CHS Finally Exposed for Who He Truly is Part II [Archive]

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

08-26-2006, 01:28 PM

Mt 7:15-23

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 " Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 " Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you;DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
NASB

david_munson

08-26-2006, 01:45 PM

40.CHS is unaccountable to anyone but God,unlike all other believers who are accountable to each other according to God's Word.
41.CHS is an unrepentent liar and has abused,decieved and misled the body of Christ for his own gain.
42.CHS is a twister and perverter of God's own Holy Word.
43.CHS is not the schollar that he pretends to be.
44.CHS is not the focus of anything important where it pertains to truth.
45.CHS is meantioned way too many times in your post.
46.CHS has no special authority from God.
47.CHS is a usurper of the Holy Spirit's position in each believers life.

}

jim_buckley

08-26-2006, 02:21 PM

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves."

Are you implying CHS is not saved? Or are you just taking Scripture out of context?

"david_munson"

Some words of life to ponder.

2Co 5:16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.

Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

out

08-26-2006, 03:02 PM

Yes Jim, I question the salvation of a habitual adulterer and man who bilked an heiress of her millions and then lied on stand in a court of law.

I question the salvation of a man who is an unrepenant drug addict who surrounds himself to this day with sycophants and has not a family member left in his life.

The mark of a Christian is how they live their daily life. You are a Christian, Jim. You have left the mark of Jesus in how you conduct your life. Do you see the mark of Jesus on CHS's life?

And please do not address "the work" but "the fruit." The work of the ministry was lived out by you and me and countless othes, not CHS.

Out
(Out of TBS/GGWO but not Christ)

jim_buckley

08-26-2006, 03:42 PM

out

"Do you see the mark of Jesus on CHS's life?"

Could we see it in David's life the year before Nathan showed up? But David was still a man after God's own heart.

It doesn't matter what we see on the outside of a believer, the reality is that that believer is "IN Christ".

out

08-26-2006, 05:21 PM

Jim,
You are absolutely right that "the reality is that a believer is IN Christ." Great positional truth.

But according to scripture it DOES matter what we see on the outside of a believer!

In John 15:8 "This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."

What is fruit, John? Is it love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness?

And in Mt.7:16 You will fully recognize them by their fruits.

I thank God for the teaching I received in TBS/GGWO concerning postitional truth. But postional truth does discount the need to examine fruit. It does not give shepherds a free pass to abuse the sheep. CHS used postional truth to his advantage and grew up a flock of believers to be victims of spiritual abuse, to ignore sin in the leadership and to stand by when fellow believers were mocked, slandered and sinned against by CHS from the pulpit and raps.

The mass exodus of just about every leader, elder and branch ministry is a result of years of NOT examining the fruit of CHS.

There would not be these message boards if CHS had been held accountable years ago.

jim_buckley

08-26-2006, 05:58 PM

out

"In John 15:8 "This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples."

I'm glad you brought that up since Jesus also said:

Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

It doesn't say to love only those who live up to MY standard, it simply says "love one to another" or all believers in Christ. Not much love around here for CHS or GGWO.

"What is fruit, John? Is it love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness?"

As a fruit inspector, are the above fruits over flowing out of you like living waters?

"when fellow believers were mocked, slandered and sinned against by....."

Wounded members on factnet?

rjfernalld

08-26-2006, 06:05 PM

Key word there, Jim...."wounded"

Wounded people are generally bleeding, in a lot of pain and not very happy abput it. Reality, Jim? CHS is a dangerous man...and the memories of the wounds he inflicted upon the spirit and soul of so many are still fresh...God will forgive us our anger, our lack of forgiveness and our righteous indignation.

Besides, unless we speak up, speak out and speak often, CHS and GGWO are free to continue to damage souls. I will never stop walking arund the walls of this place, obeying Joshua's commands...we will continue till the walls of GGWO fall.

They must fall so the captives can be free.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

08-26-2006, 06:27 PM

My dear brother Jim,

You are sooo predictable.

Where is the fruit from the boys in charge?

They created the culture of slandering and mocking and you call those who point out their hypocrisy as wounded? This is your rationalization of not dealing with the truth. The mantra many in IAGM and GGWO chant. More categorical doctrine?

Are you capable of any critical thinking skills?

What IAGM church do you attend now? I have spoken with many IAGM leaders and you sound so familiar. You label all who warn as bitter. Of course some are bitter they have been devoured! They were bitten by wolves in sheep's clothing. What do you expect tough guy?

You point out there is not love around here?

How do you know that many are bitter?

Do you consider that many post in a spirit of love considering their own walk lest they stumble?

I do not claim to be perfect but I have learned the smell of garbage. And, I have compassion on the bitter. They are hurt. But, the wolves need to be confronted.

Yes, I discern that CHS and his cronies are wolves who devour the sheep. Decades of testimony support this. And, I have encouraged many with their bite marks to return to Christ find forgiveness towards the wolves but than warn others like you who need to see it for what it is. I am not bitter. But, I sure gained wisdom. When there is confession and repentance from GGWO and IAGM then they can be treated as brothers who erred and are in need of restoration. Until then let the warnings continue.

And don't float your twisting of Scripture about David in my bathtub. David was chatised and he repented. He did not carry on with a hardened heart like Pharoah; or GGWO and many in the IAGM who sing a new beginning without looking at the past. I suppose it is just too painful. Just call us bitter because we see it is what it is!

BTW, in regard to repentance if you change your mind your body will follow. Bring forth deeds worthy of repentance. All that kinda thing, etc. But, your Gnostic view of the Scripture denies this. You are in the spirit world.

Again, I think you would have made a great Papal apologist...but, I know you and I know that you love the LORD and are seeking HIS mind.. I see the good in you despite the blinders to the truth of the ugly side of GGWO. You have the Spirit in you.

Have you read:
the Martin Report?
The Betsy Court Trial?
The testimonies on carlstevens.org?

Or, are these just all evil reports?
If you are the man I know you to be then you will read these and see it for what it is.

jim_buckley

08-26-2006, 07:31 PM

rjfernalld

"CHS is a dangerous man"

Anyone can be dangerous if I live in fear, but perfect love casts out all fear.

".and the memories of the wounds he inflicted upon the spirit and soul of so many are still fresh"

Occupation with Christ through prioritizing the Word of God on a daily basis will send those memories in oblivion:

Phi 3:13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
Phi 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Rom 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

"God will forgive us our anger, our lack of forgiveness and our righteous indignation."

Then why is you think He shouldn't or won't forgive CHS and the Leaders of GGWO?

"Besides, unless we speak up, speak out and speak often, CHS and GGWO are free to continue to damage souls"

Souls are damaged when there is a lack of intake of The Word of God, this is life in general. Souls are being damaged around the world, inside churches and in the secular relm. Are you lifting up Christ to restore the damaged souls? Or do you prefer to whine and cry about how wounded you are. Roberta, we've all been wounded, it's part of our identification with Christ as we are conformed into His image. We just cast all our cares upon Him and keep moving forward.

"I will never stop walking arund the walls of this place, obeying Joshua's commands...we will continue till the walls of GGWO fall."

This ain't the Old Testament and GGWO is part of the Body of Christ not the ememiy of Isreal.

"They must fall so the captives can be free."

You know better than this kind of nonsense, backbitting, slander, maligning, gossip and evil reports will never set any captives free. Only the Word of God taught line upon line, precept upon precept, from the Full Council will set people free.

jim_buckley

08-26-2006, 07:34 PM

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

"David was chatised and he repented."

Yes, he repented as you say and then was chastised, but by who? It wasn't by a bunch of wounded soul in Israel. I don't even recall reading anything about how the people of Israel felt about David's sin. I don't think they had a say in it. Let me see if I can remember, oh yes, it was God who sent His man to confront David. God and His man, let me say that again for your edification, God and His chosen man. Not God and the wounded of the flock, who somewhere at sometime were offended by David, who wanted revenge. Maybe your Bible reads different, maybe that's why your wounded and chose to let your wounds fester instead of letting them heal through The Word of God and a Life in Christ.

"BTW, in regard to repentance if you change your mind your body will follow. Bring forth deeds worthy of repentance. All that kinda thing, etc."

You are caught between two dispensation, there will be confusion.

"Have you read:
the Martin Report?
The Betsy Court Trial?
The testimonies on carlstevens.org?"

No, I don't have to, they are irrelevant . They only speak of a man after the flesh and not of one who is in Christ. Please understand the point, if those reports are true, I don't know and I don't care, they are attacking a member of the Body of Christ. If members of the Body bite and devour one another there is no testimony to Glorify Christ. The world laughs and mocks Christianity for this display in the public form.

Gal 6:10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

orangetwopay

08-26-2006, 08:50 PM

no, jim, sorry. the world doesn't mock Christianity because we rightfully take on a man who defrauds the body of Christ for his own ends, who knowingly alters the meaning and scope of scripture for his own ends, who actively attacks and destroys those who don't agree with him (and has succesfully programmed individuals like YOU to be his apologists).

that's not why the world hates Christians.

the world hates Christians because we come up with stuff like this:

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2006/08/put-on-full-armor-of-god-in-bed.html

you are espousing the same jackhole mentality that has left child molesters entrenched in the priesthood of catholic churches for decades upon decades. the same mentality that foolishly drops the pants and grabs the ankles for a MAN.

it is THAT, exactly THAT sort of thing that makes the body of Christ mocked by the world. that we willingly go with these utter wackjobs instead of thinking with the brains God gave us.

(Message edited by OrangeTwoPay on August 26, 2006)

shat_happens

08-26-2006, 09:12 PM

"Wounded people are generally bleeding, in a lot of pain and not very happy abput it. Reality, Jim? CHS is a dangerous man...and the memories of the wounds he inflicted upon the spirit and soul of so many are still fresh...God will forgive us our anger, our lack of forgiveness and our righteous indignation.

Besides, unless we speak up, speak out and speak often, CHS and GGWO are free to continue to damage souls. I will never stop walking arund the walls of this place, obeying Joshua's commands...we will continue till the walls of GGWO fall. "

Fact of the matter is, we rape, hurt, wound, molest (and another other key word you can come up with), God all the time and yet he still loves and forgive us!

Thank God He doesn't boo-hoo and say that the wounds we caused Him are just too fresh!

We need to get it in your heads that GOD IS IN CONTROL! GGWO can do what it does only because God let it happen! No other reason!

That isn't to say that people can't speak out, because that too is going to happen if God so wills it!

jim_buckley

08-26-2006, 10:16 PM

orangetwopay

You first have to know Christ to manifest him. You bear witness against yourself that you fall short in both respects.

shat_happens

"because that too is going to happen if God so wills it!"

If God wills to allow it to happen, which apparently He has.

forte

08-26-2006, 10:31 PM

james,

In regard to the Martin Report, The Betsy Court Trial and carlstevens.org you said, "They only speak of a man after the flesh and not of one who is in Christ."

Sorry bub. wrong answer.

orangetwopay

08-26-2006, 10:45 PM

ok oracle

you tell me where i'm bearing witness, since you know me so well. i'll bear witness that you want to cover known sin. i haven't seen that you "know Christ" or "manifest Him" any more than you "know carl" and "manifest him." you got all the right MBC&S answers... i'm sure you know all of the exhortations of scripture regarding doing justice, right?

the basic fact of the matter here - apart from any formal or semantic styles - is that you want to defend this guy who has not answered for the actual consequences of his actions (yes, there are consequences EVEN if sin is covered, and you know that as well as any one here), while all that many on FN want to do is make sure his organization and heresies can no longer damage people. that's all. you can go on and on about how people say what they say, and you can use SPIRITUAL truths in an attempt to cover PHYSICAL truths, but the fact is that there are real consequences. many live out their lives in the wake of those consequences.

jim_buckley

08-26-2006, 10:54 PM

forte

"Sorry bub. wrong answer."

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know those reports covered any of the 39 points of the real CHS. Which of the 39 points in any of the reports did you find most edifying?

But in a sense you are correct. I should have said: They only speak about a man's flesh. You know what I mean from all your intense study of the Word. You've come across the part where it says the new nature of the believer can't sin and the old nature can't do nothing but sin. I'm sure you know this, it is milk of the Word stuff.

So the fore mentioned reports speak of a man in his new nature according to you?

shat_happens

08-26-2006, 11:06 PM

if this is the case, then why bother even having prisons? i mean all they have to do is quote that verse and they can be back out raping kids and robbing people?

The flesh is still judged by earthly laws, you break them you must pay for your crimes!

forte

08-26-2006, 11:28 PM

Insult all you want.
Are you here to tell us what a wonderful man of God CHS is and how wrong anyone is for thinking ill of his twisted ways which he painstakingly taught and passed down to others?

How about those who are using his twisted legecy and what's left of his feeble body to further themselves in the building of the ministry?
Are you here to defend them too?

Would you care to defend Hitler while you're at it?

whatsup

08-26-2006, 11:29 PM

Jim Buckley, your problem is that you are more spiritual than God Himself. You are not real, you are like a plastic "Christian" doll...pull the string and it spouts off nice sounding bible verses that deny all the reality of people's pain and their human side. Is that what Jesus was like when He was on earth? Quite the opposite.
I cannot BELIEVE that you said the Martin report, the court trial reports, and the testimonies online (from members of the BODY OF CHRIST, Jim B) are IRRELEVANT. Right there you lost any scrap of credibility with me, not that I was impressed much before that anyway.
You need to get your head out of your behind and live in the real world, not some hyperspiritual stupor that you seem to be stuck in. God is gentle and forgiving and kind, but that does not mean that He smiles benignly on everything a Christian does. He is also just and disciplines His own, and turns over tables in the temple and gets ANGRY at hypocrisy and sin. He says it is better for a millstone to be around the neck of anyone who causes His little ones to stumble. How many have CHS and GGWO caused to stumble? It is so obvious they are under God's chastisement, yet you continute to spout your sanctimonious drivel. Wake up

jim_buckley

08-26-2006, 11:34 PM

shat_happens

"The flesh is still judged by earthly laws, you break them you must pay for your crimes!"

I agree. But if there is no crime the courts don't belong in the local assembly. Our freedoms are being reduced almost daily as it is. I don't think anyone here is advocating a government controlled Church.

1Co 6:1 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
1Co 6:4 So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?
1Co 6:5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,
1Co 6:6 but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?
1Co 6:7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
1Co 6:8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

There is much wisdom in this passage.

dancer

08-26-2006, 11:34 PM

Hey Jim what does the bible say about covering up sin for a brother and we continue to do so what will happen to that brother?

As a born again Christian who is marked by GGWO I have a funny feeling you and your so called friends have zero trouble applying these verses only to the likes of the ole man. I am a born again Christian, who accepted Christ as a child. I believe that Christ died for all, and that includes myself, Carl, Thomas, Jim, etc al. But as much as I sinned and done wrong I am accountable for what I done wrong. I pay the price as well as do my children and love ones.

My own family believes the lies of this cult. My own mother decided not to have anything to do with my son because of my sin and the little bs that she has been getting from balmer. He is 3 months old. Carl s children, grandchildren and great grandchildren pay a price for what he did.

Such is life. You want to live by the idea there is some way to avoid this by talking such bs as our position in the scheme of heaven. Go blow a cop away and say: but Jesus died for me.

Be gone troll, your proof you weirdo's don't operate in realty. At least I am man enough to say I commited a sin and have asked God to forgive me. Think CHS can admit he commited adultry? I hate what I did. CHS believes because of who he is on this earth he is ok not to. I say the book says otherwise. That is some milk for you.

Confess your sins to one another so....

shat_happens

08-26-2006, 11:48 PM

"I agree. But if there is no crime the courts don't belong in the local assembly. Our freedoms are being reduced almost daily as it is. I don't think anyone here is advocating a government controlled Church. "

what exactly does a government controlled church have to do with anything? you're trying to justify your ideas based on something that isn't even in the conversation!

if someone molests a child, you call the cops, not the local pastor! it doesn't matter who the molester was or what church they did or didn't go to, you simply call the cops, and they deal with it! how exactly is that a government controlled church?

jim_buckley

08-27-2006, 12:00 AM

dancer

"Hey Jim what does the bible say about covering up sin for a brother and we continue to do so what will happen to that brother?"

Can you tell me?

"But as much as I sinned and done wrong I am accountable for what I done wrong."

How many times have you received mercy along with your forgiveness?

"You want to live by the idea there is some way to avoid this by talking such bs as our position in the scheme of heaven. Go blow a cop away and say: but Jesus died for me."

You are confusing Church matters with criminal matters. You are also confusing local assembly matters with outside interference matters.

"Be gone troll, your proof you weirdo's don't operate in realty."

Maybe you've gone around the floor one to many times dancer.

"At least I am man enough"

What is your real name?

"Think CHS can admit he commited adultry?"

I don't know, or care for that matter. I don't have to walk in his shoes before God. We each walk alone before God, no one can hold our hand.

"CHS believes because of who he is on this earth he is ok not to."

How do you know he hasn't confessed his sin(s) before God. Even disgruntled and wounded ex-members of GGWO don't believe that confession is open to the public, do they? When you confess your sins do you gather around the Church to publically confess? Or is it privately in shame and humiliation?

"That is some milk for you."

No sir, that was pure dung!

"Confess your sins to one another so...."

Did you grow up in a Pentecostal Church? I don't think you get much support with that one.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

08-27-2006, 12:06 AM

Jim,

I am not wounded and I am not 'caught between two dispensations'. I do not buy into dispensational Darbyism, he is a heretic who harmed the church with his garbage. Your psycho babble is amusing. You are confused. So, are you sitting at the feet of Schaller still?

You are a modern day Gnostic living in the spirit world...just add a little weed and you would be where you need to be!

BTW, the context of the Isaiah passage you mentioned in another post is meant as an insult to the Jews; not a doctrinal passage for a pattern of learning. Funny how you use that as 'foundational truth'. Just more bible babble by a novice with the Scriptures.

Regarding David did not a real person expose him? Even though all his court was covering for him? Are we not prophet priests and kings? We are in a New and Better Covenant. I left many years ago and I enjoy life, family and Christian fellowship in a church with other believers. I do not have to strive to please God as you seem to have to.

The real issue is that you do not know what the Bible teaches. The truth is you are weak and wounded and fear keeps you from reading the truth because it will confirm what the Spirit is bearing witness to you in your heart.

Dialogue with you is similar to a dialogue with a Jehovah Witness...alot of parroting with no context or substence. Grace to you my brother.

jim_buckley

08-27-2006, 12:15 AM

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

Some food for thought.

Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation.

Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.

1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.

1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";
1Co 3:20 and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."

2Co 11:19 For you, being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly.

Jam 3:13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

08-27-2006, 12:19 AM

Jim B.,

A few thoughts for you:

Regarding Darbyism and the chosen people of God, the Dispensational church in America has failed to claim their birthright in Christ. And, because of their theological- political activism Israel refers to the American Bible belt as their security belt.

In Christ, we see the fullfillment of the promise to Abraham - in you all nations will be blessed. The earthly Israel was a shadow and a type of the better things to come. Is not the church now God's Holy nation? Palestine is now as relevant to believers today as worshipping in the temple. The Old is removed with a New and better Covenant. The former things have passed away. Types, pictures, symbols and shadows.

Israel was sprinkled with the blood of young bulls on Mt. Sinai by Moses to seal the Covenant promises. The church was sprinkled with the blood of Christ on Mt. Calvary by Jesus to seal the New and better Covenant promises. He removed the Old to establish the New. The veil being torn in the temple confirms this principle. The Old is removed with a New and better Covenant. The former things have passed away. Types, pictures, symbols and shadows.

The church is to spread to the corners of the earth with the Great Comission as Isreal was to spread through Palestine with a similar commission. Isreal conquered with the sword. The church conquers with the Word. The Old is removed with a New and better Covenant. The former things have passed away. Types, pictures, symbols and shadows.

Also, the relevance of the temple to being the dwelling place of God was a type and a shadow of the better things to come, all fullfilled in Christ. The church is now the dwelling place of God, He lives in us. The Old is removed with a New and better Covenant. The former things have passed away. Types, pictures, symbols and shadows.

