Cordell On YHWH For Daved [Archive]

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cordell

10-02-2006, 01:50 PM

Imagine that, a YAHWEH thread that was not initiated by our dear, but obsessed friend Dave Donnelly. That is his name. Dave, let me start with a sincere apology in being abrupt and short with you. I know, because you follow football that there is a real guy under there somewhere. Most of us have just become accustomed that good ol’ Dave is gonna keep talking about the Divine Name. I don’t expect that this non-comprehensive and brief attempt at explanation is going to change all that, but Dave, this one’s for you, man.

Let me have your undivided attention please and turn to the second chapter of Genesis if you would, beginning at verse four. Now Dave will be aware, as I am sure many of you are that this is the very first time in all of Scripture that we encounter the Divine Name:

“These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.”

Every time we see ‘LORD’ in the OT we know that is the Tetragrammaton, the ineffable name, letters in the Hebrew language consisting of 4 consonants corresponding to our YHWH. In the English language ‘LORD’ is as close as we can get to the concept of what that name means. Yet because we are so far removed as Americans from ever having lived under an absolute monarch that much of the concept is wasted on us. We even tend to think God is democratic in his governmental outlook. He’s not. He is an ABSOLUTE ruler. He gets to make the rules, he gets to make all things for himself for his own glory yet he is worthy because he is good. This is what the Name is all about. A name is personal, it means you can be known.

Now I’m familiar, as I’m sure are many—of Wellhausen’s theories of redaction and the so-called documents of J, E, D and P. I am not going to get into all that here because it will serve absolutely no purpose—so go look that stuff up yourself, OK?

The chapter goes on to discuss the LORD God making man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into him, and planted a garden and placed him in it. In this garden were all kinds of trees good for fruit, but there were two special trees—the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This LORD God goes on to make all sorts of animals for the man to name and take dominion over. The LORD God gives the man a woman for companionship and makes a covenant with him concerning the two special trees.

cordell

10-02-2006, 01:52 PM

Do we really know for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt how to pronounce this Divine Name? No. As a Calvinist, I am immediately convinced that there is a perfectly good reason for that in the overall plan of God. This is all I could come up with, shoddy answer that it is: God does not want you and I to know how to say his Name. WHAT? Well, think about it this way—the high priest was only able once a year to enter into the presence of this YHWH and that with no small amount of trembling. Scripture tells us that no man has seen this YHWH and lived. Even Moses had to look on the passing glory—not full on—of this YHWH and then he had to be veiled. In Exodus, the people begged Moses that this LORD God would not speak to them any more because it was so frightening an experience. The question in my mind arose, “Well, Jim, why do you think you need a mediator?” There is but one and that is Jesus Christ—he is the one who shows us the Father. He is the one who provides the grace for me to stand in, to help me approach the throne boldly in my hour of need. Because it is this Jesus who told me that it is the Father’s good pleasure to give us the kingdom that we are commanded to seek. But I digress.

What do we learn of this YHWH from Genesis the second chapter?

We know that He is the maker of all that is. We know that he is sufficient in himself and absolutely without any need of us or any other creature. We know that he does things because it pleases him. We know that he cares for and provides for all the needs of his creatures and has an intent and purpose for them which he intends to bring to fruition. We know that he put his human creatures to a test of trust in his word and boundaries. Our sin has the consequence of assigning weightlessness and an inconsequentiality to this LORD God. We are alright if he will stay in his place and not interfere with us. At best, we have made this LORD God our servant, he’s there to serve our purposes, to make us happy, to see that we don’t suffer or die an ugly death. He should stay in that building with the steeple and let me get on with things and then let me have a good rousing uplifting time on a Sunday to reassure me that he’s ‘lookin’ out for me.’ But he should not dare impose on me the idea that I exist for his glory, or that I am made for his pleasure, or that he will do as he wants with my life and all the earth.

