise, the basis for this message ‘Throne Words’ - God’s powerful and precise choice of words - as read from the KJV (old English)!

This is important to discuss because the issue of marking and dealing with the ministry’s “enemies” was born out of these teachings, during the years messages like TW were being preached.

Here’s the phrase he’s talking about: ho ophis ho archaios – translated by the KJV as ‘that old serpent’; the NAS translates it ‘the serpent of old’; the NRS - ‘the ancient serpent’ and the NKJ - ‘that serpent of old’.

The classical usage of archaios is “from the beginning” or “original”.
The word occurs 12 times in the NT as a reference to the past, both ancient (Matt 5:21,33; Luke 9:8,19; Acts 15:21) and more immediate (Acts 15:7). The sense of “original” may be intended in Acts 15:7 and describes Mnason (Acts 21:16) as an original disciple. In addition, the “old” (archaios) that has “passed away” after a person in “in Christ” is contrasted with the new (kainos) creation he or she has become (2 Cor 5:17).

The designation of “ancient serpent” (from the beginning) is a reference to the devil, the serpent of Eden (Rev 12:9, 20:2) and points to Gen 3:1 and 17.

In other words, God is not “insulting the devil” at all in this case; he is accurately describing him and identifying Satan as the same misleader of men as he was in the Garden of Eden. This is also expanded and evidenced by the remainder of the verse!

Let’s get a running start. “...that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
Further, Stevens is inconsistent with his use of the English. The KJV calls him a ‘great’ dragon in the beginning of the verse. Are we to assume God is complimenting the ‘greatness’ of the devil here?

In mentioning Heb 12:8 he assumes the word ‘b***d’ is being used as a slang insult like one might use it today.

[cordell]

With Carl it was always something special, UNIQUE, and NEW as far as the teaching went:
"You will not hear this anywhere else"--"the average church will never learn what you're hearing today"--"you can mark it down" etc. ad nauseam.

Fact is, if it's new--it's probably not biblical. If it's biblical, the church has probably taught it historically (though some doctrines need the occasional recovery). God is not teaching anything 'new' about Himself--His revelation in Scripture (though inexhaustible as long as we dwell on earth) is complete. Start 'getting' new things that the church has not taught before and chances are you're headed for cult status.

[whatsup]

I agree that P.Stevens just plain made up some things...like the "faith fields" phase...I never did quite grasp what a "faith field" was supposed to be...sounds kind of new age or occultic to me. During that time I remember he would have people in the raps walk around the room in circles and it was supposed to somehow deliver them from whatever bondage they were in. He had my friend's husband walk around for his alcoholism, and apparently it did not work because he is still a drunk and they are now divorced. That whole little ritual always seemed so silly to me even then

[cordell]

If I've had a little too much Lustau the last thing I wanna be doing is walking around in circles.

Carl was always inventing ****e to go with some verse or another. Remember the 'lines that had fallen in pleasant places' from the Psalms? According to Carl that was like lines in your grey matter when you thought godly thoughts--especially those that came from Carly's spermons--uh--sermons (I'm leaving the Freudian typo). Actually it has to do with the boundaries of an inheritance--a kindred verse might be the one against removing an ancient landmark.

[whatsup]

or a real simple misinterpretation...like God being "beautiful for situations" which he took from that psalm about Mt Zion, that really read "beautiful for situation" and referred to the physical location of Mt Zion. I always wondered how he could be so anointed and misquote that, and I wondered why no one else noticed, but of course I was afraid to say anything and probably others were too.

[jeannie]

Hey J Graz,

Thanks for the commentary on "Throne Words." I hope you continue.

Jeannie

[anova]

I seem to remember that, even in my brainwashed state at the time, I looked up scriptures that didn't say what Carl was saying in Throne Words.

Here's one: There's a parable where a landowner who is leaving for a time says, "Occupy, till I come." Carl quotes it as Jesus saying, "Be occupied with ME till I come."

I remember looking up that verse and finding the discrepancy to be very disturbing.


(Oh, and faith fields(!). Dear God in Heaven Above, I'm glad I missed that one.)