Has HE not established a New and better Covenant? If Israel is still God's chosen people then the Dispensationalists should sprinkle themselves with the blood of bulls and goats and wait for their Savior. Why? Because, they are trampling the blood of Christ under their feet and making His work powerless to create and establish the New and Better Covenant. The only chosen people are those who call on the Name of the LORD. We who were not the people of God are now the people of God. We who were far off were brought near by the blood of Christ. The Old is removed with a New and better Covenant. The former things have passed away. Types, pictures, symbols and shadows.

The Dispensationalists are similar to the Judaizers of Paul's day. Perpetuating the Old Covenant and not seeing the New and better Covenant established by Christ Himself. They fail to see that the Old is removed with a New and better Covenant. They fail to see that the former things have passed away. Types, pictures, symbols and shadows. May all God's family claim their birthright.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

08-27-2006, 12:23 AM

good night Jim and God's speed to you.

cordell

08-27-2006, 12:27 AM

Oh my. What a situation we have here.

My dear brother Mr. Buckley,

CHS once stated in one of his books that "God wants us to have absolutely nothing to do with the old law."

What do you think CHS meant by 'old law' and do you agree with that statement of his?

Steve McVey of Grace Walk ministries is posed this question:
Aren’t we still supposed to try and keep the Ten Commandments today?

He answers:

The answer to this question is "No." From the time that God gave the commandments to Moses in codified form He knew that humanity was incapable of keeping them. But, God gave the commandments to mankind anyway that they might drive him to his knees in frustration and cause him to seek God Himself. Even under the Old Covenant it was the desire of God that human beings have a personal relationship with Him (Exodus 13:7-16; Psalm 37:4; Jeremiah 9:23-24). Today God wants the focus of the New Covenant believer to be Christ as Life not the codified Law.

What say you brother? Do you think McVey is sound in his understanding?

jim_buckley

08-27-2006, 12:33 AM

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

Where did you get your understanding of dispensationalism? By the way, The Church doesn't have to "claim Her birthright", She already is the Body of Christ and shares in His Birthright:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

The Church needs to "realize" this not claim it. That sounds Pentecostal, "name it and claim it".

In the future The Body of Christ will become the Bride of Christ and share in His glory through eternity. But you already know this.

dancer

08-27-2006, 12:46 AM

I will answer your questions but bet you won't keep this up long if you really believe the word of God. You will be convicted by the Holy Spirit if you are.

1.Yes covering up overt sin for the sake of covering it up will allow the person to hurt himself and cause pain to the church of God, and will also hurt the person. We are to confront the person and the church is to help restore the person. That is a basic understanding. You want key verses and play by play go listen to Charles Stanley I think you know them well. I will not entertain we are to allow somebody to go unchecked in sin forever.

2. Endless mercy from my father in heaven and not that much here on earth. I am seperated from both my family and wife, of which I do believe they (GGWO)had a major part of. That includes efforts from 1995 on. When a Pastor puts a fist up to stop a marriage he is not operating in the Holy Spirit.

3. We live a society with morals and laws. I am not confusing church with the state. This website, my life, your life etc is not owned by GGWO or for that matter the church invisiable. We live in a very present world. God through his prophets and aposteles spoke to us concerning these things. He does not want us to live in a mindset where we ignore the morals of our society. If you want to remove yourself from the world than find a monstary and then you have the church and society as one, otherwise you need to live by standards that include destroying families.

Also a local assembly never has a veto over the bible and accountability. Your creepy as heck if you think Thomas Schallar and Carl Stevens or for that matter John Hadley and like have veto over the standards of the book.

4.Neil Patrick Carrick. I worked for GGWO for years. My family has been devasted by this so called church. I have been marked by this cult. I am not interested in anybody who cannot accept that they are a cult. I love the people, but I do not want to just accept bad doctrine because I need to find peace. My peace is with Christ. Not a foolish bunch of doctrines.

Yes I do believe that if I am a Pastor of a church that I am accountable to a church. If I sin against the entire church and allow myself be called its Pastor and live in sin than I have a problem.

I have asked CHS several times. He says has no reason to repent. That includes money, sex, and other reasons. I saw with my own eyes some of the things he did. I know what he did with many people including help destroy the marriages of people like Kent Sutorius, almost the Byrnes, etc. he played a part in people commiting suicide and he didn't so much as say sorry to their familes.

The same is true of other GGWO leadership. I can story after story of Pastor accepting that destoying families is acceptable. It is sin. You cannot encourage divorce, suicide, and sometimes emotional and physical abuse and call it the love of God. It is sin. I saw a family torn asunder by CHS. Not mine but one who had little children, a sick mother and a fragile father. It was sin.

I grew up Southern Baptist. I was ordained as such, and for that matter been accepted by the Evangelical Lutheran Church, Evangelical Protestant Church, and the Evangelical Free Church.

From American Baptist to Unitarian Universalist I don't know any who really know the details of GGWO would call them anything other than cult'ish

They are off, they confuse favors for grace, and they do not care if they help kill off families with children in the middle.

To this day CHS, Marr, Schallar, Hadley, and Love have not returned my calls. My children go their church. If they are living by church law they should have taken every effort to restore my family. They did not. They help pay for our divorce on paper, in court, and spiritually. Butch Veader actually told me they had every right to help pay for it. I love Butch but he is wrong.

lmao

08-27-2006, 12:54 AM

I am becoming more convinced every day that every false doctrine and every over emphasized doctrine at gg was to protect chs from accountability. This muddying of the waters between positional and experiential truth is an example. Of course we as believers from the death row inmate to the oval office are perfect in Christ, but even then we will reap what we sow. Accountability is part of the church's job. God gave qualifications for elders that we are not to ignore. If a pastor preaches a pretty good message much of the time and lives in sin over and over, then he is the wolf in sheep's clothing. He misrepresents his message. The verse says that your sin will find you out. That seems to mean that it will become public knowledge. It has in the case of chs. I am not saying that chs is not saved.

Paul wrote about confronting Peter after Peter had repented. So much for covering a transgression. John publicly marked Diotrephes in 3 John.

jim_buckley

08-27-2006, 01:17 AM

dancer

"You want key verses and play by play go listen to Charles Stanley"

No sir, I'll go to The Word of God.

"I am seperated from both my family and wife"

I'm really sorry to hear that, I have not yet had to face that trial. You and your wife and family will be in our prayers.

"you need to live by standards that include destroying families."

Unfortunately there are few laws in any State against destroying families, on the contrary I sometimes think they promote it.

"Also a local assembly never has a veto over the bible and accountability. Your creepy as heck if you think Thomas Schallar and Carl Stevens or for that matter John Hadley and like have veto over the standards of the book."

I never even came close to implying anything like that let alone saying it.

Look man, I see you have had it rough, but we all have our trials and afflictions. This is not a time to dwell on the past or things we have lost. It is a great time to be alone with Christ, to focus on Him, cast all your cares upon Him and learn His unsurpassing love for you. He kicks the props out from underneath us one by one until we have to lean on and trust Him for everything. We cannot allow ourselves to be the lies of the Devil. He wants us to believe all of our problems are because of this person or that person, when it is really Christ who is behind all the details of our life. Neil, look up and find rest for your soul. He's loving you and only has the best desires toward you.

jim_buckley

08-27-2006, 01:44 AM

cordell

"The answer to this question is "No."

I agree:

Rom 3:21-31, Rom 4:13-16, Rom 5:20,21, 6:14, Plus many more verses. It is an excellent study.

"God gave the commandments to mankind anyway that they might drive him to his knees in frustration and cause him to seek God Himself"

God never gave The Law to mankind, He gave it strictly to the nation of Israel. But it is a school master pointing to Christ.

"Today God wants the focus of the New Covenant believer to be Christ as Life not the codified Law."

Yes I agree with this statement:

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

"Do you think McVey is sound in his understanding?"

I honestly don't know of the man, but what you have quoted I agree with and think he is sound in this area, but I'm sure he says a lot more so I can't completely answer about his understanding in general, but in this area yes I agree. When men of God consistently point us to Christ, lift Him up, exalt Him, and make Him the center of our occupation, it is worth our careful attention. The spiritual life is about The Person and Work of Christ and His Grace towards us undeserving sinners.

cordell

08-27-2006, 01:56 AM

Mr.Buckley,

Since you seem to agree with both CHS and Steve McVey on their statements concerning the law of God, can you explain what you think "antinomian" means?

Can you also explain why you think that neither you or CHS are antinomian?

jim_buckley

08-27-2006, 02:07 AM

cordell

"Since you seem to agree with both CHS and Steve McVey on their statements concerning the law of God, can you explain what you think "antinomian" means?

Can you also explain why you think that neither you or CHS are antinomian?"

No, it's not about me or CHS, it's about Christ. Again, your questions are only assumptions and speculation, but brought like a master troll.

cordell

08-27-2006, 02:30 AM

It is about you right now, because you're the self proclaimed subject matter expert, aren't you sonnyboy?

There is no assumption and speculation at all--I am asking you an uncomfortable question which you are avoiding because you have no clue what 'antinomian' means--and you have no further clue why those statements made by CHS and McVey make them antinomian--and by your agreement you're one as well.

So you worked security at Lenox? One of those thickheaded bullies that turned their heads while Carl drove in and out to carry out his "counselling" duties? You're an accomplice.

jim_buckley

08-27-2006, 02:38 AM

cordell

Are you man enough to tell me your real name?

cordell

08-27-2006, 02:49 AM

You're kidding me right? You think I'm hiding behind an anonymous moniker? Do a little work on the "search" function and you'll find out who I am. If you can't figure it out by searching go to www.carlstevens.org (http://www.carlstevens.org) and read my story there.

On the other hand you're probably too self-righteous to do that aren't you--and you're afraid of reading the "unapproved poison" here on FN to know that I've been posting here for over two years. Which of your "pastahs" have to give you permission to be on here?

Now, am I supposed to be trembling or something?

whatsup

08-27-2006, 02:55 AM

LOL

jim_buckley

08-27-2006, 03:16 AM

cordell

"You think I'm hiding behind an anonymous moniker?"

I didn't think you were man enough.

cordell

08-27-2006, 03:23 AM

I didn't think you had more brain than a cauliflower to figure it out. Why should I do your work for you? How does it feel to be the only one on FN who doesn't know who I am?

So are you in the Florida refugee camp or the Tacoma refugee camp?

jim_buckley

08-27-2006, 03:31 AM

cordell

Gutless!

dancer

08-27-2006, 03:35 AM

cordell

08-27-2006, 03:35 AM

Witless, clueless and mindless!

Strike three bozoboy!

Now, now don't get in the flesh!

anon_brief

08-27-2006, 03:37 AM

Jim,

I'm curious to know how you happened to come to FN. If you'd prefer not to answer, that's certainly your right.

cordell

08-27-2006, 03:41 AM

Find out who Cordell is here (http://www.sonypictures.com/tv/shows/walker/stars_norris.html)

dancer

08-27-2006, 03:42 AM

Cordell the heck with the past I will come down there with you in a few. I smell palm trees. Maybe the kind that get big palmetto bugs in them.

cordell

08-27-2006, 03:46 AM

Cordell:

a. came to the Woolwich Wiscasset Church in 1972
b. was one of the first Graduates of NESB
c. was a missionary pastor to a European country
d. likes bean and cheese tacos and Lustau Cream Sherry
e. was baptized by immersion on the same night as Tom Schaller
f. all of the above

jim_buckley

08-27-2006, 04:04 AM

anon_brief

Purely by accident. I was astonished to find the carnality here. To run a member of the Body of Christ down, no matter what they have done, reveals not only a lack of integrity but also a lack of spirituality. Some of these people I actually knew. They had a heart after God at one time but lost their focus. Now some whine and cry about some man or organization that did them wrong and won't rest until they get their revenge. There is no conception that Christ Himself put these things in their path. Any doctrine that they have learned, and there was some good Biblical teaching there, has gone out the window. If the wounded are seeking after Christ they will have a hard time finding Him here.

One thing I have learned over the years is that God will keep bringing us around the mountain until we face the thing that He has placed before us. It's better to face it now and grow in our dependency upon Him than put it off for more intensified heat heat later. Kicking and screaming or nice and easy, but He will conform us into the image of His Son. Even if He has to take us home to do it. He lets us do the choosing.

dancer

08-27-2006, 04:05 AM

ok jim either one that is.

I am no prophet so how does the new story go?

Its 1:10 est. BTW. Just a few of the words from the paper that is out in a few hours.

Read the story at: http://www.berkshireeagle.com

By Nicole Sequino
Berkshire Eagle Staff
Nineteen years ago, the Rev. Carl Henry Stevens Jr. left Lenox, the
headquarters of his The Bible Speaks evangelical empire, after two
courts ordered him to repay a Lenox woman $5.5 million that he had
persuaded her to donate to his ministry.

dancer

08-27-2006, 04:16 AM

CHS exposed? I can't do justice for the families hurt. But I can call every single paper in every single town that GGWO has a church in, and just simply tell the truth over and over again. Think I won't? You would not believe how cheap a press feed is that goes to 1000's of papers and how easy it is to locate interested writers. It blows my mind. Frank listened, Nicole worked hard, and frankly I see a lot more coming. Never in my wildest dreams did I see part of my call as being a voice for those hurt. Not much will shut me up. I will keep speaking on this to the day I die. I say we need to see as much as we can on who CHS is and was. I learn something everyday.

GGWO could stop the bad press, all it has to do is act like a church that follows after Christ and really does care about its families.

For the record Jim, Christ has done great by me,humans especially the ones in Baltimore they can't impress me as caring. They even hate kids.

cordell

08-27-2006, 04:21 AM

Someone just like Buckley (http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=37559#POST37559)

jim_buckley

08-27-2006, 05:05 AM

dancer

Try to understand, reading that article or any other will not add one iota to my spiritual growth. It will not change my mind about a member of the Body of Christ. Who can bring a charge against God's elect?

Let me tell you a short story. Back in 1988 I asked my wife to marry me. We were both in the Bible College in Baltimore so my wife wanted to do the right thing and have counseling with three Pastors which was recommended by GGWO. I was against it but my wife was fairly new in the Lord so I went along with it for her sake. The three Pastors advised her not to marry me. Then two more Pastors form across the Atlantic in her country also advised her not to marry me. They advised us to separate for 6 months, her in her country and me in Baltimore. This I agreed to against my will but for her sake. During that time she broke off our engagement twice. My only recourse was to continually lift up Christ and fill her with Finished Work Truth. She was young and scared. She wanted to Glorify Christ and make the right decision. The weight of the advice of five Pastors weighed heavily on her. Christ and doctrine against five spiritual men of God. At one point during our seperation she determined she wasn't going to hear another negative thing about me. To me it was a bold step of faith as well as a joy of relief. After the six months she came to America and were married by CHS in the supermarket. We took a step of faith believing that our marriage was in the perfect will of God. Many didn't expect it to last but we have been married happily for seventeen years and have five children and still going strong in Doctrine.

The point of this story. I could be bitter towards the five pastors for the grief and heartache they caused me and my wife or I could see them as members of Christ's Body advising us as they thought best. But the trial was ours, not theirs. God was teaching us to look to Him and no one else for guidance. It was a step of faith. The five had nothing personal against me, I knew them all and they all new me. Christ had put it in their hearts to give a thumbs down. But through the Word, prayer for guidance and faith to step out and walk before God He showed Himself faithful. What a man or an organization has done in the past or is doing now is no concern of mine. I walk before the Lord and try and make the best decisions I can. It's before Him I stand or fall, as with any other believer.

Our trials are from the Lord, don’t get caught up in earthly affairs:

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

BTW, if you put 5.5 or 18 million , whatever it was, in front of me it would make my mouth water and you could be reading about me in Sunday’s paper. We can only know the depths of the wickedness of our hearts when God reveals it to us. And by His mercy He only reveals a little at a time lest we become overwhelmed.

Forget about it Christ is on the throne.

jim_buckley

08-27-2006, 05:13 AM

cordell

"Witless, clueless and mindless!"

I still can't place you, these could be anybody.

daved

08-27-2006, 10:41 AM

In his post on Saturday, August 26, 2006 at 8:17 P.M. Jim Buckly wrote:

>>>
You know better than this kind of nonsense, backbitting, slander, maligning, gossip and evil reports will never set any captives free.

Only the Word of God taught line upon line, precept upon precept, from the Full Council will set people free.

Jim,

Where does "the Word of God taught line upon line, precept upon precept, from the Full Council" say that God's name is Yahweh?

GGWO teaches that God's name is "Yahweh", but where is the name Yahweh preserved in any extant Hebrew text?

On Sunday August 6, 2006, during his PM message Pastor John Leonard mentioned that when "LORD" [in all capital letters] is found in the King James Bible, that is "Yahweh".

Again the question is asked:
Where does "the Word of God taught line upon line, precept upon precept, from the Full Council" say that God's name is Yahweh?

Jim on Satirday, August 26, 2006 at 8:17 P.M. you wrote, in responce to Dancer:

>>>
No sir, I'll go to The Word of God.
>>

Please feel free to go to the Word of God for your answer as to where the name "Yahweh" is found.

Daved

dancer

08-27-2006, 12:20 PM

jb interesting story. But frankly it doesn't sound real in aspects. In fact if it is real it all the more reason not to be defending people who did the deeds. Also there is a big difference between counsel and fists and threats.

I am not bitter. I move on. If I didn't I would die. But for you to use your story or anything to defend people who destroy families makes me question your sincerity. If you believed that the family is sacred and God ordains it, and that children are a blessing yoy would never defend children being hurt. When you talk of who these people are in Christ you miss the point. I believe many people are saved, and they are sincere in their salvation, but their sins are dangerous to the point of hurting a child to the point of real harm.

If you are a believer you should be compelled to helped to restore the body of christ in all of its members. Nothing you said implies such. you are defending people in moving the target from their actions as leaders to who they are in Christ.

There are times in my life when I would have died for CHS. There is not much I would not have done for Thomas Schaller or for that matter any of the people at GGWO. If Tom called me up today I would certainly listen to him. Scott Robinson would look anybody in the face and tell them I am sincere about reconciliation and the love of Christ.

But both parties need to be in the same spirit. One can't hate the other and have an agenda of doing something ungodly.

GGWO, Tom Schaller, my inlaws and maybe my ex wife know the situation they have put me in with my children. They don't care. They just call me crazy and say things to my kids. Thats real Godly.

BTW what color is your hair JB?

iris

08-27-2006, 01:59 PM

Jim Buckley, tell greetings to your wonderful wife A from the other side of the Atlantic! Five children, wow, congratulations! I've been wondering where you were, in Pittsburgh? We used to play volleyball together in N gymnasium. I didn't know about those Five Pastors, hopefully my husband wasn't one of them.

cordell

08-27-2006, 02:26 PM

So we find that Jimmyboybuckley is another of those "line upon line" quoting guys. Sometime ago I remember another discussion concerning GGWO's aberrant abuse of this passage (you have to read three or four posts down to Anova's 'wow' moment):

Cordell's real name! (http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=150913#POST150913)

Here's a correct exegesis, not one to favor CHS! (http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=151547#POST151547)

(Message edited by cordell on August 27, 2006)

minutus

08-27-2006, 02:55 PM

Good to hear your family is doing well, Jim.

david_munson

08-27-2006, 03:56 PM

Buckley"Try to understand, reading that article or any other will not add one iota to my spiritual growth. It will not change my mind about a member of the Body of Christ. Who can bring a charge against God's elect?"
---
Who can bring a charge?
How about Carl Stevens?He brought more charges against God's elect than anyone here on factnet ever has and i witnessed a great deal of it.
So,
don't try to tell us that we shouldn't expose this wolf like the Word tells us to.

Have you ever heard carl openly repent of anything?
No you have not and I know it for a fact.

You say that people post in bitterness.
I say you are sadly mistaken.
Some do but many more others post to warn the body so that they can avoid being used by these wolves that you so love to protect.

Are you willing to sacrafice the health and well being of the body to defend the wrong doings of some man who has preached abusive and manipulative doctrine in order to control people and gain loyalty?

Good luck with that one.