The other thing we see in Genesis the second chapter is interaction. This LORD God desires to know and be known, hence the test with the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He gets to declare what is good and evil, we are not the arbiters. We can only know what is worth knowing by knowing him. Blaise Pascal once wrote, “Perfect are the good desires you have given me, be their End, as you have been their beginning.” We are created to know this LORD God:

“Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, let not the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches; but let him who glories glory in this, that he understands me and knows me, that I am the LORD who practices steadfast love, justice and righteousness in the earth; for in these things I delight, says the LORD.”
Jeremiah 9:23-24.

cordell

10-02-2006, 01:54 PM

Can we know him exhaustively? No. Can we know him truly and personally? We must, because:

“Salvation belongs to the LORD, your blessing be on your people.” Psalm 3:8

He will be glorified by his people: “I am the LORD, that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to a carved idol.” Is. 42:8 “He is the blessed Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen 1 Tim. 6:16.

If we are to approach God at all, we must approach him through HIS appointed mediator, the Lord Jesus Christ who is the fullness of the Godhead. God has shown us his way to know him, it is not through being able to fill in the vowels in the ineffable Tetragrammaton, but through being adopted as the child of the LORD through coming to Christ.

Dave, there isn’t any other answer but Christ. If God were so worried about the pronunciation of his name, would he invite you to call on him by a name that requires no teeth to utter? Abba is just such a name. All good and perfect gifts come from the Father of lights. There are lots of teachers, brother, some approved and some not. Even the very best of them cannot know God on your behalf. You have to know him yourself.

daved

10-02-2006, 07:27 PM

Hi Jim Cordell,

I hope you don't mind if I ask Pastor John Leonard to reply to your first thread on YHWH.
__________________________________________________ _______________

You wrote:

>>>
Every time we see ‘LORD’ in the OT we know that is the Tetragrammaton, the ineffable name, letters in the Hebrew language consisting of 4 consonants corresponding to our YHWH.
>>>

And you also wrote:

>>>
Do we really know for sure,
beyond a shadow of a doubt how to pronounce this Divine Name?

No.
>>>

And you also wrote:

>>>
This is all I could come up with, shoddy answer that it is:
God does not want you and I to know how to say his Name
>>>

And you also wrote:

>>>
God has shown us his way to know him,
it is not through being able to fill in the vowels in the ineffable Tetragrammaton,
but through being adopted as the child of the LORD through coming to Christ.
>>>

In the message that Pastor John D. Leonard preached on August 6, 2006 Pastor John Leonard used the name Yahweh 8 times.
And note how Pastor John Leonard tries to equate "the LORD" of the Old Testament with "the Lord Jesus Christ" of the New Testament.
Pastor Leonard uses a lot of paranthetical expressions during his message.
They are in green font below.

Pastor Leonard says:

>>>
But turn with me to Isaiah chapter 45,
and Yahweh is speaking here,
and wherever you see,

[most of the time in the King James they get it right]

a capital L-O-R-D in the Old Testament,

that’s the name Yahweh,

the covenant name of God

and really it’s like “I AM who I AM”.

But in the Hebrew mind whenever they use…,

[You don‘t have to use the verb “to be”.

You just say, and it’s the same in the Greek, like “God Loves“,

when you speak of the state of somebody,

like “God is holy” we say.]

….But in Hebrew and Greek you just say “God holy”

when you’re speaking of, like their state, their state of being.

And most of the time when they use the verb “to be” in reference to God

it’s in the dynamic way, in a relational way.

And you know I like to translate it like “I AM WHO I AM” , I AM WHO I IS”

or “I AM WHO IS”

like I’m the one right here now,

you know I AM, always have been, and always will be,

but right now I’m like here and you know I want to bless you with some wisdom from above.

And Yahweh’s speaking here, and look at 21b, at the end of it. He says:

“there is no God else beside me; a just God and Saviour; there is none beside me.

Look unto me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth,

For I God, I am God and there is none else.”

“I have sworn,”

[and in the Hebrew that’s actually I have seven. ( the finished work ).

It’s the same word for seven, a noun.]