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Faith fields?
Captain,the Klingons are attacking.
Raise the faith shields.
Fields,shields it's all from some episode of Star Trek if you ask me.

Almost like preaching from a medical book.
Desiccation of the Pyramids and all.

We all know this guy got his theology from anywhere he could find words that would obfuscate the flock.

What surprises me is that he never did a message from an automotive repair book.
"You must be <u>plugged</u> into the <u>block</u> in order to maintain <u>alignment</u>."
Something like that anyway.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

Hebrews 11:1 Faith is the "substance" of things hoped for,the "evidence" of things not yet seen.

</font>}

[sidethorn]

Amazing how Carl got together all these names of different demons (from wherever) to try to impress people. Then he would claim that there are 87 (whatever that number is) things that happen upon the point of salvation. He claimed to have all this knowledge (yeah, right!) and you can't hear any messages this 'good' anywhere else. That's a good thing that you don't hear messages that 'good' in Carl's eyes anywhere else. One cult like GGWO is already one too many. Carl wasted our time with many of his vain babblings. Glad I wasn't there at any of those raps where Carl had people play ring around the rosies to get delivered from bondages. How many people really got delivered from anything by walking in circles there??? Really?? Faith fields?? Ridiculous!! Then in mid 1997 Carl wasted a whole lot of peoples' time ranting against rock music in a whole 'teaching' series. Of course there's all those times Carl spent wasting peoples' time with all that slander and gossip against those who would dare question him or prefer God's truth over him. Carl truly was full of himself instead of the truth. A lot of peoples' time was wasted over the years listening to this 'man'.

[whatsup]

I remember in Lenox, "Pastor" would sometimes randomly be walking around the campus, say on a Saturday morning on the softball field or near the snack bar with another pastor and maybe one or two others. He would stop to talk to someone, and then one or two more would go over, and then more and more, and soon you had a whole group of fifty or more people and "Pastor" would give a little impromptu rap. The people nearest him could hear what he was saying and the rest would linger on the outskirts, craning their necks and hoping to catch enough to be a part of the latest anointed revelation, or maybe just a bit of juicy gossip (given of course for our own protection and warning). If you happened to come too late or missed it completely, one of the lucky ones would tell you "Pastor just gave a rap..it was aMAZing" and you would feel like you had missed the second coming itself. It all seems so ridiculous now. We were acting like teenage "Carl groupies" and we could not even see it. I am ashamed to say that it affected my family life and stole time from me that I can never get back.

(Message edited by whatsup on September 15, 2006)

[in_shock]

This one Carlism would make anyone paranoid. "You are accountable for everything said from the pulpit". The sense was that even if you were not there to actually hear it, or perhaps if your mind wandered and you missed it, you were still accountable. Is this control or what?

[escaped]

control!

[j_graz]

On Page 123, referring to the overcoming Christian:

As the blood is applied to their hearts and minds by faith through the washing of the water of the Word, they confess with their mouths by their will, through their minds and emotions...

When you would hear this kind of phraseology in person or on tape, it was delivered with the kind of confidence and/or boldness that made the listener have to strain to follow it. I remember feeling stupid or frustrated.

But there it is, in writing; a grammatical disaster!
I think he is trying to express the mystical function of faith in a believer's life.

However, the real theology of this is quite weak.
First - Is the Blood of Christ literally "applied" to the heart in the same way that the Jews used hyssop to apply the Passover blood to the door posts of their homes? No, it is not.
Literally (my opinion) the blood was applied to the mercy seat on behalf of the elect in Christ.

It's our understanding of this work of God in the heavenlies, that gives us freedom to live as we ought to, not this kind of sloppy allegorical stretch. Christ did His work as the High Priest and when He finished...He sat down. The blood of Christ is not "applied to their hearts by the washing of the water of Word." It was applied on their behalf, once for all (Heb 9:12).
The washing of the water of the water of the word, is the ongoing sanctifying work of Christ on behalf of His bride (Eph 5:26).