}

lana

08-27-2006, 04:23 PM

Buckley, The "body' of Christ are all people who are born again, not just GGWO! What about a Jeffery Dahmer, a Ted Bundy? Do we move on without knowing what they did and give it all to God? I don't think so. CHS is hiding in his little world of make believe without consequences for his sins and coverups. They will be found out.

daved

08-27-2006, 04:42 PM

David Munson wrote:

>>>
Have you ever heard Carl openly repent of anything?
No you have not and I know it for a fact.
>>>

Dave,

Actually I was involved in a discussion with Carl Stevens on The Grace Hour, [probable before 2000 A.D.] when He acknowledged to the entire listening audience that he believed he had been in error to have taught for 30-35 years that God's name was "Jehovah". [I assume that Pastor Carl Stevens believed at the time he preached them, that his messages were all anointed by Jehovah. Messages from the 70's are considered classics, when they are replayed on Wednesdays on The Grace Hour. Occasionally the listening audience will hear Pastor Carl Stevens honor the name Jehovah, during the replays of his messages from the 70' and 80's.]

I assume that Pastor Carl Steven's admission that he believed that he had been in error for 30-35 years, when he taught that God's name was Jehovah, could be considered to be an act of repentance.

Of course the question now arises, has Pastor Carl Stevens been in error for the last 10-15 years during which he has taught that God's name is "Yahweh".

The name "Yahweh" is found in no extant Hebrew text, and appears to be quite speculative.

Hebrew scholars who post on b-hebrew in 2006 are questioning the punctuation "Yahweh", that Gesenius proposed in the 19th century, and which is said dogmatically to be "the proper name of the God of Israel" in the Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon.

Daved

cordell

08-28-2006, 12:51 AM

"Christ and doctrine against five spiritual men of God."

Now that is INTERESTING non-thinking isn't it?

Here are some spiritual "throne words":

Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand...

Men of God against God. Isn't that something.

cordell

08-28-2006, 12:59 AM

Isn't this a lot more simple and a lot less invasive into the hearts, minds and intentions of consenting adults?

All persons who are able with judgment to give their consent may marry, except within the limits of blood relationship forbidden by Scripture, and such marriages are valid before God in the eyes of the church. But no marriage can be fully and securely Christian in spirit or in purpose unless both partners are committed to a common Christian faith and to a deeply shared intention of building a Christian home. Evangelical Christians should seek as partners in marriage only persons who hold in common a sound basis of evangelical faith...

And the role of the church?

 Marriage for the Christian has religious as well as civil significance. The distinctive contribution of the church in performing the marriage ceremony is to affirm the divine institution of marriage; to invoke God's blessing upon those who enter into the marital relationship in accordance with his word; to hear the vows of those who desire to be married; and to assure the married partners of God's grace within their new relationship.

Works for me.

rocketman

08-28-2006, 04:55 AM

Here's Jim's idea of a an real understanding of the Bible.

Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation.

Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.

1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you thinks that he is wise in this age, he must become foolish, so that he may become wise.

1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";
1Co 3:20 and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."

2Co 11:19 For you, being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly.

Jam 3:13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom.

- Wow, Jim, you know how to use a concordance -

rocketman

08-28-2006, 05:07 AM

rocketman

08-28-2006, 05:58 AM

Ok Buckley... hold onto your hats boy... yah hats.. You are so convoluted with scriptural quotations you couldn't think decisivly out of a paper bag..

(do I cross the street or do I not... what does the Bible have to say?)

I am Personally.. yes it's just me, no one else.. I am Personally sick of people who think quoting scripture that OTHERS teach them is the way to make someone else LIVE. Do some Real study, bub, Don't buy the crap someone else feeds you and call it "understanding the Word"

You can quote Bible til little tiny birdies drive cars and you'll never EVER know the Word of God.

I learned Bible. I could quote you what Carlie told me. He twists, misquotes, quotes things out of context, and then stupifys his congregation with psychobabble and a half baked version of Asian mysticism mingled with scripture and then tells you ...."You yes YOU are chosen by God to be Here.. and you yes you will be discarded by God if you stray from the truth."

Here's some Bible for you, you sanctimonious Bible thumping neophyte...

This is a quote from the Man.. Not just the pre-crucifixion Man Christ Jesus... but the Glorified, Sitting-at-the-Right-Hand-of-the-Father Jesus the Christ, His Words to the church at Ephesus

"I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance, I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have TESTED those who CLAIM to be Apostles But Are NOT and have found them FALSE. You have perseved and have endured hardshiips for my name and have not grown weary."
Rev. 2:1-3

I'll stand by that verse alone, thanks, when it comes to "delegated authority", "covering sins", "seeing people after Christ," and all that other 'don't blame me' crap CHS has fed us over the years.

Wake up... you aren't special, you may not see the rapture (although with today's politics that may yet be seen), You are just another person, working your way through this life. I hope your faith is true, that you don't think your ability to use Bible study aids makes you something grandious or that you are somehow more blest because of your piety. Your piety sucks, if you ask me, because it discounts the very heartbeat of your brothers and sisters in Christ who post... and Will post on this board. You are no Jesus.

BTW .. not that you're all bad.. even tho I don't know you, I'm glad your family is together and well.

oh... and yeah.. I'm ****edoff about being lied to for 15 years... sue me.

pekkap

08-28-2006, 08:14 AM

Hi Jim,

Do you still have a motorcycle?

God Bless,
Pekka Paunonen
Finland

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

08-28-2006, 10:24 AM

Jim Buckley,

I think you suffer from spiritual turrets. Can I get an amen from the factnet bobbleheads?

cordell

08-28-2006, 12:13 PM

"FactNet is One Thousand Percent pure evil..."
Carl Stevens

Did I get that quote right?

cordell

08-28-2006, 12:17 PM

Jim Buckley:

"Pleased to meet you,
Hope you guessed my name,
But what's puzzlin' you is
the nature of my game..."

sidethorn

08-28-2006, 12:45 PM

Carl thinks anything that doesn't line up with his own doctrine is evil. Carl thinks people who disagree with him are evil. Yet Carl thinks its perfectly okay to lie and slander those who question him. Then he twists teachings about "eternal security" into his rebound crap where he thinks he can just "repent" and repeat the same sin again and again and all is covered. Then he thinks nobody has the right to reprove him or expose him. Carl is twisting Scripture to cover up for himself and avoid accountability. Public exposure of repeated sin in the Bible is part of God's order. Look at the Pharisees and Diotrephes for starters. They were publicly exposed, while Carl thinks its a sin for anyone to expose him as he and his henchmen mislead, exploit, manipulate, divide, and slander others. Covering up for Carl Stevens is a sin!!! Let these charlatans be exposed!!! The more the better!! If this exposure stops just one person from joining Carl's cult, its all worth it!!!

cordell

08-28-2006, 05:04 PM

"Perfect Love" is the secret GGWO code word for "weapons and surveillance equipment along with big, thick, blindly obedient security guys (even after you mess with their heads and interfere with their love life) who will shoot first and ask questions later at your command"

escaped

08-28-2006, 05:07 PM

Jim Buckley! You old Dawg! leave an e-mail I will write you!

rjfernalld

08-28-2006, 05:47 PM

escaped....do I know you?

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 02:06 AM

pekkap

"Hi Jim,

Do you still have a motorcycle?"

Greetings Pekka, no I sold it last year. I hope your not buying into this carnal crap of drippy faucet and his stooges. There is not a whole lot of this around here:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Rest in Him.

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 02:10 AM

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

"Jim Buckley,

I think you suffer from spiritual turrets. Can I get an amen from the factnet bobbleheads?"

Most definitely!

sidethorn

08-29-2006, 02:12 AM

Sorry Jim, I didn't see too much of those fruits during all my years at GGWO!!!!

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 02:13 AM

lana

"What about a Jeffery Dahmer, a Ted Bundy?"

I didn't know CHS murdered anyone.

sidethorn

08-29-2006, 02:19 AM

Just because he didn't slice up someone or shoot them doesn't justify covering up for him!!!

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 02:26 AM

shat_happens

"Has anyone in or around GG that give their counsel, ever given the green light for anyone to marry?"

I really don't know.

"but what about those new to God? Those who might not have walked the same path as you, or grown as deeply as you have?"

Faith is the only answer:

Phi 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

"It’s like once we get something from God we look at others as if they are idiots and can’t get why they too aren’t getting it!? You know!?"

Or we can build up and edify the weaker believer laying our liberties aside for their sake, knowing that we were there once and what we went throught:

2Co 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
2Co 1:4 who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

This is simply applying Bible Doctrine.

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 02:36 AM

rocketman

"I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance, I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men,"

God doesn't see any believer as "wicked", He only sees them in Christ with His righteousness. Have you forgotten the Doctrine of Imputed Righteousness, or were you never taught it?

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 02:42 AM

sidethorn

"Carl thinks anything that doesn't line up with his own doctrine is evil. Carl thinks people who disagree with him are evil. Yet Carl thinks its perfectly okay to lie and slander those who question him. Then he twists teachings about "eternal security" into his rebound crap where he thinks he can just "repent" and repeat the same sin again and again and all is covered. Then he thinks nobody has the right to reprove him or expose him."

It doesn't matter what anyone thinks, what matters is what God thinks and how we ourselves, without looking horizontally, align to His thinking.

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 06:24 AM

hodeuon

" How does this correlate with the very heavy security presence in The Bible Speaks and Greater Grace World Outreach?"

As we grow in Grace and Knowledge, and as God gradually conforms us in to the image of His Son we learn to have His impersonal love toward all mankind. It's a growing process and takes time through the Word and Grace, we plug along. But as our love toward our fellow humans grows the present evil age grows more and more evil also. If we have impersonal love toward mankind it doesn't mean that mankind has impersonal love toward us. As you can see here on factnet the attitude is not far from murderous, in twenty-three years I have never seen so much HATE from professing believers. But to coin a phrase it's "character assassination". This type of attitude in this present evil age is why as prudent believers we carry (legally) or keep weapons in our homes to protect our families and possessions. This is why our country raises up a military force to protect our freedoms. Right now the terrorists don't really care how much we love them. They have an agenda. So to answer your question, CHS taught the Finished Work. He is under assault. You may say for the things he has done, maybe, from a carnal point of view, but I believe it is for the Doctrine of The Finished Work he teaches. Not all the Doctrine he teaches but The Finished Work Doctrines and positional truth. Messages the Devil hates as much as he hates Christ Himself. CHS knows this and would be very foolish not to want to protect himself in the onslaught of the battle.

"2. Carl Stevens is saved."

That is between him and God. He says he is. Who am I to judge, and how should I judge? By sight, by heresy, or by emotion? I don't think that is God's mind. I don't believe anyone could teach positional truth and not be save, to reason it out. But what does it take to be saved? Simple faith alone in Christ alone:

1Jo 5:1a Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.

What we see by sight has nothing to do with someone's salvation. If we observed the carnal Christians at Corinth by sight would we think they were saved? Yet Paul builds them up in positional truth before he exhorts and admonishes them.

"3. Carl Stevens was called to ministry."

We are all called in Christ, 1Co 1:2,26 Eph 1:18 how God does it is individual to each believer. He may use the same means with two or more believers. As young believers coming to know grace and truth, that Christ loves us despite ourselves, and in our zeal to know Him more, it is common to read about or fellowship with others who have had a long walk with God so we can have a deeper understanding of His love towards us and who He is. Even to the point of copying them and trying to live their spiritual life. It's common with teenagers, looking for a role models to imitate. But God is faithful to bring us out of their shadow and into His Son's. If through humility we don't react to His plan.

"4. Love on another. I have to think that Jesus didn’t mean for us to have no further contact with family members, ever, even if they did leave fellowship."

I agree with you on this, but I am also unfamiliar with this teaching. On the other hand, this teaching does not make one a heretic, but it would be something I would be on my knees about for guidance for my future.

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 06:27 AM

hodeuon

"5. Slander, maligning, and evil reports"

No sir, it doesn't matter to me whether the report is true or not. Now if it's a good report that builds up and edifies and encourages the Body of Christ I will receive it with joy and praise for what god has done. But if it is a negative report I want no part of it. The Kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. What does matter to me is sound Doctrine, if it becomes unsound I'll make faith decisions to move along and "shake the dust from my feet". I don't think God needs my help in correcting things. What I do believe God is looking for is men of courage to stand in pulpits and lift up Christ "line upon line, precept upon precepts" (or so I don't offend drippy faucet) "verse by verse" or "word by word" or "jot by title". Men who aren't afraid to battle in the spiritual warfare, who won't entangle themselves in everyday affairs. Men who's attitude is "for me to live is Christ and to die is gain". Do you know any men like that?

"6. The Christian Research Institute / Martin report"

Can I really believe it's about the 39 things that happened to CHS at the point of salvation that will never change throughtout all eternity? If it's not then it about a believe who is in Christ, but the author can't see him because he's "hid with Christ in God" Col 3:3. So the author writes about what he sees, the flesh of a man and his behavior, as reported by so and so, and so and so and this eyewitness observed this and that. Man, who can hear it? Do you think it unimportant that the mind of Christ tells us three times in the NT that "the just shall walk by FAITH and not by SIGHT".

"Aren’t you really saying that there is no source of dependable information from outside the ministry?"

No sir, I am saying "there is no source of dependable information from outside the" Word of God!

"7. God sent His man to chastise David, not the wounded flock.
Why do you get to judge all of us who post at Factnet as being the same, a wounded flock? How is this any different than us judging Carl Stevens as unfit for ministry?"

This is a loaded question. To discern someone is wounded is the same as discerning someone who is physically sick. You look at them and ask are you ok can I help in any way? Discerning someone's spiritual condition is by hearing the words they speak or in this case the words they write. If you don't like the word discern I'll use judge. I've judged by what I've read. The difference between me and the people you speek of is, I know there are some misguided God loving people here who would rather look unto Jesus and cast all their cares upon Him and I want to encourage them that there is more to life than things of this world. People talk about being brainwashed at GGWO, but what about the brainwashing going on in this forum? Ringleaders like drippy faucet, orangeheadedclown, spaceshot, hungryman, lunar, twostep.... are brainwashing people to cause derision in the Body of Christ. They think they have a good case and seek the weak to keep their mind's occupied with their righteous cause. Who's looking out for the weak, the suffering, the "wounded" and the one's who are so emotionally distraught they don't what to get out of bed or the house. Who's helping them to be transformed by the renewing of their mind? Who's presenting Christ? I don't see it. I discern (judge) for restoration. The ringleaders judge CHS and GGWO to tear down, destroy, hurt and seek revenge. One sweet believer thinks she's going to cause the walls to fall down like Joshua did to Jericho. But nobody loving corrected her of her error, everybody lets her carry on.

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 06:29 AM

hodeuon

There is a big difference between my judging this forum (the ringleaders and their spirit of things)and the forum judging CHS and GGWO.

"8. A local church matte"
"This is not a local church matter. This an international church matter."

What happened in the Baltimore assembly concerns only the members of that assembly. As for GGWO and it's affiliates, that is between the members of the affiliate assemblies and GGWO. Mostly all of the posts in this forums are made by exmembers, those who have escaped, got out....etc. Therefore they have forfeited not only their voice in those local assemblies but also any concerns about policy and procedure. if a friend stays with you for some period of time then decides to leave because he doesn't like the way you run your household, does he have a right to slander, malign and gossip about you to your neighbors to force you to change your ways, or have you arrested, or have you pack up and move away, or try to get your children to run away from you because he thinks your an evil man? He has no business trying to run your household. Outside interference is totally outside Divine Establishment principles.

"This an international church matter."

Yes an international affiliate assembly matter. Not a universal Body of Christ matter. If you have left you have no voice in what goes on.

"This is why Paul confronted Peter in front of everyone – because it was affecting them."

The Galatian Church was Paul's, he founded it. Peter was a guest, a visitor from Jerusalem. Peter, at first fit in as he found his new found freedom in Christ that they didn't have in Jerusalem. Then a bunch of BigWigs came down from Jerusalem and intimidated Peter into not freely eating with the Gentiles (he seperated himself). This was causing confusion to the believers in Galatia. Law vs Grace. Law + Grace = Confusion.
Thank you for bring this up, it proves my point. The Bigshots from outside the local assembly interfered with Paul's assembly and caused Peter to disrupt it and cause confusion in it. So much so that the Galatians started to go under a system of law/works in their walk with God. Paul had every right to openly rebuke Peter (an Outsider)for trying to change his teaching. Paul also had the right to rebuke HIS local assembly for leaving his teaching for another gospel. He openly called them fools under a witches spell.
1) Paul's assembly
2) Outside interference
3) Paul's teaching was compromised
4) Paul rebukes Peter for being intimidated by big shots from Jerusalem and changing his Doctrinal stance(embracing another Gospel).
5) Paul rebukes HIS congregation for turning from the truth.
6) Paul is a shepherd protecting his flock.

As a disclaimer: To Paul alone was given the mystery of The church Age. No one knew it like him, not even Peter 2 Pet 3:15,16. Men today, after studying his epistles, will never have the revelation or the illumination that he had. Men will be strong in areas of Doctrine and weak in other areas. Some will even error outside the Cardinal Doctrines. That is the weakness of the flesh. There is not one teacher today who has it all down pat. Men who have a heart after God and are answering His call desire to do the best they can as they learn total dependence on Him, but there will be some flaw(s) in their teaching. But their ministry is their's and should not be interfered with by outsiders.

"9. You made a pretty quick conclusion from OrangeTwoPay’s words that he wasn’t a believer. Why are you allowed to do that, and we’re not allowed to question Carl Stevens?"

Please link me up with that, I don't remember what you are referring to. Thanks.

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 06:30 AM

hodeuon

"Does Carl Stevens hold a special position?"

Yes as any Pastor/Teacher of a local assembly, and in the case of GGWO any assemblies that chose to affiliate with his assembly. Affiliation suggests, to a degree, subjection. Whether spoken or implied there is a ring of subjection, and this is by choice. The affiliates look to him for spiritual guidance along with words from the throne (remember the classic: Throne Words?). Pastors have to have a Pastor (in most cases). This method of Church Building is used by several "denominations". If Pastors chose to call him Pastor I would think that would be special, but not as any type of rank.

Hodeuon, I took the time to answer your questions because I don’t know where you are at. They were good questions that need to be answered. I hope I cleared up for you what you wanted to know and that you can discern where I’m coming from. I won’t condone or justify anyone’s sins, not even my own, but I will also not make an issue out of them. We, as believers, are Believer/Priests. I name mine and you name yours and we both have fellowship with The Father, The Son, and The Body of Christ.

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 06:33 AM

escaped

Are you the guy who once "threw this dawg a bone"

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 06:35 AM

sidethorn

Who told you to look for fruits? There's plenty running around downtown Baltimore if your looking for them.

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 06:37 AM

sidethorn

"Just because he didn't slice up someone or shoot them doesn't justify covering up for him!!!"

Brother we're all covered: By the Blood of the Lamb.

daved

08-29-2006, 08:47 AM

Hi Jim Buckley,

I am glad you returned, however I notice that you chose not to deal with the "Yahweh" issue that separates GGWO from most other Christian ministries that, like GGWO, claim to be Bible Believing Christian Ministries.

In fact GGWO chooses to use a popular Evangelical Bible, [e.g. The King James Bible] although Pastor Carl Stevens informs us that God does not appreciate the King James Bible that GGWO uses because this Evangelical Bible calls Him "Jehovah".

GGWO teaches dogmatically that God's name is "Yahweh" [and maybe it will turn out that GGWO is correct in this teaching] however the vocalized spelling "Yahweh" in found in no extant Hebrew text. Why is it Jim, that GGWO teaches that God's name is "Yahweh" and yet the name "Yahweh" is found in no no copy of an inspired "Hebrew Text."

Jim, on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 1:27 am:
you wrote:

>>>
What does matter to me is sound Doctrine, if it becomes unsound I'll make faith decisions to move along and "shake the dust from my feet". I don't think God needs my help in correcting things. What I do believe God is looking for is men of courage to stand in pulpits and lift up Christ "line upon line, precept upon precepts" (or so I don't offend drippy faucet) "verse by verse" or "word by word" or "jot by title". Men who aren't afraid to battle in the spiritual warfare, who won't entangle themselves in everyday affairs.
>>>

Jim, "verse by verse" or "word by word" or "jot by title", would you please explain to me where the vocalized spelling "Yahweh" is found in the inspired scriptures?

I know that Gesenius proposed the vocalized spelling "Yahweh" in about 1815 A.D.

I know that the vocalized Hebrew spelling "Yahweh" is found in the Brown-Drivers-Briggs lexicon, but where can I find the vocalized Hebrew spelling "Yahweh" preserved in the Hebrew scriptures. In what Chapter and verse of the Hebrew scriptures did God preserve His name as "Yahweh"?