“I have sworn”
[or I have promised by myself (unconditional)]

TO BE CONTINUED

cordell

10-02-2006, 07:46 PM

Daved, to be trinitarian is not to abandon monotheism. There is one God, he exists in three persons. We approach the Father through the mediator, the Son. The Father and the Son send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit speaks through the prophets to reveal the Son, etc.

The Lord Jesus Christ is equally the "I AM" of scripture as are the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Remember the shema? Hear O Israel: The LORD our God, The LORD is one. Or: The LORD our God is one LORD Or: The LORD is our God, the LORD is one. Or: The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.

The persons of the Trinity equally bear the Divine Name.

cordell

10-02-2006, 07:50 PM

Ok, Daved. I didn't think I'd move you that much, but it was an attempt.

So, what's your favorite cheese?

daved

10-02-2006, 07:54 PM

“the word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness and shalt not return,

That unto me every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall swear.”

You know in Philippians 2:9 through 11, the Bible says He could therefore,}



And Philippians 2:9,

“God has highly exalted Christ, and given Him the name which is above every name,”

[every name in heaven, every name on earth, or every name under the earth],

“that Jesus” [the Messiah, Jesus the Christ], “is Lord to the glory of God the Father“,

Amen.

And you know Paul quoted this verse right from Isaiah here (e.g. Isaiah 45:23),

“that unto me every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess.”

And it’s beautiful to have the New Testament, and look back,

and many times when the name [b]Yahweh is used

it’s almost like you see the triune Godhead,

especially Christ in God the Father, in the use of that name.

There’s like this ah multiuse where many Old Testament passages,

where it talks about…

[ Turn with me to Zechariah 12:10, and keep your finger on Isaiah 45]

…In Zechariah 12:10,

this is when Christ at His second coming for the nation of Israel,

at the end of the tribulation…

….Of course at the end of Isaiah 45 it says “all of Israel will be justified in me”, [not quoted perfectly]

but in Zechariah 12:10 there’s a similar passage where Yahweh’s speaking

for we see Christ included in this.

OK Zechariah 12:10

“I will pour out on the house of David, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications: so that they will look on me”

[ God, Yahweh speaking, they are going to:],
“look upon me God, who they have pierced,
and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son.
[Notice the change in pronoun.
They are going to look on Me whom they have pierced,
but they are going to mourn for Him.]

Now go back to Isaiah 45:23, Notice that in Isaiah 45:
“every knee is going to bow, and every tongue shall swear” to “Yahweh”

Remember 24,
“surely shall one say in “Yahweh” have I righteousness”
[and we know today our righteousness is in Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:21]
“and strength:”
[and our only power is in the Grace that is found in Christ Jesus
But notice it says:]
 “even to Him shall men come”
[he switches the pronouns again,
men are going to come to Jesus]
And I was just thinking about the name of the Lord Jesus
and His throne ministry to us over the years.

Daved

cordell

10-02-2006, 08:12 PM

The use of the LORD in the ESV by C. John Collins of Covenant Seminary (http://www.esv.org/bounce/wm/media/translators/ask.1.10.collins.wmv)

hadasa

10-02-2006, 08:40 PM

God: "So Daved; let's review, what did you do with your life"

Daved: "well JHWH, I mean YHWH...........crap"

hadasa

10-02-2006, 10:07 PM

those first three posts; really thoughtful answer and printable

hadasa

10-02-2006, 10:09 PM

those first three posts; really thoughtful answer and printable

cordell

10-02-2006, 11:16 PM

Daved,

Thanks so much for your able transcription of John Leonard's sermon.

But what I am really interested in is "What does Daved have to say on the subject--apart from any GGWO references?"

Would you please address that issue.

And how 'bout those Jets against Peyton Manning! Pretty close.

Are you just not a cheese guy daved?

daved

10-02-2006, 11:21 PM

hadasa presented me with a hypothetical situation.:

>>>
God: "So Daved; let's review, what did you do with your life"

Daved: "well JHWH, I mean YHWH...........crap"
>>>

Actually I sort of wish that God would ask me that question.