Pastor Stevens is saying that the blood is continually applied as the word is used to wash us. This is simply incorrect.

The next phrase, "they confess with their mouths by their will, through their minds and emotions..." Is actually the introductory set up to the concept of "Throne Words".
Somehow the confession of this (stretched) reality is what gives the Christian overcoming authority.

Here's the phrase in context "...they confess with their mouths by their will, through their minds and emotions This particular group of people cannot be overcome. 1 John 5:18b (always bugs me whenever someone creates a supposition from a piece of a verse) calls them untouchable..."

1 John 5:18 in its entirety says, "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

I was really shocked to see that a lot of good scholars said that "he that is begotten of God" most likely refers to Christ.
The phrase "keepeth himself" is not a good translation at all. Kenneth Wuest shows that the aorist tense of "is begotten" refers to the Son of God as opposed to the present tense of "is born" which refers to the believer. He then translates the verse like this: "He who was born out of God maintains a watchful guardianship over him, and the Pernicious One does not lay hold of him."
(Word Studies Vol. II page 183)
Quoting Wuest - "Smith says, 'there is no comfort in the thought that we are in our own keeping; our security is not in our grip on Christ, but His grip on us!'"
(sorry...got say it..."awesome")

Calling the believer "untouchable" is inaccurate.
What's being said is that since we are being held onto by Christ, Satan can not repossess us.
Vincent uses "lay hold of" also.

I will close this post with a quote from the Amplified Bible:

We know (absolutely) that any one born of God does not (deliberately and knowingly) practice committing sin, but the One Who was begotten of God carefully watches over and protects him (Christ's divine presence within him preserves him against the evil), and the wicked one does not lay hold (get a grip) on him or touch (him).

[whatsup]

Stan Ashby taught from the writings of Madame Guyon????? that is really odd....I have no idea who Richard Rollo is. Stan was definitely out there, but much of what he said went right over most people's heads. I always thought his wife was such an unlikely match for him, I wonder how they ever got together. Talk about complete opposites......

[shat_happens]

great read graz, thanks!

That's very interesting, whenever i've read that verse, i've NEVER taken as God calling the devil names! that's just stupid!

I move that FACTnet be renamed to GRAZnet!

[cordell]

I knew Stan and Sylvia as well as anyone. Trust me, they were a match made in heaven.

[huisjen]

So if the sermons were so boring, why do you want to re-hash them now? Don't let me stop you. It's just that I still don't get the thrill.

Dan

[sidethorn]

Thrill?? It's part of exposing a cult and its false and useless teachings.

[gone_to_pa]

This is what used to frustrate me to no end. He would say "Now Listen Carefully" "Number one they blah, blah ,blah, blah." And here I am pen and paper in hand ready to hear a what, 3 point message, 5 point message, I'm at least expecting a few more points, but most of the time, that's where it died, seldom did it ever make it to "Number Two" because if it did we'd know exactly what the message was anyway, a BIG #2.

Graz, thanks for the TW thing. Never quite heard it like that. Any idea's on how to unmemorize? LoL http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif gTp Peace

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Hey GTP,
read psalm 119 one hundred times.
It'll push out the garbage,LOL.

</font>}

[hey_you]

Whatsup,
What you said, about CHS walking around w/ one or two people turning into a "rap" w/ more joining in and others standing on the outside trying to listen, still happens to this day. Scibelli will be walking out to his car or something w/ a few people, then you have more people join in because after all it's "Scibelli, the father of African missions". (ad nauseum)
Its crazy, but not really surprising, to hear that the impromptu rap thing has been going on for decades now!!
I occasionally check out the GG website, and last night I saw in the archives a title "Video and message". I sometimes listen just to see how far I have come from where I used to be. So, I was curious as to what the video was. Sure enough, the video was an older, 1997, video of CHS preaching.
He started by saying something like, "Its amazing when families purpose in theaa haaats to be here at 7 oclowck." He goes on to talk about "Faith Appointments". I'm sure like everyone else, I was feverishly writing down all points 1, 3, and 6... ( that ones for you GTP. : )
What the hell is a faith appointment?
He then said that "Faith appointments" turn into "Faith schedule appointments". I guess the faith appointment was being faithful to the borg and missing any Assimilations... er services.