Please help me Jim, to understand why GGWO, which dogmatically believes that God's name is "Yahweh", is not able to provide scriptural evidence for that particular teaching?

Sincerely yours,
Daved

P.S. Has the Lord Jesus Christ authorized Pastor Carl Stevens and other GGWO pastors to teach that His Father's name is "Yahweh"?

E.G. Is the Lord Jesus Christ the "only begotton Son" of God, whose name only is "Yahweh".

Is it "Yahweh" Himself that so loved the world, that He sent His only begotten Son Jesus to die on the Cross for the sins of the world, and that Jesus died for the sins of Pastor Carl Steven's "spirit and for the sins of Pastor Carl Steven's soul and for the sins of Pastor Carl Steven's body" as well as for the sins of every other person in the world.

(Message edited by Daved on August 29, 2006)

escaped

08-29-2006, 10:09 AM

Rjfernald...I don't know,

Jim I do...e-mail me guys and we will talk, Jim e-mail me your number, I have been looking for you for sometime, I even was in Pittsburg at the airport on the pay phone asking for your number.

etsecurity@hotmail.com

sidethorn

08-29-2006, 10:40 AM

Jim Buckley

I'm thinking a lot more vertically than you have. I care a lot more what God thinks than you do!!!!! That's why I have to expose this Greater Grace cult before more people get sucked into it and led astray by all that false teaching there. It does matter what Carl Stevens, Tom Schaller and the other corrupt leaders at GGWO think when other peoples' lives are greatly affected by it. It does matter when people I know have been brainwashed by this cult. It does matter when young people I know have stumbled in relation to the Gospel because of the mistreatment and alienation and slandering they recieved at GGWO by people who claim to be Christian. It does matter when these people are hardened to the Gospel from all this. It does matter when people have a distorted view of God from all the false teaching at GGWO and the mean-spirited leaders there. It matters more than enough to take action to publicly expose this corrupt personality cult for what it is. That is exactly what Jesus would want me to do. What you advocate with all this sit back and do nothing crap, stay out of GGWO business crap, and just let God handle it nonsense is what Carl Stevens wants, not what God wants. So just bring it on Jim. Go ahead and quote Scripture to try to justify covering up for Carl and his jerkwad buddies. Because the more you come on this board with your horsecrap, the more you show yourself incompetant in the Scriptures, incompetant at pastoring, and someone who still believes in a lot of the Greater Grace teaching.

SIDETHORN

sidethorn

08-29-2006, 11:02 AM

Jim Buckley

I'm not done yet. If you know of a company that's ripping off consumers or selling defective products that can cause fires in their homes, wouldn't you want others to know about it?? If you knew of a church down your street that claimed to be an evangelical church but was really some pastor worshipping personality cult that provided an unsafe environment for their kids by forbidding anyone from ever questioning anything, wouldn't you want others like your own friends to know about it??? Wouldn't you want others to know about it if that church's leadership claimed reform and repentance but the evidence showed otherwise??? Would you still stay silent and let your friends go to that church because "all that sin is covered"?? How would you feel if your friends' kids entered adult life not knowing how to think for themselves or getting swindled by con men because they were never told how to question anything but live in a mentality of naivity??? That's exactly what GGWO is about Jim!!! If these scenarios don't bother you enough to want to speak up to your friends of loved ones to protect them from organizations like this, you're almost as much of a monster as Carl Stevens!!! Deliberate silence in matters like this is a sin Jim. God will hold you accountable. If you don't warn your neighbor of a trap you see him blindly approaching, and he falls into it, his blood is on your hands!!! This is the issue here, not the covering of truly repented of sins which Christ's Blood does accomplish (for anyone). What you're advocating Jim, is silence so Carl Stevens and his henchmen can continue to mislead, exploit, and divide people unchecked and without accountability. That is sin Jim, whether you want to believe it or not!!!!

SIDETHORN

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

08-29-2006, 11:12 AM

Jim B.

You wrote:
"To discern someone is wounded is the same as discerning someone who is physically sick. You look at them and ask are you ok can I help in any way? Discerning someone's spiritual condition is by hearing the words they speak or in this case the words they write. If you don't like the word discern I'll use judge. I've judged by what I've read."

My dear brother, reading your words I discern that you have ZERO insight into the WORDS of Grace, the qualifications of an elder, accountability, responsibility, reaping and sowing, brotherly love, reproving the deeds of darkness or the ability to make righteous judgements.

You are the product of blind loyalty, misguided by false doctrinal presuppositions that create the blind allegience to men who have nothing but lust for approval and admiration of other wouned souls like you.

You are fleshly, carnal, and deceived, yet think you know doctrine. I hope and pray the day comes when you will read your words and see the depth of your depravity. You excuse anyone in the pulpit from any wrong...yet they preach pure heresy and you support it. In short, you are an idolator and give more allegiance to men than to THE ALMIGHTY GOD.

" I am the LORD your God, worship me alone."

You are weak, wounded, deceived and need a deep healing. If I can help you in anyway I will. What great joy to help a brother see his errors and turn from his wicked ways.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

08-29-2006, 11:17 AM

"I won’t condone or justify anyone’s sins, not even my own, but I will also not make an issue out of them."

You are right you do not. You encourage others to sin by twisting the grace of God into an excuse sin. It is part of your MC HAMMER nanner nanner can't touch this theology. You are weak, wounded, deceived and need a deep healing.

sidethorn

08-29-2006, 11:18 AM

Jim Buckley

As for fruits, there are a lot of sincere Christians with genuine fruit in their lives that have been sucked into Greater Grace and are mislead. Their fruits are clearly visible. I sure didn't see as much real fruit in the top leaders at GGWO though. I saw a bunch of very intolerant, divisive, arrogant men with their own selfish agendas looking for power and glory for themselves. I never saw a true servant's heart in them. They were much more concerned that everyone blindly believe their every word, obey them in all things (including the unscriptural), and serve the church leadership at the expense of family, friends and direct relationships with God!!! Your comment about fruit in downtown Baltimore completely misses the point. Genuine fruit exists inside and moreso outside GGWO Jim. The problem is with the severe lack of genuine fruit in the GGWO leadership!!! I don't need your approval to expose this stuff Jim. I already have God's and that's all I need. The real issues here are in my previous two posts Jim. God always wants these kind of persistant problems exposed to protect others. If you don't like that, argue it out with God!!!

SIDETHORN

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 12:12 PM

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

sidethorn

Pray for me, I'm a man of unclean lips.

cordell

08-29-2006, 12:47 PM

Impersonal love?

I don't think this is what you mean to say--is it really? How is God (who is personal) loving us with 'impersonal' love. Where did you get that wacked out thinking? CHS?

CHS didn't suffer from character assassination, it was character suicide that is his problem.

Buckley asks:
"how should I judge? By sight, by heresy, or by emotion?"
Actually, while I'm sure you meant 'hearsay', heresy--including Carl Stevens's sort is a good way to judge.
On the other hand, this teaching does not make one a heretic Actually, it does--because it teaches that one of the commandments of God should be broken. See Ex.20 and Eph.6:1.
What does matter to me is sound Doctrine... Which you wouldn't recognize if it bit you in the backside.

hodeuon

08-29-2006, 12:49 PM

Thanks for replying, Mr. Buckley.

As far as where I'm at and how I got involved in this, I stumbled across the Apologetics Index website in July 2004 and saw Greater Grace listed as having cultlike tendencies. I live not so far away and knew of the church and definitely knew the schools. I'm an evangelical Christian. I've interacted with people from GGWO on occasion. Greater Grace and its schools have a near-universal bad reputation in my area.

Regarding whether it is a local church matter, I believe you are confused about Galatians 2. Paul did not rebuke Peter in Galatia. He wrote to the Galatians about rebuking Peter in Antioch (the Antioch in Syria). The church in Antioch was not founded by Paul; it was founded by those scattered by him when he was persecuting the church. In Acts 11, the apostles sent Barnabas to see what was going on with this new church in Antioch. He stayed on & became a leader, and he was the one who brought Paul there as a teacher. In Acts 13:1, Paul is the last listed of the five prophets and teachers. In one sense, Paul is a teacher from a church under the authority of the twelve apostles. But he is also an apostle, accepted as such by the twelve in Galatians 2:1-10. Paul is rebuking Peter as an equal. You could even make a case that he is rebuking a nominal superior.

Hodeuon

cordell

08-29-2006, 12:53 PM

You are not in the kiddie pool jimmibuck.--
sincerely,
drippy

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

08-29-2006, 12:56 PM

Why jimmibuck I thought you crucified your lips! After all, you are in the spirit world! Enjoying your higher life Gnostic lifetyle with your gurus to tell you how to live.

rocketman

08-29-2006, 01:30 PM

Ahhhh, Jim, Jim, Jim...

"I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance, I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men,"

God doesn't see any believer as "wicked", He only sees them in Christ with His righteousness. Have you forgotten the Doctrine of Imputed Righteousness, or were you never taught it?

Let me get this straight, Jim.

You disagree with the Eternally Glorified Son of God, do I have that right? You would rather quote the 39 things and totally ignore the Word in the process? Please answer that. Jim, you're living a deception. You're doctine is FLAWED, Jim.
We're not talking about someone elses exegesis here, we're quoting the Word of JESUS, check it out in your red letter edition, brother.

Jesus says that MEN who claim to be APOSTLES and are NOT are WICKED men and should be EXPOSED, Jim...

or don't you see that you are arguing with the Savior in claiming that Carl Stevens knows truth better? Is THAT what you're saying?

and yes, I do know, all about the 39 things, Jim. My first personal copy was a mimeograph.

and while your at it here's some scripture to masticate:

"Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by TWO or THREE witnesses. Those who SIN are to be rebuked PUBLICLY, so that the others may take WARNING."
I Tim. 5:10-20

"Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that WE WHO TEACH will be JUDGED MORE STRICTLY." James 3:1

Which judgement, I assume from it's use, is by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords... no mere court... and a judgement, I am sure, that Carl Stevens will be unable to avoid, FW teaching or not.

rocketman

08-29-2006, 01:35 PM

Salute to cordell... is there some IM software on this site?

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 02:00 PM

cordell

"How is God (who is personal) loving us with 'impersonal' love. Where did you get that wacked out thinking?"

God cannot love the unbeliever with the same intense love that He loves His Son. His impersonal love draws the unbeliever to His Son and it is His desire that all men are saved, but he has no reason to love personally the unbeliever who is dead in his sins. The condition of the unbeliever is so personally unloving to God that His only option was to crucify it with Christ and create a new creation. Once the unbeliever believes and God places him in Christ 1 Cor 1:30 and transfers him from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His dear Son, He is free to love them with a personal love. The same love with which He loves His Son.

This is simple Bible Doctrine 101. I'm surprised you don't know this.

Breaking a commandment does not constitute heresy.

david_munson

08-29-2006, 02:03 PM

Mr.Buckley,
"The ringleaders judge CHS and GGWO to tear down, destroy, hurt and seek revenge."
---
The ringleaders are those at GGWO who are doing the very things you accuse us of.
They slander on a daily basis those who have left.IN RAPS! I have been there.

You say that you don't condone anyones sins.
That is exactly what you are doing.
These men are in postions that can,does and has caused great harm to the Lord's body of which you have no discernment.

You reject the order of discipline laid out in the Word that applies to every one including and especially the leadership.

As for these issues not being our concern,you are deluded.
Do you have no discernment of the body?

All I see you doing is excusing sin so that others can get hurt.
Where is the love of Christ in that?

You're attempt to make brownie points with your fellow lackies is way to obvious.
If I seem harsh it's because people like you who are deluded into thinking that pastors get a free ride to do as they please,really gets under my skin.
What care over and above the rest of the body you have for a man who used religion for his own purposes.

You need to wake up and take responcibility for the care of the body.
Too many wolves have had their time being loyal to a traitor that used and discarded others.
It still continues to this day because of those who refuse to expose it.
You are one such individual.

Do what you are actually saying to us,SHUT UP!

Dave
}

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 02:16 PM

hodeuon

"I believe you are confused about Galatians 2"

Thank you, I stand corrected. But to Paul was given the mystery, his Apostleship was unique. I personally don't believe Paul saw Peter as a "nominal superior", their reputation was nothing to him. I think he respected Peter's position and allowed him much grace, but when Peter changed his stance of Doctrine Paul administered another facet of grace.

rocketman

08-29-2006, 02:24 PM

Ahhhh, Jim, Jim, Jim...it's getting worse, i.e. your ability to think Biblically. Your honest efforts to secure the praise of GGWO has left you wanting, brother.

"God cannot love the unbeliever with the same intense love that He loves His Son. His impersonal love draws the unbeliever to His Son and it is His desire that all men are saved, but he has no reason to love personally the unbeliever who is dead in his sins. The condition of the unbeliever is so personally unloving to God that His only option was to crucify it with Christ and create a new creation. Once the unbeliever believes and God places him in Christ 1 Cor 1:30 and transfers him from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His dear Son, He is free to love them with a personal love. The same love with which He loves His Son.

"This is simple Bible Doctrine 101. I'm surprised you don't know this."

Doesn't anyone teach "unconditional love" there anymore. Are you now saying that God (Who IS Love) has a one kind of love for the lost and another kind for the believer? How Ludicrious and unbiblical is THAT? So God sent his Son to earth cuz He loved us.. kinda?

You're seriously loosing it, dude. The arguement and my respect.

rjfernalld

08-29-2006, 02:37 PM

Oh dear....it looks like Jim drank the Kool-Aid.

How sad.

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 02:42 PM

david_munson

"You say that you don't condone anyones sins.
That is exactly what you are doing."

No sir, that's only what you perceive I'm doing.

"Do you have no discernment of the body?"

Surely I do.

"You reject the order of discipline laid out in the Word that applies to every one including and especially the leadership."

What I reject is disgruntled ex-members in their righteous indignation thinking they have a voice in a local assembly they no longer belong to.

"All I see you doing is excusing sin so that others can get hurt."

I made no excuses for anyone, not even for myself. I only offered Divine view point, which I did not see being offered. I ask you, are the 39 positional truths applicable to all believers or just to the ones who we don't what their sins are? Friend, Christ took care of sin and sins, it's a non issue before the Father. Fellowship is His desire. If you are not currently a member of GGWO Baltimore, butt out and realize your life in Christ instead of someone's perceived failures.

"If I seem harsh it's because people like you who are deluded into thinking that pastors get a free ride to do as they please,really gets under my skin."

Again friend, I never said a Pastor should get a free ride. If I did, please, link me up with it. Let me try to make this clear. Only the assembly of the local church have a voice in the disciplinary actions of their Pastor/Teacher and/or Elders if it is necessary.

"You need to wake up and take responsibility for the care of the body."

I don't think jumping on the "get CHS and GGWO" is a wake up call. But since I know your heart is pure before God, keep me in prayer. Thanks.

hodeuon

08-29-2006, 02:45 PM

“As we grow in Grace and Knowledge, and as God gradually conforms us in to the image of His Son we learn to have His impersonal love toward all mankind. It's a growing process and takes time through the Word and Grace, we plug along. But as our love toward our fellow humans grows the present evil age grows more and more evil also. If we have impersonal love toward mankind it doesn't mean that mankind has impersonal love toward us. As you can see here on factnet the attitude is not far from murderous, in twenty-three years I have never seen so much HATE from professing believers. But to coin a phrase it's "character assassination". This type of attitude in this present evil age is why as prudent believers we carry (legally) or keep weapons in our homes to protect our families and possessions. This is why our country raises up a military force to protect our freedoms. Right now the terrorists don't really care how much we love them. They have an agenda. So to answer your question, CHS taught the Finished Work. He is under assault. You may say for the things he has done, maybe, from a carnal point of view, but I believe it is for the Doctrine of The Finished Work he teaches. Not all the Doctrine he teaches but The Finished Work Doctrines and positional truth. Messages the Devil hates as much as he hates Christ Himself. CHS knows this and would be very foolish not to want to protect himself in the onslaught of the battle.”

Ok, fine, we legally carry weapons and/or keep them in our homes for protection. But the nations raise militaries. Churches don’t. Carl was at risk because he preached the finished work? What about pastors outside The Bible Speaks / Greater Grace? Wouldn’t they have been at risk, too?

The weapons that were left behind in Lenox are not the sort you can carry in public for protection:

One Remington 700 bolt-action rifle with a 4x12 scope
Two Ithaca 37 twelve-gauge shotguns
One Ruger Mini-14 .223 caliber with a thirty-round clip

Then there are the surveillance items: a voice stress analyzer, a telephone analyzer, a fingerprinting kit, a couple of hollow books – the kind you can hide something in….

Hey, Dave Munson, you know firearms, right? What do you think of this weapons mix? The Remington and the Ruger in particular don’t strike me as security weapons.

Hodeuon

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 02:57 PM

rocketman

"Doesn't anyone teach "unconditional love" there anymore. Are you now saying that God (Who IS Love) has a one kind of love for the lost and another kind for the believer? How Ludicrious and unbiblical is THAT? So God sent his Son to earth cuz He loved us.. kinda?"

Do you love your Parents the way you love your wife? Do you love your children the way you love your wife? Do you love your neighbors as you love your children. Do you love Michael Jackson the way you love you children, or in the way as Michael Jackson loves children? I think you get the point. It's not so "Ludicrious and unbiblical" at all is it. You express a different type of love for your neighbors than your family unless you seek "desperate housewives" which is another kind of love. Why do you think God can only manifest His love or love in only one way? But if you set your mind on things of the earth how will you understand the things above?

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 03:05 PM

hodeuon

"Ok, fine, we legally carry weapons and/or keep them in our homes for protection. But the nations raise militaries. Churches don’t. Carl was at risk because he preached the finished work? What about pastors outside The Bible Speaks / Greater Grace? Wouldn’t they have been at risk, too?"

I don't believe you are ignorant to the fact that Churches have enemies, leaders have the right to choose how the protect themselves according to the laws of the land, as well as every individual.

We are all at risk in the spiritual warfare.

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 03:13 PM

Hodeuon

"The weapons that were left behind in Lenox are not the sort you can carry in public for protection:

One Remington 700 bolt-action rifle with a 4x12 scope
Two Ithaca 37 twelve-gauge shotguns
One Ruger Mini-14 .223 caliber with a thirty-round clip

Then there are the surveillance items: a voice stress analyzer, a telephone analyzer, a fingerprinting kit, a couple of hollow books – the kind you can hide something in….

Hey, Dave Munson, you know firearms, right? What do you think of this weapons mix? The Remington and the Ruger in particular don’t strike me as security weapons."

You can only speculate, you don't know the motives. Despite what some people would have, the ownership of guns in this country is still the right of the citizens. Your are walking by sight looking for or trying to manufacture evidence that the man in question is a wicked and evil sinner. Aren't we all outside of Christ?

hodeuon

08-29-2006, 03:57 PM

Mr. Buckley,

"Despite what some people would have, the ownership of guns in this country is still the right of the citizens."

I'm not disputing that. I agree with you. You are the one walking by sight, assuming that because I disagree with Carl Stevens I must therefore agree with everything he rails against. I live outside your categories.

"You can only speculate, you don't know the motives."

Fact: You said the weapons were for Carl Stevens' protection.
Fact: As a general rule, bodyguards carry pistols. Secret Service, DSS, federal marshals, even private bodyguards carry pistols.
Fact: A Remington 700 with a scope is a hunting weapon.
Fact: A Ruger Mini-14 is a scaled-down M-14 without the selector switch. It is a small-caliber rifle.
Opinion: A scoped rifle is a poor choice for close-in defense of a single person one is trying to protect. It is however a reasonable sniper weapon.
Opinion: .223 caliber has a nasty tendency to not stop an attacker immediately making it a poor bodyguard weapon.

As you say, we are all in *spiritual* warfare. There are many other churches that are aware of this truth, and I do not see them guarding their pastors with weapons.

Conclusion: Carl Stevens may have need for protection that goes beyond that of other pastors. Given that other pastors preach the whole counsel of God, Carl's reasons for needing protection may not be theologically based.

Hodeuon

rjfernalld

08-29-2006, 04:56 PM

Carl was paranoid...if anyone had really wanted to off the SOB there was ample opportunity when he was not with his praetorian guard.