I can only assume I would have to swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

I would feel honor bound to answer God that between the years 1975 and about 1992 I was following a Pastor Teacher [i.e. Pastor Carl Stevens]that dogmatically believed that God's name was "Jehovah".

I would be honor bound to mention how in about 1992, on The Grace Hour, Pastor Carl Stevens told me personally over the phone that "Jehovah is NOT a false translation of God's name.

I would again be honor bound to mention how a few years later I would again be on the phone with Pastor Carl Stevens, on The Grace Hour, when he told me and thousands of listeners, that he was the first to admit that he was wrong to have believed that God's name was "Jehovah" for 30-35 years.

And finally I would feel honor bound to tell God how again a few years later Pastor Carl Stevens told his listening audience in a taped message played on The Grace Hour that God did not apreciate an evangelical Bible [e.g. the King James Bible that Pastor Carl Stevens was holding in his hand while he preached this particular message]that called Him [i.e. God] Jehovah. And I would continue to feel honor bound to tell God how Pastor Carl Stevens not only explained to his audience that God's name was "YaHWeH", but told his audience that even if someone had never heard this message, they would still have no excuse at the Bema Seat for not knowing that God's is "YaHWeH".

Finally I would feel honor bound to make known to God that Pastor Carl Stevens was teaching that his ministry was a "preciseness ministry", and that no body would have any excuse for not knowing God's correct name YaHWeH at the Bema Seat Judgement.

years Pastor Carl Stevens has taught in messages played on "The Grace Hour" that he dogmatically believes that God's name was "YaHWeH".

And I would mention how Pastor Carl Stevens further has taught his listeners that his ministry is a "preciseness ministry" and that everyone is "NOW" expected to believe that God's name is "YaHWeH" or they can expect to receive some sort of loss of rewards at the Bema Seat.

Daved

orangetwopay

10-03-2006, 12:11 AM

what friggin difference does it make??? pay attention to what cordell is actually getting at!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

cordell

10-03-2006, 12:25 AM

Daved,

Brother,

Please listen--

God is not going to ask you how to pronounce his name or what you thought about it--honor bound or not.

Daved--what did you do with Jesus?

Are you going to be one who hears:

"Depart from me, ye who work iniquity"?

OR:

Are you going to hear:

"Enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

You will not give an account for how many taped messages you heard. You will give an account for your own works. You will either have an advocate with the Father or you will not.

You will either trust in your own righteousness or you will have another's righteousness paid to your account.

Which is it?

daved

10-03-2006, 12:53 AM

My last post was posted by mistake.
There is an error in the next to the last sentence.
__________________________________________________ ________

Cordell wrote:

>>>
Daved,

Thanks so much for your able transcription of John Leonard's sermon.
>>>

I transcribed it weeks ago, this seemed to be the correct time to post it.
So what do you think about Pastor Leonard's obvious strong belief that God's name is "YaHWeH"?

>>>
But what I am really interested in is "What does Daved have to say on the subject--apart from any GGWO references?"
Would you please address that issue.
>>>

That will be one of my next projects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh
At the link above you will find the Wikipedia Article:Yahweh,
which covers both Jehovah and Yahweh.

For all practical purposes,
I am the author/compiler of the first ten sections of this article.

>>>
And how 'bout those Jets against Peyton Manning! Pretty close.
>>>

I think that that was probably the best game I ever watched. When the Jets got behind 7-0 in the first 3 minutes, I was prepared to watch the entire game even if the Colts went ahead 30-0 at half time. Actually it was 14-14 at half time.

I never saw anything like those last 8 seconds [officially 8 seconds but actually much longer].

Jim, I hope you broke away from the Dallas game to see the last few seconds of the Jets game.

>>>
Are you just not a cheese guy daved?
>>>

Very seldom do I eat any cheese,
although I do enjoy Howard Johnson's Macaroni & Cheese.