Another thing I noticed is that they only have the financial heavy hitters get up and do the awful, I mean offering. I could go down the list of those that were there at one point:
Steve Taylor
Joe DeLawder
Ed Widgeon
Ed Murphy
Bill Kline
Ned Kissinger
Pete Wisteria
Dietmar
Tim Munson... the list goes on and on..

Glad to be unplugged,

HY

[forte]

and now....they have raps, after raps, then coffee at dunks.

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
Yup,
the simplicity that is in Christ has been replaced with psycobabble.
Oh yeah,
and the worship of men.

Follow no man but Christ Jesus.

</font>}}}

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
How about the "greater grace" message?
It comes acroos as though GGWO is given more grace than other more "inferior" churches does it not?

We have more than any other church in the world!
The best pastor.The best messages and the most grace.Yes we have greater grace.Others only have plain grace of the common type which makes all other churches common and less effective.

Yaaa,sure.

</font>}}}

[sidethorn]

They got more of something alright, but it ain't grace. Its dead works and the worship and trusting of man. How they preach about the finished work of Christ at the cross like nobody else fully understands it while GGWO's leadership supposedly does. Then GGWO turns around and adds in all this extra-Biblical teaching of legalistic dos and don'ts as more useless messages to put people in bondage with. Worthless message after message about coming to three services every week; never leave 'the ministry'; never say a word against 'the ministry'; always pay your tithe and then some; never listen to any rock, rap, music (any music Carl doesn't like) and get rid of your music collection that has banned music in GGWO circles; never ever hug, kiss, or hold hands with that loved one you haven't married yet; no long hair for guys ever (what would Samson say about that??); and commandment and commandment after commandment that are not supported by Scripture. GGWO a greater grace?? No, GGWO is a greater bondage, and a greater disgrace!!!!

[whatsup]

Well hey_you....I hope when Scibell is doing his "impromptu raps" that there are men present, because the last time I heard him speak in one (at convention a couple of years ago) he said that if only women were present he would get up and leave. He said he was "not called to teach women". I guess women are not worth the effort or investment. What an arrogant sexist <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> use your imagination to fill in the dots

[cordell]

let's see...
barsteward
bustard
bersturd
barstud
bahstuhd
bahstahd
bassturd
ba$tard?

You just have to be imaginative to get around the pfekking dots.

Scibelli has a turds for brains, no Marys, Marthas, Lydias in his circle no doubt--just airheads.

(Message edited by cordell on September 23, 2006)

[whatsup]

LOL....actually the word I tried to type was jack--- ....did not think it was bad enough to be censored but I guess it was

[david_munson]

<font color="000000"><font face="arial,helvetica"></font>
And the Lord God made a helpmate for Adam and saw that it was good.

GGWO saw that God had made a helpmate for man and said it wasn't good "enough".
A few ladies ought to get together and "teach" Schibelli a lesson,LOL.
Like some good old fashioned respect.
(punch,kick,smack,slap!)
Anyone have a woodshed?
http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/biggrin.gif

</font>}

[sidethorn]

GGWO saw to "improve" on many things of God with their arrogant messages. Women weren't good enough and we're treated like second class citizens; and so we're the children! Then GGWO came out with all these other useless doctrines like delegated authority, never disagree with your pastor-teacher, geographical will, etc. Carl and his men just couldn't leave well enough alone with the Word, but had to put their own twist on the Word as an "improvement". Then they claim their teaching is so great and you can't find teaching that good preached anywhere else! What a load of camel kaka!! While other sincere pastors submit to the Word and try to really learn from it, GGWO leaders twist the Word to make It say what they think It should say!!!! Carl claims all these decades of "ministry" when its really decades of useless messages that put people in bondage to himself!!

[shat_happens]

Here are some "Thrown Woids" for ya!

I love this yelling and so fahry!

http://www.mbcs.edu/files/images/Stevens/Thronewords.mp3