He was only someone special in God's economy IN HIS OWN MIND and in the minds of those he indoctrinated. His so-called doctorate wasn't worth the paper it was written on any more than any of the ordinations he passed out to those little boys who believed in HIM more than God. I personally wouldn't find any of the papers he gave out worthy to line my bird cage.

He did so much more harm than good in God's name and is anathema....God will spew him out and likely say to CHS..."I never knew you and you never knew me."

Sorry Jim, but I am in total disagreement with you and won't bother to tussle with you about the biblical reasons because you are obviously not listening to my friend Hodeon or anyone else....proving once again that staunchly indoctrinated people such as yourself, my old friend, are not willing to listen anyway. I am so sorry to hear these things you are saying, as I had hoped you'd have escaped by now

Roberta

listener

08-29-2006, 05:40 PM

Mr. Buckley,

I, for one, do not wish you to stop posting, nor to shut up.

I left a GGWO affiliate one year ago, after resisting for some time. I first observed aberrent behavior and misuse of scripture over a period of time, and questioned the pastor about it. His answers seemed reasonable.

God then sent several individuals with information about their experiences with GGWO across my path.

In attempting to corroborate that information, I stumbled across FN. A great deal of the information here is not corroborated, and so, was dismissed. The most telling posts were those that simply quoted or linked to statements made by GGWO leadership.

At the time of the coup in Baltimore, I overheard conversation indicating that the coup was planned.
I was disappointed that the reforms proposed at Sandy Cove were less than adopted.

I watched and listened to some at my affiliate denigrate other believers from the pulpit.

But I probably would not have left, because my experience was positive there, had not God nearly audibly tell me that I was not to be there. I was nearly overwhelmed. There has been much fallout in my family over leaving.

And yet, those on FN know that I have defended GGWO as flawed, but not cultic. I have hoped and prayed for the reform needed to let GGWO be all that it can be.

Your posts are convincing me otherwise. If your theology is that of GGWO, then I repent. Please do keep on explaining your positions. Be as clear as you can. Thank you.

rjfernalld

08-29-2006, 05:57 PM

His theology is flawed BECAUSE it is mostly made up of Carl Stevens false doctrines, as listed here on FN...geographical will of God, delegated authority etc.

dancer

08-29-2006, 06:29 PM

Jim I doknow the motives. Carl Stevens told me on more than one occastion why he had the guns and the rest while I was standing in his house. He asked me to help him with some items.

I am not making assumptions, I am going on what CHS told me and hired me at one point to deal with.

cordell

08-29-2006, 06:33 PM

'Impersonal'????

Are you even sure what this word means, numbnutz?

impersonal/[im-pur-suh-nl]
–adjective

1. not personal; without reference or connection to a particular person: an impersonal remark.

2. having no personality; devoid of human character or traits: an impersonal deity.

3. lacking human emotion or warmth: an impersonal manner.

If God loves you, while you are yet a sinner, you can bet your arse it's personal--that is what "his" and "toward US" means Ro.5:8--from a person to persons--to whit, it's personal love.

We are all at risk in the spiritual warfare.

My Lord, Mr.jimmybuck, if the warfare is spiritual--so are the weapons!!! (2 Cor. 10:4) Take your head out of your arse!

God cannot love the unbeliever with the same intense love that He loves His Son.

Prove that one with a single scripture!

Jn 13:34, Jn.15:9, Jn.15:12 and especially see Jn.14:9--you work it out jimmybuck--you're just wrong. Unless of course you have some sort of convoluted misconception of the Trinity--which I am sure will show itself.

Breaking a commandment does not constitute heresy

definition:
opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine, esp. of a church or religious system.

Sure it does:

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Carl Stevens (and jimmybuck) teach men to break the commandments.

Carl's need for weapons? "If ya gonna fiddle and diddle ya betta keep some heat in the middle"

And now that you know my name, jimmybuck, I see that immediately you know me after the flesh you fekkin pompous big headed double-speaking hypocrite!
Your friend,
Mr. Drippy

PS: PLEASE don't shut up! This is the most interesting FN has been in months!!!

All we need now is for Karen Duhamel and the Krainiac to re-emerge and spank me for being bloodthirsty and mean (may peace be unto them).

dancer

08-29-2006, 06:36 PM

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 07:17 PM

hodeuon

"I do not see"

I know.

hodeuon

08-29-2006, 09:04 PM

My full sentence was: "There are many other churches that are aware of this truth, and I do not see them guarding their pastors with weapons."

Obviously you learned what passes for hermeneutics in TBS/GGWO. Dropping the object out of a sentence is on a par with the atheist who claimed that the Bible sas "there is no God" after he dropped "The fool says in his heart" off the front of that verse.

Let's try to at least be adult about this.

Hodeuon

lee

08-29-2006, 09:11 PM

classic............this is fascinating! Keep going Jim Buckley. This is a great example of what has/is being purged from many. You have an eager listening audience.
I am left with utter gratefulness to God for his work in so many lives.

cordell

08-29-2006, 09:16 PM

Naw Hody, play his own game:

jIMMYbuCK SEZ:

I don't believe

Mr. Drippy sez:

I know.

whatsup

08-29-2006, 09:24 PM

yes, JB's posts are at least good for entertainment value...nothing like some absurd rantings to stir things up...kind of like the Mel Gibson thing...except JB has no excuse...he's sober (I think) and not likely to come to his senses and apologize

jim_buckley

08-29-2006, 09:53 PM

Hodeuon

I apologize for being laconic. What I was saying is that by what you have written you prove my point. You walk by sight (your observation) and not by faith. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

whatsup

08-29-2006, 09:56 PM

feel better, houdeuon?

forte

08-29-2006, 10:17 PM

Oh my God! This is maddening!

cordell

08-29-2006, 10:19 PM

HODY SEZ: "I do not see them guarding their pastors with weapons."

jiMMYbuCK sez: You walk by sight (your observation) and not by faith.

Mr. Drippy sez: Hody, Hody, Hody--oh ye of little faith. If you had enough faith ye would be able to see with your spiritual eyes the carnal weapons that these spiritual pastors are guarded by--weilded by big thick dumbarse security yes-men who couldn't get a real job--by faith.

cordell

08-29-2006, 10:23 PM

oh forte, be strong. or loud. or is that fortissimo?

forte

08-29-2006, 10:25 PM

LOL!

cordell

08-29-2006, 11:16 PM

BTW, our friend jiMMybUCK seems to be posting from PA. Maybe our friends GTP or hadasa can fellowship with him. Is there a refugee camp for outed GGers in PA?

leegriffith

08-30-2006, 12:07 AM

Hi Jim Buckley--

It is wonderful to see some doctrinal substance on this board which represents the mind of Christ and manifests His love! I would be tempted to say it is largely wasted in this arena--but then there is Isaiah 55:11. Check out our new website at gracebasics.org and email me from there if you would like--would love to hear from you, Jim.

Lee Griffith

(Message edited by leegriffith on August 29, 2006)

cordell

08-30-2006, 01:40 AM

Hey,jimMYBucK:

You too can have crystal clear exposition of the scripture just like Brother Lee Griffith who explains what happened after the resurrection this way:

I believe that the twelve apostles (complete with Matthias, who was the legitimate and divinely ordained replacement for Judas in Acts 1) were going forward with the kingdom agenda during the early Acts period. It had been promised that they would sit on twelve thrones over Israel in Messiah’s kingdom (Matthew 19:28). What many refer to as “the great commission” (and it WAS a great commission--Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-18; Like 24:47-48; Acts 1:8) was a continuation of the proclamation of the Gospel of the Kingdom after the crucifixion, death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Christ. After all, Messiah’s kingdom could only be officially offered to Israel AFTER the Cross (Luke 24:26; 1 Peter 1:11). Indeed the formal offer of Messiah’s kingdom was clearly presented through Peter in Acts 3:19-21. Had Israel, as a nation, repented and accepted the offer, the seventieth week of Daniel would have occurred, followed by the Second Advent of Christ and the establishment of His kingdom. The response of Israel to the offer, however, crystallized with the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7. It was then that God began to set Israel aside (Romans 11:25)—TEMPORARILY. God will fulfill all of the covenant promises to Israel after the rapture of the Church of the present dispensation.

So...what dispensation are we in? And how many of them are there again?

Brother Lee also explains why HE is more in tune with God than the rest of the Church has been for over TWO THOUSAND YEARS on the subject of water baptism:

I believe that the ritual of water baptism was a ritual associated with the kingdom program for Israel. It was a ritual which illustrated the washing away of Israel’s sins as the people of the nation prepared their hearts to receive Messiah as King. There is no Biblical basis for the assumption that water baptism is a picture of our death, burial and resurrection with Christ, or a picture of our positional baptism. When the Apostle Paul was water baptized, it was in connection with the washing away of sins (Acts 22:16). Water baptism was clearly a part of the commission of the twelve (Matthew 28:19; Acts 2:38). The Apostle Paul was water baptized because he was saved when the kingdom agenda was ongoing. After Paul was saved, he received progressive installments of revelation directly from the ascended Christ Jesus (Acts 26:16 “…for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things IN WHICH I WILL APPEAR TO YOU”). (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:7.) After Paul received quite a bit of revelation about the great mystery, he became aware that his commission did not include water baptism (1 Corinthians 1:17). People try to get around the clear implication of 1 Corinthians 1:17 by saying that Paul wanted to emphasize his preaching of the gospel over and above his water baptism because the Corinthian believers were developing personality cults around those who had baptized them (which they certainly were). But think about it. Could any of the twelve during the Pentecostal era have said that they did not come to baptize?

Our dear Brother Lee is a member of a tiny group of folks descended from the Bullingerites (E.W. that is) that the other dispies call "hyper-dispensationalists". Even CHS would have enough sense not to buy into their stuff.

cordell

08-30-2006, 01:52 AM

So if the marks of the church have always been ascertained as the pure preaching of the gospel, the rightful administration of the ordinances or sacraments and church discipline--whatever that is that Lee Griffith leads out there in the desert it sure as heck isn't a church.

And not just because he doesn't baptize--oh,no--it is because HE thinks there are TWO gospels! One of them is the gospel of the Kingdom and the other is (most probably) the gospel of grace, right ol' Lee?

Now, ain't it weird--in a sweet kinda way how these types attract one another? Makes you wonder whether that wackjob MartinL from the early days of FN will rise to the surface again.

leegriffith

08-30-2006, 01:57 AM

Thanks for setting us all straight, cordell. You'll love my articles on Calvinism too!

cordell

08-30-2006, 02:02 AM

My dear Lee, what could you possibly add to the befuddled works of Miles Stanford to whom you are a mere parrot? (Even though he wouldn't like your ultrahyperdispie view).

Should I venture to wade into Lee's thorny ramblings on Calvin (who he's probably never studied)?

cordell

08-30-2006, 02:19 AM

Hey Ol' Lee! I note you attempt to take on James White in your trite little tirades--he's right in your neighborhood and is always open to debate. I would love to see that one--but then guys like you try to brief well on paper and usually wilt under fire when you're face to face having YOUR silly ideas challenged. How 'bout it Lee, up for a debate with James White?--I can get him on the phone in real short order!

cordell

08-30-2006, 02:23 AM

And James White is no mere Calvinist--he's a BAPTIST who believes (unlike me) in Baptism by immersion--in (gasp) water!

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

08-30-2006, 02:23 AM

Matt Damon. Lee Griffith. Film Actors Guild members Why? Because...

cordell

08-30-2006, 02:29 AM

Bro. Lee says:

God’s Son Jesus Christ suffered substitutionary spiritual death on the cross on behalf of every member of the human race.

OK, everybody get out your Dake's Annotated Study Bible...Got one of those ol' Lee?
Jesus died spiritually? 'splain dat, Lucy!

(Message edited by cordell on August 29, 2006)

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

08-30-2006, 02:38 AM

Lee Griffith: Jimmy Buck, Did you see the size of that FACTnet chicken?

Jim Buckley: Hey, Griffith, how come they ain't killing us?

Lee Griffith: Because we're in the spirit world, carnalhole. They can't see us.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

08-30-2006, 02:46 AM

Jim Buckley to the GGWO Security Team Leader: "You know, Sir, I do admire you, and I sure would like to touch the spiritual gun that's gonna defend Carl the King. If I close my eyes and tap my red shoes together three times and chant "I see by faith, I see by faith, I see by faith"...I am transported to the spirit world..I see the scope and the barrell on the Remington 700 (what Army Snipers use), is that you behind the butt stock, brother Lee?"

(Message edited by guess who is coming to dinner on August 29, 2006)

david_munson

08-30-2006, 03:35 AM

Hodeuon asks,"Hey, Dave Munson, you know firearms, right? What do you think of this weapons mix? The Remington and the Ruger in particular don’t strike me as security weapons.

They are not security weapons at all.Not unless you plan on stopping someone from a distance that is.
The two twelve gauge shotguns are the most versatile of the lot.
Shotguns are great for urban type assault.
You can use both slugs for distance shots Or buckshot for in closer.

It is more effective to use handguns for personal protection as they are more easily handled in close quarters and provide immediate 360 degree coverage for a quick take-down.

I prefer a forty cal glock myself and have become quite proficient with it.
I carry with the 13 round police magazines which gives me 27 shots (with one in the chamber) that can be fired very fast and accurately.

No,
these weapons that are being described have zero use for security purposes.
The key word being "concealed" carry.
These weapons (except for the shotguns) are designed for long shots.

That they are mentioned as security weapons is disturbing,unrealistic and ridiculous.

}}}

rocketman

08-30-2006, 05:59 AM

Jimbo says:

"Do YOU love your Parents the way YOU love your wife? Do YOU love your children the way YOU love your wife? Do YOU love your neighbors as YOU love your children. Do YOU love Michael Jackson the way YOU love you children, or in the way as Michael Jackson loves children? It's not so "Ludicrious and unbiblical" at all is it. YOU express a different type of love for YOUR neighbors than YOUR family unless you seek "desperate housewives" which is another kind of love. Why do you think God can only manifest HIS love or love in only one way?

"But if you set your mind on things of the earth how will you understand the things above?"

Uuuuhhhh... by actually READING SCRIPTURE, bro. Let's see... there's so many things wrong with your statement that I don't know where to begin.

First of all, you're trying to assert that by examining MY love one can deduce what GOD'S love is like... that God's love can be compared to mine.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, niether are your ways my ways," delares the LORD. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9. I figured that was pretty basic doctrine. You surprise me for one that thinks he has a handle on the Word.

And to think that the Eternal God as described in the Old AND New Testaments has some kind of score card for his love is so... so... I'm speechless. It's an Unbelievably basic Doctrine as 'Jesus loves me this I know...' Well it makes me want to go hit the Book in the Greek and start giving you jot and tittle on Agape/Phileo/Eros with a little bit of comparitive analysis of Pneuma/Sarx for good measure just to get you started.

Your complete lack of substantive understanding of the Word of God is astounding. Oh.. and by the way, the fact that you couldn't even substantiate your point with the use of SCRIPTURE is revealing. You had to try to use human love to describe GOD'S love, revealing once again, the utter emptiness of your position. Get right, dude.

whatsup

08-30-2006, 11:43 AM

the question that comes to my mind about the weapons is...if they weren't security weapons and were designed for "long shots", then what was the reason they were there? Was the plan to scope out enemies of the ministry as they approached in the distance down Kemble Street and take them out before they could reach the campus?

lee

08-30-2006, 11:52 AM

Yeah! and what was the reasoning behind spending money on night vision goggles and telephone surveillance and all the other stuff??? Lie detectors? Would that be part of the entrance exam for BS? I've never got my head around this one. Except to do as accused, and that is to walk by pure sight. Something is wrong with this and It's foolish to not question it.

lee

08-30-2006, 11:56 AM

I had 'imaginations' that when we were all asleep, snug in our beds, that the mighty security force would be running around campus with the guns and night goggles, protecting us from......what? Reporters? disgruntled ex's? I feared the security guards and their 'toys' more than whoever was out there somewhere.

whatsup

08-30-2006, 12:08 PM

or maybe if you became "deceived" or "went against the ministry", they would put their night goggles on and come and snatch you from your bed http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/uhoh.gif

lee

08-30-2006, 12:18 PM

for me, it would've been that I was not submitting to my head......in other words STOP THINKING,DON"T ASK QUESTIONS!

duncwashburn

08-30-2006, 02:15 PM

Jim B,

I remember the '34' things that happened at salvation. How about these?

John 5:11 Jesus speaking to the man healed by Him, He said, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."

In John 8:11 Jesus was speaking to the woman taken in adultery when He said, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."

I take from these situations that I need to do a better job guarding my life with respect to sin and that it is a sad, sad thing to see another person in sin (not to mention leading others in sinful ways - that's are real big 'ouch'). Sin destroys.

Duncan

david_munson

08-30-2006, 02:18 PM

I have done security/body guard work and these firearms would be in the way of my job.

If they where purchased for hunting
(which it has been stated they where not)
I would have no problem with it but the purported reason is inconsistent with reality.

All the other equipment is indicative of a paranoia that has been attributed to Carl.

Security cameras should be on the outside of buildings and cover all entrances.
Not in dorms or bathrooms.
Placing a camera in a common or private bathroom is a crime.There is no useful purpose in peeping Tom setups,except the heinous and perverted kind.
---
"Then there are the surveillance items: a voice stress analyzer, a telephone analyzer, a fingerprinting kit, a couple of hollow books – the kind you can hide something in…."
---
All these tools are not for security purposes.They are for unwarranted surveillance.
Unwarranted being illegal.

A lie detector and a telephone tapping setup.
First ,in order to get someone to submit to a lie detector test there has to be written agreement.
Second ,the phone line tap is just plain illegal.
Third ,what would be the explanation for fingerprinting a member of the church?

These are crimes that JB cannot defend with twisted scriptures.They are crimes ,period.

Sorta neo-nazi if you ask me.

Yes Carl was/is extremely paranoid.
This is not "church."

Just for fun,let's throw in the drug/sex parties that where held in a hotel down the road from the campus.
I have a relative who lived in the hotel at the time and saw everything.

If any of you lackeys from GGWO figure out who I am referring to,my advice to you is not to bother them or you'll have to deal with the whirlwind that I'll unleash and I do not stop until I am satisfied with my work.

Buckley,get a clue about who you are dealing with.these people are dangerous to the body of Christ and you seem to think we are not our brothers keeper.

You do not discern the body because if you did you'd be giving warning to her.
Not "letting God handle it."
God uses people to do His will and perform His purposes and does not expect us to walk by the injured folks we might pass on the road.

The body universal is every Christians business.
We need more Nathans.

Dave

}

boss_martian

08-30-2006, 02:23 PM

Jim Buckley,

You have lost your damn mind.

When your belief system says that thievery, adultry, mind control and pastor worship should be just swept under the rug because it's "covered", yet not going to church three times a week to listen to a freak in a toupee is a sin, you don't have the common sense God gave a bowling ball.

Your "testimony" here is a strong warning to those who would ignore the danger of GGWO. In that sense, I thank you for posting.

What good is all of your intense Bible study, your splitting of Scriptural hairs, your fixation on the "39 things" that happened to Carl when you can't even tell right from wrong? What use are you?

There are plenty of Bible scholars here that will go toe to toe with you over the original Hebrew of this and that, but quite simply, Carl Stevens is a villain and always has been. He is a thief, a serial adulterer USING GOD'S NAME to justify it, a false idol, and a hypocritical liar. You worship him along with the rest of GGWO.

To hell with the f*&^ing "A and B Channels" and the 39 things that happened to the Apostle Stevens. A crook is a crook. Carl would have used Scientology to start his Earthly kingdom if it had been more convenient.

sidethorn

08-30-2006, 04:00 PM

I don't give a rat's a$$ about those 39 things that happened to Carl Stevens. He's a liar, a hypocrite, a con artist, a cult leader, a slanderer, a wolf in sheep's clothing, and a self appointed control freak that twists Scripture to manipulate people and lead them astray into worshipping him over God. There's no excuse for covering up for such a jerkwad!!! None!!! There is no Scriptural basis for covering up for men such as Carl. Persistant sinners that hurt others were publicly exposed and rebuked in the Bible. Carl needs his public exposure too. Only those who have as much knowledge of the Bible as a doorknob, or those who refuse to face up to the truth, or cowards who just want to duck and hide (saying "let God handle it!") would support covering up for Carl Stevens. JB, what good is it to quote Scripture on this board when your own posts show you don't really know what those Scriptures mean??? Please get all that GGWO crap out of your head, be a man and expose Carl like a real man would!!!

jim_buckley

08-30-2006, 08:37 PM

rocketman

"You had to try to use human love to describe GOD'S love, revealing once again, the utter emptiness of your position."