Daved

orangetwopay

10-03-2006, 01:28 AM

here daved, just for you...

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2006/10/daved-who-do-you-say-that-i-am.html

(wearing my colts jersey even though MNF is the pack and the birds...)

bruder5

10-03-2006, 01:28 AM

"This child is destined for the falling and the rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be opposed....and a sword will pierce your own soul..."
Luke 2:34-35

"The world which surrounds us is temporary and its laws were negated by the Son of God's act of submission to them. The Prince of this World triumphed, and as a result he lost.
Czeslaw Milosz

cordell

10-03-2006, 06:13 PM

I didn't know Howard Johnsons still had restaurants! We only have the motels down here.

So Daved, we know that you listen to a lot of GGWO online, etc.

1. Do you attend a local assembly somewhere?

2. Do you listen only to GGWO stuff or do you listen to anyone else?

daved

10-03-2006, 08:04 PM

Cordell,
You wrote:

>>>
I didn't know Howard Johnsons still had restaurants! We only have the motels down here.
>>>

Massachusetts supermarkets sell Howard Johnson frozen Macaroni & Cheese.

>>>
So Daved, we know that you listen to a lot of GGWO online, etc.

1. Do you attend a local assembly somewhere?
>>>

Nope. After Pastor Carl Stevens left Massachusetts in about 1989, Friday night Bible Studies continued at Charlotte Dunning School in Framingham for several years.
I occasionally went to services there, and at one of those services, [at a time when in Baltimore Pastor Carl Stevens was speaking harshly about the name Jehovah], singers at Charlotte Dunning School sung a hymm to "Jehovah" :-)

>>>
2. Do you listen only to GGWO stuff or do you listen to anyone else?
>>>

I take notes when Cordell writes about YHWH on FACTNet.
__________________________________________________ _________________

By the way you and I agree on something.
You wrote:

>>>
Do we really know for sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt how to pronounce this Divine Name? No.
>>>

I agree.

You also wrote:
>>>
Every time we see ‘LORD’ in the OT we know that is the Tetragrammaton, the ineffable name, letters in the Hebrew language consisting of 4 consonants corresponding to our YHWH.
In the English language ‘LORD’ is as close as we can get to the concept of what that name means.
>>>

Since in the underlying Hebrew of the Old Testament of the KJV, the Masoretes wrote "Yehovah" in most but not all cases where the KJV says "the LORD", DO YOU THINK IT IS POSSIBLE THAT GOD HIMSELF INSPIRED THE MASORETES TO POINT YHWH WITH A "MODIFIED" FORM OF THE VOWEL POINTS OF "ADONAY", to indicate to the Jewish reader that he was to read "Adonay" when he saw "Yehovah"?

Did you take a look at the Wikipedia Article:Yahweh?

Daved

cordell

10-03-2006, 09:21 PM

Daved,

I attended services from time to time at the Charlotte Dunning School in Framingham. I was the original pastor of the group that met in Worcester (at Holy Cross in 1975) and at the University in Lowell. I used to travel down from South Berwick on Saturday night and then have to preach and do Sunday School in Sanford, Maine on Sunday morning...and then travel to Scarborough for an afternoon service only to have to hustle back to SB for an evening service. Then on Monday AM there was "Psychology and the Bible" or "Corporate Body Life" or some other such crap.

When you visited SB in 1975, did I meet you? I was the fat smiley one.

I did view the Wiki article. It's pretty impressive and you've obviously done a lot of work on it. But you do need to connect Christ as the fullness of the Godhead as well as describe how the concept of the Divine Name fits Trinitarian doctrine, since cults have been discussed already. Christians hold that those New Testament doctrines which reveal the nature of God and of Christ as the God-man are concealed and initiated in the Old Testament.

I thought C. John Collins made an interesting point concerning 1 Peter 3:15 in the video clip I posted above.

FROZEN MACARONI AND CHEESE?????
Daved tell me you are not surviving on fast food and microwaved crap!

cordell

10-03-2006, 09:30 PM

Also, parts of the article relies heavily on Wellhausen's views of criticism--which I mentioned above. Evangelicals generally reject Wellhausen as part of the whole "demythologizing" effort to explain the transmission of the Scriptures. It might be worthwhile to interject an opposite view to the J,E,D & P theories--unless of course you hold to those.

cordell

10-03-2006, 09:41 PM

Since in the underlying Hebrew of the Old Testament of the KJV, the Masoretes wrote "Yehovah" in most but not all cases where the KJV says "the LORD", DO YOU THINK IT IS POSSIBLE THAT GOD HIMSELF INSPIRED THE MASORETES TO POINT YHWH WITH A "MODIFIED" FORM OF THE VOWEL POINTS OF "ADONAY", to indicate to the Jewish reader that he was to read "Adonay" when he saw "Yehovah"?

You have to ask yourself what internal compulsion would these copyists have to do that--if they were familiar with Scripture?

Note this Scripture:
The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

What do we do with that? Blessing is always done in the NAME of another. What do you do with this:

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

cordell

10-03-2006, 09:46 PM

The command in Numbers is addressed to Moses to communicate to the sons of Aaron. Who were they?

 Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them...

The second describes Christ blessing little children. Who is he? (Heb.3:1; 4:14; 5:10, etc.)

lana

10-03-2006, 09:47 PM

Please1 Enough of this.

cordell

10-03-2006, 10:01 PM

Now, now Lana.

What do you think of Howard Johnson's frozen mac and cheese?

Personally, my middle son and I quite like the Kraft boxed stuff--if you chop up Oscar Meyer weiners in it and make sure you add enough milk and butter so it doesn't get dry--but retains a rich and creamy texture. A side of green beans with bacon with those little potatoes added make a nice side--looking at it on a chinette paper plate on a gingham tablecloth can conjure up many a 'First Babdis' Church' picnic...

Some of the really old timers will remember that moi was the very first NESB official cook for student meals--serving in Chute's bakery such delicacies as carrots normandaise ala US NAVY official recipe... No one died, but alas, no one raved. Bruder5 was already a married man at the time, but many others suffered--I have improved greatly since.

david_munson

10-04-2006, 03:52 PM

Yeah,
no one died.
No one raved cause they where speachless.
How about their taste buds?http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/lame.gif

What about the prolonged effect?
Are there folks walking around now with peptic ulcers from your culinary experimentation?
Worse yet,maybe their bellies are drooping out from all those ingedients.(pot belly)
Maybe it was a slow death over years.http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/proud.gif

Just kidding of course but you already know I can't help it.
LMAO.

At least the food had more healthy substance than all the false doctrines taught by Carl.

}

cordell

10-05-2006, 03:11 AM

Actually most of those folks are still around (I think)...I cannot attest to their MENTAL health, Tom Schaller was one of the men who ate there. Maybe it was that Normandaise sauce.

These days I do a pot roast recipe that requires a healthy amount of burgundy. It's probably all that alcohol that makes it so good.

david_munson

10-05-2006, 05:08 AM

I do up a mean chowder (being a Mainer and all)
that contains two kinds os corn,several types of seafood and potatoes with some baby clam juice and "real" buttah (not the crap most of you good folks eat either,LOL) and cream.

You know ya just can't leave the onions and garlic out either.
---
Yes folks,welcome to the culinary arts thread where you can enjoy the discussion about God's name while cooking a wonderful meal for your loved ones.
Or just pop up some jiffy pop.
(they still have jiffy pop,don't they?)

A+E

}

littlesister

10-05-2006, 01:25 PM

Cordell - there were carrotts in South Berwick? Real live carrots, a veggie - god I can't believe I missed that, must have been at the end of the line those days! All I remember is fried baloney and mashed potatoes. Good thing we were all living on love those days.

cordell

10-05-2006, 01:28 PM

Carrots in SB? Nope, they were in Bath before the move in '73! After that we went over to carbs.