Joh 3:12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

jim_buckley

08-30-2006, 08:48 PM

duncwashburn

Do you know anybody who lives up to these verses? I don't get the point you are trying to make. Is one sin more horrendous than another in God's eyes? If so, did Christ pay for all sins or just the ones that aren't "too bad". Your argument doesn't stand on Finished Work Truth, but it might impress the "good works" crowd.

jim_buckley

08-30-2006, 09:06 PM

david_munson

"Buckley,get a clue about who you are dealing with.these people are dangerous to the body of Christ"

Mat 16:18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."

Are you trying to help Jesus?

"and you seem to think we are not our brothers keeper."

Jn 17:11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are."

I didn't know our brothers had to be "kept". It seems to me that Jesus has asked the Father to keep us. Do you think that The Father denied the requests of Jesus in Jn 17?

jim_buckley

08-30-2006, 09:16 PM

boss_martian

"There are plenty of Bible scholars here that will go toe to toe with you over the original Hebrew of this and that"

I am not a scholar, theologian, or a pastor. I only want to know Him, not the sins of anyone which have all ready been paid for.

"Carl Stevens is a villain and always has been"

Christ not The Father see him that way.

"He is a thief, a serial adulterer USING GOD'S NAME to justify it, a false idol, and a hypocritical liar."

He is a new creation and has is righteousness of Christ.

"To hell with the f*&^ing "A and B Channels" and the 39 things that happened to the Apostle Stevens."

Did I mention he is also a saint.

jim_buckley

08-30-2006, 09:23 PM

sidethorn

"I don't give a rat's a$$ about those 39 things that happened to Carl Stevens. He's a liar, a hypocrite, a con artist, a cult leader, a slanderer, a wolf in sheep's clothing, and a self appointed control freak that twists Scripture to manipulate people and lead them astray into worshipping him over God. There's no excuse for covering up for such a jerkwad!!!"

This is not the mind of Christ.

"Persistant sinners that hurt others were publicly exposed and rebuked in the Bible. Carl needs his public exposure too."

Is this not a public forum? Has he not already been publically exposed? Time to get down to Doctrine.

lmao

08-30-2006, 09:48 PM

Jim, Do you think there should be accountability in church government?

If your wife committed adultery, would you consider her as having the righteousness of Christ and not even give it a thought?

cape_cod

08-30-2006, 09:51 PM

The most dangerous people on the face of the Earth are religious fanatics who are convinced that they have a handle on the TRUTH. It matters NOT if you're a fanatical muslim OR Christian or whatever. Someone who twists scripture or whatever their religious foundation happens to be, IS misguided and extremely dangerous.

Thank you Jim Buckley for proving my point.

jim_buckley

08-30-2006, 09:51 PM

leegriffith

Lee, was Rocky Racoon saved? I've heard it's an ongoing debate.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

08-30-2006, 10:15 PM

JB, somehow I missed this response:
"Where did you get your understanding of dispensationalism? By the way, The Church doesn't have to "claim Her birthright", She already is the Body of Christ and shares in His Birthright"

Jim,
you really need to buy a dictionary. Do you realize what claim means? This is not Pentecostal name it and claim it...which is just as heretical as your nanner nanner MC Hammer Theology.
Main Entry: 1claim
Pronunciation: 'klAm
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French claimer, clamer, from Latin clamare to cry out, shout; akin to Latin calare to call -- more at LOW
1 a : to ask for especially as a right <claimed> b : to call for : REQUIRE <this> c : TAKE 16b <the>
2 : to take as the rightful owner <went>

BTW, I got my understanding of Disp. from an accredited Christian University. Lots of hours there from great teachers. Never really bought into the errors of Darbyism. Disp. is flawed in many ways. However, you got your understanding from where again?

jim_buckley

08-30-2006, 10:27 PM

lmao

"If your wife committed adultery, would you consider her as having the righteousness of Christ"

Yes, God has imputed that righteousness to her and even He won't take it away.

"and not even give it a thought?"

Who could "not even give it a thought"? But my prayer would be:

Phi 3:13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,

and

2Co 2:7 so that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him (her), otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.

jim_buckley

08-30-2006, 10:31 PM

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

"from an accredited Christian University"

And what did you say the name of it was?

cordell

08-30-2006, 10:46 PM

Is one sin more horrendous than another in God's eyes?

Well...uh...yes, in fact. Causing another to sin is worse than the sin caused. If you are in a superior position of leadership and you sin, your sin is worse because you lead others astray.

Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

Boss Martian where the hell have you been? And what are you doing with my hard earned tax money?

sidethorn

08-30-2006, 10:58 PM

You're dead wrong there Jimmy Buckley!!! Exposing cults and calling their leaders con artists, charlatans etc is exactly what the mind of Christ is all about. Jesus publicly called the Pharisees "dogs" etc. as He CONTINUALLY exposed them PUBLICALLY as the frauds they really were. That's exactly why Jesus has me and many others continually exposing GGWO as the dangerous manipulative cult run by con men that it is. As long as GGWO continues to suck in more unsuspecting people to exploit, people will continue to be raised up by God to publicly expose GGWO as a cult and a fraud!!! Part of God's way of handling it is to use people like Factnet posters to continually expose the cults among us. God does not want people to stay silent about what they know about cultic churches they used to attend while these cults continue to suck in and grind up more people. Get used to it Jim, people who know their Bibles won't buy your pathetic little arguments because they know better. While you talk about getting into "doctrine", people need to get into the living Jesus who can show people what real truth is. Then they won't get so decieved like you so obviously are!!! Time you get to know the living Jesus Christ better and let Him help you unlearn all that crap you learned from Carl Stevens and replace it with the real truth.

SIDETHORN

cordell

08-30-2006, 11:10 PM

The most dangerous people on the face of the Earth are religious fanatics who are convinced that they have a handle on the TRUTH. It matters NOT if you're a fanatical muslim OR Christian or whatever.

While I understand the sentiment and the downright amazement at someone being as whackedup as jimMMYbUcK is after being out of GG, fanatical Christians do not fly airplanes into buildings...

leegriffith

08-30-2006, 11:12 PM

jim_buckley

You said,

"To run a member of the Body of Christ down, no matter what they have done, reveals not only a lack of integrity but also a lack of spirituality. Some of these people I actually knew. They had a heart after God at one time but lost their focus. Now some whine and cry about some man or organization that did them wrong and won't rest until they get their revenge. There is no conception that Christ Himself put these things in their path. Any doctrine that they have learned, and there was some good Biblical teaching there, has gone out the window. If the wounded are seeking after Christ they will have a hard time finding Him here."

That's so right on, Jim--What is so sad is that these people think that a person who thinks this way must be a member of that big, bad GGWO, the organization they blame for all of their problems (and they do have some serious problems). Pathetic.

jim_buckley

08-30-2006, 11:17 PM

sidethorn

"Time you get to know the living Jesus Christ better and let Him help you unlearn all that crap you learned from Carl Stevens and replace it with the real truth."

How is this done outside the Word of God (Doctrine)?

lmao

08-30-2006, 11:22 PM

JB, I agree that we should keep our minds on Him as the Bible says in many places, but Sidethorn is right in that God can lead us to expose evil. As has been said before here, the people that post here have lives. They serve God. They think with God. They love people. They win souls. They work hard and most have families. What you read here is not the whole story. Factnet is about gg and exposing corruption, hypocrisy and heresy which should be exposed. It has also become about conversations and theological debates which can be confusing to outsiders but that's life.

jim_buckley

08-30-2006, 11:28 PM

"What is so sad is that these people think that a person who thinks this way must be a member of that big, bad GGWO, the organization they blame for all of their problems"

The crystal ball they use has been brainwashed.

If they want to point to the old man, I'll point to Christ and our position in Him. The believer who has a heart after God will know the balance.

jim_buckley

08-30-2006, 11:35 PM

lmao

"Factnet is about gg and exposing corruption, hypocrisy and heresy which should be exposed."

1)corruption = sin, covered by the Blood

2)hypocrisy = sin, covered by the Blood.

3)heresy = ?, what heresy?

redsnapper

08-30-2006, 11:38 PM

In case no one mentioned these things it has some relavance to the whole ongoing conversation and the guy who started it; Jim Buckley.
J.B. Came out of the Marines somewhere in the mid to lates 1970's. A few years later he became and still is a devoted disciple of Rick Knapp.
Thats right Buckleys a Knappster not to be confused with the pirated free music downloaded from the net. J.B. went to Lenox/Stevens Bible Cult 1985. Sometime after the revalations of Carls lies and deceit in the 1987 court case J.B. was in Baltimore briefly for a couple years. Graduated I hear in 1989. Later moved to Pittsburg, to follow in the footsteps of the then disaffiliated Rick Knapp.
More commentary later. Hope you dont mind J.B. After all this is the same thing Carl does is get a little background on people except for different reason.

jim_buckley

08-30-2006, 11:46 PM

cordell

"Well...uh...yes, in fact. Causing another to sin is worse than the sin caused."

I see, now we have mortal sins and venial sins.

jim_buckley

08-30-2006, 11:52 PM

redsnapper

"the mid to lates 1970's"

1978

"J.B. went to Lenox/Stevens Bible Cult 1985."

1984, January.

"Graduated I hear in 1989"

Never graduated.

"After all this is the same thing Carl does is get a little background on people except for different reason."

I see you point, if he does it why can't you.

George is this you?

sidethorn

08-31-2006, 12:02 AM

Here's your answer Jimmy. What you call doctrine is not really the Word of God, its just Carl Stevens own man made faulty interpretation of it. One get's to know Christ better without your "doctrine" and gets to know Christ better by seeking Him in prayer, by reading the Word of God and by letting Him give you accurate interpretations of Bible verses. You can't get real truth by trusting in Carl's interpretations of the Word, you have to go to Christ yourself.

jim_buckley

08-31-2006, 12:10 AM

sidethorn

"hat you call doctrine is not really the Word of God, its just Carl Stevens own man made faulty interpretation of it."

You're absolutely sure of that?

"One get's to know Christ better without your "doctrine" and gets to know Christ better by seeking Him in prayer, by reading the Word of God and by letting Him give you accurate interpretations of Bible verses."

This is a sure recipe for another Jesus and another Gospel. 2Co 11:4, Gal 1:6,7

rjfernalld

08-31-2006, 12:19 AM

Now I know it's true...I suspected it all these years...but now, hearing all of this, I see clearly

CARL PI$$ED IN JIM'S KOOLAIDE

leegriffith

08-31-2006, 12:23 AM

redsnapper--

"After all this is the same thing Carl does is get a little background on people except for different reason."

I'm thinking Carl must have had a more reliable source for information than your source apparently is.

sidethorn

08-31-2006, 12:29 AM

Wrong there Jim. The problem with GGWO is that people trust Carl's interpretation of Scripture blindly, never even considering that there are serious flaws with it which are very obvious. God did give us pastors to as a teaching aid to find truth, but the Bible itself is always the final standard for truth. That's what I'm getting at. If you have more of a relationship with your pastor than Christ, you got a big problem. Seeking Christ must come first. Fellowship with pastors and other believers is important too. I'm not discounting that. But if you honestly seek God for truth, you'll find it. God will see to that. Having godly wisdom from others is important too as a protection from deception but don't put all your eggs in one basket (Carl Stevens). What happens then if the one man you look up to actually doesn't know his Bible? Then you get led astray with him. Seek some good counsel from a number of trustworthy Christians, but never stop seeking Christ yourself for truth!!!

leegriffith

08-31-2006, 12:35 AM

sidethorn

"The problem with GGWO is that people trust Carl's interpretation of Scripture blindly, never even considering that there are serious flaws with it which are very obvious."

Then what the hell is wrong with these people? And why, after they leave, do they claim they were abused?

sidethorn

08-31-2006, 12:38 AM

Lee

Why don't you spend some time reading the posts people put up on Factnet to get your answers??

leegriffith

08-31-2006, 01:00 AM

sidethorn--

Let's try this once more.

"The problem with GGWO is that people trust Carl's interpretation of Scripture blindly, never even considering that there are serious flaws with it which are very obvious."

If this is true--then why, after however many years it has taken, when they have finially wised up and stopped being idiots--why do they BLAME SOMEONE ELSE for the fact that they were not considering such serious flaws that are so obvious?

rjfernalld

08-31-2006, 01:07 AM

leegriffith

Carl used mind control techniques to indoctrinate those of us who were his flock. No, this was not just your usual everyday local fundamentalist Christian church. It is a mind control cult. It follows the BYTE model to a T, and there is ample evidence on this board if you look it up.

sidethorn

08-31-2006, 01:16 AM

Thats exactly why the obvious is not so obvious. Bait people with enough truth to get them inside the sanctuary and then use the mind control techniques on them while mixing in the false teachings they otherwise would see.

rjfernalld

08-31-2006, 01:25 AM

pssssssst...sorry bout that koolaid comment, jim

umm...I haven't changed thaqt much, the devil made me do it *S*

rjfernalld

08-31-2006, 01:32 AM

reprinted from the Mar/Apr 1990 Bethel Ministries Newsletter

Eight Marks of a Mind-Control Cult
by Randall Watters

Brainwashing has become almost a household word in the last two decades or so. In 1961, Robert J. Lifton wrote the definitive book on the subject, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, after studying the effects of mind control on American prisoners of war under the Communist Chinese. Lifton outlines eight major factors that can be used to identify whether a group is a destructive cult or not. Any authoritarian religion should be held up to the light in order to determine just how destructive their influence is on their members. Judge for yourselves.

Milieu Control
"Milieu" is a French word meaning "surroundings; environment." Cults are able to control the environment around their recruits in a number of ways, but almost always using a form of isolation. Recruits can be physically separated from society, or they can be warned under threat of punishment to stay away from the world's educational media, especially when it might provoke critical thinking. Any books, movies or testimonies of ex-members of the group, or even anyone critical of the group in any way are to be avoided.

Information is carefully kept on each recruit by the mother organization. All are watched, lest they fall behind or get too far ahead of the thinking of the organization. Because it appears that the organization knows so much about everything and everyone, they appear omniscient in the eyes of the recruits.

Mystical Manipulation
In religious cults, God is ever-present in the workings of the organization. If a person leaves for any reason, accidents or ill-will that may befall them are always attributed to God's punishment on them. For the faithful, the angels are always said to be working, and stories circulate about how God is truly doing marvelous things among them, because they are "the truth." The organization is therefore given a certain "mystique" that is quite alluring to the new recruit.

Demand for Purity
The world is depicted as black and white, with little room for making personal decisions based on a trained conscience. One's conduct is modeled after the ideology of the group, as taught in its literature. People and organizations are pictured as either good or evil, depending on their relationship to the cult.

Universal tendencies of guilt and shame are used to control individuals, even after they leave. There is great difficulty in understanding the complexities of human morality, since everything is polarized and oversimplified. All things classified as evil are to be avoided, and purity is attainable through immersion into the cult's ideology.

The Cult of Confession
Serious sins (as defined by the organization) are to be confessed immediately. The members are to be reported if found walking contrary to the rules.

There is often a tendency to derive pleasure from self-degradation through confession. This occurs when all must confess their sins before each other regularly, creating an intense kind of "oneness" within the group. It also allows leaders from within to exercise authority over the weaker ones, using their "sins" as a whip to lead them on.

The "Sacred Science"
The cult's ideology becomes the ultimate moral vision for the ordering of human existence. The ideology is too "sacred" to call into question, and a reverence is demanded for the leadership. The cult's ideology makes an exaggerated claim for possessing airtight logic, making it appear as absolute truth with no contradictions. Such an attractive system offers security.

continued

rjfernalld

08-31-2006, 01:35 AM

Loading the Language
Lifton explains the prolific use of "thought-terminating cliches," expressions or words that are designed to end the conversation or controversy. We are all familiar with the use of the cliches "capitalist" and "imperialist," as used by antiwar demonstrators in the 60's. Such cliches are easily memorized and readily expressed. They are called the "language of non-thought," since the discussion is terminated, not allowing further consideration.

In the Watchtower, for instance, expressions such as "the truth", the "mother organization", the "new system", "apostates" and "worldly" carry with them a judgment on outsiders, leaving them unworthy of further consideration.

Doctrine Over Person
Human experience is subordinated to doctrine, no matter how profound or contradictory such experiences seem. The history of the cult is altered to fit their doctrinal logic. The person is only valuable insomuch as they conform to the role models of the cult. Commonsense perceptions are disregarded if they are hostile to the cult's ideology.

Dispensing of Existence
The cult decides who has the "right" to exist and who does not. They decide who will perish in the final battle of good over evil. The leaders decide which history books are accurate and which are biased. Families can be cut off and outsiders can be deceived, for they are not fit to exist!

I posted this for those who didn't understand the mind control aspect of GGWO

leegriffith

08-31-2006, 01:43 AM

rjfernalld--

I graduated from SSB and was ordained by GGWO in 1988, so I'm not exactly unfamiliar with what went on at TBS/GGWO. I arrived at some doctrinal differences with what Carl taught (some of which cordell ever so cordially discussed on factnet last night)--so I left GGWO in 1991 without looking back--and without blaming anyone but myself for the lack of discernment I had for years. Yes I know families have been destroyed and all of the rest of it--but people need to accept the responsibility for their own actions, and I don't see a lot of that on these threads. In the Bible the responsibility to recognize truth from error has always rested on THE PEOPLE--that is every inividual.

sidethorn--

"Thats exactly why the obvious is not so obvious. Bait people with enough truth to get them inside the sanctuary and then use the mind control techniques on them while mixing in the false teachings they otherwise would see."

How about this scenario: People are baited by the drives of their own lusts, approbation lust being the strongest. And they are willing to believe stupid things and do stupid things that they otherwise would not have done.

cordell

08-31-2006, 01:53 AM

If your wife committed adultery, would you consider her as having the righteousness of Christ and not even give it a thought?

And not only that, but if she and her conga partner 'rebounded' she could sing in church that Sunday and her f**kbuddy could preach!

sidethorn

08-31-2006, 01:56 AM

While peoples' own lusts work against them in life and they end up doing stupid things in life, that's not the core issue with GGWO. Its with the brainwashing and false teaching there with the intense control tactics. If you've really been to GGWO like you claim to, you know that to be true or else you're still highly brainwashed and blinded to the truth. Also, this web site is primarly about exposing cults, not for people to publicly blame themselves for lack of discernment. People can take that issue up with God apart from the Internet. God is, and will continue to use posters on this board to expose GGWO as the mind control cult that it is as long as the GGWO leadership doesn't want to clean up its act. That will remain the primary emphasis here.

cordell

08-31-2006, 02:03 AM

I see, now we have mortal sins and venial sins.

You're an idiot, aren't you? I just gave you supporting scriptures which you fail to address--you talk about doctrine yet you have so little real understanding. You do have bible-tourette's syndrome don't you?

Just for others, who might actually be able to comprehend that some sins are actually more severe than others, is another example:

To reject a greater revelation from the Lord is a more heinous sin:

But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

(Message edited by cordell on August 30, 2006)

johncollins

08-31-2006, 02:08 AM

leegriffith said, I know families have been destroyed and all of the rest of it--but people need to accept the responsibility for their own actions...

Do those people who need to accept responsibility include Carl Stevens, and his spiritual sons in leadership at GG today? Or does the "finished work" give them all a free pass?

sidethorn

08-31-2006, 02:15 AM

These guys would like to think so as they talk about "finished work" and "touch not thine anointed". But they really want to avoid accountability and responsibility as they continue to exploit and mislead people.

cordell

08-31-2006, 02:18 AM

I graduated from SSB and was ordained by GGWO in 1988, so I'm not exactly unfamiliar with what went on at TBS/GGWO. I arrived at some doctrinal differences with what Carl taught (some of which cordell ever so cordially discussed on factnet last night)--so I left GGWO in 1991 without looking back--and without blaming anyone but myself for the lack of discernment I had for years.

So, Lee Griffith is still riding on his TBS/GGWO ordination and training save for he started drinking the KoolAid from another cup without dumping out what he'd already guzzled.

So Lee, ready to take on your neighbor James White in a serious debate? Or are you one of those wet wussies who thinks debates are carnal (though you just want to throw your UNSUPPORTED premises out there for all and sundry).

There was a guy in GGWO--Bill Reed--who had similar ideas and wrote the same kind of drivel on his website. When I challenged him on several points, he went on and on about being attacked and how unloving debating was. What a bunch of weasels you hyperdispies are.

cordell

08-31-2006, 02:22 AM

actually RJ, that pi$$ing thing was probably the funniest thing you've ever said on FN...

leegriffith

08-31-2006, 02:44 AM

cordell--

I don't debate, and I'm not at all insecure about the fact that I don't, weasel or no. I TEACH the congregation God has me serving--in a monologue, not a dialogue. And all are free to come hear the teaching, or not to come; and if they do hear my teaching to make of it what they will. You would, no doubt, categorize it as drivel--which is o.k.--it's all about free volition--oh yeah, you guys don't acknowledge free volition. James White has debated Dave Hunt--as you are probably well aware--in a book entitled "Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views." I would recommend the book to all Calvinists and non-Calvininists and those who are not sure. I know who I think presented the better case--I'm sure you would differ.

cordell

08-31-2006, 03:06 AM

Of course you don't debate--you're in the spirit world, more conscious of your supposed 'position'. While you don't debate--you throw out caricatured uninformed and inane comments like "oh, yeah you guys don't acknowledge free volition" which shows how very ignorant and obtuse you really are. Calvinists have a much higher view of 'free volition' than even you do--and if you had ever really read Calvin or studied what Calvinists really believe you would not be stumbling about stepping all over your johnson as you just did.

Dave Hunt took Spurgeon completely out of context which White pointed out again and again--much in the same way your buddy jiMMYbUcK took our friend Hody out of context on another thread, and when it was pointed out to him he retained his pompous attitude. Are you his daddy?

(Message edited by cordell on August 30, 2006)

forte

08-31-2006, 11:31 AM

leegriffith,
you quoted sidethorn

"The problem with GGWO is that people trust Carl's interpretation of Scripture blindly, never even considering that there are serious flaws with it which are very obvious."

then you responded:

"If this is true--then why, after however many years it has taken, when they have finially wised up and stopped being idiots--why do they BLAME SOMEONE ELSE for the fact that they were not considering such serious flaws that are so obvious?"

That is ridiculous. You are pretty high and mighty aren't cha? You can't pin the blame on the people entirely. Stevens is a con man. He plays on the emotions and finances of people. Goes to great lengths to free himself from any accountablility and schaller was a quick study.
You can't judge people for finally seeing the light, realizing that they have been used and abused all these years and trying to speak out against it. Don't be a fool, man. Show some compassion and insight.

forte

08-31-2006, 11:34 AM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/angry.gif

cape_cod

08-31-2006, 11:38 AM

Cordell, with all due respect:

In my previous post I said: The most dangerous people on the face of the Earth are religious fanatics who are convinced that they have a handle on the TRUTH. It matters NOT if you're a fanatical muslim OR Christian or whatever. Someone who twists scripture or whatever their religious foundation happens to be, IS misguided and extremely dangerous.

To which you replied: "While I understand the sentiment and the downright amazement at someone being as whackedup as jimMMYbUcK is after being out of GG, fanatical Christians do not fly airplanes into buildings..."

In the Middle Ages, the Crusades are proof positive of what fanatical Christians are fully capable of. Attempts by European Christians to impose their vision of religion upon Jews, Orthodox Christians, heretics, Muslims, and just about anyone else who happened to get in the way.

The method used was: condemnation, excommunication, repression and eventually death. Christians did not shy away from killing their own religious brethern when even minor theological differences arose. For them, perhaps no differences were truly minor - all doctrines were a part of the True Path to Heaven, and deviation on any point challenged the authority of the church and the community. In the Middle Ages, it was a rare person who dared to stand up and make independent decisions about religious belief, made all the more rare by the fact that they were massacred as fast as possible.

Taking the heads of slain enemies and impaling them upon pikes appears to have been a favorite pastime among crusaders. I myself fail to find the fun in that, but I have been cautioned not to judge people living in another time by my own modern standards. Chronicles record a story of a crusader-bishop who referred to the impaled heads of slain Muslims as a joyful spectacle for the people of God.

When Muslim cities were captured by Christian crusaders, it was standard operating procedure for all inhabitants - no matter what their age - to be summarily killed. It is not an exaggeration to say that the streets ran red with blood as Christians reveled in church-sanctioned horrors. Jews who took refuge in their synagogues would be burned alive, not unlike the treatment they received in Europe.

Historically, people in ALL religions have been extremely corrupt, violent, and abusive down through the ages.
Christians have been no exception.

*(my apologies for going off subject)*

sidethorn

08-31-2006, 12:16 PM

Thanks Forte. People should speak out about these abuses and people like Carl Stevens should take the bulk of the blame. The leaders are responsible for their congregations in God's sight. Carl and his inner circle have mislead many people into wrong teachings and wrong ideas about God too. These leaders will be the ones having a lot of explaining to do on Judgement Day.

hodeuon

08-31-2006, 12:43 PM

Mr. Buckley and Mr. Griffith, thank you for interacting with the rest of us. You have helped me realize soemthing about the overall situation at Greater Grace.

Carl Stevens certainly has doctrines of his own. But some of the doctrines that most of us oppose - rebound, don't confront a leader, making a decision not to have a certain sin or a particular problem any more - those are not Carl Stevens' inventions. (No doubt Carl has his particular twist to each.) There is an overall school of thought of which Carl Stevens & Greater Grace are part. And this school of thought would include most of the IAGM, Rick Knapp, and Thieme's churches in general.

There are the conduct issues in GGWO - sexual, financial, etc. - which I think we all agree are wrong.

Then there are the doctrines created to protect wrong actions. Projections would be an example: you didn't *really* see Carl with that woman.... These are doctrines expounded with malice aforethought.

Then there are the doctrines that make it possible for the overall situation to develop in the first place. Rebound - the claim that forgiveness means no consequences, the focus on positional truth to the point where you literally cannot deal with CArl breaking up families. You knew it was wrong and left, right? And I do have to say that you were acting in accord with your belief that you can't bring up forgiven sin or question authority. I don't happen to agree with you at least did what your beliefs allowed you to. In the larger school of thought these doctrines aren't expounded with malice aforethought. But they still allow for an abusive leader to come in with intent to control. That's why I, at least, feel like IAGM is vulnerable to the same thing happening again.

I should make a disclaimer - there are many strands of theology in Greater Grace. The Thieme school is only one of them.

Hodeuon

duncwashburn

08-31-2006, 02:22 PM

Jim B,

From you to me...

"Do you know anybody who lives up to these verses? I don't get the point you are trying to make. Is one sin more horrendous than another in God's eyes? If so, did Christ pay for all sins or just the ones that aren't "too bad". Your argument doesn't stand on Finished Work Truth, but it might impress the "good works" crowd."

1. I know I don't and I try not to portray to anyone that I am sinless or above anyone.

2. I do believe there are warnings against leading the sheep astray or leading improperly. I remember from TBS pulpit the warning preached to the shepherds of this world:

Jer 10:21 For the shepherds have become dull–hearted, And have not sought the LORD; Therefore they shall not prosper, And all their flocks shall be scattered.

Jer 23:2 Therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: "You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings," says the LORD.

3. I was not arguing. The 'Finished Work' does not give anyone a liciense to sin but It reminds us that we are God's workmanship created unto good works (Eph 2:10) We are to work out what God has worked in (Phil 2:12) and do it with fear and trembling -- God did not work in us a sin nature. It reminds us to flee youthful lusts (2Tim 2:22). It reminds us to overcome evil with good not to be overcome by evil (Rom 12:21)

4. What I wrote and am writing is to me about me specifically and to anyone else for whom 'the shoe fits'.

5. If you want to communicate directly my email address is dwgwjwgw@hotmail.com; please make sure you are clear what this is about because I delete things I don't have a clear idea from whom they are sent.

Sincerely in Christ,

Duncan

david_munson

08-31-2006, 02:45 PM

"3)heresy = ?, what heresy?"

How about the doctrine of "touch not mine anointed" being used to protect carl from being disciplined?
Is he a King,Prophet or priest after the order of the old testament? By the way,"touch not" is about not physically doing harm to God's anointed "king,Prophet or Priest."
Not about questioning a pastor's message or bringing him under the discipline of the church when he refuses to submit to correction.

Yes,heresy.

Dave
}

leegriffith

08-31-2006, 04:31 PM

Hodeuon—Part 1

(When I tried to post this message I was informed that it exceed the space limitation and that I would have to post it in two parts—which I am doing)

Hodeuon,

Thank you for your civility and for refocusing this discussion. I would like to address the doctrine of “rebound,” a doctrine that you noted is opposed by many.

The doctrine of “rebound” (I personally call it the acknowledgement of personal sin) is indeed a basic tenet of Bible doctrine, and while it, like many other doctrines, has been abused, twisted and perverted—the doctrine itself is Bible truth.

The doctrine teaches that when a believer in Christ acknowledges personal sin to God, the believer is forgiven by God, and his or her fellowship with God resumes:

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9 NASB)

(There are some who teach that 1 John 1:9 is for another dispensation—poppycock! There are also some who teach that 1 John 1:9 is about a person believing on Jesus Christ unto salvation. That view denies the context of the entire epistle.)

What 1 John 1:9 is about is the forgiveness of God, with regard to the believer’s temporal experience, being granted. (Every believer is already forgiven, judicially, with regard to our position in Christ, through the cross—1 John 2:12.)

1 John 1:9 is all about the restoration of fellowship with God in the believer’s experience on the basis of acknowledged truth:

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper; but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. (Proverbs 28:13)

If we deny our sins—if we rationalize them and make excuses for them—if we blame others for them—we are not confessing (acknowledging) them.

To acknowledge personal sin is simply to regard the truth about it—to let the light of the Word of truth expose sin—and admit to it, when it is exposed. It is something every believer must do in order to retain fellowship with God so that progress in the spiritual life may resume.

This is not to say that the consequences of personal sin go away—far from it! David’s affair with Bathsheba, and his setting up her husband to be killed, resulted in painful, painful, painful consequences that affected David for the rest of his life—and others as well. He acknowledged his sin—2 Samuel 12:13—so his fellowship with God resumed. But Nathan the prophet spelled out an intense program of divine discipline that would “put the hurt on” David for the rest of his life (2 Samuel 12:9-14). Did David get away with his sin? I don’t think so.

However, the one thing that his coming clean with God about his personal sin did was to give David a capacity to “face the music”—to undergo, IN FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD, the painful things that would happen to him. That makes all the difference in the world, as most of us know. This certainly was not the last time David had a problem with sin (see 1 Chronicles 21)—and though he again “rebounded,” there were far reaching consequences for that episode of sin as well.

leegriffith

08-31-2006, 04:37 PM

Hodeuon—Part 2

Hodeuon,

The acknowledgement of personal sin does not mean that the consequences of personal sin go away. In some cases “judging ourselves” will circumvent, or lessen, the consequences (1 Corinthians 11:30-31). Nor does the acknowledgement of personal sin negate the need for restitution to people when appropriate. In fact, the believer who acknowledges his sin will quickly be back out of fellowship with God when restitution which is due is denied. Furthermore, all criminal activity should certainly be dealt with and punished; and inappropriate behavior by those in spiritual leadership should be appropriately addressed within the local church. There are differences among believers, and always will be, as to exactly how administration of the church is set up. But I personally believe that one thing that should be in the constitution of every assembly is a procedure for the removal of a pastor by the vote of the assembly.

As to the breakup of families, etc. which has resulted among those in TBS/GGWO, Carl is certainly responsible before God, and to people, for whatever he is actually responsible for. And other leaders are responsible for what for they are responsible for. And spouses and/or parents who made poor decisions—through a lust for personal attention, or power, or in legalism, or in responding to that which they, in their heart of hearts, knew was not truth—are responsible for the decisions they made. However it all gets sorted out in this life, we know that there is a future judgment where the motives of the hearts of all believers in Christ will be disclosed (1 Corinthians 4:5).

But frankly, Hodeuon, what I have seen on this message board, by and large, is not the desire of members of Christ’s body to deal with sins and abuses in a positive and Biblical manner. What I have seen so much of, and it has been quite disturbing to me, is vicious revenge lust, presumption, judging, maligning, invasion of privacy, personal insults, bitter sarcasm, hurtful comments and the like. None of these things are becoming of members of the body of Christ—and none of them are a part of the Christian way of life—and if you bring this up, it is assumed that you must still be in the big, bad “cult.”

The doctrine of rebound, when taught biblically is not the problem, Hodeuon—the problem is evil; and the sin nature; and our failure to apply the Word of God to our experience.

Gotta go folks—maybe I’ll drop in again sometime down the road. May you all find peace, consolation, healing, and happiness from the only source where these things can really be found: through our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus.

Lee Griffith

minutus

08-31-2006, 04:50 PM

Another drive-by versing? Seems like old times http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif.

cordell

08-31-2006, 05:04 PM

cape,
interesting that you have to go back to the 12th century to find so called "christian" 'terrorism' and you conveniently passover the sword by which the so-called Muslim prophet conquered--from Arabia to France across N.Africa. I am not defending the Templars, the Inquisition or any other papal abuse--'fanatical' christians exist in OUR day--and they don't fly planes into bloody buildings and the 12th century Templars and papal inquisitors and the overzealous Zwinglians are...all dead. Distinguo.

What you are doing is equivocation--all religious zealots are equally dangerous--not so. I cannot stand Kenneth Copeland and I do believe that his doctrine is dangerous to the soul, but he is hardly likely to fly a plane into a building or tape a bomb onto his scrawny frame!

with all due respect, in kind.

And Cape, this is FN, feel free to get off the subject--especially if it will cause jimMYBucK to become even more befuddled that we can FEKKIN' DISAGREE without hating each other (even though you may MOST VEHEMENTLY dislike my 'doctrine' and I yours!)

cordell

08-31-2006, 05:13 PM

jimMMYbUCkNUMnuTZ:

Heresy=what heresy!

Baghdad Bob: "There are no American Forces anywhere near Baghdad, we are completely in control!

American soldier looking into camera over Baghdad Bob's shoulder: "Hi, Mom!

cordell

08-31-2006, 05:24 PM

Bye-bye LEeGrIFfitH:

like a passin' puppy poopin' on the carpet and runnin' off to another monotonous MONOLOGUE!

Wimp.

hodeuon

08-31-2006, 05:46 PM

Mr. Griffith,

With the exception of 1 John 1:9, I think we might agree with each other (on this subject). Except that you are using "rebound" for the right way to acknowledge personal sin, and I'm using "rebound" for the consequence-free way that Carl Stevens taught.

Hodeuon

cape_cod

08-31-2006, 06:01 PM

equivocation =
1 : to use equivocal language especially with intent to deceive
2 : to avoid committing oneself in what one says

#1 - I'm NOT trying to deceive anyone.
#2 - I'm totally committed in how I think.*L*

I didn't have to go back to the 12th Century, however, I wanted to portray radical Christianity in its most advanced state. There are many alive who would gladly kill in the name of Christ.

ALL men are sinners and have EQUAL capacity for sin.

You said: "all religious zealots are equally dangerous--not so"

I completely disagree. As I said, ALL have equal capacity for sin.

Satan can and will deceive ANY who will listen to him at ANY given point in time.

cape_cod

08-31-2006, 06:19 PM

The Pharasees and the Sadducees thought that they were masters of the Word of God (DOCTRINE). They had ALL the doctrines of God already solved in the original language and everything. What did Christ have to say about them? Radical?!?

John 8:42-47 (New International Version)

42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47 He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

nelrud

08-31-2006, 08:18 PM

It's ashamed that people like Jim feel more sorry for the guilty ones than the victims!

leegriffith

08-31-2006, 08:48 PM

Hodeuon--

Just to clarify something for the record--you mentioned the names of both R.B. Thieme and Rick Knapp with what I perceived to be an implication that their teaching of rebound was incorrect. I have listened to many hours of teaching over the years from both of these men on the acknowledgement of personal sin and the consequences of personal sin after acknowledgement. Both have been consistent on their teaching of rebound for many years. They both teach this subject exactly as I do, so far as I know. (In fact, I have received much enlightenment from their teaching on rebound.) So, if as you have said, you think you might agree with me on this subject, you are essentially saying that you think you might agree with both of them on this subject as well.

cape_cod

08-31-2006, 09:21 PM

I knew Rick Knapp back in the late 70's. I have received a bit of his teaching recently and have been very impressed. I have received R.B. Thieme's teaching as far back as the early 80's and do NOT agree with him on many different so called doctrines, or teachings. Thieme is however, brilliant. Although, I do NOT happen to agree with anyone 100% on doctrine. There is NO ministry or denomination that is perfect or has a corner on the truth.

gone_to_pa

08-31-2006, 11:06 PM

Yes I know families have been destroyed and all of the rest of it--but people need to accept the responsibility for their own actions, and I don't see a lot of that on these threads.

That's because you missed the only one from the GG heirarchy that had any balls. Dan Lewis did a pretty fair job I thought. Haven't we all learned that Finished Work and "know no man after the flesh means" do whatever the snike you want with NO accontibility?" We need to get back to doctrine= it's time for some more dead letter without the spirit. JB, keep on posting man, your doing more for the cause than anyone has in quite a while. GTP,

cordell

09-01-2006, 12:15 AM

Cape,

There are NO real Christians who are as dangerous as the Islamofascists. Not a fekkin one, not anywhere on the whole face of the earth. You are did not say they were all equally 'capable' you said they were all equally dangerous--you're wigglin' now and weaslin'. Here's your original quote unedited:

The most dangerous people on the face of the Earth are religious fanatics who are convinced that they have a handle on the TRUTH. It matters NOT if you're a fanatical muslim OR Christian or whatever.

You are not saying all are capable--you are saying all are equally dangerous. You are equating current day fanatical Christians (which I agree exist today) with current day fanatical Muslims. Fanatical Muslims and Fanatical Christians may equally believe that they have a corner on the truth. Fact is, that fanatical Muslims are terrorists and fanatical Christians are wackjobs--but they're not flying planes into buildings or strapping bombs to their bodies (unless you have an exclusive news network that I dont).

Now as for the truth, Christianity does make exclusive truth claims focused in the deity, humanity of Christ and the redemption wrought by him--which rules out any other way. Christians have the weapon of the gospel to further the Kingdom of God which will one day be the only rule on earth. Now that is world domination eventually, but it occurs through the work of the Holy Spirit and not any other 'weapon'.

cordell

09-01-2006, 12:19 AM

Thieme, Knapp, Lee Grrrriffith, CHS and any others who agree with the teaching of 'rebound' as taught by CHS or Thieme is pure and simply antinomian.

cordell

09-01-2006, 12:25 AM

"It matters not 'if you are a fanatical muslim or Christian or whatever' = fanatical muslims, christians, and whatevers are EQUALLY DANGEROUS =
equivocation:

"to use equivocal language" --especially with intent to deceive. Especially with the intent to deceive does not mean necessarily with the intent to deceive.

jim_buckley

09-01-2006, 01:47 AM

gone_to_pa

"Haven't we all learned that Finished Work and "know no man after the flesh means" do whatever the snike you want with NO accontibility?"

Not all of us.

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 02:20 AM

The Two Amigos Monologue:

Lee G: "Well, I was for rebound before I was against it."

Jim B. " I chugged the kool-aid, but I didn't swallow it."

orangetwopay

09-01-2006, 03:15 AM

those guys have been infected by a weird spirit... be careful of the tick!

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2006/09/watch-out-for-tick.html

daved

09-01-2006, 08:16 AM

equivocal: 1. That can have more than one interpretation; having two or more meanings; purposely vague, misleading, or ambiguous: as an equivocal reply.

On more than one occasion, Pastor Carl Stevens preached on "the greatest battle is the battle for "THIS BOOK", "THIS BIBLE", while holding a "King James Bible" in his hand.

Obviously Pastor Carl Stevens does not believe that the greatest battle is for the King James Bible, yet Pastor Carl Stevens used the word "this" before the word "Bible".

I have often wondered if this is merely a problem that a "spirit led man" would have, if his messages were being influenced by his own human spirit, which has no real understanding of the King James Bible, or was Pastor Carl Stevens really purposely trying to deceive his audiance into believing that he truely believed that the greatest battle was for the King James Bible [e.g. this book], that he was holding in his hand.

When I heard him say that "Tyndale died for "this" book, while holding a King James Bible in his hand, I had to assume that he couldn't possible be trying to convince his audience that in 1535 A.D. or so that Tyndale died for a Bible that was only first published in 1611 A.D.

Daved

rocketman

09-01-2006, 12:07 PM

Well... this has become totally ridiculous. This man, Jimmie "39 things" Buckley has a head made of concrete. He cares nothing of thinking about the Bible from any open mind. His head is locked, blocked and sealed.

I for one won't play this game. The possibility for any serious discussion has gone by the wayside. There is no serious, open discussion that leads to understanding.

And for my final volley (I have better things to do than try to give someone advice who has no use for it.)

Once again, Jimbo, you grasp at straws. However, to your credit you actually found a scripture that you think applies. The problem is... it doesn't.

Just cuz something is from the Word doesn't mean it has anything to do with the issue at hand. This is a tactic used CONSTANTLY by Carlie to push his points across. USING VERSES OUT OF CONTEXT.

Let's look at this one.

"You had to try to use human love to describe GOD'S love, revealing once again, the utter emptiness of your position." (my statement)

Joh 3:12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

First, you, Jimmie, aren't trying to tell me earthly things. You're all about "Positional Truth". You are using earthly human interaction to describe the Love of God. That is totally A$$ Backwards. God's love is NOTHING like man's.

Secondly, the context. Jesus was describing Being born of the Spirit. The second birth, aka Born Again. He was using the idea of human birth and the the movement of the wind to describe the second birth and the qualities of the Spirit. Those two examples were perfectly apt for the spiritual truth he described.

Your use of mans love to describe God's love is just the opposite. Man's love will not be God's love. It never can be compared... in its intensity, in it's giving, in it's perserverance. Thankfully.

You are a cloud without water. You speak high talk of spiritual truth that, although admirable on the outset, will leave you thirsty for reality when it all comes crashing in... and you realize that all that quoting of scripture will not spare you or your emotions when Real Life meets you square in the face. Good luck and God Bless. Your gonna need it when you wake up from the dream.

Truly,
J

duncwashburn

09-01-2006, 01:44 PM

Lee G,

I don't know you, but I'd have to say I agree with your last two long posts (on Aug 31).

It seems to me that it is usually the destortion of a 'doctrine' not the doctrine itself that is the problem.

I also agree that too much here is tearing down without the love of God. Name calling is childish but Jesus calls us to be childlike. Seems to me people become what they dislike in others (isn't that what Paul was saying in Romans 2 - not to mention that Michael took care how he spoke to the devil yet we are unkind to those who may be brothers and sisters in Christ)

Seems to me the love of many has turned cold.

Duncan

cape_cod

09-01-2006, 02:01 PM

Cordell,

Point taken.

You said: - "you're wigglin' now and weaslin'" - Sorry, I wasn't trying to do that.*LOL*

- In previously stating: The most dangerous people on the face of the Earth are religious fanatics who are convinced that they have a handle on the TRUTH. It matters NOT if you're a fanatical muslim OR Christian or whatever.

When I made that statement, I was definitely looking at the subject matter down through the Centuries from more of a historical perspective. Fanatical Christians have persecuted and killed each other over the Centuries due to mere doctrinal disputes and, of course, for more power and authority in the Church, not to mention what they did to those in other false religions in opposition to them. i.e. - (heads of slain enemies and impaling them upon pikes appears to be terrorism).

However, I am in total agreement with you regarding this subject matter. The fanatical Muslims wrote the book when it comes to terrorism. I also agree with you that in these modern times, the fanatical Muslims are MUCH more DANGEROUS in every way than fanatical Christians. Actually, fanatical Muslims are flat out INSANE with HATRED, which is by far, the most dangerous type of human being.

You said: - "Now as for the truth, Christianity does make exclusive truth claims focused in the deity, humanity of Christ and the redemption wrought by him--which rules out any other way. Christians have the weapon of the gospel to further the Kingdom of God which will one day be the only rule on earth. Now that is world domination eventually, but it occurs through the work of the Holy Spirit and not any other 'weapon'." - I totally agree.

P.S. -
I am NOT antinomian.
I am NOT a Calvinist.

It seems that we agree at least half the time. So, that means that you're right at least half the time. Just kidding!*L*

hodeuon

09-01-2006, 03:54 PM

Mr. Griffith,

I don't know. It's possible I might agree with Thieme & Knapp on personal accountability for sin. I have not looked up their positions yet. If they actually teach that there are sometimes still consequences even after sin has been forgiven, then I would agree with them on that point. No offense, but after seeing how what is publicly taught at Greater Grace doesn't always line up with what is privately done, I would also want to make sure that what anyone was saying on this subject was the same as what they really meant.

There are many things I disagree with Thieme & Knapp on, too. Counseling, for one. And the lack of emphasis on practical sanctification. I know I am drawn toward the intellectual at the expense of the emotional and the volitional, but I have to say that this overall school of thought (Thieme, Knapp, Stevens, etc.) is pretty cold. I think that it would be hard for many people to detect love.

Where do Thieme and Knapp stand on pastoral authority and the table of organization?

Hodeuon

guess_who_is_coming_to_dinner

09-01-2006, 04:20 PM

Disp./higher life teaching does not understand the relationship to the LAW and GOSPEL. Scofield Reference takes you down the slope.

A Spirit filled believer keeps HIS commands. If you love ME you will keep my Commands. Which ones? All the one anothers in the NT are based on the last six commands (our responsibility to our neighbor). All the love God commands are based upon the first four commands (our responsibility to God).

A Disp./higher life (these two are very connected)teacher preaches the big four:
SOUL WINNING
BIBLE READING
PRAYER
CHURCH ATTENDANCE

These are their classic 'marks' for 'maturity'. Hence, the need for Gurus and pushing performance along these lines.

Think of the average "Independent, Fundamental, Bible Believing, Soul Winning, Jesus Loving, Devil Hating, Born-again, Believer baptizing, Pre-Trib rapturizing, 7 year Tribulation loving, Dispensational dividing, Pre-millenial whining, Local Assembly teaching church"...you get my drift.

No matter how much you do it is never enough.

Also, esoteric musing along the lines of Jim B. is the norm focused on 'deeper meaning and positional truth'. So darn heavenly minded that they are no earthly good!

I prefer to sing "This is my Father's world" and take stewardship seriously...I am not polishing the brass on the Titantic.

One of the main reasons I left that camp is that I began to see the fatal flaws of their doctrine and what it leads to...CHS, et al. is the logical outcome of the doctrines. Throw in Watchman Nee and America's love affair with Gurus and Bob's your uncle we have the problems of society in the church.

Doubt me, watch Montel, Dr. Phil, Dr. Laura ad naseum...

dancer

09-01-2006, 04:26 PM

Reading much of this makes me ill and confused how people could make some really pathetic comments as I have seen here.

Personal accountability? Give it a break.A person from within GGWO talking about personal accountability. What a joke!For decades leadership ran amuck with no checks (maybe American Express Cards), and to read into the idea that somehow those who got burned by GGWO/TBS are more responsible or even responsible for theor outright suffering is really strange.I commited some pretty bad sins in my dad and frankly you won't have any trouble getting me to admit to them.Don't ask me to name all of them, there isn't that much space on the internet. But if somebody asks I guilty.But I learned pretty quick that it is better to confess and be done with it, learn to say sorry even if your not guilty and done nothing wrong for the person who things you have done wrong to them, than to sit back and watch anybody suffer.If I had 10 secons to speak to my wife Keri I would say:I love you, I am sorry, take care of our childen, and know that I am always here for you.

What would a Pastor say to those who think that has been hurt at GGWO? Get some backbone and take a leap into the lake?

There is no real church discplineship at GGWO. I use to tell Dean Lewis all the time UUA churches dealt better with these issues than did GGWO.Its pretty sad that a non christian denomination acts more Christian in dealing with these issues than does GGWO.

When I read a lot of these doctrinal arguments and like, I think of a time when I lost my girlfriend when I was about 24. A whole bunch of guys came over to my house and prayed for me, they all started with wanting to discuss what the bible had to say,then some wanted to lay hands on me and pray. My step brother who I hardly knew showed up and said:Hey Neil can I help you get your house cleaned up, buy you something to eat, get you something to drink.Good PCA Pastor he was. No scripture, no holy hands, no heavy theology. Just help.Where the heck are these guys in GGWO churches?

dancer

09-01-2006, 04:36 PM

jim_buckley

09-01-2006, 05:26 PM

Neil

"to read into the idea that somehow those who got burned by GGWO/TBS are more responsible or even responsible for theor outright suffering is really strange."

Have you ever read and thought about:

Act 17:11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

daved

09-01-2006, 06:11 PM

Jim,

GGWO teaches dogmatically that God's name is "YaHWeH"!

Pastor Carl Stevens has taught me and thousands of others [in an anointed message] that his is a "preciseness ministry" and I [as well as every other person on the earth] am going to be responsible at the Bema Seat for honoring God by the name "YaHWeH", because GGWO is teaching that God's name is "YaHWeH.

As far as I know, I could search the scriptures daily from now until eternity, to see whether these things were so, and I am not going to find the name "YaHWeH", in any extant Hebrew or Greek text.

And by the way Jim, even though you have never heard Pastor Carl Stevens teach that God's name is "YaHWeH", you are still responsible for honoring that name, because as I mentioned previously, that doctrine has been taught by a Pastor Teacher [i.e. Pastor Carl Stevens] who is the head of a "preciseness ministry"

According to Pastor Carl Stevens, God will say to you [e.g. Jim Buckley] at the Bema Seat, that there was a preciseness ministry [e.g. GGWO] on the earth that taught that doctrine while you were alive on the planet earth. ACCORDING TO PASTOR CARL STEVENS YOU WILL HAVE NO EXCUSE FOR NOT HONORING GOD BY THE NAME "YAHWEH".

Jim, I can provide you with a link to that message, if you should like to check it out yourself.

Of course after searching the Scriptures daily to see if Pastor Carl Steven's teaching is scriptural, I can only assume that the Bereans would have felt confident that they could reject his teaching.

However the Bereans were dealing with the Apostle Paul in the first century, not with the leader of a "preciseness ministry" in the 21st century, who may be claiming to have authority over the Scriptures.

Daved

(Message edited by Daved on September 01, 2006)

orangetwopay

09-01-2006, 07:25 PM

daved, might i suggest these new hallmark messages from pahstah carl h stevens?

"if it's KJV, it's alright with me!"

"following your "man of God"

and others... see them here:

http://liquidwaves.blogspot.com/2006/09/get-your-new-hallmark-messages.html

it's just what yer pahstah-teacha ordered!

otp

daved

09-01-2006, 08:31 PM

orangetwopay,

The four messages are blank.

What happened? :-)

Daved

jim_buckley

09-01-2006, 08:51 PM

daved

"GGWO teaches dogmatically that God's name is "YaHWeH"!"

OK.

"that doctrine has been taught by a Pastor Teacher"

But not by my Pastor/Teacher.

"Jim, I can provide you with a link to that message, if you should like to check it out yourself."

Thank you daved, I'm really not interested.

"Of course after searching the Scriptures daily to see if Pastor Carl Steven's teaching is scriptural, I can only assume that the Bereans would have felt confident that they could reject his teaching."

Are you saying that they would reject everything he taught or would you concede that he did teach some doctrines correctly? And if he did teach some doctrines correctly, wouldn't it be our individual responsibility to "examine the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so."?

I would think it is our responsibility, and not only our responsibility, duty as ambassadors for Christ. How could we represent Him and speak His mind if we don't know Him.

If we are not fulfilling our responsibility to "examine the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.", and place our faith in the teaching of a man and then find out sometime later "hey, this is not from God, this SOB has been brainwashing me", should my anger fall on the brain washer or should shame fall upon me for allowing myself to be conned?

How can we blame someone else for our short sightedness? Every believer is given the same Word and the same Holy Spirit.

orangetwopay

09-01-2006, 10:12 PM

"Every believer is given the same Word and the same Holy Spirit."

aaahhhhh................ the eternal kicker, ain't it folks?

i won't bore everyone again with my unending concerns regarding this issue... better just to have a laugh and relax.

daved

09-01-2006, 10:50 PM

Speaking of the Berians, Jim Buckley wrote:

>>>
Are you saying that they would reject everything he taught or would you concede that he did teach some doctrines correctly?

And if he did teach some doctrines correctly, wouldn't it be our individual responsibility to "examine the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so."?

I would think it is our responsibility, and not only our responsibility, duty as ambassadors for Christ.
How could we represent Him and speak His mind if we don't know Him.

If we are not fulfilling our responsibility to "examine the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.", and place our faith in the teaching of a man and then find out sometime later "hey, this is not from God, this SOB has been brainwashing me", should my anger fall on the brain washer or should shame fall upon me for allowing myself to be conned?

How can we blame someone else for our short sightedness?
Every believer is given the same Word and the same Holy Spirit.
>>>

Daved says:

I think that I have finally got to the point where I can no longer try to straddle both sides of the "YaHWeH" issue.

I have recognized for quite a while that what is sometimes referred to as "the scholarly reconstructed original pronunctuation:YaHWeH" is actually a punctuation of YHWH that was proposed by Gesenius in about 1815 A.D., and that not all Hebrew scholars agreed with him.

From lurking on b-hebrew and other scholarly discussion boards, I am now aware of more Hebrew scholars, that believe that the evidence for the name "YaHWeH" rests on shaky qround.

Since those persons [e.g. Hebrew scholars] who one might expect to be the most knowledgeable persons concerning the validity of the name "YaHWeH", are definitely not of one mind, it seems to me that the apparent absolute confidence manifested by certain GGWO pastors profess when they state that God's name is "YaHWeH" may be out of place.

Daved

(Message edited by daved on September 01, 2006)

jim_buckley

09-01-2006, 10:57 PM

Daved

"I think that I have finally got to the point where I can no longer try to straddle both sides of the "YaHWeH" issue.

I don't see why this is such an important issue to you. Could you explain?

whatsup

09-01-2006, 11:16 PM

http://www.factnet.org/discus/clipart/crazy.gif

forte

09-01-2006, 11:19 PM

heh heh heh

Daved!!!
Glad you're back. We've had some interesting conversation about God's name haven't we?

Glad you've come to some sort of conclusion.

Forte

(Message edited by forte on September 01, 2006)

daved

09-01-2006, 11:52 PM

Concerning the "YaHWeH" issue, Jim Buckley says:

>>>
I don't see why this is such an important issue to you. Could you explain?
>>>

I probably couldn't explain it very well to you.

Maybe you could email Pastor Carl Stevens a question and ask him why he believes that his teaching that God's name is "YaHWeH" is so important, that you, Jim Buckley will suffer loss at the Bema Seat, if you don't agree with it, even if you never heard it.

Some past history:

When Pastor Carl Stevens arrived in Baltimore in about 1989, He and his son Pastor Paul dogmatically believed that God's name was "Jehovah". Pastor Carl Stevens probably had taught that God's name was "Jehovah" for about 30-35 years before arriving in Baltimore.

In the early 1990's I was involved in discussions with Pastor Carl Stevens and Pastor Paul Stevens on the Grace Hour. I had mentioned to them that I had a sheet of paper in front of me that listed about 10 Encyclopedia's that taught that Jehovah was a hybrid name that meant nothing and that God's name was actually "YaHWeH".

At the end of one of our friendly discussions, Pastor Carl Stevens mentioned with total assurance: "Jehovah is not a false translation of God's name"

Within about a two year period, both Pastor Carl Stevens and Pastor Paul Stevens had changed their beliefs and were now dogmatically teaching that God's name was "YaHWeH".

Sometime in the 1990's Pastor Carl Stevens made known to a radio audience of thousands or possibly tens of thousands that he believed that he had been in error when he had previously taught [for 30-35 years] that God's name was "Jehovah".

In the years 2003-2004 I had several discussions with Pastor Carl Stevens and Pastor Paul and Pastor Steve on the Grace Hour, where I tried to determine just what evidence they were basing their belief on, as at this time I was trying to determine on various discussion boards, what evidence actually existed that God's name was "YaHWeH".

Finally I became aware of evidence that the Greek writings of Clement of Alexandria was one source that scholars were quoting as evidence for the name "YaHWeH". I called into the Grace Hour and reported my beliefs, and Pastor Carl Stevens and Pastor Steve Stevens both stated that they too were trusting in Clement's writings.

Later however, I discovered that there were questions as to whether or not Clement of Alexandria actually wrote that God's name was "Iaoue" which was thought to support "YaHWeH" or whether he wrote "Iaou" which did not support "YaHWeH".

And still later I discovered other issues that were troubling Hebrew Scholars concerning the evidence for the name "YaHWeH.

The most troubling issue for me is the fact that no extant Hebrew Text preserves the Hebrew spelling "YaHWeH".

Daved

gone_to_pa

09-02-2006, 01:57 AM

jim_buckley
Member
Username: jim_buckley
Post Number: 53
Registered: 8-2006
Posted From: 68.168.169.71
Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 1:35 am:
sidethorn:
Who told you to look for fruits? There's plenty running around downtown Baltimore if your looking for them.
[JB's previous quotes to others]
"This is not the mind of Christ."How is this done outside the Word of God (Doctrine)?

jim_buckley
Member
Username: jim_buckley

Post Number: 94
Registered: 8-2006
Posted From: 68.168.169.71
Posted on Thursday, August 31, 2006 - 8:47 pm:
gone_to_pa
"Haven't we all learned that Finished Work and "know no man after the flesh means" do whatever the snike you want with NO accontibility?"

Not all of us./ WRONG, you have shown otherwise.

Cordell, thanks for inviting JB up my way in PA, but I'm afraid some of my old friends that he refers to as fruits might have a little problem with his attitude and want to send him back to his spiritaul daddy with a tough lesson on name calling. But when your perfect positonally as JB is you can call anyone anything you please. Problem with positional truth is that it ain't always experiencial truth, so while he's getting his pride hurt here on earth, he can tell those fruits, " Hey you can't do that, I'm seated above" " I'm covered in the blood"

Rom 2:1-11 "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God."

Could that mean "fruits too JB?"/ GTP

cordell

09-02-2006, 02:19 AM

I am beginning to doubt the biblical basis for the dispensational concept of "positional truth" (Carl used to call this 'retropositional truth' because plain 'positional truth' was inadequate)--it seems to have no bearing whatsoever on their behavior other than to make them antinomian and to completely avoid ever confronting anyone for sin.

I would invite mr yiminyBUCk to define what he calls "Righteousness"--I would in fact invite any of you who hold to CHS's or Thieme's or Knapp's or to any dispensational viewpoint to DEFINE what you think RIGHTEOUSNESS is--and how you think you became righteous.

At the final judgment--and there is only one--you will either rest on your own righteousness or another's. If you trust to the righteousness of another--what is that 'righteousness'?

cordell

09-02-2006, 02:22 AM

You're a good and honest fellow Cape.

david_munson

09-02-2006, 03:34 PM

Mr.Buckley,
"If we are not fulfilling our responsibility to "examine the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.", and place our faith in the teaching of a man and then find out sometime later "hey, this is not from God, this SOB has been brainwashing me", should my anger fall on the brain washer or should shame fall upon me for allowing myself to be conned?"
---
Should I be angry with the pick pocket that steals my wallet or should I be angry at myself for walking down a crowded street and getting robbed?
After all,It was me that walked down the street,right?

Can you see the deluded logic in what you are stating?
Blame the victim is a GGWO original doctrine.

You should know better than to blame a person who is seeking Christ and gets tricked by a huckster.

The Word puts the blame on the pastor in a seriously direct way.
Jeremiah 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 22:13 Woe unto him that buildeth his house by unrighteousness, and his chambers by wrong; that useth his neighbour's service without wages, and giveth him not for his work;

Dave

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